[19/1/21, 11:41:49 pm] Sam: On relativity and questioning the notion of truth - yup, totally agree - I think truth in the purely logical sense (as a relation between premises and conclusion, not an actual “existence claim” that actually predicates something of _our actual world_) is not relative, but truth in any other bolder sense _is_ - pretty undeniably IMO For instance, I’ve been chatting to a guy off Tinder who’s non-binary (or actually interestingly he doesn’t like the word ‘non-binary’ because it defines itself by a negation – you know, the same distinction as between apophatic and cataphatic theology) He’s currently writing a paper on the Fafafine culture in Samoa, where they observe what essentially corresponds to a third gender between men and women which pretty closely corresponds to trans culture (and in fact since they came into closer contact with western civilisation, that gender/community has partly melded with our notion of trans, and lots of them are now on hormone surgery etc) But what shocks me is that if you talk to lots of people in the U.K. or US — conservative people, or not even conservative but just people with quite a limited/parochial experience of the world — they really think that: (a) gender and sex are the same thing (b) it’s an absolute truth in some sense that there exist men and women, and ‘feminine’ behaviors/roles – like e.g. liking pink and staying at home and wearing ‘feminine’ hairstyles and makeup – are _actually biologically correlated_ with being a biological woman In other words there are people who believe that what’s essentially the Western conception of what it is to be a man or a woman, in the last ~200 years, is actually an innate absolute reality – in spite of the fact that learning even a very very small amount of history, or reading a very small amount of anthropology, would clearly show that that’s not the case And I think it’s shockingly similar if you take e.g. morality or other very relative concepts - people have a wildly inaccurate picture of how ‘absolute’ many of our extremely relative concepts are *Of course* variability doesn’t strictly imply relativity - the truth of the theory of gravity isn’t relative, and yet that’s also historically and culturally one that’s specific to our culture and our historical period AFAIK - but at the same time it’s a pretty good prima facie warning indicator that something might not be an absolute reality [19/1/21, 11:44:22 pm] Sam: Also how are you enjoying the LLB? I did modules out of my uni’s LLB course - jurisprudence in particular I thought was philosophically interesting - but I agree most of it was probably less intrinsically interesting to me than philosophy was My main reason for doing it was that I had a brutal crush on a guy who was on that course 🙈 And funnily enough I ended up living in the same building as him (right now - in fact two floors directly above), sleeping with him, and it was a dead loss! But such is life I suppose [19/1/21, 11:45:59 pm] Sam: I love Huxley and I love the Doors of Perception! You should read his book Island as well - my friend Roman introduced it to me, since he’s a massive Huxley fan (won’t shut up about the fact that Huxley went to his school and how he felt that connected them 😅), and it’s absolutely brilliant and very comforting in a way [19/1/21, 11:46:53 pm] Sam: ^ it’s his optimistic alternative to Brave New World - essentially his vision of the kind of society that could survive and be incorruptible by the forces that are currently corrupting our own, and unsurprisingly it largely centres on education, and in particular a philosophical education [19/1/21, 11:47:02 pm] Sam: Sorry, I really need to stop writing these run-on sentences, I know [19/1/21, 11:49:03 pm] Sam: Also yes I’m in London now - currently at my flat, but I’m about to go back to my parents (their house in London, not Suffolk) because I’m working on a startup idea with a friend and I need to do a few months of head-down undisturbed work ^ and living at my parents’ always seems to put me more in that headspace, as opposed to living here where I’m more distractible But of course if you’re around, I’d love to do something! Where are you based right now? Sorry, I’m afraid that, if you told me where you were at university, I must have forgotten [19/1/21, 11:49:24 pm] Oli: (do not stop writing. I love reading it! Now reading!) [19/1/21, 11:49:28 pm] Sam: In fact I can’t now remember where you’re from altogether? Where did you grow up? I’ve a feeling it wasn’t London, but I can’t remember where it was [19/1/21, 11:49:49 pm] Sam: Haha, glad you do! I’m famous among my friends for sending unbelievably rambling texts ‎[19/1/21, 11:50:10 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [19/1/21, 11:52:49 pm] Oli: Love this!! [19/1/21, 11:52:57 pm] Oli: I am first getting my head around your philosophical treatise in messenger, which I love. [19/1/21, 11:53:54 pm] Sam: Haha, ‘philosophical treatise’, I’ll add that to the list of descriptors that have been applied to my messages! 😁 [19/1/21, 11:54:06 pm] Sam: No rush at all, and no need to subject yourself to all of my messages [20/1/21, 12:12:04 am] Oli: I agree with you that epistemology seems like pure semantics. IT IS I think! It's quite hilarious to talk to a non-philosopher about it as they are always completely flabbergasted. BRILLIANT summary you wrote there of the problem facing ethics in the contemporary era. 100% agree! I love questioning the inherent presuppositions behind such judgements. The trolley problem... bloody hell! And even in contemporary metaethics, some people seem to make implicit appeals to moral values that don't necessarily exist (that's the whole point of the bloody topic, fuckers!). To answer your Q, I quite like J.L. Mackie's error theory about objective/a priori morals. The ball's in our court I think but it's more complicated than that isn't it as I think the zeitgeist/consensus of the time isn't influenced by one person but by what? Hegel or Marx's view here hmm... not sure... I also enjoy A.J. Ayer's boo hoo theory (emotivism)! Amazing how much you've thought about this topic. Very very erudite analysis indeed. [20/1/21, 12:13:36 am] Oli: I like to use epistemology in a nuanced way to try and demonstrate the futility of absolute belief, usually this upsets conservatives, which I do not mind at all (actually, positively encourage). Amazing how their whole worlds blow up once their question begging arguments are destroyed. [20/1/21, 12:13:54 am] Oli: (absolute belief? or arrogance perhaps... let's rephrase that to cocksure certainty) [20/1/21, 12:16:57 am] Oli: I agree with you. Logical truth is good. Science is one of the closest things we have to colloquial TRUTH. Truth is a concept we've created. So one must not just say that truth doesn't exist but that it's a concept to which we all aim in our conduct, as we do. Whether we can attain that concept is another matter. E.g. your wonderful red hair in your photo (!)... is it 'red'... does 'red' exist a priori? Is it TRUE? No! But we aim at some sort of concept when we pinpoint what we identify as satisfying that colour's properties. (colour blind people will have fun - if red is one of the affected colours?) The first part of a funny Irish limerick: There was a young man who said "God Must find it exceedingly odd To think that the tree Should continue to be When there's no one about in the quad." [20/1/21, 12:17:41 am] Oli: I like that point of view re binary/non-binary. Absolutely. Best not to be described by qualities one lacks. [20/1/21, 12:31:13 am] Sam: Thanks for your message about ethics, I really appreciate it! I think you could write a really fascinating essay on that topic and it could be a genuinely important ‘cultural moment’ paper in philosophy. You know how academic philosophy kind of moves in epochs or cycles, normally prompted by some big essay which knocks the pendulum, like Kripke in logic or Williams in ethics. I think academic philosophy urgently needs someone to make the point you’re making! I agree with you that it’s maddening that people make those kinds of claims, even in meta-ethics! It’s preposterous. You go into philosophy being prepared by the outside world to think that philosophers had deeply thought about this, and were going to teach you unintuitive and enlightening truths about morality, and at the end of it you find that they’re basically engaged in practising anthropology! It’s analogous to going into a metaphysics lecture and the professor saying “alright, folks, what stuff do we reckon exists?” 😅 A book or paper beginning with the question “this is absurd, what can do we do that’s more serious and insightful than this?” is one I’d absolutely read, and I’d wager a lot of other people would be keen to read it too [20/1/21, 12:32:53 am] Sam: I think conservatism had a bit of a head injury at some point in the last 15-20 years... Conservatism used to be very ‘oughty’ (something like ‘we intellectuals know that there’s no absolute truth, but certain beliefs, such as that in God and the church, are instrumentally useful in holding society together’) and recently it’s got very ‘truthy’ instead (something like ‘there ARE only two genders’, which, given the semantics of the term ‘gender’, qualifies as ‘not even wrong’ in my reckoning) In other words intelligent conservatives like William Buckley used to describe conservatism as the politics of reality, but, especially looking at the United States, I don’t think anybody could use that description any more without laughing In a way you could say it started off telling noble lies (knowingly!) and ended up raising a new generation of conservatives who _genuinely believe_ those lies - and honestly I don’t know which of those two kinds of people I loathe more 🤷‍♀️ [20/1/21, 12:33:55 am] Sam: It’s no surprise that the new kind of conservative (very much unlike the old one!) hates colleges and any form of higher education, and would rather people be educated in the form of 30-second Facebook videos with animated graphs 😉 [20/1/21, 12:37:29 am] Sam: Yes I agree - a bit like that line “if God didn’t exist, we would have to create him” I think if people realised how, well, aimless and rudderless we are - and the world is - in reality, they would be unable to live, and so we need all of these lies to keep people happy and motivated I’m not saying I find it impossible to live (I actually find it quite liberating, knowing that there’s no ultimate purpose and I’m more or less here to enjoy myself for 80 years or so, like when you try to occupy yourself for an hour at the airport before catching a flight) but I think lots of people find it necessary to have a sense of purpose and absolute ultimate importance to the things they do [20/1/21, 12:38:49 am] Sam: Yes, ze* also had a really fascinating point about trans-ness which I’ll try to find and send to you * Yeah I’m still getting used to the pronoun thing too, but if it’s what someone wants to be called, I’m not going to be a dick about it! [20/1/21, 12:21:11 am] Oli: Very interesting about the third gender in Samoa. The world is a more intricate place than we know (hence no truth...). People don't like their parochial, as you rightly say, worldviews being challenged. Not sure that'll ever change. Do you think? We'll always be tribal: the thinkers and those left behind, usually as a result of their own wilful ignorance. Quite shocking how so many people are victimised as the result of people's own insecurities and very sad indeed. We are very lucky to live in the UK from that perspective, although it's not exactly a rosy place. I used to be more conservative than I am now; I am now a free spirit/thinker as a result of my increased interaction with the world, which is brilliant. [20/1/21, 12:23:46 am] Oli: The LLB is fun. I prefer the philosophy type modules (jurisprudence/constitutional law/etc.) of course! Philosophy gives a good training for assessing arguments and debating principles. I prefer philosophy though LOL. I forgot you did philosophy too? Amazing. [20/1/21, 12:27:47 am] Oli: Huxley is a brilliant man. One of the most erudite thinkers of the 20th century. No wonder people are proud of connections they have to him, and so they should be! He was a friend of my family. I say 'my family', but it's on the female line (which in some 'circles' in England 'doesn't count' 🙃). Anyway, he used to stay at a house owned by a relation near Oxford, who was the doyenne of the Bloomsbury set I suppose. By coincidence, my great-aunt Dinky was born a Huxley and was a cousin to them all. We have some Aldous mementos in the house. Must dig them out in that case! He is an idol of mine. I have heard of Island; must read it in that case! [20/1/21, 12:29:45 am] Oli: There is a brilliant lecture series of his on YouTube when he was in the USA. 'What a piece of work is man', making good use of Hamlet clearly! [20/1/21, 12:32:27 am] Oli: I am at Exeter. Atm am in Exeter too although there's not much point. I have a studio flat here, which is good. There are some others in the building, so there's enough social. [20/1/21, 12:37:06 am] Oli: The subject of where I am from is an interesting and the answer is sure to be convoluted! My family are mostly from Ireland with some 'English' relations mixed in, though no-one believes me because, owing to the nuances of history, we are perceived to be more culturally British than the 'native' Irish. What a muddle! Both northern and southern parts of Ireland - we cover a lot of ground! I grew up between Ireland/Wales and the West Country. My uncle has a farm in Wales, so lived there in a nice cottage for a while. Our home was south of Dublin, secluded, in a rural atmosphere, and there were only so many people we socialised with owing to the mad tribalism of such families. People do not believe that colonial families still exist, but they are still alive and kicking (the dregs anyway)... akin to whites in Africa, so I had an odd upbringing reading books in the library and entertaining the adults who came to visit. [20/1/21, 12:38:35 am] Oli: I was then sent to school in England, prep school, and during such time came home to my grandfather who moved to England in the 60s from Paris (originally a Dubliner) (Wiltshire, though he previously lived in Barnes and raised his family there). All of these hybrid Irish and English families sent their children to school in England or at one of the three or so 'respectable' Protestant and anglicised schools there. What a world! I saw the last of it. I may one day write that into a book too. [20/1/21, 12:39:05 am] Oli: Anyway, following that, owing to my mother's caprice (general madness), I then continued my education in Ulster! Unusual... yes... and subsequently in Dublin! [20/1/21, 12:39:24 am] Sam: Oh god sorry I’ve just got your last few messages in! [20/1/21, 12:39:31 am] Sam: Wait, gimme like 10 mins to finish replying [20/1/21, 12:40:09 am] Oli: I came to live with my grandfather, now 89, who is a writer/sociologist (created himself as one in retirement) towards the end of my education and went to university here! I live with him now when not at university. He is a very intellectual man and it is wonderful to share time with someone who is so enlightened and has seen so much. [20/1/21, 12:40:15 am] Oli: (OK will pause and let you write!) [20/1/21, 12:41:53 am] Sam: I agree - I don’t have a fixed viewpoint and there are things I like and dislike about all ‘sides’ I think anyone who doesn’t feel a *bit* independent has basically turned their brain off For example my flatmate was a convinced socialist/communist, until we watched that Netflix doc about Aaron Swartz and he was so outraged about that act of state violence that he turned - at least substantially more - anarchist I think anyone in that scenario who stuck to their guns and said “well, I’ll have to fit the facts to the theory” would be someone I’d find terrifying in a sense [20/1/21, 12:43:00 am] Sam: Oh interesting, I’ve stayed at a house that that Bloomsbury set stayed at, but if memory serves I think it was in Sussex rather than Oxfordshire! Agreed though, fascinating people and Huxley especially [20/1/21, 12:44:43 am] Sam: Fascinating background! My family is similarly messy and from all over the place - with a lot of funny stories - but I’ll have to tell you in person at some point since it’s too long a story to write down (and especially since you have enough to reply to already! 😅) [20/1/21, 12:45:29 am] Sam: Anyway, I’ll leave it at that for the same reason - I don’t want to keep too many threads of conversation going, or it gets a bit unwieldy! We’re probably a bit overburdened already 😳 [20/1/21, 12:46:08 am] Oli: I do enjoy these various threads. Brilliant. [20/1/21, 12:46:17 am] Oli: The problem is/was I think that it didn't show you as 'online' so it all appeared in a burst! [20/1/21, 12:46:23 am] Oli: Anyway, it's all fine!! [20/1/21, 12:46:38 am] Oli: Now to read :p [20/1/21, 12:47:11 am] Sam: Oh no, I normally switch my phone into airplane mode so I can send replies bit by bit, and not have to worry about people interrupting my train of thought (such as it is) 😜 [20/1/21, 12:47:16 am] Sam: Enjoy! (Sorry!) [20/1/21, 12:47:28 am] Oli: Good idea! [20/1/21, 1:10:37 am] Oli: I would love to write on that actually. Ethics has always been one of my favourite areas. I will have to consider it! We can talk it over perhaps one day! I like Kripke. His 'Naming and Necessity' was a lecture he gave at MIT, wasn't it? A seminal work! I used that for a paper I wrote ages ago! We'll have to think it over, but it is a revolution desperately needed... (I was looking up Aaron Swartz and that mad event, hence why it took so long to send this small reply!) [20/1/21, 1:13:19 am] Oli: Yes, good assessment I think. And some of it I don't even think is genuine conservatism... just advantageous people seeing their time arriving. I am reading Anne Applebaum's 'Twilight of Democracy'. A fascinating insight into this subject. The empowerment of the little man (falsely). What's really happening, she argues, is that the so called counter-elite is basically a dissatisfied branch of the 'elite' (however that is defined) wanting power and not wanting their friends/rivals to be in power. Not sure precisely how explicit that is but it certainly seems an interesting thing to consider. And we've now got in the UK a cabinet of sycophants as the result of the megalomaniac/egomaniac Boris appointing only those who dogmatically agree with every tentative pledge he makes. [20/1/21, 1:15:08 am] Oli: I am often in London as I have so many relations scattered around there and usually stay with them (mostly in Battersea but some in Notting Hill/Edgware area). I love it as there are so many cultural activities and people to meet - this doesn't happen in an isolated rural environment, but that is OK as people come to you! :P A London godmother remarked, quite rightly I thought, on Gavin Williamson being education secretary with a limited education himself. Truly extraordinary. [20/1/21, 1:18:16 am] Oli: I like that. I like Viktor Frankl's logotherapy. A most remarkable man; if you haven't heard of him already then you should look him up and read 'Man's Search for Meaning'. He has many works but that one is a good start. I am a big proponent of his school of thought. We all need a LOGOS. A REASON. Something. Whatever that is. Of course if one's reason is to destroy then that doesn't work with society at large, so, as grandpa argues in his new book (shameless publicity lol but he is on the edge as it's out soon!), one's reason has to be grounded in some form, but there are a lot of seeming potentials, and one of the dangers of wanting to 'ground' it too much is perhaps imposing subjective value systems on others. We have to work out what the limits are. Not sure yet, but I am thinking about it. I love your analogy about catching a flight or occupying oneself before catching a flight. Yes. We are all in a waiting room aren't we and must make the most of it. What a beautiful thought! Liberating as you say and 'make the most of it' = need for meaning/something. [20/1/21, 1:25:19 am] Sam: I’d be happy to talk it over! I’m not much of a philosopher, but I think sometimes it can be useful to talk things through with someone who’s not working in your specific discipline, and can offer an outside perspective. At the very least it can be a useful exercise just to repeat your thoughts out, even if the other person is no use at all responding to them (Google ‘rubber duck debugging’ - we software engineers have come up with a strategy which I really think philosophers would benefit from adopting too!). And yes, Naming and Necessity was given as a lecture and you’re probably right that it was given at MIT (where my sister’s applying, funnily enough, and to do work in roughly the same area of philosophy!) Also, yup, I would absolutely recommend being bold enough to start a revolution! Bernard Williams once said that his main talent was in explaining to moral philosophers things that to ordinary people were already mind-numbingly obvious, which is, well, an easy career if you’re a good enough explainer 😉 [20/1/21, 1:27:56 am] Sam: And yes, re Aaron Swartz, it was a genuinely horrifying case... Raz (my flatmate) and I were just furious and in tears watching the documentary. I highly highly highly recommend it. If you’re not a libertarian or an anarchist or in some way concerned about keeping an eye on the state’s power, you need to watch it. In particular the Computer Misuse Act - which they openly admit is written in such a way that practically anything can be construed as a crime, and so it’s essentially used as arbitrary/discretionary law, to punish anyone they want to punish - should be horrifying to you as a lawyer AND as a philosopher 😕 [20/1/21, 1:37:58 am] Sam: No, you’re right, I’m using the word ‘conservatism’ almost anthropologically to describe the tribe which goes by that self-appointed name. But there’s nothing much ‘conservative’ at all about modern-day popular conservatism. Brexit was not an act of conservation, nor was virtually anything Trump did. It’s much closer to Gramsciite ‘creative destruction’... Also, brilliant choice on Anne Applebaum! I went to a talk of hers once and had a brief back-and-forth — I was disagreeing with her about something, and she was clearly right and I was wrong — and came away thinking she’s clearly immensely smart (and one of those people who has a quite scarily outwardly intelligent ‘bearing’, if you know what I mean) and insightful about politics and history. I was aware she wrote a book recently, and now I’ll definitely pick up a copy! I think it’s a good analysis she has there. Honestly our problem is that wealth and power has become so concentrated in just an INCREDIBLY small number of hands, that the situation isn’t viable at all. You have people like my friends Divy (whose uncle has three houses worth £500m on one road, and many more besides) and Phil (whose holiday house near Monaco his parents paid £150m for) and they live entirely in a sort of bubble in London where neither of them have to be exposed to the fact that this level of hoarding is *shocking* and exorbitant and immoral when you compare it to the number of people starving in the world, and the infinitesimal (in comparison) amount of money it would take to feed and clothe and house them. It’s just... we’re in a situation where the elite are so greedy that they don’t realise that, if only for self-preservation, you can’t push people this far without, honestly, precipitating a revolution. Setting aside the motivations of the ‘dissatisfied counter-elite’ who actually form _part of_ the Trump clique, I think the motivations for his _voters_, who are a very different crowd, are basically sheer desperation. And Trump is a stupid pointless self-harming solution to that desperation. But I find it hard to judge them. It’s like a drowning person spending their energy thrashing instead of keeping themselves afloat - it’s ultimately stupid and suicidal, but, well, who can say what they would do in such a hopeless situation? [20/1/21, 1:20:45 am] Oli: I agree. Anyone who doesn't address someone as they'd wish to be addressed is an arsehole I think. It's all about respect/common decency/humanity. True minds do not take 'sides' emphatically I think, as you say. Dogma is bloody dangerous! [20/1/21, 1:22:09 am] Oli: Yes, this one was called Garsington. I love the Bloomsbury set. The Stracheys/Sitwells were fascinating too, god they all were lol! [20/1/21, 1:22:37 am] Oli: Perhaps it is why we like thinking as it were, having experienced a lot of variety/madness. [20/1/21, 1:23:09 am] Oli: An entertaining read through your thoughts! Dialogue is very good as it allows us all to develop! 🥂 [20/1/21, 1:40:45 am] Sam: Well, let me know when you’re in London and let’s do something! I have no connection to Battersea, but if you’re in Notting Hill then we could have drinks at my friend Phil (aforementioned) ‘s house there - you could do with some friends in London who aren’t that awful crowd you initially got mixed up in 😜 About Gavin Williamson, a hundred times yes. He’s the absolute worst - the epitome of that smug, self-certain, genuinely hateful idiot that’s become such a conservative archetype (depressingly) nowadays [20/1/21, 1:41:24 am] Sam: I like Frankl a lot, definitely! On a somewhat related note, have you ever read the Denial of Death? I think you might find it really interesting [20/1/21, 1:42:39 am] Sam: Yeah, I’m depressed that real people who I know and like have become a wedge issue that people can ‘disagree’ about What kind of ‘disagreement’ is it to be unpleasant to people because you disagree with who they fundamentally are? Anyone who’s dull enough to be convinced that that constitutes some kind of intellectual disagreement would be dull enough to think the same about racism 50 years ago [20/1/21, 1:44:06 am] Sam: Gosh, maybe it is! I think in my case it’s probably that I had a family who placed a lot of emphasis on talking and thinking and self-actualisation above anything else (above on-paper academic achievement, above ‘success’ [the bitch goddess], above money, etc etc) [20/1/21, 2:13:40 am] Oli: This would be good. A most worthwhile conversation. It's very important to chat cross-discipline. My mind is a junk shop of random stuff and needs to be ordered! Rubber duck debugging could benefit us all it seems. We must! Philosophers have a lot to learn, ironically, from others. I love Williams; great mind. Hope your sister gets into MIT in that case. I have downloaded the paper you sent me on messenger and have been looking at it (part of the reason for my inaction just now!). [20/1/21, 2:16:59 am] Oli: I will absolutely watch it. It sounds terrible. I am a quasi-libertarian and believe it highly important to regulate our relationship with the state. That statute (US? or UK? Or active in some form in both countries?) is terrible in that case. Truly horrifying to know that the state can use its powers in such a way. I will be sure to research into it. Will start with the Netflix. I will just search for Aaron Swartz on it. [20/1/21, 2:24:30 am] Oli: I'm jealous that you got to go to a talk by Applebaum! Yes she does seem to be very outwardly intelligent indeed! About the 'conservatives', yes I note that the colloquial use of the term is appropriate and like the use of Gramsci! Interesting figure. I quite agree with you also about the shocking hoarding. I used to think it was silly to think like that as the status quo would unlikely change, but I am now more of your persuasion. It is terrible to see money put to such frivolous use, especially when such a small sum could put problems right. Plus ca change? I wonder, but I am now more on your side, and think we are very near the precipice. Have you read Piketty's latest, Capital and Ideology? It's on my shelf and waiting to be read! Yes, the populists themselves (the supporters I mean) are desperate. I call fascism the loser's creed. We can extend that to populism (many mutual traits between the two ideologies, if you don't believe them to be the same thing anyway)! Though they are not educated and it is not their fault I think, deep down. If one wants to educate people, by which I mean imparting certain pieces of information onto them (which pieces we choose surely is reflective of our moral norms), then how to recognise propaganda should be high on the list of potential topics. [20/1/21, 2:30:03 am] Oli: It will be lovely to have some nice company and stimulating conversation. You are quite right about getting in with the wrong crowd, albeit only a small way. Only my foot was submerged in the bathwater, so to speak; I got out at the RIGHT time, aged 21 (now 23...). Trouble is I had an eccentric upbringing around lots of eccentric (and clever) adults which was quasi-parochial. Quasi in the sense that our house guests negated full parochiality by their being in the world at large. Anyway, I was naive and took people at face value. BAD! These people, with whom I got entangled, in London, were awful. You know the set. Desperate people wanting to use people and live their lives vicariously through them. I was one such person who they willingly used, for whatever... to make themselves seem socially elevated by association with people they perceive to be from certain walks of life (how odd to make an almost, or what should be, meaningless social characteristic someone's salient characteristic - the sign of a superficial person) and of course to take advantage of relatively good looking young men. Nasty indeed. But I am much wiser for it! One idea is to write a book about this nasty world. I have some drafts already, but should develop it properly when I have the time. I like to meet genuine and intellectual people, and I am sure I can reciprocate with some of my own. Most of my friends are older people or those with free minds (a lot of young people tend to have their minds free in the wrong sense!). [20/1/21, 2:30:40 am] Oli: No, but I had looked it up prior to writing all of these responses. FASCINATING. I'll add it to my reading list right now and source a copy. [20/1/21, 2:33:26 am] Oli: Yes it's a step towards fascism. It is fascism, rather. Dehumanising. Sick and twisted people. I used to be tolerant but generally people who voice such opinions are part of the problem. Interestingly, after initiating dialogue with some such people, they've changed their mind or weakened their assertions, which is a good step. We do ultimately need dialogue I believe with enough 'on the fence people'. The dogmatic people will always be a problem and I suppose are really mental canon fodder, sorry to say, waiting to be led, by the one who shouts their requisite platitudes the loudest, or the equivalent Pied Piper of Hamlyn, [20/1/21, 2:35:19 am] Oli: Yes, would love to go over this with you. My family is similar in a way but also slightly dissimilar. I like your spiritual sounding unit. My goals are to become more aware of the greater world around us and my modest role as a part of that - to learn the true value of life and living entities. [20/1/21, 2:35:34 am] Oli: Well, you are certainly a thoughtful person. One of the most enlightening chats I've had in a while! Much valued. [20/1/21, 2:36:09 am] Sam: Sorry, it’s the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act). It seems I got it mixed up with the UK’s equally awful Computer Misuse Act. I think it’s a reflection on how hard it is to legislate on a topic that the legislators simply know nothing about. There are some people - Ron Wyden for instance - who have done a lot of work to educate themselves to the point of being genuinely qualified to speak about the topic, but the general approach seems to be to simply draft laws so vague and broad that prosecutors have the power to arbitrarily prosecute whoever they see fit. Which is not how the rule of law is meant to work, and it’s dispiriting that we let them get away with it... [20/1/21, 2:41:54 am] Sam: I’m glad you agree about the hoarding! It’s very difficult to know what to do about it, though. To be fair, the left doesn’t have any good answers. I find it depressing that they’ve chosen to take to rabble-rousing and oratory rather than any concrete policy solutions. The trouble is that the rich have the money to hire very good lawyers and accountants, and it’s a fact of life that in a world with lots of independent states, nothing can stop one of them from deciding to set up shop as a tax haven, and the UK and US can’t really do anything about that. Nothing stops someone from doing what Divy’s family company does, and creating a Belizean subsidiary which owns all their resources, and having that subsidiary lease all those resources for an amount equivalent to whatever revenue they happened to make that year, the end result being that the main company officially registers no profit because of the cost of the lease - and the real profit goes to the tax haven with 0% (I think) corporation tax. The end result being that, accounting for subsidies etc, their company paid minus 61% effective tax rate this year: https://finbox.com/NYSE:MT/explorer/effect_tax_rate I’m not one for pointless rhetoric, so, well, what can the world do (or the major powers, since you’ll never get EVERY country on board - game theoretically there’s a tragedy of the commons dynamic, where once everyone is on board, it profits one person to quit the consensus and become a tax haven) to fix the situation? I think we have to fix the dynamic which causes the wealth to be accumulated, rather than trying to fix the end result through taxation. And that means enforcing antitrust laws much more than we do, it means not having bottom-up socialism with corporate bailouts when a company (that you’ve allowed to become too big to fail by not enforcing antitrust) isn’t competitive enough to survive a downturn in the market or some natural event like a pandemic, etc etc. Ultimately the first problem we need to fix is regulatory capture, because that’s what makes it impossible to get a government that’s serious and competent and devoted to addressing this issue, rather than just getting these infuriating twerps who don’t care about it (beyond getting themselves elected) and just utter silly platitudes about it that look good on the news... Ultimately, I suspect billionaire-bashing is a gift to billionaires, because it’s a mechanism for catharsis and it means politicians can escape without doing a thing to actually fix the situation [20/1/21, 2:45:25 am] Sam: And I agree with you, the ultimate root cause is education. I think what we’re seeing now with Brexit and Trump is the consequence of abandoning proper publicly funded education in the years of overly zealous free-market-ism (or actually not genuine free markets, but corporate socialism) in the 80s. All those kids are now maturing and you’re seeing an effect similar to the drop in crime 20 years after Roe v Wade, except sadly this time it’s to the opposite effect! We need to fix it and we need to educate people properly, including in philosophy and including in values The issue with Trump and Brexit, I think, is we never educated people in WHY we value things like democracy and truth - we just hammered into them the _conclusions_ of the arguments, like “democracy is important”. And, famously, it takes no justification to argue someone out of a position which it took no justification to argue them into... [20/1/21, 2:47:05 am] Sam: Yes, I recognise what you’re saying about them alighting on you as someone whose presence legitimised their beliefs about themselves. I think I served that purpose as well, in a small way, and my friend Benji (not sure if you met him) certainly was there for that reason too. It’s a sad bunch and I’m glad you’re out of it - and I’m sure you’re glad too! [20/1/21, 2:50:14 am] Sam: Yeah, I agree with you. I think the word fascism is overused, but people slip too easily from that correct belief (‘fascism is thrown around too loosely’) to therefore being primed to conclude that *every single* use of the word is inapposite. And I think this one isn’t - when you’re ‘disagreeing’ with someone’s very existence, then yes, that’s fascism in the truest sense! I can’t believe it really - the dogmatic people tempt others in with social wedge issues like “it’s absurd to have pronouns like ze/zir” (I disagree, but that’s not a terribly dangerous position to take) and then very slipperily end up selling them a position more like “we need to get rid of transgenderism”, which is a _very_ dark path to go down [20/1/21, 2:52:24 am] Sam: Absolutely! I couldn’t agree with that more. I think my principle in life, if I had to actually put it into words, would be something like “have an enjoyable time - _deeply_ enjoyable, not just cheap highs - and help other people to do the same while I’m here” Ultimately it all comes down to enjoyment/happiness, but I think understanding the world and really developing deep knowledge about things are very very good routes to happiness :) [20/1/21, 2:53:22 am] Sam: Absolutely, needless to say I feel the same way! Thanks for a really interesting and enlightening chat - I’d love to get together once lockdown is over, and perhaps you can meet some of my friends in London, since I think you’d get on with them [20/1/21, 3:04:25 am] Oli: Thank you for a lovely chat! Will get back to you properly tomorrow (later today; rather). Now to have a shower and rest before reading some law things tomorrow! All the best in the meantime. 💫🥂 [20/1/21, 3:05:12 am] Sam: Absolutely! Talk to you tomorrow - have a good night 👋 🥂 [20/1/21, 3:05:27 am] Sam: And thank you too for a lovely conversation! [20/1/21, 3:08:26 am] Oli: On a quick sub note, I know Benji all too well... not wanting to gossip or do people down, but I have had my fair share of negativity in that quarter. Quite depressing!! [20/1/21, 3:08:59 am] Oli: A hanger on of the highest order! [20/1/21, 3:09:47 am] Sam: I think Benji is a funny character... I showed my flatmate a video of him making some gaffe about Brexit on the internet, and Raz (who’s very working class and very left-wing) said something to the effect of “aw, bless him, I can tell he’s not a bad one - he just doesn’t mean it at all and he doesn’t really know what he’s talking about”, which ultimately I think described Benji quite well [20/1/21, 3:10:19 am] Sam: I’d agree that he’s definitely, uh, a ‘self-defined’ person - I haven’t had any negativity from him but I guess I can imagine it! What experience did you have? [20/1/21, 3:11:26 am] Oli: That clip is priceless... it is painful to watch. Love your friend’s summary - very perceptive. No negativity directed towards me, but he radiated negativity as I think he was ultimately unhappy, and I didn’t want the negativity to get to me! Negative people in general are bad aren’t they! [20/1/21, 3:14:21 am] Sam: Yeah, I agree with that, I haven’t seen him for a while (so I’m not up to date) but I agree he didn’t have much of a purpose and so I think he tried to carve one out by defining certain things that made one a ‘good’, ‘high-quality’ person, and then tried to establish them in himself by discriminating whether they existed or not in certain other people [20/1/21, 3:14:33 am] Sam: I don’t know if that makes any sense... I’m quite tired 😴 😅 [20/1/21, 3:14:52 am] Sam: Anyway yeah, I should get some sleep, but I’d be interested to hear more about your experience with Nehru tomorrow! [20/1/21, 3:14:56 am] Sam: Benji**! [20/1/21, 3:15:48 am] Oli: That assessment is uncanny-scarily true. Wow. Yes! [20/1/21, 3:16:08 am] Oli: Funny the difference between the two: Nehru and the other. [20/1/21, 3:16:29 am] Oli: Absolutely will give a considered response to your most erudite points tomorrow! [20/1/21, 3:17:09 am] Sam: Haha, your refusal to say his name reminds me of Putin and Navalny: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2017/12/15/putin-snubs-navalnys-name-because-he-doesnt-like-him-kremlin-says-a59964 😅 [20/1/21, 3:17:16 am] Sam: Anyway, sleep well! See ya tomorrow [20/1/21, 3:17:38 am] Oli: 🤣 [20/1/21, 3:17:41 am] Oli: 🙏🙏🌺🥂💫 [20/1/21, 7:28:11 pm] Oli: Was just writing a short story! Hence no reply. [20/1/21, 7:28:24 pm] Oli: I get carried away... haha. I had started then decided to write! [20/1/21, 7:51:59 pm] Sam: Haha, no pressure at all to reply ‘on time’! I just noticed your Facebook post and was wondering: have you ever read Proust? (Absolutely no shame in saying no - everyone means to read Proust but of course it’s hard to find quite enough time...) I only ask because I think his book seems right up your various streets: philosophy, society (of the ‘high’ variety, not in the anthropological sense), art, and psychology, and so so much more. I know In Search of Lost Time has a reputation as a sort of ‘joke book’, like War and Peace, which serves as a cultural touchpoint but which no one _actually_ reads. But I think that’s horribly sad because it’s not dry or pompous at all in the way you might assume. It’s fascinatingly eclectic, and one of the most psychologically insightful and rich books I ever read. Plot-wise I admit it’s one of those books which basically amounts to (as I once saw an Amazon review describe Pride and Prejudice) “people going to people’s houses”. But it’s so so much more than that. Anyway, it’s the second on my list of life experiences I’d most recommend to people (the first being heroin) so if you haven’t, then you - especially you personally - should read it, and I’d be happy to lend or buy you a copy :) [20/1/21, 7:52:21 pm] Sam: Sorry if that message is at all incoherent - I’m writing this in the pouring rain [20/1/21, 10:59:07 pm] Oli: Well! What a great set of messages you've left me to read. Lovely indeed. I didn't realise I had been typing all this time. Just making a Thai green curry so that I have something to provide me with some sustenance at least! Now to the fun bit: to think about all of your thoughts! Sorry, my mind jumps around. Now, I think I am ready to give you a reply that I hope makes some sense. Yes, on the subject of the difficulty of legislation, I wonder whether there is a slight issue regarding the words employed. Though, if we go down this route, we must ask whether it is inevitable that the law will be technical and indeed whether or not it is actually a problem of comprehension in the most basic sense. Perhaps it is actually a problem of technicality, and an unavoidable one at that. If the area is so specific, then surely the norms of that discipline will be adopted by the legislators (or has been). It's one thing to understand what is meant by e.g. (1) xyz and another to understand just how that provision works in the context at hand. So legalese is a problem, I agree, but how to solve it? Though you're absolutely right. It's bloody problematic for the rule of law if it introduces an element of arbitrariness. I enjoyed reading your summary of the problem of hoarding and how we can, if at least try to, solve it. The point about your friend (?)'s family company is most relevant I think. Those with the resources to do so can come out on tops, so it seems to be a never-ending cycle. So I wonder how we do fix the dynamic, as you say, a viewpoint I agree with; we should have learnt by now that, in this context, trying to solve things via taxation is not optimal. Yes, regulatory capture. End the lobbying. I suspect the rot has got into the executive too and is one of the reasons for the fog that seems to cloud our view of it and makes us distrust it. I love your assessment of what we can perhaps call the populist plague or plague of ignorance that has arrived, and I fully agree with you about the importance of reason over platitudes/soundbites. We all say e.g. 'human rights are good' and people, quite naturally, not having been informed why, dismiss that as nonsense, and get annoyed when they are treated as the great unwashed, which they are, but as a result of our own misdoing. It's interesting. I like John Fowles. I have been reading a book of his called 'The Aristos', from the Greek 'best'; it's a collection of all of his ideas made into fragments, emulating the pre-Socratics, e.g. Heraclitis, and some of their successors. One of the points he raises in it is that instead of dismissing someone as immoral when, for example, sentencing them for a crime, the judge should in fact apologise on behalf of the establishment for having failed them. A similar thing is needed here I think. We've got to be careful to choose our words properly, another reason to educate people in logic and thinking I think, as, as you note, misusing words can have a negative consequence on the consensus of the time; we now don't like calling a spade a spade when it genuinely is a spade because people have hitherto often called sporks (or the gardening equivalent, if there is one, ha!) spades. So many conflations we've noted here would be avoided were people marginally more educated. Eddie Izzard was on the radio earlier and said to the interviewer, who messed up his pronouns, that he doesn't hold anyone who is genuinely innocent responsible at the moment as we are still adjusting to it. I half agree with him and half think well there has to come a point when we assert ourselves. I actually wrote an essay on something like that about moral v. factual ignorance. I must find it and summarise the most salient points to you. Though I am not particularly a fan of blaming well meaning people - I hope one day most people, if they don't already, this likelihood increases outside London I think, will accept people as people. I love your life philosophy. Yes, let's do that! No expediency but true enjoyment. We owe it to each other to provide that as self-aware human beings. On the topic of Benji, I think it's best to let sleeping dogs lie; I have no animosity towards him and find that he can be quite reflective at times, though I find his reflection is always within the parameters of the box of negativity that he has created for himself, hence why I distance myself as I really really don't like negative people. It's one thing to try and help someone but to try and help someone who doesn't want to be helped? Well. That's something else entirely. I do not like writing people off though and genuinely, perhaps naively, believe that no-one (though there are clearly limits when it comes to extreme people) is beyond reform. Benji has a good mind when he wants to use it but I think that a sense of entitlement inhibits him from realising his full potential; where that sense of entitlement comes from I am interested in and do not know - a writer friend, who has met the man, and came to similar conclusions as I did re insecurity/social anxiety/etc., pontificated slightly on it, but we did not reach any groundbreaking conclusions. There are some people who are nice people to meet once in a while but who one should not seek out. He's better than some of the others as he does have a grain of truth to some of his behaviour but still he seems to like to apprehend people objectively and deny them their fluidity and gets threatened when people do not conform to his ideas. Who can blame such people though as they are victims of something much greater. How kind that you suggest Proust to be up my various streets. Indeed I am aware of his book and writing style (Proustian syntax seems to be a good phrase, like Ciceronian when describing great orators) but have not yet got a copy nor read it. It would be good to read; we can do a book swap - what a nice idea. I have, however, read, on my grandfather's recommendation, Powell's 'A Dance to the Music of Time', which I think was clearly inspired by In Search of Lost Time. I liked Powell's stuff but found some of it a bit trite. Funnily enough I actually do have War and Peace, a lovely bound version consisting of three separate books, but have not yet read it. When I got it, as an 18th birthday present, I was not mentally prepared to read it; I am slowly working towards reaching a competent state to be able to read it. One day! I have been editing that short story I wrote, getting rid of some typos, etc. I was feeling slightly depressed (as one friend just pointed out though depression is a vague term, convenient but of little use, were his words). Not sure why as I am usually not. I think I have been experiencing a general morass recently. I usually deal with surplus leisure time quite well. I often have existential angst but this recent bout, I'd say a 48 hour bout, was a bit worse, leaving me mentally drained. To counter that I just decided to write. I just started writing. I remembered some experiences in Ireland in the summer (think last summer). Looking at a photo of the study and its view, I brought it to life and the story is an admixture of fiction and reality. All the descriptions are true but some are blended stories from different times. The words flowed and I am now feeling much better. I feel as though something has left me and I am better for it. Does that sound odd? Almost Freudian? Well, it's how I feel! You are right. I enjoy blending my own life experiences into my philosophy, which is essentially optimistic existentialism, I like to think, growing up on the fringes of everything being 'almost not quite'. That was the first time in a while I had sat down to write something. Anyway, sorry for making this all one big long response. Next time I'll condense them! Would love to meet you (and friends) when appropriate. We have much to talk about I am sure. I rather enjoy our correspondence here too; it is nice to talk to people who are switched on at least and are around my age. [21/1/21, 5:04:05 pm] Oli: P.S. some of your fb friends (perhaps rl friends too) have sent me FRs and I have accepted. Just checking with you, though I am sure all is well, because I like to make sure I am not accepting fake profiles. John Linford and Joel Selvadurai. Not sure about Linford, but seems a genuine profile. Joel seems a nice man as has sent a kind message. I had only just found these as have long since stopped instantly checking them! Hope all well [21/1/21, 5:07:47 pm] Sam: Hi, sorry, I’ll reply properly to you in the evening when I have time! Uh, as you might have guessed, those of my Facebook friends who are sending unsolicited friend requests to random people I added are _not_ necessarily people I’m v close with. Joel I think I met through university on one occasion - can’t remember exactly when - and I seem to remember he was sweet enough. John Linford is also basically nice enough, but he has a reputation for being a bit touchy at parties and you can probably make some inferences from that about why he’s probably added you... Sorry about all that! [21/1/21, 5:13:47 pm] Oli: Not at all. I am quite good at keeping people at arm's length if necessary! But good to know! Thank you! All the best. No worries about when to reply as we all have commitments! 👏 ‎[21/1/21, 5:22:21 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[21/1/21, 5:22:21 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [21/1/21, 5:22:42 pm] Sam: I was like ‘right, just gonna check my front door is locked’ [21/1/21, 5:45:23 pm] Oli: Fucking hell! I was laughing at the start when he said he thought he was liable to get blocked. I also found his Friedrich painting profile picture amusing - often the sure sign of a loon. He convinced me that he needs locking up when he went on to talk about Companies House registers. Extraordinary. FB is a lottery as you can find some interesting people and some total loons. That is quite something. [21/1/21, 5:48:22 pm] Sam: Yeah, this is an instance of Sam’s forty-seventh law: _Acknowledging that you’re being [unpleasant personality trait] doesn’t make you somehow less [unpleasant trait], it just makes you someone who’s self-aware about being [unpleasant trait]. Which most often is an aggravating factor._ So, applying Sam’s 47th, I think acknowledging you’re a creep just makes you a self-aware creep, which is even _more_ creepy [21/1/21, 5:51:02 pm] Sam: Also god you’re so right about that Friedrich profile picture! Someone should compile a list of Official Facebook Red Flags! It would have to include: • the famous “if you can’t handle me at my worst...” line [almost always the women] • “University of Life” or “School of Hard Knocks”, which translates as “I’m a ‘contrarian’ with a massive chip on my shoulder, and I’d like to talk to you about my thoughts on tuition fees” etc etc [21/1/21, 5:51:18 pm] Oli: Yes, very creepy, as presumably if one were self-aware about some defect one would want to change it... unless, of course, one is happy about that, aka a total nutter, or just a total nutter... [21/1/21, 5:54:45 pm] Oli: 47 laws... I do wonder what the preceding 46 are. Perhaps there are more than 47? Love the bit about University of Life. Made me laugh! I have seen one person write 'No Such Luck at [public school here]', which I found vaguely amusing. A good book idea... THE RED FLAGS! [21/1/21, 7:53:55 pm] Sam: Exactly - it’s the _being aware of it but indifferent to that fact_ that makes it even worse And sadly 47 was a made-up number for comic effect, though I’m sure I’ve come up with at least that many rules of life in my time 😅 The ‘No Such Luck’ is absolutely inspired, I love it! Yeah it makes me realise I should have mentioned the opposite case: when people have really funny and individual stuff on their pages 👏 [21/1/21, 7:54:01 pm] Sam: Like this guy on Grindr: ‎[21/1/21, 7:54:03 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [21/1/21, 7:56:00 pm] Sam: And the Red Flags would be a great book idea! Have you ever thought about being a columnist? I think that would be quite a good fit for you - being one of those waffling-but-often-insightful broadsheet columnists [21/1/21, 7:57:38 pm] Sam: Though of course you have to have gone to X or Y public school and have a family tree the size of a redwood [21/1/21, 7:58:40 pm] Sam: Come to think of it, I can’t quite recall but it may well be that you’re eligible on both counts 😂 [21/1/21, 8:16:41 pm] Oli: Yes it'd be funny to work out how many rules one has actually come up with! There's bound to be some as observant people always conceive interesting things They are almost certainly aphorisms but nonetheless quite fun pieces of thought with some original insight shown by a different use of words or slight development of the idea. That Grindr cartoon looks like a poster some child created in one of the early forms of Word. I suppose it is! That's sure to get some attention. I have deleted all my apps at the moment but may go back to them eventually... not sure... I like to try and meet people in real life but everything is online nowadays! I have often thought about being a columnist or some sort of journalist and people in the family suggest it from time to time, perhaps forgetting it'd be easier for them with their contacts than for me... and it isn't the done thing to ask these people outright to put one in touch, so it has to be done slowly. Usually they arrange you to meet them at a house party or something. Well... we'll see. Surely same for you. I wonder if you're right about the public schools and family lineage stuff. You may be. It certainly seems that way for certain publications - or at least one has to know the people in question or be known to them, and even that isn't a guarantee, at least for me, so it seems... Perhaps an intellectual type of publication but then I'd have to hone myself even more! If having gone to public school and having a large family tree are necessary and sufficient conditions, then I'd fail, but if they were just sufficient, then I'd pass on account of the family tree. Quite funny. It is a silly and immature thing to say and it is pointless to dwell on the past but some of my relations - my parents in particular - seemed to take too many wrong decisions in life to give me the other one! No smart public school. I had a smart prep school in England and a mishmash of some Irish Protestant schools, some of which very good but not so recognised in England, although some probably are nowadays by knowledgeable people; add into this brief spells of home education (though I had a tutor at one stage who came to the house). All very odd. And living in the middle of nowhere at most times. In a way, it has done me good so far but I don't have the grounding that some people do who have been to x school for a stable period. I think my odd early years have given me a creative/open mind though. So it is a lottery and one wins some and loses some. It's about what we do with it. One can go down the bad route, of Hitler, Stalin, etc. and wanting to seek revenge for childhoods or one can go down the more healthy route of Ghandi, Tolstoy, etc., and create and try to educate. [21/1/21, 8:17:36 pm] Oli: I love the waffling but often insightful description too! A cousin suggested I should write for the Spectator, e.g., but some of those people, whilst having some sort of brainpower, seem to just resign themselves to spouting tropes. [21/1/21, 8:22:03 pm] Oli: Though becoming a columnist can't be that hard if one persists, I think. Either way, interesting idea! [21/1/21, 8:26:30 pm] Oli: I had one bumptious friend who, wanting a job, wrote to someone in a passive aggressive, yet comedic, way, via e-mail, interspersed with various anecdotes about important relations who apparently, at dinner table conversations and the like, inspired them in relation to the particular field (think this was some sort of Sotheby's job), and it worked, so it is possible I suppose! [22/1/21, 4:14:00 pm] Oli: New FB page idea: 'Overheard on Facebook:' This is one I've just come across... quite ridiculous... 'It’s suddenly dawned on me that if Glastonbury’s cancelled that probably means that Ascot is off for another year. 😢' Who gives a f*** about that what is more important is that we can at least have some sort of mental stability! [23/1/21, 2:01:28 pm] Sam: Hey, sorry, I *will* reply soon! I’m just super over-loaded with work right now and I can’t make time to get back to my backlog of messages 😬 [23/1/21, 7:21:26 pm] Oli: That is quite OK! No worries! We all have things to do! 💫 [23/1/21, 8:35:25 pm] Oli: We can also speak on the phone later if you are free maybe! May save your fingers! Anyway doesn’t matter about delays - similar to letters as the subject matter requires thought! [23/1/21, 8:35:28 pm] Oli: 😇 [23/1/21, 8:36:02 pm] Sam: I’m absolutely exhausted but do you maybe fancy a chat tomorrow? 🤙 [23/1/21, 8:36:43 pm] Oli: Yes or Monday! Whichever is best! No worries! 🥂 [24/1/21, 9:14:49 pm] Oli: Just at a dinner party [24/1/21, 9:14:50 pm] Oli: Someone told one of the guests to tell me about ‘Uncle Peter’... surnamed Sutcliffe [24/1/21, 9:14:50 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/1/21, 9:10:03 pm] Oli: ‎Missed voice call [27/1/21, 9:10:21 pm] Oli: Sorry for not touching base; I’ve been away since Sunday. Will try soon! [27/1/21, 9:44:42 pm] Oli: p.s. re-evaluated my perspective on Benji after a long chat with him. He is a much misunderstood individual who needs help reassessing his life and finding a new reason and a genuine person deep down. He had been sidetracked and played up to the wrong crowd but has a great spark of life. It is funny how one learns about people sporadically. [28/1/21, 10:30:57 am] Sam: Aaaargh sorry I’ve been so terrible at replying! I’ve been feeling bad about a guy I was seeing over December (who’s a really good and pure person but is unreasonably torn up about, essentially, knowing that he doesn’t want a relationship - and I don’t feel bad about that but I feel bad that he feels bad about it - oh what a tangled web we weave!) I really agree about Benji. I’d be really glad if he _did_ start reassessing all of that, because he’s a genuinely kind, caring, good-hearted person at root 😇 [28/1/21, 6:36:02 pm] Oli: That is OK! I am sorry to hear that. What a corner this person has thought himself into. Your situation sounds like one of those confusing paintings of a painting within paintings. Not sure what the solutions are to these things but don't think there's any specific formula. I am in the process of composing a letter to him about how to reassess his life but it will take some time on his part! Oh well... I hope you resolve this muddle soon. Remarkable how it persists when he knows you aren't feeling bad. Or perhaps he thinks you're just being polite. People are odd! [29/1/21, 10:51:22 pm] Oli: Are you up? Though just finishing having supper with people in my flat [30/1/21, 7:07:58 am] Sam: I _was_ up - however, judging by how I feel this morning and by my lack of almost any memory of last night, I was almost certainly much too drunk to talk 😅 [30/1/21, 7:08:22 am] Sam: Will reply properly once I’ve had a large breakfast, a jug of water, and a couple of oxycodone lol ‎[30/1/21, 2:23:01 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/1/21, 2:24:48 pm] Sam: As for Benji, has he indicated to you that he does *want* to change his life? If so, that’s huge! I don’t know if you’ve ever dealt with addicts, but they say the first precondition to making a change is admitting you have a problem and resolving to get better [30/1/21, 2:20:37 pm] Oli: To be honest: we have essentially transcended the old conversation and started a new one! 🤣 [30/1/21, 2:20:45 pm] Oli: We need not be prisoners to it! [30/1/21, 2:25:48 pm] Sam: Haha, yeah I think we basically have, haven’t we? That’s always a problem with hyper-long conversations - the dread of having to reply just mounts and mounts 🙈 [30/1/21, 2:27:26 pm] Sam: But yeah, I’m really pleased to hear about Benji - both that you’ve finally understood him properly and fairly (which not enough people do - my dad once iced him out completely at one of my parents’ Christmas parties, just because he didn’t see any deeper than the surface, I suppose) *and* that he’s prepared to drop the frivolous posho act and genuinely just be the nice person who’s hiding inside [30/1/21, 2:38:34 pm] Oli: That man seems very hard to deal with. Wow. I am not sure what's the best thing to do with such people: leave them to their own devices or spend ages trying to help them? Maybe that's a false dichotomy but it seems that those are the only two realistic options to me. [30/1/21, 2:43:58 pm] Oli: Yes, tentatively, which is a good step. Reflecting on it, he did it about two years ago but now that things have hit home moreso (the lockdown I think playing a major role in showing him who his friends are as the lockdown caused the B/C list party scene cafe society set dissipate). He was wondering would he ever find someone to settle down with, etc. I basically told him that he's done his life the other way up. Most people seem to have periods of long toil before relative success and enjoyment and he's done it the wrong way around, which isn't necessarily a bad thing as it gives each person a different experience of life and indeed in his case and the case of others who have done it his way it can give you an immediately richer view of the world, but one has to be prepared to deal with the consequences as they come. By that I mean to have a strong will. I don't think he does as he was unsure about what to do now. I basically said it's a sort of mid-life crisis (the sound of which he didn't like, but who does?) mixed with a need for a more broader existential reckoning as a result of his life having been created in an unorthodox way, which, as I reiterate, isn't necessarily a bad thing. Anyway, I said to him that all of that conversation was just the preamble and that we have more work to do to work out his point and how he can proceed. He said he liked the sound of the 'we' element and liked the idea that he could be helped, so that is a good first step, as you say. I told him that I would be annoyed if he reverted back to 'normal' after this and after asking for help! But it has to be worked out first. [30/1/21, 2:44:50 pm] Oli: Yes, I agree. Easier with letter writing I think! :P ‎[30/1/21, 2:49:57 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/1/21, 2:54:18 pm] Sam: Oh, I’m saying what I’m saying in a spirit of real fondness, not anger! Truth be told I still have an extremely severe crush on him - I think he’s one of the most beautiful people I’ve met, let alone been romantically involved with - and he’s also a deeply good and kind person. Just also troubled at the same time. As for what to do, he *is* undergoing therapy, but I have a feeling that he could do with a better therapist. I can’t quite see what caused it though - often when someone has a mindset like that, it comes down to having had a really difficult and traumatic childhood, but he actually grew up in a stable home with really loving parents, went to a good (private) school, etc. I’m hard pressed to see what could explain it, other than something purely genetic and innate. And I’m considerably harder pressed to see what could _fix_ it 😕 ‎[30/1/21, 2:56:30 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/1/21, 3:01:41 pm] Sam: Is B/C _before COVID_? If so, lol! Also I agree with your point about the slightly Benjamin Button like nature of Benji’s life! There’s a line from Catullus I always come back to after breakups and the like - otium tibi molestum est, leisure is troublesome for you [i.e. me; he’s addressing himself] - and I think Benji’s life of *extreme* leisure, where he essentially really does just about nothing, must be really disordering for him. The other thing I think is really on point in your message is the “if he reverted back to normal” caveat - because I warn you, this is a recurring issue for Benji. He’ll often decide to make some big change - like when he decided to learn to drive, and spent so long nattering away on the phone to my sweet old cockney driving instructor that she was absolutely stupefied, but didn’t end up actually taking any lessons! He does sometimes like the feeling (I think) of resolving to make a change, but has no impetus to follow through with it. But this sounds positive and I do really hope you try to help all the same! [30/1/21, 2:50:10 pm] Oli: Yes it is not easy to understand such people though unless one makes an effort to switch their paradigm and talk to them about other stuff - or indeed even to make their paradigm more useful to them and others. Not surprised about your father doing that and many have done the same. He is a great social observer - or could be - but his frames of reference are flawed insofar as he attributes everything to a very narrow and trite taxonomy. He loves history, particularly 20th century 'political' history and esoteric general knowledge of that period. He could put the two together and make some very useful contributions to history. Instead he engages in quasi-folk psychology as he analyses the various parties he's attended, which he isn't to blame for as that's all he has been involved with for a while, and it was not all bad, I'm sure. I think that is a starting point for helping him. But it is not good to try to help someone who does not want to be helped, so I am tentative too but I do very much value him as a person deep down, having tried to work him out now after I spoke to you. I first met him when I was 17 and he was interesting because he was such an enigma [30/1/21, 2:51:44 pm] Oli: You seem to be someone that people lean on too. It is a funny position to be in isn't it. I don't mind it if the other person is actually willing to listen/change. [30/1/21, 3:03:47 pm] Sam: Yes, he is a great social observer, and yes he is very fixated on some lost Eden (garden, not Anthony), an idealised historical period which he over-identifies with – which is an odd flaw that surprisingly many people have, for some reason which is totally beyond me! [30/1/21, 3:04:42 pm] Sam: He’s an extremely extremely Proustian character, in his frivolousness and his interest in going to parties and psychoanalysing (in a very very loose sense of that word) the people he knows and interacts with [30/1/21, 3:05:17 pm] Sam: He’s actually pretty like me in that respect - and hey, I mean we’re both doing it right now [30/1/21, 3:06:48 pm] Sam: Also, I’m really glad that what I said prompted you to try to understand him properly! And yes I think I do have some quality which seems to draw people to me, to lean on me, and I have no idea what that quality is or how I can get rid of it 😜 [30/1/21, 3:14:43 pm] Oli: Seems like she is high on something! Covid seems to have flipped my times around, so maybe it's done the same for her and 2.50pm is the new evening! [30/1/21, 3:18:12 pm] Oli: Yes, there are lots of people who have these problems I think. Animal instincts? We are odd when it comes to such feelings and whilst we know they are irrational (or want them to be) we can't do much about them! I think one of the problem with most therapists is that they are essentially myopic. People need culturally grounded therapists, but there don't seem to be enough of them going round! I think you are on to something on the childhood point. One of the books I have on the go at the moment is 'They F*ck You Up' by a man called Oliver James. He is a nice man. He was somewhat of a Benji figure in his youth, so one of his friends told me (hence why I bought the book as they introduced me to him!), but relatively more culturally grounded and stable, and has since become a relatively successful writer on psychological matters. That may explain some of your lover/friend's trauma! I am on the second chapter still. [30/1/21, 3:19:01 pm] Oli: BTW James is very sceptical re genetic explanations, though doesn't disbelieve them entirely. Interesting ideas. [30/1/21, 3:20:28 pm] Oli: V interesting! Doesn't share feelings about life. Isn't in the world so to speak. Is in some other world. We all are at times. I often am and in my case it seems to be a cultural thing as many of my relations are, but I am also in the present as I enjoy meeting people and working out the world in present terms (or trying to). That is a very good test. I like that. I will try that on myself and others too! [30/1/21, 3:21:37 pm] Oli: I like the point about unwittingly surgically exercising his own emotions from the conversation entirely. Yes, it seems that he's relying on your dicta to keep it going as he can't take ownership. [30/1/21, 3:25:02 pm] Oli: B/C is my attempt at being bitchy (B-list/C-list parties lol), but I also like the Before Covid element. I did not know about Catullus or his quote on leisure. That is interesting. Otium was important to a lot of Romans but it was important because it was a juxtaposition. DARK AND LIGHT - of that type. Otium was to be fully appreciated as the contrast to work. Otherwise what was/IS the point? As I said to Benji about the good or idea of good things... 'all good things come to an end hence why they are good I think. They punctuate our lives. Not that we can't have thoroughly good lives doing the same thing living in say a villa in Egypt but it's a special type of good that is ephemeral!' - this was a late night message but you get the idea. I get that about the recurring issue for him. I was unaware that he was using your driving instructor. Did he ever use your instructor? Or did he use another? He claims that he's been unable to carry on with it due to Covid. The impetus point is one of his main problems. Akrasia. Weakness of the will. How do we solve that? This is an important Q. Baby steps? But how? [30/1/21, 3:25:21 pm] Oli: Perhaps fixated on both Edens! 🤣 [30/1/21, 3:25:51 pm] Oli: Yes which can be quite tiring, perhaps because, as I claim, his taxonomical frame of reference is so subjectively skewed. [30/1/21, 3:26:12 pm] Oli: Yes! I think the difference is he frames things (in speech and I THINK in his mind) moreso as absolutes than we do. [30/1/21, 3:26:45 pm] Oli: He said, for example, how can 'I' change? I made a point about the transcendental I... the ephemeral nature of personal identity. He didn't get that and retorted to some point that didn't exist. I said to stop creating and finishing my sentences before I have created and finished them! [30/1/21, 3:26:56 pm] Oli: But... baby steps... if he can accept the need to change! [30/1/21, 3:31:58 pm] Sam: Yup, I agree! I think part of the problem is that people don’t talk about their emotions. And I don’t mean ‘talk about their emotions’ in the sense people usually mean when they say that, which approximates to something like ‘admit their unhappiness’ (which is not really, or barely, actually talking about your emotions anyway), but more like ‘talk about their patterns of thought and how they arrive at their feelings from plain old outside reality’. I think the Stoics were right - people often treat emotions as objective realities in something like the way that Mackie says we treat moral facts as some odd kind of objective realities. Like “of course I shouted at her, she cheated on me and so I was angry!”. And I think the more you do that, the more you lose your power to realise that all of those emotions are mediated by your beliefs and habits and patterns of thought, and there’s nothing stopping you from reacting in totally different ways. I think even just _the act of discussing_ how you ‘generate’ your emotions often liberates people from some of their unhealthier emotional tendencies! And that’s probably part of the deal with therapy. In software engineering we have this idea of ‘rubber duck debugging’, where you can often figure out what’s causing a bug by explaining your code to someone else, and it doesn’t really matter what the other person does in that interaction - the idea is that even explaining it to a rubber duck would do the job equally well. And I suspect a lot of therapists essentially function as rubber ducks, and if it were socially acceptable to talk to a brick wall about your emotions, then that would be equally .... cathartic, or insightful, or whatever you want to call it [30/1/21, 3:35:45 pm] Sam: My dad’s a psychotherapist so I’m pretty familiar with the psychodynamic theories about the influence of childhood, and I believe in them totally. It’s a difficult field to turn into a science, not because it’s subjective or fraudulent per se but because it’s very hard to quantify and measure things in practice. But I think even though it’s hard to turn into a science, it’s still very insightful sometimes. Case in point: my dad was amused when COVID started and people hoarded toilet paper before anything else, because of course Freud would have classified hoarding as an anal retentive personality trait, and so (on Freud’s theory about anal retention as the early childhood genesis of those traits) it makes perfect sense that it’s toilet paper which they’re most concerned about controlling and guaranteeing their supply of... [30/1/21, 3:36:15 pm] Sam: Btw, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the Larkin poem that the title of your book is from, but if you’re not then you should absolutely give it a read! Great poem and 100% true [30/1/21, 3:39:45 pm] Sam: I agree and I think I’m the same... On the point about it being a good test, there’s a great personality test (or not test per se, but an insightful process) a family friend developed for his PhD. You’re meant to play it with someone else with whom you have a lot of friends - or family or whatever else - in common. You pick three people and the other person has to say who the odd one out is, and on what ground (e.g. A and B are emotionally open and C is not). Then repeat that a handful of times, writing down the answers, and at the end you read through all the ‘axes’ (I mean the plural of axis, not axe) that they divided people up along. It often reveals a hell of a lot about how people see the world! [30/1/21, 3:49:57 pm] Sam: I agree about the ‘all good things’ message - it’s essentially like having Christmas every day. Some things derive their value from their scarcity/novelty, I suppose! I’m not sure about the driving instructor - I’m pretty sure he never used Karen (my instructor) in the end, but I don’t know if he *did* use anyone else. I doubt it, knowing him! I think akrasia hits the nail on the head with Benji - I’m sure that having a friend to encourage him will make a big difference though. I’ll try to play a bigger part in his life too. The thing is to make the good/sane people like us a more powerful influence on him than Eoghain Murphy and all the other awful cast of characters (the Columbine-in-waiting students, the haggis-faced 37-year-old teenagers whose proudest accomplishment was going 20 years ago to some Cambridge college so shitty it’s halfway down the M11, etc) orbiting in his enormous gravitational field... [30/1/21, 3:52:02 pm] Sam: I think that’s a really nice way of thinking about it, on your part, and also a very Benji way of thinking about it on his part! I hadn’t thought of putting it that exact way, but you’re right, he does have (and this is a very English middle-class peculiarity) an extremely fixed sense of his own personal identity, where even relatively small changes to his personality seem as wild and identity-eroding as a zebra turning into an aubergine [30/1/21, 3:54:16 pm] Sam: I think it’s partly that Benji does have a very ‘performative’ identity - it’s mostly about impressing other people to feel a particular way about him, so he’s tried to make his personality so simple that you could write it all out on a post-it note with a board marker - but that’s not _actually_ him, and he needs to realise that there’s another deeper fixed personality (which is one I really like) beneath the surface-level one which he really unhealthily identifies as his source of self [30/1/21, 3:54:53 pm] Sam: If any of that makes any sense... I feel like I’m getting puffier and puffier here with the things I’m saying, and eventually I’m going to just float away 🤪 ‎[30/1/21, 3:59:08 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/1/21, 3:59:50 pm] Sam: Wait, do you know my friend Roman or not? I think he’s a mutual friend of ours on FB IIRC, but can’t quite recall whether you know him properly or not [30/1/21, 4:00:29 pm] Sam: If not, then it’s probably a bit opaque to you why it doesn’t surprise me at all to find loads of heroin in about every item of clothing he owns [30/1/21, 4:10:11 pm] Oli: Very prescient point. It's very hard, I think, to get an objective (or as-close-to-objective-as-possible) sense of ourselves though to be able to do that, but I think it should be everyone's aim, as it ultimately enables us to work better in the world (it goes without saying, really). What I mean when I say 'objective' is not, as Mackie points out with morality (I love error theory!), fixed and static but as free-from-our-own-subjective-and-ill-informed-perceptions-of-self-as-possible (Nicholas Soames, eat your heart out...). Rubber ducking in this sense insofar as one can have a sense of how one usually tends to work emotionally and the therapist can set you right? Wonder how hard it is to change one's pattern of behaviour, as that is what some people we're talking about require. [30/1/21, 4:12:03 pm] Oli: I understand what you're saying here totally. It is hard to come up with a formula for because ultimately everyone is different - but it is insightful. I like that quote, 'sometimes, Mr Freud, a cigar is just a cigar'. Some had tried to analyse the items hoarded in terms of cleanliness in general - disinfectant was one of them too. Freud would have a field day! [30/1/21, 4:12:18 pm] Oli: Yes, it's published in full at the start of the book and rings true. I must re-read it now! [30/1/21, 4:12:46 pm] Oli: We should do that test. I like the sound of it. People revealing the way they view things. Should do it with Benji too of all people! [30/1/21, 4:14:18 pm] Oli: Yes, as we tend to take things for granted. We could have a 'good' life doing something lovely in Tuscany forever but whilst it would be 'good' it wouldn't be a more 'higher' form of 'good' as it isn't a rarity punctuating our norm. Perhaps this is disproven by neuroscience etc. One of the problems of philosophy etc. is that a lot is essentially just half-right speculation, but I enjoy it to a point! [30/1/21, 4:17:11 pm] Oli: You're quite right about the need to get him away from those awful people, but I am unsure about the extent to which he will comply. He does try and see what he sees as the 'good' in everyone. I'm not sure if this is genuine or just an unreflective attempt to justify his situation. I think it is perhaps, to be optimistic, him trying to see the 'good' in everyone, but that doesn't always work as other qualities can outweigh their minute good tendencies. I love your quote about Oxbridge (though it's usually Cantab in these sycophants case. I wonder why?). I don't think it's as great a thing to have gone there as some think. Of course it's not bad and I'm not trying to justify my own lack of having not gone there but, I think, especially nowadays, a certain type of person goes to these increasingly-academic-esque institutions (of course they were never for thickos but you see my point) and is bereft in some other form, which they can sometimes rectify in later life but sometimes not. [30/1/21, 4:20:21 pm] Sam: Yeah, I think that’s a good way of thinking about the objectivity of it... And yeah, rubber ducking in that context is probably a good tool for emotional insight and introspection, but probably less so for changing behaviour. But then again, true and proper introspection is often sufficient to change your behaviour (e.g. realising you’re a terrible husband is the biggest step to stopping being one - in a sense, to realise it _is_ to change it, to some extent) [30/1/21, 4:21:42 pm] Sam: Yup, my dad loves to repeat that line about a cigar sometimes being just a cigar! Haha - it’s important not to *overanalyse* everything, I suppose. And that’s probably part of the skill of a good psychoanalyst/psychotherapist - distinguishing the signal from the noise [30/1/21, 4:22:47 pm] Sam: I’d be up for it tonight if you fancied! I have a bit of work to do at some point but other than that I’m at a bit of a loose end and wouldn’t mind having a glass of wine and playing a game over FaceTime or whatever else [30/1/21, 4:25:24 pm] Sam: Oh yes, have you read about the idea of the hedonic treadmill? My friend Divy is about to go and live in Europe for a couple of years because he needs to be non-domiciled in the U.K. for 48 months to avoid tax on a £100-200m (not sure the exact amount) windfall from his family, and he’s moping about it currently - and it’s hard to resist the temptation to say “you’re _complaining_ about being essentially paid about half of £100-200m to take a two year holiday!?” But all happiness is relative to your own personal baseline, I guess [30/1/21, 4:30:27 pm] Sam: Yeah, that actually hits on a really interesting point, which I always thought was true of Damien too (I can’t recall if you know Damien) - both of them are kind and charitable to a fault, even when they’re confronted with someone genuinely awful who even I (as someone who tries to love and understand everyone - my favourite compliment I’ve ever been paid was my friend Phil saying I reminded him of Prince Myshkin) would draw the line at. I do think it’s a hundred percent genuine in both of them - and a very large part of what I love about them, but in this case it’s frustrating because it would be much much better for them to just say “ok, the point of being charitable and loving is to try to understand everyone, but it’s an unfortunate fact that some people can’t just be ‘understanded into goodness’, so to speak” [30/1/21, 4:36:45 pm] Sam: As for Cambridge and Oxford, I think there are lots of normal and nice people who go there - my grandparents were fellows at the university so I spent a lot of my childhood in Cambridge & have a soft spot for it - but there are definitely also people who have an unhealthy relationship with some idealised concept of the universities and what it means about you that you’ve gone there And I think one of the main symptoms with those people is that it dominates their life for decades after - they’ll still go to parties and talk about their days at university 20 years ago instead of any of the rest of their life since. Cyril Connolly had a great line about Eton, of which the same thing is true (it’s the bane of my life with Roman - the only thing he loves more than heroin is bloody Eton): “early laurels weigh like less, and of most of the boys I knew at Eton, I can say that their lives are over” And I think it’s that “my life ended when I turned 21” thing that accounts for a lot of the sense of stuntedness about some of the people we’re thinking of - well, I don’t know, does that ring true at all to you? Maybe you were thinking of something different [30/1/21, 4:18:42 pm] Oli: You might be right about the socioeconomic influence. The English certainly are an odd lot but perhaps you've narrowed it down even further. I wonder. Certainly I'd agree that those who seem to have an exaggerated sense of personal identity tend to emanate from myopic surroundings. He didn't get my point about personal identity (I don't think) but I will work out how to build up to it and make it in such a way that it slowly sinks in. Often, when confronted with something as radical as that, to the uninitiated, the default response is to switch off! [30/1/21, 4:19:41 pm] Oli: I believe that everything is a performance though. The Romans were great with their idea of a 'dramatis personae', but it's what that performance is that really matters and clearly there is a genuine, eternal bit of us that influences all of these things, and I think, maybe naively but optimistically, that we can all influence other people's eternal bits! [30/1/21, 4:19:46 pm] Oli: I love it! [30/1/21, 4:20:06 pm] Oli: At best cinnamon and at worst... 😈... though maybe it's the other way around? 😇🤣 [30/1/21, 4:22:10 pm] Oli: I don't think so, coming to think about it. Facebook suggests people whom one may know and I am sometimes liberal in how I react to that! In his case, I was, for a time, convinced that I had actually met him at a friend's birthday party in Shepherd's Bush (Ed Whalley) some years ago now, but now I think I have conflated him with some other entity and haven't actually. Either way, social media is an odd world. [30/1/21, 4:22:49 pm] Oli: Well, I can deduce that he is or is seen to be an habitual substance user... not necessarily a bad thing. [30/1/21, 4:23:25 pm] Oli: Oh, that's another thing about Benji: he is disparaging of those who do drugs etc. I think one of the problems is, though he may have some point, he does not like, for whatever reason, other people perceiving the world in other ways. He has a great problem with subjectivity I think. [30/1/21, 4:23:33 pm] Oli: Well, the world is a funny place after all. [30/1/21, 4:38:01 pm] Sam: I normally need to be bought dinner before allowing people to influence my eternal bits 😜 But seriously, yes, I think that’s a really interesting way of putting it [30/1/21, 4:38:17 pm] Sam: Finest Afghan #3 cinnamon 😂 [30/1/21, 4:38:57 pm] Sam: Ah, fair enough - yes, if you knew Roman, you wouldn’t be in any doubt about it at all haha [30/1/21, 4:39:56 pm] Sam: That’s funny, he must’ve changed! I actually remembered him having a very nice attitude about it with me (though maybe not so with others who don’t do them) - he once said to me that he didn’t believe in doing drugs, but got me a nice plate to do them on, and asked if there was anything else I needed [30/1/21, 4:55:04 pm] Sam: One more thing, to be fair to Benji, is that when it comes to heroin – and I say this as a great fan and connoisseur of the stuff – I don’t think the ‘perceiving the world differently’ argument can 100% honestly be applied to it... I think drugs like ketamine, ibogaine, acid etc can give you genuinely mind-opening experiences, but in all honesty the point of heroin is more or less just to have a nice time. A bit like MDMA but without the comedown or any of the adverse effects (except occasionally death!). I wouldn’t blame anyone for drawing the line at heroin - pun not intended haha [30/1/21, 4:55:51 pm] Sam: I think when I knew Benji it was mostly coke I was doing, which in hindsight is a terrible waste of time and money and cardiac health - just an appallingly rubbish drug [30/1/21, 4:56:53 pm] Sam: (My current regimen is nothing most of the time, and oxycodone once a week maximum with a couple of drinks - I’ve spent a long time honing my substance abuse strategy and this is categorically worlds better than any other approach) [30/1/21, 5:09:38 pm] Oli: I like the idea that correct introspection can change one's behaviour, but what about those suffering from a severe bout of akrasia? 'One never does wrong knowingly,' said Socrates. I said that was wrong due to akrasia... ‎[30/1/21, 5:11:43 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/1/21, 5:12:01 pm] Sam: Sorry, I won’t interrupt you - will reply once you’ve replied to my messages [30/1/21, 5:12:26 pm] Oli: Yes the balance is important. I also love the one of Emmy von N or Elizabeth von R who, having claimed of rheumatic pain, stood up when her brother-in-law audibly entered the building. Her pain returned. 'Ah, you fancy your brother-in-law,' proclaimed Freud. Well, what about the simple fact that she'd just changed posture? Or another one in which Freud analysed someone's dream about going up and down the stairs in a sexual nature. 'The way of climbing stairs, a long journey up followed by a small pause and panting, is akin to sex' or something was how he analysed it. Well... crocodiles have four legs as do elephants... This is all from Richard Webster's book 'Why Freud Was Wrong'. I used that for an essay I wrote on Freud's problem: overinvestment in his method. I must read it properly and also read Peter Gray (or Gay?)'s biography of Freud. [30/1/21, 5:12:28 pm] Sam: (Assuming you’re going to - don’t feel the need to send a message-by-message response!!) [30/1/21, 5:12:39 pm] Oli: Oh no I will reply! I love it!!! Yes... then I'll get to them all! [30/1/21, 5:13:40 pm] Oli: Sounds a good plan. I have only gin in my flat now, so I will have a gin and tonic... sounds fun! I have a bit to do too but it would be lovely to do that. [30/1/21, 5:15:25 pm] Oli: I love the sound of his problem. We have a non-dom friend, grandpa's friend, who does similar things though he's on a far less exalted level than your friend, whose problem sounds positively delightful! Just looked up the hedonic treadmill. Fascinating and it sums up exactly what I'm saying here. [30/1/21, 5:16:37 pm] Oli: (just a quick note, aside, in case you are wondering why I am always going on about my grandpa. I was raised by him essentially as both of my parents are extreme versions of people without a reason, though paradoxically that is in a way their reason. Grandpa is 89/90 in May and is a writer, having retired, his new book is out soon. You could read it and see what you think!) [30/1/21, 5:18:59 pm] Oli: I know Damien. I've known him since I was 17/18. Not sure how old he is now, but that would have been in around 2015 when I first met him. He was living in Clerkenwell then. I met him through Murphy and Hagger. I love Hagger; he is a brilliant man and very interesting. He used to come and stay with me when I was a student in Cardiff and was never predatory or anything of the sort but just a kind man. Of course he likes pretty young men, don't we all, but there is more to him. He is a great human. I last saw Damien in Feb of 2020 I think for supper. Eo Murphy was there but we weren't talking to him and were in our own corner with another friend, a recently retired professor, who has his own problems but isn't pernicious like the others. You're right. He sees the good in people too much like Benji too. [30/1/21, 5:25:49 pm] Oli: Cyril Connolly was a fascinating character; an Irishman too. I love the duality of identity he has in his writing... I have similar themes! He is quite right about people's live ending at 21. I used to feel like that too and then realised what a ridiculous idea it was. You're right of course: lots of sound people at Oxbridge, but there's a particular Brideshead LARP wing who are very unpleasant (and of course their backgrounds couldn't be further removed from their fantasies... the internet has made these people's frauds even more hard to sustain as information is readily available). People who do not create/are not original seem to hold onto such ephemera. On the subject of public schools, I find it bad form to ham up one's credentials to such an extent. It really is not the done thing. But perhaps this is because from my own immediate background, grandfather, parents to an extent, and the immediate cousins and great-uncles and aunts etc., being quasi-Irish, public schools were only a small part of the package and the main dividing line was/is our contradictory sense of Englishness in relation to the rest of the community. In other words, it is a small community there and people, who have all either gone to public schools or have been brought up in an enclave of such, all fit in and do not necessarily talk about it as much. Maybe it is the same for certain sorts of people in England. I suppose nowadays many public schools are not what they were and are now far more academic whilst retaining a certain timeless hold on people's imaginations and it is this contradiction that makes them hard to deal with for 21st century people so they can deal with it in varying ways, and one of those ways is I suppose to play up to it. Who knows! [30/1/21, 5:26:24 pm] Sam: Cool cool! When are you around? [30/1/21, 5:28:08 pm] Sam: Oh, on the whole _exalted_ point, I should say that I do realise how absurdly privileged my friends Phil and Divy are (whenever I mention either of them in my anecdotes). I know it’s an extremely uncommon position to be in - I think it’s just normalised for me to some extent because I’m used to them as two of my best friends, but obviously I myself will likely never see that kind of money in my lifetime, and it’s not at all normal to me. Haha, I’m remembering when we were on the way back from my parents’ Suffolk house last November, and were chatting about Divy’s grandpa possibly having caught COVID - and he says “well it’s sure to come eventually but I hope it doesn’t come now - though on the other hand he _has_ left me £500m in a trust in Bermuda!”. At which the family in front of us in the line at Burger King in the Birchanger Green service station turns around and gives us a long quizzical look, presumably thinking we were absolutely delusional lunatics 😂 which I suppose it must’ve seemed to any ordinary person we were [30/1/21, 5:28:23 pm] Sam: Ah! I *had* wondered about that! I was just assuming you had a very very close relationship like some people do with their grandparents. This makes much more sense though. I’d love to read his book, too - what’s it called? [30/1/21, 5:33:31 pm] Sam: Oh I’m glad you know Damien, and I’m so glad you like Edward - you’re a good judge of character! Edward is one of my litmus tests, almost. It’s very easy to think he looks a bit like a sleazy old pest at first blush, but he’s actually not and he’s one of the loveliest people I have the total privilege to know. An absolute preux chevalier through and through 💙 Damien too is one of my favourite people. I think he can seem a bit shallow to some people, but he’s a fantastically sweet and lovely human being through and through. He has quite incredible problems with money, though. I think his partner Tim was about to reduce his monthly pocket money from £15k to £10k, and he was genuinely terrified of it. It’s not an act at all - he’s seriously almost addicted to living with an incredibly high disposable income by any standards. When I stayed at his flat for a while, he ordered us both coffee every morning from Deliveroo (like, Damien you have a coffee machine!!) and watered his plants with Fiji water... My friend Divy - who’s also hugely fond of Damien - has been giving him budgeting advice, which probably gives you a sense of the scale of Damien’s spending problems... ‎[30/1/21, 5:34:57 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/1/21, 5:36:43 pm] Sam: ^ that’s part of the reason I introduced Damien to Divy - like what I was suggesting with Benji, I’ve been trying to help him build a group of friends who are actually nice people, and not malignant limpets like some of the Eoghain Murphy crowd that he’s hung out with in the past [30/1/21, 5:37:28 pm] Sam: Seeing Damien hanging around with those dreadful people always puts me in mind of that line from Gatsby - “you’re better than the whole damn bunch of them put together!” [30/1/21, 5:45:28 pm] Sam: I couldn’t put it better myself - I always referred to them as the Brideshead brigade. But these are people who don’t realise Brideshead is a tragedy (e.g. I’ve always jokingly referred to my friend Roman as Sebastian, since he’s also unhappy and addicted, but also pure and kind and good) and look up to it somehow as - again - some lost idyll. I don’t understand how that kind of crowd can so totally miss the point of that book - or in fact take from it the literal _opposite_ of the message... As for public schools, yes I think it’s broadly the same for people like my family in England. Though I went to a private school and not a proper public school, and on reflection I think I’m quite relieved about that! You’re right to say that they aren’t what they were. Roman always makes that point about Eton - that people assume it’s full of people like Boris Johnson (and in fact a bit like Roman, who’s very close to the archetype except for being a kind and good person), but it’s actually mostly kids from abroad and especially Asia, and it’s also much more about academics than it is about social class or status - I think 50 years ago the story was probably quite different! That said, Roman is a bit uncomfortable on some level about having gone there, so I think he probably does play down the snobbishness / elitism of the place a bit just to fit in [30/1/21, 5:27:27 pm] Oli: I realised the hilarity of that statement once I made it but thought I'd see how you reacted for the fun of it. Though I am glad you see the serious side! [30/1/21, 5:28:50 pm] Oli: yes I had confused him with a +1 another similar sounding character to him had brought along. I was quite drunk, to the extent that I started doing some sort of odd naked dance... but it sounds as though I have got the wrong person! [30/1/21, 5:28:58 pm] Oli: Such characters are readily memorable I can imagine. [30/1/21, 5:31:22 pm] Oli: I am not sure. I think he tolerates a lot of stuff but thinks about it disparagingly. Like us all I suppose! I use the 'perceiving the world differently' phrase in a silly, colloquial way and not at all as it should be. I lump all drugs into the category of artificially stimulating the body in some way (though perhaps it's not as simple as that and it actually just switches on already present but dormant stimulants so it's the difference between sentience and a process). And I think that's how his mind works insofar as he dismisses all 'drug users'. [30/1/21, 5:31:40 pm] Oli: Never done it but seen people doing it and it doesn't look that fun! [30/1/21, 5:32:20 pm] Oli: Sounds a tame regime! It is good to have control over these things ultimately I think, though I know little about it all. [30/1/21, 5:34:09 pm] Oli: lol! An envoy from the PRC unsure about red wine... [30/1/21, 5:34:23 pm] Oli: So you are now terrified as a result of Netflix?! 🙃 [30/1/21, 5:47:04 pm] Sam: Funnily enough when my grandpa was briefly a management consultant, one of his clients was a declining old public school, and his recommendation to them was to double their fees - which they did, and not only did they make more per student (of course), but also the actual number of applications _went up_, because it enhanced the perceived status [30/1/21, 5:47:39 pm] Sam: Haha, no I think it was a perfectly nice and whimsical way to put it 😅 [30/1/21, 5:48:56 pm] Sam: Oh well I mean he is my best friend, so that’s probably part of it, but even so I don’t think anyone who met Roman could forget him or mistake him for someone else 😂 [30/1/21, 5:49:23 pm] Sam: Aside from anything else he’s fully like 6’6” tall [30/1/21, 5:50:24 pm] Sam: Oh I take your point - I read that as ‘mind expanding’ in a strict way, but I guess you meant more like ‘mind altering’ drugs in the Buddhist sense, just anything that temporarily changes your cast of mind [30/1/21, 5:52:12 pm] Sam: If you ever _were_ interested in the exact mechanism of action, you should talk to Roman about it - he’s a phenomenally clever biochemist and it’s fascinating to hear him explain how these drugs work (even my flatmate Raz, who hates Roman, grudgingly admitted the other day that ‘to be fair, he _does_ know his shit’) [30/1/21, 5:52:44 pm] Sam: Yeah, I think that’s a smart decision to be honest! [30/1/21, 5:53:56 pm] Sam: Definitely - all things in moderation, including moderation itself 😉 If you ever want to experiment, I can point you in the right direction and make sure you’re doing it safely, but if you have no desire to do it, and are happy enough and life interesting enough without them, then that’s probably a good thing and I wouldn’t change that! ‎[30/1/21, 5:54:56 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/1/21, 5:55:10 pm] Sam: Embarrassingly yes, haha [30/1/21, 5:55:40 pm] Sam: Anyway let’s curtail this incredibly long and increasingly multifarious conversation 😵 When are you around to have a virtual G&T? [30/1/21, 5:56:20 pm] Oli: Yes I'll read all of your points and we can address them in person! [30/1/21, 5:56:29 pm] Oli: Am around any time today. So it's more when's best for you. [30/1/21, 5:56:40 pm] Oli: I have an odd brain I think I have some form of ADD. [30/1/21, 5:56:43 pm] Sam: I’m around in like 10-15 mins if that suits? [30/1/21, 5:56:45 pm] Oli: So I just do my work when I am in the mood! [30/1/21, 5:56:49 pm] Oli: Yes, that would work! [30/1/21, 5:56:50 pm] Sam: Likewise - well, that and Asperger’s [30/1/21, 5:56:56 pm] Sam: Since you’re friends with me you probably have Asperger’s too [30/1/21, 5:57:01 pm] Oli: Maybe why we get on. I think I have it but undiagnosed. [30/1/21, 5:57:15 pm] Sam: Statistically, being friends with me is incredibly predictive of having Asperger’s [30/1/21, 5:57:18 pm] Oli: On the subject of Damien's allowance quickly... wow... [30/1/21, 5:57:44 pm] Sam: Ha, wow at what aspect? The allowance itself or the mindset? (I’m not faulting damien for it, it just astounds me) [30/1/21, 5:57:46 pm] Oli: I thought I was 'privileged' coming from my sort of mad county background with falling apart houses... and my comparatively meagre allowance... what he gets a month a year basically... [30/1/21, 5:57:49 pm] Oli: Quite remarkable... [30/1/21, 5:57:51 pm] Oli: The mindset! [30/1/21, 5:57:59 pm] Oli: And the amount! [30/1/21, 5:58:05 pm] Sam: Yes I absolutely agree [30/1/21, 5:58:18 pm] Oli: Though I am quite naiive when it comes to other people's finances and I am not a good judge of it. Perhaps that's a good thing. [30/1/21, 5:58:20 pm] Sam: And especially that it’s so wild that _Divy_ of all people is giving him advice on how to budget [30/1/21, 5:58:35 pm] Oli: Yes, those two friends of yours sound out of this world. Extraordinary that these people exist but such is life. [30/1/21, 5:58:39 pm] Oli: !! [30/1/21, 5:59:13 pm] Sam: I’m really glad I introduced them, actually, because they get along so well and are clearly really fond of each other - but it says a lot about Damien that he has so much common cause with someone who has that much money.... like, it’s just insane how lavishly he spends [30/1/21, 5:59:40 pm] Sam: You mean Phil and Divy? Or Damien and Divy? Damien is obviously the odd one out in not being _actually_ rich [30/1/21, 5:59:44 pm] Oli: I am really shocked but not shocked if that makes sense. [30/1/21, 5:59:48 pm] Oli: Phil and Divy! [30/1/21, 5:59:50 pm] Sam: Well, you know what I mean - not actually stupendously rich, I mean [30/1/21, 6:00:10 pm] Oli: Yes! When I knew him better he had not had Tim so was still very much in the orbit of the others, now he's on the periphery. [30/1/21, 6:00:13 pm] Sam: Oh right, yeah! Tell me about it - they’re equally aware of how fortunate they are, to be fair to them [30/1/21, 6:00:13 pm] Oli: I have only met him once or twice post Tim! ‎[30/1/21, 6:00:49 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/1/21, 6:01:11 pm] Sam: ^ talking about going to my parents’ house in Suffolk, a simple 90 minute train journey from London [30/1/21, 6:01:42 pm] Oli: His own driver? [30/1/21, 6:01:44 pm] Sam: Ah, fair enough! Have you met Tim? He’s genuinely a lovely lovely guy, which is not necessarily what you’d expect when you hear “rich older guy and young guy” [30/1/21, 6:01:51 pm] Oli: Never met Tim! But Hagger speaks well of him [30/1/21, 6:02:22 pm] Sam: Yup! Lovely guy but I was like Phil, Jesus Christ, get the fucking train and don’t force Tony to drive you two hours there and then back on his own... [30/1/21, 6:02:51 pm] Sam: Yeah, he’s lovely! And to be fair to damien, he’s not what he sounds - he _is_ genuinely attracted to older guys, and he does genuinely love Tim very much [30/1/21, 6:03:06 pm] Oli: This is extraordinary. These people are the new order of things. Well, life is like that. [30/1/21, 6:03:31 pm] Oli: Yes, I can see that with Damien. I was in the similar boat but seldom physically attracted to older men but moreso attracted to their minds, which is an odd one, as people misinterpret it. [30/1/21, 6:03:41 pm] Sam: Yeah, I mean, they’re both lovely people and dear friends, but it takes a bit of getting used to [30/1/21, 6:04:06 pm] Sam: Yeah, I had the same thing - had a year-long FWB relationship with an 82 year old guy when I was 15-16 [30/1/21, 6:04:40 pm] Oli: I used to think that all of our friends/network were those people. We used to go from one house to another and all of them would complain about having no cash despite having lots of acreage. Now I know how wrong I really am! That the people I know and who make up my own little opaque unit are really ghosts and your people are the new world. Quite a nice plot for a story actually. [30/1/21, 6:04:41 pm] Sam: He was a lovely person with a fascinating life (I mean, _could and did write a book about it_ level of fascinating) [30/1/21, 6:05:01 pm] Oli: You are a modern day Evelyn Waugh, minus the snobbery but in the sense of observing these people! [30/1/21, 6:05:23 pm] Oli: yES!!! I love that [30/1/21, 6:06:02 pm] Sam: You’ve absolutely hit the nail on the head when it comes to that crowd... I always thought, I think partly due to having known the ‘genuine article’, that it was amazing that this was a group of people who thought that they were the 1% - and I would just think to myself, wow, you really do not even know what that means [30/1/21, 6:06:36 pm] Sam: The other difference of course is that Phil and Divy are nice normal people who aren’t grimly obsessed with wealth and status like EoMu et al [30/1/21, 6:06:41 pm] Oli: Love this - just catching up on your messages before I reveal myself as the 90 year old catfish... [30/1/21, 6:06:54 pm] Oli: 😉 [30/1/21, 6:07:00 pm] Sam: Haha, brilliant! 🤪 [30/1/21, 6:07:10 pm] Sam: Anyway gimme 5 mins and then let’s have a virtual drink! [30/1/21, 6:07:18 pm] Sam: Just gonna quickly get changed and unpack my shopping etc [30/1/21, 6:07:29 pm] Oli: Yes 5-10 mins is good! See you soon... ‎[30/1/21, 6:13:34 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[30/1/21, 6:13:34 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[30/1/21, 6:13:35 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[30/1/21, 6:13:35 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[30/1/21, 6:13:36 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/1/21, 6:14:19 pm] Sam: It’s just very odd... I don’t know where he gets it, because he’s such a sweet person but he has such a crazy unhealthy attitude to the concept of being rich vs being poor [30/1/21, 6:14:41 pm] Sam: Wait, sorry, it’s really only the start of that conversation now I read it more closely [30/1/21, 6:17:07 pm] Oli: bloody hell [30/1/21, 6:17:14 pm] Oli: I wasn't aware it was so mad with Damien's money obsession [30/1/21, 6:17:40 pm] Sam: Yeah it’s quite sad - it really gets in his way I think [30/1/21, 6:17:42 pm] Oli: I have found him superficial at times and that is explainable by his background as people like that from Belfast do tend to want to escape and make it [30/1/21, 6:17:51 pm] Sam: Yeah that’s true [30/1/21, 6:17:58 pm] Sam: Lots to say on that point - I’ll call you in 1 min [30/1/21, 6:18:07 pm] Sam: What do you prefer? FaceTime? Something else? I’m easy [30/1/21, 6:18:32 pm] Oli: Which platform? FaceTime could work do you have my appleid [30/1/21, 6:19:42 pm] Oli: will just make g and t [30/1/21, 6:20:02 pm] Sam: Yeah, which platform is what I meant 👍 Let me know your Apple ID if FaceTime is what you prefer :) [30/1/21, 6:20:09 pm] Sam: Also omg lol wait a sec [30/1/21, 6:20:17 pm] Oli: oliver.wilson168@gmail.com is my apple ID I think [30/1/21, 6:20:19 pm] Sam: On the point about no one ever leaving Eton [30/1/21, 6:20:22 pm] Oli: For some reason it is my e-mail [30/1/21, 6:20:28 pm] Oli: 😀 [30/1/21, 6:20:42 pm] Oli: Lol! [30/1/21, 6:20:44 pm] Oli: Madness. ‎[30/1/21, 6:20:50 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/1/21, 6:20:50 pm] Oli: People have an unhealthy obsession with that school. [30/1/21, 6:21:08 pm] Oli: 😀😀🤯 [30/1/21, 6:21:14 pm] Sam: Yupppp, Eton people are as bad in that respect as Oxbridge people [30/1/21, 6:21:15 pm] Oli: I'm amazed they let you keep those e-mails! [30/1/21, 6:21:22 pm] Oli: My grandpa isn't even a member of what they call the OE association... [30/1/21, 6:21:28 pm] Oli: Some people really do exaggerate it!! [30/1/21, 6:21:42 pm] Sam: I don’t think you necessarily need an active email, but he’d probably be screwed if he needed to reset his password I guess [30/1/21, 6:21:55 pm] Oli: That's quite funny. He'd be a good character in a book [30/1/21, 6:22:01 pm] Sam: Yup hahaha [30/1/21, 6:22:08 pm] Sam: Well Roman did seem to have a great time there [30/1/21, 6:22:11 pm] Sam: Mostly in the dorms.... [30/1/21, 6:22:32 pm] Oli: Really? I'm amazed! [30/1/21, 6:22:45 pm] Sam: Yuuuuup [30/1/21, 6:22:45 pm] Oli: I wonder to what extent it was rugger bugger lads or genuine stuff [30/1/21, 6:22:52 pm] Sam: I think it was a mix of both [30/1/21, 6:23:12 pm] Sam: Lots of the people who publicly teased him for being gay would be knocking on his door at night apparently [30/1/21, 6:23:31 pm] Sam: But then I think he had some guys he genuinely liked too [30/1/21, 6:23:33 pm] Oli: I think this is probably true! Lots of repressed 'omos... [30/1/21, 6:23:37 pm] Sam: Anyway yeah, what’s your Apple ID? [30/1/21, 6:23:49 pm] Sam: Yup, and quite badly repressed at that! [30/1/21, 6:24:12 pm] Oli: oliver.wilson168@gmail.com! [30/1/21, 6:24:14 pm] Oli: My e-mail... lol! [30/1/21, 6:24:25 pm] Sam: Awesome! Will try to figure out how to do it now [30/1/21, 6:24:31 pm] Sam: May take me a moment to create a contact etc [30/1/21, 6:24:45 pm] Oli: I think you just plug it into your contacts and ring! [30/1/21, 6:33:35 pm] Sam: http://old.theexonian.com/2011/02/24/exeter-life/senior_spotlight_isaac_lederman [30/1/21, 7:05:16 pm] Sam: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2638/2638-h/2638-h.htm [30/1/21, 7:05:47 pm] Sam: “Yes, Nicolai Andreevitch—that was his name,” and the young fellow looked earnestly and with curiosity at the all-knowing gentleman with the red nose. This sort of character is met with pretty frequently in a certain class. They are people who know everyone—that is, they know where a man is employed, what his salary is, whom he knows, whom he married, what money his wife had, who are his cousins, and second cousins, etc., etc. These men generally have about a hundred pounds a year to live on, and they spend their whole time and talents in the amassing of this style of knowledge, which they reduce—or raise—to the standard of a science. ‎[30/1/21, 7:13:36 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[30/1/21, 7:19:19 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[30/1/21, 7:19:19 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/1/21, 7:35:59 pm] Sam: https://twitter.com/AbFabQuotes/status/59331144935673857 [30/1/21, 7:45:08 pm] Sam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-QNAwUdHUQ [30/1/21, 7:45:55 pm] Sam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWPwlMv8lNI ‎[30/1/21, 8:08:14 pm] Sam: ‎video omitted ‎[30/1/21, 8:08:48 pm] Sam: ‎video omitted ‎[30/1/21, 8:09:32 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/1/21, 8:31:36 pm] Sam: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/bryan-singers-accusers-speak-out/580462/ [30/1/21, 9:07:53 pm] Oli: Just reading up on all of this! [30/1/21, 9:08:16 pm] Sam: Enjoy! Sorry, I’ll be like 5-10 mins :) [30/1/21, 9:08:36 pm] Oli: That is OK. A funny call of two halves! xx [30/1/21, 9:31:02 pm] Sam: Sorry, I’m almost ready! [30/1/21, 9:31:05 pm] Sam: And glad you enjoyed it [30/1/21, 9:31:14 pm] Oli: That's OK!! [30/1/21, 10:11:39 pm] Sam: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5554521/Oxford-student-posh-jailed-finds-love-wealthy-son-1-2bn-Russian-tycoon.html [30/1/21, 10:20:55 pm] Oli: Fascinating machinations! [30/1/21, 10:21:02 pm] Oli: We can continue soon! 😇 [30/1/21, 10:21:41 pm] Oli: Ruminations rather* 🤣 the gins finally got to me [30/1/21, 10:22:28 pm] Sam: LOL, I was wondering what you were getting at there! [30/1/21, 10:22:42 pm] Oli: That can be for next time! [30/1/21, 10:22:48 pm] Sam: But yeah, really nice to catch up properly! And much much easier than those long text exchanges [30/1/21, 10:22:57 pm] Sam: Ha, looking forward 😅 [30/1/21, 10:23:17 pm] Sam: I’m still horrified at the eoghain murphy related mental imagery btw [30/1/21, 10:23:22 pm] Sam: Scarring [30/1/21, 10:25:50 pm] Oli: Yes rather awful. Glad I am free from that set of people... really soul destroying! [30/1/21, 10:26:11 pm] Oli: Yes there is something much more personable about video callings! [31/1/21, 6:37:38 am] Sam: Jesus Christ, sorry, I was majorly out of it yesterday - think I might have still been drunk from the night before, and I’m feeling very grossed out that I actually did some of that heroin... Not my finest hour, lol [31/1/21, 2:31:55 pm] Oli: Not at all; you were on very good form and we had a lovely and entertaining conversation, which is even more to your credit if you were suffering from leftover alcohol! The heroin was funny! [31/1/21, 2:33:55 pm] Oli: We had two hours and a half of solid conversation, so it must have been good, to try and speak ‘objectively’ (a concept which we can aim towards but which is unattainable!)! [31/1/21, 2:56:24 pm] Sam: Oh fantastic! Well, I'm glad to hear I wasn't too terrible 😁 I'll try to get a hold of that card game for next time (the one with the shockingly probing questions), because it's the best game I've ever played for getting to know someone - though admittedly some people find it much too probing (Guy Griffin straight up refused to play any more cards after the first 2 or 3) [31/1/21, 3:20:07 pm] Oli: Sounds fun! I always wonder why some people do not like probing Qs. Perhaps they are not comfortable with themselves in relation to the world (though they wouldn't like it to be phrased in that way!)! [31/1/21, 3:45:56 pm] Sam: Are you familiar with Maslow’s concept of self-actualisation? By way of explanation, there’s a line in the Great Gatsby (second time I’ve quoted to you from that book in as many days!) where Fitzgerald says of Gatsby something a bit like: ‘he seemed to spring from his own Platonic conception of himself’. And that’s essentially how I understand what it means to be self-actualised. The idea is that you’ve satisfied your base animal needs (hunger, sex, shelter, etc), and you’re now enacting your conception of who you are / have decided to be, and what you want your life to be. Someone who spends their life doing missionary work is probably a good example of self-actualisation, provided they’re doing it for genuinely exalted reasons and not out of peer pressure or anything like that. Anyway, the point I’m trying to get at is that I think people who are *not* self-actualised – who aren’t necessarily at peace with the person they are, or happy with the life they’re living – are probably the people who aren’t keen on answering probing questions, because they’re afraid they won’t have an answer, or that the answer that occurs to them will be v uncomfortable or distressing. I don’t know what you make of that explanation though? (Btw I’m not saying I’m successfully self-actualised - I think I’m somewhere in between, but it’s an ideal that I definitely aspire to) [31/1/21, 11:47:41 pm] Oli: Yes, this is a very interesting point! I know about Maslow's theory. Well, rather knew about the hierarchy of needs and have now read more specifically about his theory of self-actualisation! It makes sense. One can only try and think about such things when the rest is satisfied, but I think it slightly misframes the point. The point is not to search for self-actualisation but to do something that results in self-actualisation. That is how Viktor Frankl put it too. Our search for meaning... self-actualisation is a result. Here's an 11 minute bit where he discusses this. The title is misleading but there we are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL8DyVusLeE [31/1/21, 11:49:50 pm] Oli: People who are not at peace with who they are (though I do wonder who we are? But I think it is right to suggest that we can have a meaning and that our shifting personal identities can change with that meaning and vice versa) do not like the idea of revealing things about them? Yes that could be. I was thinking that I do not necessarily mind because I do not believe x or y to BE ME. It is a part of me but it is not the essence of me, if you see what I am saying. We are constantly changing and our raison d'être should reflect that. I agree with you too and I'm in the same boat when it comes to aspiring to an ideal. [1/2/21, 12:00:42 am] Sam: Thanks for the reply! Give me ten mins to brush my teeth etc and then I can have a proper look, and respond to you :) [1/2/21, 12:03:47 am] Oli: That’s Ok. It was slightly delayed as I was making a PowerPoint for presentation on the doctrine of unconscionability (for Wed)! 💫 [1/2/21, 12:42:20 am] Sam: I don’t think Maslow (or I) would cast it as _searching for / aiming at self-actualisation_ - probably something more like _living in harmony with your self_. Which is separate from specifically aiming yourself at self-actualisation, but is also a bit more intentional than simply taking potshots at life-meaning! I’ll watch that Victor Frankl clip tomorrow morning with my breakfast - I feel like it’s a bit too late for clips right now somehow - but I’m looking forward! He was certainly an interesting character Also in reply to your very last message: I think it’s not so much discomfort _revealing_ things about themselves, so much as it’s discomfort actually _questioning and discovering_ things about themselves in the process. And yes, the difference between my ‘essential’ properties (kindness - I’d like to think - etc) and my contingent properties (liking coffee, and whatever else) may be less apparent to people who haven’t interrogated themselves quite so much [1/2/21, 11:12:03 pm] Oli: That sounds about right and I think that's very close to - if not what - Frankl would advocate (not sure whether or not you've had the time to see the clip yet; don't worry if not). Yes, you seem right yet again for the most part. There may be cases where some are uncomfortable about revealing what they know about themselves, although this does sound counter-intuitive because if one really knows oneself truly then why be uncomfortable? Perhaps that's just how I'd feel, or maybe the people in question don't properly know themselves as they can't handle revealing such information. Still, I wonder to what extent information can help us get to *know* the person rather than just a bit of that person as I do believe that there is something irreducible about all people. Perhaps it just gets us closer to building up a colloquial picture? I do agree in spirit though that it perhaps gets us closer to *knowing* the person at that time, t, and for as long as they remain identical/similar to the person that they were at t. I like essential v contingent properties. Can we shift our essential properties, do you think, or are we stuck with them (or stuck with whatever it is about us that's irreducible, if that even exists?)? As presumably you weren't born kind (unless that is a thing, though I'm sure some people have tried to claim it, I remain sceptical; also sceptical of the reverse). Perhaps we have an irreducible spark about us and then we have properties that we shape, of which there are two kinds: quasi-essential properties and necessarily contingent properties. The names of these two can be edited of course and it's important not to get bogged down in semantics, but essentially (lol!) there are properties, of the type we contrive, that are ESSENTIAL to us as we exist in harmony with the self we like and properties necessarily contingent to that self but that somehow make us, maybe that irreducible spark(?) satisfied (oh god that'll be a fun tangent...). [3/2/21, 9:00:24 pm] Oli: Grandpa has been on radio all day discussing the book! [3/2/21, 9:00:33 pm] Oli: Posted to Facebook. Quite hilarious and a nice refresh from the world... [3/2/21, 9:01:00 pm] Oli: 🤣😇 [6/2/21, 1:47:24 am] Oli: Also on the subject of friends in common: who is Ben Oliver? He added a while ago. Maybe another one. He seems nice enough. [6/2/21, 1:49:13 am] Sam: You luckily caught me thirty seconds before falling asleep! I met him once at a generic party at someone’s flat in Covent Garden, drunkenly made out with him, and then saw him maybe once in the last 4-5 years. But I’m still friends with him on Facebook and I’m extremely glad I am, because he posts some of the funniest stuff I ever see on there! 😀 [6/2/21, 1:56:10 am] Oli: Oh good. Yes his content seems worthwhile. Thank you! Just doing an 'audit' lol! All the best. Sleep well. 😇 [6/2/21, 1:58:18 am] Sam: Yes, Ben is not just someone to keep on Facebook, but he’s a reason to keep Facebook in and of itself, I think! Hope you sleep well too 😴 [6/2/21, 1:59:01 am] Oli: Well, that's certainly a strong reference... one of the strongest I've heard in a while! [6/2/21, 11:40:29 am] Sam: Ha, I say this out loud to my flatmate whenever I see one of Ben’s posts 😅 I sometimes think that, if you could charge people for access to your Facebook, his is one of the very few that I’d actually subscribe to! [6/2/21, 3:47:51 pm] Oli: Yes there are some people like that aren’t there that make the whole project worthwhile - I get what you’re saying! Have you seen this Handforth Parish Council thing? It’s childish and silly but it has me laughing. There are so many memes and videos now. [7/2/21, 6:02:50 am] Oli: ‎Missed voice call [7/2/21, 6:03:03 am] Oli: Good morning. Maybe you aren’t up yet!! [7/2/21, 6:03:15 am] Oli: People are so lazy nowadays in the modern world [7/2/21, 6:03:33 am] Oli: Says I - having been up for ages since yesterday [7/2/21, 6:14:00 am] Sam: Oops, no, sorry, I was writing a rare Facebook rant 😜 [7/2/21, 6:14:20 am] Sam: I’ve actually been up all night writing code and am thoroughly wired on Red Bull - eventually I’ll collapse into a heap I’m sure [7/2/21, 6:14:32 am] Sam: (and yes I do actually literally mean Red Bull!) [7/2/21, 6:14:48 am] Sam: (... ie that’s not a stand-in for anything less licit) [7/2/21, 6:26:11 am] Oli: Am hoping all. If it too [7/2/21, 6:26:14 am] Oli: Air [7/2/21, 6:26:22 am] Oli: Sorry am pissed and was up all night too [7/2/21, 6:26:43 am] Sam: Haha, who are you drinking with? [7/2/21, 6:26:45 am] Oli: Was trying to pretend I wasn’t and was hoping you’d just woken up as a bastion only respectability [7/2/21, 6:26:53 am] Oli: Bastion of respectability* [7/2/21, 6:26:54 am] Sam: Hahaha brilliant! [7/2/21, 6:27:01 am] Oli: F** auto correction [7/2/21, 6:27:31 am] Oli: Have been drinking with friends in my building [7/2/21, 6:27:40 am] Oli: From about 8pm till now [7/2/21, 6:27:50 am] Oli: So it’s going to be a nice return to earth [7/2/21, 6:27:53 am] Oli: 🤣 [7/2/21, 6:28:06 am] Sam: Hahah, this is what valium is for [7/2/21, 6:28:11 am] Sam: Sadly I’m assuming you don’t have any ‎[7/2/21, 6:28:31 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/2/21, 6:28:42 am] Sam: In which case my only advice is drink lots of water (the best time is always earlier, the second best time is always now) and take a couple of ibuprofen before bed ‎[7/2/21, 6:28:48 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/2/21, 6:28:57 am] Sam: But not too many because NSAIDs fuck up your liver already and are even worse with alcohol - it’s a trade off [7/2/21, 6:29:06 am] Sam: Also, can’t listen now but can listen in like 10-15 mins ! ‎[7/2/21, 6:29:49 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/2/21, 6:29:55 am] Oli: Don’t worry [7/2/21, 6:29:56 am] Oli: Whenever [7/2/21, 6:30:01 am] Oli: It’s I’m just a summary [7/2/21, 6:30:05 am] Oli: It’s just a summary [7/2/21, 6:30:12 am] Oli: Of the evening [7/2/21, 6:30:25 am] Oli: 🤣😈 [7/2/21, 6:30:29 am] Sam: Ha, will let you know when I’ve had a mo to listen! [7/2/21, 6:30:38 am] Sam: Hope you guys are enjoying yourselves 😅 [7/2/21, 6:31:01 am] Oli: I’m just testing dictation app from my phone [7/2/21, 6:31:13 am] Sam: I don’t recommend becoming a drug addict, but I do recommend the strategic use of certain drugs to make your life a lot less painful, *especially* when drinking heavily [7/2/21, 6:31:13 am] Oli: So all of this is dictated mentally and verbally whenever the fuck I am so yeah we’ve been drinking lots tonight it’s quite funny [7/2/21, 6:31:26 am] Oli: And I am you know we’re just finished a can’t member I saw the drinking at 8 pm I have now finished whatever the time is [7/2/21, 6:31:29 am] Sam: I think drinking is the worst, most painful and damaging way to get high, on its own [7/2/21, 6:31:39 am] Oli: Sorry to seem so illiterate but this is a dictation and I think the iPhones are shit in this regard [7/2/21, 6:31:42 am] Sam: Hahaha yes you do seem quite posed [7/2/21, 6:31:44 am] Sam: Pissed* [7/2/21, 6:32:11 am] Oli: I think you’re quite right these drugs alleviate all these mad sections we seem to suffer from [7/2/21, 6:32:21 am] Oli: I love this I’m actually I’m actually speaking into this phone and it’s it’s writing out the stuff I’m saying God is in this world is the world [7/2/21, 6:32:45 am] Sam: 😂😂 [7/2/21, 6:32:48 am] Oli: Sorry what is this why doesn’t it work properly are gods holy rubbish and I had thought that you were in the same boat is as I did it but I said I thought okay got the right email let’s just pretend not and I was hoping you’d actually working up at a normal time i.e. 6 am and then I was the only guy who hadn’t and that you thought I would’ve done said to [7/2/21, 6:32:54 am] Sam: Hope you’re enjoying your audience with God [7/2/21, 6:33:15 am] Oli: Sorry this bloody dictation is absolutely ridiculous [7/2/21, 6:33:17 am] Sam: Hopefully God knows what you’re trying to say there, because I certainly don’t, lol [7/2/21, 6:33:25 am] Oli: I had thought you’d woken up at 6am [7/2/21, 6:33:43 am] Oli: But non - saw boat as in [7/2/21, 6:33:47 am] Sam: Oh right, nope, I’ve been up very soberly writing code I’m afraid! [7/2/21, 6:33:53 am] Sam: Boat? Haha [7/2/21, 6:34:20 am] Oli: Yes. Lag [7/2/21, 6:34:28 am] Oli: FUCKING AUTO CORRECTOR [7/2/21, 6:34:36 am] Oli: SORRY TIS IS A RANT AHAIJST AUTO CORRCCTO [7/2/21, 6:34:40 am] Oli: Yes Same boat as I [7/2/21, 6:34:55 am] Oli: But no you were a bastion of respectability writing code [7/2/21, 6:35:06 am] Oli: As I was getting more and mor kissed m [7/2/21, 6:35:11 am] Oli: More and more pissed [7/2/21, 6:35:17 am] Sam: 🤪 quite! [7/2/21, 6:35:27 am] Sam: Ha, is it people from your uni who you’re drinking with, then? [7/2/21, 6:35:30 am] Oli: Why is this auto corrector so Freudian [7/2/21, 6:35:32 am] Oli: Yes!! [7/2/21, 6:35:43 am] Sam: It’s saving you some time and introspection 😉 [7/2/21, 6:35:51 am] Oli: Good idea [7/2/21, 6:36:12 am] Sam: God isn’t it awful when you mean to say one thing but end up saying your mother? [7/2/21, 6:36:27 am] Oli: Yes it’s my quote re being pissed [7/2/21, 6:36:43 am] Oli: Mentally in all there but co-ordintuonskly I’m disabled so [7/2/21, 6:36:48 am] Sam: Lol I meant that as a pun / Freudian joke [7/2/21, 6:36:54 am] Oli: Co-ordinationally [7/2/21, 6:37:01 am] Oli: Coordinationally [7/2/21, 6:37:03 am] Oli: Fucking phone [7/2/21, 6:37:07 am] Sam: Maybe that was a bit too subtle for your current frame of mind, lol [7/2/21, 6:37:16 am] Oli: Well paradox [7/2/21, 6:37:18 am] Oli: Parma is [7/2/21, 6:37:19 am] Sam: 😜 [7/2/21, 6:37:25 am] Oli: Parapraxia [7/2/21, 6:37:26 am] Sam: Parmesan? Hahaha [7/2/21, 6:37:31 am] Sam: 🧀 [7/2/21, 6:37:32 am] Oli: Parapraxis? [7/2/21, 6:37:35 am] Oli: Freudian skip [7/2/21, 6:37:42 am] Oli: Was that what you meant [7/2/21, 6:37:50 am] Sam: Parmesan in a parachute? [7/2/21, 6:37:57 am] Oli: God these phones [7/2/21, 6:37:59 am] Sam: Lol yes [7/2/21, 6:38:01 am] Oli: Liked locked in syndrome [7/2/21, 6:38:07 am] Oli: What the hell has this planet become [7/2/21, 6:38:16 am] Sam: Well I meant that I meant this as a joke about Freudian slips [7/2/21, 6:38:35 am] Oli: Yes it’s funny [7/2/21, 6:38:38 am] Sam: I actually do sympathise with you - I’m not sure if they’ve changed the autocorrect algorithm but I’ve actually found it much worse over the last few days [7/2/21, 6:38:38 am] Oli: I clocked it [7/2/21, 6:38:40 am] Sam: Even while sober [7/2/21, 6:38:43 am] Oli: But the auoto corrector iso [7/2/21, 6:38:49 am] Oli: Is preventing me from speaking!! [7/2/21, 6:38:54 am] Sam: I think you may be onto something - I suspect they’ve tweaked it somehow for the worse [7/2/21, 6:38:57 am] Oli: What a fascistic regime! [7/2/21, 6:39:05 am] Sam: Haha [7/2/21, 6:39:16 am] Sam: Ok gimme ten mins to have some breakfast 👋 enjoy yourself! [7/2/21, 6:39:23 am] Oli: BrsKfast?! [7/2/21, 6:39:34 am] Oli: You haven’t even gone to bed [7/2/21, 6:39:41 am] Oli: Fucking hell I’m off my rocker why a. I have up [7/2/21, 6:39:43 am] Oli: So late [7/2/21, 6:39:46 am] Oli: Well enjoy! [7/2/21, 6:39:58 am] Oli: Yes will try and sleep [7/2/21, 6:40:03 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [10/2/21, 6:07:08 pm] Oli: How're things with you? I forget which day it is most of the time... only to be told by the computer. What a world. I am back to Wiltshire for a week or two on Friday. [12/2/21, 4:07:48 am] Oli: Am on Clubhouse oliverbw_ it is really interesting [12/2/21, 4:07:59 am] Oli: (New app) [12/2/21, 4:08:48 am] Oli: Add on there if you download it [12/2/21, 4:08:59 am] Oli: Though there seem to be too many new platforms these days [6/3/21, 1:58:29 am] Oli: How are you? are you still alive? Answers on a nice postcard! All well here! [6/3/21, 9:00:16 pm] Sam: Not bad! I’m crazily busy - hence being terrible at getting back to my WhatsApp messages - but I’m coping 😅 How’s everything with you? [7/3/21, 12:04:08 am] Oli: That’s OK! Hope you get through it all unscathed! All well here thank you; I am just reading + going on walks! 💫 [7/3/21, 8:19:03 am] Sam: Aw, that’s nice! Where are you based atm? I’m very much counting down the days until lockdown ends and I can go to the pub again (I’ve already semi-planned another trip to Glasgow with my flatmate to get wasted like Scottish neds 😎) [8/3/21, 11:33:04 pm] Oli: Back in Exeter now but I go between the two places, shamelessly... though I can say I am in a support bubble with my grandfather, technically, if anyone accosts me, though he also seems to drive around to various people... you could shop us both! 🤣 [8/3/21, 11:33:26 pm] Oli: I seldom actually go to pubs/restaurants in normal times but it'll be one of the first things I do when this lockdown (or lockup) is lifted... [8/3/21, 11:33:48 pm] Oli: Never been to Glasgow but sounds fun. They have a funny sense of humour... perhaps they'd say we do too! [8/3/21, 11:34:01 pm] Oli: Hope your workload is lightening. We have to have some time to ourselves to get through it all I think! [8/3/21, 11:34:08 pm] Oli: Important not to overwhelm oneself! [13/3/21, 5:53:18 pm] Oli: Just seen your discussion on Facebook with William Hall re La Markle. [13/3/21, 5:53:29 pm] Oli: I am incontinent with laughter. A fun way to spend an afternoon! [13/3/21, 5:53:52 pm] Oli: I posted a similar thread and it was promptly derailed, so I deleted it. Such topics are best avoided online! [13/3/21, 6:00:35 pm] Oli: (unless it's not on one's own wall! 😈) [13/3/21, 7:00:37 pm] Sam: Ha, what ‘side’ are you on? I’m not on her side _strictly speaking_ - but at the same time I can’t really bring myself to care as much as other people evidently do [13/3/21, 7:01:07 pm] Sam: I actually find it quite bizarre and pathological that people get so angry about a dispute between people who they have no connection with whatsoever [13/3/21, 7:01:37 pm] Sam: And I find William’s explanation that “the monarchy is a public institution” to be a lugubriously flimsy one [13/3/21, 7:02:20 pm] Sam: Ford Motors is a publicly traded company, and yet neither I nor its investors - if they’re not deeply psychologically unhealthy - would give one percent of a fuck about a disagreement between members of the Ford family [13/3/21, 7:02:41 pm] Sam: I find the entire thing pathetic and pathological, to be perfectly frank - so much so that I find it hard to mince my words [13/3/21, 7:57:23 pm] Oli: I am not on any side: I find both dogmatic camps quite ridiculous. I am bored by the pro-Meghan/Harry camp and nauseated by the antis. I do think that they've come across as self-entitled in a way. I agree with you that we aren't *them* and don't know *them* (even if we did, we should be careful in coming to absolute conclusions) so that it's odd for us to feel so capable when it comes to coming up with judgements. How laughable that we invest our opinions with such truth. 'Us' and 'we' of course referring to the people commenting so dogmatically on this and not you and I. [13/3/21, 7:57:46 pm] Oli: People to whom I was explaining what I've essentially written in the latter paragraph seem totally incapable of grasping this point. [13/3/21, 7:58:11 pm] Oli: I think you come at it from an intellectual point, whereas most people come at it from an ill-informed, unreflective, emotional point, and the two are irreconcilable. [13/3/21, 7:58:20 pm] Sam: I agree with you 100% in pretty much everything you’ve said there 👍 [13/3/21, 7:59:25 pm] Sam: And that’s very flattering and makes me cautious to say I agree with it, but I do sometimes feel that way about this one particular thing - not that I’m more intellectual, per se, but I do feel a bit like the one sane person in a totally mad world when I hear people talk about this debate (which I’m amazed is elevated to the status of a ‘debate’) [13/3/21, 7:59:32 pm] Oli: I wrote to one person, 'I don't condemn them entirely but just don't like the way it's come across publicly,' to which said person responded, 'Well I condemn them totally!'. Right then... [13/3/21, 8:00:06 pm] Oli: It's to do with the proliferation of cultural values etc. isn't it. [13/3/21, 8:01:06 pm] Oli: I suspect many of these people are on the side of what we call the cultural war (an omnipresent thing) that resents development and believe themselves to be/or are in fact the now dispossessed in cultural terms: their idea is no longer (or maybe never was but now it's clear that it isn't) the zeitgeist. [13/3/21, 8:02:15 pm] Oli: I sympathise with the group that I've just described (or side of the culture war) but am not a conscious member as ultimately believe such things to be futile in the grand scheme of things. Like the Pre-Raphaelites etc. I enjoy such things/people and probably would be involved with such (and probably am in a contemporary sense) but at the same time distance myself intellectually as it's not universalisable to go against the grain - the grain has to go in one way for people to exist to go against it. [13/3/21, 8:02:51 pm] Oli: At any rate, I am probably being too charitable to these Meghan haters etc., but their views are probably linkable to such a set. [13/3/21, 8:03:20 pm] Oli: When I say 'intellectual' I mean it in the loose sense (at least here) of being in touch with one's mental faculties to a more conscious extent. [13/3/21, 8:06:01 pm] Oli: I like your Ford Motors/monarchy analogy. Think there is a potential disanalogy depending on your viewpoint. Such people may claim that x person, a member of said institution, i.e. the/a royal family, by speaking out, is doing down the institution in a way that wouldn't be possible by a mere stakeholder (Ford family member)'s disagreement/misconduct/etc. [13/3/21, 8:07:07 pm] Oli: I am not sure that argument is the case but people may claim it. I suspect it depends on how people conceptualise the monarchy, and I think there's a lot of misplaced, yet inevitable, emotion that comes with so doing. [13/3/21, 8:11:20 pm] Oli: 'You're all intelligent people whom I respect a lot' as you conclude your worthy argument... [13/3/21, 8:11:27 pm] Oli: etc. etc. and that's why you find it hard to comprehend. [13/3/21, 8:12:47 pm] Oli: They are heavily invested in the side of the culture war (I don't use that in terms of its modern connotations but in a subjective way I've just come up with - people of the zeitgeist and people not of it) that isn't conducive to inevitability. In fact they could be described as an extreme ancillary side. They may be intelligent insofar as they aren't total thickos but their reference libraries are not going to accommodate yours or anyone else's who may advance a similar argument [13/3/21, 8:12:52 pm] Oli: Hence why they will never agree. [13/3/21, 8:12:57 pm] Oli: (messages finished! :P) [13/3/21, 8:32:10 pm] Sam: I think part of it is a 'culture war'. I also think a very large part of it is due to race. I don't see any way to explain the difference between the reaction to this interview, and that to Diana's similar interview, other than based on race. In particular the idea that it's a reaction to her being American is preposterous, and seems to me to be analogous to p-hacking (enumerating all the differences between them and picking one other difference that could hypothetically ground the difference in reaction, in spite of the fact that, viewing it in a wider context, we have no culture of vitriolic anti-Americanism). In particular, people on the Right appear to have a tendency towards either racism, on the strong view, or hostility to the idea that things can often be explained by racism, on the weaker view. Racism is very common in this country and in the US, and the _extremely_ hostile reaction to her, almost from the outset, as a kind of foreign intruder into the royal family, strikes me as extremely redolent of racism and racist tropes. I can't be bothered to mince my words about it or engage in the common pretence that no one is racist, and that it's such a gravely offensive imputation that we have to avoid it at any cost, which is at odds with the reality that racism is extremely common and is hardwired into us (see e.g. the IAT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit-association_test, which even I, as a mildly mixed-race person, failed). I think the culture war you describe - that looks back to some imagined past, and sees our history as being 'taken away from us' by any kind of progressive development - is _deeply_ associated with racism. I'm very aware of it as someone who to some extent doesn't 'belong'. I think it's harder to spot in England because people tend to couch it in pseudo-intellectual terms like 'cultural conservatism'. It's why my grandmother didn't cotton onto any of the racism against her until my grandparents got a maid who came from the deep south of the US, and told my grandmother that the reason they were, for instance, seated at the back of the cafe at Harvey Nicks is "because we're black". Or why my grandfather was told when holidaying in Yorkshire by one of the local savages that "I'm not giving directions to you or your nigger wife" (in spite of the fact that they were both Cambridge fellows who had gone to school in England and were far better embodiments of the cultural ideals of English(wo)men than any of the pie-eating mongoloids of the Yorkshire dales). Anyway, all of this is to say that I think you _are_ generally being far too charitable to the Meghan haters. Which doesn't mean that I'm a fan of hers. I'm not. I don't warm to her very much, and I think she does come across as slightly cold and calculating. But so do plenty of people, and I'm under no illusions that the degree of the hostility towards her is completely impossible to account for on that basis - I mean, the same is true of many, many members of the royal family, both blood members and those who have married in. I think you're probably sympathetic because you're part of the social circles in which those opinions are pretty common. I'm also part of those social circles and I'm under no illusion that, when those people weren't sucking up to me because of the family one of my grandmothers was from (which for whatever reason Eoghain Murphy thought it was a good idea to advertise), several of them were openly racist towards me. I'm very lucky to have had several friends - including Benji - who stood up for me and saw to it that they were removed from the parties - when that happened. As for Ford Motors, I agree that my analogy stands or falls based on your perception of whether this dispute is actually material to the functioning of the institution itself (i.e. whether our hypothetical family disagreement is relevant to the value of the company in the Ford analogy). I don't think any intelligent person can actually think that, to be honest. Clearly nothing that has transpired between Harry and Meghan is going to affect the political power or stability of the monarchy. There are some newspaper columnists, whose job is to make unimportant things sound important so that they can sell newspapers, who will say that it does. Those people are either being dishonest to sell papers, or are mentally challenged. "You're all intelligent people whom I respect a lot" is also, obviously, bullshit. I think very little of either Michael or William. "They are heavily invested in the side of the culture war" - they are sad people whose lives have very little meaning or interest to anyone else, including themselves, who over-identify with a family none of whose members would give them a second thought if they died in a fire. [13/3/21, 9:31:36 pm] Oli: Absolutely, if anything, we seem to have the reverse (if the four years of Trump's presidency were anything to go by, ignoring a significant proportion of our population's justified, in my view, hatred for him/what he represents, or the eight years of Obama preceding that, or indeed Biden... WE ARE AMERICANISED to say the least and tacitly, at least, accept that. There are some who are anti-American but it isn't a national thing, as you note. Quite right. What a silly defence. I have just looked up p-hacking (and am still getting my head around it but it seems quite simple: looking at all of the multiple options and presenting an unlikely one as the most relevant? or at least that's how it can be colloquially understood and how you use it here to describe their behaviour?). I think you're right re your theory of the Right and their reaction to racism or the attributing of racism. A minor example, I was very semantically indeed, trying to prove the hypothetical notion of white privilege (any sort of privilege) to a cousin whilst on holiday in Turkey, with the backdrop of the Lycian coast, as we ate supper. You couldn't make it up, extraordinary. Anyway, I said that imagine a hypothetical place only going to admit white people (she need not have imagined one actually but anyway)... and noted that would be an example of white privilege... to show that it is conceivable that such exists. A very abstract example as I was feeling semantic. EVEN THAT she took umbrage to. 'Yap yap! No! No! Wrong!' was her response, essentially, as she couldn't handle the notion that the lens of race may even be used (as those on the Right, or some anyway, do seem to be totally incapable of believing that anyone, or any normal person, and those who aren't normal they don't accept as being human, would behave in such a way). Why? Do they not want to believe it or are they simply so ignorant? Perhaps a bit of both and it depends on the severity of the right-wingness? [13/3/21, 9:31:41 pm] Oli: (typing more but just spaced it out to allow you to view it in a friendly way) [13/3/21, 9:32:54 pm] Oli: I will look at the IAT in more detail. It's certainly an important thing to be aware of when discussing such matters. Maybe I will have a go at it. I have heard some people criticising it (apparently the founders criticised its effectiveness for how it is currently being used re race?)? [13/3/21, 9:33:58 pm] Oli: But undoubtedly racism exists, and is perhaps more extreme (more explicit?) in the USA, here. I burst out laughing at your description of the denizens of Yorkshire (and, by extension, I suppose, many provincial backwaters) as pie-eating mongoloids. A first class description and it's nice to see the pejorative mongoloid being used once more! [13/3/21, 9:34:36 pm] Oli: The funny thing is those on the right, or some, criticise those with our view as being 'out of touch' or not on the side of the REAL people (by which they mean those pie-eating mongos...)... [13/3/21, 9:35:28 pm] Oli: I'm not surprised, though still clearly disappointed in humanity, that you have experienced some racism. They seem to enjoy, ironically for those who criticise the left for doing what they perceive to be the very same, objectivising people based on certain immutable characteristics. [13/3/21, 9:38:17 pm] Oli: Your grandparents experience, having such pointed out to them by their maid, is telling. They, as educated and culturally enlightened people, simply wouldn't have conceived of it, surely, and yet, there it was. It's ironic isn't it how many of these thickos spouting racist tropes conform less to the ideal of the English citizen than those they criticise. [13/3/21, 9:39:22 pm] Oli: My grandfather and his siblings and other relations have had similar experiences (although far more mellow) in England in relation to their Irishness, despite the fact that not many in Ireland would recognise that. Most extraordinary people the English... [13/3/21, 9:39:48 pm] Oli: The thing with William, Michael (fucking hell!) and all of those people is that their reference libraries/value systems are so skewed that whatever they have to say is tainted with irrelevance. [13/3/21, 9:40:49 pm] Oli: It is fascinating to watch you and William discuss this matter on Facebook and to see how different your respective responses are; he clearly misses the point big time because he is coming at it from a very skewed position. Fascinating to watch. [13/3/21, 9:42:17 pm] Oli: I think these people, a funny group of people on the right who recite various tropes and invest heavily in unquestioned concepts, are immune to logic. They are able to come up (sometimes) with what, for them, seems to be a sufficient logical response but what to anyone else, who isn't in their mental rut, betrays their stagnant minds. [13/3/21, 9:42:56 pm] Oli: Interesting point about how it's harder to spot in England. [13/3/21, 9:43:50 pm] Oli: People seem not to mind those from other racial/cultural backgrounds as long as they conform with their ideals of Englishness. 'Ah! But you're an honorary Englishman' would be their response to such a person. [13/3/21, 9:43:58 pm] Oli: Or 'ah you're one of us!' or 'you think like us!' [13/3/21, 9:48:36 pm] Oli: Oh yes, that's what I was going to tell you... [13/3/21, 9:48:39 pm] Oli: A bit of catty gossip re La Hall... [13/3/21, 9:49:00 pm] Oli: He makes out that he's a great aristocrat (or at least a very serious squire with a pedigree going back for a long way...)... in Cornwall... [13/3/21, 9:49:24 pm] Oli: All well and good because most Londoners haven't gone that far in Britain and aren't au fait with the nuances of British gentry/connected to check... [13/3/21, 9:50:08 pm] Oli: Well, I have a cousin (Babington) who happens to be HIS local landowner (admittedly the Halls have some sort of freehold farm about 20 mins away) but nonetheless based on the way he conceives things that is the state of affairs... [13/3/21, 9:50:27 pm] Oli: And the cousin's neighbours are an invariably grander family who have some sort of title and also own much of the area. [13/3/21, 9:50:59 pm] Oli: Anyway, he often goes to parties the grander people put on at the big house, to be kind to the locals, 'oh what dears' (etc. etc.) and deludes himself into thinking that he's in with these people... [13/3/21, 9:51:41 pm] Oli: And when one of the cousins was made High Sheriff went to his charity bash he put on at his house (the equivalent of a BP garden party for THE PUBLIC) and decided to post it on to his FB page, to which another cousin (his sister) retorted 'hope you're going to donate!'. Hall was obviously not forthcoming. [13/3/21, 9:53:41 pm] Oli: Long story short, he's persona non grata amongst these people, but they have to tolerate him to some extent as, not only do they find the father a 'dear' ('what a sweet man!'), but has gossiped non-stop about them and has finally elicited their indignation. He was quite put out when he discovered, quite late for someone as knowledgeable as him on genealogy, my connection to this set up in Cornwall and how we are often invited to their non-public gatherings. Sad but that puts him into perspective as another fantasist. I have little time for these people (i.e. fantasists) now but do enjoy observing them, hopefully behind the safety of my computer screen! [13/3/21, 9:56:10 pm] Oli: addendum to this... have to tolerate him as he is also a sort of local and they want to be quasi-diplomatic (despite calling him a 'dickhead') [13/3/21, 10:05:09 pm] Oli: He is actually severely restricted (I have various privacy lists) from seeing my posts and when I do forget to restrict him and he does comment, 9/10 I remove his comment and hide the post from him. I do not want to be seen to be endorsing him; he has a reputation as a freeloader and loon in many circles, though sadly many are too weak to do anything about it. [13/3/21, 10:05:22 pm] Oli: This is all off the record, however much that is possible in today's social media age, by the way! [13/3/21, 11:22:46 pm] Sam: Some points in reply - since I don’t think I can write an exhaustive reply to all this!: • P-hacking is trying to find a statistically relationship by essentially enumerating vast numbers of variables until you hit one where there’s a statistically significant relationship with the dependent variable. The issue is that statistical significance is useful when you start with a hypothesis and then validate it, but not when you try to find a hypothesis by enumerating lots and finding one that yields a correlation. For instance, you might try to find a cause for shark attacks, and test vast numbers of variables until you find a statistically significant correlation with, for instance, the number of Romanian art house films released that month. I meant that the ‘American’ explanation was loosely analogous to p-hacking - not a literal instance of it - in that it seemingly comes from enumerating all the properties they both have until you hit one that differs between Meghan and Diana, in spite of the fact that when you look at the additional information, it clearly doesn’t make sense since anti-Americanism - at least to that level of vitriol - is not that prevalent here. Teasing anti-Americanism, sure, but not hatred. Race on the other hand _does_ give rise to that level of hatred. • White privilege is definitely a great example. Some people, for some reason, find it really hard to concede that being white might give you a (ceteris paribus) advantage in our society. _Of course_ it’s not a total advantage, and it’s one among many factors. Absolutely no one denies that. But people still persist in giving idiotic responses like “if I have white privilege, why was I at a disadvantage in X or Y situation”, or “if white privilege exists, why are there, like, 270 black people in the world who have achieved great success through playing basketball or writing rap music!?!?!”, etc. I think people on the right don’t want to accept it because they’d rather believe their success is attributable to their own hard work. Of course it’s partly attributable to their own hard work, almost always, but there are other factors like their race, the country they were born in, their economic position, luck, etc. Right wingers used to be intelligent. Now they seem to be motivated by an absolutely juvenile and simplistic view of the world, combined with mind-clouding outrage at anything that conflicts with their preconceptions. It disappoints me. People on the left are obviously subject to cognitive biases and narrow-minded motivated reasoning too, but nowadays the right seems susceptible to those things to a much higher degree. • I actually checked out the wiki for the IAT after I sent it to you, and I see what you mean: it does look like it’s been subject to a fair bit of methodological criticism. I don’t know if that criticism is (a) broad enough in scope (ie not minor criticisms of certain aspects) and (b) convincing enough that it should totally discredit it. I’m sure you’re academic enough to figure that one out and come to your own conclusions, so I won’t tell you what to think! It’s an interesting question. Speaking of racism, I had an interesting conversation once with my flatmate - well, he was mostly spluttering because he was very opposed to even *considering* what I was saying, which I don’t blame him for really - about what would happen if the claims in that book The Bell Curve were true. Now, I’m not saying they are, but it’s certainly not absolutely impossible, and it’s an interesting challenge: if it *did* so happen that the book were right (to summarise: it claims that white people are _on average_ more intelligent than black people, for evolutionary reasons, and Asian people in turn are more intelligent than white people) then what would that entail? Would that be a piece of knowledge so dangerous we’d be justified in suppressing it? Would it affect our core political principles about the equality of all people? I think it shouldn’t, but it’s an interesting consideration... Essentially, is it something that for moral reasons _could never be allowed to be true_? • I agree very much: it’s another idiocy of the modern right that it now identifies itself with provincial idiots. I believe in the equality of all people, but I believe people like that are deficient and need to educate themselves. Whereas the modern right is now claiming that they’re ok as they are, and liberal enlightened society should instead acclimatise itself to _their_ viewpoints. Essentially, it’s claiming that - as Asimov put it - democracy means that your stupidity is as good as my intelligence. I think that’s foolish, both in the sense of being incorrect and also of leading to dangerous conclusions and consequences. It’s analogous, you could say, to the fat acceptance movement, and how that movement transitioned from saying ‘being fat doesn’t mean you’re a lesser person, or that you should be bullied’ to saying ‘being fat is actually _an equally good condition_ and it’s wrong and offensive to say that you ought to lose weight’. • Yes, I find the right to be absurdly hypocritical. They’re _obsessed_ with calling the left ‘snowflakes’, while their entire political culture revolves around getting outraged about trivial, unimportant bullshit. They’re obsessed with saying that the left is engaged in a ‘culture war’, while most people on the left are occupied with important issues (climate change, automation, political polarisation, the perniciousness of certain structural dynamics in social media, trustbusting, dealing with automation in a way that embraces progress while ensuring proles aren’t left behind) while people on the right are constantly obsessed with whining about irrelevant wedge issues (trans children, xenogenders, Meghan Markle, whining about Sadiq Khan for utterly unarticulated reasons that boil down to blatant predictable Islamophobia and anti-brownness, etc). It bores the hell out of me. We have important issues to deal with. Grow the fuck up, people. • Yeah, I mentioned their experience with their maid to illustrate that they weren’t “looking for racism”, another tiresome trope of the tedious right-wing whining brigade. They had much more important things to deal with, and indeed even after starting to perceive it they didn’t waste much of their time fretting about the racism, but it’s undoubtable that it’s there and it’s very tangible - and you certainly don’t need to be brown or black to notice it, you just need to not be living in denial. • I agree with you about the racist thickos not exemplifying *any* of the laudable traits associated with the best of English culture. In fact, my grandmother always delights in pointing out how, whenever she travels on the bus or on the Tube and there are no free seats, it’s always - as she says - an Eastern European man who will be gallant enough to offer her their seat, and never one of the English people who undoubtedly will whine on Facebook about all the Eastern European coming over here and ruining ‘their’ English culture. I have such utter contempt for those people. The worst of English culture, sitting around claiming benefits and whining about people who are far better human beings than them. I can see what you mean about your Irish relatives. Of course they were subject to extremely similar racism. When my grandmother came here, they still had very common signs saying “no blacks, no dogs, no Irish”! Most white people claiming they’ve been victims of racism are - generally - talking rubbish, but you folks actually have a very legitimate claim to that. • I’m exhausted by people like William and Michael. The world contains so many wonderful things and this is how they choose to spend their lives. I pity them so much. I can’t imagine what it will feel like to be on their deathbed and realise “I spent most of my life on Facebook being outraged on behalf of the Queen, so I could feel like I was important, like I was part of the royal family”. It’s nearly schizophrenic - grandiose delusions... • People on the right wing fetishise logic - they’ll always talk about ‘facts over feelings’ and ‘the left wing hates logic’ and all of this. And yet when you try to engage in a logical conversation, speaking in the vocabulary of epistemic justification and the warrantedness of beliefs, Bayesian priors, and so on and so forth, they want nothing of it. William’s response has been essentially “you believe what you believe, I choose to believe this, and in my opinion what they say is false”. It’s the opinionification of just about everything. Things that should be susceptible of logical reasoning instead are treated as if they’re essentially value judgements not amenable of reason. Things that can be subject to logical deduction are instead treated as essentially items of religious faith. It’s all motivated reasoning. • Wow, thanks for the inside gossip about William Hall! I obviously have nothing like the amount of inside information you have, but based on my general ability to spot the difference between the ‘genuine article’ and frauds / social climbers, I’d pegged him quite a while ago. The first time I met him, I sent him home from my then-boyfriend Kieran’s party at 3 or so - he was one of the stragglers. He then started making a huge fuss about how he’d never been on public transport before, and how was he going to get home, and so on and so forth. Now, I know a handful of people who are serious aristocrats - not local gentry - and none of them who live in London, or spend time in London, have never been on public transport. It’s an absurdity. People who are the real thing don’t feel the need to engage in that kind of loudmouthed peacockery about their social status. And of course, when I offered to order him a cab, he said no - didn’t have the money - and ended up getting the ‘omnibus’. Pathetic, to spend your life so insecure about your own social status that you have to spend all your time and effort tailoring all your actions, all your personality, all your beliefs, towards pretending to be something you’re not. I have no ill will towards people - like you, I suppose - who are the genuine article, who were born into that world. That’s fine, it’s absolutely as valid as being born into any other social stratum. But god, making your whole life revolve around _pretending_ to a social status that you don’t have ... it’s grim beyond words. [14/3/21, 12:08:02 am] Oli: Erudite points and I agree with them all mostly but have some interesting potential development points for some so will offer a proper view soon, perhaps tomorrow, but for no I have to sort myself out and read my book on philosophy, which I am enjoying. 'A little history of philosophy' by Nigel Warburton! I look forward to re-reading your points and replying because they are always fun to read and think about! xx [14/3/21, 12:10:27 am] Oli: (funny point about William: he takes the Megabus up to London from Cornwall and then thinks I'm Rockefeller because I have a car... nothing wrong with penury but self-enforced penury in his case is ridiculous; he has two degrees from Exeter (history) and is able to fit in if he wants to. He doesn't travel on public transport! What is Megabus? I suppose technically not but still a blatant lie, just like he accuses Meghan... The 'omnibus'... brilliant. There are many grand people who work yet he says he is too grand to work. Well, let's just leave that there for now!) [14/3/21, 12:10:30 am] Oli: Will reply in more depth tomorrow; speak soon xx [14/3/21, 1:53:59 am] Sam: Oh, I’ve never read any of his books, but I’ve heard good things! I’m glad you don’t have the typical philosophy student’s absolute unexplained hatred for ‘pop philosophy’! Of course, ∀x a student of x hates ‘pop x’, but philosophy students seem to have it particularly bad [14/3/21, 1:54:38 am] Sam: Oh, well, there you go - either that night wasn’t his first time on public transport, or it was the beginning of a long and torrid love affair with public transport 😁 [14/3/21, 1:55:29 am] Sam: Well, I suppose _technically_ Megabus is a privately run company and not operated by l’état, but it’s hardly in the _spirit_ of his claim [14/3/21, 1:56:09 am] Sam: Actually, does ‘public transport’ refer to transport run ‘publicly’ - ie by the state, like the public sector - or does it refer to transport available to the public? I’m honestly not sure [14/3/21, 1:56:44 am] Sam: The ‘omnibus’ was his bizarre attempt at poshery and not mine, I should clarify! [14/3/21, 1:59:14 am] Sam: I can’t stand those sorts of people... wasting your whole life, accomplishing nothing at all of any significance whatsoever, dying a dim speck of light irrelevant even compared to our own inevitable cosmic insignificance, one line on his tombstone reading ‘For 80 years William tried very hard to convince other people he was posh. May he rest in peace. Or requiescat in pace, rather. Wait, what’s the Greek?’ [14/3/21, 3:26:58 pm] Sam: Did you ever read Proust, by the way? It suddenly struck me that you might quite like his book(s?)! [14/3/21, 11:38:11 pm] Oli: * (copying your nice little points system!) Well, yes, it's terribly sad how Hall chooses to lead his life: it seems to consist of no intellectual stimulation (or any other such stimulation for that matter) and instead revolves around attempting to (and, for the most part, failing) ingratiate himself with people he deems to be socially acceptable. The 'omnibus' reference would be funny were it clearly made in jest but in his case it's part of his loony package. Just sad. Very sad. People are all, to some extents, shaped by their social stratum and it is thus a neutral fact of life (as far as facts exist!)... indeed, Hall reveals his own by his neurotic sycophancy... You've come up with a good epitaph for him. It'd actually be quite a fun one to come across in a graveyard... I loved seeing you mention epistemic justification and recommend the best attitude to adopt re the Markle affair (a view with which I wholly agreed) and was not surprised when Messrs Manning Clark and Hall totally vanished without trace. Of course, they were out of their depth completely and were armed little else but platitudes. * I've never read Proust but recall you telling me that I'd enjoy In Search of Lost Time and it is now on my radar and list of things to read; thank you for that! * I'll have a stronger look into IAT. I think a lot of the criticism, when put under the microscope, is suspect and the result of Douglas Murray-esque platitudes etc., though that's not to discredit it all; I will enjoy looking through it. Even without the 'scientific' notion of IA, it sounds plausible. * Were the claims in the Bell Curve to be true... hmm. Yes, I think that a lot of that goes on already without people paying particular attention to its truth status. It's already deemed a topic that isn't morally acceptable and is thus worth suppressing, even if discussing it may eventually yield its disproving (as some have claimed to have done). I do not have a view on its truth as have not read it, just to state. John Fowles wrote a wonderful piece of philosophy, in fragmented form, discussing just this. There are some people who are, for whatever reason (he didn't precisely address the Bell Curve's claim), more intelligent than others: those people have an obligation towards their less fortunate peers. I also think that the IQ is perhaps a skewed way of measuring intelligence, or at least focusing on it solely. What about EQ? That's perhaps, arguably, more important! Though I'm sure that you'd get dogma on both sides were it to be demonstrably true, so I am not denying outright the moral worth of suppression (which seems odd but there we are... I do believe in the role of image/persuasion and thus slightly agree with Plato's idealistic state, which he later believed to be impossible yet still an ideal). * Why do you think the right seem to be imploding nowadays? Of course the left aren't without their problems (it's not that the right are winning but that the left keep losing some say) but culturally the right seem to be screwed in terms of intellect. Perhaps some of it is consciously studied and done to appeal to people... it did work in 2019, whatever you think of the electoral system (first past post) here. I think this seems to cover most of your political points, with which I largely agree: living in denial (cognitive dissonance maybe even?), dumbing down, provincialism, etc. [14/3/21, 11:42:15 pm] Oli: typos etc. extent* through* etc... sure there are many but the points should be clear enough I hope! [15/3/21, 12:42:19 am] Oli: Also, yes I like your point about philosophy students tending to eschew ‘pop philosophy’. I am probably one of those to some extent but regard this book as different... not quite pop philosophy... the author has a great insight which he simplified without dumbing down too much! [15/3/21, 12:42:50 am] Oli: simplifies* not sure why autocorrect thinks that it knows better than us, when in most cases it doesn’t?! ‎[15/3/21, 5:03:03 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 5:03:07 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 5:03:10 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 5:03:15 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 5:03:21 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 5:03:26 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 5:03:31 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 5:03:36 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 5:03:44 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 5:03:50 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 5:03:55 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 5:04:00 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [15/3/21, 5:04:06 pm] Oli: You thought you knew some fucked up people! [15/3/21, 5:04:30 pm] Oli: I am totally appalled at this. A bloke who lives near the Savoy and has a bathroom full of shit - the loo, the bath, the sink! ‎[15/3/21, 5:11:19 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 5:11:23 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [15/3/21, 5:11:27 pm] Oli: A funny addendum!! [15/3/21, 5:54:12 pm] Sam: Gosh, sorry I missed your messages last night! Just noticed them • Yes, I agree about William. It's bizarre too, because if you think about it soberly for half a second – which is clearly more than he's done to date – you realise that there are two sorts of people relevant here. First are people who genuinely *are* aristocrats, or the lower-upper class, or whomever it is he's trying to target. Second are people who are not. The first group - because if there's one thing the English upper class are good at, it's establishing mind-bogglingly detailed social rules and shibboleths to signal who's an _echt_ upper, who's faking it, and then the 95% of people who are neither real nor do they want to seem so – are therefore easily able to spot that William is _not_ one of their number. The second group might be taken in by him, but they presumably are not the people he wants to impress and thereby inveigle his way into. There's one possible world in which I'm subtly wrong and he _doesn't_ want to trick the first group, but only wants to impress the second group by making _them_ think he's part of the first. Which is possible, but, on the strength of what you said about the Cornwall cousins, doesn't seem to be the case. So, if I'm right, then what's the point of the whole palaver? This is why I say it's very pathological. Even if you accept his utterly bizarre axiology of life (i.e. the only important thing is to be or appear posh) then it _still_ doesn't make sense, doesn't succeed, even on its own terms. • As for epistemic justification, yeah, it's a harsh description you have of him and Michael essentially scarpering, but I can't think of a better way of putting it. You're right, I thought it would be a good idea to phrase it in neutral and logical language in order to let all the hot air out of their argument and let them actually calm down, stop shouting and raging, and see the claims they were ultimately making for what it was. It's like something out of an insane asylum. Sitting there, boldly claiming that they knew what (for example) Prince Charles was thinking, when in reality they're simply inventing fictional characters in their head based on people they see only snippets of on TV, and attributing emotional reactions to these (again, essentially fictional & inspired-by-real-life) characters, with a level of confidence wildly out of keeping with the near-zero objective certainty to their claims. It's grandiose delusions reminiscent of people having a psychotic break. There's simply absolutely no basis for their beliefs in reality. • Yeah, I'd be really interested to hear your conclusions about IAT. It's often quite hard to fish through these 'controversies' and figure out how much of it is real scientific debate, and how much of it is politically motivated because it conflicts with some generally-cherished false belief, like that in non-racism. And of course this cuts both ways. There are similar areas where the left can often be in denial about certain things, like differences between the biological sexes (I am *not* wading into the trans debate here, even though the point I'm making is one that's often made - incorrectly, or rather with the incorrect presumption of relevance to that debate - because gender is obviously totally separate from biological sex). • The point about the Bell Curve: I think, on my understanding of all the evidence, it is probably _not_ true. However, it's a mere contingent fact that it's not true. What fascinates me is what would follow, and what we would make of it, if it so happened that it _were_ true. That John Fowles piece sounds really fascinating - I'd love to read it if you can find a link, or even just the name of the paper/book! Also relating to that same paragraph: I entirely agree with you about IQ. Intelligence is an extremely vague and murky concept; it's very hard to define, and I think most people would disagree about how they define it. 'Ability to pass an IQ test' is definitely not what intelligence is - ie is not intensionally equivalent to 'intelligence' - and I'm not sure it's extensionally equivalent, or in other words a totally reliable proxy, either. In fact I'm absolutely sure it's not. It's too simple a test to possibly capture all the kinds of cunningness and problem-solving ability which we would consider components of intelligence. EQ is definitely one other thing which most people would agree falls under intelligence, or one form of it, although I think you can be extremely intelligent in certain aspects of human intelligence and yet extremely poor in others - and most people, like me, with Aspergers would fall into that camp where EQ and IQ are concerned (i.e. low in EQ, high or at least high_er_ in IQ). Anyway, that's a lot of babble just to make the point that just about everyone would instinctively make in reply to your comment (and which I think you're making too) which is that intelligence is very multifaceted and hard to reduce to one simple test, perhaps more so than any other human quality. I think perhaps it would be best if we saw intelligence not as a single trait, but as a 'superclass' or trait of traits: and then perhaps examples of intelligence-traits would include mathematical intuition, emotional cunning, deductive ability, predictive ability, etc. • I think the reason that the right are imploding is easier to understand if you realise that 'the right' is not a fixed group of people who are getting less intelligent. It's - as I'm sure you see too - a reference to _whatever political grouping currently qualifies as the most right-wing [i.e. most exemplifies whatever cluster of sequelae that we define as 'right-wing', which is something like chiefly two qualities: firstly, opposed to social progress; secondly, aligned with the interests of the bourgeois - though it used to be the aristocracy - over the proletariat]. That group used to be traditionalist conservatives like William Buckley or Harold Macmillan. Those groups are still there and are still as intelligent as they ever were: which is, I say grudgingly, _fairly intelligent_. However the group that now takes the biscuit for being most right-wing is a different group. This group is composed entirely of abject thumb-sucking imbeciles obsessed with totally irrelevant social wedge issues of no importance to anything whatsoever. This group always existed, but it seems to have taken over, in my view not because it's recruited those who were formerly Buckley-type conservatives, nor because it's recruited those who were formerly left-wing, but because it's recruited those who were formerly politically disengaged entirely. These are people who would have watched wrestling or football and never voted, and now they vote because people on the right - including those on the somewhat more traditional right - have got better at targeting and engaging them with the absolute lowest common denominator of content. I actually think Brexit was a big step in this. Cummings (awful man, albeit, grudgingly, a political genius; e.g. is my friend Jack's brother-in-law and even Jack doesn't like him) definitely played a large part in that, since his Brexit strategy, in terms of targeting people on social media, revolved - cleverly - not around targeting swing voters, but around targeting non-voters, low-hanging fruit that the other team wasn't playing for, and rigorously A/B testing different content and different political arguments on them until he found the ones that worked. And that's largely how we've ended up with the pathetically stupid wedge issues which these morons still whine about in the Facebook comments section under every news article. I wish they'd stayed in their prefab houses in Derbyshire eating insects or whatever the fuck it is those people used to do - live in a cave somewhere, for all I know or care The wider more historical reason - not an alternative reason, but a more long-term way of attributing causality within the same explanatory story - is that we cut education funding in the 80s and are reaping the consequences of that decision as the people who were in school in (or since) those days are slowly becoming a majority - or at least a large plurality - of living, voting adults. Of course it's not just that we cut funding, but also that the funding slowly as the population grew and we haven't committed to increasing education funding to keep up (we barely increase it to match inflation - come to think of it, I'm not sure we even do at all). [15/3/21, 5:54:24 pm] Sam: Anyway, that's in response to your text messages, let me read the images now [15/3/21, 5:55:34 pm] Sam: Wow, those screenshots are quite incredible [15/3/21, 5:55:37 pm] Sam: Absolutely revolting [15/3/21, 5:55:54 pm] Sam: That man's bath should consider going for a drink with William Hall, as they have a lot in common [15/3/21, 5:58:11 pm] Oli: Agreed... I am totally appalled by it. The flat should be nuked... and you haven’t seen the video (not that you want to!)! [15/3/21, 5:58:20 pm] Oli: Quite out of this world... [15/3/21, 5:58:28 pm] Oli: Now to read your main, more interesting message! [15/3/21, 5:58:41 pm] Sam: I heard the same thing about Johann Hari, according to my flatmate, when he was in deep depression [15/3/21, 6:06:26 pm] Sam: A better way to describe Michael and William Hall’s bizarre beliefs is that it’s like A Beautiful Mind, but if the guy were not only hallucinating about being part of the CIA, but _also_ hallucinating about being John Nash, and instead was a totally ordinary person who had accomplished nothing [15/3/21, 6:24:27 pm] Sam: Oh, you might be bored to death by this, but I’m excited enough to say [15/3/21, 6:24:43 pm] Sam: I’ve found this guy on tinder who I have the worst fucking crush on [15/3/21, 6:25:08 pm] Sam: He’s such an incredibly sweet and charming and endearingly, well, odd person ‎[15/3/21, 6:25:49 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 6:25:50 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 6:25:50 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[15/3/21, 6:25:51 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [15/3/21, 6:26:16 pm] Sam: ^ I don’t even know where to start with some of that stuff... [15/3/21, 6:27:49 pm] Sam: His mum - for some odd reason, in spite of being from Texas - has a house here, where he’s staying, and I am really really tempted to go down there and stay with him (like he wants me to, or at least he wants to meet me here or there or somewhere) [15/3/21, 6:28:20 pm] Sam: It’s a very gorgeous and idyllic looking house they’ve got here, too, which he’s staying at: ‎[15/3/21, 6:28:24 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [15/3/21, 6:41:14 pm] Oli: Oooh... relationship discussions... ok that is prioritised over thinking about your erudite points (which I'll do later on this pm)... [15/3/21, 6:41:17 pm] Oli: Now to address this pressing matter... [15/3/21, 6:49:36 pm] Oli: Fascinating!! [15/3/21, 6:50:06 pm] Oli: Funny how the mother has a house here (a nice one too with lots of lovely green space...) and lives in Texas simultaneously. A random combination but eclectic. [15/3/21, 6:50:09 pm] Oli: He looks cute!!! [15/3/21, 6:50:49 pm] Oli: I like the idea of his plant research too lol; suitably wacky (not to discredit it because it sounds interesting and quite worthwhile but you know what I mean) for you too!! [15/3/21, 6:51:30 pm] Oli: I like his convoluted story of how he came to be here... [15/3/21, 6:51:46 pm] Oli: Do you think these dating apps are worthwhile? Well, probably given people have luck on them... [15/3/21, 6:52:07 pm] Oli: Might as well go and visit! [15/3/21, 6:58:55 pm] Oli: Oh I see... they are English and jumped back and forth... [15/3/21, 7:45:56 pm] Sam: Oh haha, I was waiting for you to finish replying because I read that as “later _in_ this pm [private message I assumed]” [15/3/21, 7:48:00 pm] Sam: I know! He’s exactly my type: nice, quirky, cute (doesn’t hurt!), really sweet, and no ego or pretensions 🙂 [15/3/21, 7:49:38 pm] Sam: No, don’t worry, I didn’t read that as trying to discredit - I know exactly what you mean and I agree entirely :) I think it’s eclectic in a way that I really warm to, because it shows that he does what interests him and doesn’t fuss about how it appears to the outside world, which I find really endearing and attractive [15/3/21, 7:50:00 pm] Sam: The polar opposite of the whole Michael and William personality type that we’ve been discussing [15/3/21, 7:51:10 pm] Sam: Yes exactly! Though having spoken to him for a while, I think what he means is English some generations ago (though clearly his parents’ generation are still willing - well, what I mean in concrete terms is really _his parents_ - to jump between the two) [15/3/21, 7:52:32 pm] Sam: I absolutely do! You know, Kieran suggested I get Tinder, and within literally 10-15 minutes I met Alex (the one we spoke about a month or so ago - gorgeous beyond words, imo at least, but very anxious - he lived in Newcastle if that rings any more bells) [15/3/21, 7:52:57 pm] Sam: Honestly I strongly strongly recommend that you get it - I can provide advice on what photos and what description to use, if you need a neutral eye [15/3/21, 7:53:51 pm] Sam: (I don’t know if you’ve arrived at this observation yourself, but this rule is true of me and everyone I know: you always pick considerably worse photos of yourself than if you let other people choose for you) [15/3/21, 7:54:35 pm] Sam: I think it’s because we all have distorted visions of how we look - or what our ideal ‘attractive’ self-presentation / style is, if you understand what I mean - I know I’m not expressing it terribly well at all [15/3/21, 11:08:01 pm] Oli: * (I like these as points!) Oh, haha! A fun reminder about subjectivity and the need to accurately get one's meaning across. Sorry about that! Anyway, all's well that ends well... He sounds like a really good person. I hope that it works out (if it does). Keep me posted! He must have a worthwhile reference library in his head (experiences etc.). I recall the other one, Alex, though forgot the name, and remember how neurotic he was. You're right about photos: always undersell (that applies to a lot of things I think in life?)! I have heard people say that and, now that you remind me of it, agree with it. I know what you mean about our distorted visions of how we look. Some people tell me that x/y photo looks lovely (a photo that I particularly don't like) or that I look nice as I am today (e.g.) when I don't see it. Must happen to us all. I suppose those perceptions are the what matter and are more important than our own ones? Are they universal? Probably not but still a good rule of thumb to disconnect how we regard ourselves from how others do. I should get a profile there and see how it goes. You can help perhaps... lol! On a different but not unrelated note, one day we will hopefully have a conversation about psychology (of course it will be one among many interesting conversations we'll have)... but I sometimes feel unable to relate to my *own* (empirically, age-wise) generation (my own cultural generation is skewed and is anywhere between the ages of 30/40-90 owing to having been raised for the most part by my grandfather). I perhaps get on better with people aged 30+ because they've got some form of life experience and aren't as bogged down by not being able to answer/think about cohesively the basic questions of life as many our age are; this reflects the mental attitude of many of the people I know socially and get on with. I get on with people like you and other intelligent/uniquely minded people my age though, so it is an interesting one. I am also, for the most part, attracted to people of my age... what a conundrum in many ways and in other ways it's quite fun... I am essentially best thought of as a stupid adult (rather than a precocious young man I think). I wondered what your view is on this? I often look back on my life and try and identify the seminal moment; there are too many... * I think re William Hall it's a bit of both. He wants to ingratiate with the first group to a sufficient extent that he's seen by the second group to be one of the first group (and delude himself, more importantly, I think). There is a middle group, people who aren't aristocrats/upper class/whatever (which is really the wrong point because today's upper class aren't the people he thinks... something my grandfather said to me when on holiday in Turkey that the people we see in these super yachts make up the new elite etc...) but want to be/feel superior, and he and many of his chums fit into that. I just realise that you've basically outlined what I think to be the case (slightly) afterwards. The Cornwall cousins eample of him attempting to delude himself into thinking that he's part of the first group, or at the very least *recognised* by them as some sort of quasi-member, [15/3/21, 11:08:12 pm] Oli: (pressed the send button before finished... will go on typing...) [15/3/21, 11:18:01 pm] Oli: The palaver is an exercise in him trying to confirm to himself that he has some identity other than what he perceives to be his facticity; a good example of cognitive-dissonance. It's ridiculous and of course it doesn't make sense... but to him it does. We have to analyse his context to work out why. Also, to note, some background, Cornwall is a fairly backward county socially in that respect and there is still a lot of deference, on the local, rural yocal level anyway, for those whose families in the past would have had a very pronounced presence in the county and who perhaps today still have some vague resemblance to their predecessors. It makes no sense at all. Anyone from that background finds it ridiculous (of course) that people want to inveigle their way into it/should want to be one of them but that's the same for most people. For whatever reason there is some sort of culture of sucking up to such people... probably because the necessary paradigm shift hasn't been made yet (the landed establishment, aristocracy/gentry etc. ceased to be a prominent force in terms of finance, social and political power - the triumvirate is important - definitely in the early 20th century and possibly in the latter half of the 1800s... despite illusions, i.e. upper middle class professionals etc. bearing a slight resemblance... and of course there exist outliers but these people who are representative of that background and who are successful today are so because of adapting not because of the old reasons. E.g. the Cornish cousins did well because they happened to own a beach and land that they've converted into a campsite... and for the fact that they, unlike so many, held onto their land (they also market their garden, an exotic one, to the public). It's really a question of right place right time and adapting not being a boater hat-clad tosser and thinking that various parties/hints of glamour (lol) are the norm. My own background is slightly similar but very faded by comparison. My mother happened to inherit an old house from the family (it could've gone to a few others...) and a very dissipated landholding (owing to land reforms in Ireland - the only really good marketing point for such is the gardens, if you've got a good one), in another county, from a separate line of the family, both in N Ireland, which is good for farming to an extent. Anyway, she seems to live her whole live consumed by this house, maintaining her garden, doing up the rooms herself, and does have one or two nice pieces of furniture and family paintings (the history of which is more my thing than hers)... the point is she doesn't go around London or Dublin prattling on that she's some sort of aristocrat/member of the gentry (Hall claims the latter as it's an enigmatic concept and easier to claim... though there are tacit rules...). There are lots of people in a similar position in Ireland/Scotland/Wales/England; some may, yes, behave like William Hall, and with slightly more justification, but whatever they do William Hall is not one of them and is a total loser. Despite the topsy turvy nature of things nowadays, the old social order, which I'm sure you know is still around and deluding itself in many ways, having been displaced, is quite interlinked and, although it may seem like x does not know y, if one seriously banged x and y's heads together they'd have a good few people in common for whatever reason. Anyway, the point is Hall is a non-entity and a loser. As for Manning Clark, what a ridiculous name, whom I've never had the privilege of meeting (thankfully): he's even worse. [15/3/21, 11:18:14 pm] Oli: Now to address the other points... (am typing in funny instalments owing to my rhythm having been offset by pressing send early!) [15/3/21, 11:22:11 pm] Oli: That your focus on epistemic justification, to my eyes the only rational focus in such a debate, made them run off shows us all that we need to know about their intellectual calibre: they are not worth dealing with. It is very unfair, I believe, to talk to someone in a meaningful way about y when they are so cognitively closed about it (those with more patience, perhaps I on a certain day, and you yesterday, are to be praised). Total grandiose delusions and confirms their membership of the group I've just described... sad fuckers. [15/3/21, 11:26:40 pm] Oli: * IAT is something that I'll have to apply my mind to properly when I have the time to focus on it as it's not something that I feel able to offer a flippant response to; it's a very important issue in this day and age certainly. * The John Fowles work to which I allude is 'The Aristos' (meaning 'best') and it's a set of fragments in which he outlines his ideal human being. He's more talking about natural (conditioned/social conditions etc.) lack of intelligence and our response to it. Good point about the murkiness of both IQ and EQ. I hadn't at all considered how people with Aspergers, e.g., would fare on it, and there's no doubt that you are far from the opposite of intelligent! I like the idea of measuring intelligence through multiple avenues (having multiple indicative traits). I'm sure many people have written about this. [15/3/21, 11:27:21 pm] Oli: * Another point about William Hall: all of the things he's said or behavioural characteristics he's advocated that Markle/Harry should display he notably lacks. He is a major gossip and has little to no social tact. [15/3/21, 11:27:40 pm] Oli: (hence why I mostly block him from seeing my posts) [15/3/21, 11:33:22 pm] Oli: * I agree totally with your list of right-wing qualities (probably not exhaustive, but not meant to be...) and the now dominant group of people with such qualities. The Asimov quote you provided yesterday seems to sum things up well. What's the future for politics/democracy as a result of all this do you think? Also, what does the left need to do? They can't be wholly exonerated. Cynically, isn't all politics/winning elections about getting the right message out there and in this case Cummings won. The left lost. Or is this the wrong way to look at it? [15/3/21, 11:33:58 pm] Oli: (end of messages thus far!) [15/3/21, 11:49:42 pm] Sam: Sorry, I can’t quite reply to all of this tonight but I’ll try to write a summary reply tomorrow morning! Haha [15/3/21, 11:50:24 pm] Oli: Yes! It takes effort to do such and we both need our own lives!! [15/3/21, 11:50:32 pm] Oli: Have a good evening (what’s left of it)! [15/3/21, 11:51:30 pm] Oli: I miss letter writing really! [15/3/21, 11:51:52 pm] Oli: A fun way of corresponding and less horribly instant than all of this! [15/3/21, 11:56:49 pm] Oli: Summary replies are good! Much like summary judgments 🤣 [19/3/21, 1:50:19 am] Oli: Am In Suffolk now! Maybe you are in London! [19/3/21, 1:50:27 am] Oli: Just here for a few days; at a friend’s for their birthday! [19/3/21, 1:50:41 am] Oli: Leaving Sat morning to have lunch in Wiltshire [19/3/21, 1:50:45 am] Oli: A nice county to live innn [19/3/21, 1:50:46 am] Sam: Haha, I am indeed in London! 😂 Next time, next time! [19/3/21, 1:50:56 am] Oli: Lovely county all the same [19/3/21, 1:51:25 am] Oli: Maybe will be underwater in a few decades... [19/3/21, 1:53:38 am] Sam: Yes I’m sure it will be.... I’m not sure _any of us_ have much time left (can’t remember if this is something we’ve spoken about before, but I’m shocked by how out-of-touch with reality even the journalists and citizens _who are generally considered radical and alarmist_ are!). Anyway, let’s enjoy it while it lasts, and then have a shot of whiskey and a shot of fentanyl and leave with panache [19/3/21, 2:13:04 am] Oli: Agreed... best solution! [20/3/21, 10:58:02 pm] Oli: I'm writing another short story now. [20/3/21, 10:58:25 pm] Oli: It's basically my life with my grandfather on a visit to his homosexual cousin, who is semi-closeted, in Ireland. But I've changed names and added some semi-psychological ruminations... [20/3/21, 10:58:33 pm] Oli: At 4k words so far! It is funny writing these things as some bits are better than others... [20/3/21, 11:15:58 pm] Oli: ‘The alcoholic Pole made that too; he can be quite reliable when he chooses,’ she half-heartedly gesticulated towards the bench, which, were it not blessed with the great fortune of overlooking Dublin Bay, would have been ignored and yet another shrine to the torpor inherent, for the most part, in such contexts. A cool ocean breeze caressed the duo on this ostensible summer’s day. ‘I always think that The Rocks is a unique house; there are many houses like Glenfarne but none quite so like this.’ A rare insight into her mind, which, innocently overlooked, scarcely dared to reveal itself. He stood in silence, taking in the atmosphere, as she prattled on, mostly indulging in various whims and occasionally laying the foundations for quasi-yet-inarticulate-philosophy, wondering how the spot once favoured by Sir William Orpen, no less, could be so patently desecrated by such unreflective, though conceited, philistinism, however devoid of ill will. However woolly her conversation, she was right about one thing: The Rocks was unique. Situated within 60 acres on the Hill of Howth, at the end of a not-so-beaten track, at the bottom, with its own beach, now sporadically availed of by others, roaming rights or not, was the most magnificent dwelling, owing to its location and well-thought-out gardens rather than architectural merit, which was scarce, to say the least. [20/3/21, 11:15:58 pm] Oli: Intro... just a teaser... [20/3/21, 11:16:02 pm] Oli: It is better in some parts than others.. [20/3/21, 11:16:05 pm] Oli: Now to carry on! ‎[20/3/21, 11:21:14 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[20/3/21, 11:21:15 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [20/3/21, 11:23:09 pm] Oli: lovely! xx love to you both so nice xx [21/3/21, 3:03:05 am] Oli: Must re write my drafts! So many bad ones lol... all the best!! [21/3/21, 3:03:27 am] Oli: Glib metaphors eg caressed. Must’ve been pissed [21/3/21, 3:03:34 am] Oli: Anyway the joy of drafting 🌟😇 [1/4/21, 3:34:05 pm] Oli: Re my recent post... half joking half not. In truth a bit put out by the unreflective tendencies of those who jump on the 'bandwagon' of being right on. There are of course problems that need to be addressed but I think it has sometimes spiralled out of control in how it dehumanises people who are genuinely ignorant/ill-educated/products of that system. [1/4/21, 3:34:20 pm] Oli: Also... tolerating comedy is the sign of a civilised society? [1/4/21, 3:34:37 pm] Oli: Problem is... some genuine fascistic people seem to find my post funny for the wrong reasons... [1/4/21, 3:34:59 pm] Oli: Online interactions are like that! :P [1/4/21, 3:36:30 pm] Sam: Yeah, my viewpoint is basically "I basically want to be kind and considerate to people; I don't want to spend my entire life being a dick just so I can feel proud of how contrary I am, but nor do I want to go and chase people down for being un-woke just so I can feel superior" [1/4/21, 3:36:53 pm] Sam: So basically anyone who's spending their entire life obsessing over this culture war - on either side - instinctively makes me cringe a bit [1/4/21, 3:37:05 pm] Sam: Yeah, I do get that side of the debate, totally! [1/4/21, 3:37:33 pm] Oli: The problem is most people who express my views are likely fascists... [1/4/21, 3:37:39 pm] Oli: or some sort of skin-head fringe movement! [1/4/21, 3:37:47 pm] Oli: And they just use 'my views' or similar such views as a cloak. [1/4/21, 3:37:50 pm] Oli: To shroud their thuggery! [1/4/21, 3:38:00 pm] Oli: agreed! [1/4/21, 3:38:14 pm] Oli: I am contrarian sometimes on purpose to point out foibles on both sides (or what I see as such) and perhaps that is one of my foibles... [1/4/21, 3:40:59 pm] Oli: btw... Murphy's videos as a Tory Cllr are hilarious... [1/4/21, 3:40:59 pm] Oli: Trollopian satire [1/4/21, 4:00:12 pm] Sam: Yeah, I see your point... My attitude nowadays is that, unless and until someone's at my door demanding my head on a stake, then these 'culture war' issues are almost never as important as either the left or the right (but let's be honest, much more frequently the right) makes them out to be You have tedious rags like the Spectator churning out articles every day about how society is going to hell in a handcart because of X or Y change, and yet in 20 years of being on this earth, aI don't think any of the things they've moaned about have ended up affecting my - or virtually anyone's - life at all... So I just tune it out, really! Also what are Murphy's videos about? They sound absolutely brilliant 😅 [1/4/21, 4:02:35 pm] Oli: Murphy's videos consist entirely of him spouting conservative platitudes interspersed with Archers-esque comedy about fly-tipping etc... [1/4/21, 4:02:45 pm] Oli: His facial expressions are ridiculous to say the least! [1/4/21, 4:03:54 pm] Oli: I agree with you! The media tends to overplay it and that annoys me greatly but also has the much more pernicious impact of raping my conscience (is that a micro-aggression? probably... oh dear... in truth I am not very 'aware' about these things but have no ill will, or very little). [1/4/21, 4:04:38 pm] Oli: Will take the post down later probably but just enjoying seeing how different people react to it; the sensible ones find it funny and move on; the fascist-leaning people find it funny, for the wrong reasons, and go over the top in their sarcastic tropes. I may block that Nieroa guy from viewing it and delete one of his comments; it's too much; he is actually very extreme indeed. [1/4/21, 4:05:43 pm] Oli: In a way, I don't mind that as we are all unique people but there is something very troubling about him in particular... [1/4/21, 4:06:23 pm] Oli: The Spectator is ridiculous, but sometimes it does actually produce the odd worthwhile article (or have something that, if interpreted in such a way, can be useful). [1/4/21, 4:06:29 pm] Oli: 9/10 though it's embittered rants! [1/4/21, 4:07:03 pm] Oli: I also live a life completely removed from such things - my only interaction with it is via the media/social media, which does have a bad impact. [1/4/21, 4:07:11 pm] Oli: Funny business life is! [1/4/21, 6:53:20 pm] Sam: It sounds brilliant! A bit like Alan Partridge! Did you ever see Alan Partridge? It’s skewering that exact thing (the hilariously portentous and self-important local Tory counsellor who thinks he’s an elder statesman - not literally a Tory councillor in the show, but that very same personality type) ‎[1/4/21, 6:54:16 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/4/21, 6:55:29 pm] Sam: See, I’m used to embittered rants, but the funny thing about the Spectator (unlike the telegraph etc) is that you often get to the end of the piece and think “was that it? have I somehow been cut off? is that actually the whole thing, and was he actually making any sort of discernible argument or was it pure unadulterated waffle?” [1/4/21, 6:56:37 pm] Sam: Yeah, I think a better way of articulating my reaction is that I don’t really mind much what anyone’s opinion on the topic is, but I think it’s a sign of an unhealthy and boring person to actually care a lot about it and start ranting ... like, there are just so many fascinating and worthwhile things in the world, and who gives a fuck about that stuff!? Haha [1/4/21, 6:56:55 pm] Sam: I was referring to him, not you, to be clear! ‎[1/4/21, 6:59:15 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[1/4/21, 6:59:16 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/4/21, 7:57:26 pm] Oli: Will reply soon... [1/4/21, 7:57:43 pm] Oli: Just making a soup and then going for a drink with two painter and decorators I met doing up the hotel near my flat in Exeter LOL [1/4/21, 7:57:49 pm] Oli: We just randomly had a chat and they like philosophy... [1/4/21, 7:57:54 pm] Oli: Quite funny... [1/4/21, 7:57:56 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 [1/4/21, 11:59:21 pm] Oli: ‎Missed voice call [1/4/21, 11:59:29 pm] Sam: Argh, sorry, I’m about to go to bed! Would be great to catch up soon though, whenever you’re around! [1/4/21, 11:59:32 pm] Oli: Maybe you are locked up by your housemate... [1/4/21, 11:59:40 pm] Oli: I’ve had such a weird evening; so much to report... [1/4/21, 11:59:48 pm] Oli: Yes may be in Notting Hill next week..: [1/4/21, 11:59:54 pm] Sam: Ha, he’s up reminiscing about the 90s with someone off Grindr! [1/4/21, 11:59:53 pm] Oli: If you are around [2/4/21, 12:00:01 am] Sam: Send me an update! I’ll read it in the morning [2/4/21, 12:00:04 am] Oli: 🤣 [2/4/21, 12:00:15 am] Sam: And yeah I’m around next week! Let’s have a drink :) [2/4/21, 12:00:49 am] Oli: I’m laughing at that.. [2/4/21, 12:00:53 am] Oli: Goodnight! [2/4/21, 12:01:08 am] Sam: Ha, glad to have amused! Night! :) [2/4/21, 12:01:19 am] Oli: Also I want to hear about your new person [2/4/21, 12:01:26 am] Oli: The one with whom you had a date!! [2/4/21, 12:01:28 am] Oli: Yes speak soon! [2/4/21, 12:01:46 am] Sam: I’ll fill you in on all the details in the morning! I’m going to stay at his over the weekend, so will have lots to report next week [2/4/21, 12:01:51 am] Oli: Good! Speak soon!! [2/4/21, 12:01:57 am] Oli: 🙏 ‎[2/4/21, 12:02:13 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [2/4/21, 12:02:31 am] Sam: Anyway, hope you have a good night! Talk to you tomorrow, sleep well 👋 [2/4/21, 12:02:57 am] Oli: Sounds exciting! Yes look forward to it! 😇 [2/4/21, 12:32:48 pm] Oli: I love your family chat lol; we have no such thing... perhaps because we are too far spread out and semi dysfunctional? I am just imagining trying to instigate some sort of chat; it'd go down like a lead balloon! [2/4/21, 12:33:21 pm] Oli: Your relation's caption is quite apposite. Ice-cream is infeasible as such a material! :) [2/4/21, 12:34:01 pm] Oli: LOL at that. Very entertaining... [2/4/21, 12:34:37 pm] Oli: I've seen Alan Partridge on YouTube but wasn't aware of its full meaning. I think I'll watch one or two now that I've got that in mind as it seems to have been made for Murphy! [2/4/21, 12:35:26 pm] Oli: You're right about the Speccy. The articles that I've enjoyed reading or have thought have had something about them do seem to abruptly end, like a sudden cliff appearing,... [2/4/21, 12:35:27 pm] Oli: ...* [2/4/21, 12:35:54 pm] Oli: Yes. It's some sort of pathological obsession for these people [2/4/21, 12:36:26 pm] Oli: Will keep you posted as to my movements next week if I am up or not. Depends on how much work I get done this weekend but hopefully will be :P [2/4/21, 12:36:43 pm] Oli: very imperious cat [2/4/21, 12:37:25 pm] Oli: Yes sounds appropriate given his love for plants... [2/4/21, 12:37:32 pm] Oli: Sounds like a very nice time will be had! Enjoy! :) [6/4/21, 7:05:52 pm] Oli: How was it all?? Sounds good!! [6/4/21, 7:05:56 pm] Oli: Hoping all well [9/4/21, 9:35:19 pm] Oli: Am I London [9/4/21, 9:35:27 pm] Oli: In Battersea with godmother! [9/4/21, 9:35:39 pm] Oli: Maybe see you if you are around [9/4/21, 10:37:51 pm] Oli: We are going to lay flowers tomorrow [9/4/21, 10:37:58 pm] Oli: She says she will chain herself to the railings if stopped [9/4/21, 10:37:59 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 [9/4/21, 10:40:56 pm] Sam: Oh hello! Sorry I’ve been so terrible at replying lately! I have a busy day of work tomorrow in the daytime, but would you fancy coming over for a drink in the evening? Or I’d be happy to come over to where you’re staying, of course, if that’s better (I’m not sure what the setup is where you’re staying, and whether you’re actually staying _at_ your godmother’s) - but it’ll probably have to be one or the other, seeing as I don’t think bars and pubs and all the various dens of iniquity are open till Monday, IIRC 😜 [9/4/21, 10:44:12 pm] Oli: My godmother is here watching the news going on about how wonderful Philip was and how she loved meeting him. And just called Meghan Markle a ‘tyke’ 🤣🤣🤣 [9/4/21, 10:45:32 pm] Oli: Yes staying here but probably leaving tomorrow not sure. She said ‘we’ll arrange our flowers for tomorrow; not like Diana’s, which came from the garage’ [9/4/21, 10:45:34 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [9/4/21, 10:46:55 pm] Oli: We can be in touch tomorrow. Maybe visiting you maybe good. Lol!! My godmother is [9/4/21, 10:46:58 pm] Oli: Funny!! ‎[9/4/21, 10:47:21 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/4/21, 10:47:33 pm] Oli: Lol! This gives you a context as to the people I’m surrounded by! [9/4/21, 10:48:30 pm] Oli: Her grandfather was Admiral Beatty. She is funnily also called Diana and says she hates sharing a name with Diana. It’s quite a backwater social circle that most people don’t understand - one that William Hall wants to be in but is rejected from [9/4/21, 10:48:38 pm] Oli: It’s quite stifling lol as very dogmatic at times!! [9/4/21, 10:49:02 pm] Oli: But hopefully we can meet 😇🙏 lol. May abscond to friend in Mayfair tomorrow so will be freer! [9/4/21, 10:49:51 pm] Sam: Oh god [9/4/21, 10:50:32 pm] Sam: Haha, confessedly not my crowd - as you can probably tell from my instinctive response - but I respect that she’s the way she was raised, and not putting it on like William Hall! [9/4/21, 10:51:06 pm] Sam: And let me know about tomorrow! [9/4/21, 10:51:09 pm] Oli: Yes. Luckily my grandpa - who was my surrogate father - rebelled and is an intellectual!! [9/4/21, 10:51:17 pm] Oli: So I have a bit of both... conflicted identity [9/4/21, 10:51:22 pm] Oli: Will be in touch 🙏😇 [9/4/21, 10:51:36 pm] Oli: Will be fun!! [9/4/21, 10:57:10 pm] Sam: Woohoo, go grandpa! It sounds like I would definitely enjoy having a drink with him someday 😅 ... the others probably not so much (though, like I said, I have a lot more respect for them than I have for others who are faking being from that same culture) Anyway, do be in touch, and even if you can’t make it work for tomorrow, don’t worry too much - we’ll make a successful plan at some point 🙂 [9/4/21, 10:58:10 pm] Oli: Yes you would like my grandpa. I will find a copy of his book for you. I agree in a way that people who are determined - victims of their background - are less pernicious in a way than frauds [9/4/21, 10:58:31 pm] Oli: Agreed. I will hopefully see you tomorrow but inevitably we’ll arrange something 😇 [10/4/21, 12:46:53 am] Oli: Let’s pencil in the evening [10/4/21, 10:20:05 am] Sam: Yes absolutely! I’ve wrestled with a similar question, whether Nazi collaborators (motivated by pure greed and knowing it was wrong) were better or worse than actual Nazis (motivated by believing they were doing the right thing, albeit very misguidedly), since some of my relatives fall into the former camp. And I always thought the collaborators - or the frauds in this analogy - were worse, because they knew the error of their ways... Anyway - yes, let’s pencil in the evening. Let me know if & when you’re free, and we’ll figure something out! [10/4/21, 1:12:34 pm] Oli: A very interesting question. I think you are right and this is something I actually wrote an essay on many years ago now (!): the quality of will is important. Counter arg to that, to which I made an objection, and will think about it again as I need to develop it, but with which I also sympathise, is that abnormal moral contexts must eventually become the norm if morals are to evolve for the better, e.g. unwilling racist... what to do? Point out the error of x's ways to better the moral context or totally exculpate? That was how it was presented - to my mind a false dichotomy... one can gently point this out without dehumanising and without exculpating. [10/4/21, 1:13:18 pm] Oli: We went to bed at 4am my godmother was on lots of vodka and I the wine. They are alcoholics here... well she is, her partner (she divorced her husband in the early 2000s; has 2 sons) is a foodaholic who we think has mental issues and long Covid. He's not that rotund but he shovels in food and then sleeps... [10/4/21, 1:13:26 pm] Oli: (whilst working as an energy executive - all quite odd...) [10/4/21, 1:14:12 pm] Oli: He has ticks and gets agitated at the most trivial of things... this morning she took out an old joint of lamb or whatever and asked him, as he was cooking our admittedly lovely breakfast, should she throw it out. 'STOP! STOP!' he said, putting a hand out as though to control her like a dog... 'I'LL DEAL WITH IT!' etc... [10/4/21, 1:14:43 pm] Oli: 'Not mad at all' she said... she owns the house etc. and he likes her social contacts (has few friends of his own and left his own wife, with whom he has 2 daughters - estranged - a wile ago)... quite odd... [10/4/21, 1:14:52 pm] Oli: But yes, that anecdote just touches the surface... 🤣 [10/4/21, 1:15:49 pm] Oli: We are off soon to lay the flowers then to meet up with a girlfriend of hers for a walk somewhere in Victoria. They are all in a funny world of titled Ladies etc who just seem to discuss the same people and go between London and the country. It's quite fun but sometimes a bit superficial... though my godmother is a genuine intellectual and I think picks the best people out of this crop so luckily they mostly have brains (her ex husband had no brain... so she got out)... [10/4/21, 1:15:58 pm] Oli: But yes, then sometime this pm we will be able to meet hopefully! [10/4/21, 1:18:24 pm] Oli: Also... she would get on well with your friends I think: [10/4/21, 1:18:25 pm] Oli: https://outlet.historicimages.com/products/ksa11349 [10/4/21, 1:18:35 pm] Oli: (drugs charge... but it was somehow dropped!) [10/4/21, 1:19:09 pm] Sam: Yes, I totally agree with what you’ve said here - I think that’s absolutely the way to go about it! If only we stockpiled nuance in the same way we stockpile covid vaccines 😭 I’m actually amazed at how successful the ‘gently pointing out the error of their ways’ strategy can be. When people don’t feel like they’re being harangued, they’re often actually remarkably open to reflecting on whether their behaviour is immoral. But haranguing them instantly induces them to pull up the drawbridge and deny all criticisms... [10/4/21, 1:19:26 pm] Sam: Sounds like an interesting night! [10/4/21, 1:19:32 pm] Sam: And morning [10/4/21, 1:20:15 pm] Sam: Sounds like you have a good plan for the day, and absolutely we can cross that bridge when we come to it (in terms of plans for the evening) [10/4/21, 1:20:31 pm] Oli: Quite!! [10/4/21, 1:20:39 pm] Oli: Agreed [10/4/21, 1:20:52 pm] Oli: If only everyone were as sane as us... 🤣😇 [10/4/21, 1:48:03 pm] Oli: Am in hysterics... silently... we are in the car now. He asked are we going in one car and she said ‘unless you want to go in your own one?’ And he drew a blank. What sane people [10/4/21, 1:48:13 pm] Oli: Obviously a few seconds away from a rage... [10/4/21, 1:48:15 pm] Oli: 🤣 [10/4/21, 1:50:01 pm] Oli: Now she asked me to double check what my weather app said and he thought she was asking her... and told her to wait... ‘It’s amazing how I can drive this car when you’re not in it... haven’t hit anything’ she said. Could write a book about this ‎[10/4/21, 1:50:15 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [10/4/21, 1:50:26 pm] Oli: ‘Where is there?’ He asks... fucking pissing myself. I thought I was mad [10/4/21, 1:52:17 pm] Oli: Asking him* ‎[10/4/21, 2:00:23 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [10/4/21, 2:00:29 pm] Oli: Fucking absolutely pissing myself [10/4/21, 2:00:31 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 ‎[10/4/21, 2:10:35 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [10/4/21, 2:10:53 pm] Oli: We’re walking down the street now and they’re arguing 🤣🤣 [10/4/21, 2:28:04 pm] Sam: Haha, day drinking? 😜 [10/4/21, 2:28:18 pm] Sam: I'm guessing you might be, lol ‎[10/4/21, 2:28:21 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [10/4/21, 2:28:23 pm] Oli: Think they are [10/4/21, 2:28:54 pm] Sam: The Phil is dead, long live the Phil [10/4/21, 2:29:07 pm] Sam: Ha, can't blame them, it's nice to be getting out of lockdown! [10/4/21, 2:32:19 pm] Oli: Love it ‎[10/4/21, 2:32:20 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [10/4/21, 2:32:31 pm] Oli: Sky asked to speak to us; we declined!! [10/4/21, 2:40:19 pm] Sam: I don't blame you [10/4/21, 2:40:30 pm] Sam: Sky is especially awful with their news coverage about this kinda thing [10/4/21, 2:41:10 pm] Sam: And you definitely don't want Aunt Hyacinth on there, waxing lyrical about how wonderful old Racist Great Uncle Phil was [10/4/21, 2:48:53 pm] Oli: Yes she was going to say that etc lol!! So luckily I saved us from that one! [10/4/21, 3:08:27 pm] Oli: Philip probably had his flaws didn’t he! I just thought what an amazing life but of course going off second hand info - apart from The godmother who vaguely knew him and thought he was lovely [10/4/21, 3:08:44 pm] Oli: But a nice spirit there with people paying tribute - lots of young people. Inspired by the Crown I wonder? [10/4/21, 4:09:14 pm] Sam: Definitely an amazing life, we can agree on that! [10/4/21, 4:09:30 pm] Sam: That’s always nice, whatever the occasion :) I’m glad you had a nice time! [10/4/21, 4:09:51 pm] Sam: Oh, I thought you’d love this incredibly subtle, English put-down from Corbyn: https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1380516221012049920?s=20 [10/4/21, 4:10:00 pm] Oli: Yes! At least there were lots of people out. Bumped into a few people from the country and suburbs who had also travelled up 🤣 [10/4/21, 4:10:08 pm] Sam: The first recorded instance of damning with a faint elegy 😅 [10/4/21, 4:10:13 pm] Sam: Oh, that’s nice! [10/4/21, 4:10:23 pm] Oli: Love that! Very subtle but I agree with him in principle [10/4/21, 6:32:30 pm] Oli: In Victoria now [10/4/21, 6:32:53 pm] Oli: Where are you and when free? Am free soon [10/4/21, 6:57:38 pm] Sam: Oh sorry I missed this! Are you up for coming to Bethnal Green? Or I don’t mind coming down to Battersea, though I’m not sure how well that would work if you’re staying at your godmother’s [10/4/21, 6:57:50 pm] Oli: Yes can come [10/4/21, 6:57:54 pm] Sam: As far as I can tell, with the pubs closed, those are basically the two options! [10/4/21, 6:57:55 pm] Oli: As have technically left her [10/4/21, 6:58:02 pm] Oli: I can drive theee as in my car [10/4/21, 6:58:05 pm] Oli: So good!! [10/4/21, 6:58:17 pm] Sam: Fantastic! Do you need my postcode? [10/4/21, 6:58:27 pm] Sam: Or I can share my location on a map - whatever works best [10/4/21, 7:04:51 pm] Oli: Ok postcode may be good. Just walking to car from Victoria [10/4/21, 7:04:55 pm] Oli: On Ebury st [10/4/21, 7:28:11 pm] Oli: About to leave now [10/4/21, 7:28:13 pm] Oli: Or so [10/4/21, 7:28:16 pm] Oli: To se off [10/4/21, 7:28:17 pm] Oli: Set [10/4/21, 7:28:18 pm] Oli: Soon [10/4/21, 7:32:48 pm] Sam: Aaaargh ffs, sorry, my WhatsApp notifications are broken [10/4/21, 7:32:51 pm] Sam: Sorry I missed those [10/4/21, 7:32:57 pm] Sam: E2 6DE :) [10/4/21, 7:33:12 pm] Sam: I’ll fix my notifications now, whatever’s going on with them [10/4/21, 7:33:25 pm] Sam: Feel free to call if you ever have trouble getting through to me, though [10/4/21, 7:34:49 pm] Oli: Ok will set off soon! That’s OK! [10/4/21, 7:40:32 pm] Sam: Perfecto! No rus HGH [10/4/21, 7:40:38 pm] Sam: No rush** haha [10/4/21, 7:40:43 pm] Oli: Just about to set off [10/4/21, 7:40:54 pm] Sam: Cool beans! How long do you reckon it’ll take you? [10/4/21, 7:41:08 pm] Sam: No need to be precise, but it’ll just give me an idea of whether I have time to dash to the corner shop etc ‎[10/4/21, 7:41:49 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [10/4/21, 7:41:56 pm] Oli: 27 mins so let’s say 35 [10/4/21, 7:42:10 pm] Sam: Brillo pads, that’s much more than enough time 👍 [10/4/21, 7:42:14 pm] Sam: See ya soon! [10/4/21, 7:42:27 pm] Sam: Not sure about parking on this end btw, but I’m sure you’ll be able to figure something out [10/4/21, 8:10:03 pm] Oli: Yes that’ll be fine! [10/4/21, 8:11:26 pm] Oli: 10 mins late be there in 10 mins [10/4/21, 8:18:46 pm] Sam: No probs, no rush at all! [10/4/21, 8:18:57 pm] Sam: Raz is panicking at the news that we have a guest and is trying to shower quickly [10/4/21, 8:18:58 pm] Oli: Just arriving [10/4/21, 8:19:02 pm] Oli: lol!! [10/4/21, 8:19:13 pm] Sam: Haha, cool, well let me know when you’re here! [10/4/21, 8:19:26 pm] Sam: It’s flat 21, and it’s the big modern building with the metal gates [10/4/21, 8:19:33 pm] Sam: And the inner courtyard-y thing [10/4/21, 8:20:09 pm] Sam: There are two entrances, one at the western end of Claredale St on the south side, another at the western end of Sheldon Place on the north side [10/4/21, 8:20:21 pm] Sam: I’m giving an absurd level of detail b/c people seem to have surprising difficulty finding us [10/4/21, 8:20:29 pm] Oli: Am on mangord at [10/4/21, 8:20:35 pm] Oli: Manford st [10/4/21, 8:20:37 pm] Oli: Is that right [10/4/21, 8:20:39 pm] Sam: ‎Location: https://maps.google.com/?q=51.530762,-0.062810 [10/4/21, 8:20:55 pm] Sam: Yeah, you just need to go to one of those entrances I just described [10/4/21, 8:20:58 pm] Sam: These ^ [10/4/21, 8:21:13 pm] Sam: Those are obv pedestrian entrances, not for a car - you’ll need to park up first [10/4/21, 8:22:06 pm] Oli: Ok [10/4/21, 8:22:52 pm] Oli: Will get there in the end [10/4/21, 8:26:02 pm] Sam: Haha, let me know if you have any difficulty! [10/4/21, 8:26:33 pm] Oli: Right [10/4/21, 8:26:35 pm] Oli: Progress [10/4/21, 8:26:41 pm] Oli: I know where claredale st is now and parked the car [10/4/21, 8:26:44 pm] Oli: So am coming on foot now ‎[10/4/21, 8:28:19 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [10/4/21, 8:28:20 pm] Oli: Is it this [10/4/21, 8:29:07 pm] Sam: Oh brilliant [10/4/21, 8:29:11 pm] Sam: Yes I think so! [10/4/21, 8:29:11 pm] Oli: Is it? [10/4/21, 8:29:12 pm] Oli: Lmao [10/4/21, 8:29:13 pm] Oli: Oh good [10/4/21, 8:29:15 pm] Sam: I’ve never seen that sign before [10/4/21, 8:29:15 pm] Oli: I’ll ring again [10/4/21, 8:29:21 pm] Sam: But it has the right numbers on it 🤔 ‎[10/4/21, 8:29:28 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [10/4/21, 8:29:29 pm] Oli: This? [10/4/21, 8:29:34 pm] Sam: Yeah! That’s it [10/4/21, 8:29:38 pm] Sam: Are you ringing 21? ‎[10/4/21, 8:29:39 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [10/4/21, 8:29:41 pm] Oli: Ah yes [10/4/21, 8:29:43 pm] Sam: It should definitely work [10/4/21, 8:29:52 pm] Sam: I know someone rang the bell just an hour or so ago ‎[10/4/21, 8:30:03 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [10/4/21, 8:30:05 pm] Oli: Trying it [10/4/21, 8:30:06 pm] Sam: Try once more and if for whatever reason it doesn’t work, I’ll come down [10/4/21, 8:30:14 pm] Sam: Hmm weird [10/4/21, 8:30:15 pm] Oli: lol the electrics [10/4/21, 8:30:19 pm] Sam: I’ll come down, gimme 30 secs! [10/4/21, 8:30:20 pm] Oli: Or maybe there’s another entrance [10/4/21, 8:30:22 pm] Oli: Oh ok lol [10/4/21, 8:30:24 pm] Sam: Maybe the other entrance works but not that omen [10/4/21, 8:30:28 pm] Sam: Wait no [10/4/21, 8:30:30 pm] Sam: Don’t go to the other [10/4/21, 8:30:34 pm] Sam: Just hold on for 30 secs [10/4/21, 8:30:34 pm] Oli: 👍 and [10/4/21, 8:30:34 pm] Oli: Ok [10/4/21, 8:30:37 pm] Sam: I’ll come get you [10/4/21, 8:30:37 pm] Oli: I will stay here [10/4/21, 8:30:39 pm] Oli: 🤣 [10/4/21, 8:31:53 pm] Oli: Think I’ve worked it out [10/4/21, 8:32:05 pm] Oli: This says 1-5 copper field news and 1-39 Claremont court [10/4/21, 8:32:18 pm] Oli: You may not be Claremont court but copper field news and 21 is elsewhere? [10/4/21, 8:32:21 pm] Oli: Either way I’ll wait [10/4/21, 11:05:06 pm] Sam: https://twitter.com/Sturgeons_Law/status/1380357920454418432?s=19 [11/4/21, 12:39:53 am] Oli: Nice to see you. Love to all xx [11/4/21, 12:42:30 am] Sam: Lovely to see you too! Really nice to get to chat properly (and such a funny coincidence with Lewis!) [11/4/21, 1:23:41 am] Oli: Yes, you too; I greatly enjoyed it. Nice coincidence. Fun evening overall. See you soon! 🙏😇 [11/4/21, 11:32:37 am] Sam: I'm glad you did! Sounds like Raz (and Lewis) really liked you, so I'm glad you got on so well with the whole little household we've got over here, haha [11/4/21, 11:32:55 am] Sam: Hope you had a relatively uneventful journey back? [11/4/21, 1:46:48 pm] Oli: Yes, it was nice to see them both! I bet you have lots of stimulating conversations with Raz; last night was great fun! A good, easy drive back thank you as the roads were virtually empty! [11/4/21, 3:22:50 pm] Oli: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-56707030 [11/4/21, 3:23:00 pm] Oli: This man's partner was my godmother (one of many) and he was my mother's... [11/4/21, 3:23:11 pm] Oli: I met his son-in-law at a party at theirs last year and we were laughing about violent criminals... [11/4/21, 3:23:21 pm] Oli: (just seen this on the news...) [11/4/21, 3:23:46 pm] Oli: (not the one I stayed with but this one is potentially dead having been stabbed critically by the son)... jesus... [11/4/21, 3:27:42 pm] Oli: All of these deaths at the moment! [11/4/21, 3:35:48 pm] Oli: apparently grandpa has been told what happened so will find out soon... maybe an embittered son in law... lol [11/4/21, 3:35:51 pm] Oli: !! [11/4/21, 4:13:47 pm] Oli: Step son rather than son in law... wrong term! I am useless at the technicalities [11/4/21, 9:26:09 pm] Oli: He was on alcohol and some other drugs (not sure what) but there had been something brewing for a while. Stole the car after having done the deed and was caught a few hours later, having stabbed himself. [11/4/21, 9:26:29 pm] Oli: What drama! [11/4/21, 11:13:09 pm] Sam: Yeah, Raz has been a great flatmate and we definitely have lots of interesting chats! I think he may be heading in the direction of dating Lewis, since he had him stay the night twice in the last week (he never normally does that; guys seem to come for sex and leave right afterwards) and in fact he’s stayed well into the mornings, hanging out and listening to music... I’m happy for Raz, b/c he seems like a lovely guy 🙂 Also Raz really seemed to warm to you! He was saying how he’d love to have you round for a drink again :) Apparently he heard your voice and thought “oh god, it’s another generic Tory gay” (his words, not mine!) but, after talking to you properly, regretted that snap judgement And wow, Jesus Christ that’s unbelievable that your godmother went out with that guy! Good thing they never spent a night at a hotel! His error was trying to kill himself by stabbing himself - I imagine you’d render yourself unconscious before you could administer the coup de grâce 😵 ‎[11/4/21, 11:23:25 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [11/4/21, 11:23:29 pm] Oli: Now on pina coladas [11/4/21, 11:23:35 pm] Oli: A Ukrainian flat mate came over to make them [11/4/21, 11:23:40 pm] Oli: But messed up as pissed [11/4/21, 11:23:45 pm] Oli: So put more coconut milk into it [11/4/21, 11:23:51 pm] Oli: Liked your last message! [11/4/21, 11:24:09 pm] Oli: I liked Raz. People often think I am a stereotypical ‘Tory’ whatever but are then surprised when they have a convo with me [11/4/21, 11:24:20 pm] Oli: Which is always the way. Have convos with people and work out that they’re individuals [11/4/21, 11:24:32 pm] Oli: Yes that’s funny how he’s with Lewis [11/4/21, 11:24:43 pm] Oli: I think he’s a nice guy; they’re both nice guys so that’s very good news [11/4/21, 11:24:55 pm] Oli: I’d love to come round again I liked it so much [11/4/21, 11:25:13 pm] Oli: I will tell you one day properly the full extent of the madness about my parents etc it is too much to deliver on demand [11/4/21, 11:25:35 pm] Oli: And yes poor guy being stabbed and total lunacy lol but this is the mad world [11/4/21, 11:26:11 pm] Oli: Raz is a really nice person to talk to with lots of personality [11/4/21, 11:26:30 pm] Oli: You too. Was nice to meet you and chat. I enjoyed it [11/4/21, 11:29:16 pm] Oli: 😇 [12/4/21, 11:58:36 pm] Sam: Haha, as per usual! Glad you had a good time [12/4/21, 11:59:18 pm] Sam: Cheers 🍹🍹 Good health (a pipe dream for both of us!) [13/4/21, 12:02:14 am] Sam: I’m glad you guys got on so well! I thought you were quite different on the surface, but it seems like you were kindred spirits at heart... not that it would’ve mattered if you weren’t, but Raz is a great flatmate and a great friend, and especially under lockdown conditions, when we inevitably end up both hanging out with whoever comes around, it’s always a nice thing when it works out! [13/4/21, 12:03:15 am] Sam: Yeah, quite right :) That’s why I do my best not to typecast people - admittedly I sometimes fail to live up to that aim [13/4/21, 12:04:24 am] Sam: Yeah, I feel the same way, I’m glad to see Raz has found someone who seems just straightforwardly nice and sweet (which is a rarity for him... god, if only you knew the half of it) [13/4/21, 12:05:09 am] Sam: He’s insistent that they’re not dating, but they definitely are 😁 [13/4/21, 12:06:33 am] Sam: Aww, I’m really glad about that! You’re absolutely welcome here whenever :) and I’d love to hear the full story of your parents! At least I think I would - I’m mildly apprehensive about what I’m letting myself in for 😳😳 [13/4/21, 12:07:39 am] Sam: Hope you have a nice week, let me know when you’re around and we can set the world to rights, to borrow Benji’s all-time favourite phrase [15/4/21, 12:12:51 am] Oli: Thank you! I am now in Wiltshire for a few weeks or so, which is nice. Funny of you to remember Benji's favourite phrase. I'm not quite sure to what extent he actually does set the world to rights; I suppose that depends on what one thinks of his reference library and general approach to such questions. I think there are a very significant set of heteronormative and unreflectively supportive-of-the-status-quo-of-the-early-20th-century (Britain) set of books in that library, whose pages are more well read than the others! [15/4/21, 12:13:13 am] Oli: Yes, maybe we'll both follow Stravros off this earth soon... [15/4/21, 12:13:22 am] Oli: Oh well... we have to enjoy the ride! [15/4/21, 12:14:51 am] Oli: Well, yes, I think there is a lot of immaterial difference to most humans that must be transcended to facilitate proper exchange. It's harder to transcend when people regard such differences as material. [15/4/21, 12:16:07 am] Oli: Perhaps we have some innate tendency to put people into categories based on salient traits etc. (surely we do) and as people capable of sophisticated thought (or meta-representational thought, at any rate, theory of mind, etc.) we have a 'duty' (not trying to be Kantian or Prussian!) to seek to look beyond these traits and find the person within, the flame within! [15/4/21, 12:16:28 am] Oli: Raz seems very well-read and interesting to talk to. I look forward to more such chats with him. He is very good to have in lockdown indeed! [15/4/21, 12:17:14 am] Oli: Sounds good and I hope it works out. He strikes me as having a strong personality so perhaps clashes etc. can occur as a result? [15/4/21, 12:17:29 am] Oli: Or maybe he's just been unlucky? [15/4/21, 12:17:43 am] Oli: Raz and L both seem like such sweet people!! [15/4/21, 12:18:37 am] Oli: Well, compared to most people's lives, or to a life of abject poverty or intellectual deprivation, I'm sure it's not that bad but we all have our own unique trials and tribulations! [15/4/21, 12:18:52 am] Oli: Looking forward to the next catch up... 🥂 [18/4/21, 1:12:46 am] Oli: I am amazed you have been able to entertain such a long discussion with v. H (we call him von Hall... as an inside joke; v. H for short; he is unaware of this...)... [18/4/21, 1:13:17 am] Oli: 😈🥂 [18/4/21, 1:13:35 am] Oli: One of my friends calls him Bungalow Hall as he says he's got no upper story... [18/4/21, 1:13:53 am] Oli: storey* [18/4/21, 1:15:35 am] Oli: Though I do not like his gossiping (hence why I have no qualms doing the same re him) so tend to just keep a distance and only indulge online if I have to! [18/4/21, 1:15:36 am] Oli: All a bit like treading on egg shells sometimes... [18/4/21, 1:16:55 am] Oli: He has a coterie of frauds surrounding him, so I feel sorry for him. [18/4/21, 9:40:40 am] Oli: Just reading your FB replies... I was half asleep when reacting anyway lol! I was more surprised at your Hahn connection as had figured that you most likely meant traumatised in a benign way! He was, debatably, a paedophile in the strict sense I believe as in one who didn't indulge his urges. I remember you saying your grandfather went there at the same time. Maybe that is something to do with the connection. Lots of those German families are interrelated! [18/4/21, 9:42:58 am] Oli: He had lots of militaristic/spartan methods. Wonder how good they were/are in truth. [18/4/21, 9:44:52 am] Oli: We are having people to lunch today (probably illegal... could be outside and then legal!) so will be slightly sporadic this early am but hoping you have a good day! [18/4/21, 9:57:44 am] Sam: Hahaha, Bungalow Hall is an absolutely brilliant name! Inspired 👏 I did think it was an interesting conversation I had with him yesterday. His determined obliviousness to racism in the US is quite something, but once you make peace with the fact that this is not someone who cares about the truth – it's more important to him that he has a comforting imagined vision of the world to live in – then it's a bit easier. It was interesting to hear his perspective on some things, not in a genuine philosophical sense (i.e. that anything he said was true or insightful) but in an anthropological sense (in that it shed some light to me on how certain people think, and how they understand the world) As for Hahn, I didn't realise he was a paedophile - wow! Perhaps I did, or should have, meant 'traumatised' in the strict sense. All I did know, as it stands, was that it's an extremely old-fashioned and pretty brutal school. I didn't remember if I'd told you the family connection - it was that my granddad went there at the same time, but also that there was some connection between his family and Hahn's. I think he, like Prince Philip (I think?), had originally gone to some German school he'd established and then migrated over to Scotland when he set up Gordonstoun. It was a small gang of them at the time, I think, lots of whom had some kind of personal or family connection to Kurt Hahn IIRC. But I'm just vaguely remembering something my dad told me about at a bar in Greece like 3 or 4 years ago, so I may be hazy on the details... As for the 'militaristic / spartan methods', that's the funny thing - I think it was founded on some principles from Plato's dialogues, so _supposedly_ that would make it more Athenian in its ethos, but in actuality 'Spartan' is much, much more apt... I don't think I could go to a school like that, and from everything I've heard, it utterly broke Prince Charles (a kind of pathetic figure to begin with) and that's why the next generation went to Eton And nice, hope you have a good lunch! I wouldn't worry too much about the illegality at this point - it's _basically_ over now, isn't it, the lockdown? 🤷‍♂️ We're on the home straight, in any case [18/4/21, 10:54:53 am] Oli: Yes, Hall and his ilk are the demi-monde (if such a thing even exists as it begs the question of the existence of objective/normative understandings of societal stratum/conflates their position with their legitimacy). Good point. Very good to observe people (EVERYONE) and work out how they think. Do you think there are strict types of people? I've asked the question incorrectly now and answered for myself... do you think there are types of people? I am not sure that there are 'strict' types of people but there are certainly overlapping Venn diagrams. I suppose we all betray (of course we do!) our own contexts etc. AT A PARTICULAR MOMENT (yes, people change; I hate it when people do not recognise this) with our views. I think I am in the same boat as you regarding social justice and its implementation/the efficacy of preaching such publicly but I don't feel settled, yet anyway, on how such concepts are to be understood in our context. Hall is funny to catch out as he's always going on about social class in the colloquial (and indeed may I say very misunderstood) sense (i.e. 'ooh you're posh as you have the right ancestors' or 'ah you say x for p instead of y') and yet, when someone else brings it up and uses it, in a similarly misguided sense, in a way that he perceives detrimental to his desired place in the world, he completely denies its existence at all (despite the fact that it is latent, and often manifest, in him most seconds of the day). He's the most tolerable of his circle of people. Some are 'genuinely grand' in the colloquial sense and others are wannabes but they are all united under an umbrella of psychological conflict and pomposity. He is probably too ignorant on the question of US racism to answer properly (surely). I believe in following Wittgenstein when one is largely ignorant: do not speak! [18/4/21, 10:59:21 am] Oli: Not sure to what extent he was a paedophile. I should not say that as firmly as I do but he had certain Platonic ideals etc. that nowadays would be perhaps overlapping in some relevant Venn diagram. As far as I know he did not act on any such urges, should they have existed. Yes, it is quite funny how he was inspired by Platonic philosophy and came up with a neo-Spartan (social Darwinistic?) establishment. I think he believed that overly classical educations make effete/ineffective people. Philip surely had the same attitude. Is this a particularly German worldview? To what extent to national traits exist in people? I suppose they do but I am not fond of writing individuals off so easily. Hahn was a civil servant and was private secretary to Prince Max of Baden, in which capacity he attended Versailles 1919 etc. etc. With Max he founded a school called Salem (in a castle... not sure if it belonged to his colleague). Nazi persecution meant that he had to leave. He was imprisoned but MacDonald, PM, secured his release. Gordonstoun was born from this! Lots of the old Salem pupils followed him (Philip was one - another was Mark Arnold-Foster). It is an interesting story. [18/4/21, 11:00:29 am] Oli: I am glad that we're on the same page re lockdown lol. It is basically over, yes, from what I ignorantly know (oxymoron? lol!). What about all of these variants? Oh well... fingers crossed! [30/4/21, 7:11:21 pm] Sam: Oh good, sorry I missed your last messages! I’m too crazily busy to process them right now but I’ll read and reply later - but I just saw this and thought it might interest you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Successor_ideology This so brilliantly sums up what I, as someone who considers myself left-wing or at least very liberal, find horribly uncomfortable about ‘SJW’ psychology/culture [30/4/21, 7:11:33 pm] Sam: Oh god* I meant, hahah [30/4/21, 7:12:34 pm] Sam: This in particular: “authoritarian Utopianism that masquerades as liberal humanism while usurping it from within” [30/4/21, 7:13:57 pm] Sam: And I find the ‘Criticism’ section on that Wikipedia page incredibly weak - not so much criticism as simply restating the parameters of the opposing view ‎[30/4/21, 10:01:07 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/4/21, 10:03:53 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [30/4/21, 10:04:46 pm] Oli: Yes, I know the feeling well; some people seem totally oblivious to their ridiculousness (I suppose that’s a given unless one hams it up on purpose)! Just finishing off an essay on an aspect of negligence law then can think about your interesting points above! [30/4/21, 10:04:52 pm] Oli: Hope all is well with you? 🙏 [30/4/21, 10:06:47 pm] Oli: I wonder whether to feel sorry for these people or not! ‎[2/5/21, 2:54:03 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[2/5/21, 2:54:08 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [2/5/21, 2:54:25 pm] Oli: Love our flagrant breach of the rules for grandpa’s 90th [2/5/21, 2:54:27 pm] Oli: 🤣 ‎[25/5/21, 11:20:00 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [25/5/21, 11:20:21 am] Sam: Nice!! Hope you didn’t kill him 😂 (Nah I’m kidding, you’re almost certainly fine 🤷‍♂️) [25/5/21, 4:19:06 pm] Oli: Just at airport on way to Portugal for a few days! [25/5/21, 4:19:57 pm] Oli: Quite odd to have a ladies’ man as a sibling I agree! Lol! [25/5/21, 4:20:09 pm] Oli: And the party went well - no covid cases so all fine! [25/5/21, 4:20:20 pm] Oli: Hope all is well with you! Can catch up when I return! ‎[26/5/21, 7:14:08 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [31/5/21, 1:30:58 pm] Oli: Am in London Fri 4th to Mon 7th or thereabouts. Staying with cousin in Nine Elms. Maybe see you sometime around then. Xx [4/6/21, 11:41:24 am] Oli: Let me know what’s happening with you! Am up this afternoon. Driving up. Battersea. We are out to supper on Sat but otherwise free. [4/6/21, 11:41:32 am] Oli: I can always make a deputation to you! [4/6/21, 11:41:38 am] Oli: Perhaps you are in Suffolk [4/6/21, 11:41:40 am] Oli: Will see! [4/6/21, 5:19:39 pm] Oli: At the Ned tonight [4/6/21, 5:19:44 pm] Oli: Will keep you in loop [4/6/21, 6:38:05 pm] Sam: Oh, sorry I missed these, I’ve been so busy! Let me just check with Raz in case he’s got anyone round tonight, and I’ll get back to you (if you’re still around!) [4/6/21, 6:38:31 pm] Oli: Yes we are wondering like nomads atm [4/6/21, 6:38:59 pm] Oli: In ‘the city’ - stinks of commerce 😈 [4/6/21, 7:36:19 pm] Sam: Raz is very much up for it! [4/6/21, 7:36:37 pm] Sam: “Although he will make me very sad now, because he went to school with the boy that I love...” [4/6/21, 7:37:08 pm] Sam: (who recently made it clear that he only wanted to be casual - despite being the first guy Raz wanted to date in more than a decade) [4/6/21, 7:38:55 pm] Oli: I was only at his school for A Levels [4/6/21, 7:39:24 pm] Oli: I went to St Columba’s Dublin and Portora hitherto- he’ll be pleased to know [4/6/21, 7:39:36 pm] Oli: Raz is a decent guy [4/6/21, 7:39:40 pm] Oli: I have much time for Raz [4/6/21, 7:39:56 pm] Oli: We’re out to supper with some boring financiers but may come round later. Will let you know xx [4/6/21, 7:59:06 pm] Oli: 😢 [4/6/21, 8:04:43 pm] Oli: I could hear you [4/6/21, 8:04:45 pm] Oli: Signal fucks up [4/6/21, 8:04:51 pm] Oli: Anyway we are at This place ‎[4/6/21, 8:05:00 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [4/6/21, 8:05:05 pm] Oli: And maybe come round later [4/6/21, 8:05:06 pm] Sam: Oh right! Sorry! [4/6/21, 8:05:08 pm] Oli: My cousin and her boyfriend [4/6/21, 8:05:10 pm] Sam: Yeah I know it well [4/6/21, 8:05:26 pm] Sam: Literally fucking _everything_ at that place has meat ... even the chips are cooked in beef fat [4/6/21, 8:05:33 pm] Sam: It’s a vegetarian’s worst nightmare [4/6/21, 8:05:44 pm] Oli: Oh dear [4/6/21, 8:05:46 pm] Oli: I don’t like meat [4/6/21, 8:05:48 pm] Oli: Only chicken [4/6/21, 8:05:53 pm] Sam: Anyway, yeah, no pressure - let me know if you plan to swing by, and feel free to bring anyone else who’s around! [4/6/21, 8:05:53 pm] Oli: I shall try and find something sensible [4/6/21, 8:06:13 pm] Oli: Ok will keep you in the loop. They’re quite Tory gentry types but can be fun after a few glasses [4/6/21, 8:06:17 pm] Sam: Haha, best of luck getting a bucket of fried chicken 🤞 [4/6/21, 8:06:18 pm] Oli: So will be a nice evening! [4/6/21, 8:06:25 pm] Oli: 🤣 [4/6/21, 8:06:47 pm] Sam: Raz is surprisingly tolerant (and I’m just plain old _tolerant_) of people like that [4/6/21, 8:06:56 pm] Oli: Me too. One has to be! [4/6/21, 8:07:11 pm] Oli: And I think it’ll do them good to see some real people [4/6/21, 8:07:13 pm] Oli: 🤣 [4/6/21, 8:07:17 pm] Oli: As far as any of us are ‎[4/6/21, 8:08:06 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [4/6/21, 8:08:09 pm] Oli: This is hilarious [4/6/21, 8:08:14 pm] Oli: ‘New world’ on wine list [4/6/21, 8:08:17 pm] Oli: How arrogant [4/6/21, 8:09:23 pm] Sam: Ha, I’d have imagined the people who go to that pub were probably so old and out of date that they haven’t quite heard the news about Columbus yet [4/6/21, 8:11:18 pm] Oli: Terrible old white fuckers lol [4/6/21, 8:11:34 pm] Oli: Will keep you in the loop. As it stands we will be around later on xx [4/6/21, 10:09:09 pm] Oli: Pls Save me [4/6/21, 10:09:10 pm] Oli: Lol [4/6/21, 10:09:13 pm] Oli: Must escape soon [4/6/21, 10:09:15 pm] Oli: 🤣 [4/6/21, 11:06:52 pm] Sam: Postcode is E2 6DE - sorry I missed your texts!! Been busy texting people [4/6/21, 11:07:22 pm] Oli: Ok! Coming xx [4/6/21, 11:08:43 pm] Oli: Darling [4/6/21, 11:08:49 pm] Oli: Uber 1 MuN wway [4/6/21, 11:08:51 pm] Oli: Min [4/6/21, 11:08:57 pm] Oli: Coming with female Babington cousin [4/6/21, 11:09:08 pm] Oli: She shares our views [4/6/21, 11:09:08 pm] Oli: Xx [4/6/21, 11:10:12 pm] Oli: Were on way [4/6/21, 11:10:13 pm] Oli: X [4/6/21, 11:10:35 pm] Sam: Oh gosh, you’re very close! [4/6/21, 11:10:43 pm] Sam: Haha I’ll rush to tidy up then [4/6/21, 11:11:17 pm] Oli: We’ve dumped the Torybcuhts [4/6/21, 11:11:20 pm] Oli: Cunts [4/6/21, 11:11:21 pm] Oli: Xx [4/6/21, 11:15:43 pm] Oli: My cousin is in an Avis ice relationship [4/6/21, 11:15:45 pm] Oli: Bayside [4/6/21, 11:15:55 pm] Oli: Abusive [4/6/21, 11:15:58 pm] Oli: Can I pls help her [4/6/21, 11:16:00 pm] Oli: When we arrive [4/6/21, 11:16:03 pm] Oli: Pls help he [4/6/21, 11:16:05 pm] Oli: Xx [4/6/21, 11:16:24 pm] Oli: The boyfriend is homophobic [4/6/21, 11:19:47 pm] Oli: We are 5 mins away xx [4/6/21, 11:25:32 pm] Oli: What. Umber r u [4/6/21, 11:25:34 pm] Oli: We are outside ‎[4/6/21, 11:25:43 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [4/6/21, 11:25:52 pm] Oli: ‎Missed voice call [4/6/21, 11:26:03 pm] Oli: ‎Missed voice call [4/6/21, 11:27:57 pm] Oli: We are outside [4/6/21, 11:27:59 pm] Oli: 21 [5/6/21, 2:50:02 am] Oli: Thank you [5/6/21, 2:50:23 am] Oli: Hope you helped the cousin with abisive Irelationship [5/6/21, 2:50:39 am] Oli: Maybe you can join us At wolesley tkmorte [5/6/21, 2:50:42 am] Oli: Tomorrow [5/6/21, 2:57:56 am] Sam: Raz seems very keen to do it, so I guess let’s do it! I’m extremely poor at the moment (relying on my parents’ money while I start my company and I feel bad spending too much of it) so I’ll warn you I’ll be very cheap!! [5/6/21, 2:58:30 am] Oli: We are all cheap darling xxi [5/6/21, 2:58:43 am] Oli: Will keep you in the loop. Xx [5/6/21, 3:03:23 am] Sam: Hahahaha “I was constantly trying to record Honour speaking to send it to Murray, because I was like, ‘Murray, you have _never_ sound someone so posh’” [5/6/21, 3:04:44 am] Oli: Yes she eclipses even I [5/6/21, 3:04:47 am] Oli: Love it [5/6/21, 3:05:02 am] Oli: Who is Murray xx [5/6/21, 5:21:43 am] Oli: We are only off to bed now [5/6/21, 5:21:50 am] Oli: Speak later on xx [5/6/21, 12:20:12 pm] Oli: Thank you for a lovely evening. Xx [5/6/21, 12:49:41 pm] Sam: Ah sorry, I couldn’t seem to accept your call for some reason, it wouldn’t connect [5/6/21, 12:49:46 pm] Sam: But what’s up? ‎[5/6/21, 12:49:58 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [5/6/21, 12:50:08 pm] Sam: And yes thanks for a lovely evening! ‎[5/6/21, 12:50:12 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[5/6/21, 12:50:28 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[5/6/21, 12:50:59 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [5/6/21, 12:51:01 pm] Oli: Yes! [5/6/21, 12:51:02 pm] Oli: A summary [5/6/21, 12:51:08 pm] Oli: Of what happened after our visit [5/6/21, 12:51:28 pm] Sam: Haha, absolutely brilliant! She should’ve gone with the cocaine dealer honestly [5/6/21, 12:51:37 pm] Sam: Oh right, he’s gone for good! Incredible [5/6/21, 12:51:59 pm] Oli: Though he’s got a van load of stuff in her house in Cornwall [5/6/21, 12:52:03 pm] Oli: So may not be a clean break [5/6/21, 12:52:58 pm] Oli: Glad you both had a good evening too! Was fun! [5/6/21, 1:08:18 pm] Oli: We are off To Brunch with friends in Green Park [5/6/21, 1:08:28 pm] Oli: Keep you posted. Maybe see you tomorrow or some time xx [5/6/21, 1:40:29 pm] Sam: You too! I’d love that [5/6/21, 1:40:37 pm] Sam: Btw I gave Raz your number, since he asked for it [5/6/21, 1:40:46 pm] Sam: He also apparently thinks your cousin is ‘hot’ 😳😳 [5/6/21, 1:41:08 pm] Oli: Good! Like Raz nice guy. Glad we may stay in touch that way too! [5/6/21, 1:41:14 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 [5/6/21, 1:41:18 pm] Oli: Many do! ‎[5/6/21, 1:49:40 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[5/6/21, 1:49:57 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [5/6/21, 1:50:04 pm] Oli: Have a nice view of the town here! [6/6/21, 2:02:21 pm] Oli: What’re you all doing today? Good morning btw just up! [6/6/21, 3:18:36 pm] Oli: Overheard at last night's dinner. Honor to her father. 'Do introduce me to the Aga Khan; it'd be a good back-up option.' 🤣 [6/6/21, 3:18:44 pm] Oli: I should set up a page with all of these anecdotes! [6/6/21, 3:21:38 pm] Sam: Hahaha brilliant!! She definitely needs some kind of backup option by the sound of it 😂 Also, looks like a lovely view - where is that? [6/6/21, 3:22:02 pm] Oli: ‎Location: https://maps.google.com/?q=51.482624,-0.134673 [6/6/21, 3:22:12 pm] Oli: The new development by US embassy [6/6/21, 3:22:51 pm] Oli: Embassy Gardens. Quite fun! A bit inconvenient with all of the security and being over the other bit of river but otherwise Ok and nice [6/6/21, 3:23:36 pm] Sam: Oh, no way, that’s where my friend Guy Griffin lives! Wait I think we might’ve discussed that on Friday... or maybe that was someone else Either way, I’m very familiar with the place (and the security)! [6/6/21, 3:24:03 pm] Oli: Think you either discussed it with someone else or I can’t remember 🤣 [6/6/21, 3:24:14 pm] Oli: What’re you all up to tonight [6/6/21, 3:26:27 pm] Oli: We may go out to restaurant duke of York sq or somewhere [6/6/21, 3:26:30 pm] Oli: Still deciding [6/6/21, 3:32:24 pm] Oli: Would be fun to reconvene. Unless we tired you both out or if you’re both occupied xx [6/6/21, 3:49:10 pm] Oli: Or the Wolesley. My friend Daniel Lismore may join us. And Henrietta Rous, another family friend from west country. Will keep you in loop [6/6/21, 3:49:32 pm] Oli: You'd like the company. We are waiting for Honor's ex chap to come and pick up the rest of his crap from the flat [6/6/21, 4:00:49 pm] Oli: or we can do post prandial with you [6/6/21, 4:00:53 pm] Oli: either way lmk. ‎[6/6/21, 4:59:37 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [6/6/21, 6:03:24 pm] Oli: We are at the red lion. [6/6/21, 6:03:35 pm] Oli: Andrew Mitchell and David Davis walked in [6/6/21, 6:03:37 pm] Oli: And sat next to us [6/6/21, 6:03:56 pm] Oli: I asked to the waiter what does he think about people who don’t dismount from their bicycles [6/6/21, 6:04:02 pm] Oli: 🤣 [6/6/21, 10:57:50 pm] Oli: Do you want to come over [7/6/21, 12:12:43 am] Sam: Oh gosh, sorry, I’ve been so busy - I locked my phone away for a while so as not to distract myself, which in hindsight probably wasn’t a good idea 😬 Sorry I missed this! [7/6/21, 12:22:29 am] Oli: That is Ok [7/6/21, 12:22:35 am] Oli: We are off to Henrietta’s [7/6/21, 12:22:37 am] Oli: Then Honor’s [7/6/21, 12:23:05 am] Oli: I presumed you had been busy!! ‎[7/6/21, 12:31:58 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [7/6/21, 12:32:04 am] Oli: Never seen so many phones in one place [7/6/21, 12:32:05 am] Oli: 🤣 ‎[7/6/21, 2:13:51 am] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[7/6/21, 4:09:51 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [7/6/21, 5:07:44 am] Oli: Fun party but lots of drama engineered by the cousin’s ex who is trying to wangle his way back in and is libelling us [7/6/21, 5:07:48 am] Oli: Must update you. [7/6/21, 5:45:09 am] Oli: The boyfriend (ex...) has maligned us both. He’s ingratiating himself with Honor’s mother, my aunt, who is trying to disown me now and saying that I am introducing her daughter to people of ill repute who can’t, verbatim, wait for this fucking corker, ‘manage their estates properly.’ ... Yes... that’s right... you read that properly. Estates in the landed sense. I’m introducing her daughter to people who happen to have had the misfortune of inheriting estates they can’t manage, whereas she can manage her own and thus I’m putting her in bad company. Madness. That aside. He’s claiming that I’ve engineered the break up. LOL!! I’ve been out of the f**$ flat for most of the day when she’s been sorting him out and texting him telling him to leave her alone. He can’t get the message and is trying to wrangle his way back in for the nth time vis the mother, who’s been sending me abusive/horrible messages at 4AM. YES. Great... I’m going mad... !! [7/6/21, 5:47:14 am] Oli: (This is very abridged sans many insults from both the ex boyfriend, abusive to her, and the mad neurotic mother) [7/6/21, 8:14:57 pm] Oli: Just left Annabel’s [7/6/21, 8:14:58 pm] Oli: With Honor [7/6/21, 8:15:02 pm] Oli: At Berkeley Sq [7/6/21, 8:15:05 pm] Oli: Are you both around [7/6/21, 10:11:56 pm] Sam: Oh dammit sorry, no, I’m at Kieran’s (my ex) [7/6/21, 10:12:11 pm] Sam: And wow, I’ll read that long message a bit later but it looks very wild! [7/6/21, 10:16:06 pm] Oli: Hope goes well [7/6/21, 10:16:14 pm] Oli: The mother has apologised thankfully! [7/6/21, 10:16:16 pm] Oli: Have a nice evening [9/6/21, 2:09:54 pm] Oli: Am off to Wiltshire today for supper but back up Thurs for a week or so; if you are around we could reconvene! [11/6/21, 8:00:51 pm] Sam: Well, my ex Kieran has asked me round for dinner tonight, so you’re very welcome to join (I appreciate it may be somewhat short notice, haha) [11/6/21, 9:29:47 pm] Oli: Yes I’ll come later on. [11/6/21, 9:29:59 pm] Oli: Am in Chinatown but can come later on ‎[11/6/21, 9:32:42 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[11/6/21, 9:32:49 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [11/6/21, 9:32:58 pm] Oli: Can come along later on if you’re all there! Xx [11/6/21, 9:34:38 pm] Sam: What kinda time? It depends a bit when, because I don’t want to have a terribly late night [11/6/21, 9:35:08 pm] Sam: It would probably have to be more or less now, lol [11/6/21, 9:52:21 pm] Oli: Yes it will be more or less now! [11/6/21, 9:53:58 pm] Oli: Where is it? [11/6/21, 9:54:19 pm] Sam: 45 Hilldrop Road, N7 0JE [11/6/21, 9:54:25 pm] Sam: What’s your ETA do you think? [11/6/21, 9:55:15 pm] Oli: Would be 10.30 [11/6/21, 9:55:23 pm] Oli: Otherwise I could come to yours if you won’t be thrower [11/6/21, 9:55:43 pm] Sam: That’s fine! And nah, I’m only really up for something here tonight - I’m just gonna go to sleep when I get home [11/6/21, 9:55:51 pm] Oli: Ok! [11/6/21, 9:55:52 pm] Sam: That said, you could always get a cab back with me and then hang out with Raz [11/6/21, 9:56:04 pm] Sam: And his friend who’s possibly over [11/6/21, 10:02:45 pm] Oli: Ordering taxi [11/6/21, 10:02:55 pm] Sam: Cool beans! See ya soon [11/6/21, 10:30:24 pm] Oli: ETA now 22:44 as traffic but it’s speeding up so should be there [11/6/21, 10:30:50 pm] Oli: See you both soon’ x 🌸🌺 [11/6/21, 10:31:21 pm] Sam: No probs! See ya soon :) [11/6/21, 10:35:21 pm] Oli: Am drawing ever nearer! Fun! [11/6/21, 10:40:15 pm] Oli: Now 3 mins away [11/6/21, 10:44:56 pm] Oli: Am outside [11/6/21, 10:45:01 pm] Oli: Which one do I press ‎[11/6/21, 10:45:06 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [11/6/21, 10:45:50 pm] Oli: ‎Missed voice call ‎[12/6/21, 12:19:54 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [12/6/21, 1:54:38 am] Oli: Lovely to see you both! Have a nice weekend! Xx [13/6/21, 4:21:10 pm] Sam: Oh, sorry I missed this! It was lovely to see you too :) Hope you've had a nice weekend, and hope you had a good time with Raz after I ditched you guys to go to sleep! ‎[13/6/21, 4:22:01 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [13/6/21, 4:52:48 pm] Oli: Yes, I liked him! A very gentle and thoughtful person! [13/6/21, 4:53:02 pm] Oli: Had a nice chat with Raz too; he has a calming presence which I like! [14/6/21, 3:08:33 pm] Sam: Haha, I'll let them both know 😅 Loving all the positivity! By the way I think Kieran's going to invite you to his dinner on Saturday - I said he should just go ahead, because I couldn't quite remember whether you'd still be in London or not. No pressure if you're not (or even if you are, and can't make it)! [15/6/21, 1:45:50 am] Oli: Oh yes: I got his message today and have just accepted as I shall still be here! It sounds fun! 🎉🥂🌻 [16/6/21, 1:46:26 pm] Sam: Oh, fabulous! I'm really glad to hear. Looking forward! [16/6/21, 1:46:53 pm] Oli: Boris de Pfeffel Johnson went past ‎[16/6/21, 1:46:53 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [16/6/21, 1:46:55 pm] Oli: On way to BBQ in St Albans [16/6/21, 1:46:57 pm] Oli: 🤣 ‎[19/6/21, 1:59:28 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [19/6/21, 2:00:04 am] Oli: I AM DEAD [19/6/21, 2:00:06 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 ‎[19/6/21, 2:00:10 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [19/6/21, 2:00:16 am] Oli: RUSSIAN ARTIST AS ALARM GOES OFF ‘I THINK WE ARE ON FIRE’ ‎[19/6/21, 2:02:06 am] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[19/6/21, 2:02:18 am] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[19/6/21, 10:44:10 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[19/6/21, 10:44:51 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[19/6/21, 11:56:47 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [20/6/21, 6:15:59 pm] Oli: Such funny memories of a fun evening; thank you very much for these! [20/6/21, 6:16:11 pm] Oli: Out to the Wolesley for supper with my Russian artist friend if you are around [20/6/21, 6:17:00 pm] Oli: Hope you had a good evening too... it was quite fun to have some nice conversations... glad that MMC seems to have had a William Hall penny drop, but let’s see! [2/7/21, 10:04:24 pm] Oli: R u around later [2/7/21, 10:04:30 pm] Oli: With my godfather Philip firs of Russian painter [2/7/21, 10:04:39 pm] Oli: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Firsov [2/7/21, 10:04:44 pm] Oli: We are out to drinks but free later xx [2/7/21, 10:09:47 pm] Oli: Well he says he’s a godfather 🤣 [2/7/21, 10:09:49 pm] Oli: Wonderful fun [2/7/21, 10:09:52 pm] Oli: Maybe if you are up for it [2/7/21, 10:09:55 pm] Oli: We shall see you [6/7/21, 10:13:44 pm] Oli: I am around for the whole of the summer now . We have a.l harpsichord here! [6/7/21, 10:13:50 pm] Oli: And a resident artist! [6/7/21, 10:13:59 pm] Oli: Though some neighbours are making puritanical complaints [6/7/21, 10:14:20 pm] Oli: A new rival to private members clubs… we have had people dropping in every night! ‎[6/7/21, 10:16:24 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [30/7/21, 7:11:42 pm] Oli: Are you around this pm? Just got back to London with a godmother from north Devon, Henrietta Rous. Party at hers now if you’d like to come ‎[30/7/21, 7:12:08 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [30/7/21, 7:12:18 pm] Oli: You would like her; she was Ossie Clark’s lover [30/7/21, 7:12:21 pm] Oli: Anyway maybe later! [30/7/21, 8:09:41 pm] Sam: Haha, I have no idea who any of these people are - and I’m afraid Raz and I have a friend around, so we’d have been happy to have you around here, but tonight I don’t think we’re up for a party, sadly :( [30/7/21, 8:26:17 pm] Oli: A shame as she wants more alternative young people !! [30/7/21, 8:26:30 pm] Oli: Maybe later on… how long shall you both be up for? [30/7/21, 8:27:52 pm] Oli: Henri says May be fun to come over. As her tenant’s party is fading! Sad 🤣 ‎[30/7/21, 8:28:05 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [30/7/21, 8:28:08 pm] Oli: Quite fun! [30/7/21, 8:28:23 pm] Oli: I forgot today is Friday 🌺🌸 ‎[30/7/21, 10:25:52 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/7/21, 10:26:05 pm] Sam: A while, I think!! [30/7/21, 10:26:11 pm] Sam: Sorry for the slow reply ! ‎[30/7/21, 10:42:58 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[30/7/21, 10:55:15 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [30/7/21, 11:40:21 pm] Oli: We are finishing party here. [30/7/21, 11:42:03 pm] Oli: Are you around? [30/7/21, 11:58:54 pm] Oli: May go to bed but can do another evening soon! [31/7/21, 12:02:42 am] Oli: Unless you’ll be up for the next 2 hrs or so [7/8/21, 5:15:45 am] Oli: Hi how’re you and Raz x [7/8/21, 5:16:33 am] Oli: Staying with relation in not till after supper with Battersea godmother [7/8/21, 5:16:44 am] Oli: Should love to see you both [7/8/21, 5:16:48 am] Oli: 🌺👍 [7/8/21, 8:01:46 pm] Oli: Are you both free this evening? If so may be fun to see you! Yesterday was a funny one as went on all sorts of convoluted routes taking wrong tubes etc to my supper thing after lunch 🤣 (also involving the DLR and Boris bikes) [7/8/21, 8:16:28 pm] Oli: Otherwise all Ok and shall be back to London on 25th August as in Ireland from next week until then [7/8/21, 11:02:05 pm] Sam: Oh god, I'm sorry I've been so bad at keeping in touch, I've been starting a new job and I guess I've been somewhat stressed! It's actually been really nice, so it's probably just me, but still... Thanks for not giving up on me! [7/8/21, 11:02:06 pm] Sam: I'm pretty much wiped out today though, so I'm afraid I'm not around this evening (though I'm sure you have other plans by now anyway) [7/8/21, 11:02:25 pm] Sam: We should do something soon though, if/when you're around! Let me know (and sorry again for being incommunicado for ages!) [29/10/21, 8:36:38 pm] Oli: Are you around this pm? At the Wolesley have invited a few. You are welcome to join 🌸🌺 [29/10/21, 8:37:59 pm] Sam: I’ve been invited to a party by Kieran (whose party you came to), but you’re (probably- let me ask) welcome to join! It’s on Little Portland St, so not THAT far! Glad to see you’re in London again 😇😇 [29/10/21, 8:52:03 pm] Oli: Yes back from Ireland. Off to West Country next week probably. Just been staying with relatives nr London. Shall be finished Wolesley around 11.30 or so. Would be fun if could link up/ see you after! Let’s see! 🌺 [29/10/21, 9:50:18 pm] Oli: On way to supper now. Let me know about later. 🌺🙏 [29/10/21, 11:01:05 pm] Oli: ‎Location: https://maps.google.com/?q=51.507652,-0.141083 [29/10/21, 11:23:59 pm] Oli: We may go on to annabel’s also if you are around depends what is happening. [30/10/21, 12:28:41 am] Sam: Shit, sorry, I meant to reply [30/10/21, 12:28:43 am] Oli: OK Kieran cleared i 🤣🙏 [30/10/21, 12:29:05 am] Sam: Address is 11 Little Portland St and call me when you get here, it’s much easier than doing it any other way [30/10/21, 12:29:13 am] Sam: But JUST IN CASE I don’t respond ‎[30/10/21, 12:29:38 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/10/21, 12:29:41 am] Oli: Ah good thank you I’ll get my skates on 🙏🙏 [30/10/21, 12:29:49 am] Sam: Flat 208, 11 Little Portland St [30/10/21, 12:30:02 am] Sam: No rush at all - Karol has said he’ll be back at 4 or 5 [30/10/21, 12:30:05 am] Oli: Sounds fun! [30/10/21, 12:33:17 am] Oli: Walking now [30/10/21, 12:33:20 am] Oli: Leisurely stroll ‎[30/10/21, 12:33:25 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [30/10/21, 12:57:40 am] Oli: Arriving [30/10/21, 3:41:34 am] Oli: Opted for a taxi back [30/10/21, 3:41:43 am] Oli: Very funny evening! Thank you both! [30/10/21, 3:41:45 am] Oli: 💫⭐️ [23/12/21, 2:37:42 am] Oli: Hello. Season's greetings. Hope that all is well with you and yours. Lovely to see you recently; hopefully there'll be more opportunity for socialising in the new year. Event for our village this evening. The garden was decorated and people came to have mulled cider, made here, which was surprisingly nice. Usual Christmas small talk with locals etc., some of whom I hadn't met (a lot of new arrivals during the lockdowns). Some conversations developed and others fell at the wayside. Amusing. Grandpa occupied people with talk about his art, hoping to find some mutual interests. A very slow event; very rural/provincial. Nice to stay inside and read etc. if one is in the middle of nowhere, but when sometimes the surrounding environs can be backward to say the least. Forgot that it was Christmas, basically, until very recently so now searching for presents for the various people coming here. Hope that yours is all under control... ‎[23/12/21, 2:37:58 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[23/12/21, 2:38:05 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[23/12/21, 2:38:22 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [23/12/21, 2:38:34 am] Oli: Party at night in the cold… [23/12/21, 2:38:39 am] Oli: 🎄 ‎[7/1/22, 8:41:31 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [7/1/22, 8:41:31 pm] Oli: Cousin’s party [7/1/22, 8:41:35 pm] Oli: Embassy gardens cote [7/1/22, 8:41:36 pm] Oli: Xx [8/1/22, 1:34:08 am] Oli: Where r h [8/1/22, 1:34:15 am] Oli: Have h got any heroin [8/1/22, 1:34:17 am] Oli: Ok pay h [8/1/22, 1:34:22 am] Oli: I’ll pay u [8/1/22, 1:34:40 am] Oli: Let. E know ‎[8/1/22, 1:36:05 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[8/1/22, 1:36:23 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [8/1/22, 2:01:35 am] Oli: Hi [8/1/22, 2:01:37 am] Oli: Are you there [8/1/22, 2:01:46 am] Oli: It’s urgent [8/1/22, 2:07:02 am] Oli: Help [8/1/22, 2:07:07 am] Oli: Is 200g [8/1/22, 2:07:10 am] Oli: Enough [8/1/22, 2:07:15 am] Oli: Cocaine [8/1/22, 2:07:21 am] Oli: What about 800g [8/1/22, 2:07:26 am] Oli: PleAse Advise [8/1/22, 2:08:09 am] Oli: ‎Missed voice call [8/1/22, 2:30:53 am] Oli: How much [8/1/22, 2:31:10 am] Oli: Is 2HF [8/1/22, 2:31:12 am] Oli: Of grams [8/1/22, 2:31:18 am] Oli: 2grams [8/1/22, 12:43:31 pm] Oli: Bloody hell [8/1/22, 12:43:40 pm] Oli: I managed to do a whole bag so it seems [8/1/22, 12:43:46 pm] Oli: Now alcohol has worn off [8/1/22, 12:43:49 pm] Oli: Did you have a good evening ‎[8/1/22, 1:21:56 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [6/2/22, 8:45:27 pm] Oli: Are you about tonight [6/2/22, 8:45:30 pm] Oli: 🎼✌️🌸 [26/3/22, 12:19:37 am] Sam: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/05/27/dear-friends-this-is-why-i-will-vote-remain-in-the-referendum/ [26/3/22, 1:21:10 pm] Oli: Thank you for this and for a lovely evening. 🥂 [31/3/22, 10:47:40 pm] Sam: Oh god, sorry I missed this, I’ve been ill and also just terrible at checking WhatsApp! Thanks for coming - it was lovely to see you! We should do drinks the next time you’re in London :) (Agh I’m so embarrassed to have given the impression I was just blanking you 😬) [31/3/22, 10:56:16 pm] Oli: Hello! Not at all. I hope that you are feeling a bit better now! I can often be guilty of the same thing on messages/e-mails! Loved the party. Should be around this weekend, maybe we can catch up for a bit. Will see what Damien is doing too! 😁xx [6/4/22, 8:41:57 pm] Oli: Are you around tonight? Having drinks with a philosophy PhD friend from madras and another friend who is some sort of consultant [6/4/22, 10:06:28 pm] Oli: At mirror room of rosewood if you want to come with a few interesting people [6/4/22, 11:22:39 pm] Oli: Now at my godmother’s St Leonard’s Terrace if you want to join; we have champagne etc. Xx ‎[8/4/22, 12:01:50 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [8/4/22, 12:01:51 am] Oli: At nightclub lol [8/4/22, 12:01:53 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [8/4/22, 2:12:19 am] Oli: LOL fucking pissing myself at this [8/4/22, 6:46:12 am] Oli: Shit [8/4/22, 6:46:15 am] Oli: Am laughing [8/4/22, 6:46:24 am] Oli: Just had the most discombobulating evening [8/4/22, 6:46:39 am] Oli: What are you doing this evening could have some fun night out somewhere may go out ‎[8/4/22, 7:50:05 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [8/4/22, 7:50:05 pm] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. ‎[8/4/22, 7:50:05 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [8/4/22, 7:50:17 pm] Oli: This man is nuts 😆 ‎[10/4/22, 12:18:22 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[10/4/22, 12:18:22 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[10/4/22, 12:18:22 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[10/4/22, 12:18:22 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[10/4/22, 12:18:22 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[10/4/22, 12:18:22 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[10/4/22, 12:22:56 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [10/4/22, 1:39:56 am] Sam: Hey - I’m really sorry, I didn’t mean to be brusque with you earlier - I know you had the best of intentions, but I just didn’t want it to draw me into some silly insecurity contest with those troglodytes.. But I’m sorry that I cut you off, it was really dickish and I know you were only trying to establish what little common ground existed Anyway, thank you for inviting me, and I’m really glad I got the chance to meet your friend Philip (?) - he was truly lovely, and a tremendously talented artist 🙏 I hope you guys (without Damien- sorry about that too) have a good rest of your night! ‎[15/4/22, 9:18:19 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [15/4/22, 9:18:25 pm] Oli: With the cousin you met and my aunt [15/4/22, 9:18:31 pm] Oli: Finally she got rid of the awful man haha [15/4/22, 9:18:46 pm] Oli: So we are having Easter in the country that’s good. See you soon I hope. Back on Monday! [15/4/22, 9:19:14 pm] Oli: Glad you liked Philip and once again apologies about the pompous people in the pub in Chelsea. Glad evening was salvaged 🙏 ‎[15/4/22, 9:23:59 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [15/4/22, 9:24:31 pm] Oli: With the cousin you met and her mother haha ‎[16/4/22, 11:15:37 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [16/4/22, 11:15:43 pm] Oli: Haha the cousin speaking to her mother [16/4/22, 11:15:57 pm] Oli: I remember you being surprised by them lmao 🤣🤣 we’ve made friends again for the meanwhile [16/4/22, 11:24:54 pm] Oli: The cousins here are connected to the Geidts and onenof them is staying [16/4/22, 11:25:14 pm] Oli: My godmother Diana Gage nee Beatty is a friend of the spook as worked in London Scottish Regiment [16/4/22, 11:25:23 pm] Oli: Shall work out connection properly with your friend one day [16/4/22, 11:25:37 pm] Oli: You and your house are welcome to come and stay in the country sometime xx [16/4/22, 11:25:39 pm] Oli: 😇 [23/4/22, 10:18:36 pm] Oli: Have drinks here and snacks if you’d like to come. Otherwise another time xx [23/4/22, 10:33:41 pm] Oli: SORRY about the noise this guy just arrived and is making noise shouting etc not sure who he is xx [23/4/22, 10:34:05 pm] Oli: Nothing to do with me lol [23/4/22, 10:44:42 pm] Sam: Thanks, I appreciate it! I’m just defrosting after sitting in the cold for a while, and I’ll come join you for a drink once Pavarotti’s gone 👌 I don’t hold it against you, don’t worry! [23/4/22, 10:48:06 pm] Oli: 😇 [23/4/22, 11:03:44 pm] Sam: Yeah, like I say, I’m absolutely not going to hold someone else’s obnoxiousness against you!! Just let me know if and when he goes – provided of course you’re still drinking & still would like me to join by that point – and I’ll come join you for a drink :) [23/4/22, 11:18:40 pm] Oli: Great sounds cool. Will do [13/5/22, 11:24:34 pm] Oli: Hi [13/5/22, 11:24:37 pm] Oli: Are you round [13/5/22, 11:24:40 pm] Oli: Having party [13/5/22, 11:24:41 pm] Oli: Come xx [13/5/22, 11:24:45 pm] Oli: Damien and Kieran here ‎[15/5/22, 10:06:41 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [15/5/22, 11:23:53 pm] Oli: He’s here [15/5/22, 11:23:57 pm] Oli: Alex downstairs [16/5/22, 12:56:35 am] Oli: See you another time! I seem to be tired out from This week haha ‎[20/5/22, 7:37:27 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[20/5/22, 7:37:27 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [20/5/22, 7:37:30 pm] Oli: LOOOOL [20/5/22, 7:37:34 pm] Oli: Right of way dispute with a taxi [21/5/22, 1:02:51 am] Oli: Hi haha funny evening [21/5/22, 1:02:57 am] Oli: This. Northern Irish man is psychotic [21/5/22, 1:03:04 am] Oli: Will leave Him in Chelsea and flee [21/5/22, 1:03:05 am] Oli: He’s mad [21/5/22, 1:03:12 am] Oli: Fun to see you [21/5/22, 1:57:33 am] Sam: Hey, nice to see you too! Sorry for the late reply, I've been talking with Damien for the last hour, who's been angry drunk, which has been ... engaging, lol – but nice to meet your friend, he seemed nice (I was dreading the opposite, from Damien's vague introduction, but he seemed like a delightful guy) [21/5/22, 1:59:11 am] Sam: (^ sorry, to be 100% clear I don't mean Damien said anything bad about him - he was literally just drunkenly vague and I interpreted that as foreboding, lol) [21/5/22, 2:00:27 am] Sam: anyway, I hope you had/have a good time with that strange self-satisfied coolie, lol, and let's finish planning something w/ Roman and possibly another friend tomorrow when we're all sober! [21/5/22, 2:02:36 am] Oli: Just in taxi home fleeing the madness. Yes was a fun and pleasant evening [21/5/22, 2:02:45 am] Oli: Would love to see you and R and anyone else for some pleasantries [21/5/22, 2:02:53 am] Oli: Once sobered uo haha [21/5/22, 2:02:56 am] Oli: Sleep well! [21/5/22, 2:04:10 am] Oli: Xx [21/5/22, 2:04:24 am] Oli: We can go to somewhere not conducive to abuse with alcohol lol the Irish in me is tempted [21/5/22, 7:12:51 pm] Oli: Are you around? Damien rang but seems to be asleep! 💤 [21/5/22, 7:13:29 pm] Oli: Wonder is he ok [21/5/22, 7:16:07 pm] Sam: Yeah, that would be lovely! Damien is drunk and stumbling around smashing things (plus going on incessantly about Kieran moving out and how terrible it is that he thinks he can just move out, no, we’re going to move out from him!!!!, and so forth) I’ve given up and I’m hoping he’ll just go to sleep - not quite sure if he actually has slept since last night [21/5/22, 7:16:40 pm] Sam: No slight against Damien, but I think my best policy is letting him get tired out and go to sleep [21/5/22, 7:16:43 pm] Oli: Oh god. I suspected as much. Sounded like it when he rang. [21/5/22, 7:16:51 pm] Oli: I did worry had he passed out or something. [21/5/22, 7:17:18 pm] Sam: And we’ve just had an episode where I had to climb out on the inches-wide ledge wrapping around the house, outside his window, because he thought it would be a great idea to let Pig out [21/5/22, 7:17:28 pm] Sam: So yeah, no, sadly he hasn’t passed out yet [21/5/22, 7:17:45 pm] Oli: I see. Doesn’t sound good. Sorry to hear this 😑😑 [21/5/22, 7:18:58 pm] Oli: Well, I shall be off out for a drink now around Bayswater but would love to see you and friends whenever suits people. Hope that you manage to calm the situation down. [21/5/22, 7:23:27 pm] Sam: Yeah it’s not ideal.. I swear to god he buys all this fucking Fiji water and THE ONE TIME he actually needs it…. lmao ‎[22/5/22, 10:15:06 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [22/5/22, 10:15:20 pm] Oli: Duke of York sq drinks with some Friends atm xx [22/5/22, 10:26:10 pm] Oli: If you are around [23/5/22, 1:05:13 am] Sam: Oh gosh, sorry I missed this - to be perfectly self-defeatingly honest I think it’s unlikely I’d have made it anyway last night, under the circs, but hope you had fun anyway!! [27/5/22, 10:14:00 pm] Oli: That is fine; happens to the best of us! A friend is visiting from Munich until Mon. We could do something fun with him. Though think he has to go to the country sometime. Maybe going out around Soho tonight will see xx [28/5/22, 1:54:24 pm] Oli: We may be doing something later… to introduce Albrecht to some fun locals or something, depending on what his hosts do. Xx [29/5/22, 1:50:55 am] Oli: SW1X9AG [29/5/22, 1:50:55 am] Oli: 12a Sloane gate mansions [29/5/22, 1:51:13 am] Oli: Italian party xx fun Elvis impressionist singer [8/6/22, 2:01:39 pm] Oli: We are at Sally Clarke’s Kensington church st if you are around xx [8/6/22, 4:10:58 pm] Sam: Oh gosh - I’m meant to be seeing another friend this afternoon, but let me see what I can figure out :) (Also, is that a person’s house, or a restaurant or something? lol) [8/6/22, 7:09:56 pm] Oli: Hello! Sorry just finished the long lunch and drinks haha. A restaurant. On Ken Church St. quite fun. Then we went back to someone’s house nearby. Now walking around Notting hill near Westbourne Park. Maybe see you later on haha! Xx [9/6/22, 1:55:44 am] Oli: Now at Chiltern firehouse if you’re about [9/6/22, 1:55:45 am] Oli: Haha ‎[4/8/22, 11:21:10 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/8/22, 11:21:11 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/8/22, 11:21:54 pm] Sam: This is what I was referring to ^ like that Indian [4/8/22, 11:24:14 pm] Oli: 🤣 [5/8/22, 7:40:07 pm] Sam: Heya, I just made an order and got a pop up which reminded me to send you this code invitey thing: Gopuff delivers daily essentials in minutes! Get £10.00 just for signing up. https://sign-in.gopuff.com/user-registration?coupon_code=GOVGR6RXPX Also nice to see you last night! Shame about, uh, absent friends, and present friends [7/8/22, 6:56:12 pm] Oli: Thank you for this!! 🙏 And quite agree! [9/8/22, 2:07:06 am] Sam: Absolute must-read: https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2022/01/inside-prince-andrews-misguided-bid-to-explain-away-epstein [18/8/22, 10:46:17 pm] Oli: Thank you for this. [18/8/22, 10:46:26 pm] Oli: Also a very Happy Birthday. Many happy returns! 🥂 [18/8/22, 10:54:52 pm] Sam: Aww, thank you! And a merry heil Hitler to you too 🙃 [18/8/22, 10:55:08 pm] Sam: (…si fueris Romae….) [18/8/22, 10:57:26 pm] Oli: Quite! We are lucky not to be in this case probably!! 🙏 [18/8/22, 11:00:14 pm] Sam: Haha, yeah, very true 😄 Also, we should do something when I’m back in London! Maybe something less eldritch than the airport night, lol [20/8/22, 7:40:36 pm] Oli: Yes! Haha I agree! I look forward to it! [21/10/22, 7:18:21 pm] Oli: How are things? I seem to have gone into a daze too… just back from Turkey… lots of funny people visiting us out there. Now watching some funny Japanese anime film from 1984 and in another daze. Visiting people for supper. Hope that all is well! Have just caught up with the madness ensuing in the UK. ‎[21/1/23, 12:07:24 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[21/1/23, 12:07:25 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [21/1/23, 12:09:53 am] Sam: Wait I did show you that clip, right? I think I remember once with Raz.. (Also sorry, attempt to anonymise was a bit sloppy so please don’t let it get to anyone involved if you know them! I just figured you liked a good aristo slapdown, haha) [21/1/23, 12:10:07 am] Sam: What with Divy and whoever it was [21/1/23, 12:10:12 am] Oli: LOL you know that boy you do get around [21/1/23, 12:10:27 am] Oli: He was supposed to come to my Xmas party [21/1/23, 12:10:44 am] Oli: He is friend of my friend. How did you know him?! 😱 [21/1/23, 12:11:14 am] Oli: I am in Mortlake again now being pursued by that French idiot Thibault you met. [21/1/23, 12:11:17 am] Oli: Trying to hide… [21/1/23, 12:12:10 am] Oli: Also I met that man Wakefield through Katarina de Silva at an art event. I kept saying heil Hitler. [21/1/23, 12:12:17 am] Sam: Oh he was at school with a friend of mine, seems like a nice guy but I don’t know him super well - seems to be very keen on music [21/1/23, 12:12:17 am] Oli: Heil Hitler for him! [21/1/23, 12:12:34 am] Sam: Hahahaha [21/1/23, 12:12:41 am] Oli: Wakefield’s son is gay I thought. [21/1/23, 12:12:43 am] Sam: If you mean his dad, then I suspect you might’ve won him over… [21/1/23, 12:12:49 am] Oli: A Russian friend used to live with them [21/1/23, 12:13:00 am] Sam: Yes he is gay - also co-parenting a black adopted kid iirc (haven’t seen him in a while bc covid) [21/1/23, 12:13:06 am] Sam: And the kid is recent [21/1/23, 12:13:16 am] Oli: He is very snobby not replying to my messages!! Maybe terrified! [21/1/23, 12:13:19 am] Sam: But yeah, not much love lost between Wakefield pere et fils [21/1/23, 12:13:34 am] Sam: Wait, Freddie or Jack or daddy wakes? [21/1/23, 12:13:38 am] Sam: Sorry, losing track [21/1/23, 12:13:42 am] Oli: Yes!! I haven’t seen Raz in ages either. [21/1/23, 12:13:53 am] Oli: The Freddie man lmao [21/1/23, 12:14:14 am] Oli: And ran Jack Bell Gallery [21/1/23, 12:14:20 am] Oli: Some Russian wanted to make him put me there… [21/1/23, 12:14:21 am] Sam: Hahaha [21/1/23, 12:14:22 am] Oli: Scary! [21/1/23, 12:14:25 am] Sam: This rings a bell [21/1/23, 12:14:34 am] Sam: Oh wait that’s Jack you’re talking about - oh ok that’s probably why, lol [21/1/23, 12:14:37 am] Oli: THIBAULT is Himmlering me [21/1/23, 12:14:41 am] Sam: I don’t have a good memory for personal details lol [21/1/23, 12:15:03 am] Sam: No neither have I actually!! No idea but he seems to have drawn a line [21/1/23, 12:15:18 am] Sam: Not zero contact but v much like some old friend or whatever ‎[21/1/23, 12:15:30 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [21/1/23, 12:15:32 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 [21/1/23, 12:15:33 am] Sam: Old as in old milk, not old as in old house [21/1/23, 12:15:41 am] Oli: My friend said he is a lesbian (Freddie( [21/1/23, 12:15:44 am] Sam: Like, dead and gone, lol [21/1/23, 12:16:14 am] Oli: He was messaging Damien and me ages ago [21/1/23, 12:16:18 am] Sam: Haha a lesbian? Wait I’m lost 😅 [21/1/23, 12:16:19 am] Oli: And I just forgot to reply [21/1/23, 12:16:41 am] Oli: Yes a masc queer thinks he is too feminine [21/1/23, 12:16:56 am] Oli: Think just one of these pouf acting straights but still something there [21/1/23, 12:17:14 am] Oli: Did you move out of Paddington [21/1/23, 12:17:20 am] Oli: I loved randomly appearing there ‎[21/1/23, 12:17:58 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [21/1/23, 12:18:02 am] Oli: Remember this boy 🤣 [21/1/23, 12:18:13 am] Oli: He doesn’t leave me alone now. The French Mong from Chelsea [21/1/23, 12:18:52 am] Oli: Also where is Damien [21/1/23, 12:19:01 am] Oli: He goes between Ulster and London a lot now [21/1/23, 12:22:07 am] Oli: Yes I love things like that LOL [21/1/23, 12:23:49 am] Oli: I am away tomorrow in country at a friend’s funny party but then back and forth. Hope to convene again soon! Xx [21/1/23, 12:24:57 am] Oli: Think they have the ultimate trump of all people mentioned here as he is an Archduke. Though Austrian 🤣 [21/1/23, 12:35:17 am] Sam: Oh gosh sorry I got textstracted - gosh I thought that was Damien for a moment - ah shit I need to message Damien (though no he’s in London for the time being and desperately trying to find a flat, as too am I but less desperately since I have a temporary place in the form of an aunt’s between-tenants flat in the rough area we’re looking in) [21/1/23, 12:37:02 am] Sam: Will reply properly, haha - also didn’t mean to convey any respect for titles or whatever, which I don’t feel, but it’s funny to see one Lord High Smoop knocking down another mere Sub Grand Wizard Smoop who happens to (1) be an asshole and (2) care about the great chain of being of smoops [29/1/23, 12:43:02 am] Sam: Sorry, just processing backlog and realise I didn’t reply v thoroughly to these - but yeah, let me know when you’re around, and I’d love to do something! [29/1/23, 12:47:21 am] Sam: Oh and we should hang out with Freddie sometime when he’s in London (Fulham, incidentally right by the end of Phil’s parents’ garden, which he’d thought was a park 😅). He seems to be a fan of yours, was recounting some of your stories etc, and honestly he’s one of the rare people about I have really nothing bad to say 💙 Just a thoroughly sweet and lovely human being and I’m very glad we crossed paths [31/1/23, 10:57:13 pm] Oli: Yes good idea. ‘ello ‘einrich as they say! [31/1/23, 10:57:16 pm] Oli: Haha quite fun ‎[31/1/23, 10:57:50 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[31/1/23, 10:58:38 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[31/1/23, 11:03:41 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[31/1/23, 11:04:28 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[31/1/23, 11:06:26 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[31/1/23, 11:07:09 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[31/1/23, 11:08:27 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[31/1/23, 11:08:53 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [24/2/23, 11:39:40 pm] Sam: Gosh, sorry, I just clocked that I never replied to you - I’d got it into my head somehow that _you_ hadn’t replied to _me_.. I couldn’t agree more about the Thackeray line. Hadn’t heard that. Will definitely definitely steal that. I was saying to Fred that that’s basically the message I got from my grandparents, and I have to say nothing has disabused me of it (as you know, lol). Maybe you and Freddie are the two exceptions to that rule. Yeah I’m hugely fond of him and he seems very fond of you, which is sweet. Lots of fondness to go around!! Anyway we should do something when you’re in London! (Are you in London? I’ve given up on trying to keep track of who’s in the country vs who’s in London at any given point) ‎[28/2/23, 6:42:08 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [28/2/23, 6:42:13 pm] Oli: Ello Ello. [28/2/23, 6:42:50 pm] Oli: When we went t chase up t’ goon from Somerset, after ‘e didn’t answer my question properly about Bob Marley. Then asked did he know the X or the Y, local Somerset families. Squire Mogg said no ‘e didn’t! [28/2/23, 6:42:54 pm] Oli: Haha just going over this and laughing [28/2/23, 6:43:02 pm] Oli: My funny Russian friend you met [28/2/23, 6:43:59 pm] Oli: I forgot I sent all of those messages. Must have been out of it! 😂 [28/2/23, 6:44:56 pm] Oli: I think it was when Mr Mogg made his comments about Grenfell! 🥸 [28/2/23, 6:46:07 pm] Oli: Good idea! Fondness everywhere. Sounds like a comedy. I was in Dublin the last few days meeting some funny people but am now back in England. In t’ country at t’ moment but up later on in week. Maybe seeing funny Russian art man again and other reprobates… [28/2/23, 6:53:18 pm] Oli: LOL sorry I found it so funny as thought Mogg had similar specs to Himmler. [28/2/23, 6:53:55 pm] Oli: Ridiculous really. Actually think Himmler and co were all mediocrities of course who should’ve been ‘immlered by Stauffenberg but we (or some of us…) do tend to make these jokes! ‎[28/2/23, 6:57:12 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [28/2/23, 6:59:02 pm] Oli: After I said that presumably this distingué man wouldn’t want this photograph to circulate after my sending him up, he replied, ‘Circularet in aeternum’ or something similar (in spoken word). That’s normal isn’t it! [28/2/23, 6:59:58 pm] Oli: Oh yes someone else asked him about his Ali G interview. But all the others were the usual either ‘yeaaah I love you’ or ‘ow can ya be so mean as a government ya meanie?’ ‎[28/2/23, 7:06:32 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [28/2/23, 7:06:38 pm] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. ‎[28/2/23, 7:07:12 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [28/2/23, 7:08:00 pm] Oli: Mr Carew ont Mr Mogg. Not v grand at all! I must send the Mogg a painting of Marley I got at an Xmas market a year ago for that purpose! [28/2/23, 8:28:32 pm] Oli: https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/the-opium-kicked-in-rees-mogg-admits-20190904188760 [28/2/23, 8:30:50 pm] Sam: Oh gosh, haha - my aunt is just over for a cup of tea, but once I free up in half an hour I’ll collate and send you Fred’s various great moggservations [28/2/23, 8:31:26 pm] Sam: He’s of course specially exercised about it - a bit like when Louis Vuitton go after the Chinese counterfeiters [28/2/23, 8:31:52 pm] Sam: Which is Rees-Mogg in a nutshell from what I gather … anyway, un moment [28/2/23, 8:48:06 pm] Oli: Good idea! [28/2/23, 9:26:52 pm] Sam: Haha this is great - sorry, just reading now! (And will gather Fred’s comments! I don’t think any of them were ‘inside goss’ sadly but … well I guess that’s the point, there _is_ no inside goss because the guy’s made his home outside in the greenhouse or the groundskeeper’s cottage) [28/2/23, 9:27:22 pm] Sam: Specifically the laudanum, haha ‎[28/2/23, 9:28:11 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/2/23, 9:29:39 pm] Sam: Oh yes what’s this? Is her name Chair? Or some kind of chair? I remember it was something like that… Fred seemed to be indicating that she was the rich one and he was her dashing toy boy sugar baby [28/2/23, 9:30:13 pm] Sam: I don’t know if you could therefore say he bought his own furniture 🤔 [28/2/23, 9:32:01 pm] Sam: Oh my god you remind me of Divy’s phase of dressing like a 1970s South East Asian strongman dictator - I actually thought those jackets were quite cool, but the association ruins it, like the toothbrush moustache ‎[28/2/23, 9:39:09 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[28/2/23, 9:41:07 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/2/23, 9:41:30 pm] Sam: exoriare a liquid nostris ex ossibus ultor [28/2/23, 9:41:35 pm] Sam: aliquis dammit [28/2/23, 9:42:29 pm] Sam: Who is Mr Carew? Is it really a Mr? God I’ve got so tired of keeping a fucking mental catalogue of titles to surnames [28/2/23, 9:43:38 pm] Sam: (Not that it was exactly _alien_ to me before - think I mentioned we have titled (deranged) mutual fam friends - but it’s usually not the norm, or, in Freddie’s case, virtually every single person he mentions) [28/2/23, 9:46:41 pm] Sam: God why are all of my friends like this (well, either rich or inbred National Trust caretakers or both) despite its contravention of all my principles.. And why am I so mean to Freddie about it and not you? I’m not quite sure about that one… I think he’s just about similar enough to me that he’s in uncanny valley territory, which maybe unsettles me somehow, whereas you’re sui generis, hahaha [28/2/23, 10:34:58 pm] Oli: Yes!!! Her father was the aptly named ‘Somerset de Chair’. That’s normal isn’t it? His obituary is titled ‘death of a self-confessed heterosexual’. Just when you thought it couldn’t get more normal! He was sometime MP for Paddington South I see ontline (not sure if that was your quondam residence’s constituency)! As far as I can know from my modest social shenanigans, everyone who has married into the von Chairs seems to be borderline abnormal. I’m not sure if you’ve come across that woman Alexandra Foley but you haven’t missed much. I only know her as distant cousin’s husband in Gloucs has a party every year and she’s one of the attendees. She’s a ridiculous woman (a slaaaaaag said in cockney) whose spouses I’ve stopped counting. One of these parties I was saddled between her and another relation of Mogg’s (this time the equally awful and snobby, chippy also, Toby Clarke, who was removed from this planet by Yahweh a few years ago). She was talking to someone across the table about Mogg saying that she used to be his sister in law. When the person asked how, she shouted back that she was married to de Chair someone so and so so there you are you twat. 🥸🥸 She hands out her business card calling herself the Hon’ble Alexandra Foley (which she happens to be but a bit mentally disabled if you put these on your cards…) and now runs a ludicrous business, t’ ‘Lady Foley Grand Tour’, which mostly caters to rich orientals paying her to be shown around piles belonging to people she’s ingratiated with. Her brother fled her and is a pouf who lives in Bangkok. Owing to that she says she’s now Lady Foley as his title will die with him. I told her it’ll go to a cousin in a caravan in Australia and not her. I wonder, then, is Rees Mogg’s madness from marriage or both? [28/2/23, 10:35:36 pm] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [28/2/23, 10:37:21 pm] Oli: His wife is rich I think through the de Chair’s wife who is from the family who run (or used to) that Wentworth Woodhouse. But Mogg seems to have also made cash through whatever finance business he runs [28/2/23, 10:37:48 pm] Oli: Unless he bought his wife. Could say Mogg is sitting on his family seat! [28/2/23, 10:39:43 pm] Oli: I don’t know if I would be a very capable strongman dictator; I would probably undermine myself by bursting out laughing at the madness. I like them as they are better than those schoffel things everyone seems to wear. [28/2/23, 10:40:20 pm] Oli: It reminds me of Nagel’s paper to do with consciousness/quaila what it feels like to be a bat 🦇 [28/2/23, 10:40:35 pm] Oli: What does it feel like to be a Mogg/Smogg [28/2/23, 10:40:58 pm] Oli: Hopefully the windows sound will play. Maybe the error sound rather than the shutdown one! [28/2/23, 10:41:08 pm] Oli: The error one probably played when he was born actually? [28/2/23, 10:42:35 pm] Oli: I forgot about Alan Clark! Funny man. Rees-Mogg not only bought his own furniture but his own house. Now, steady on. Can you imagine that?? Surely that must’ve been a first for them! [28/2/23, 10:45:23 pm] Oli: LOOL. It’s really a Mr! Though it and it’s wife are even in disbelief about their status as Mr and Mrs. Those people prefer not to really go by Mr and Mrs. It’s usually managed by going as an Esq (not consciously, unlike Mogg, but by having faith in one’s social circle to get it right). I think this is all about how one’s referred to ont envelope. Think then t’ waaaaf can’t be mentioned as the Esq, being male, precludes a Mrs alongside it (unlike Mr and Mrs John Smith). [28/2/23, 10:49:48 pm] Oli: Mr Carew was geboren Mr Peter Breitmeyer (they’d been in England for a while I think) and. He and his brothers, as lots of t’ English do, took their mother’s name of Carew. They’re from the Carew family, only know them as they are vaguely old family who crop up in history, but from a collateral branch, though Mr Carew (🤣) managed t’ make something of ‘imself (in t’ smart society) by making cash in finance I think and somehow bought a big house (ex hotel) and established it with lots of old family furniture and paintings he’d somehow acquired. I know him and his wife (more than just knowing of their name) as the wife is Irish so she overlaps with some people. They’re quite snobby and conservative but that also means that when it comes to people like Mogg they know who he is 😂 [28/2/23, 10:50:53 pm] Oli: I wonder what makes up Mogg’s mental catalogue! [28/2/23, 10:51:21 pm] Oli: Haha every family has to have at least one deranged titular friend, right? [28/2/23, 10:51:24 pm] Oli: Good idea!! [28/2/23, 10:52:00 pm] Oli: I have deranged titular and non-titular friends and associates, extending as far as randomers I meet in t’ street! [28/2/23, 10:56:12 pm] Oli: Yes I think that group of people are in a mafia. It’s like the Catholic mafia. There’s the titled mafia with their own hierarchy. I don’t actually know much about his family’s social comings and goings but I think they are in that rarefied world of people (who belong to an already rarefied world to clarify) who have managed yo save themselves mid (at least potential) plane crash and now either are or have a cosmopolitan face to present to the world, whether that’s true or not. Like the Grosvenor people, though maybe the Grosvenor are in a league of their own. Interested in this as I like the history of it all and how it’s still acting itself out. [28/2/23, 10:58:56 pm] Oli: Maybe he is more of a guilty player than I am! Send him down! I know some of those people but am, like my friend’s uncle that lovely novelist, an inside outsider. Am basically Irish in my familial/cultural connection to these groups of people anyway, which is a fades colonial caste, rightly, to their perspective so their attitudes/tolerance of it vary. [28/2/23, 10:59:10 pm] Oli: The novelist Colin MacInnes [28/2/23, 11:00:47 pm] Oli: National Trust caretakers I love. Grandpa wrote sanctimoniously about these grand cousins we had New Year’s with years ago (until they took umbrage to something or other about me!!) that they live in a museum behind ropes and that their life isn’t real 🤣🤣🤣 they read that when he had, thinking he’s Pepys, an exhibition of his diaries [28/2/23, 11:01:54 pm] Oli: A lot of them are also culturally conservative without thinking it. We all have bits of that. [28/2/23, 11:03:08 pm] Oli: Am actually laughing so much still about Mogg. I’ll send you another funny video. About the Gloucs cousin’s husband (local squire figure who is Tim nice but dim) who couldn’t get out of his car/unlock his wife’s door in the back so had to help her on his drive as she was having a breakdown that she’d be stuck were they to have a crash [28/2/23, 11:03:23 pm] Oli: I recorded it and awarded him the python UC Twit of t’ year ‎[28/2/23, 11:04:38 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[28/2/23, 11:04:40 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [28/2/23, 11:05:05 pm] Oli: It’s somehow two videos. anyway that’s all folks. Sorry for inundating you with messages 🤣☝️🥸 [28/2/23, 11:19:05 pm] Sam: Not only that, but I’m told, by Fred, that he apparently has a fleet of Rolls Royces parked conspicuously on the forecourt with custom number plates. Like something from deepest darkest footballest Essex. As I said: Alan ‘Lord’ Sugar himself would cringe…. [28/2/23, 11:19:35 pm] Sam: Haha my parents were big Harry Enfield fans when I was young - good 90s reference there [28/2/23, 11:20:16 pm] Sam: Haha I think I’ve said the same to Freddie - also wait lemme grab his hilarious message about ‘the Marlborough people’ [28/2/23, 11:20:42 pm] Sam: God he’s just a goldmine of golden geese [28/2/23, 11:20:51 pm] Sam: Of great messages, I mean [28/2/23, 11:21:25 pm] Sam: Worse than my grandma with the name dropping (in both cases quite sincere / inadvertent tho) [28/2/23, 11:25:28 pm] Oli: Ah we are cross typing [28/2/23, 11:25:29 pm] Sam: While I’m struggling to find what I was looking for, in the meantime… (😂) ‎[28/2/23, 11:25:33 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/2/23, 11:25:38 pm] Oli: I just sent funny cousin (on Irish side) a message about RM [28/2/23, 11:26:07 pm] Oli: Said cousin happened t be Tory MP years ago until Johnson (de Pfeffel) gave him ermine for nothing but wanting to put more Tories in lords [28/2/23, 11:26:25 pm] Oli: Henry himself, said cousin, agrees that Mogg is a farce ‎[28/2/23, 11:26:30 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [28/2/23, 11:26:58 pm] Oli: Himmlered by 1999 Act! That is a good thing to remind them of as lots of them get upset by it. [28/2/23, 11:27:06 pm] Oli: We live in a circus! ‎[28/2/23, 11:27:38 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/2/23, 11:28:43 pm] Oli: Omg them LOL what [28/2/23, 11:28:54 pm] Oli: The Marlboroughs are basically jokes of that world [28/2/23, 11:28:56 pm] Sam: Haha he’s such a pious old fraud [28/2/23, 11:29:03 pm] Oli: Or were I think because the guy was a smack head [28/2/23, 11:29:06 pm] Oli: Now t’ duke [28/2/23, 11:29:07 pm] Sam: Oh really? I like the Gold ones [28/2/23, 11:29:20 pm] Oli: Reds ‎[28/2/23, 11:29:31 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/2/23, 11:29:36 pm] Oli: Henrietta Gelber I know she goes to Tim nice But dim’s parties. [28/2/23, 11:29:38 pm] Sam: ^ correct [28/2/23, 11:29:47 pm] Oli: Her maiden name as sister of Mr Blandford makes Her wet [28/2/23, 11:29:56 pm] Oli: As she loves telling people she is Spencer-Himmler [28/2/23, 11:30:07 pm] Oli: They have nothing else to go on (the younger siblings) [28/2/23, 11:30:11 pm] Oli: It’s a brainwashing carnival! [28/2/23, 11:30:25 pm] Oli: She’s a pastiche interior designer [28/2/23, 11:30:34 pm] Oli: Thinks she’s rlly good designing all these Russian’s drawing rooms [28/2/23, 11:30:36 pm] Oli: 🤣 [28/2/23, 11:30:58 pm] Oli: This is hilarious [28/2/23, 11:31:19 pm] Oli: Haha Harrow [28/2/23, 11:31:55 pm] Oli: Yes I had a cousin who was sent there and grandpa (Irishman sent to school in England, with Hess, think was called Our Lady of Hitler Beside Thames) said ‘he had a bad start in life’ [28/2/23, 11:32:01 pm] Oli: They all get upset about ‘arrow [28/2/23, 11:32:09 pm] Sam: Jesus … god I mean actually I don’t mind the aristos so much, my problem is with the rich, and I know far richer people than Fred (by which I mean than Fred’s family), so it’s a mystery to me why I’m so mean / judgey to him about it - I feel so bad [28/2/23, 11:32:23 pm] Sam: Hahaha we settled on Harrow because we could settle on nothing else [28/2/23, 11:32:40 pm] Oli: Ah yes. I love how they stick together! [28/2/23, 11:32:49 pm] Sam: I can attack Harrow because it’s a bastion of inequality AND a shitty education (it’s somehow more obscene - if you’re gonna spend the money, at least go to fucking Eton) [28/2/23, 11:33:06 pm] Sam: And he can attack Harrow because it’s not Eton, the other place, blah blah blah [28/2/23, 11:33:09 pm] Oli: Harrow produces thickos [28/2/23, 11:33:13 pm] Oli: Seems to anyway [28/2/23, 11:33:18 pm] Oli: Like that mad man you met at the pub [28/2/23, 11:33:27 pm] Sam: Haha yes this is our one piece of awkward common ground [28/2/23, 11:33:33 pm] Sam: They’re all mediocrities [28/2/23, 11:33:41 pm] Sam: Whereas Eton is only mostly mediocrities [28/2/23, 11:34:02 pm] Oli: Haha maybe it’s something to do with inequality not sure [28/2/23, 11:34:06 pm] Sam: Nah I like Fred a lot though, it’s a fucking miracle to me that he and his family are so well adjusted [28/2/23, 11:34:14 pm] Oli: I am on a seesaw about that question not really sure where to draw t line [28/2/23, 11:34:16 pm] Sam: Ie a lot of adjustment [28/2/23, 11:34:33 pm] Sam: Wait which one in particular [28/2/23, 11:35:00 pm] Sam: I think part of it, with Fred et al, is the security of having nowhere higher to go [28/2/23, 11:35:00 pm] Oli: Yes some are obscenely rich [28/2/23, 11:35:17 pm] Oli: The question as I understood it of what to do morally about inequality [28/2/23, 11:35:22 pm] Sam: Short of fighting Charles on a horse with a longsword [28/2/23, 11:35:42 pm] Oli: They are left wing I think [28/2/23, 11:35:46 pm] Sam: Yeahhhh I sent Fred a PDF of Singer’s paper [28/2/23, 11:35:48 pm] Oli: Compared to a lot of their contemporaries [28/2/23, 11:35:51 pm] Sam: Famine Affluence and Morality [28/2/23, 11:35:55 pm] Oli: I like singer [28/2/23, 11:35:58 pm] Oli: He likes animals [28/2/23, 11:36:00 pm] Oli: I Think [28/2/23, 11:36:11 pm] Sam: My worry is that he sees the morality bit as kinda a folly, a nice personal quality to cultivate [28/2/23, 11:36:20 pm] Sam: Etc etc wait let me just grab my last bullying messages [28/2/23, 11:36:35 pm] Oli: We knew one of the Gordon Lennox but was some cousin of theirs. Grandpa’s contemporary. Some army guy. He was very snobby and right wing probably because he didn’t inherit 🤣 [28/2/23, 11:37:00 pm] Oli: But they seem to be quite leftist. They were on TV ages ago I saw a docu before I met his brother and then randomly Him. [28/2/23, 11:37:15 pm] Oli: But leftist in a sort of half way. Hard for them to be fully so 🤣🥸 ‎[28/2/23, 11:37:55 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[28/2/23, 11:37:56 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[28/2/23, 11:37:56 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[28/2/23, 11:37:58 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [28/2/23, 11:38:03 pm] Oli: Idk what link he is to them [28/2/23, 11:38:36 pm] Oli: Yes that’s what I think a lot of them so [28/2/23, 11:38:39 pm] Oli: Do* [28/2/23, 11:38:44 pm] Oli: As they don’t know anything else [28/2/23, 11:38:48 pm] Sam: Wait gimme a few mins sorry - can’t quite keep up live chat right now haha - but yes, they can’t be that sincere, or at least the prime genitals can’t be (for Freddie it’s easier but still….) [28/2/23, 11:39:13 pm] Sam: But I don’t exactly want him to be falsely virtuous while relying on the fact that it’ll never be in his power to do anything [28/2/23, 11:39:22 pm] Oli: Just reading t’ messages! Good idea [28/2/23, 11:42:12 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 ‎[28/2/23, 11:42:28 pm] Oli: ‎GIF omitted [28/2/23, 11:43:09 pm] Oli: Genocidaire. Shall we do a citizen’s arrest and take him t’ Nuremberg? [28/2/23, 11:43:40 pm] Oli: Haha I love your inter multi alia messages. [28/2/23, 11:44:02 pm] Sam: I mean I feel a bit bad, because I don’t subject anyone else to nearly the same [28/2/23, 11:44:05 pm] Sam: Well, Phil, yes [28/2/23, 11:44:09 pm] Oli: Think he is quite a nice person compared to lots of them who are actually quite awful and arrogant without justification [28/2/23, 11:44:16 pm] Sam: Divy I just think is a force of nature and I don’t attempt to change him [28/2/23, 11:44:30 pm] Oli: Like Mossad [28/2/23, 11:44:33 pm] Oli: Mossad v Eichmann [28/2/23, 11:44:39 pm] Sam: He is a nice person, yeah, he’s a really sweet human being [28/2/23, 11:44:56 pm] Sam: I feel bad that this is probably why I’m so hard on gim [28/2/23, 11:45:10 pm] Oli: He would be better having been born working class my grandpa used to say a lot [28/2/23, 11:45:16 pm] Oli: But he said that about UC thickos [28/2/23, 11:45:21 pm] Sam: Ie that if he were an outright asshole - or, like I was saying about Divy, just simply incorrigible - then I wouldn’t bother [28/2/23, 11:45:20 pm] Oli: But maybe in his case he’d like it [28/2/23, 11:45:29 pm] Oli: Tho perhaps not as good for music whatever those people do [28/2/23, 11:45:36 pm] Sam: It’s precisely because I think he’ll be convinced by moral reasoning [28/2/23, 11:46:09 pm] Sam: Haha do you mean Freddie? I remember saying that about prince hal when he was my games master (long story) [28/2/23, 11:46:13 pm] Oli: Yes I wonder. I think in the end he will but there’s a trap and they’re in a hybrid between their culture and what they want [28/2/23, 11:46:17 pm] Oli: Yes haha [28/2/23, 11:46:31 pm] Oli: Ah you mean mr ginger [28/2/23, 11:46:32 pm] Oli: Good idea [28/2/23, 11:46:37 pm] Oli: 🥸🥸 [28/2/23, 11:46:50 pm] Sam: Yeah I mean not so much as if he were Bridey himself - he technically could be free, like my mum’s friend Lenlanabwo w I think just ditched it all - but yeah emotionally I get it [28/2/23, 11:47:00 pm] Sam: Lenka who* [28/2/23, 11:47:20 pm] Oli: Bridget 🤣 [28/2/23, 11:47:23 pm] Oli: Bridey* [28/2/23, 11:47:26 pm] Oli: Awful character [28/2/23, 11:47:28 pm] Oli: He’s so nasty [28/2/23, 11:47:39 pm] Oli: Yes people who ditch it can be fun [28/2/23, 11:48:04 pm] Oli: That’s it [28/2/23, 11:48:06 pm] Sam: I think at the end of the day it’s his family and … aargh, it’s tough, because they aren’t bad at all, they try pretty hard to fall short, and don’t fail more than most people do, but … god I’m never gonna stop being honest so I don’t know why I’m flagellating myself about it [28/2/23, 11:48:07 pm] Oli: Speciesism [28/2/23, 11:48:09 pm] Oli: Singer spoke of [28/2/23, 11:48:23 pm] Sam: Yeah, I think so [28/2/23, 11:48:29 pm] Sam: He seems to admire Wittgenstein so there’s that [28/2/23, 11:48:38 pm] Sam: (I’m also a huge Witt fan, personally and philosophically) [28/2/23, 11:48:44 pm] Sam: But yeah [28/2/23, 11:48:58 pm] Sam: I do get that slight uneasy sense of “he doesn’t mean it” but I’m maybe just being harsh to him [28/2/23, 11:49:14 pm] Sam: And I get that with Sloughcompians in general [28/2/23, 11:49:15 pm] Oli: Wittgenstein Himmlered Russell [28/2/23, 11:49:26 pm] Oli: Russell tried t’ logicise Fockin’ English language rayt [28/2/23, 11:49:32 pm] Oli: And Wittgenstein came along and said no [28/2/23, 11:49:34 pm] Oli: 🤣 [28/2/23, 11:49:38 pm] Sam: You should write pop philosophy books hahaha [28/2/23, 11:49:54 pm] Oli: I’ve been to wittgensreinMa house [28/2/23, 11:49:57 pm] Oli: Witrgenstein’s cottage [28/2/23, 11:50:00 pm] Oli: In west of Ireland [28/2/23, 11:50:03 pm] Oli: Surrounded by sheep shit [28/2/23, 11:50:07 pm] Oli: And a funny plaque [28/2/23, 11:50:12 pm] Oli: Met this bog Irish man who said [28/2/23, 11:50:22 pm] Oli: Awk for sure my father yeah he had wittgenstein’s papers [28/2/23, 11:50:27 pm] Oli: He threw ‘em out so ‘d did [28/2/23, 11:50:29 pm] Oli: ‘E [28/2/23, 11:50:30 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [28/2/23, 11:50:42 pm] Oli: Good idea [28/2/23, 11:51:16 pm] Oli: Not sure it may be bit of both [28/2/23, 11:51:30 pm] Oli: I feel funny about it. Randomly few weeks ago I saw him at a friend’s party [28/2/23, 11:51:41 pm] Oli: And I didn’t know who he was but then he reminded me and I clocked [28/2/23, 11:51:53 pm] Oli: He seemed to be a sort of hippy 🤣 [28/2/23, 11:52:10 pm] Oli: Not even sure what the link was. Maybe he knew my friend’s friend I think [28/2/23, 11:52:23 pm] Oli: I will start immediately [28/2/23, 11:52:30 pm] Oli: Yes [28/2/23, 11:52:34 pm] Oli: My grandpa is the same [28/2/23, 11:52:45 pm] Oli: He was Himmlered by his elder sister who is quite snobby in Ireland [28/2/23, 11:52:48 pm] Oli: He said to her [28/2/23, 11:53:17 pm] Oli: ‘I feel that having had a superior education I have had it lucky whereas my cleaning lady who is cleverer and better looking has not been able to do so because of that’ [28/2/23, 11:53:31 pm] Oli: The polite thing to do would be to ignore that [28/2/23, 11:53:37 pm] Oli: What she said was ‘I’m sure that’s right’ [28/2/23, 11:53:39 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣🤣 [28/2/23, 11:53:59 pm] Oli: Hilarious [28/2/23, 11:54:27 pm] Oli: Grandpa is one of these faux leftists though as he says he supports ‘those people’ and then calls them canon fodder [28/2/23, 11:54:33 pm] Oli: Basically his generation thing but it’s quite extreme [28/2/23, 11:54:56 pm] Sam: Oh he had a cottage in Ireland?? I thought you meant the Norwegian one for a moment.. Funny, I never knew that 🤔 Also yeah with Fred I am trying to puzzle out whether he’s sincere or whether it’s some sort of aesthetic, which it sometimes feels like when he comes out with stuff about “yes I think we all ought to give a bit more money to charity, what a nice thought to reflect on”, etc etc, a bit like “yes we all ought to help drowning children, very good point, right, on we go” [28/2/23, 11:55:09 pm] Oli: Yes!! I have pic somewhere [28/2/23, 11:55:13 pm] Oli: Of Irish place [28/2/23, 11:55:20 pm] Sam: Also hahahahaha utterly brilliant! Wait you mean his cleaning lady said that? Or his sister? Either way, brilliant [28/2/23, 11:55:23 pm] Oli: He did the weeds at Cantab I think [28/2/23, 11:55:29 pm] Oli: His sister said it [28/2/23, 11:55:30 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 [28/2/23, 11:55:52 pm] Sam: And I absolutely feel the same, it’s outrageous how little these cleaners make [28/2/23, 11:56:09 pm] Oli: Haha I think Freddie may be like that though his family are quite leftist/woke (w/e that means) for their station in life [28/2/23, 11:56:13 pm] Oli: Funny so it’s a hybrid [28/2/23, 11:56:29 pm] Sam: I don’t think I’ve ever paid them their asking rate (and credit to Raz who was willing to join me in paying 2x - that’s a good general rule of thumb I think) [28/2/23, 11:56:36 pm] Sam: It’s just horrendous [28/2/23, 11:56:43 pm] Sam: Ragged-trousered philanthropists [28/2/23, 11:56:57 pm] Sam: Princes walking as servants upon the earth [28/2/23, 11:56:59 pm] Sam: Etc etc [28/2/23, 11:56:59 pm] Oli: And also his sister then said [28/2/23, 11:57:32 pm] Oli: ‘I don’t think Eton’s That good. Rynn (her husband) didn’t get into Winchester so had to go to Eton. So much for Eton’ [28/2/23, 11:57:40 pm] Oli: So what a supportive sister. 🤣 [28/2/23, 11:57:58 pm] Oli: Yes particularly in London too [28/2/23, 11:58:11 pm] Oli: Grandpa pays her Ok to be fair to him but they are royally ripped off [28/2/23, 11:58:18 pm] Oli: Yes! ‎[28/2/23, 11:58:40 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [28/2/23, 11:58:41 pm] Oli: Here [28/2/23, 11:59:02 pm] Oli: The plaque on Wittgenstein’s sheep shit surrounded cottage on a cliff in the west of Ireland [28/2/23, 11:59:11 pm] Oli: Actuslly quite Ok for a philosopher [28/2/23, 11:59:57 pm] Oli: But these are all ‘Irish’ people. Like their English counterparts but more unapologetically snobby. [1/3/23, 12:00:14 am] Oli: Could probably audit t’ whole of English people based on some of their statements [1/3/23, 12:00:44 am] Oli: Also GEM Anscombe did a lot of work on his stuff [1/3/23, 12:00:47 am] Oli: I like her [1/3/23, 12:01:46 am] Oli: Didn’t know about the Norwegian one ‎[1/3/23, 12:02:37 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [1/3/23, 12:02:39 am] Oli: Like this haha [1/3/23, 12:02:58 am] Oli: So obv they meant Ok but I think were sort of himmlered by a cultural Thing [1/3/23, 12:03:22 am] Oli: Idk but I saw it all on TV ages ago and them trying to be very modern and with it despite the obvious [1/3/23, 12:04:08 am] Oli: When I met the elder brother he was going on about something to do with the Stuarts so I told him I had the same ancestry and so did many others [1/3/23, 12:04:32 am] Oli: Problem is people just liking these things without trying to understand psychology/personalities/history behind it [1/3/23, 12:04:53 am] Oli: But Freddie guy seems different and more genuine compared to the elder one [1/3/23, 12:05:23 am] Oli: I must get back in touch with Raz! [1/3/23, 12:05:32 am] Oli: So many of these people though. [1/3/23, 12:07:24 am] Oli: Good idea(s) and all that int it rayt [1/3/23, 12:07:40 am] Oli: I seem to have turned myself mad with all of this funny texting [1/3/23, 12:07:42 am] Oli: 🤣 [1/3/23, 12:08:06 am] Oli: Would be fun t’ Bump into ya when ya are frei! [1/3/23, 12:17:51 am] Sam: Yeah, modern and with it is all well and good, but it’s just sartorial, isn’t it, really, in the end? Does it really help anyone if they send their kids to state schools, or adopt an African child, or whatever? Vast numbers of black African children are still starving while you’re still banqueting in your palace. And most kids from state schools are still at a huge disadvantage which yours will never be, so it feels nothing more than a bit of a cruel joke, not to mention taking resources/places you didn’t need. It all feels so shallow. I don’t know if he himself is, I’m trying to figure that one out, but it irks me. “High in a white palace, the king’s son, the golden boy…” [1/3/23, 12:18:33 am] Sam: Anyway, sorry, I’ll reply to the rest asap but I’m juggling working with wanting to make that point - sorry, im dreadful [1/3/23, 12:18:41 am] Oli: Arbeit macht frei [1/3/23, 12:18:42 am] Oli: AMF [1/3/23, 12:18:55 am] Sam: I’m probably being unfair to Fred but I have a terrible inability to be insincere (for all my other many faults) [1/3/23, 12:19:04 am] Sam: Also yes when are you around? 👀 [1/3/23, 12:19:06 am] Oli: Well all humans are complex beings [1/3/23, 12:19:19 am] Oli: Always it seems before I’m sectioned [1/3/23, 12:19:25 am] Oli: Haha am quite normally around [1/3/23, 12:19:33 am] Oli: From Thurs onward prob [1/3/23, 12:34:17 am] Sam: Ah neat - so Thursday you’re around? Just that I’m away over there wiener [1/3/23, 12:34:27 am] Sam: The weekend, dammit [1/3/23, 1:07:49 am] Sam: Didn’t Al’s pa buy his castle? Lord Clark of Civilisation, haha… I suppose that’s why the implied definition of aristocracy (in his furniture line) is ‘made it at least one generation ago’, lol [1/3/23, 1:08:48 am] Sam: Ohhh I finally parsed this message - haha I love that sketch [1/3/23, 1:10:37 am] Sam: Yes I think Fred jokingly said that Irish peerages were referred to as potatoes, possibly in the sense that they’re easy to come by (which is certainly an odd thing to say about Irish people and potatoes … maybe I’m missing the joke somehow, lol) [1/3/23, 1:12:29 am] Sam: Oh yeah I’m a big fan too, not of the virtue ethics shit ultimately, but her paper Modern Moral Philosophy is one of the cleverest papers I’ve read - I mean clever as opposed to wise, important, etc, but not as an insult either - it’s quite brilliant in how she dispenses with so many great philosophers [1/3/23, 1:12:55 am] Sam: But yeah I think she was quite a close associate / student of his - she was one of a few people who were at his deathbed iirc [1/3/23, 1:15:04 am] Sam: This is very true, and all ridiculous, and all works in progress, not magna opera - I have to remind myself of that now and again [3/3/23, 12:18:26 am] Oli: Yes! Also next week. So there could be a time that works for you somewhere in that time. I am sure it shall be achieved soon! [3/3/23, 12:18:51 am] Oli: I think so! He drew the line under himself… clever! [3/3/23, 12:20:24 am] Oli: Not heard this before but it wouldn’t be surprising. It doesn’t seem to make much sense but it sounds like a silly joke against the Irish! [3/3/23, 12:23:47 am] Oli: Some people genuinely think they’re doing wonders and aren’t able to see the wood from the trees. To those people it probably seems as though they’re like Jesus… bit of an exaggeration but there is probably an element of truth… probable slight ignorance of situation in certain ways. I think that happens a lot with people trying to do the ‘right’ thing. [3/3/23, 12:26:54 am] Oli: It’s been a long time since I’ve read or discussed this! Just having briefly looked it up I see it’s linked to virtue ethics and MacIntyre (on Wikipedia) and vaguely recall that. I like her three theses as summarised. I will put her back on my list to read. [3/3/23, 12:28:49 am] Oli: I like reading all of these and then reading the counter papers. It traps one in a circle. Wonderful! [3/3/23, 12:29:57 am] Oli: As we can see from all of these philosophy papers! 🫣 ‎[6/3/23, 5:19:48 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [6/3/23, 5:20:17 pm] Oli: Friend staying in club in Rome. Look at the third name down from t’ top. (They can stay there as reciprocals). [6/3/23, 5:20:19 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 [10/3/23, 7:12:02 pm] Oli: Are you around [10/3/23, 7:12:07 pm] Oli: Just in town [10/3/23, 7:12:31 pm] Oli: Am around RA went to RA event himmlered it 🤣 the president came to tell me off so I said she’s just following orders [10/3/23, 7:12:36 pm] Oli: With artist friend [10/3/23, 7:12:44 pm] Sam: Hahaha [10/3/23, 7:12:45 pm] Oli: Party later on Bruton Place [10/3/23, 7:12:50 pm] Oli: May not go but could go for a bit [10/3/23, 7:12:51 pm] Sam: Nur befehle befolgt [10/3/23, 7:12:53 pm] Oli: And have booze [10/3/23, 7:12:54 pm] Oli: Haha [10/3/23, 7:13:04 pm] Sam: Yeah I’m around-ish 😅 [10/3/23, 7:13:09 pm] Oli: Brilliant [10/3/23, 7:13:13 pm] Oli: We can Himmler t bottle [10/3/23, 7:13:15 pm] Oli: Of champagne [10/3/23, 7:13:18 pm] Oli: With t artist [10/3/23, 7:13:19 pm] Oli: Or sommat [10/3/23, 7:13:29 pm] Oli: I have a video of me insulting the mad lezza woman [10/3/23, 7:13:32 pm] Oli: Calling her el presidente [10/3/23, 7:13:33 pm] Sam: Don’t know how my aristo tolerance is right now, haha [10/3/23, 7:13:34 pm] Oli: And Pinochet [10/3/23, 7:13:38 pm] Sam: I should be able to cope [10/3/23, 7:13:38 pm] Oli: He’s not aristo [10/3/23, 7:13:41 pm] Oli: Well slight Russian aristo [10/3/23, 7:13:42 pm] Oli: Haha [10/3/23, 7:13:44 pm] Oli: You met him [10/3/23, 7:13:46 pm] Oli: He’s funnny [10/3/23, 7:13:48 pm] Sam: Oh ok good [10/3/23, 7:13:51 pm] Sam: Oh I thought they were shot [10/3/23, 7:13:57 pm] Sam: Oh well [10/3/23, 7:13:59 pm] Oli: Haha some fled [10/3/23, 7:14:01 pm] Oli: Himmler Lol [10/3/23, 7:14:02 pm] Oli: And Beria [10/3/23, 7:14:26 pm] Sam: Ah yeah i think they found buried skeletons near Beria’s office or sth like that [10/3/23, 7:14:34 pm] Sam: Anyway ‎[10/3/23, 7:14:45 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [10/3/23, 7:14:49 pm] Oli: Himmlering the attendees at this awful hotel t ritz [10/3/23, 7:14:55 pm] Sam: Yeah it’d be nice to catch up! Will drop by [10/3/23, 7:15:00 pm] Sam: Oh god I can’t stand the fucking ritz [10/3/23, 7:15:21 pm] Oli: Haha it is awful [10/3/23, 7:15:26 pm] Oli: Yeesssa [10/3/23, 7:15:37 pm] Oli: Not sure what sort of event it is it sounds mad some person called ‘Ivan’ [10/3/23, 7:15:38 pm] Oli: LOL ‎[10/3/23, 7:15:42 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [10/3/23, 7:15:51 pm] Sam: The Harrods of hotels [10/3/23, 7:16:21 pm] Oli: Haha yes very I Suli’s [10/3/23, 7:16:23 pm] Oli: Unstylish [10/3/23, 7:16:27 pm] Oli: May go t v and a first [10/3/23, 7:16:30 pm] Oli: T see what’s appening [10/3/23, 7:16:35 pm] Oli: And then get bottle front car 🤣 [10/3/23, 7:17:06 pm] Oli: Ilarious [10/3/23, 7:17:33 pm] Sam: To the V&A? Otherwise I’m stumped lol [10/3/23, 7:19:59 pm] Oli: Yea haha a museum [10/3/23, 7:20:04 pm] Oli: The south Ken one you know ha ‎[10/3/23, 7:20:33 pm] Oli: Ivan’s birthday!.pdf • ‎1 page ‎document omitted [10/3/23, 7:20:38 pm] Oli: LOL [10/3/23, 7:20:43 pm] Oli: Not sure what the hell this is [10/3/23, 7:20:46 pm] Oli: Friend sent it haha [10/3/23, 7:58:27 pm] Oli: Now at v and a cafe [10/3/23, 8:15:25 pm] Sam: Oh gosh sorry [10/3/23, 8:15:39 pm] Oli: Don’t worry einrich just leaving v and a [10/3/23, 8:15:43 pm] Oli: Wondering what t do [10/3/23, 8:15:49 pm] Sam: Yeah I know the V&A, I just didn’t realise that things happened at the V&A [10/3/23, 8:16:06 pm] Oli: Haha yes tonsured madman Nick Coleridge Himmler’s it [10/3/23, 8:16:08 pm] Sam: I was under the impression that the last time a thing happened there was 1974 [10/3/23, 8:16:09 pm] Oli: He is head honcho [10/3/23, 8:16:11 pm] Oli: Like goering [10/3/23, 8:16:17 pm] Sam: Haha [10/3/23, 8:16:24 pm] Sam: I like Göring [10/3/23, 8:16:27 pm] Sam: Fellow dope fiend [10/3/23, 8:16:32 pm] Sam: Fellow queen [10/3/23, 8:16:35 pm] Oli: Fürst Göring [10/3/23, 8:16:38 pm] Sam: Not _major_ antisemite [10/3/23, 8:16:39 pm] Oli: 🤣 [10/3/23, 8:16:45 pm] Sam: Fellow, uh, art lover [10/3/23, 8:16:52 pm] Sam: Anyway [10/3/23, 8:17:11 pm] Sam: So this party is at 8 is it? Wait who is the person? [10/3/23, 8:18:16 pm] Oli: Oh don’t know LOL [10/3/23, 8:18:20 pm] Oli: Irish friend invited me [10/3/23, 8:18:27 pm] Oli: So probs just lots of people milling around [10/3/23, 8:18:32 pm] Oli: And some mutual people probably [10/3/23, 8:18:34 pm] Oli: 🤣 [10/3/23, 8:19:06 pm] Sam: Haha fair enough! [10/3/23, 8:19:22 pm] Sam: What is the anticipated Stowe quotient [10/3/23, 8:21:13 pm] Oli: Oh Stowe haha [10/3/23, 8:21:16 pm] Oli: Not sure don’t think any [10/3/23, 8:21:20 pm] Sam: (I just mean unbearable people in red trousers really) [10/3/23, 8:21:25 pm] Sam: Well [10/3/23, 8:21:27 pm] Sam: You know [10/3/23, 8:21:28 pm] Oli: My Stowe friend was going to have us but he is having a swim instead [10/3/23, 8:21:33 pm] Oli: Lots of fun friends coming apparently [10/3/23, 8:21:35 pm] Oli: So should be fun [10/3/23, 8:21:39 pm] Oli: And we can chat [10/3/23, 8:21:41 pm] Sam: Oh ok good! Haha [10/3/23, 8:21:41 pm] Oli: As Bob Hoskins said [10/3/23, 8:21:44 pm] Oli: Good t tawk ‎[10/3/23, 8:21:51 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [10/3/23, 8:22:15 pm] Sam: Hahah does the V&A serve alcohol??? [10/3/23, 8:22:29 pm] Oli: Sometimes if you are lucky [10/3/23, 8:22:33 pm] Oli: Though I had a bottle in t car ‎[10/3/23, 8:22:39 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [10/3/23, 8:22:42 pm] Oli: Motorway service stations [10/3/23, 8:22:47 pm] Oli: Sell mini bottles for the drive [10/3/23, 8:22:48 pm] Sam: If I were lucky I wouldn’t be at the V&A [10/3/23, 8:22:52 pm] Sam: Haha nah I’m kidding [10/3/23, 8:22:52 pm] Oli: Haha yes it’s odd [10/3/23, 8:22:58 pm] Sam: Weird [10/3/23, 8:22:58 pm] Oli: 🤣 [10/3/23, 8:23:11 pm] Sam: I hope you didn’t end up at the hall that is Birchanger Green [10/3/23, 8:23:15 pm] Sam: Hell* [10/3/23, 8:23:20 pm] Sam: Also home of Ben Seaton [10/3/23, 8:23:21 pm] Oli: Haha luckily nor! [10/3/23, 8:23:23 pm] Oli: Not* [10/3/23, 8:23:28 pm] Oli: Didn’t know he was there 🤣 [10/3/23, 8:23:39 pm] Sam: And staple of my childhood given family in Cambridge and house in Suffolk etc etc so lots of east anglia [10/3/23, 8:23:45 pm] Sam: I gather he was, haha [10/3/23, 8:23:53 pm] Sam: I didn’t even realise it was an actual human settlement [10/3/23, 8:23:57 pm] Sam: 🤷‍♀️ [10/3/23, 8:24:00 pm] Sam: Anyway see ya soon [10/3/23, 8:24:14 pm] Oli: Goodness [10/3/23, 8:24:25 pm] Oli: Yes good idea [10/3/23, 8:24:28 pm] Oli: It’s actually 37 Bruton place [10/3/23, 8:24:32 pm] Oli: I will wait for ya there [10/3/23, 8:24:34 pm] Oli: With funny Russian [10/3/23, 8:24:35 pm] Oli: Immler [10/3/23, 8:31:43 pm] Oli: Sorry we went wrong way to Barons Court [10/3/23, 8:31:44 pm] Oli: LOL [10/3/23, 8:31:47 pm] Oli: Now ont way back t green park [10/3/23, 8:31:54 pm] Oli: Were just talking nonsense ont tube [10/3/23, 8:51:42 pm] Oli: Now green park [10/3/23, 8:59:05 pm] Oli: ‎Location: https://maps.google.com/?q=51.506905,-0.142780 [10/3/23, 8:59:41 pm] Sam: Oh neat - I’ll head down soon (it’s just down the road from me here, really) [10/3/23, 8:59:56 pm] Sam: Sorry, I feel a bit odd for some reason, perhaps I ought to have some drugs [10/3/23, 9:00:17 pm] Sam: Actually I think I need some sugar or red bull perhaps [10/3/23, 9:00:18 pm] Oli: Have some here [10/3/23, 9:00:21 pm] Oli: 🤣 [10/3/23, 9:00:23 pm] Oli: Immler [10/3/23, 9:00:35 pm] Sam: I will try both and join you imminently!! [10/3/23, 9:00:34 pm] Oli: Oh ok that’s good will be fun t see you [10/3/23, 9:00:39 pm] Oli: Haha [10/3/23, 9:00:47 pm] Oli: Good idea [10/3/23, 9:25:04 pm] Oli: It is fun vibe here [10/3/23, 9:25:06 pm] Oli: Room for relaxing [10/3/23, 9:26:55 pm] Sam: Ah, nice! sorry, let me just put on some relatively presentable clothes and then stroll down [10/3/23, 9:27:09 pm] Sam: What’s the social scene like? [10/3/23, 9:27:56 pm] Sam: Also I have some meth if you want some, though I think meth smoking may be regarded as somewhat épatant and possibly Not The Done Thing [10/3/23, 9:29:43 pm] Oli: Oh yes l! [10/3/23, 9:29:46 pm] Oli: Haha it may be fun [10/3/23, 9:29:55 pm] Oli: They are ont cooooke too [10/3/23, 9:29:59 pm] Oli: It’s quite fun [10/3/23, 9:30:03 pm] Oli: Not too many but lively [10/3/23, 9:31:54 pm] Oli: Nice room to talk to people with good sound [10/3/23, 9:32:00 pm] Oli: Some women and men [10/3/23, 9:32:04 pm] Oli: Or girls and boys ahaha [10/3/23, 9:38:35 pm] Oli: Fun German here surnamed Scheidt. Am talking about his bodily functions with a name like that [10/3/23, 9:38:37 pm] Oli: 🤣 [10/3/23, 9:55:47 pm] Oli: It’s a very hipster party only 2 people here or 3 I know [10/3/23, 9:55:56 pm] Oli: Haha not anything you’re expecting much [10/3/23, 9:55:58 pm] Oli: But it’s fun [10/3/23, 9:56:18 pm] Oli: Ukrainians and Russians too [10/3/23, 9:56:20 pm] Oli: Haha [10/3/23, 9:56:22 pm] Sam: Oh gosh sorry - yeah I have an Uber on the way so I should be there soon! Just getting some clothes on [10/3/23, 9:56:29 pm] Sam: Always a good combo!! [10/3/23, 9:56:30 pm] Oli: Good idea [10/3/23, 9:56:34 pm] Oli: Quite [10/3/23, 9:56:50 pm] Sam: Haha sorry my brain isn’t quite up to speed - I did in fact formerly have clothes on, lol [10/3/23, 9:57:02 pm] Oli: That’s funny I am like that [10/3/23, 9:57:06 pm] Sam: Anyway, won’t be long(er) [10/3/23, 9:57:15 pm] Oli: Haha am sure will see you! [10/3/23, 9:57:15 pm] Sam: 😅 [10/3/23, 9:57:42 pm] Sam: ‎Location: https://maps.google.com/?q=51.519051,-0.136719 [10/3/23, 9:57:58 pm] Oli: ‎Location: https://maps.google.com/?q=51.510689,-0.145595 [10/3/23, 9:57:59 pm] Sam: ^ I’m basically across Oxford Circus from you [10/3/23, 9:58:06 pm] Oli: Oh yes quite close [10/3/23, 9:58:07 pm] Oli: Gosh [10/3/23, 9:58:12 pm] Sam: Ah nice - I’ll make sure you don’t move, haha [10/3/23, 9:58:21 pm] Sam: Or however one would express that in English [10/3/23, 9:58:37 pm] Sam: Christ I’m gonna have a vache rouge [10/3/23, 9:58:48 pm] Oli: ‎Missed voice call [10/3/23, 9:58:51 pm] Oli: Wrong button [10/3/23, 9:58:52 pm] Sam: Ok that’s a red cow but I can’t remember the bloody word for bill [10/3/23, 9:58:53 pm] Oli: Was ont call [10/3/23, 9:58:53 pm] Sam: Bill [10/3/23, 9:58:56 pm] Sam: Bill [10/3/23, 9:59:00 pm] Sam: Fucking autocorrect I give up [10/3/23, 9:59:02 pm] Oli: Haha yes good idea [10/3/23, 9:59:22 pm] Oli: My friend Jonathan coming soon too he is fun dPhil Physics [10/3/23, 9:59:23 pm] Oli: Oriel [10/3/23, 9:59:25 pm] Oli: Rhodes must fall [10/3/23, 9:59:27 pm] Oli: 🤣 [10/3/23, 9:59:36 pm] Oli: It’s a fun eclectic mix here [10/3/23, 9:59:36 pm] Sam: Ah yes oriel, nice liberal college [10/3/23, 9:59:47 pm] Sam: Haha nah I’m sure he’s not bad [10/3/23, 9:59:56 pm] Sam: The Peterhouse of Oxford, lol [10/3/23, 9:59:58 pm] Oli: He’s fun! [10/3/23, 10:00:03 pm] Oli: Haha well probably int it [10/3/23, 10:00:10 pm] Sam: No no I’m not being serious [10/3/23, 10:00:14 pm] Oli: 🤣 [10/3/23, 10:00:18 pm] Sam: Haha I talk about this as if I actually went to either [10/3/23, 10:00:28 pm] Oli: Well I’ve been to both [10/3/23, 10:00:30 pm] Oli: Anyone can go [10/3/23, 10:00:32 pm] Oli: Just drive there [10/3/23, 10:00:33 pm] Oli: 🤣 [10/3/23, 10:01:06 pm] Sam: Hahah I know Cambridge, long family association w Cambridge, grandparents were fellows and I was up there all the time (as I mentioned above re good old birchanger green) - Oxford no fucking clue [10/3/23, 10:01:14 pm] Sam: One aunt went to Oxford and that’s pretty much it [10/3/23, 10:01:18 pm] Sam: Oh and my mum I suppose [10/3/23, 10:01:21 pm] Oli: Good idea [10/3/23, 10:01:26 pm] Oli: Most of mine were trinity Dublin [10/3/23, 10:01:33 pm] Oli: Had a gt uncle at Oxford but otherwise not many [10/3/23, 10:01:34 pm] Oli: 🤣 [10/3/23, 10:01:40 pm] Sam: If Maurice boars means anything to you I have some great stories from her [10/3/23, 10:01:46 pm] Sam: Bowra* [10/3/23, 10:01:49 pm] Oli: Ah never heard [10/3/23, 10:01:50 pm] Sam: Not boars 🐗 [10/3/23, 10:01:51 pm] Oli: Shall google [10/3/23, 10:01:56 pm] Sam: Oh just an old queen [10/3/23, 10:02:08 pm] Sam: Anyway will get a coat and check on my Uber man [10/3/23, 10:02:13 pm] Oli: Ok good idea [10/3/23, 10:02:15 pm] Oli: 🥂 [10/3/23, 10:19:46 pm] Oli: Am being sketched now good idea [10/3/23, 10:22:00 pm] Sam: Sorry sorry sorry - I’ve had an emergency sock shortage - I’m just getting shoes on and am about to head out ‎[10/3/23, 10:22:14 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [10/3/23, 10:22:15 pm] Oli: Me [10/3/23, 10:22:21 pm] Sam: (I do now have socks - sorry, realise that might read rather confusingly) [10/3/23, 10:22:23 pm] Oli: Don’t worry socks are a problem [10/3/23, 10:22:24 pm] Oli: Haha [10/3/23, 10:22:28 pm] Sam: Hahahaha [10/3/23, 10:22:36 pm] Sam: I know, like WHERE THE FUCK DO THEY GO [10/3/23, 10:22:55 pm] Sam: Is there some kind of sock-crazed erlkonig who steals them [10/3/23, 10:23:02 pm] Oli: I think so [10/3/23, 10:23:04 pm] Sam: The Sockkönig [10/3/23, 10:23:08 pm] Sam: I choose to believe this [10/3/23, 10:23:09 pm] Oli: König von sock [10/3/23, 10:23:10 pm] Oli: Yes [10/3/23, 10:23:12 pm] Sam: One sec, will text you when I’ve left [10/3/23, 10:23:14 pm] Sam: Hahaha [10/3/23, 10:23:15 pm] Oli: Ok ‎[10/3/23, 10:38:51 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [10/3/23, 10:39:02 pm] Sam: Uber driver’s journey here looks about as long as the journey itself, lol [10/3/23, 10:39:56 pm] Sam: And don’t worry I totally understand if it’s dead or even finished by then (though it’s only 10 mins I guess - but I know I’m already late) [10/3/23, 10:40:07 pm] Oli: Exciting t see you [10/3/23, 10:40:11 pm] Oli: Haha no it’s getting started [10/3/23, 10:40:14 pm] Oli: Mroe arriving [10/3/23, 10:40:30 pm] Sam: Is he Psmith’s friend or do you mean more [10/3/23, 10:40:32 pm] Sam: Haha [10/3/23, 10:40:36 pm] Oli: Psmirh hahaha [10/3/23, 10:40:40 pm] Oli: Wodehouse an [10/3/23, 10:40:44 pm] Oli: Wodehousian [10/3/23, 10:40:46 pm] Oli: More aha [10/3/23, 10:41:11 pm] Sam: Lol was about to say I no longer know which of your messages are typos and which are the northern argot [10/3/23, 10:41:21 pm] Oli: Both [10/3/23, 10:41:27 pm] Oli: Northern argot prompts auto correct [10/3/23, 10:41:35 pm] Oli: Which looks like typo [10/3/23, 10:46:52 pm] Oli: Just made Germans piss themselves about Himmler etc [10/3/23, 10:46:54 pm] Oli: Singing songs [10/3/23, 10:46:56 pm] Oli: 🤣 [10/3/23, 10:54:23 pm] Sam: Ok I’m here I think [10/3/23, 10:54:32 pm] Sam: Just been having a nice chat with my Uber driver [10/3/23, 10:54:36 pm] Sam: What’s the number again? Sorry! [10/3/23, 10:54:53 pm] Oli: 37 [10/3/23, 10:55:48 pm] Oli: Coming down [10/3/23, 10:55:53 pm] Sam: I think I can hear you but it probably could be any of the people there [11/3/23, 3:05:04 am] Sam: Christ I spend all evening trying to fucking escape, lol [11/3/23, 3:05:30 am] Oli: Aha sometimes you do that but I get it ‎[11/3/23, 3:15:48 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [11/3/23, 3:16:24 am] Sam: Gonna be a million years in the freezing cold because Mohammed can’t escape the traffic law panopticon [11/3/23, 3:16:32 am] Sam: Bloody Mohammed [11/3/23, 3:32:22 am] Oli: That’s ridiculous [11/3/23, 3:32:31 am] Oli: Über is rlly silly [11/3/23, 3:32:35 am] Oli: Hope you’re back now x [11/3/23, 3:32:41 am] Oli: Good to see you [11/3/23, 4:15:11 am] Oli: Everyone said they liked your company [11/3/23, 4:16:11 am] Sam: Oh thanks! I’m back now, yeah, and thanks for inviting me! I had a nice time! I’m really sorry for being so judgemental - I do like people, and I had a nice time!! I wonder that you still invite me, lol, but thank you 🙏 [1/4/23, 8:58:59 pm] Sam: Btw I don’t suppose you’re around this weekend or next weekend? I have someone staying at mine who’s in search of some friends in London, and I figured you were probably the most sociable person in London, haha [1/4/23, 8:59:07 pm] Sam: This weekend or next week* dammit [1/4/23, 9:06:40 pm] Oli: Ello Ello [1/4/23, 9:06:47 pm] Oli: Sorry I did not see this! [1/4/23, 9:06:51 pm] Oli: Was lovely to see you back then! [1/4/23, 9:06:59 pm] Oli: Yes! [1/4/23, 9:07:11 pm] Oli: I am around this weekend aha. Next weekend in country at party thing [1/4/23, 9:07:20 pm] Oli: Most sociable person maybe overstatement haha [1/4/23, 9:07:25 pm] Oli: But yes sounds good [1/4/23, 9:07:49 pm] Oli: What are you up to? [1/4/23, 9:08:54 pm] Oli: Wonder how old the lodger/guest is [1/4/23, 9:09:05 pm] Oli: Will be fun to meet! [1/4/23, 9:45:41 pm] Sam: Ah shit sorry! Was in Primark! [1/4/23, 9:45:53 pm] Sam: Seem to have rejected or silence d tits call somehow [1/4/23, 9:45:58 pm] Sam: Silenced your call* [1/4/23, 9:46:17 pm] Sam: Anyway, not up to much, feel free to swing by [1/4/23, 9:46:24 pm] Sam: (W1T 1TL) [1/4/23, 9:46:27 pm] Oli: Ahndighr yes sorry [1/4/23, 9:46:32 pm] Oli: Was just getting answer phone [1/4/23, 9:46:33 pm] Sam: or else if there’s something going on we can come [1/4/23, 9:46:37 pm] Sam: Sorry, can’t seem to answer [1/4/23, 9:46:40 pm] Oli: Didn’t realise primark was open [1/4/23, 9:46:50 pm] Sam: Are you calling by WhatsApp? I’ve got some weird new Samsung earphones that the kid bought me [1/4/23, 9:46:56 pm] Sam: So prob a bit fucked with my phone [1/4/23, 9:48:48 pm] Oli: Ah it was sms I think not sure [1/4/23, 9:48:54 pm] Oli: Yes can come over and see you both [1/4/23, 9:49:03 pm] Oli: Just with a funny one in Notting Hill [1/4/23, 9:49:05 pm] Sam: Also lol I just bought a new pipe from a new pipe shop - guy took one look at me and said ‘crystal pipe?’ [1/4/23, 9:49:10 pm] Sam: Lol oh dear [1/4/23, 9:49:12 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [1/4/23, 9:49:21 pm] Oli: That’s a good idea [1/4/23, 9:49:30 pm] Sam: Haha sounds good! I’ll keep my phone on loud! Also kid’s number is [1/4/23, 9:49:31 pm] Sam: Wait one sec ‎[1/4/23, 9:49:43 pm] Sam: ‎Contact card omitted [1/4/23, 9:49:50 pm] Sam: Sorry, he’s not a kid [1/4/23, 9:49:57 pm] Sam: I just don’t like his name (Ryan) [1/4/23, 9:56:25 pm] Oli: Ah yes a funny name I wonder what etymology origin is [1/4/23, 9:56:51 pm] Oli: Great just sorting self out [1/4/23, 9:56:59 pm] Oli: No mad Russians tonight at least [1/4/23, 10:05:01 pm] Oli: Shall try ring in mo [1/4/23, 10:05:14 pm] Sam: Oh sorry I’m just trying to get in [1/4/23, 10:05:14 pm] Oli: Just driving Battersea back to not hill [1/4/23, 10:05:21 pm] Sam: Stupidly left keys at home and kid isn’t answering [1/4/23, 10:05:26 pm] Sam: Very fucking helpfully [1/4/23, 10:05:32 pm] Sam: Sorry, hes ok usually [1/4/23, 10:05:35 pm] Oli: Oh dear [1/4/23, 10:05:38 pm] Oli: Hope he is ok [1/4/23, 10:05:49 pm] Sam: Him???!!!!! [1/4/23, 10:05:56 pm] Oli: Maybe he’s unconscious?! [1/4/23, 10:05:58 pm] Oli: I wonder [1/4/23, 10:06:05 pm] Sam: Nah I’m kidding but Christ it’s freezing and I don’t know what the fuck is going through his mind [1/4/23, 10:06:15 pm] Sam: I dunno, I’ll update you tho! [1/4/23, 10:06:20 pm] Sam: We can hope [1/4/23, 10:07:12 pm] Oli: Hopefully goodness it sounds awful [1/4/23, 10:12:27 pm] Oli: Maybe I will find you standing outside… [1/4/23, 10:12:44 pm] Oli: Dear Lord [1/4/23, 10:24:30 pm] Oli: ‎Missed voice call [1/4/23, 10:24:36 pm] Oli: Are you stuck [1/4/23, 10:24:42 pm] Oli: 💀 [1/4/23, 10:24:48 pm] Sam: Oh shit sorry I did just get in [1/4/23, 10:24:58 pm] Oli: Ok good!! [1/4/23, 10:25:01 pm] Sam: Very angry but he has a somewhat good reason [1/4/23, 10:25:09 pm] Sam: So it’s just coexisting anger and sympathy lol [1/4/23, 10:25:20 pm] Oli: Phew [1/4/23, 10:25:27 pm] Oli: At least alive and in haha [1/4/23, 10:26:18 pm] Oli: How long will you both be awake for [1/4/23, 10:27:44 pm] Oli: I will be awake hahs [1/4/23, 10:34:30 pm] Sam: Oh shit [1/4/23, 10:34:32 pm] Sam: A while [1/4/23, 10:34:40 pm] Sam: Since he smoked some of my meth [1/4/23, 10:34:43 pm] Sam: While I was away [1/4/23, 10:35:04 pm] Sam: I’m not annoyed somehow but slightly alarmed, but judging by the intensity of this conversation we’ll be awake a while [1/4/23, 10:38:27 pm] Oli: Goodness [1/4/23, 10:38:35 pm] Oli: Sounds an ordeal [1/4/23, 10:38:42 pm] Oli: Tales of lodgers [1/4/23, 10:38:57 pm] Oli: I will be frei in hour or so so could come over [1/4/23, 10:45:34 pm] Oli: Sorry just left phone on oddly [1/4/23, 10:45:53 pm] Oli: Sounds familiar! [1/4/23, 11:09:38 pm] Oli: If you’re all on good standing now haha I can see you both in an hr? Finishing here then get ready [1/4/23, 11:27:07 pm] Sam: Sounds good! I’ll leave my phone on loud (it is on loud now 👍 ✔️ [1/4/23, 11:27:13 pm] Sam: Ah shit shit shit I meant to send that [1/4/23, 11:28:33 pm] Sam: Yeah, sitting up, evening still feels very early, utterly no chance of sleep, but really sorry that I caught this so late - totally understand if you can’t any more, really sorry to have got so buried in this conv [1/4/23, 11:29:18 pm] Oli: Oh I can aha don’t worry [1/4/23, 11:30:02 pm] Oli: Ha well it happens! [1/4/23, 11:30:12 pm] Sam: It’s 61 Goodge St, W1T 1TL :) [1/4/23, 11:30:24 pm] Sam: Sorry, I’ll keep the phone on loud, and I’ll move us next to the window [1/4/23, 11:31:41 pm] Oli: Ah I see I shall try and find it. Am sure will. Will be under hr [1/4/23, 11:45:24 pm] Sam: Thank you so much! See you soon! Do you want any mixers? I’m doing a GoPuff order [1/4/23, 11:46:25 pm] Oli: Goodness! Good idea. What about cooooke? [1/4/23, 11:46:32 pm] Oli: Coke a cola 🤣🤣 [1/4/23, 11:47:00 pm] Oli: I shall drive over as an totally normal. Now sorting self out. Funny day! I’m [1/4/23, 11:48:15 pm] Oli: I like gopuff I used it a while ago. I forget what now I think zap [2/4/23, 12:09:03 am] Sam: Ah shit amazing I’ll order now - lemme know when you’re here [2/4/23, 12:17:22 am] Sam: Btw you were serious about Coca Cola right? [2/4/23, 12:17:39 am] Oli: Ah yes aha if ok [2/4/23, 12:17:48 am] Oli: In Marylebone road now [2/4/23, 12:17:51 am] Oli: On [2/4/23, 12:18:16 am] Sam: Ah perfect, ok, we’ll be on high alert!! [2/4/23, 12:19:32 am] Oli: Presumably phoning the police 🤣🤣 [2/4/23, 12:20:17 am] Oli: Am also meeting my white powder dealer [2/4/23, 12:20:27 am] Oli: On t street ! [2/4/23, 12:20:36 am] Oli: As arrive [2/4/23, 12:20:38 am] Oli: All good timing [2/4/23, 12:22:35 am] Oli: Maybe your friend will like it [2/4/23, 12:22:54 am] Sam: Shall we come down [2/4/23, 12:23:03 am] Sam: Sorry, kid is nattering and it’s hard to focus [2/4/23, 12:23:22 am] Sam: Who’d have thought you shouldn’t give 18 year olds meth [2/4/23, 12:23:29 am] Oli: Haha just 5 min away [2/4/23, 12:23:32 am] Oli: Good idea! [2/4/23, 12:24:09 am] Sam: Ahhh nice ok [2/4/23, 12:24:21 am] Sam: Yes Damien thought so too… strange [2/4/23, 12:25:06 am] Oli: Haha [2/4/23, 12:31:50 am] Oli: m Around [2/4/23, 12:32:48 am] Sam: Are you on the st? [2/4/23, 12:32:54 am] Oli: Think so [2/4/23, 12:33:08 am] Sam: Ahhh ok lemme send location, and go outside [2/4/23, 12:33:19 am] Sam: ‎Location: https://maps.google.com/?q=51.519081,-0.136715 [2/4/23, 12:34:00 am] Oli: Aha I see [2/4/23, 12:34:04 am] Oli: Got round one place [2/4/23, 12:34:05 am] Oli: On way [2/4/23, 12:34:10 am] Oli: ‎Location: https://maps.google.com/?q=51.519806,-0.137054 [2/4/23, 12:34:57 am] Sam: Oh Jesus you are basically here [2/4/23, 12:35:39 am] Sam: When you hear a soft-voiced 18-year-old stammering lots, you’re here [2/4/23, 12:36:08 am] Oli: Am outside [2/4/23, 12:36:10 am] Oli: Can’t hear haha [2/4/23, 12:36:50 am] Oli: At 61 [2/4/23, 12:36:52 am] Oli: Door [2/4/23, 12:36:54 am] Oli: Lot of buzzers [2/4/23, 12:37:19 am] Sam: Ah shit I’ll come down [2/4/23, 12:37:40 am] Oli: Ah good idea [2/4/23, 12:37:42 am] Sam: One sec [2/4/23, 12:37:54 am] Sam: Yes I have maintained that position [2/4/23, 12:38:02 am] Oli: 🤣 [2/4/23, 8:03:44 am] Oli: What a lovely evening. Apologies for keeping you all up! Thank you for thinking of me. It was lovely to meet the kid, Ryan. A very nice person with lots of potential. A lovely, naturally inquisitive human! Very nice time! [2/4/23, 10:36:20 pm] Sam: Oh shit, sorry, I totally missed this! Very overloaded today! It was lovely to see you, and I think Kid really liked you too! We should do it again - sorry for the slightly chaotic drug-fuelled conversation, prob calmer next time :) ‎[4/6/23, 10:02:20 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/6/23, 10:02:20 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/6/23, 10:02:21 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/6/23, 10:02:26 am] Sam: Bell Ranch ‎[4/6/23, 10:03:03 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/6/23, 10:49:12 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/6/23, 10:56:08 am] Oli: Ah yes gives some context! [4/6/23, 11:03:43 am] Sam: Also yes sorry I don’t know how I get wrapped up in these conversations [4/6/23, 11:08:43 am] Oli: Easily done when we think about a lot and go off on tangents! [4/6/23, 11:10:50 am] Oli: I often do the same! [4/6/23, 11:11:20 am] Sam: Oh yeah 100%, esp for me, lol [4/6/23, 11:11:40 am] Sam: Went a bit uncomfortably Inception-like at points [4/6/23, 11:11:57 am] Sam: But much improved vs the demented phase earlier on ‎[4/6/23, 11:27:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[20/7/23, 8:05:10 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[20/7/23, 8:05:10 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [20/7/23, 8:06:45 am] Sam: Sorry, didn’t mean to add caption twice! [20/7/23, 8:08:49 am] Oli: Goodness! [20/7/23, 8:08:52 am] Oli: Not heard this! [20/7/23, 8:09:42 am] Oli: 🤣 [20/7/23, 8:09:50 am] Oli: doesn’t even sound serious! [20/7/23, 8:09:56 am] Sam: Oh good! Maybe forget you did! My bad! (It’s also possible that my Very Secret Anonymous Source (lol, but I don’t want to completely doss him in) hallucinated it or summat!) [20/7/23, 8:10:18 am] Oli: Sounds very odd story indeed!! [20/7/23, 8:10:22 am] Sam: I don’t know quite what’s going on in my life lol [20/7/23, 8:10:24 am] Oli: Imagine hitting someone with a loo! [20/7/23, 8:10:27 am] Oli: Mop* [20/7/23, 8:10:31 am] Sam: I’m Liam-Rhys! [20/7/23, 8:10:44 am] Oli: Yes I feel the same sometimes [20/7/23, 8:10:49 am] Sam: That would be quite an extreme step! [20/7/23, 8:10:52 am] Oli: Don’t quite know what’s happened!! [20/7/23, 8:12:32 am] Sam: Narcotism and the supersession of the black cab [20/7/23, 8:12:43 am] Sam: Good indie band name [18/8/23, 11:57:52 pm] Oli: Happy Birthday. Returns of the day etc. (Happy as they say and many of them!) I am still, funny it may seem, processing what you sent (the papers etc and writing about it/thinking). I understand your sentiment though and where the initial ‘at odds’ are. Anyway, that’s that so far. Am in touch with Ryan must get back to him and meet up with him. I should take him to supper. A nice man he is! Happy birthday etc. 🎂🎉🎊 [19/8/23, 12:29:09 am] Sam: Ah, thanks! I know everyone needs time to think. Do take Ryan to supper! I’m sure he’d take a more forgiving view than I would. In any case he’s a good egg and I’m glad you get on. I’m trying to tread the line between forgiveness and the selling of indulgences. With Freddie I have no compunction. Would’ve hollowed out my soul to keep that up any longer. I don’t mind what anyone does, and if he wants to behave like an Ancien Régime aristocrat then, well, I can’t say it’s fine by me but I wouldn’t fight it - but to then pretend to care and pretend to share my concerns, that’s when it becomes intolerably insincere. But anyway! To mutability! ‎[23/8/23, 11:12:35 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [23/8/23, 11:12:40 pm] Oli: Qm Slape [23/8/23, 11:12:53 pm] Oli: Was able t’ photo Instagram message he sent expiring on iPad [23/8/23, 11:13:18 pm] Oli: Genuinely terrified of him! [23/8/23, 11:13:27 pm] Oli: Not sure what to do or say so I just reacted ‘haha’ [23/8/23, 11:13:55 pm] Sam: Epistulae ex Slapos [23/8/23, 11:14:11 pm] Sam: His parent (singular) was punished by being sent to the desert ? [23/8/23, 11:14:36 pm] Sam: Is this an arid desert or is it Antarctica again? [23/8/23, 11:14:59 pm] Sam: Oh it’s Africa, right, just the continent generally [23/8/23, 11:15:06 pm] Sam: One big desert, as we all know [23/8/23, 11:15:28 pm] Sam: What role does the barrel have? [23/8/23, 11:15:35 pm] Sam: Or rôle as my grandma would say [23/8/23, 11:15:35 pm] Oli: Yes his English isn’t the best. Perhaps he means he’s been sent to the desert to punish him. [23/8/23, 11:15:39 pm] Oli: Similar to Antarctica! [23/8/23, 11:16:06 pm] Oli: What is an eye flying hospital? [23/8/23, 11:16:25 pm] Oli: He inspected and tested a plane? [23/8/23, 11:16:32 pm] Oli: Maybe he deliberately writes obscurely to confuse. [23/8/23, 11:17:00 pm] Sam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbis_International#The_Orbis_Flying_Eye_Hospital maybe ?? ‎[23/8/23, 11:25:03 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [23/8/23, 11:25:43 pm] Sam: Page: https://knaviation.net/orbis-flying-eye-hospital-md-10/ Image: https://knaviation.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Orbis-Flying-Eye-Hospital-MD-10-3.jpg ‎[24/8/23, 1:24:57 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [24/8/23, 2:39:33 pm] Oli: Funny looks exactly the same as the picture he sent! Even similar display on the monitors… [24/8/23, 2:40:00 pm] Oli: Even similar view out the window! [24/8/23, 2:40:54 pm] Oli: So Slape was on it during its visit to Africa after he was somehow banished there. [24/8/23, 2:41:03 pm] Oli: You’re lucky he’s been sent to the desert and isn’t there! [24/8/23, 4:27:33 pm] Sam: In case you’re not joking, I’m saying it _is_ the image he sent. That’s a DC-10 owned by a charity called Orbis, manufacturer serial no 46800, tail code N330AU, parked at CRK (Clark Airport in the Philippines) since May of this year. As far as I know, there are two occasions on which a jumbo jet pilot has pulled off a barrel roll (not ‘role’), the first a test pilot who did a barrel roll in a Boeing 707 and gave the CEO a heart attack, the second a manoeuvre to dislodge a disgruntled crew member (not Slape) who was attempting to bludgeon the crew to death with a claw hammer. Neither incident involved Slape. ‎[25/8/23, 1:40:25 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 1:40:56 am] Oli: Ah was not being clear in my clocking. Though I didn’t know the other information. Thank you for that. ‎[25/8/23, 1:41:56 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 1:42:12 am] Sam: Good god, he shared the name of the fucking charity he stole the photo from? [25/8/23, 1:42:48 am] Sam: Is his penultimate message meant to be in English? [25/8/23, 1:43:05 am] Sam: (‘Meant to be English’? ‘Meant to be in English’??) [25/8/23, 1:43:17 am] Oli: I think so. Some failed attempt to justify his claim or being caught out. ‘Sorry I didn’t mean to; I just got out of hand’. [25/8/23, 1:43:41 am] Sam: Let’s break that down [25/8/23, 1:44:08 am] Oli: He says he’s in middle America now?? Not Africa? [25/8/23, 1:44:17 am] Oli: You try middle America fucking shit hole basically how Australia wants to be 51st state of America [25/8/23, 1:44:57 am] Sam: - I don’t even know day [sic, recte why?] it is - my parents sent me [the image? the plane?] to sort it The second point appears to be the excuse. What does this mean? How is it an excuse? To what end are these words employed? [25/8/23, 1:45:19 am] Oli: Yet recognises that he sent that image supposedly in an ‘out of it’ state. Caught himself out again. [25/8/23, 1:45:20 am] Sam: Middle America? The Midwest? Central America? [25/8/23, 1:46:03 am] Oli: Or his parents sent him to the plane ‘to sort it’. [25/8/23, 1:46:06 am] Oli: ‘As punishment’ [25/8/23, 1:46:11 am] Oli: He did say he was sent to the desert. [25/8/23, 1:46:25 am] Oli: Slape is the only one with the requisite expertise you see. ‎[25/8/23, 1:47:03 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 1:47:12 am] Oli: Makes no sense actually whatsoever. Contradicts himself. [25/8/23, 1:47:42 am] Oli: Says sorry he didn’t mean to send that and pretend it was his photo he can’t remember what day it is thus he’s ‘out of it’ but his parents sent him to The plane?? [25/8/23, 1:47:50 am] Oli: So why not just send his own photo? Very odd! [25/8/23, 1:49:04 am] Sam: To sort a McDonnell-Douglas DC-10 made in the 1970s by a company which ceased to exist a quarter of a century ago? Which was upgraded to the MD-10 shortly before, a variant operated iirc only by FedEx and this charity (which was given that one plane in about 2015ish iirc by FedEx, since they’d previously sold it to FedEx and the latter had upgraded it to an MD-10)? [25/8/23, 1:49:26 am] Oli: That’s right! [25/8/23, 1:49:27 am] Sam: What expertise exactly does Slape have in operating mid century wide body airliners? [25/8/23, 1:49:43 am] Sam: Or is it for his ophthalmology experience? [25/8/23, 1:50:26 am] Oli: I suspect his mother’s mother’s mother was a de Havilland, so he’s got some aircraft knowledge. It went from there really… he learnt the rest in his own time! [25/8/23, 1:50:39 am] Oli: Because my recent behavioural status has not befit of the family was the excuse and my mother also used the opportunity to call me fat and she said “ you will be going to America and dealing with this situation we have changed your Glyndebourne ticket, to a friend and your flight has been booked, you’ve only got premium economy Im not that cruel, but you are going end of.” [25/8/23, 1:51:01 am] Oli: Hence why he’s been sent to [Middle America/the desert]. [25/8/23, 1:51:20 am] Oli: Sounds a lovely mother! [25/8/23, 1:51:40 am] Oli: Glyndebourne tickets can be exchanged for flights! [25/8/23, 1:52:16 am] Oli: Only premium economy mind. And NO KRUG! Just whatever they have there. Put up with it, son! [25/8/23, 1:52:58 am] Oli: Glad the flight was booked seeing as they’d managed to get a ticket for it… [25/8/23, 1:53:13 am] Oli: Basically I’ve made a tit of myself and my mother is pissed off [25/8/23, 1:53:58 am] Sam: Is this meant to somehow relate to his photo of the cockpit of that charity’s DC-10?? [25/8/23, 1:54:28 am] Oli: Yes, it’s quite convoluted but it all links up you see! [25/8/23, 1:54:46 am] Oli: Hence why he sends screenshots/saved images of the cockpit, despite being there himself. [25/8/23, 1:54:57 am] Sam: Does premium economy include barrel rolls? [25/8/23, 1:55:18 am] Oli: Yes. The people in economy don’t experience it though. [25/8/23, 1:56:17 am] Oli: My mother knows everyone and “after it seems he’s broken the engagement to his ex partner he’s turned into Amy whinehouse or alex wino” [25/8/23, 1:56:20 am] Sam: “Please tighten your seatbelts and nail your shitty gin and tonics to the tray, we are about to rapidly turn the plane upside down” [25/8/23, 1:56:26 am] Oli: On how his mother found out he’s made a fool of himself [25/8/23, 1:56:36 am] Oli: His mother knows us. She was privy to our chats. [25/8/23, 1:56:40 am] Oli: Hence her disapproval of her son. [25/8/23, 1:57:08 am] Sam: She clearly reads the ECHELON intercepts [25/8/23, 1:57:33 am] Sam: I mean w t fuck is he aphasing about? [25/8/23, 1:58:07 am] Oli: Must be some deep paranoia about being caught out for the fake photo, which he sent when he wasn’t in the right state yet remembers sending… [25/8/23, 1:58:19 am] Sam: That’s a fucking flying ophthalmological hospital, why on earth would he lie about that? How does that tie in to any of his past lies? Like, what, they’re now philanthropophthalmologists? [25/8/23, 1:59:01 am] Sam: Is he doing the “I’ll admit I’m lying without being specific about what the lie was” thing? (I think he was but I’m too dazed to reread) [25/8/23, 1:59:42 am] Oli: Maybe trying to branch out the storyline a bit. To show how he’s up there and with it when it comes to ‘latest’ developments. [25/8/23, 2:00:33 am] Sam: Maybe also a charity ref since he picked up on the latent dogoodism in my messages … or maybe I’m expecting too much [25/8/23, 2:00:38 am] Oli: I suspect so. Or maybe it’s more a case of ‘yes oh god you caught me but here’s some subterfuge, which is also a deep lie. I shall self-destruct in a moment.’ [25/8/23, 2:01:03 am] Sam: But you hadn’t caught him yet! Or have I missed something? [25/8/23, 2:01:04 am] Oli: Could be! [25/8/23, 2:01:17 am] Sam: Well, you had, but he didn’t know it, from the looks of it [25/8/23, 2:01:20 am] Oli: Oh I think I caught him by sending him the photo he sent me pretending it was his. [25/8/23, 2:01:32 am] Oli: And think he registered by saying ‘oh I think I sent that sorry’ [25/8/23, 2:01:44 am] Oli: I’m sorry I think I sent that on insta I don’t even know day it is my parents sent me to sort it [25/8/23, 2:01:45 am] Oli: As punishment [25/8/23, 2:02:17 am] Sam: Oh but he sent the YouTube link himself?! [25/8/23, 2:02:39 am] Sam: I mean, that clearly outs him, unless he’s pretending his parents … what, run that charity? I don’t even know any more [25/8/23, 2:02:45 am] Oli: Yes but probably not with that photo which he presumed I was too silly to find (maybe wouldn’t have found it). [25/8/23, 2:02:53 am] Sam: Also shows that the aircraft was acquired about 10 years ago iirc [25/8/23, 2:03:08 am] Sam: And, again, McDonnell-Douglas has not existed since the end of the last millennium [25/8/23, 2:03:27 am] Sam: True true, I guess! But the video! [25/8/23, 2:03:59 am] Sam: And a fucking barrel roll in a jumbo jet? The last plumber really fucked something up in his prefrontal cortex [25/8/23, 2:04:28 am] Sam: Why can he not stop telling utterly preposterous lies????? [25/8/23, 2:04:41 am] Sam: Just … can not, will not, does not even understand the question [25/8/23, 2:05:22 am] Sam: Slape lie? [25/8/23, 2:05:24 am] Sam: No! [25/8/23, 2:05:29 am] Sam: Slape sorry! [25/8/23, 2:05:45 am] Sam: Slape have brief moment of self-awareness! [25/8/23, 2:05:52 am] Sam: Slape inspire hope!! [25/8/23, 2:05:53 am] Sam: ….. [25/8/23, 2:06:00 am] Sam: Slape do barrel roll in jumbo jet ‎[25/8/23, 2:06:15 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:06:43 am] Oli: Stumbling outside the RAC, London’s grandest club. Of course they have monitors watching everyone and how they walk. [25/8/23, 2:07:42 am] Oli: ‘It’s only funny to us’ = a loony convention [25/8/23, 2:07:48 am] Sam: What third-line psychotropic drug sounds like ‘distraction’? 🤔 [25/8/23, 2:08:43 am] Sam: _Otium tibi molestum est ~Catulle~ Slape_ - Grendel’s mother [25/8/23, 2:09:17 am] Sam: This is yet another Slapism - he just doesn’t have the savoir faire to make up the right references [25/8/23, 2:10:04 am] Sam: (It would be trite to say none of these people have that savoir faire. Many do! There are many quite decent frauds out there with an encyclopaedic knowledge of exactly the right clubs, the right cars, the right clarets …. but not our Slape…) [25/8/23, 2:10:20 am] Oli: She on the board and sponsors the charity [25/8/23, 2:10:29 am] Oli: His mother re flying hospital [25/8/23, 2:10:40 am] Sam: They don’t think it be that way but it do [25/8/23, 2:10:57 am] Sam: Does she breed flight engineers? [25/8/23, 2:11:12 am] Oli: She said you need to get away, you are going as volunteering work for us tough if you don’t like it [25/8/23, 2:11:21 am] Oli: Among other things. [25/8/23, 2:11:53 am] Sam: He does realise this is public information for any charity, right….? ‎[25/8/23, 2:12:56 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:13:14 am] Sam: That’s their UK affiliate admittedly. I cba to check the US board but I will if I have to… [25/8/23, 2:13:14 am] Oli: Don’t think so! [25/8/23, 2:13:31 am] Sam: Ok lemme check the US just for comprehensiveness [25/8/23, 2:14:14 am] Oli: Now saying he went in B52. Asking about the barrel roll! [25/8/23, 2:14:21 am] Oli: Or the role the barrel played? [25/8/23, 2:14:29 am] Oli: Slapian English [25/8/23, 2:14:35 am] Oli: They went zero gravity also he now says. ‎[25/8/23, 2:14:38 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:14:56 am] Sam: Unpaid trustees/directors will be board members ^ [25/8/23, 2:14:57 am] Oli: See filing for 2 more —> [25/8/23, 2:15:03 am] Oli: ‘Lady Slape’ will be there! [25/8/23, 2:15:29 am] Oli: Good god. [25/8/23, 2:15:43 am] Oli: To stress test the aircraft apparently! ‎[25/8/23, 2:16:42 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:17:25 am] Oli: Ah, but, rookie error, you forget that the Slape’s aren’t mere mortals. They like mystery and have to keep a very LOW profile. Just like his grandmother, hence why the truth about her and Mussolini isn’t out. [25/8/23, 2:17:47 am] Sam: I think the doctor meant G as in the general factor of intelligence [25/8/23, 2:17:54 am] Sam: Or perhaps GHB [25/8/23, 2:17:58 am] Oli: Um well nose diving a passenger jet from 39,000feet to 10,000 feet [25/8/23, 2:18:28 am] Sam: Sorry, what on earth is this about? ‎[25/8/23, 2:18:41 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:18:51 am] Oli: After I asked how his flight was. [25/8/23, 2:19:16 am] Sam: Indeed - we might find out that she’s got Hitler in the garage freezer! [25/8/23, 2:20:02 am] Sam: The fucking Food and Drug Administration?? [25/8/23, 2:20:40 am] Sam: I can tell him it’s gonna be a pretty hard pill to swallow ‎[25/8/23, 2:20:57 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:21:01 am] Sam: Also it’s a fucking DC-10 [25/8/23, 2:21:07 am] Sam: It was introduced in the fucking 1970s [25/8/23, 2:21:17 am] Oli: Oh not even a Boeing [25/8/23, 2:21:25 am] Sam: Again, McDonnell-Douglas ceased to exist in the late 90s [25/8/23, 2:21:28 am] Oli: He said B52 as well which apparently a Boeing [25/8/23, 2:21:46 am] Sam: Technically now a Boeing since Boeing swallowed MD [25/8/23, 2:22:09 am] Oli: MD-11 he says [25/8/23, 2:22:15 am] Sam: I mean, the B52 was a postwar heavy bomber, where the fuck does it come into this? [25/8/23, 2:22:16 am] Oli: Later series to this apparently [25/8/23, 2:22:27 am] Sam: Nope, it’s an MD-10 [25/8/23, 2:22:47 am] Sam: Fit-out of the DC-10 for cockpit equivalence with the MD-11 which was a newly introduced plane [25/8/23, 2:22:49 am] Oli: Listening to an aircraft system constantly go chirping is maybe terrifying“pull up, pull up, pull up; bank angle, pull up” [25/8/23, 2:22:55 am] Oli: He’s watched a few videos! [25/8/23, 2:23:23 am] Sam: Only done for FedEx - Orbis had previously sold the plane to FedEx, in which time FedEx had it upgraded to the MD-10 designation, and then donated it back a few years later when done with it [25/8/23, 2:24:26 am] Sam: He has! What a waste of time! [25/8/23, 2:24:34 am] Oli: Why would this aircraft just nose dive to stress test itself? [25/8/23, 2:24:40 am] Oli: With random passengers on board? [25/8/23, 2:25:08 am] Oli: So there’s no MD-11? [25/8/23, 2:25:34 am] Sam: It wouldn’t, and it’s a 70-year-old plane that’s long since been tested by McDonnell-Douglas itself (and Convair who handled a lot of the manufacturing because … ok I cba) [25/8/23, 2:26:04 am] Sam: Operators of planes do not carry out ‘stress tests’ - least of all charities with very expensive equipment and sick people on board [25/8/23, 2:26:42 am] Sam: No, there is - that was a new plane, and the MD-10 was an upgrade they offered for the (older) DC-10, so that it would be broadly equivalent to the MD-11 as far as pilots were concerned [25/8/23, 2:26:53 am] Sam: (i.e. key rating compatibility) [25/8/23, 2:27:05 am] Oli: Ah but the one he sent was DC-10 [25/8/23, 2:27:07 am] Sam: Why the fuck do I know this nonsense [25/8/23, 2:27:26 am] Sam: Was an MD-10 - i.e. a DC-10 with some upgrades applied to the cockpit [25/8/23, 2:27:58 am] Sam: It had previously been a DC-10 when Orbis first acquired it - it was upgraded to an MD-10 by FedEx after Orbis sold it to FedEx, and then FedEx later donated it back [25/8/23, 2:28:22 am] Sam: I may have mixed up the various names in some of my messages - if so, sorry! [25/8/23, 2:28:31 am] Oli: It became an MD11 when Slape acquired it [25/8/23, 2:29:06 am] Sam: Indeed! [25/8/23, 2:29:13 am] Sam: These are all shitty old bangers anyway [25/8/23, 2:29:28 am] Sam: The sort of thing that Mongolia Air would use for domestic flights [25/8/23, 2:29:52 am] Sam: Kam Air from Kabul to Islamabad ‎[25/8/23, 2:30:11 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:30:46 am] Sam: I honestly can’t tell you the difference between an MD-10 and MD-11 cockpit so you’ll have to just go on the obvious identical-ness of the images [25/8/23, 2:30:58 am] Oli: Yes I think that’s the best [25/8/23, 2:31:04 am] Sam: If he refuses to admit that the pigeon is dead, then I can look up whatever differences I’m sure exist [25/8/23, 2:31:04 am] Oli: And the image they say is of an MD10 [25/8/23, 2:31:06 am] Sam: There’ll be a few [25/8/23, 2:31:34 am] Sam: But yeah I’m sure it’s an MD-10 and that it’s _that_ MD-10 [25/8/23, 2:31:47 am] Sam: He can’t seriously deny that [25/8/23, 2:31:50 am] Sam: That they’re the same photo ‎[25/8/23, 2:31:56 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:32:01 am] Sam: I mean, the positions of the flight instruments are arguable [25/8/23, 2:32:10 am] Sam: Most of them are how any such plane would look while on the ground [25/8/23, 2:32:15 am] Oli: The display of the control stuff etc is the same [25/8/23, 2:32:18 am] Oli: Hmm [25/8/23, 2:32:19 am] Oli: Oh I see [25/8/23, 2:32:26 am] Sam: Except for the heading indicator which has ~359:1 odds of being in that position [25/8/23, 2:32:27 am] Oli: But the view from the window is the same [25/8/23, 2:32:31 am] Sam: But the stuff outside the window [25/8/23, 2:32:33 am] Sam: Snap [25/8/23, 2:32:34 am] Oli: Yes [25/8/23, 2:32:47 am] Sam: Utterly inconceivable, beyond reasonable doubt levels of impossibility [25/8/23, 2:33:21 am] Sam: Did he apply some sort of visual effects to the photo, or was that just the result of you photographing it with another phone [25/8/23, 2:33:21 am] Oli: He’s trying to avoid talking about it! [25/8/23, 2:33:31 am] Oli: Just me photographing ‎[25/8/23, 2:33:44 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:33:48 am] Sam: Ahh ok - then for all he knows you’ve got the original [25/8/23, 2:33:48 am] Oli: Now saying he’s not sure [25/8/23, 2:33:54 am] Oli: He doesn’t know what he was standing in! [25/8/23, 2:33:56 am] Sam: I mean the exact photo / pixels that he sent [25/8/23, 2:34:19 am] Sam: In which case … well, I guess a very brave soul could argue that a pixel-perfect coincidence is not literally impossible [25/8/23, 2:34:24 am] Sam: But it’s pretty fucking implausible ‎[25/8/23, 2:35:19 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:35:41 am] Sam: For an sRGB image the odds are 256^3^numofpixels [25/8/23, 2:36:29 am] Sam: Yeah this is pretty implausible for a plane but [25/8/23, 2:36:34 am] Sam: Plane nut [25/8/23, 2:36:45 am] Sam: The cockpit might be hard to distinguish but the MD-11 is a much larger plane [25/8/23, 2:36:50 am] Sam: Oh well [25/8/23, 2:36:54 am] Sam: So much for his inspection [25/8/23, 2:37:05 am] Sam: The board might have to get a second opinion on that one [25/8/23, 2:37:28 am] Sam: “Quality assurance notes: got plane wrong” ‎[25/8/23, 2:37:52 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:37:53 am] Sam: Original Slape report: “this is a very bad, short MD-11” ‎[25/8/23, 2:37:57 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:38:25 am] Sam: Yeah this is a pretty fucking hard one to argue against, lol [25/8/23, 2:38:43 am] Sam: If he refuses to see the obvious, the heading indicator is a pretty simple thing to focus on [25/8/23, 2:38:52 am] Sam: Like a clock hand at the same exact minute [25/8/23, 2:39:07 am] Sam: *6 ‎[25/8/23, 2:39:10 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:39:25 am] Sam: Though of course it’s not like we can discriminate the exact degree from that photo, I guess [25/8/23, 2:39:51 am] Sam: “Personally I don’t care” [insincerityometer explodes] [25/8/23, 2:39:56 am] Oli: He’s waiting for FDA approval then he can return home [25/8/23, 2:40:01 am] Oli: For the plane or himself? [25/8/23, 2:40:08 am] Oli: Yes quite. He seemed To care a lot! [25/8/23, 2:40:17 am] Sam: Is the plane safe to eat? [25/8/23, 2:41:26 am] Sam: Slape is an Olympic gold medallist in caring ‎[25/8/23, 2:41:49 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:43:03 am] Sam: It’s not a crap version of a 747, it’s a smaller one [25/8/23, 2:43:17 am] Oli: He doesn’t know a lot about planes [25/8/23, 2:43:26 am] Oli: (Response to being caught out) [25/8/23, 2:43:33 am] Sam: Intended to cover flight paths of the same distance but to be able to land on smaller runways [25/8/23, 2:43:59 am] Sam: Neither do I, to be clear [25/8/23, 2:44:02 am] Sam: I’m not a twitcher or whatever they’re called with planes [25/8/23, 2:44:08 am] Sam: I’m more of a trainspotter myself ‎[25/8/23, 2:44:14 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:44:15 am] Sam: But Jesus Christ [25/8/23, 2:44:45 am] Oli: I said jokingly we have decorum when we shoot in England, we wear Barbours or tweed ever heard of that before? [25/8/23, 2:44:56 am] Oli: Slape the country gent [25/8/23, 2:45:15 am] Sam: You can land it into mountains in Antarctica, if you’re a Slape [25/8/23, 2:45:19 am] Oli: Well, you can read/absorb more than him! [25/8/23, 2:45:21 am] Sam: No tarmac required [25/8/23, 2:46:01 am] Sam: This was a dark joke about a DC-10 whose idiot pilot flew it into (iirc) Mount Erebus on a sightseeing flight over Antarctica [25/8/23, 2:46:46 am] Sam: Do you think you can apply the same interrogation technique that the Etonians profitably applied to Slape’s fishing CV? [25/8/23, 2:46:58 am] Sam: i.e. “what do you actually shoot at?” [25/8/23, 2:47:10 am] Oli: His foot! [25/8/23, 2:47:51 am] Sam: Or maybe the difference between a bullet and a cartridge and a shell [25/8/23, 2:48:15 am] Sam: Ah yes, while in his mouth [25/8/23, 2:49:23 am] Sam: My childhood best friend’s dad was a big hunter and I know my way around a shotgun - I can prob provide interrogation advice [25/8/23, 2:49:40 am] Sam: My preferred quarry was always the clay pigeon [25/8/23, 2:49:45 am] Sam: A noble and majestic bird ‎[25/8/23, 2:49:44 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:50:55 am] Sam: Oh my god is Purdeys the pallet mall place [25/8/23, 2:50:55 am] Oli: ‘Clay’ emoji [25/8/23, 2:50:58 am] Sam: Fucking autocorrect [25/8/23, 2:51:08 am] Sam: The one on the corner coming down from whatever it’s called [25/8/23, 2:51:07 am] Oli: Ah yes! [25/8/23, 2:51:12 am] Sam: Haymarket or summat [25/8/23, 2:51:26 am] Sam: Yeah I remember going there with the aforementioned dad of friend [25/8/23, 2:51:38 am] Sam: What does it actually do? Clothes or fishing rods or something like that? [25/8/23, 2:51:50 am] Oli: Guns! A reputable maker of guns! [25/8/23, 2:51:51 am] Sam: Can’t quite remember what he actually got there, haha [25/8/23, 2:51:54 am] Oli: Maybe other stuff but known for guns [25/8/23, 2:52:06 am] Sam: Oh they make guns? Oh weird, I don’t remember guns being very prominent in that shop for some reason [25/8/23, 2:52:18 am] Oli: Ah yes and accessories/clothing they say online [25/8/23, 2:52:33 am] Sam: I remember going to Holland and Holland and Beretta with them but don’t recall seeing guns in Purdeys [25/8/23, 2:52:43 am] Sam: Weird [25/8/23, 2:52:49 am] Oli: Never been in! Maybe they can’t have them on public view [25/8/23, 2:52:52 am] Sam: Maybe the branch we went to was more clothing and accessories [25/8/23, 2:52:58 am] Oli: I will be flying out of this place and home [25/8/23, 2:53:00 am] Sam: Ah yeah also poss - or that they don’t [25/8/23, 2:53:04 am] Sam: But the other two do I think [25/8/23, 2:53:11 am] Oli: He’ll Barrel roll Back! [25/8/23, 2:53:15 am] Sam: Via Antarctica perhaps [25/8/23, 2:53:26 am] Sam: Maybe doing a few circumnavigations of the globe [25/8/23, 2:53:51 am] Sam: Helical manoeuvres on all four axes [25/8/23, 2:53:54 am] Sam: (Space and time) ‎[25/8/23, 2:54:31 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:54:48 am] Sam: Did she perhaps say Prozac? [25/8/23, 2:55:31 am] Sam: “How to seem right posh: say ‘shan’t be’ all the time” [25/8/23, 2:55:36 am] Oli: Did you see the Liam-Rhus screenshot Damien sent? [25/8/23, 2:55:52 am] Oli: Liam-RhYa basically telling Damien Slape is a nutter off his meds! [25/8/23, 2:55:58 am] Oli: That was an interesting development [25/8/23, 2:56:01 am] Sam: Reminds me of my dad’s running joke about my brother’s school, that it’s full of Essex parents who send them there “so they’ll come out all posh the other end” [25/8/23, 2:56:26 am] Sam: (He actually just got his GCSE results back and did very well, so more fools them) ‎[25/8/23, 2:56:27 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 2:56:54 am] Sam: Godddd [25/8/23, 2:56:57 am] Oli: That’s very odd usually Liam-Rhys is trying to pretend ‘all is well’ [25/8/23, 2:57:05 am] Sam: Liam-Rhys getting in some delusional fantasy of his own there [25/8/23, 2:57:07 am] Oli: And denying that Slape’s a raving loon. I wonder what prompted that. [25/8/23, 2:57:11 am] Sam: Like fucking Simon and Garfunkel here [25/8/23, 2:57:17 am] Sam: Slape is Simon [25/8/23, 2:57:39 am] Sam: Nah there’s been a marked shift in his foreign policy paradigm [25/8/23, 2:57:50 am] Oli: Bloody hell! [25/8/23, 2:57:55 am] Sam: It began when he told Martin that he was in the process of trying to break up with Slape [25/8/23, 2:58:01 am] Oli: ?!?! [25/8/23, 2:58:04 am] Sam: Which is of course a vexed and bilateral negotiation [25/8/23, 2:58:14 am] Oli: I see. [25/8/23, 2:58:24 am] Oli: This is all a bit too much my god 🤣 [25/8/23, 2:58:35 am] Sam: Since then he’s been tentatively opposing the Slapian motherlode [25/8/23, 2:58:41 am] Sam: He’s gone non-aligned [25/8/23, 2:58:48 am] Sam: Detached from the metropole [25/8/23, 2:58:55 am] Oli: So he’s trying to force his own fantasies on others now? [25/8/23, 2:59:14 am] Sam: Slape or Leery? [25/8/23, 2:59:20 am] Oli: Liam-Rhys [25/8/23, 2:59:24 am] Oli: Leery [25/8/23, 2:59:47 am] Sam: It’s passive radar [25/8/23, 3:00:05 am] Sam: He’s maintaining his necessary fantasies but not unsolicitedly foisting new ones on others [25/8/23, 3:00:41 am] Sam: Only the inner defensive wall of Czech hedgehogs around the withered clubbed ego [25/8/23, 3:01:05 am] Oli: Extraordinary that he’s been contacting people. [25/8/23, 3:01:22 am] Oli: This is all crazy news! [25/8/23, 3:01:46 am] Sam: Oh no, only when contacted, I think! Hence passive radar! [25/8/23, 3:01:56 am] Sam: It’s like 68! [25/8/23, 3:02:08 am] Sam: Soixante huitards, those two [25/8/23, 3:02:14 am] Sam: Huitards of some sort at least [25/8/23, 3:02:28 am] Oli: Yes! Tards! [25/8/23, 3:02:37 am] Sam: I wonder if he’ll eventually get Slexit done [25/8/23, 3:02:48 am] Oli: He may barrel roll out of it. [25/8/23, 3:03:02 am] Sam: Crashing out with no deal [25/8/23, 3:03:06 am] Sam: WTO rules [25/8/23, 3:03:16 am] Sam: Trade with Slape on the same terms as trade with anyone else [25/8/23, 3:03:19 am] Oli: Yes it’s for the best. Sovereignty for Liam-Rhys [25/8/23, 3:03:23 am] Sam: No special intercourse between them [25/8/23, 3:03:34 am] Oli: Only beat him up like you would anyone else [25/8/23, 3:03:53 am] Sam: A monopoly on the legitimate use of force within Chateau Maison Lime [25/8/23, 3:04:03 am] Sam: Snap [25/8/23, 3:04:13 am] Sam: Threads nicely woven back together there [25/8/23, 3:04:20 am] Sam: Nicely barrel-rolled into one [25/8/23, 3:04:26 am] Oli: So Slape is realistically in Limehouse now. [25/8/23, 3:04:32 am] Oli: Not the desert! [25/8/23, 3:05:05 am] Sam: Isn’t that where the happy couple had their marital home? ‎ [25/8/23, 3:05:20 am] Sam: He’ll have to go into exile [25/8/23, 3:05:26 am] Sam: Perhaps in Canning Town [25/8/23, 3:05:39 am] Oli: Presumably. His ‘flatmate’ had been away so he got rid of L-R [25/8/23, 3:05:41 am] Sam: I went to Canning Town today and I think it’s a suitable abode [25/8/23, 3:05:57 am] Oli: Oh! Maybe he’s had to leave! Yes. Hence his excuse for not being anywhere. [25/8/23, 3:06:06 am] Oli: Not that anyone saw him anyway poor man! [25/8/23, 3:06:40 am] Sam: Like Victor Hugo or Charles Fox [25/8/23, 3:06:49 am] Oli: Yes I was driving around there once!! Odd! [25/8/23, 3:07:51 am] Sam: No, we were so desperate for contact that we had to cruelly rescue him from neighbouring businesses that had taken pity on him after he ~drunkenly collapsed on the street~ got a bit tight and became indisposed in the course of his wayward flânerie and Canali shopping [25/8/23, 3:08:11 am] Sam: Around is certainly wiser than through [25/8/23, 3:08:36 am] Sam: But mention it to my parents and they’re guaranteed to say it’s ‘up and coming’ [25/8/23, 3:09:05 am] Sam: The fucking Khyber pass is up and coming if you ask middle upper middle class north east Londoners ‎[25/8/23, 3:09:04 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[25/8/23, 3:09:14 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 3:09:34 am] Oli: Just stupid example but essentially pointing out the logical inconsistencies (lies) of what he’s saying [25/8/23, 3:09:56 am] Oli: Khyber Rd near Clapham Junction Station! [25/8/23, 3:10:00 am] Sam: ‘Up and coming’ is Middle Class English for ‘an unsalvageable shithole that’s more likely to appear in a Foreign Office warning than an issue of Foxtons magazine’ [25/8/23, 3:10:34 am] Sam: I wouldn’t know, I don’t go to the public school potters field that is inner south west London [25/8/23, 3:10:54 am] Sam: In fact it’s off permanently! [25/8/23, 3:11:10 am] Sam: Perhaps it’s made of mercury? [25/8/23, 3:11:17 am] Sam: Or arsenic [25/8/23, 3:11:25 am] Sam: Or enriched uranium [25/8/23, 3:11:57 am] Oli: Slape says L-R left him for another man! [25/8/23, 3:11:58 am] Sam: Especially with his weight gain [25/8/23, 3:12:03 am] Oli: At ‘ROH’. What’s ROH? [25/8/23, 3:12:36 am] Sam: It’s easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for any ring of human manufacture to slide off Slape’s engorged and distended saveloy fingers [25/8/23, 3:12:44 am] Sam: Covent Garden I think he means [25/8/23, 3:12:54 am] Oli: Ah royal opera house [25/8/23, 3:13:10 am] Sam: If he spoke the argot of the kinda class he’s trying to be, he’d know it’s called Covent Garden [25/8/23, 3:13:14 am] Sam: Yeah presumably ‎[25/8/23, 3:13:22 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 3:13:53 am] Oli: So I’ve decided I’m going back to my original hair colour which is actually naturally blonde [25/8/23, 3:13:59 am] Oli: He’s a bleach blond? [25/8/23, 3:14:23 am] Sam: It was strawberry blond supposedly when we were speaking to him at the party that morning ‎[25/8/23, 3:14:25 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 3:14:30 am] Oli: Natural [25/8/23, 3:14:34 am] Sam: And from the photos he showed us that appeared to mean brown [25/8/23, 3:14:45 am] Sam: Why is everyone so ashamed of brown hair and brown eyes [25/8/23, 3:14:53 am] Sam: It’s the Sam of hair-eye combinations [25/8/23, 3:15:00 am] Sam: The name Sam I mean [25/8/23, 3:15:11 am] Sam: Doesn’t bother me that much ‎[25/8/23, 3:15:19 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 3:15:28 am] Sam: He’s not only bleaching his hair, he’s bleaching his nature [25/8/23, 3:15:37 am] Sam: Bleaching his self-concept [25/8/23, 3:15:57 am] Sam: Bleaching the cruel stigma of brown hair [25/8/23, 3:16:09 am] Oli: Yes it’s not bad! [25/8/23, 3:16:16 am] Oli: Natural blond [25/8/23, 3:16:20 am] Oli: He’s actually insane [25/8/23, 3:16:28 am] Oli: Quite! [25/8/23, 3:17:12 am] Sam: It is if you’re Slape! [25/8/23, 3:18:15 am] Sam: Had he only the lustrous locks of the leucotrichous, he could at long last be happy [25/8/23, 3:18:23 am] Sam: But alas [25/8/23, 3:18:24 am] Sam: Eheu [25/8/23, 3:18:32 am] Sam: Twas not to be [25/8/23, 3:18:48 am] Oli: He’s on a plane back tomorrow! Very quick! [25/8/23, 3:18:55 am] Sam: This is such an excellent shibboleth incidentally [25/8/23, 3:19:45 am] Sam: The sort of thing my grandma would politely confide in you, as if letting one in on a slightly ridiculous secret code ‎[25/8/23, 3:19:48 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 3:20:04 am] Sam: That it’s referred to as Covent Garden and not the Royal Opera House [25/8/23, 3:20:27 am] Sam: Or like correcting me about the pronunciation of Altrincham the other day [25/8/23, 3:20:28 am] Sam: Galling [25/8/23, 3:20:33 am] Sam: An unforced error [25/8/23, 3:20:51 am] Oli: Slape would have funny pronunciation! [25/8/23, 3:20:53 am] Sam: I already knew the right pronunciation from (maybe?) you and (certainly) a Grindr hookup who happened to come from the actual town [25/8/23, 3:21:09 am] Sam: ie altringam [25/8/23, 3:21:21 am] Sam: What other weird shibboleths [25/8/23, 3:21:22 am] Oli: Slape says all trench ham! [25/8/23, 3:21:29 am] Oli: Or trinch [25/8/23, 3:21:44 am] Sam: Claret and not Bordeaux (ok that’s a basic one, not a particularly shrewd observation there) [25/8/23, 3:21:45 am] Sam: Uh [25/8/23, 3:21:50 am] Sam: What else [25/8/23, 3:21:51 am] Sam: Dammit [25/8/23, 3:22:21 am] Oli: 🤣 [25/8/23, 3:22:25 am] Sam: Uhhhh [25/8/23, 3:22:35 am] Sam: Pal Mal [25/8/23, 3:22:38 am] Sam: Rubbish though [25/8/23, 3:22:39 am] Oli: Could make many I suppose! [25/8/23, 3:22:40 am] Sam: I’m drawing a blank [25/8/23, 3:22:46 am] Sam: Sure there are others [25/8/23, 3:22:48 am] Oli: Ah yes clubs. St James’s > Pall Mall [25/8/23, 3:22:49 am] Oli: 🤣 [25/8/23, 3:23:33 am] Oli: Side by side not over under [25/8/23, 3:23:34 am] Oli: Shooting [25/8/23, 3:23:38 am] Sam: Oh, less pronunciation/naming based, but: knowing that the wine ritual is to check if it’s corked, and not to evaluate whether you generally like the wine [25/8/23, 3:23:39 am] Oli: Lol esoteric madness [25/8/23, 3:23:55 am] Oli: This esoteric [25/8/23, 3:23:59 am] Oli: I suppose it all is [25/8/23, 3:24:05 am] Sam: Prefabricated bow ties: a capital offence [25/8/23, 3:24:19 am] Sam: How do you do? How do you do ‎[25/8/23, 3:24:38 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 3:24:45 am] Sam: Glyndebourne: pronounced stupidly [25/8/23, 3:24:47 am] Oli: I’m good thanks - Liam-Rhys [25/8/23, 3:24:53 am] Sam: Bayreuth: also pronounced stupidly [25/8/23, 3:25:26 am] Oli: He signed the paperwork. Tested whatever aircraft it was! AND NOW HE’S COMING HOME! [25/8/23, 3:25:29 am] Oli: Hell or high water! [25/8/23, 3:25:46 am] Oli: Another one [25/8/23, 3:25:50 am] Oli: How are you? ‘Good.’ [25/8/23, 3:25:55 am] Oli: Funny idea [25/8/23, 3:26:09 am] Oli: Asked how the person was not how they think of themselves. [25/8/23, 3:26:20 am] Oli: So ‘good’ awful reply! [25/8/23, 3:26:23 am] Sam: Napkins (not serviettes or whatever the fuck else), placed pointlessly on lap and then dumped unceremoniously in heap on table [25/8/23, 3:27:02 am] Sam: Fork and knife: poised advisedly in pre-Morse signalling symbology ‎[25/8/23, 3:27:21 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 3:27:46 am] Sam: Bill: requested with elaborate charade of inditing on palm [25/8/23, 3:27:52 am] Sam: (Not check) [25/8/23, 3:28:06 am] Sam: Oh I give up, these are all rubbish, I’ll remember the good ones later ‎[25/8/23, 3:28:19 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 3:28:23 am] Sam: A bridge as well perhaps? Make it a meal? [25/8/23, 3:30:28 am] Sam: Planes! Get your planes! Cheap, inspected, septuagenarian! Got all yer usual aircrafts - got yer 747s, 757s, 767s, exetruh! [25/8/23, 3:31:24 am] Sam: Ask him if he’ll give you a 747 and a 767 for the price of two 757s? [25/8/23, 3:31:25 am] Oli: A company is selling them, they are old from like delta, united they just do the job [25/8/23, 3:31:58 am] Oli: Yes 747 out of service [25/8/23, 3:32:05 am] Sam: It’s very unusual for an airline to own its own planes ‎[25/8/23, 3:32:08 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 3:32:11 am] Sam: Delta may [25/8/23, 3:32:16 am] Sam: United probably won’t [25/8/23, 3:32:19 am] Oli: Apparently a few in service for VIP [25/8/23, 3:32:22 am] Sam: They’re leased [25/8/23, 3:33:01 am] Sam: Do you mean the BBJ? [25/8/23, 3:33:14 am] Sam: The Boeing Business Jet [25/8/23, 3:33:18 am] Sam: Probably that [25/8/23, 3:33:21 am] Sam: Saudis and the like [25/8/23, 3:33:31 am] Oli: Could be! Just looked that up. [25/8/23, 3:33:35 am] Sam: Think one of the Sauds has one [25/8/23, 3:33:36 am] Oli: Slape could sell one of those! [25/8/23, 3:33:40 am] Oli: And Slape [25/8/23, 3:33:43 am] Sam: 747 with a lift for his car etc [25/8/23, 3:34:35 am] Sam: Of course! The Slape fleet! [25/8/23, 3:34:57 am] Sam: Someone at my old company had previously been an aeronautical engineer for Airbus [25/8/23, 3:35:10 am] Sam: And told me a HUGE part of the cost of those is markup for the fitout [25/8/23, 3:35:25 am] Sam: For the inside basically ‎[25/8/23, 3:35:27 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 3:35:58 am] Sam: Aircraft manufacturing is a horrifying hellscape of an industry tbf [25/8/23, 3:36:42 am] Sam: The companies aren’t scumbags, at least not to an unusual extent - it’s genuinely just a morass of over-regulation and complexity that’s got way waaaay out of hand [25/8/23, 3:37:02 am] Sam: Does he actually know what middle America is? [25/8/23, 3:37:23 am] Sam: Does he mean Central America or does he mean the Midwest, flyover country, whatever you’d call it, in the US? [25/8/23, 3:37:36 am] Sam: Could you ask him where he means exactly? [25/8/23, 3:38:06 am] Sam: If only because I want to see if he’ll literally say what our old friend Gatsby said to that question (San Francisco) [25/8/23, 3:39:48 am] Sam: He tried for a barrel roll and achieved a nose dive [25/8/23, 3:41:31 am] Sam: Good vs well, good one, though newly manufactured poshes liable to commit this solecism [25/8/23, 3:41:42 am] Sam: Like Freddie with ‘us English are…’ [25/8/23, 3:41:58 am] Sam: Command of the mother tongue no longer to be counted on [25/8/23, 3:42:35 am] Oli: Yes true! [25/8/23, 3:42:52 am] Sam: Eton has moved to Essex, broadly speaking [25/8/23, 3:43:05 am] Oli: Just asked him where because he says they make gay jokes about him [25/8/23, 3:43:10 am] Oli: Sounds like Alabama! [25/8/23, 3:43:26 am] Sam: Blazing Saddles, NM [25/8/23, 3:43:30 am] Oli: https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eton-given-green-light-open-230100277.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=LNCH%20%2020230822%20%20House%20Ads%20%20SM+CID_7acb2f8b774db3792f0943f1123ab402&guccounter=1 [25/8/23, 3:43:33 am] Oli: Oldham! [25/8/23, 3:43:53 am] Sam: He’s gone to some yee-haw burlesque of a redneck state [25/8/23, 3:44:10 am] Oli: He says Arizona [25/8/23, 3:44:12 am] Sam: Oh is that gonna be about the London Academy of Excellence? [25/8/23, 3:44:22 am] Oli: New ones! [25/8/23, 3:44:28 am] Oli: New candidates for excellence! [25/8/23, 3:44:33 am] Sam: Oh god [25/8/23, 3:44:33 am] Oli: Oldham, Hull and Middlesbrough! [25/8/23, 3:44:44 am] Sam: Do you know that guy Keir? (I think that’s his name) [25/8/23, 3:44:49 am] Oli: Sorry Dudley, not Hull [25/8/23, 3:44:55 am] Oli: Ghastly fool [25/8/23, 3:44:58 am] Sam: Has congenital toryism of the face and trousers [25/8/23, 3:45:04 am] Sam: Well!!!…. [25/8/23, 3:45:04 am] Oli: Pretentious Tory idiot [25/8/23, 3:45:10 am] Oli: Nasty chippy pouf! [25/8/23, 3:45:11 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [25/8/23, 3:45:15 am] Sam: I spoke to him at James Saunders’s party over the NYE [25/8/23, 3:45:21 am] Sam: Having always thought much the same [25/8/23, 3:45:50 am] Sam: He’s working at one of those weird Govean schools out in Wembley [25/8/23, 3:46:03 am] Oli: Oh yes Michaela [25/8/23, 3:46:06 am] Sam: Probably not far from here (I’m at my aunt’s at the other place) [25/8/23, 3:46:07 am] Oli: Or however one writes it [25/8/23, 3:46:17 am] Sam: And he was saying [25/8/23, 3:47:20 am] Sam: How it was a challenge to inculcate the right attitude, that realistically their chances were much worse than other people (even regular middle middle class can’t afford private fees parents’ kids), but also that fatalism was not productive and that they had some kind of chance in life and should strive for it [25/8/23, 3:47:40 am] Sam: In a sort of ‘il faut imaginer Sisyphe heureux’ sorta kamikaze kinda way [25/8/23, 3:47:53 am] Sam: I’m probably doing terrible American-style justice to his point [25/8/23, 3:48:13 am] Sam: But he struck me as actually very compassionate and thoughtful about it [25/8/23, 3:48:36 am] Sam: Maybe I got him onto the right topic, maybe one can’t help but have nuanced views about something one spends most of one’s days on [25/8/23, 3:48:44 am] Oli: Yes he says this and he genuinely does think about it/believe in it yet behaves like any other sanctimoniously didactic schoolmaster. [25/8/23, 3:49:04 am] Oli: With an air of c20 repression despite being in 2023. Odd [25/8/23, 3:49:39 am] Sam: Oh I’m sure - and I don’t have much of a mind meld with him overall, but I have some respect for him just from that [25/8/23, 3:50:31 am] Oli: He himself did well. [25/8/23, 3:50:55 am] Sam: Hell, I was reading the Peterborough Chronicles the other day and they’re barely even in an intelligible form of Middle English, but whoever wrote them has compassion and I feel some kind of mutual understanding when reading them, haha [25/8/23, 3:51:00 am] Oli: Yet he likes mingling in that crowd of gossipy queens with nothing else to do. He should strive! He has a chance to meet nicer people! [25/8/23, 3:51:59 am] Sam: Yes I don’t quite get the read-the-first-chapter-of-Brideshead people, or why he’d choose to surround himself with that, but I thought it showed at least some incipient seed of hope in the mud of false consciousness [25/8/23, 3:52:35 am] Sam: Interpellated though he be by one of the very many variants of aspirational identification with one’s overseers [25/8/23, 3:52:47 am] Sam: lol [25/8/23, 3:52:55 am] Sam: There’s hope everywhere! [25/8/23, 3:53:06 am] Oli: I wonder if I’d manage them. Maybe not! Just read about them. [25/8/23, 3:53:32 am] Oli: Good to remind ourselves of the timeline [25/8/23, 3:53:39 am] Oli: Maybe they had their own Slapes then. [25/8/23, 3:53:45 am] Sam: If thou dost forstanden haesc tunge [25/8/23, 3:53:51 am] Sam: Or summat like that [25/8/23, 3:53:57 am] Sam: Yes! [25/8/23, 3:54:52 am] Sam: But I thought that was nice, that Keir thing, that he evidently cared a hell of a lot for those kids - and tbf I don’t know for sure that he’s a Tory, I just know he wears red trousers [25/8/23, 3:55:19 am] Sam: But that’s basically the Kaposi’s sarcoma of Toryism, let’s be honest [25/8/23, 3:55:54 am] Sam: Short of carrying a brace of pheasant everywhere one goes, one struggles to say it much more clearly [25/8/23, 3:56:19 am] Oli: Well I agree he seems to care. I just don’t like him in every other aspect of his life. I don’t really know him. Never have. But for years have known of him or met briefly and just been bored. He has the air of a sanctimonious post warden. [25/8/23, 3:56:21 am] Sam: (…i’ve got stuck in a one loop) [25/8/23, 3:56:35 am] Oli: But in his professional life I’m sure is good and has the right intentions. ‎[25/8/23, 3:57:37 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 3:58:01 am] Oli: Maybe he’ll be even more immature! [25/8/23, 3:58:02 am] Sam: Yes this has been true every other time I’ve met him. I think he sings in a choir in Oxford and probably calls himself a tractarian and maybe is part of Eoghain Murphy’s unhinged now-with-even-more-paedophiles sect of the Roman church, but … he cared about those kids! We can work with that! Oikeiosis! The expanding circles of moral concern! [25/8/23, 3:58:49 am] Sam: 18?! Don’t flatter yourself! [25/8/23, 3:59:10 am] Sam: Reminds me of when I was young and my nanny told me off, and said “you’re acting like a six year old, but you’re eight now!” [25/8/23, 3:59:14 am] Sam: Or words to that effect [25/8/23, 3:59:41 am] Sam: And I thought to myself “this reflects a very precise view of child development, almost like Piaget!” [25/8/23, 4:00:06 am] Oli: A nugget of wanting to do something there. Funny how people are. [25/8/23, 4:01:14 am] Oli: He must be 5!! [25/8/23, 4:01:17 am] Sam: Funny indeed! [25/8/23, 4:02:32 am] Sam: I mean, I bow to no one in my refusal to forgive moral defects, but I still think … well, ‘nothing walks with aimless feet’, as they say! People are complicated contraptions but there’s a little actuator of goodness in there! [25/8/23, 4:03:21 am] Sam: It could go either way with someone like him: perhaps the bad and venal and pharisaical drives will snuff out the good, or perhaps the good will drive out the bad! [25/8/23, 4:03:27 am] Oli: But one can get caught up in these people’s stupidity for the sake of the actuator of goodness. [25/8/23, 4:03:48 am] Sam: And I certainly have been guilty of that too… [25/8/23, 4:03:57 am] Oli: Keir good example as he’s always usually talking, to someone else, which I overhear, about random third tier titled people he knows. [25/8/23, 4:04:01 am] Sam: Also for the sake of their callipygian physique [25/8/23, 4:04:06 am] Sam: Naming no names [25/8/23, 4:04:07 am] Oli: With great intrigue! Wow! [25/8/23, 4:04:23 am] Oli: Sanctimonious Victorian postman Keir! [25/8/23, 4:04:54 am] Oli: Yes. I am not sure how strong the good is to be a driving force. Hopefully. [25/8/23, 4:04:58 am] Sam: I could get good mileage out of that description, haha - I don’t know quite why so many people are so concerned about their social standing [25/8/23, 4:05:30 am] Sam: I think some concern is good, and (guilt vs shame debate notwithstanding) some sense of embarrassment can be a healthy thing [25/8/23, 4:05:53 am] Sam: But with Slape and arguably many ‘entre nous’ it becomes pathological [25/8/23, 4:06:30 am] Sam: I don’t know, it happens! See Fox! Or … who else? I was thinking of someone else! Fuck, my brain is broken [25/8/23, 4:07:43 am] Oli: Charles James Fox [25/8/23, 4:07:56 am] Oli: Wonder who the other one is [25/8/23, 4:08:05 am] Sam: Yup! [25/8/23, 4:08:30 am] Sam: Was a Rockingham Whig, like our friend’s ancestor; became a genuine radical Whig (still a Whig but … progress) [25/8/23, 4:09:41 am] Sam: Ruskin maybe ‎[25/8/23, 4:11:11 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 4:12:13 am] Sam: Currently strip mining the anterior reaches of my tongue [25/8/23, 4:16:10 am] Sam: No, I mean, if I’m honest, I think a lot of people say this stuff for social clout, amour-propre, whatever you want to call it, and I have a perverse and bloodyminded admiration for those whose compassion is harder fought. Had some Grindr hookup of Damien’s around the other day who was yapping americanly about how ‘woke’ he was, and how dare I express ambivalence about ‘woke’ness, etc etc, and then two seconds later was laughing about the poor and the uneducated, and I wondered if he had any particular idea what ‘woke’ meant, beyond having decided that Woke FC was the team he wanted to support… [25/8/23, 4:18:53 am] Oli: Which friend is this? Haha [25/8/23, 4:19:54 am] Oli: 🤣 [25/8/23, 4:20:13 am] Sam: Fred [25/8/23, 4:20:28 am] Sam: Duck 3 was Rock Whig [25/8/23, 4:20:34 am] Oli: Oh! Didn’t realise he had Whig links. [25/8/23, 4:21:16 am] Sam: Has Whiggism stamped on his face pretty much [25/8/23, 4:21:27 am] Sam: God I had hoped he wouldn’t be so shallow [25/8/23, 4:21:34 am] Oli: Oh yes culturally in terms of political outlook! [25/8/23, 4:21:37 am] Sam: Alas [25/8/23, 4:21:51 am] Sam: Dived in and wound up with a vertebral fracture [25/8/23, 4:22:00 am] Oli: Yes I am trying to work out which Whig it is [25/8/23, 4:22:20 am] Oli: 🦆 [25/8/23, 4:22:26 am] Oli: 🐤 [25/8/23, 4:22:37 am] Sam: Can’t quite think… Maybe Tony Benn or Tam Dalyell [25/8/23, 4:22:59 am] Sam: Actually very possibly Macmillan, though I’m not sure he ever qualified as terribly genuinely Tory (sensu malo) [25/8/23, 4:23:09 am] Oli: Sounds like a typical person of that ilk talking about ‘woke’ etc. [25/8/23, 4:23:19 am] Oli: Forgot you were still living with Damien. [25/8/23, 4:23:27 am] Oli: Couldn’t work out what actually happened there… [25/8/23, 4:23:48 am] Oli: A Grindr hookup. Fun teatime talk! Maybe later than teatime But who knows 🤣 [25/8/23, 4:24:23 am] Oli: Sounds awful [25/8/23, 4:24:28 am] Sam: Oh no I’m not any more, I’ve been a bit in and out! Am currently borrowing my aunt’s house (same aunt, different place) [25/8/23, 4:24:32 am] Sam: In the other place [25/8/23, 4:24:39 am] Sam: ‎Location: https://maps.google.com/?q=51.572670,-0.341854 [25/8/23, 4:25:04 am] Oli: Oh actually in Harrow! [25/8/23, 4:25:08 am] Oli: Thought was a joke haha [25/8/23, 4:25:12 am] Sam: Oh he was a weird one - a 4am choice more than a 10pm choice [25/8/23, 4:25:20 am] Sam: Funnily enough was from Richmond [25/8/23, 4:25:29 am] Sam: As we were informed about 20 thousand times [25/8/23, 4:25:31 am] Sam: One sec [25/8/23, 4:25:46 am] Oli: Like Attenborough [25/8/23, 4:25:53 am] Oli: I think lives/lives there ‎[25/8/23, 4:26:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 4:26:44 am] Sam: “I’m from Richmond, and people always say “are you from Richmond? Richmond?! No! That can’t be! Say it’s not so! A person? From Richmond?? No, you must have made some mistake!! [etc etc]”” [25/8/23, 4:26:45 am] Oli: Mr Richmond [25/8/23, 4:27:12 am] Sam: But no I think there’s some culpa in mea, unavoidably, really [25/8/23, 4:27:16 am] Sam: Quoth I also [25/8/23, 4:27:35 am] Oli: Nice deer in the park! [25/8/23, 4:27:39 am] Oli: Funny place! [25/8/23, 4:27:51 am] Oli: A revolving door! ‎[25/8/23, 4:27:54 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 4:28:28 am] Oli: Is he the Grindr man? [25/8/23, 4:28:31 am] Oli: That’s hilarious! [25/8/23, 4:28:35 am] Sam: No he was Damien’s guest [25/8/23, 4:28:46 am] Sam: Who, funnily enough, got with our meth dealer Brendan [25/8/23, 4:28:47 am] Oli: Never heard of a Grindr hookup getting into conversation with flatmates [25/8/23, 4:28:49 am] Oli: Brilliant [25/8/23, 4:28:52 am] Oli: Oh I see [25/8/23, 4:28:53 am] Sam: Everyone has been obsessed with Brendan for years [25/8/23, 4:29:07 am] Sam: He’s always been a bit flirty, I suspect primarily for business reasons, but nothing serious [25/8/23, 4:29:18 am] Sam: And then this random guy from Seth Efrica comes over and [25/8/23, 4:29:20 am] Sam: [one sec] ‎[25/8/23, 4:29:48 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 4:30:07 am] Sam: One did before [25/8/23, 4:30:09 am] Sam: Famously [25/8/23, 4:30:12 am] Sam: Did Damien not tell you? [25/8/23, 4:30:15 am] Sam: Mr Harrow? [25/8/23, 4:30:30 am] Sam: I came in and chatted to them for an hour or so at 3am, trying to be friendly [25/8/23, 4:30:31 am] Oli: Oh yes. I hadn’t kept a memory bank of them all by anecdote! [25/8/23, 4:30:38 am] Sam: Left to give them some ‘alone time’ [25/8/23, 4:30:39 am] Oli: I recall you mentioning him! [25/8/23, 4:30:45 am] Oli: He tried to get you! [25/8/23, 4:30:51 am] Sam: Ah yes you recall [25/8/23, 4:31:04 am] Sam: Good god that was a grim, eldritch night [25/8/23, 4:31:06 am] Oli: Mr Other-Place [25/8/23, 4:31:11 am] Oli: Followed by another one! [25/8/23, 4:31:14 am] Oli: Two in a row! [25/8/23, 4:31:19 am] Sam: Mr Here, to me right now [25/8/23, 4:31:28 am] Sam: Mr This Place [25/8/23, 4:31:49 am] Oli: My god [25/8/23, 4:31:51 am] Sam: I’ve betrayed my friends and intermittently detested acquaintances [25/8/23, 4:32:15 am] Sam: Yeah I know! [25/8/23, 4:32:20 am] Sam: He was quite ordinary looking! [25/8/23, 4:32:22 am] Sam: And almost 40! [25/8/23, 4:32:31 am] Sam: Turns out Brendan wasn’t fucking into any of us [25/8/23, 4:32:38 am] Sam: Shouldnae bought all that meth! [25/8/23, 4:33:08 am] Oli: Yes like most drug dealers [25/8/23, 4:33:10 am] Oli: Scoundrels [25/8/23, 4:33:32 am] Oli: Slape cannae buy it [25/8/23, 4:33:43 am] Oli: Well, maybe he can on dark web he claims. [25/8/23, 4:34:24 am] Sam: Also, with love and with compassion and with understanding: please do not believe anything you hear from Damien about me - I don’t mind tremendously but (as I know I’ve mentioned before with the one anecdote) I am aware that (for whatever probably understandable reason) things are finding themselves being said which do not necessarily comport in the strictest fashion with that elusive thing that one might call the truth [25/8/23, 4:34:45 am] Sam: Well, believe some stuff, haha [25/8/23, 4:34:54 am] Oli: Been to two of your housewarmings now. The living situations (living partners) always seem to go downhill after them! [25/8/23, 4:34:56 am] Sam: There’s a lot to be said that’s true, tbf [25/8/23, 4:35:01 am] Oli: Maybe housewarming parties are fateful 🤣🤣 [25/8/23, 4:35:06 am] Sam: Quite! [25/8/23, 4:35:41 am] Sam: I think I jokingly said to one of the no-shows on the fb page that it was no prob and he could come to our housecooling [25/8/23, 4:36:00 am] Oli: Haven’t heard anything… yet! [25/8/23, 4:36:26 am] Oli: Well, I’m sure lots of untruth around! [25/8/23, 4:36:31 am] Oli: Usually is! [25/8/23, 4:37:06 am] Oli: Not quite sure what’s got into Damien [25/8/23, 4:37:07 am] Oli: If anything [25/8/23, 4:37:14 am] Oli: He seems to have gone off the radar for a while. [25/8/23, 4:37:15 am] Sam: On the other hand, lest you over-adjust and come over too sceptical, he was a saint to Martin (visiting schizophrenic) and he deserves a lot of thanks for that (from Martin’s parents inter alia) that he’s probably never going to get [25/8/23, 4:37:17 am] Oli: Maybe that’s just him [25/8/23, 4:37:39 am] Sam: Not quite sure either [25/8/23, 4:37:53 am] Sam: I don’t want to make it sound like he’s a nutter and I’m at war with him, because he’s not and I’m not [25/8/23, 4:38:22 am] Sam: But I think he’s very stressed, for reasons I’ll probably never fathom because of the dishonesty that I think has become second nature to him [25/8/23, 4:38:35 am] Oli: Probably a hard life to lead really isn’t it. [25/8/23, 4:38:44 am] Oli: Writing’s always on the wall! [25/8/23, 4:38:57 am] Sam: And I don’t mean that as a criticism - I can well see how easy it is to slip into - though I do think, if not a sin, it’s at least a very unwise thing, a road to madness [25/8/23, 4:39:12 am] Sam: And occasionally elsewhere [25/8/23, 4:39:21 am] Sam: I was perhaps a bit nasty to him [25/8/23, 4:39:44 am] Oli: We can’t help ourselves! ‎[25/8/23, 4:39:46 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 4:40:12 am] Oli: Sums it up. Just read the first paragraph. [25/8/23, 4:40:18 am] Oli: As I say! [25/8/23, 4:40:20 am] Sam: It’s tough [25/8/23, 4:40:21 am] Oli: Haha alluding to that [25/8/23, 4:40:38 am] Sam: He obviously knows it as much as I do and as much as anyone else does [25/8/23, 4:40:44 am] Sam: It’s a bit like drug addiction [25/8/23, 4:41:18 am] Sam: The gods of the copybook headings limped up to explain it once more [25/8/23, 4:41:33 am] Sam: Everyone tells you how it will end [25/8/23, 4:41:40 am] Sam: Usually or often quite accurately [25/8/23, 4:42:02 am] Sam: Yet you persist in thinking that these rich old guys are going to buy and not rent you [25/8/23, 4:42:02 am] Oli: Scary living arrangements! [25/8/23, 4:42:03 am] Oli: Aw [25/8/23, 4:42:18 am] Oli: Domestic abuse! Shouting at you for cleaning! [25/8/23, 4:42:28 am] Oli: Ah that’s why you asked did you hit him with a mop… [25/8/23, 4:42:52 am] Oli: A tragicomedy [25/8/23, 4:42:54 am] Oli: Shakespearean [25/8/23, 4:43:02 am] Oli: Well, would be if it weren’t so trite by now. [25/8/23, 4:43:16 am] Sam: Because you get used to the lifestyle, and it’s so enticing to think it’ll last forever, and, much like I remember when I was on the dope, you aren’t as stupid as those who’ve never done it might think, you just persist in sorta half-thinking “hey, tomorrow’s gotta be like today, right? how can this end?” ‎ [25/8/23, 4:43:38 am] Oli: Clean when absent or asleep! [25/8/23, 4:43:43 am] Oli: Goodness [25/8/23, 4:43:56 am] Oli: How hard living can be. [25/8/23, 4:44:01 am] Sam: Yeah the neurosis about cleaning is something I can’t pretend I fully understand [25/8/23, 4:44:04 am] Oli: I say that in all seriousness. [25/8/23, 4:44:15 am] Oli: One gets used to having one’s own way and compromise is hard for some. [25/8/23, 4:44:59 am] Sam: I did jokingly say to him a few times that e.g. “this hoover might be good, but I’m sure you can find a more expensive or difficult one if you really look hard!” [25/8/23, 4:45:17 am] Oli: With a best before or use by date! [25/8/23, 4:45:22 am] Oli: Creeps up! [25/8/23, 4:45:30 am] Sam: The creation of problems to obscure the reality that behind all the problems is not happiness but the same boredom and emptiness [25/8/23, 4:45:55 am] Sam: And has I think long since crept up [25/8/23, 4:46:15 am] Sam: And I think he knows that by now his only plan is to dance until the music stops [25/8/23, 4:46:41 am] Sam: And Brunnhilde is singing [25/8/23, 4:46:42 am] Oli: HIV money and drinking [25/8/23, 4:46:50 am] Oli: Normal London problems [25/8/23, 4:46:52 am] Oli: Bloody hell [25/8/23, 4:46:55 am] Oli: Makes one grateful [25/8/23, 4:47:02 am] Oli: Small mercies [25/8/23, 4:47:15 am] Oli: Yes probably sad [25/8/23, 4:47:32 am] Oli: Yes I have often wondered what will happen. [25/8/23, 4:48:00 am] Oli: But never able to ask/discuss because these people find ways of changing track and moving on with something else. [25/8/23, 4:48:04 am] Sam: HIV = odd remarks made, slight suspicion that he knows he has it but can’t quite say Money = won’t get into this since I think it’s more damaging to Damien than anything else, and I just wince at the thought that it might get back to him, not for the sake of our friendship (what remains of it) but sincerely for his sake Drinking = self-explanatory [25/8/23, 4:48:20 am] Sam: I think his plan is to find a Tim Mk II [25/8/23, 4:48:24 am] Sam: Tim Redux [25/8/23, 4:48:44 am] Sam: That plan has been in motion since Paddington and is not bearing fruit [25/8/23, 4:48:47 am] Oli: No need to explain anything haha re that, the money thing, as it happens to lots of people easier than we’d think [25/8/23, 4:49:08 am] Sam: Actually tbh what I said probably gives a worse impression than just saying it [25/8/23, 4:49:23 am] Oli: Well wouldn’t be surprised re the first given the revolving door way of life these people seem to have [25/8/23, 4:49:28 am] Oli: A shame really [25/8/23, 4:49:54 am] Sam: Money = clearly he doesn’t have _no_ money, but Tim is quite selective in what he spends money on / sends money for, leading to a weirdly incongruous mix of genuinely extravagant spending on certain things but then not seeming to have money for food etc [25/8/23, 4:50:03 am] Oli: I saw Alex Camm few days ago and he alluded to things etc. which surprised me. [25/8/23, 4:50:14 am] Sam: Yeah Alex has soured on him [25/8/23, 4:50:29 am] Sam: Having always been ambivalent and occasionally harsh he’s now divorced altogether [25/8/23, 4:50:28 am] Oli: Not surprised really but just disappointed I’d say [25/8/23, 4:51:18 am] Sam: It’s a hard one - that guy Anthony (from the texts about Brendan) was very compassionate about Damien (much to his credit) and it’s tempered my attitude slightly [25/8/23, 4:51:39 am] Oli: Always disapprove of boozers. [25/8/23, 4:51:42 am] Oli: Not sure why [25/8/23, 4:52:04 am] Oli: Usually [25/8/23, 4:52:56 am] Sam: My best take is: insecure narcissism with now-and-then genuine compassion and heroism but also with really shitty behaviour towards those who inflict narcissistic wounds (literally even the cat, whom he perceives as unfriendly, which is utterly absurd when you try to think about it like a normal person) [25/8/23, 4:54:05 am] Oli: The cat! [25/8/23, 4:54:08 am] Sam: Sorry, not shitty behaviour towards the cats, he’s never mistreated the cats (I’m aware that that’s one of his favourite made-up stories about me), but I’m still amazed at his unreflective pique (cattiness?) about a bloody cat, just for being a bit aloof towards him, lol [25/8/23, 4:54:40 am] Sam: Narcissism - in the psychiatric rather than the colloquial sense - is maybe the main theme [25/8/23, 4:54:41 am] Oli: I think he had that attitude in Paddington about a cat once actually [25/8/23, 4:54:56 am] Sam: And of course in the Freudian context narcissism is a tendency we all have, and which is healthy in small doses [25/8/23, 4:55:09 am] Sam: I leave the toxicological analysis as an exercise for the reader ‎ [25/8/23, 4:55:41 am] Sam: This I don’t recall but it’s very possible he’d developed that attitude already by then [25/8/23, 4:55:43 am] Oli: I always thought it sweet that he had a teddy bear and that it betrayed some child memory/life somewhere frozen in time and I tried to compare my idea of it to what he was doing now and wondered was he OK! [25/8/23, 4:55:58 am] Sam: Rosebud! [25/8/23, 4:56:14 am] Oli: Very odd these people and their lifestyles. One gets very confused! [25/8/23, 4:56:21 am] Sam: This sort of thing makes me sad [25/8/23, 4:57:28 am] Oli: Tragicomedy! [25/8/23, 4:57:38 am] Oli: Yes [25/8/23, 4:57:49 am] Oli: Any form of psychological self-control [25/8/23, 4:57:56 am] Oli: If that’s the right description [25/8/23, 4:58:43 am] Oli: The nice innocent human contrasted with the present [25/8/23, 4:58:50 am] Oli: And thinking about the change [25/8/23, 4:59:07 am] Oli: Maybe that’s just developing in life but always something to think about. How someone develops [25/8/23, 4:59:09 am] Sam: How do you mean? You mean self-suppression? [25/8/23, 4:59:21 am] Oli: Ah yes this is a good way of describing it [25/8/23, 4:59:40 am] Sam: Yeah, I know it’s just another metaphor, the ‘inner child stuck inside’, but I feel like it figures some general truth [25/8/23, 4:59:48 am] Oli: Bowing down to some weird needs which deviate one from natural trajectory [25/8/23, 4:59:54 am] Oli: Whatever natural is here [25/8/23, 5:00:05 am] Sam: It always makes me sad when it takes the form of false consciousness [25/8/23, 5:00:16 am] Sam: Like, I told you the story about Divy and the shoe shop, right? [25/8/23, 5:00:43 am] Sam: I feel a kind of anger on his behalf that he has to just make nice about that, not stand up for himself, not take him to task [25/8/23, 5:00:43 am] Oli: Not sure! [25/8/23, 5:01:53 am] Sam: That he’d worked in a shoe shop and Divy had come in with a gaggle of friends (not me), and had taken offence at how Damien had supposedly looked at him, and had gone on a tirade about “how dare you look at me like that” and “I could buy this whole shop” etc [25/8/23, 5:02:32 am] Sam: And however equanimously Damien presents it, that has to leave a scar [25/8/23, 5:02:36 am] Oli: Not sure I do know this one! [25/8/23, 5:02:38 am] Oli: Goodness [25/8/23, 5:03:26 am] Sam: And then I introduced him to Divy years later and now they’re fast friends, which I’m generally very happy about, but then he told me this story quite recently and I was quite horrified that he hasn’t told Divy (who as far as I know doesn’t remember it) [25/8/23, 5:04:06 am] Sam: And stuff like this, relatedly: ‎[25/8/23, 5:04:13 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[25/8/23, 5:04:13 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 5:04:23 am] Sam: Which gives me a fairly good idea of why he hasn’t mentioned it [25/8/23, 5:04:27 am] Oli: Oh yes you sent those! [25/8/23, 5:04:45 am] Sam: Yeah those were a major cringe moment [25/8/23, 5:04:59 am] Sam: Not in a mocking way but in a genuine … eugh I don’t even know how to describe it [25/8/23, 5:05:46 am] Oli: Yes there’s usually only one ending to those lifestyles unless people have a realisation and make something right! [25/8/23, 5:05:47 am] Sam: Like Widmerpool and the banana (I know I’ve made this analogy a million times but he evokes so well that kinda “indignity so abject that it’s just sad and deflating” mindstate) [25/8/23, 5:06:11 am] Sam: And that hasn’t really happened, and to be fair to him it’s unclear how it really could have [25/8/23, 5:07:14 am] Sam: He complains that Tim not marrying him was the turning point, but to be frank I’m not sure it would have been - Tim already has one ex-husband, and he’d have been shrewd in his prenup, and anyway he’s a proletarian like me, his value is not so much in his accumulated wealth as in his continued ability to earn lots of money with the contents of his brain [25/8/23, 5:07:36 am] Sam: (Tim obviously is far more successful in that respect than I am, but it’s analogous at least) [25/8/23, 5:08:00 am] Sam: (Tim is also a lovely man whom I very much like, in case you construe any of this as criticism or mockery) [25/8/23, 5:08:12 am] Sam: (That was Damien’s mistake) [25/8/23, 5:08:42 am] Sam: Anyway I’m not trying to get at Damien [25/8/23, 5:09:01 am] Oli: Ah no I agree with the point [25/8/23, 5:09:04 am] Oli: Never met Tim [25/8/23, 5:09:20 am] Sam: We’re all ridiculous, and there’s good in him, and in many instances he really stepped up to the wicket for me, and it would be rotten to say he’s all bad [25/8/23, 5:09:28 am] Oli: Well I infer things from what I sometimes see and feel sorry/concerned at times! [25/8/23, 5:09:37 am] Oli: But never know what to do. Nothing I can really. [25/8/23, 5:10:09 am] Oli: Odd careers made on marriage. Scary idea [25/8/23, 5:10:12 am] Sam: Put it this way: I don’t think he’s a worse person or a worse failure than I am, but he’s far more intensely concerned about appearing to be, and far more willing to be dishonest about it due to that concern [25/8/23, 5:10:32 am] Sam: And I think that’s, again, not a sin, but is leading him into a kind of dissociation from reality [25/8/23, 5:10:46 am] Oli: Slapism maybe! [25/8/23, 5:10:47 am] Oli: I wonder [25/8/23, 5:11:01 am] Sam: Slapism in essence [25/8/23, 5:11:08 am] Sam: The mens rea is exactly the same [25/8/23, 5:11:22 am] Sam: Damien, unlike Slape, has lived that life [25/8/23, 5:11:28 am] Sam: And is having a harder time letting go [25/8/23, 5:11:37 am] Sam: Because there’s actually something for him to let go of [25/8/23, 5:12:10 am] Sam: And I think this explains a lot of the queenish behaviour and insistence on trying to live like Mary Antoinette with an Amex [25/8/23, 5:12:21 am] Sam: Marie dammit [25/8/23, 5:12:33 am] Sam: Would blame autocorrect but that one was just my brain glitching [25/8/23, 5:13:59 am] Oli: A web we weave! [25/8/23, 5:14:06 am] Sam: I also heard him give his year of birth on the phone the other day as ‘84, which I must have misheard and I don’t quite think it can be true because I’m pretty damn sure he was the year below me at (his different) university, and I remember him from back then, and it seems way beyond a plausible exaggeration that he could have been as old as that would make him [25/8/23, 5:14:15 am] Sam: Yet I swear that’s what he said [25/8/23, 5:14:17 am] Oli: Yes I thought he was 28 [25/8/23, 5:14:20 am] Sam: Fuck knows any more [25/8/23, 5:14:22 am] Oli: I saw his licence once. [25/8/23, 5:14:34 am] Oli: Which was 94/95 [25/8/23, 5:14:40 am] Oli: Must be his accent [25/8/23, 5:14:41 am] Oli: Maybe 29 [25/8/23, 5:15:06 am] Sam: That’s what would follow roughly from the university thing, since I’m 27 - that’s about the youngest he could be, at least, the terminus ante quem [25/8/23, 5:15:20 am] Oli: Yes I think he’s 28 or 29 [25/8/23, 5:15:24 am] Sam: Maybe it was his accent, or a brain glitch on his part [25/8/23, 5:15:57 am] Sam: Yeah that would make him about 38, which …. would be a slightly creepy level of misrepresentation, and just does not ring true really [25/8/23, 5:16:27 am] Sam: He’d then have been, well, my own current age when I met him, which I’m pretty sure he wasn’t because he looked 18-20 and acted very much like an 18-20 year old twink [25/8/23, 5:16:34 am] Sam: Ok yeah imma write that one off [25/8/23, 5:17:03 am] Sam: It would play merry hell with my narrative about him if it were true [25/8/23, 5:17:31 am] Sam: (“Young naïve 28-year-old twink becomes 38-year-old … etc etc”) [25/8/23, 5:17:53 am] Sam: Anyway yeah [25/8/23, 5:18:05 am] Oli: Sounds like Slape! [25/8/23, 5:18:13 am] Sam: I think that text really fucked with his head, at least as Alex tells it, and I feel bad about that [25/8/23, 5:18:17 am] Oli: Not sure how old Slape is there’s a claim He’s 34? [25/8/23, 5:18:21 am] Oli: Thought Slape was 28 too [25/8/23, 5:18:41 am] Sam: I wasn’t trying to be nasty - I admit to a degree of frustration and a feeling of “ok let’s just drop all the bullshit” etc, like with Slape [25/8/23, 5:18:43 am] Oli: Oh I didn’t realise! [25/8/23, 5:18:50 am] Oli: Ah so Alex knows [25/8/23, 5:19:02 am] Sam: Oh fuck knows - somewhere between nought and the age of the earth, probably [25/8/23, 5:19:22 am] Sam: Alex was with him that night [25/8/23, 5:19:26 am] Sam: Not sure how much you’ve heard [25/8/23, 5:19:35 am] Oli: Alex just saying he’s a liar etc [25/8/23, 5:19:39 am] Sam: He then came in and shouted drunkenly at me for four or five hours, lol [25/8/23, 5:19:54 am] Sam: Which I was fairly philosophical about [25/8/23, 5:20:47 am] Oli: He was quite put out by him I think [25/8/23, 5:20:53 am] Oli: Sad [25/8/23, 5:20:59 am] Oli: Sounds awful [25/8/23, 5:21:07 am] Oli: Housewarming LOL [25/8/23, 5:21:17 am] Oli: Wonder when the next one is… [25/8/23, 5:23:11 am] Oli: Sometimes it needs to happen. ‎[25/8/23, 5:23:34 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[25/8/23, 5:23:35 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[25/8/23, 5:23:36 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[25/8/23, 5:23:36 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 5:24:08 am] Sam: Not a selection that’s aimed at presenting me well or Damien badly, just giving a sense (since Alex was the sort of neutral channel at the time) [25/8/23, 5:24:43 am] Sam: For a long time - I struggle to judge him (like yoh and Slapw) [25/8/23, 5:25:33 am] Oli: Paedophile 🤣🤣🤣 [25/8/23, 5:25:51 am] Oli: Yes it sounds like quite the atmosphere [25/8/23, 5:26:33 am] Oli: Must’ve been nice to have that going on whilst trying to relax. [25/8/23, 5:26:42 am] Oli: My god. Behind every closed door… [25/8/23, 5:27:34 am] Oli: Text shout! [25/8/23, 5:27:41 am] Oli: So he and Damien were shouting. [25/8/23, 5:27:46 am] Oli: Booking in a shouting match. [25/8/23, 5:27:55 am] Oli: What lives people have! [25/8/23, 5:28:13 am] Sam: For the neighbour, you mean? Or me? Haha, I pretty much booked out that night when I sent that text! (I didn’t quite anticipate the extent of the hurt, I was more anticipating a regular shouting match, but I knew I wasn’t gonna make any progress with Proust!) [25/8/23, 5:28:16 am] Oli: Lucky to be spared that to an extent. [25/8/23, 5:28:29 am] Oli: Well you but I suppose both! [25/8/23, 5:29:13 am] Sam: No, Damien was shouting at me / in my general direction, haha. Alex was neutral / sorta cool on me in light of some stuff I’d said which Damien had repeated to him (about my slight frustration with him being around at times, for which see screenshot #2). [25/8/23, 5:29:43 am] Oli: Oh so he was shouting at you outside your room. [25/8/23, 5:29:53 am] Oli: Knowing he can’t go in there so not going in but still shouting? [25/8/23, 5:29:56 am] Oli: Sounds like a clown show [25/8/23, 5:29:59 am] Sam: Haha, yes, sorta [25/8/23, 5:29:58 am] Oli: 🤡 [25/8/23, 5:30:23 am] Oli: With Alex the policeman observing [25/8/23, 5:30:26 am] Sam: And also just shouting to nobody / notionally to Alex but as a performance for my benefit [25/8/23, 5:30:33 am] Oli: Lol what mayhem [25/8/23, 5:30:46 am] Sam: And I think occasionally actually shouting things to the neighbour [25/8/23, 5:31:24 am] Sam: Or maybe it was stuff to the effect of “if only people knew that [this, that, meth, paedophile, etc etc]” [25/8/23, 5:31:46 am] Oli: Hardly crime of the century! [25/8/23, 5:32:12 am] Oli: A soap opera flat! ‎[25/8/23, 5:32:35 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 5:32:45 am] Oli: Smoking meth! You’ll be strung up if only people knew [25/8/23, 5:32:55 am] Sam: Paedophilia is fairly frowned upon nowadays tbf [25/8/23, 5:33:01 am] Oli: Oh god that’s horrible to have. He is going through a lot I suppose! [25/8/23, 5:33:06 am] Sam: This is more of an interesting one, yeah [25/8/23, 5:33:21 am] Oli: Well ha yes but it’s not as though you’re a paid up member. [25/8/23, 5:33:35 am] Sam: And I think reflects his own shame about drug use which is not something I really feel (for partly cultural and partly personality-related reasons) [25/8/23, 5:33:36 am] Oli: Maybe you are [25/8/23, 5:33:46 am] Sam: And also religious reasons which I suspect are a big factor [25/8/23, 5:33:56 am] Oli: Oh god actually I read a novel with pederast undertones year or so ago [25/8/23, 5:34:02 am] Oli: Enjoyed it and liked the principles [25/8/23, 5:34:07 am] Oli: And the reviews were awful! [25/8/23, 5:34:15 am] Oli: Ancient Greece etc [25/8/23, 5:34:16 am] Sam: Nah I’m not, and I always hasten to clarify that I’m emphatically not a paedophile in the proper sense (ie prepubescent kids, actual kids) [25/8/23, 5:34:35 am] Sam: I think the technical term is ephebophile [25/8/23, 5:34:43 am] Sam: But that doesn’t quite feel like calling a spade a spade [25/8/23, 5:34:49 am] Oli: Yes that sounds right I remember Alex saying something about that [25/8/23, 5:34:51 am] Sam: Which is my preferred appellation when it comes to spades [25/8/23, 5:34:56 am] Oli: But it’s not as though he’s abstinent! [25/8/23, 5:35:07 am] Oli: So that’s an odd one but lots in that camp. [25/8/23, 5:35:33 am] Sam: Oh, no, he does them as much as I do (though in all honesty for several reasons I’d probably agree I have a worse habit, even though my literal volume of use is not as great) ‎[25/8/23, 5:36:08 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 5:36:17 am] Sam: Attenuation goddammit [25/8/23, 5:36:20 am] Sam: Attenuation [25/8/23, 5:36:23 am] Sam: Attestation [25/8/23, 5:36:28 am] Oli: Haha just read [25/8/23, 5:36:33 am] Sam: Oh shit sorry [25/8/23, 5:36:36 am] Sam: Totally wrong message [25/8/23, 5:36:43 am] Sam: I really need to actually read things and not just glance [25/8/23, 5:36:44 am] Sam: One sec ‎[25/8/23, 5:37:37 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 5:38:37 am] Oli: Yes! Alex told me Damien doesn’t like to buy as then he thinks he’d be an addict [25/8/23, 5:39:08 am] Oli: £150 every 2 weeks. [25/8/23, 5:39:10 am] Oli: Good idea [25/8/23, 5:39:12 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [25/8/23, 5:39:24 am] Oli: Bloody coke seems to be expensive [25/8/23, 5:39:28 am] Oli: Mayhem [25/8/23, 5:39:32 am] Sam: Yeah he also doesn’t like to buy as it costs a lot of money, lol [25/8/23, 5:39:52 am] Oli: You can’t go to or have a party anymore without spending £400 or so to sit and talk gibberish [25/8/23, 5:40:02 am] Sam: And I meant £100-150 every couple of weeks from their (mostly his) use specifically [25/8/23, 5:40:05 am] Oli: Not sure when this became a thing. But it seems more rife now [25/8/23, 5:40:10 am] Oli: Oh right! Haha [25/8/23, 5:40:26 am] Sam: So you can imagine what it adds up to [25/8/23, 5:40:58 am] Sam: Probably he’s partly telling the truth about kidding himself that he’s not an addict if he doesn’t buy, but … well, like I said there, it was also a rather convenient system for him, haha [25/8/23, 5:41:13 am] Sam: 1981 [25/8/23, 5:41:33 am] Sam: Oh this - nah this I don’t know, I’ve not taken coke in ages [25/8/23, 5:42:18 am] Oli: Personal wax seal [25/8/23, 5:42:26 am] Oli: Wax sealed envelope with meth [25/8/23, 5:42:29 am] Oli: This is brilliant [25/8/23, 5:42:32 am] Oli: I have one [25/8/23, 5:42:39 am] Oli: Should make an envelope [25/8/23, 5:42:40 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [25/8/23, 5:42:54 am] Oli: I agree with your sentiment here but also find it hilarious [25/8/23, 5:43:04 am] Oli: I find the whole idea of drug use Ilarious coke to Think of it [25/8/23, 5:43:13 am] Oli: Hilarious come to think of it* [25/8/23, 5:43:22 am] Oli: But mostly thinking about coke. [25/8/23, 5:43:25 am] Sam: Yeah I find it all bizarre [25/8/23, 5:43:28 am] Sam: Utterly bizarre [25/8/23, 5:43:34 am] Oli: How people happily spend hundreds of quid and sit around a sofa for hours [25/8/23, 5:43:38 am] Oli: Very funny [25/8/23, 5:43:47 am] Oli: I do it every weekend now with the same nutters [25/8/23, 5:43:50 am] Oli: Absolute madness [25/8/23, 5:44:10 am] Oli: What I find even odder is how most know it’s ridiculous yet carry on [25/8/23, 5:44:36 am] Sam: In hindsight I’m quite amazed at the ability to nudge and wheedle and sleight-of-hand quite so much money out of me, even while I was at least semi-aware that that was what was going on [25/8/23, 5:44:57 am] Sam: Drugs I don’t mind, but with coke talk it’s more the vapidity and unedifyingness that’s a problem [25/8/23, 5:45:08 am] Sam: And the fact that you don’t make any much more real bond through it [25/8/23, 5:45:32 am] Sam: (Same is equally true of meth of course - I’m just talking about coke because one would never sit in a group at a party all doing meth) [25/8/23, 5:45:49 am] Oli: Yes I suppose in hindsight this is a thought [25/8/23, 5:45:54 am] Sam: ((But stuff like eg weed or mushrooms or MDMA might be diff - and I think heroin is, to be fair to it)) [25/8/23, 5:45:55 am] Oli: I’ve had similar thoughts about things [25/8/23, 5:46:12 am] Oli: I have had OK chats with some to be fair but with most it’s a circle [25/8/23, 5:46:35 am] Oli: Wonder was it even consciously done [25/8/23, 5:46:50 am] Oli: Or just became the norm or it wasn’t even thought about [25/8/23, 5:47:38 am] Oli: You’d hope this. I’d like to think it’s this as it’s happened for me in the past, but surely an element of the first. Maybe it starts off as the latter and then when thought about (by whomever) strays into the former. ‎[25/8/23, 5:47:55 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[25/8/23, 5:47:55 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[25/8/23, 5:47:56 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[25/8/23, 5:47:56 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[25/8/23, 5:47:57 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[25/8/23, 5:47:57 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 5:48:10 am] Sam: Edward as always is such a sweet and kind man [25/8/23, 5:48:22 am] Oli: Goodness Hagger! [25/8/23, 5:48:24 am] Oli: Shall read! [25/8/23, 5:49:24 am] Oli: 29! Yes [25/8/23, 5:49:44 am] Oli: Nice man [25/8/23, 5:51:00 am] Sam: Very very good egg, Edward - I feel bad because based on broad demographic stereotypes one tends to assume he’ll be a creep, and he’s really not [25/8/23, 5:52:34 am] Oli: I see [25/8/23, 5:52:38 am] Oli: Cat plots [25/8/23, 5:52:40 am] Oli: Goodness [25/8/23, 5:52:46 am] Sam: He seems to be near enough asexual, or at least aromantic (to use the jargon), but he’s also a romantic and I think he has a very pure, chaste, innocent love and admiration for Damien which I find very sweet slmehow [25/8/23, 5:52:53 am] Oli: Yes he’s the opposite of a creep! A kind man. [25/8/23, 5:53:34 am] Oli: Scary [25/8/23, 5:53:36 am] Sam: Yeah I really just meant specifically the bit about correctly predicting exactly what was going to happen and yet still being caught up in it [25/8/23, 5:54:07 am] Sam: Absolutely! I love those moments where one’s pleasantly surprised by someone. I live for that! [25/8/23, 5:54:20 am] Sam: Anyway this Damien stuff is probably bringing out my worst instincts [25/8/23, 5:54:29 am] Sam: Like I say, he was a saint to Martin. People are complex! [25/8/23, 5:54:46 am] Oli: Can’t understand it but it’s happened to me too before. Not with Damien [25/8/23, 5:55:04 am] Oli: I don’t really know Damien that well it transpired to me and what Alex said etc how he behaves [25/8/23, 5:55:17 am] Sam: Really really I was quite blown away, because it was _not_ easy work - he went to fucking Stansted and Heathrow about five or six times in 2-3 days with Martin before successfully getting him on a plane [25/8/23, 5:55:23 am] Oli: Sort of had a very acquaintance/formal like friendship for around 10 years now [25/8/23, 5:55:40 am] Sam: And to the Bulgarian embassy, and the Royal London (successfully avoiding Slape), etc [25/8/23, 5:55:54 am] Oli: I didn’t know Martin was this complicated [25/8/23, 5:55:58 am] Sam: Wait I can’t quite parse this [25/8/23, 5:56:05 am] Oli: He struck me as a normal Eastern European pouf on the make [25/8/23, 5:56:21 am] Sam: He was actually a lovely guy the last time I met him, in 2019 [25/8/23, 5:56:23 am] Oli: Oh Alex just said that Damien essentially full of white lies/pretences etc [25/8/23, 5:56:31 am] Oli: And most of it is a charade [25/8/23, 5:56:35 am] Sam: Apparently he stopped taking his schizophrenia meds shortly before his first stay at Bond St [25/8/23, 5:56:50 am] Oli: Which I knew but enjoyed as I say he was never an intimate friend as such [25/8/23, 5:56:56 am] Sam: During his first stay I just thought he’d become a bit dull and venal and shallow, and I was disappointed [25/8/23, 5:57:19 am] Oli: But over recent years got to know him a bit more and spoke more with him. Though actually thinking about it he never shares anything much about his life [25/8/23, 5:57:21 am] Sam: (Maybe he has, maybe it was early effects of coming off meds, maybe it was another effect of whatever crisis made him come off the meds, fuck knows) [25/8/23, 5:57:28 am] Oli: Presumably because he doesn’t want to think about it [25/8/23, 5:57:39 am] Sam: Second stay, a month later, he was clearly mentally ill and that’s the one that wound up in this drama [25/8/23, 5:57:51 am] Sam: This is true [25/8/23, 5:57:50 am] Oli: But still the way Alex presented it (so formally, like a court judgment) shocked me Haha [25/8/23, 5:57:55 am] Oli: Ok now to read your stuff 🤣 [25/8/23, 5:58:34 am] Oli: Goodness never even realised he was! [25/8/23, 5:58:38 am] Oli: He was a schizophrenic [25/8/23, 5:58:42 am] Oli: Or is [25/8/23, 5:58:57 am] Sam: Yeah, I think he’s a bit of a cipher. I notice he mirrors my personality more (eg compassion, irreverence, specific things like republicanism) in a way that doesn’t feel sincere or congruous with his usual self-presentation. [25/8/23, 5:59:57 am] Sam: Neither had we! Apparently his parents knew, and knew he’d come off his meds. His best friend girl had seen him in between the two visits and was very concerned and told him he shouldn’t get on a plane but should see a doctor urgently - but parents did fuck all, and she couldn’t very well handcuff him. 🤷 [25/8/23, 6:00:19 am] Sam: She seems to have been the one person looking out for him besides Damien [25/8/23, 6:00:41 am] Oli: Goodness he sounds a mess [25/8/23, 6:00:49 am] Oli: Good for Damien helping him [25/8/23, 6:01:14 am] Sam: And it’s hugely to Damien’s credit that he did all that. It was not nothing. It really wasn’t. I know it slightly clashes with some other stuff I’ve said, but fuck it, truth first and theories later! [25/8/23, 6:01:21 am] Sam: Snap [25/8/23, 6:01:52 am] Sam: But yeah this is also a thing that’s really struck me about Damien (again, not a sin really, just an oddity) [25/8/23, 6:02:10 am] Sam: Alex said something about you and he encountering a homeless person and something or other [25/8/23, 6:02:24 am] Sam: You and him! Goddammit! I slaped! [25/8/23, 6:02:53 am] Sam: Anyway Alex did say that you were perfectly nice to this homeless person but he said that the same couldn’t be said for Damien [25/8/23, 6:03:02 am] Sam: I said I didn’t want to hear the rest (and I still don’t!) [25/8/23, 6:03:07 am] Oli: Goodness! Wonder when that was [25/8/23, 6:03:11 am] Oli: Probably happened a few times [25/8/23, 6:03:28 am] Sam: I’d sooner not have this affect my view of Damien, and it would [25/8/23, 6:03:32 am] Sam: Yeah I can imagine [25/8/23, 6:04:05 am] Oli: Must be an insecurity? [25/8/23, 6:04:10 am] Oli: Timidity? [25/8/23, 6:04:11 am] Sam: But yeah suffice it to say it rang false when he kept echoing my various Enragé views [25/8/23, 6:04:31 am] Oli: It’s sad I feel sorry for him. [25/8/23, 6:04:54 am] Sam: I think so - desire to please, and maybe a slight adulation of me (Alex mildly disagreed/questioned this but I can’t get over my persistent sense that there was an aspect of that with me in particular) [25/8/23, 6:05:01 am] Oli: But never sure what to do. I’m not really involved in this ‘drama’ per se and only see it on a surface level basis but still coming to think of it it is sad [25/8/23, 6:05:06 am] Sam: Not to say me alone, but more than was usual for him at least [25/8/23, 6:05:16 am] Oli: Come to think of it [25/8/23, 6:05:27 am] Oli: I thought that too [25/8/23, 6:05:29 am] Oli: In some funny way [25/8/23, 6:05:35 am] Oli: Couldn’t quite articulate it! [25/8/23, 6:05:46 am] Sam: Oh, nothing! I’m not appealing for supporters in some teenage fight, haha. Please do be friends with Damien and I’d hate for this to affect that - and anyway I’m friends with Damien myself and am on perfectly good terms! [25/8/23, 6:06:06 am] Oli: Oh yes nothing to worry about there. [25/8/23, 6:06:16 am] Sam: Maybe I shouldn’t say all this stuff - probably it’s a bit shitty. I try to make it my rule that I never say anything behind someone’s back that I wouldn’t say to their face. I’m slightly violating it here. [25/8/23, 6:06:36 am] Oli: But it is still upsetting to learn there’s yet another episode of conflicting lives [25/8/23, 6:06:46 am] Oli: But that is what happens! [25/8/23, 6:07:00 am] Oli: Well you’re not saying anything bad. [25/8/23, 6:07:12 am] Sam: Or maybe not. It’s always been a corollary that it’s ok to say stuff that’s hurtful, but the rule is that _if they absolutely insisted on hearing it_ then I wouldn’t be ashamed/embarrassed. In other words that I’ll be honest. In all honesty actually I think I am being. [25/8/23, 6:07:30 am] Sam: But yeah I wouldn’t want to give the sense that this is all there is to him [25/8/23, 6:07:37 am] Sam: I think nobody can be written off in a sentence [25/8/23, 6:07:54 am] Sam: Everyone is complicated and no one is beyond redemption [25/8/23, 6:08:02 am] Sam: Even people from Essex [25/8/23, 6:08:24 am] Sam: As many as there are lives [25/8/23, 6:08:25 am] Oli: Though you are right about the lifestyle [25/8/23, 6:08:30 am] Sam: As many as the factorial of the number of lives [25/8/23, 6:08:30 am] Oli: And it is sad [25/8/23, 6:08:46 am] Sam: Yup, I am [25/8/23, 6:08:46 am] Oli: People make their fates [25/8/23, 6:08:55 am] Sam: It’s sad [25/8/23, 6:08:56 am] Oli: If lucky enough [25/8/23, 6:09:14 am] Oli: Many books in that [25/8/23, 6:09:36 am] Sam: He’s not stupid, he knows it himself, but it’s one thing to intellectually know it and it’s another to live as if it’s true [25/8/23, 6:10:10 am] Sam: And this one is atropos [25/8/23, 6:10:38 am] Sam: Seldom! [25/8/23, 6:11:03 am] Sam: And fates make their people! [25/8/23, 6:11:05 am] Oli: Yes hence why it’s sadder here [25/8/23, 6:11:24 am] Oli: As opportunities presented and ways of making something permanent out of the life he’s been given by luck [25/8/23, 6:11:48 am] Oli: Though maybe, surely, he was forced/led into this way of life by some cultural aspect [25/8/23, 6:11:55 am] Sam: To be fair, and to be dull and serious and boringly nuanced about it, I’m not quite sure he really could have spun much out of it [25/8/23, 6:12:04 am] Oli: Could’ve saved up the 15k a month [25/8/23, 6:12:06 am] Sam: He could probably have bettered his chances at a marginally better outcome [25/8/23, 6:12:11 am] Oli: Even when it was reduced to 10 [25/8/23, 6:12:15 am] Oli: And invested that for a start [25/8/23, 6:12:24 am] Sam: Refusing to move to New York with Tim was a bizarre and unaffordable act of self-assertion [25/8/23, 6:12:44 am] Sam: I think it was “15k or equivalent” so to speak [25/8/23, 6:12:54 am] Sam: Tim spent that much on him but didn’t give that much to him in cash [25/8/23, 6:12:54 am] Oli: And ingratiates with some contacts he’d have met and wangled a job somehow [25/8/23, 6:13:04 am] Oli: Oh I thought it was an allowance [25/8/23, 6:13:08 am] Oli: I see haha makes more sense [25/8/23, 6:13:10 am] Sam: I’m probably responsible for perpetuating this misrepresentation - I only recently realised this [25/8/23, 6:13:27 am] Sam: Or not ‘realised’ really - was told, found out, etc [25/8/23, 6:13:37 am] Sam: Makes a lot more sense, yeah [25/8/23, 6:13:44 am] Sam: Explains the oddly schizoid affluence [25/8/23, 6:14:11 am] Sam: The definitely unmistakably spending lavishly on some things and then being bizarrely poor at other moments when it comes to other things [25/8/23, 6:14:18 am] Oli: He might’ve had a better time there! [25/8/23, 6:14:35 am] Oli: I noticed traces of that too [25/8/23, 6:14:36 am] Sam: He’d have been no more empty at least [25/8/23, 6:15:16 am] Sam: In a very real way it’s the old trope of being unhappy because your life and your values are so meretricious [25/8/23, 6:16:04 am] Oli: Yes! [25/8/23, 6:16:07 am] Sam: And the gods of the copybook headings _(ibid)_ said: the wages of sin is death [25/8/23, 6:16:20 am] Sam: Quoth Kipling [25/8/23, 6:16:35 am] Oli: Sad so many trapped into it [25/8/23, 6:16:43 am] Oli: Easier immediately than to change though [25/8/23, 6:16:46 am] Oli: Bad trap [25/8/23, 6:17:23 am] Oli: Saw the same with another friend at his birthday last Thurs [25/8/23, 6:17:46 am] Oli: Hedge fund manager on 300k a year (whatever that is after tax) who literally lives off loans and hand to mouth pot noodles [25/8/23, 6:18:00 am] Oli: As spends all wages on coke and renting extravagant flat and on prositutes [25/8/23, 6:18:09 am] Oli: Couldn’t believe it [25/8/23, 6:18:22 am] Oli: The birthday felt like a funeral in a way too. [25/8/23, 6:18:44 am] Oli: Corrupted himself. Skewed morals. Messed. Trapped in a cul-de-sac. [25/8/23, 6:18:47 am] Oli: Very scary to see! [25/8/23, 6:19:05 am] Sam: Will be 150-200 [25/8/23, 6:19:05 am] Oli: And repaying loans 🤣🤣🤣 [25/8/23, 6:19:12 am] Oli: Madness [25/8/23, 6:19:30 am] Oli: You hear about people without money genuinely [25/8/23, 6:19:33 am] Oli: And the. See this [25/8/23, 6:19:51 am] Oli: I watched him getting a maths teacher friend to bank transfer him £16 for an Uber [25/8/23, 6:19:57 am] Oli: As he was ‘broke’ [25/8/23, 6:20:00 am] Oli: Utter madness! [25/8/23, 6:20:07 am] Sam: Not James Saunders is it? That sounds peculiarly similar tho I think he earned a bit more (and has recently cofounded a company - idk how eminent he is in his field, but from a startup background it blew my mind that he had four years of runway (ie money to cover costs) with about 70 employees iirc). [25/8/23, 6:20:27 am] Oli: No but someone who should know him as Oxon same time and DPhil Physics [25/8/23, 6:20:32 am] Oli: Oh god you met this man [25/8/23, 6:20:38 am] Oli: He was at the Bruton place party [25/8/23, 6:20:39 am] Sam: From his investors I mean - not from revenue made [25/8/23, 6:20:44 am] Oli: Ingleby’s friend [25/8/23, 6:20:45 am] Oli: Haha [25/8/23, 6:20:56 am] Sam: Hmm, I don’t quite recall any Ingleby friend [25/8/23, 6:21:01 am] Sam: Did he have any qualities? [25/8/23, 6:21:10 am] Oli: The shortish blondish man [25/8/23, 6:21:19 am] Oli: Oriel Oxford [25/8/23, 6:21:23 am] Oli: Maybe you didn’t speak about it not sure [25/8/23, 6:21:30 am] Sam: Not a distinguishing feature at that sorta party [25/8/23, 6:21:33 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [25/8/23, 6:21:45 am] Oli: He was just blabbering on about gibberish [25/8/23, 6:21:53 am] Sam: A lot of short, squat, rubicund people from little petty Tory colleges like Oriel and Hertford and (venturing) Peterhouse etc [25/8/23, 6:22:04 am] Sam: Nor that [25/8/23, 6:22:22 am] Sam: Also yes [25/8/23, 6:22:28 am] Oli: Anyway no reason for you to remember him [25/8/23, 6:22:32 am] Oli: Precisely this haha [25/8/23, 6:22:57 am] Sam: The hollow men [25/8/23, 6:23:01 am] Oli: We call him WONGA Johnny [25/8/23, 6:23:08 am] Oli: Terrible really but nothing else to say about it [25/8/23, 6:23:10 am] Oli: It’s bewildering ‎[25/8/23, 6:23:53 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [25/8/23, 6:24:30 am] Sam: Oh god he’s not related to Wonga is he? The company? When they collapsed we gave serious thought to hiring a joblot of their sw engineers (as is quite common in tech: company goes bust and a few other companies will step in to rescue their employees), but eventually decided that they were too morally tainted by having worked at such a place, or even decided to work there. [25/8/23, 6:24:41 am] Sam: Oh no his face rings a bell [25/8/23, 6:24:45 am] Oli: Hah no but lives off similar loans [25/8/23, 6:24:58 am] Oli: After spending his salary on repaying previous handouts [25/8/23, 6:25:02 am] Oli: And the remnants on coke [25/8/23, 6:25:05 am] Oli: And rent boys [25/8/23, 6:25:09 am] Oli: Very scary [25/8/23, 6:25:16 am] Oli: I’ve never come across anything quite so like it [25/8/23, 6:25:32 am] Oli: At first I just thought he was a rich man clever with money not spending it [25/8/23, 6:25:40 am] Oli: Little did I realise it was actually because he had none [25/8/23, 6:25:49 am] Oli: Really what a mad situation [25/8/23, 6:25:55 am] Oli: And you think the world is messed up [25/8/23, 6:25:58 am] Oli: That’s another case study! [25/8/23, 6:26:23 am] Oli: And people speculate if he’ll stay employed etc [25/8/23, 6:26:28 am] Sam: I think this is what happens when people are raised to think that they have utterly no reason to think of anyone but themselves - and it turns out (long spoons etc) that it’s very hard to help yourself. [25/8/23, 6:26:46 am] Sam: Not just utterly no reason, but in fact that they must not feed the pigeons etc [25/8/23, 6:26:49 am] Oli: Really don’t know how those things work but apparently it’s easier to do those things as such big companies with lots of money they’re used to losing [25/8/23, 6:27:00 am] Oli: Easier to coast rather [25/8/23, 6:27:01 am] Oli: Maybe wrong [25/8/23, 6:27:16 am] Sam: Yeah, I’ve heard stories of people whose companies simply forgot about them [25/8/23, 6:27:34 am] Sam: Manager leaves, teams reorganised, still on payroll, lost in office [25/8/23, 6:28:14 am] Sam: Bit like that couple whose tour boat accidentally left them stranded off the coast of Australia to be eaten by sharks [25/8/23, 6:28:22 am] Sam: “Oops” [25/8/23, 6:28:43 am] Sam: “Thought we had 12 people! Ha, funny that!” [25/8/23, 6:29:26 am] Oli: It’s insane really to comprehend! [25/8/23, 6:29:32 am] Oli: But yes haha [25/8/23, 6:30:24 am] Oli: But yes for whatever reason it gets people [25/8/23, 6:30:49 am] Oli: Etc [25/8/23, 6:31:11 am] Oli: 🌍 ‎[25/8/23, 6:42:54 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/8/23, 12:16:26 am] Sam: Also, I just processed your message 16 hours after reading it and suddenly thought: did you go for drinks with Alex or something? Is that a new thing? [26/8/23, 12:18:08 am] Sam: Makes me think: I wonder if we all ought to have some intervention with Damien. That’s a ridiculous thing to say, I know, and I’m not saying it because I think he’s ‘worse’ than I am or whatever, but because I think his problems seem quite easily solvable. (Like the rules of disaster triage: attend to those likeliest to survive, not - as you usually would - those likeliest to die.) [26/8/23, 12:18:17 am] Oli: Ah. Happened to be on WhatsApp already messaging haha. No he messaged one night when was at loose end and I happened to be with gay Exeter friends in King’s Cross so he came over. [26/8/23, 12:18:38 am] Oli: I was happy he reached out as like hearing from him and hitherto only met him through others. [26/8/23, 12:18:40 am] Sam: I admit I’m prone to thinking “surely so-and-so will figure it all out once I confront them with the reality”, whereas it hasn’t always turned out to be true, eg Slape. (And probably my ‘reality’, my mental model of his inner circuitry and what inputs will produce what outputs, is partly wrong, the same way even a shrewd observer would probably get me partly wrong (like the inevitable assumption that I must have been deeply traumatised by being raped, when really it barely occurs to me, a fact practically no one seems prepared to accept).) [26/8/23, 12:19:16 am] Oli: Interesting but I wonder how effective it will be. People like that are good at obfuscating and subterfuge. [26/8/23, 12:19:22 am] Oli: Avoiding the inevitable essentially [26/8/23, 12:19:27 am] Oli: It’s what most would do I suppose. [26/8/23, 12:19:45 am] Oli: 🙏 [26/8/23, 12:20:45 am] Sam: Yeah, I like Alex! He’s a good soul 👍 Damien is not entirely wrong about some of his criticisms, but we’re all ridiculous, at the end of the day (ah dammit it just struck midnight). I’m starting to believe in judging people by their best instincts and not their worst. [26/8/23, 12:22:49 am] Oli: Interesting re latter. Thank you for sharing. [26/8/23, 12:22:51 am] Sam: Perhaps it’s best. Perhaps it’s like the Columbia disaster, where the NASA workers on the ground knew that it was damaged and stood a good chance of burning up on reëntry, but reasoned that - quoting from memory - “what would you prefer, to die unexpectedly in a moment or to stay in orbit waiting until the air ran out?” [26/8/23, 12:23:08 am] Oli: I can understand and most find that cognitive problem very hard to register! [26/8/23, 12:23:20 am] Oli: Yes sort of unknown trauma [26/8/23, 12:23:37 am] Sam: Latter meaning what in particular? [26/8/23, 12:23:56 am] Sam: I mean I’m aware of the word ‘latter’, but unsure if you mean paragraph or clause or point (however construed) vel sim [26/8/23, 12:24:11 am] Oli: You being raped and particularly your attitude to it. Understanding maybe some innate attitudes as a result but not obvious [26/8/23, 12:26:13 am] Sam: Ah yeah. I prob haven’t mentioned just bc it seldom crosses my mind! I’m unsure why everyone expects it to be such a salient event. (I mean obv it’s usually upsetting but I’m a bit struck by how _utterly convinced_ almost everyone is that it must be a deeply repressed trauma, that it’s impossible that it just … might not have been that big a deal to me. Odd.) ‎[26/8/23, 12:26:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[26/8/23, 12:30:31 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [26/8/23, 12:30:53 am] Oli: Interesting I have the same view/experience [26/8/23, 12:31:03 am] Oli: People find it very hard to believe. They’re almost looking for it [26/8/23, 12:34:46 am] Sam: Memory was fairly accurate but updating with correct quotation: "If it has been damaged it's probably better not to know. I think the crew would rather not know. Don't you think it would be better for them to have a happy successful flight and die unexpectedly during entry than to stay on orbit, knowing that there was nothing to be done, until the air ran out?" (https://waynehale.wordpress.com/2013/01/13/after-ten-years-working-on-the-wrong-problem/) [26/8/23, 12:35:28 am] Sam: You mean he sent this to you?? With the watermark? Haha [26/8/23, 12:35:44 am] Oli: Is there a watermark? [26/8/23, 12:35:57 am] Oli: He wrote ‘home-bound’ I presume [26/8/23, 12:36:25 am] Sam: Ohhhh, right, sorry, that’s unusually small for one of those Instagram sticker things so I assumed it was a blog name [26/8/23, 12:36:48 am] Oli: But nonetheless I suspect someone else’s photograph given his track record [26/8/23, 12:36:56 am] Sam: I mean it’s ludicrous [26/8/23, 12:37:01 am] Sam: He’s visibly on the ground, for one [26/8/23, 12:37:35 am] Sam: And the monitor has the name of the plane on, which I assume is something that the manufacturer would do for a glamour shot but anyone actually using it would have the map on the screen [26/8/23, 12:37:52 am] Sam: Even when on the ground ime (in my not-very-much experience, granted, but still) [26/8/23, 12:38:23 am] Sam: Also very unusual to take one’s family’s plane (which is what he’s presumably claiming it to be) [26/8/23, 12:38:54 am] Oli: Yes it didn’t seem typical of a hired/private jet [26/8/23, 12:39:03 am] Sam: It’s a huge logistical pain to move the things to the airport you want to be collected from - pilots are hard to get, fuel costs an arm and a leg and a few more appendages [26/8/23, 12:39:22 am] Oli: He can nose dive and barrel roll though? [26/8/23, 12:39:30 am] Sam: Most people I know (Divy, Phil, Izzy, Reid, etc) fly commercial when making their own little trips here and there [26/8/23, 12:39:51 am] Sam: And parents’ planes only for family holidays (and parents’ business) [26/8/23, 12:40:18 am] Sam: Nobody, but nobody, is spending $100k or thereabouts for their kid to make a quick trip back from Europe [26/8/23, 12:40:30 am] Sam: Actually where the hell is he claiming to be flying back from? [26/8/23, 12:40:47 am] Sam: Well maybe he can pilot the bloody thing and save some moolah! [26/8/23, 12:40:50 am] Oli: Esp if punishment [26/8/23, 12:40:56 am] Oli: Arizona he said he was in [26/8/23, 12:41:05 am] Oli: So I presume somewhere there but he hasn’t articulated [26/8/23, 12:41:14 am] Sam: Bollocks a plane that small has that range [26/8/23, 12:41:21 am] Sam: Looks like a midsize business jet [26/8/23, 12:41:33 am] Oli: Actually bloody good point [26/8/23, 12:41:37 am] Sam: This is one thing I actually know something about, on account of my nouveau friends [26/8/23, 12:41:43 am] Oli: He’ll claim he had in air refuelling [26/8/23, 12:41:47 am] Oli: Military esque [26/8/23, 12:41:50 am] Sam: That’s why Gulfstreams are so expensive [26/8/23, 12:42:08 am] Oli: Normal for a slape [26/8/23, 12:42:14 am] Oli: Yea this nailed it [26/8/23, 12:42:17 am] Sam: Let me check, but I very much doubt that plane (and possibly any Dassault business jet) is gonna be making a journey of that distance [26/8/23, 12:42:16 am] Oli: Caught him [26/8/23, 12:42:28 am] Sam: Hahahaha brilliant [26/8/23, 12:42:37 am] Sam: A Stratotanker just for him [26/8/23, 12:43:04 am] Oli: Yes! Well, he does like a bit of mystery. [26/8/23, 12:48:21 am] Oli: Sad really. It was tragicomic but not sure it is anymore. Just tragi [26/8/23, 12:49:20 am] Sam: It would be …. very much pushing it, but fully fuelled, lightly loaded, and with the wind on its side it could just about make it [26/8/23, 12:49:56 am] Sam: I consider it pretty unlikely that any pilot would risk it, and of course you have far less fuel efficiency just from carrying that much fuel for most of the time … but I’m not an expert [26/8/23, 12:50:20 am] Sam: It would give you very little room for manoeuvre if you needed to circle at the London end, or reroute, etc [26/8/23, 12:50:38 am] Sam: I suspect very possibly it would be against protocol to do something like that [26/8/23, 12:50:53 am] Sam: But sorry, not a slam dunk I’m afraid [26/8/23, 12:51:28 am] Sam: Same for the screen - clearly a bit absurd but nothing as decisive as yesterday’s photo ‎[26/8/23, 12:56:40 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/8/23, 12:58:33 am] Sam: lol at Phil and his copy of the guardian [26/8/23, 12:58:43 am] Sam: Really selling it there!! [26/8/23, 12:59:01 am] Sam: Ah, life - the poor trying to be rich, the rich trying to be poor [26/8/23, 12:59:05 am] Oli: Just noticed [26/8/23, 12:59:16 am] Oli: First world problems ‎[26/8/23, 1:00:35 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/8/23, 1:00:46 am] Sam: Agreed [26/8/23, 1:01:50 am] Sam: But it saddens me to see people aspiring to this vapidity [26/8/23, 1:02:40 am] Sam: I mean, for Christ’s sake, it’s a marginally more comfortable seating arrangement for, what, at most 30 or 40 hours of your year? (Well, do you _want_ to be travelling more than that?) [26/8/23, 1:03:33 am] Sam: And - while not wanting to make the argument that ‘the rich have it no better than you or me’ - on this point in particular, I really have to demonstrate that private planes are not much of a convenience [26/8/23, 1:03:42 am] Sam: Remonstrate, fucking autocorrect [26/8/23, 1:04:01 am] Sam: Like, do you think it’s convenient to lug a thirty-ton plane around with you?! [26/8/23, 1:05:17 am] Oli: London [26/8/23, 1:05:30 am] Oli: He who is tired of London is tired of life. If that’s life Dr Johnson then yes. [26/8/23, 1:05:38 am] Oli: Seems to attract those types [26/8/23, 1:06:05 am] Sam: “Let’s go skiing! Ah, there’s no hangarage at the Courchevel Altiport! Oh well, he can fly it back for another £20-30k and we can try to hire another pilot while we’re there! But oh no, Slape wants to return from the US! [etc etc it’s a long routine]” [26/8/23, 1:06:24 am] Sam: London has tired [26/8/23, 1:07:45 am] Sam: Look at how Mayfair has changed and central London has hollowed out and you can’t even bellow about meth at a Soho eatery without getting disapproving looks from some protein-shake-drinking recruitment-consulting muttonhead [26/8/23, 1:07:57 am] Sam: Who the fuck aspires to that? [26/8/23, 1:08:07 am] Oli: Yes never been on one [26/8/23, 1:08:35 am] Oli: Always fly prole (cousin in Egypt paid for me to fly smart first class once but otherwise not bothered) [26/8/23, 1:08:41 am] Oli: Makes no difference! [26/8/23, 1:08:59 am] Oli: Though I did start easyjet business thing only for the food but that’s not special [26/8/23, 1:09:07 am] Oli: People who think these things are special need heads checked [26/8/23, 1:09:20 am] Oli: Haha quite [26/8/23, 1:09:28 am] Oli: 🤣 [26/8/23, 1:09:39 am] Oli: Good point [26/8/23, 1:10:03 am] Sam: I always thought it odd when people complain about makeup and say that it hides who you actually are. Bollocks! Makeup reveals far more about who someone is - the natural quality of your skin and structure of your bones says nothing of importance, but knowing _what somebody cares about_, how they aspire to be and what they find important, that’s _immensely_ telling. And in the same way I think Slape’s extemporised confabulations on that party a.m. tell a very sad story… [26/8/23, 1:10:17 am] Sam: (Sorry, long route to a short point) [26/8/23, 1:10:23 am] Oli: Self-asphyxiating bureaucratic culture: the denouement [26/8/23, 1:10:53 am] Oli: I like that [26/8/23, 1:11:30 am] Sam: Fitter, Happier, More Productive: The Movie [26/8/23, 1:12:04 am] Sam: In case not a 00s indie kid: https://youtu.be/O4SzvsMFaek?si=bdwgVOYxgivOnW1m [26/8/23, 1:18:31 am] Sam: Business can be worthwhile sometimes. Depends. Transatlantic at least prem econ to avoid impromptu hijack suicide temptation. Membership programs prob worthwhile, esp with how loyal I am to BA’s Cityflyer flights from LCY for Euro flights (and I tend not to fly beyond civilisation), but I cba. But those flights are very cheap and a secret gem and I highly recommend them. Only reason I’m sad to have left east London tbqh. [26/8/23, 1:19:28 am] Sam: And never United. Not even once. Not even if it’s cheap. No. Stop it. Don’t even think about it. Norwegian if you must. [26/8/23, 1:21:05 am] Sam: Nor that stupid tacky thing of buying one of those “one seat on a little business jet so it looks like I have my own plane or took a charter flight when I post my 17 Instagram photos carefully selected and preened from the 438 photos in my camera roll” deals. Trashy and everyone knows how many beans make five. ‎ [26/8/23, 1:23:13 am] Sam: Fake Louis Vuitton or Burberry luggage likewise. My grandma said it best: they lost it the moment they started putting the patch on the outside. You’re not a 34-year-old Caribbean woman in Dalston shopping centre. Grow up. [26/8/23, 1:24:09 am] Sam: Priority boarding on budget airlines: you’re all morons paying to get ahead of each other. Euthanise yourselves. [26/8/23, 1:28:22 am] Sam: Likewise the idiot vacuum reflex of standing up as soon as the plane lands. Yes, you geniuses, let’s all stand awkwardly in our rows for 5–10 minutes with our necks crooked, developing rheumatoid arthritis, and saving approximately _[checks workings]_ zero seconds when they finish hooking up the umbilical cord and open the cabin doors. Marvels of evolution you are. [26/8/23, 1:32:13 am] Sam: Every single time I sit there and relax in my seat with a plane full of erect-spined mooncalves glaring at me without quite being sure why it’s so crucial that they stand up, like those sphex wasps that have to start their prey-hunting routine from scratch if you move the prey by an inch when they aren’t looking because it’s all they know how to do. [26/8/23, 1:33:28 am] Sam: Theirs not to reason why, Theirs not to make reply, Theirs but to stand and die [26/8/23, 1:38:22 am] Oli: LOL [26/8/23, 1:38:31 am] Oli: The world has gone that way [26/8/23, 1:39:07 am] Oli: Love this [26/8/23, 1:40:00 am] Sam: It really has. I hate that life of the mind stuff, largely because the stuff those people usually talk about is so utterly fatuous, but, like, _at least occasionally thinking_ can be a very enjoyable and profitable diversion! [26/8/23, 1:48:22 am] Sam: Another galling thing is people lacking even the premammalian notochord to _feel_ for themselves. People who tell themselves they like champagne and truffle crisps and the Mona Lisa and the appallingly shit thoughts of people like Will Self etc etc I’m tired of thinking of examples. People who are so thoroughly institutionalised that they can’t even enjoy a film until they’ve ascertained whether Twitter or the Guardian or fucking Anthony Lane of the New Yorker has permitted them to. [26/8/23, 1:49:32 am] Sam: About such people Lawrence was correct: ‎[26/8/23, 1:49:37 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[26/8/23, 2:01:52 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/8/23, 2:11:44 am] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. ‎[26/8/23, 2:13:39 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/8/23, 11:53:09 pm] Sam: qms ‎[26/8/23, 11:57:10 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/8/23, 12:06:51 am] Oli: He just told me he had to go via Paris ‎[27/8/23, 12:07:23 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/8/23, 12:07:29 am] Oli: Latest Slape [27/8/23, 12:07:35 am] Oli: Did he send this to you?! [27/8/23, 12:34:40 am] Sam: Where even is that? What sort of establishment is it meant to be? Is that Slape? [27/8/23, 12:41:08 am] Sam: No, sorry, it’s Phil’s cat en route to Cap F years ago - I was just alluding to the ‘Queen is entering a new phase’ meme, and to his photo from yesterday ‎ [27/8/23, 12:47:23 am] Oli: AppEntly Slaps [27/8/23, 12:47:51 am] Oli: Apparently Slape [27/8/23, 12:50:23 am] Oli: Oh it is [27/8/23, 12:50:32 am] Oli: Haha who knows if it’s really Paris [27/8/23, 12:50:59 am] Sam: I doubt it [27/8/23, 12:52:00 am] Sam: For one, smoking indoors? [27/8/23, 12:55:58 am] Sam: Also what seems to be a book about cricket [27/8/23, 1:00:30 am] Sam: And what appears to be a Thomas Daniell aquatint [27/8/23, 1:02:54 am] Sam: And a weird chintzy knockoff French Empire lamp [27/8/23, 1:03:33 am] Sam: And a fire exit that’s definitely not compliant with EU reg 92/58/EEC [27/8/23, 2:09:21 am] Oli: This catches him! [27/8/23, 2:32:05 am] Sam: Haha not 100% [27/8/23, 2:32:38 am] Sam: Not everywhere will be compliant with the regulations [27/8/23, 2:46:37 am] Sam: But it looks like it’s probably part of a hotel lobby or something like that, probably some mid-priced country house hotel in Hertfordshire near St Albans which he went to in the last year or two for a cousin’s wedding or a romantic weekend and at which he’s taken this photo, which he’s now recycling with a French theme (I mean, who’s meant to have taken this? the bloody White House photographer??). [27/8/23, 2:59:41 am] Oli: That’s a very English Fire Exit sign [27/8/23, 2:59:51 am] Oli: Come to think of it [27/8/23, 3:00:29 am] Oli: Though never seen European ones I don’t think but doesn’t look it ‎[27/8/23, 3:14:04 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/8/23, 3:14:29 am] Oli: He’s just sent another pic (Slape) [27/8/23, 3:14:35 am] Oli: Of a big house in London [27/8/23, 3:14:46 am] Oli: Captioned (‘right lost the keys to my again…’) [27/8/23, 3:14:50 am] Oli: Or maybe St Albans [27/8/23, 3:15:02 am] Oli: Just reacted haha to it. [27/8/23, 3:18:06 am] Oli: Was just out with Ivo after he sent these messages and then he confirmed ‘twas ‘im! [27/8/23, 3:18:58 am] Oli: If could see a plug socket could identify it as easily British but surely it is haha [27/8/23, 4:13:34 am] Sam: ‘Double barrelled’ lol [27/8/23, 4:14:29 am] Sam: The world’s lowest-hanging class indicator [27/8/23, 4:18:29 am] Sam: Literally fucking I have a double barrelled surname [27/8/23, 4:19:36 am] Sam: What you want is _[slaps bonnet]_ a quadruple-barrelled surname, like my sister’s friend [27/8/23, 4:19:56 am] Sam: Now that’s genuine big dick energy [27/8/23, 4:22:21 am] Sam: Not sure I’d quite say so in his latest photos! Genuinely please don’t repeat this because I’m not trying to be this cruel but it strikes me that he’s maybe romanning a bit, in his habit of using/sending old photos ‎ [27/8/23, 4:23:33 am] Sam: (i.e. doing what Roman did when he was fat, namely getting all his old photos up on his phone and insistently showing them to one) [27/8/23, 4:24:32 am] Sam: Are you able to forward it? Or perhaps the tempus has fugit [27/8/23, 4:25:35 am] Sam: I’m absolutely sure it’s English - no Frenchman would ever have English pastoral aquatints and books about cricket. And who’s meant to have taken that photo?! [27/8/23, 4:33:00 am] Sam: Incidentally shalt is (was?) the second-person indicative [27/8/23, 4:33:26 am] Sam: Third person was always shall (or shall in weird Old-to-Middle spelling) [27/8/23, 4:34:11 am] Sam: Not quite sure why, come to think of it, given one would think - coming from German - that it would be ‘shat’, lol [27/8/23, 4:35:05 am] Sam: Ich habe, du hast, ihr habt [27/8/23, 4:36:11 am] Sam: Ich esse, du isst, ihr isst [27/8/23, 4:36:21 am] Sam: Dammit, er, not ihr, I mean [27/8/23, 4:36:48 am] Sam: Ich bin, du bist, er ist (ok weird one there) [27/8/23, 4:37:00 am] Sam: Not sure whether it becomes ‘-st’ or ‘-t’ then [27/8/23, 4:37:13 am] Sam: Aaaanyway, quomodo Slape? ‎[27/8/23, 4:46:13 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/8/23, 4:46:41 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[28/8/23, 11:25:39 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[28/8/23, 11:25:39 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[28/8/23, 11:25:40 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/8/23, 11:26:04 pm] Oli: Who the hell is that [28/8/23, 11:26:10 pm] Sam: Original screenshots from Damien: ‎[28/8/23, 11:26:15 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[28/8/23, 11:26:16 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/8/23, 11:26:29 pm] Sam: As I think we’re now quite certain: Slape [28/8/23, 11:26:44 pm] Oli: Alexander? [28/8/23, 11:26:47 pm] Sam: Who is now a lecturer in psychology [28/8/23, 11:26:48 pm] Oli: He thinks it’s Camm? [28/8/23, 11:26:50 pm] Oli: Oh or Slape [28/8/23, 11:26:51 pm] Sam: Not a very good one presumably [28/8/23, 11:26:54 pm] Oli: Lolools [28/8/23, 11:27:01 pm] Oli: So slape messaging Damien on Grindr??? [28/8/23, 11:27:03 pm] Sam: No, entirely fake person [28/8/23, 11:27:16 pm] Sam: Presumably the poshest-looking person he knew and whose photos he could steal ‎[28/8/23, 11:27:41 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/8/23, 11:28:13 pm] Oli: Brother suddenly died [28/8/23, 11:28:15 pm] Sam: Lot to digest I know [28/8/23, 11:28:21 pm] Oli: Yes must be slape if he’s corroborating that mayhem [28/8/23, 11:28:23 pm] Sam: Brother back to being dead again, yes ‎[28/8/23, 11:29:16 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/8/23, 11:29:56 pm] Oli: My god [28/8/23, 11:30:06 pm] Oli: So what is Slape trying to achieve? [28/8/23, 11:30:12 pm] Oli: Messaging Damien with random photos? [28/8/23, 11:30:23 pm] Sam: Has to be Slape because his description of Slape is not just “yeah he’s a total hopeless lunatic” [28/8/23, 11:30:42 pm] Sam: God only knows [28/8/23, 11:30:53 pm] Oli: Psychology lecturer [28/8/23, 11:30:55 pm] Oli: Good ide [28/8/23, 11:30:57 pm] Oli: Idea [28/8/23, 11:31:17 pm] Sam: At a guess, maybe to see how Damien talks about him candidly? [28/8/23, 11:31:26 pm] Oli: Bit desperate [28/8/23, 11:31:29 pm] Oli: But then that’s Slape [28/8/23, 11:31:48 pm] Sam: Desperately seeking nothing in particular [28/8/23, 11:32:06 pm] Sam: Sicut Slapus est [28/8/23, 11:33:40 pm] Oli: Very creepy ‎[28/8/23, 11:33:57 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [28/8/23, 11:34:04 pm] Oli: Yes that’s the photo of the large house he sent [28/8/23, 11:34:07 pm] Oli: Didn’t screenshot in time [28/8/23, 11:34:12 pm] Oli: Just asked if he’s found the keys… [28/8/23, 11:34:22 pm] Oli: Meanwhile wonder who he’ll message next… [28/8/23, 11:34:55 pm] Oli: An character [28/8/23, 11:34:57 pm] Oli: Loooooool [28/8/23, 11:35:19 pm] Oli: Looks a prole his latest alter ego [28/8/23, 11:35:24 pm] Oli: Likes a bit of rough [28/8/23, 11:35:39 pm] Sam: Wait what is? Where’s this photo you’re referring to? [28/8/23, 11:35:51 pm] Oli: Yes sorry i alluded to it [28/8/23, 11:35:54 pm] Oli: Couldn’t get it in time [28/8/23, 11:36:08 pm] Oli: This [28/8/23, 11:36:12 pm] Sam: It’s the Rolex paradox again - this is his idea of posh, and he assumes it will have that sorta semantics to others [28/8/23, 11:36:19 pm] Sam: Or those sorta semantics [28/8/23, 11:36:27 pm] Oli: ‘I think Oliver’ [28/8/23, 11:36:32 pm] Sam: (Sorry, it’s so often used as a singular-ish in a programming context) [28/8/23, 11:36:38 pm] Oli: And Damien didn’t recognise the man ever having been in his flat? [28/8/23, 11:36:40 pm] Oli: Funny that [28/8/23, 11:36:55 pm] Sam: Couldn’t think of a single other name of any of our friends, lol [28/8/23, 11:37:10 pm] Oli: Maybe Roman will make an appearance [28/8/23, 11:37:13 pm] Sam: Like I say, he probably just materialised in a back room somewhere [28/8/23, 11:37:14 pm] Oli: Or Camm [28/8/23, 11:37:19 pm] Sam: Oh wait I said that to Damien, sorry, one sec [28/8/23, 11:37:19 pm] Oli: Camm the other guy Slape spoke to ‎[28/8/23, 11:37:35 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/8/23, 11:37:37 pm] Oli: It’s comical [28/8/23, 11:38:09 pm] Oli: He claims He stormed out hahaha [28/8/23, 11:38:14 pm] Sam: It’s absurd [28/8/23, 11:38:19 pm] Oli: Saying common Cunt [28/8/23, 11:38:22 pm] Oli: Sounds Slapian syntax [28/8/23, 11:38:27 pm] Sam: This is obviously his fantasy - he’s living out some Gatsby-like fantasy persona [28/8/23, 11:38:35 pm] Oli: Coronation St esque prole [28/8/23, 11:38:39 pm] Sam: Nb this fantasy person pities both Slape and Damien [28/8/23, 11:38:54 pm] Sam: Thus is above both of them in the Slapian great chain of being [28/8/23, 11:39:13 pm] Sam: Probably a pretty apt description [28/8/23, 11:39:16 pm] Oli: Perfect Slapian alter ego then [28/8/23, 11:39:29 pm] Sam: Oh wait no - Coronation St esque posh is what I meant [28/8/23, 11:39:36 pm] Oli: Oh hahahaha [28/8/23, 11:39:37 pm] Sam: A poor person’s idea of a rich person [28/8/23, 11:39:38 pm] Oli: Even better [28/8/23, 11:39:39 pm] Sam: That sorta thing [28/8/23, 11:39:47 pm] Oli: Good one [28/8/23, 11:39:48 pm] Oli: Yes [28/8/23, 11:39:55 pm] Sam: I feel bad for him [28/8/23, 11:40:11 pm] Sam: I’ve never met a fraud with such a dismally bad grasp of what he’s trying to impersonate [28/8/23, 11:40:44 pm] Oli: Too much time on his hands making random profiles and trying to gauge people’s opinion of him [28/8/23, 11:40:49 pm] Oli: He could pay someone to do a better job [28/8/23, 11:40:53 pm] Oli: Maybe he couldn’t [28/8/23, 11:40:56 pm] Sam: And he’s SEEN our opinions of him [28/8/23, 11:41:30 pm] Sam: When I got fed up, I sent a bunch of screenshots of initial reactions to him, mostly from my conv with Freddie [28/8/23, 11:41:40 pm] Oli: My god [28/8/23, 11:41:42 pm] Oli: Haha [28/8/23, 11:41:53 pm] Sam: (The Freddie chat is an excellent primary source because it was me explaining it to someone with no context and who wasn’t there) [28/8/23, 11:41:57 pm] Sam: Lemme find what I sent [28/8/23, 11:42:06 pm] Sam: But it should be bleeding obvious - way beyond obvious - what we think [28/8/23, 11:42:52 pm] Oli: You’d think [28/8/23, 11:42:54 pm] Oli: But then as you said [28/8/23, 11:42:57 pm] Oli: He’s one who doesn’t clock ‎[28/8/23, 11:43:56 pm] Sam: ‎video omitted [28/8/23, 11:44:09 pm] Sam: Still proud of that Breaking Bad pun [28/8/23, 11:51:09 pm] Sam: Oh sorry I just read this properly [28/8/23, 11:51:57 pm] Sam: Yes, ‘common cunt’ is not really something I can imagine anyone (certainly not anyone ‘of that sort’; well, regrettably I don’t know many others) saying [28/8/23, 11:53:39 pm] Sam: It sounds less ‘de upper en middle’ and more ‘de middle en lower’, like something Hyacinth might say to someone who burped in her house [28/8/23, 11:55:09 pm] Sam: I wonder if he misspelled “you’re” when he said it to me - I’d have been appalled if I realised at the time that it was misspelled!!! [28/8/23, 11:55:50 pm] Sam: if I’d* (I think) [28/8/23, 11:56:20 pm] Sam: See, there’s my common roots coming out - I can never fucking remember the weird English ‘fake past tenses’ that we use for the subjunctive mood [28/8/23, 11:56:22 pm] Oli: ‘I’ve had my Nervous breakdown. I’m cured now’ [28/8/23, 11:56:29 pm] Oli: ‘Let me just tell a few more lies’ [28/8/23, 11:56:37 pm] Oli: Good conversation [28/8/23, 11:56:42 pm] Oli: It didn’t seem to go in then even [28/8/23, 11:56:54 pm] Sam: “I take full responsibility! I was mad!” [28/8/23, 11:57:13 pm] Oli: Yes it’s Slapian syntax [28/8/23, 11:57:18 pm] Sam: Fuck knows what would [28/8/23, 11:57:21 pm] Oli: Catches himself out [28/8/23, 11:57:46 pm] Oli: Haha I think grammar and social whatever are long since divorced for the most part [28/8/23, 11:57:52 pm] Sam: I could blast the truth at him at 300 gallons a second through the fucking Nord Stream 2 pipeline and he wouldn’t get wet [28/8/23, 11:58:30 pm] Sam: I thank Freddie for that research [28/8/23, 11:58:55 pm] Sam: I’m actually often amused by that, because among older upper sorts (like my grandma) it really is quite associated, but among the young it’s not [28/8/23, 11:59:25 pm] Sam: And it’s not just that the grammatical rules have changed, it’s that they’re all over the place and don’t really understand or follow any rulebook at all ‎[29/8/23, 12:01:57 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 12:02:58 am] Sam: That they knew those people and lived in that world and were forced to be part of it but really contemned it, which … goddammit maybe we really are the product of our ancestors ‎[29/8/23, 12:04:59 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/8/23, 12:12:24 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 12:12:54 am] Sam: (‘private school’ = prep school) [29/8/23, 12:27:16 am] Oli: Ah yes a good writer [29/8/23, 12:27:30 am] Oli: I wonder to what extent he registered the things here. [29/8/23, 12:27:46 am] Oli: Maybe a bit as he did register at least that there was something wrong with his behaviour, but he wasn’t able to change it. [29/8/23, 12:28:11 am] Oli: I still wonder how much of it he registered (either down to inability or not wanting to admit it). [29/8/23, 12:28:17 am] Sam: That was the longest period of registration [29/8/23, 12:28:25 am] Sam: Lasting possibly several weeks [29/8/23, 12:28:45 am] Oli: Yes the ‘rules’ (predictive text changed that to ‘dukes’) have changed and gone into a funny state. [29/8/23, 12:28:58 am] Sam: And finally ending when he messaged you and Damien to inform you that Liam-Rhys had beaten him up so severely that he had unfortunately gone mad [29/8/23, 12:30:21 am] Sam: Simple: the ones we didn’t kill with death duties have won decisively and so the little social shibboleths have been retired [29/8/23, 12:31:04 am] Oli: Yes. I think some still remain and maybe new ones exist now. [29/8/23, 12:31:19 am] Oli: And even then he was making things up to try and justify it. [29/8/23, 12:32:28 am] Sam: Some aristocrats? Yes unfortunately (we shoulda gone ahead with plan B: delousing). Or some shibboleths? ‎[29/8/23, 12:33:41 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/8/23, 12:35:13 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/8/23, 12:37:18 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 12:37:33 am] Sam: Dangerously* dammit [29/8/23, 12:38:15 am] Sam: I’m disappointed that my indignation and infracaninism didn’t rub off on Slape [29/8/23, 12:42:55 am] Oli: Also, what name is Slape supposed to have used on this profile? [29/8/23, 12:43:00 am] Oli: Or did he remain nameless? 🤣 [29/8/23, 12:43:12 am] Oli: Some shibboleths but also the former haha ‎[29/8/23, 12:43:56 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 12:44:43 am] Sam: Surprisingly not Humphrey or Benedict or … fuck what’s an upper class name [29/8/23, 12:44:58 am] Oli: From the way he presents himself it seems as though nothing ‘normal’ would rub off on him. [29/8/23, 12:45:31 am] Oli: I wonder who the person actually is! [29/8/23, 12:45:39 am] Oli: Funny ‎[29/8/23, 12:45:48 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 12:46:05 am] Oli: Not Bosch! [29/8/23, 12:46:50 am] Sam: No, Miele usually [29/8/23, 12:46:53 am] Oli: My god that’s a real name [29/8/23, 12:46:56 am] Sam: Nah I’m kidding [29/8/23, 12:47:05 am] Sam: Garden of unearthly names [29/8/23, 12:47:09 am] Sam: Yup, he dead [29/8/23, 12:47:24 am] Oli: Googled this. Haha very good [29/8/23, 12:47:35 am] Oli: Yes I forgot Bosch is a washing machine etc [29/8/23, 12:47:48 am] Oli: Both dead [29/8/23, 12:47:53 am] Oli: Is that a list of dead people [29/8/23, 12:48:08 am] Sam: Yes, sorry, I was googling the guy below, who was the brother of a friend [29/8/23, 12:48:11 am] Sam: Black friend [29/8/23, 12:48:13 am] Sam: Odd [29/8/23, 12:48:23 am] Sam: Tho his father was the massively shady CEO of Credit Suisse [29/8/23, 12:49:28 am] Sam: (Once involved in a scandal where a top banker was followed by a PI, culminating in a dramatic car chase through the streets of Zurich, and subsequently it got in the news and the PI killed himself and the COO took the fall) [29/8/23, 12:49:49 am] Sam: Also a terrifyingly tall man [29/8/23, 12:49:51 am] Oli: Did he cause it to go bust? [29/8/23, 12:50:14 am] Oli: Must’ve been one of the most exciting things to happen in Zurich [29/8/23, 12:50:15 am] Sam: Trying to find a photo that conveys his tallness [29/8/23, 12:50:18 am] Sam: Not sure! ‎[29/8/23, 12:52:09 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/8/23, 12:52:27 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/8/23, 12:52:55 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/8/23, 12:54:27 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/8/23, 12:54:50 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/8/23, 12:55:16 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/8/23, 12:55:34 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 12:56:35 am] Sam: But he really was quite a terrifying man - I’m not a fearful person but he was really a quite intimidating man [29/8/23, 12:56:52 am] Sam: But no man can intimidate death ‎[29/8/23, 1:11:20 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/8/23, 1:12:11 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 1:12:30 am] Oli: Goodness yes quite tall! [29/8/23, 1:12:52 am] Oli: The ultimate leveller! [29/8/23, 1:13:06 am] Oli: Made a joke about that once to someone [29/8/23, 1:13:31 am] Oli: Almost as good as Coke! [29/8/23, 1:13:40 am] Oli: Hello Mr Meth [29/8/23, 1:13:49 am] Oli: Some have the funniest names! [29/8/23, 1:20:58 am] Sam: A joke?! [29/8/23, 1:21:07 am] Sam: This sounds very Thomas Bernhard [29/8/23, 1:21:11 am] Oli: An yes in Venice [29/8/23, 1:21:13 am] Oli: Have it somewhere [29/8/23, 1:21:24 am] Oli: This Jewish aristo baron guy who kept trying to be superior. Italian [29/8/23, 1:21:29 am] Oli: And I said he’ll be dead soon [29/8/23, 1:21:36 am] Oli: And then he and firsov will be on the same level [29/8/23, 1:21:37 am] Oli: For once [29/8/23, 1:21:39 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 ‎[29/8/23, 1:21:54 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 1:22:47 am] Sam: Eh fair enough! ‎[29/8/23, 1:23:07 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [29/8/23, 1:23:08 am] Sam: Man goeth to his long home [29/8/23, 1:24:03 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [29/8/23, 1:24:10 am] Oli: Goeth haha not quite Goethe [29/8/23, 1:24:39 am] Oli: Haha yes I suppose one of my few non-questionable observations [29/8/23, 1:25:05 am] Oli: Would thinking about it cure Slape I wonder? [29/8/23, 1:27:16 am] Oli: Or any similar such person come to think of it. [29/8/23, 1:27:40 am] Sam: Oh sorry I missed the deleted message [29/8/23, 1:27:55 am] Sam: And whatever ruminations on Goethe, I imagine, lol [29/8/23, 1:28:11 am] Sam: My grandma is big on Weimar classicism so I’m fairly well acquainted [29/8/23, 1:28:15 am] Oli: Oh was just me taking the piss out of the old man when he filled up the boat. Calling him a petrol pump man. I figured it was deviating into anecdotes 🤣 [29/8/23, 1:28:18 am] Sam: Tho she’s more of a Schiller obsessive [29/8/23, 1:28:32 am] Sam: Ohh haha [29/8/23, 1:28:46 am] Oli: Ah yes Russell mentioned Schiller and Goethe in some interview [29/8/23, 1:28:47 am] Sam: Je vois, attend un moment ‎[29/8/23, 1:30:54 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 1:31:33 am] Oli: ‘This is probably it’ 🤣 [29/8/23, 1:31:49 am] Oli: Ah rather ‘probably this is it’ [29/8/23, 1:32:28 am] Sam: Well, age, but implicitly death [29/8/23, 1:32:44 am] Sam: Death is always implicit I suppose [29/8/23, 1:32:49 am] Oli: No shared fantasies between Liam-Rhys haha [29/8/23, 1:32:55 am] Sam: The old denial of death, terror management theory, etc [29/8/23, 1:32:57 am] Oli: Though yes it’s a very erudite point. [29/8/23, 1:33:07 am] Oli: Probably lost on him because he doesn’t want to face it. [29/8/23, 1:33:17 am] Sam: No I always thought that was interesting [29/8/23, 1:33:32 am] Sam: With the sole possible exception of his short lived St Paul’s Cathedral School lie [29/8/23, 1:33:45 am] Sam: Where he mentioned details that I still think he can only have got from Leery [29/8/23, 1:34:01 am] Sam: (They weren’t dating at the time, ie when Leery worked at SPCS) [29/8/23, 1:34:29 am] Sam: Can only have been supplied ‘at need’ by Leery [29/8/23, 1:37:54 am] Oli: Ah do you think it was live? As in L-R responding to the questions you put to Slape? [29/8/23, 1:38:08 am] Oli: Or had Slape saved up a bank of information and was trying to fill in the gaps. [29/8/23, 1:38:14 am] Oli: ? [29/8/23, 1:38:16 am] Oli: I wonder! [29/8/23, 1:40:50 am] Oli: Also… [29/8/23, 1:40:55 am] Oli: Re the Grindr thing. [29/8/23, 1:41:08 am] Oli: Do you think Slape was standing outside Damien’s to find Damien? [29/8/23, 1:41:14 am] Oli: How else would he message him? [29/8/23, 1:41:16 am] Sam: I do almost think so… But possibly the latter 🤷 [29/8/23, 1:41:27 am] Oli: So he was standing outside his flat (or in a nearby place) writing that? [29/8/23, 1:41:31 am] Oli: If he messaged first? [29/8/23, 1:41:51 am] Sam: Location spoofing perhaps, which Raz always did (for innocent reasons, like the time he found a Croatian twink to show us around Zagreb before our trip) [29/8/23, 1:42:20 am] Sam: Depends how technologically adroit Slape is [29/8/23, 1:42:27 am] Sam: Suspect answer is prob not much [29/8/23, 1:42:34 am] Sam: Or not very, rather [29/8/23, 1:42:39 am] Sam: (Common roots showing) [29/8/23, 1:47:31 am] Oli: Sorry I was just laughing at the depravity of it all and going over the screenshots. [29/8/23, 1:47:57 am] Oli: It’s actually quite creepy the idea of him sending random pictures and trying to just fool someone so brazenly. [29/8/23, 1:48:13 am] Oli: But also so wacky as to be out of this world because it’s Slape. I can’t really understand it. [29/8/23, 1:48:30 am] Oli: That would be very clever! [29/8/23, 1:48:50 am] Oli: Slape has brown roots but is a natural blond [29/8/23, 1:49:18 am] Oli: What a fucking loon! [29/8/23, 1:49:50 am] Oli: So to get this right he either used explore or just wrote to him standing nearby. [29/8/23, 1:50:14 am] Oli: Not sure why that’s relevant because the point is the madness of the actual act but I just find even thinking about it shows how totally loopy this is. [29/8/23, 1:51:22 am] Oli: ‘Slape?’ [29/8/23, 1:51:30 am] Oli: ‘No, although I actually know him’ [29/8/23, 1:51:32 am] Oli: 🤣 [29/8/23, 1:51:46 am] Oli: ‘He’s an character’ [29/8/23, 1:51:49 am] Oli: Certainly is! ‎[29/8/23, 1:54:43 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [29/8/23, 1:55:02 am] Sam: ^ re this [29/8/23, 1:55:54 am] Sam: Presumably yes. Yup. It’s yet another illustration of the reality that he’s not simply mad, that some thought goes into this deceit (as unbelievable as that may seem!). [29/8/23, 1:59:55 am] Sam: One of the few indefeasible indicators of having deleted and replaced a word (along with the telltale double-space, which on iOS is a shortcut for entering a period / full stop and therefore is near-impossible to do naturally while writing a whole sentence) [29/8/23, 2:08:04 am] Oli: Unless it’s just another instance of awful Slapian grammar [29/8/23, 2:09:08 am] Oli: Just tested the latter. Never knew that. I just noticed that it can be overridden if one does a double space a second time (after deleting the full stop). [29/8/23, 2:09:15 am] Oli: Test [29/8/23, 2:09:20 am] Oli: Test test [29/8/23, 2:10:08 am] Sam: Oh, interesting! That may be a new thing! I believe you can also disable it in the settings, but one can fairly safely assume that most people haven’t done that. [29/8/23, 2:10:29 am] Sam: It’s pretty hard to imagine, though. Can you imagine him saying it out loud?? [29/8/23, 2:11:04 am] Sam: It’s one thing to say (as my grandma probably would, fuck knows why) “he’s an historian”, but to say “he’s a character”?! [29/8/23, 2:12:00 am] Sam: (Ok, this fuck knows why, but it’s a stupid reason since in English the ‘h’ is aspirated) ‎[29/8/23, 2:18:12 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 3:38:29 am] Oli: Makes sense. But maybe these things are mostly unconscious errors. He might naturally in speech say a character but when writing say something else and not even think about it. I wonder. But maybe your theory is more likely. [29/8/23, 3:39:53 am] Oli: Funnily I would probably say an historian. Thinking about what you say, it is also unconscious (I think) as only just realised the H and it being aspirated. Whereas if saying ‘a historian’ it’s very Hhhhhhist. Haha [29/8/23, 3:41:11 am] Oli: I wonder what his replaced word was! [29/8/23, 4:31:46 am] Sam: This is interesting. ‘H’ is sort of a half-consonant I suppose. Flows quite easily after certain other consonants, like ‘n’. [29/8/23, 4:35:49 am] Sam: As best I recall, in Greek you still add the ‘movable nu’ to words ending in a vowel when the next word begins with an aspirated (‘rough breathing’) vowel. So ‘elegen hellenikos’, for a contrived example. [29/8/23, 4:40:01 am] Sam: Italian? [29/8/23, 4:47:17 am] Sam: Also, re the point earlier about grammar, I think _all_ those educational badges of the ruling class have sorta vanished nowadays, Greek and Latin included. I believe Roman did zero Greek _or_ Latin at school. If he did, he doesn’t remember it. Freddie most of the time didn’t respond to my random Greek and Latin allusions and quotations but occasionally and maybe-accidentally would let slip that he understood something. ‎[29/8/23, 4:50:16 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 5:03:21 am] Sam: Actually, I was saying to someone recently (maybe you but I think Alex) that the places where Greek and Latin are still alive are not so much the major public schools (or evidently not Eton at any rate) but the second-rate schools like mine, which are trying to be ‘posher than posh’ and haven’t quite caught up with the new ways. [29/8/23, 5:04:25 am] Sam: At Eton presumably they’re taught Mandarin so they can communicate with their classmates and future enslavers ‎[29/8/23, 2:36:45 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 2:36:52 pm] Oli: ‘He seem to think it’s me’ - latest [29/8/23, 2:37:22 pm] Oli: More later sorry fell asleep. Now going to police speeding awareness course. Haha they’re good fun. Like Alcoholics Anonymous. Make friends with reprobate drivers trying to be ‘reformed’ 🤣 [29/8/23, 2:37:43 pm] Oli: Slape says bad form of Damien to think it’s him on his mother’s 65th birthday. All stupid nonsense hah. [29/8/23, 2:38:06 pm] Oli: Trying to prompt some more stuff. [29/8/23, 2:40:12 pm] Oli: He’s on Loro Piana now… ‎[29/8/23, 2:51:17 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 2:51:30 pm] Oli: ‘George was there in his flat at [the] party’ [29/8/23, 2:57:29 pm] Oli: Just asked him to elaborate more on George. Now he’s stalled! ‎[29/8/23, 3:09:44 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 4:21:48 pm] Sam: ‘Problem is the individual George was there in his flat at party’ ??? [29/8/23, 4:21:52 pm] Sam: Problem is he wasn’t [29/8/23, 4:22:05 pm] Sam: Does he think we’re all as batshit insane as he is ?! ‎[29/8/23, 4:25:46 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/8/23, 4:26:42 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 4:26:51 pm] Oli: Yes well the Slapes have 3 birthdays a year [29/8/23, 4:26:58 pm] Oli: They’re a different species you see. They age differently [29/8/23, 4:27:24 pm] Oli: 🥸 [29/8/23, 4:27:27 pm] Sam: Don’t want to do it too fast! (Or fastly or whatever the fuck it is) [29/8/23, 4:27:33 pm] Oli: Don’t think he even thinks but that’s the implication [29/8/23, 4:27:52 pm] Sam: Like the Queen! Maybe that’s why they call it Buck House! ‎[29/8/23, 4:28:47 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/8/23, 4:28:49 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 4:29:37 pm] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. ‎[29/8/23, 4:30:10 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/8/23, 4:30:34 pm] Sam: Call it a non-abelian algebraic topology because nothing ever adds up [29/8/23, 4:31:25 pm] Sam: Ah yes, Slape with his customary gallantry is throwing Liam-Rhys to the tiger and running away squealing ‎ [29/8/23, 4:33:21 pm] Oli: He looks terribly grand here. [29/8/23, 4:33:29 pm] Oli: This is actually insane [29/8/23, 4:34:55 pm] Oli: Imagine being called common by him [29/8/23, 4:34:59 pm] Sam: This is completely insane and pathetic [29/8/23, 4:35:52 pm] Oli: I wonder if Slape is a figment of our imagination. [29/8/23, 4:36:23 pm] Sam: I don’t know to what extent he’s responsible for this, to what extent some process of reasoning has gone into this. Clearly _something_ is the matter with him given he’s persisted so long in the face of what should be obvious evidence to any reasonably intelligent human being or geologically recent chordate that it is not having the intended effect. [29/8/23, 4:36:55 pm] Sam: Ah, the Pale Fire theory! I mean, sure, why the fuck not, I suppose? 🤷 ‎[31/8/23, 1:45:51 am] Sam: ‎video omitted ‎[31/8/23, 1:09:50 pm] Sam: ‎video omitted [31/8/23, 1:11:08 pm] Sam: Just look at all that useless space next to all those densely-packed housing estates and tower blocks [31/8/23, 1:11:51 pm] Sam: And just so some third-rate north London Jews could go and play rugger very poorly ‎[25/9/23, 6:43:51 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [25/9/23, 6:46:52 am] Sam: (God even in my slightly deranged state that’s a haunting photo… definite Hunter Biden vibes) [25/9/23, 4:47:26 pm] Oli: Or both! FedEx meth! 🤣 [25/9/23, 4:49:28 pm] Oli: I can see the Hunter Biden thing a bit but only in one photo of him, in which he looks slightly apprehensive. Maybe I haven’t looked it up properly! [25/9/23, 4:52:44 pm] Oli: Good morning too! ☀️🌤️ [25/9/23, 8:48:33 pm] Oli: I think you look OK by the way but maybe a bit tired! [25/9/23, 8:48:53 pm] Oli: I am probably the same. My sleeping schedule is odd but I go to sleep during the day! [25/9/23, 8:49:22 pm] Oli: Early night, if I manage, is sometime after midnight and before or around 3! [25/9/23, 11:51:05 pm] Sam: Thanks for ‘ok’ lol [25/9/23, 11:51:20 pm] Oli: LOL [25/9/23, 11:51:25 pm] Sam: Yes I need to wake up - imma have some of _to methu_ [25/9/23, 11:51:29 pm] Oli: I realised it sounded bad when I said it but I didn’t mean it like that [25/9/23, 11:51:42 pm] Sam: I need to just install a fucking Greek keyboard on this fucking thing, I’m sick of fucking autocorrect [25/9/23, 11:51:54 pm] Sam: Haha no I’m joking [25/9/23, 11:52:14 pm] Sam: Not as bad as that message to Freddie which I think I screenshotted and sent [25/9/23, 11:52:23 pm] Oli: Good idea [25/9/23, 11:52:36 pm] Oli: Well… I can feel better by thinking of Mr Kingsley [25/9/23, 11:52:41 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 [25/9/23, 11:53:20 pm] Sam: Yeah I don’t seriously ever feel bad about my looks - I find it very mystifying that people do [25/9/23, 11:53:30 pm] Sam: In fact I never feel insecure at all really [25/9/23, 11:53:48 pm] Sam: My working theory is that my parents applied some psychological black magic to us growing up [25/9/23, 11:54:29 pm] Sam: I was saying to Damien [25/9/23, 11:54:38 pm] Sam: When talking about his apologies for the various things he shouted at me in that weird evening I mentioned before [25/9/23, 11:55:10 pm] Sam: That I’m not really modest [25/9/23, 11:56:06 pm] Sam: I’m just so serenely confident in myself that no human device can pierce my self-esteem [25/9/23, 11:56:23 pm] Sam: God my brain is running low, attend un moment ‎[26/9/23, 1:41:25 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 1:42:09 am] Oli: Hmm. [26/9/23, 1:42:30 am] Oli: Maybe he finds it funny how someone can be described in that way. [26/9/23, 1:42:45 am] Oli: I’m not sure the denizens of Ulster typically describe people in such a way! ‎[26/9/23, 1:42:54 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [26/9/23, 1:43:48 am] Oli: ‘This awful man he’s a great snob’ [26/9/23, 1:43:52 am] Sam: I thought he maybe read ‘great’ as in ‘wonderful’, like it was an approbative predicate - but that theory feels a bit far-out [26/9/23, 1:43:55 am] Oli: He’s awful and is a big snob [26/9/23, 1:44:06 am] Oli: Yes I suspected that too but I’m not sure. [26/9/23, 1:44:23 am] Oli: That could be it actually [26/9/23, 1:44:28 am] Sam: 🤷 shall remain a mystery [26/9/23, 1:44:38 am] Oli: Yes [26/9/23, 1:44:41 am] Sam: I’ll try to think of a way to see if I can tease it out of him without asking point blank [26/9/23, 1:44:42 am] Oli: I think it could be. [26/9/23, 1:45:00 am] Sam: The problem is that no one would ever use the word ‘snob’ approvingly [26/9/23, 1:45:15 am] Oli: Maybe that’s why he finds it funny [26/9/23, 1:45:22 am] Sam: Not that they’d never approve of the concept, i.e. of someone’s being a snob, but I don’t think they’d use that word [26/9/23, 1:45:24 am] Oli: Maybe he thinks people would [26/9/23, 1:45:52 am] Sam: They’d say a discriminating man, a discerning man, a man of taste or refinement or fuck knows what (channelling my inner Old Seatonian) [26/9/23, 1:46:01 am] Sam: That’s also possible actually [26/9/23, 1:46:19 am] Oli: Lol just how mad my mind is, and on related point… [26/9/23, 1:46:31 am] Oli: Funny how it’s so casual for people here to just raise a glass and drink from it… [26/9/23, 1:46:43 am] Oli: But not for them to sniff some coke off a plate whilst listening… [26/9/23, 1:46:49 am] Oli: Or to smoke a meth pipe! [26/9/23, 1:47:03 am] Sam: This is an oddly common class of error that I find myself and others falling into: forgetting that you’re hypothesising about _someone else’s reasoning_, who will probably have incomplete knowledge (as we all do but we at least accept it’s true of others) [26/9/23, 1:47:23 am] Oli: Seaton is a Floreat with Liam-Rhys [26/9/23, 1:47:25 am] Sam: Here meaning…? The UK? The world? [26/9/23, 1:47:32 am] Oli: Sorry I meant in the video [26/9/23, 1:47:39 am] Oli: But actually yes indeed in the UK [26/9/23, 1:47:44 am] Oli: In the west [26/9/23, 1:48:05 am] Sam: Yeah I find it very odd [26/9/23, 1:48:11 am] Oli: Exactly [26/9/23, 1:48:11 am] Sam: Lemme find the clip Raz once showed me [26/9/23, 1:48:14 am] Oli: It’s a problematic one [26/9/23, 1:48:21 am] Sam: Bc I think it unironically sums up the British and maybe Worldish attitude [26/9/23, 1:48:23 am] Oli: (Hypothesising about others) [26/9/23, 1:49:03 am] Sam: https://youtu.be/MIAJemmO-bg?si=pZksjiuhxUiDxii2 [26/9/23, 1:49:07 am] Sam: 4m00s [26/9/23, 1:49:20 am] Oli: 00s lol [26/9/23, 1:49:57 am] Sam: Oddly I feel that conveys some information somehow - quite an deceptively deep point, that one, I vaguely feel [26/9/23, 1:50:21 am] Oli: LOL [26/9/23, 1:50:23 am] Oli: 5 year olds [26/9/23, 1:50:26 am] Oli: They hasn’t heard of drugs [26/9/23, 1:50:39 am] Oli: Yes alcohol isn’t a drug it’s a drink 🤣 [26/9/23, 1:51:50 am] Oli: At least you both made up it seems! [26/9/23, 2:35:22 am] Sam: We’d never not made up, I don’t think, or at least it was only briefly that we were made down [26/9/23, 2:36:40 am] Sam: I still have my problems with some stuff he’s done and said, to be sure, not least the famous incident of my savaging him with the broom handle, but hey, we all contain multitudes [26/9/23, 2:37:18 am] Sam: Sometimes all on one evening, in Damien’s case! [26/9/23, 2:40:03 am] Sam: (Nah I’m just being droll. That’s one thing that always amused me, in a wry sort of way: being ashamed of drug use was something I could understand, even though to an extent it wasn’t my culture and certainly it isn’t in my nature, but being ashamed of being promiscuous—not least as a guy—is really and truly alien to me.) ‎[26/9/23, 2:49:14 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [26/9/23, 2:54:18 am] Sam: I think it’s often a self-reassuring thing, a way of digesting experience and moulding it into a story of reality that makes sense and is acceptable to us. And it’s also a kind of ritual by which we teach ourselves moral lessons. It’s necessary. (Eg the CIA trains its men to remain sane in captivity by replaying conversations in one’s head, roleplaying as one participant and then as the other, etc.) But if you gaze long into the abyss… [26/9/23, 4:33:30 am] Oli: Oh my god. Sorry. I have been up all night sitting talking nonsense with t’ cousin in Edinburgh. Hilarious. Dance to the music of coke. [26/9/23, 4:33:43 am] Oli: Absolute madness. 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 4:40:04 am] Sam: Oh gosh, I’m sorry to hear that, I hope you’re ok [26/9/23, 4:40:15 am] Sam: Let me know if you need any help returning to civilisation [26/9/23, 4:40:45 am] Sam: (I suppose that’s a bit rich coming from Harrow) [26/9/23, 4:42:40 am] Sam: I don’t know quite why you’ve so adopted one of my rubbishest allusions! [26/9/23, 4:43:00 am] Oli: I loved it! It made me laugh so much at the time [26/9/23, 4:43:00 am] Sam: /puns (?) (not really) [26/9/23, 4:43:15 am] Sam: Strange! ‎[26/9/23, 4:45:20 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 4:47:23 am] Sam: I had meant to send some sort of sleazy message but I think I’m dehydrated so please pardon me while I first attend to my health [26/9/23, 4:47:48 am] Sam: Also please let me know if you would definitely be amenable to / not amenable to aforementioned sleaze [26/9/23, 4:48:09 am] Oli: Oh yes I can do sleaze. Normal isn’t it! 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 4:48:11 am] Sam: It’s probably mainly bc I cba with Grindr at the moment and I’m talking to you and Damien and so that’s where my mind is [26/9/23, 4:48:39 am] Sam: And I did have a weird twisted desire to sleep with Damien, in view of all this flat stuff, as one does [26/9/23, 4:49:39 am] Oli: Cocaigne champagne and Coca Cola [26/9/23, 4:49:58 am] Sam: (This is probably my one non-vanilla thing - it’s hardly consistent enough to be describable but I definitely have a weirdly dark tendency to want to sleep with people I shouldn’t sleep with, for weird reasons.. eg I maybe mentioned my being raped, I think, but maybe didn’t mention that for god knows what reason I later hooked up with the guy who did the raping, when he was out of prison (for unrelated charges)) [26/9/23, 4:50:24 am] Oli: The guy who raped you? [26/9/23, 4:50:26 am] Sam: Was great! [26/9/23, 4:50:29 am] Oli: Goodness! That is a revelation [26/9/23, 4:50:44 am] Sam: Yeah - god I was meant to be being sleazy, how the FUCK do I manage to waffle so much [26/9/23, 4:50:56 am] Sam: Let me grab a drink and then abnormal service will resume [26/9/23, 4:51:05 am] Sam: (A drink of water!!) [26/9/23, 4:51:13 am] Oli: I like abnnormal services resubmit [26/9/23, 4:51:14 am] Oli: Resuming [26/9/23, 4:51:15 am] Sam: Oh I forgot to finish this story [26/9/23, 4:51:20 am] Oli: At least no promises of normality [26/9/23, 4:51:51 am] Sam: He didn’t want to have sex (Well, I didn’t propose it per se, but one sorta gets the vibe or doesn’t get the vibe - anyway probably for the best! Why is my brain like this???) [26/9/23, 4:52:05 am] Oli: Was this in Mayfair flat? [26/9/23, 4:52:13 am] Oli: Or Paddington [26/9/23, 4:52:24 am] Oli: He does seem to have it with so many people [26/9/23, 4:52:28 am] Oli: So not sure why he didn’t want to [26/9/23, 4:52:30 am] Sam: I have slept with Damien before, obviously - I’m a Londoner - but in this context I guess it for some weird dark deep-in-Bataille reason it appealed [26/9/23, 4:52:34 am] Oli: Maybe not eating the sweets in the shop [26/9/23, 4:52:47 am] Oli: ‘I’m a Londoner’ haha [26/9/23, 4:53:07 am] Oli: Could either mean all Londoners sleep with Damien or the more logical all London gays are in a revolving door 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 4:53:08 am] Oli: Hahaha [26/9/23, 4:53:10 am] Sam: In Johnlewistavia flat, yeah [26/9/23, 4:53:23 am] Sam: The former, haha [26/9/23, 4:53:32 am] Oli: Bloody hell [26/9/23, 4:53:34 am] Oli: Very funny [26/9/23, 4:53:44 am] Sam: I mean [26/9/23, 4:54:00 am] Sam: He did tell you about the time he had six hookups in one night? Haha [26/9/23, 4:54:05 am] Oli: No!!! [26/9/23, 4:54:10 am] Oli: Maybe that’s what coke does to him [26/9/23, 4:54:14 am] Oli: God [26/9/23, 4:55:02 am] Sam: (Sorry, maybe I shouldn’t say this - it’s a weird one because I consider it utterly unshameful, like to the extent that it doesn’t even occur to me most of the time, but he of course seems to take the attitude of a Benedictine nun) [26/9/23, 4:55:12 am] Sam: Probably meth some of the time, but also just Damien [26/9/23, 4:55:17 am] Sam: Same at Paddington [26/9/23, 4:55:34 am] Oli: Oh as in not reporting it? He finds it embarrassing? [26/9/23, 4:55:36 am] Sam: Except on very very rare occasions I don’t think he dipped below 1-2 a day (fairly even spread of 1s and 2s) [26/9/23, 4:55:41 am] Oli: The solution to that is not to do it I’d say 🤣 [26/9/23, 4:55:54 am] Oli: Bloody hell [26/9/23, 4:55:54 am] Sam: Yeah, did I not say? I’m sure I’ve mentioned this [26/9/23, 4:55:58 am] Oli: How the fuck does he do it [26/9/23, 4:56:02 am] Sam: God maybe I shouldn’t have mentioned his embarrassment [26/9/23, 4:56:06 am] Oli: You have reported some of it in the past but not the 6 [26/9/23, 4:56:16 am] Sam: I mean personally tbqh I’d be more embarrassed about the embarrassment than the sex, if it were me [26/9/23, 4:56:21 am] Oli: I think you might’ve but one forgets these things [26/9/23, 4:56:30 am] Sam: Why is there something strangely embarrassing about embarrassment? [26/9/23, 4:56:39 am] Sam: Ah yes that was the record [26/9/23, 4:56:51 am] Oli: Yes because it reveals the person to be weak or somewhat of a wet blanket in my eyes. [26/9/23, 4:56:52 am] Sam: Also stuff like Slape walking into his room when he had a hookup over [26/9/23, 4:57:02 am] Oli: YES! 🤣 [26/9/23, 4:57:12 am] Oli: Slape was a planned hookup originally apparently [26/9/23, 4:57:16 am] Sam: Which was at least in part because he fucking sneaks these people in like it’s fucking Colditz or something [26/9/23, 4:57:23 am] Oli: He tried to come back with me and then got into bed with Damien [26/9/23, 4:57:24 am] Sam: Either purposely or just accidentally [26/9/23, 4:57:27 am] Oli: On the housewarming [26/9/23, 4:57:28 am] Sam: So absurdly quietly [26/9/23, 4:57:34 am] Sam: A planned hookup?????? [26/9/23, 4:57:40 am] Oli: Well sorry not planned [26/9/23, 4:57:48 am] Oli: I thought Damien met him on a ‘date’ [26/9/23, 4:57:54 am] Sam: Actually I dimly remember Damien mentioning a few times that Slape had made some sex boast [26/9/23, 4:57:59 am] Oli: 🤣 [26/9/23, 4:58:04 am] Sam: And that he’d been interested to sleep with him for that reason [26/9/23, 4:58:18 am] Sam: And tbh Damien may well sleep with someone purely for the sake of minor factchecking [26/9/23, 4:58:19 am] Oli: Slape probably boasted of a 20 inch cock [26/9/23, 4:58:35 am] Sam: No it was something about making people cum with or without something or other [26/9/23, 4:58:40 am] Sam: His hands? Dick? Something? [26/9/23, 4:58:44 am] Sam: Without his presence probably [26/9/23, 4:58:55 am] Oli: He said that to me too [26/9/23, 4:58:58 am] Oli: Maybe it’s in a WhatsApp [26/9/23, 4:58:59 am] Oli: My god [26/9/23, 4:59:05 am] Sam: Oh well thank god he hasn’t said it to me [26/9/23, 4:59:10 am] Sam: I was petrified when [26/9/23, 4:59:13 am] Sam: Wait a mo ‎[26/9/23, 4:59:44 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 5:00:00 am] Sam: Strikes fear into grown men’s hearts [26/9/23, 5:00:10 am] Sam: (Not that I’d know) [26/9/23, 5:00:32 am] Oli: Fuck [26/9/23, 5:00:36 am] Oli: He said the same to me about laughing [26/9/23, 5:00:43 am] Oli: Maybe that’s one of his emotional manipulations [26/9/23, 5:00:47 am] Sam: Hahaha [26/9/23, 5:00:57 am] Sam: It’s the kind of line that might work if he were hot [26/9/23, 5:01:13 am] Sam: But hey, principle of explosion [26/9/23, 5:01:12 am] Oli: On the road to recovery! [26/9/23, 5:01:26 am] Sam: If Slape is hot, the moon is made of cheese [26/9/23, 5:01:44 am] Sam: If Slape is hot, there will be a train from London to Antarctica leaving in 5 minutes [26/9/23, 5:01:48 am] Sam: From Marylebone station [26/9/23, 5:01:54 am] Sam: Etc [26/9/23, 5:01:57 am] Sam: Wait ffs [26/9/23, 5:02:06 am] Sam: I need to have some water and then be sleazy [26/9/23, 5:02:08 am] Sam: Hold on [26/9/23, 5:02:11 am] Oli: LOL [26/9/23, 5:02:18 am] Oli: I am just clearing up here too [26/9/23, 5:02:20 am] Oli: Whilst talking [26/9/23, 5:02:21 am] Oli: Fun [26/9/23, 5:02:24 am] Oli: Multitasker! [26/9/23, 5:02:29 am] Oli: Holding [26/9/23, 5:07:20 am] Sam: Wait so where are you? [26/9/23, 5:07:24 am] Sam: Why in Edinburgh [26/9/23, 5:07:29 am] Sam: And where in Edinburgh [26/9/23, 5:07:43 am] Oli: Yes Stockbridge [26/9/23, 5:07:46 am] Oli: Danube Street LOL [26/9/23, 5:07:51 am] Sam: What’s that? [26/9/23, 5:08:02 am] Oli: Name of street am on but just found it funny [26/9/23, 5:08:08 am] Oli: Stockbridge is an area of Edinburgh [26/9/23, 5:08:12 am] Sam: I know Morningside (few people) and I know Leith (trainspotting and Alex) [26/9/23, 5:08:25 am] Oli: Well my cousin is a student here which is very odd because you just socialise with the same people everyday [26/9/23, 5:08:33 am] Oli: And talk nonsense with them [26/9/23, 5:08:37 am] Oli: So am trapped [26/9/23, 5:08:45 am] Oli: May return to England soon for a holiday 🤣🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 5:08:53 am] Oli: Alex Camm? Leith? [26/9/23, 5:09:15 am] Sam: Wait how long have you been there??!? [26/9/23, 5:09:17 am] Oli: My boring St Paul’s friend you met (melon man I think you said) is also Alex and probably a train spotter 🤣🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 5:09:22 am] Sam: Huntesmith [26/9/23, 5:09:23 am] Sam: Ex [26/9/23, 5:09:28 am] Oli: Not quite sure now I think a week and a half maybe 2 weeks [26/9/23, 5:09:30 am] Oli: 🤣 [26/9/23, 5:09:32 am] Sam: Lived in Edinburgh for ease of access to heroin [26/9/23, 5:09:54 am] Sam: So probably a few days from this inertial reference frame, ok [26/9/23, 5:10:01 am] Sam: How is it [26/9/23, 5:10:15 am] Sam: How Scottish are they in that area [26/9/23, 5:10:17 am] Oli: Hume was rejected from the university [26/9/23, 5:10:23 am] Oli: But they now have a statue of him! [26/9/23, 5:10:39 am] Sam: Dave or some family leaf [26/9/23, 5:10:39 am] Oli: Yes there are some Scottish people. Somewhere. Not quite sure where. [26/9/23, 5:10:44 am] Oli: They must exist here [26/9/23, 5:10:46 am] Oli: David [26/9/23, 5:10:47 am] Oli: Haha [26/9/23, 5:10:54 am] Oli: Dodgy Dave [26/9/23, 5:10:57 am] Sam: Where did he go? [26/9/23, 5:11:01 am] Sam: Glasgow was it [26/9/23, 5:11:05 am] Sam: I can’t quite recall [26/9/23, 5:11:07 am] Oli: Wi-Fi [26/9/23, 5:11:12 am] Oli: Must look it up [26/9/23, 5:11:15 am] Oli: Why did my phone tupe wi go [26/9/23, 5:11:17 am] Oli: Wifi [26/9/23, 5:11:39 am] Oli: Oh no he did go to Edinburgh [26/9/23, 5:11:43 am] Sam: I don’t know - maybe it’s acquired a volitional faculty [26/9/23, 5:11:44 am] Oli: I think they rejected him from teaching there [26/9/23, 5:11:47 am] Oli: I think that’s right [26/9/23, 5:11:57 am] Sam: Probably wise [26/9/23, 5:12:05 am] Sam: Wouldn’t want anyone who’d been to such a rubbish university [26/9/23, 5:12:26 am] Sam: (I joke but tbqh that seems to be the hiring policy of many second and third rank universities, probably inc kcl) [26/9/23, 5:12:29 am] Oli: Yes it is a funny place [26/9/23, 5:12:31 am] Oli: They have trams [26/9/23, 5:12:51 am] Sam: You’re meant to just say women! [26/9/23, 5:13:03 am] Sam: Trams women are women [26/9/23, 5:13:09 am] Oli: I had forgotten! [26/9/23, 5:13:19 am] Sam: Actually come to think of it they also have J K Rowling don’t they [26/9/23, 5:13:21 am] Oli: They are quite strict on that here it seems& [26/9/23, 5:13:24 am] Sam: In fact I believe morningside doee [26/9/23, 5:13:26 am] Sam: Does [26/9/23, 5:13:25 am] Oli: She is Exeter! [26/9/23, 5:13:32 am] Oli: Does she live in Edinburgh? [26/9/23, 5:13:37 am] Sam: No I meant she lives there, I think [26/9/23, 5:13:38 am] Sam: Or did [26/9/23, 5:13:39 am] Oli: Oh [26/9/23, 5:13:43 am] Sam: Near-ish someone I knew [26/9/23, 5:13:43 am] Oli: Yes she could do. [26/9/23, 5:13:50 am] Sam: But twas while ago [26/9/23, 5:13:51 am] Oli: Makes sense [26/9/23, 5:14:02 am] Oli: All the students I’ve met have been English [26/9/23, 5:14:12 am] Sam: Sounds about right [26/9/23, 5:14:15 am] Oli: I met one or two Scottish people but they seemed ‘English’ too [26/9/23, 5:14:24 am] Sam: It’s a shelter for people who got lost on the way to Bristol [26/9/23, 5:14:37 am] Sam: That’ll be Morningside [26/9/23, 5:14:38 am] Oli: And Freddie Pouf Lennox wants to come here to meet poufs [26/9/23, 5:14:44 am] Sam: Or maybe one of those weird places like Fife [26/9/23, 5:14:51 am] Oli: So I have been having to hide from his messages! [26/9/23, 5:14:57 am] Oli: He is becoming pestering! [26/9/23, 5:15:10 am] Sam: How is he doing? [26/9/23, 5:15:09 am] Oli: Sounds a very nice name 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 5:15:11 am] Oli: Yea! [26/9/23, 5:15:17 am] Sam: (Is he doing? Maybe he’s started!) [26/9/23, 5:15:31 am] Oli: He is a wanker I think [26/9/23, 5:15:34 am] Sam: ((That could mean sex or it could mean doing anything at all)) [26/9/23, 5:15:37 am] Oli: As in always cracking one off [26/9/23, 5:15:39 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 5:15:42 am] Sam: Another possible double ent [26/9/23, 5:15:43 am] Sam: Ah [26/9/23, 5:15:54 am] Sam: I mean yes probably [26/9/23, 5:16:06 am] Oli: He kept video calling me and putting the phone in an odd place [26/9/23, 5:16:14 am] Sam: I feel sorry for his girlfriend [26/9/23, 5:16:15 am] Oli: He’s a bit disturbed! [26/9/23, 5:16:17 am] Sam: Or fag hag [26/9/23, 5:16:48 am] Oli: He means well. He has some sex problem I gather! [26/9/23, 5:16:55 am] Sam: Being gay? [26/9/23, 5:17:03 am] Sam: Or something else? [26/9/23, 5:17:07 am] Sam: I imagine sex is a problem [26/9/23, 5:17:14 am] Sam: Or her sex [26/9/23, 5:17:18 am] Oli: Being gay probably yes but he makes it out to be other things. [26/9/23, 5:17:23 am] Oli: He must do something with her! [26/9/23, 5:17:39 am] Sam: What, liking to sing Liza Minnelli numbers? [26/9/23, 5:17:51 am] Oli: He got into bed when I was asleep at this London party many months ago. [26/9/23, 5:17:54 am] Oli: Very odd behaviour! [26/9/23, 5:18:02 am] Sam: Ah yes he told me [26/9/23, 5:18:05 am] Sam: Let me find [26/9/23, 5:18:05 am] Oli: He tried to pretend it was normal drunk/drug behaviour… [26/9/23, 5:18:18 am] Oli: But thinking about it it seems convenient! [26/9/23, 5:18:29 am] Oli: Yes! That is what they do basically. ‎[26/9/23, 5:20:46 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 5:20:53 am] Sam: Lord Hovis or whatever [26/9/23, 5:21:14 am] Oli: Hovis 🤣🤣🤣 ‎[26/9/23, 5:23:20 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[26/9/23, 5:23:23 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 5:23:54 am] Oli: Yes!! ‎[26/9/23, 5:24:12 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 5:24:12 am] Oli: Making out that it just randomly happened or that it was such a surprise. [26/9/23, 5:24:30 am] Sam: Wdym? [26/9/23, 5:24:40 am] Sam: Jesus why can’t he just be gay [26/9/23, 5:24:41 am] Oli: Him getting into bed! 🤣 [26/9/23, 5:24:54 am] Sam: He’s a veal calf anyway except in case of a serious plane crash scenario [26/9/23, 5:25:02 am] Oli: That was an embarrassing party. [26/9/23, 5:25:05 am] Sam: He’s a macerator chick [26/9/23, 5:25:06 am] Oli: What a fucking mess that was. [26/9/23, 5:25:15 am] Sam: How so? [26/9/23, 5:25:21 am] Oli: It was a 3 day affair if I remember correctly [26/9/23, 5:25:28 am] Sam: I remember more than I’d like to but hey that’s belady’s anomaly [26/9/23, 5:25:34 am] Oli: Or two days anyway. I remember somehow having supper with people after that. [26/9/23, 5:25:38 am] Oli: The same people. [26/9/23, 5:25:40 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 5:25:45 am] Oli: And carrying it on. [26/9/23, 5:25:53 am] Sam: Yes I remember that [26/9/23, 5:25:57 am] Oli: Closeted! [26/9/23, 5:26:00 am] Sam: Something about stealing plates [26/9/23, 5:26:04 am] Oli: LOL [26/9/23, 5:26:09 am] Sam: Actually no I remember the plates thing [26/9/23, 5:26:15 am] Sam: One plate from Brooks’s [26/9/23, 5:26:19 am] Sam: Iirc [26/9/23, 5:26:25 am] Oli: Yes 🤣 [26/9/23, 5:26:32 am] Sam: Dunno why I’m always pretending my memories are vaguer than they are [26/9/23, 5:26:38 am] Oli: Not sure that was the same thing. Maybe it was a precursor to it. [26/9/23, 5:26:48 am] Oli: Think that was the day before and the plate got carried to those parties. [26/9/23, 5:26:55 am] Sam: All I remember is that it was chronologically associated [26/9/23, 5:27:09 am] Sam: And as far as I can see there’s no other kind of logic that applies [26/9/23, 5:27:14 am] Oli: Yes I woke up and turned to my left or behind myself and I slam into someone else [26/9/23, 5:27:23 am] Oli: And get tangled as he has somehow put his arm over me [26/9/23, 5:27:29 am] Oli: And it is our Fred [26/9/23, 5:27:32 am] Sam: Freddie? Bald? [26/9/23, 5:27:32 am] Oli: Being straight [26/9/23, 5:27:40 am] Oli: He just had to sleep! 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 5:27:52 am] Sam: Oh ok - yeah I maybe get a slight sense that he maybe has a slight interest in you, but I have no clue really [26/9/23, 5:28:06 am] Sam: I certainly got an approbative air (why do I keep using this word today?) [26/9/23, 5:28:07 am] Oli: It is scary! [26/9/23, 5:28:15 am] Oli: It’s a good word! [26/9/23, 5:28:28 am] Sam: But couldn’t tell if he was ‘leaking’ his own interest or if he was trying to set me up or summat [26/9/23, 5:28:33 am] Oli: Someone at that party thought he was my plus one [26/9/23, 5:28:36 am] Oli: I couldn’t work it out [26/9/23, 5:28:39 am] Oli: Well technically he was [26/9/23, 5:28:40 am] Sam: Everything he said and did always seemed so oddly forced and voulu [26/9/23, 5:28:41 am] Oli: As he came with me [26/9/23, 5:28:43 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 5:28:46 am] Sam: So I sssumed the latter [26/9/23, 5:28:51 am] Sam: Good timing [26/9/23, 5:29:08 am] Oli: LOL. Yes he liked you I thought. [26/9/23, 5:29:10 am] Sam: I think you saw him in the street, or vice versa [26/9/23, 5:29:13 am] Oli: Maybe still does. [26/9/23, 5:29:16 am] Oli: Yes! [26/9/23, 5:29:23 am] Sam: Not that the street saw him in you [26/9/23, 5:29:23 am] Oli: Not sure what he was doing. Maybe cruising… [26/9/23, 5:29:26 am] Sam: Or you in him [26/9/23, 5:29:28 am] Sam: God [26/9/23, 5:29:32 am] Sam: Cottaging [26/9/23, 5:29:41 am] Sam: Got lost looking for Clapham Common [26/9/23, 5:30:06 am] Oli: Yes he pretended to be surprised that morning. [26/9/23, 5:30:17 am] Oli: Not surprised as such but tried to make out that it was normal! [26/9/23, 5:30:31 am] Sam: As he sat there with his thermos and his deerstalker [26/9/23, 5:30:41 am] Sam: And camping chair [26/9/23, 5:30:49 am] Sam: And chamber pot [26/9/23, 5:30:56 am] Sam: And … ok I’m out of ideas [26/9/23, 5:31:06 am] Oli: Yes well he was just being a pouf! [26/9/23, 5:31:12 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 5:31:26 am] Oli: I don’t know if he is gay maybe it’s just a camp act like Italian men. [26/9/23, 5:31:27 am] Sam: That sounds like some BDSM shit [26/9/23, 5:31:31 am] Sam: Not my cup of tea [26/9/23, 5:31:32 am] Oli: But it seems to be the picture he paints. [26/9/23, 5:31:35 am] Sam: I’m a sofa [26/9/23, 5:31:40 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 5:31:46 am] Oli: LOL I hadn’t imagined that! [26/9/23, 5:31:49 am] Oli: Maybe he likes that… [26/9/23, 5:31:55 am] Oli: That would be hilarious [26/9/23, 5:31:56 am] Sam: Could be like my friend Mikhail at school [26/9/23, 5:32:11 am] Oli: Oh I see what you mean [26/9/23, 5:32:13 am] Sam: (He was mostly English and part Bangladeshi so fuck knows why he was called Mikhail) [26/9/23, 5:32:13 am] Oli: Footstall [26/9/23, 5:32:14 am] Oli: Haha [26/9/23, 5:32:35 am] Sam: He was always very camp and it was a running joke (verging on not really a joke) that he was obviously gay [26/9/23, 5:32:39 am] Sam: Turns out he wasn’t [26/9/23, 5:32:49 am] Sam: At least not yet, and it’s been a long time to test, haha [26/9/23, 5:32:58 am] Sam: Just a Camp Straight™️ [26/9/23, 5:33:14 am] Oli: Like Fred [26/9/23, 5:33:19 am] Oli: Tm [26/9/23, 5:33:30 am] Sam: One time he managed to say something very loudly about “that’s why you shouldn’t wear lederhosen to a bar mitzvah” just when the classroom dropped quiet [26/9/23, 5:33:38 am] Sam: Dropped quiet? Whatever the phrase is [26/9/23, 5:33:43 am] Sam: Ah good times [26/9/23, 5:33:50 am] Oli: Would be a fun outfit! [26/9/23, 5:33:58 am] Oli: A fun outfit for the occasion rather [26/9/23, 5:34:15 am] Sam: Haha well I think the upshot was that he’d done it [26/9/23, 5:34:19 am] Sam: Sadly I don’t recall the story [26/9/23, 5:34:25 am] Sam: Also had another straight friend [26/9/23, 5:34:29 am] Sam: Actually very very much like Fred [26/9/23, 5:34:36 am] Sam: Tom DaCosta [26/9/23, 5:34:40 am] Sam: Thomus [26/9/23, 5:34:50 am] Sam: Spelling presumably inspired by hummus [26/9/23, 5:34:55 am] Oli: Ah that is a Sephardic Jewish name [26/9/23, 5:34:59 am] Oli: Or can be [26/9/23, 5:35:03 am] Sam: Who always had a weird and very Freddie-reminiscent interest in me alone [26/9/23, 5:35:15 am] Sam: But never gayed up in the end [26/9/23, 5:35:23 am] Sam: Wrote songs for me and stuff, very strange [26/9/23, 5:35:29 am] Oli: Like Fred [26/9/23, 5:35:31 am] Sam: Lived on Hill St just around the corner [26/9/23, 5:35:39 am] Oli: You pick them! [26/9/23, 5:35:41 am] Sam: Dad definitely did something fucking dodgy [26/9/23, 5:36:02 am] Sam: Had a Rhodesian ridgeback that once tore another friend’s chihuahua to pieces while he was over for dinner [26/9/23, 5:36:14 am] Sam: Fucking London schools [26/9/23, 5:36:13 am] Oli: He said you were ‘cute’ on a call a week ago or so lol [26/9/23, 5:36:18 am] Oli: Not sure what context [26/9/23, 5:36:26 am] Oli: Or Rhodesian! [26/9/23, 5:36:38 am] Sam: Oh that hadn’t even crossed my mind [26/9/23, 5:36:47 am] Oli: Scary! [26/9/23, 5:37:00 am] Oli: I like dogs but not those awful ones. [26/9/23, 5:37:17 am] Sam: I think he’s kinda hot and I evidently maybe have some slight crush because that made my heart go kinda soft (I’ve never had _romantic_ feelings for rredddie so maybe it’s just the dehydration) [26/9/23, 5:37:31 am] Sam: Or the fact that I’m sitting folded over at 90deg [26/9/23, 5:37:36 am] Sam: Prob not good for my heart [26/9/23, 5:37:39 am] Oli: Folded? [26/9/23, 5:37:50 am] Oli: Oh for one moment I thought your thermostat was at 90 [26/9/23, 5:38:19 am] Oli: Yes I imagine just sitting [26/9/23, 5:38:25 am] Oli: Can picture it ‎[26/9/23, 5:40:48 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[26/9/23, 5:40:58 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 5:41:10 am] Oli: LOL [26/9/23, 5:41:17 am] Sam: Every angle makes it look either totally normal or even more freakish than it is [26/9/23, 5:41:23 am] Oli: That’s a handy way to sit [26/9/23, 5:41:43 am] Oli: With the hair product! ‎[26/9/23, 5:41:49 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [26/9/23, 5:41:55 am] Oli: This is very funny. [26/9/23, 5:41:56 am] Sam: Decided video would be easier [26/9/23, 5:42:00 am] Sam: Haha [26/9/23, 5:42:00 am] Oli: Very flexible. [26/9/23, 5:42:08 am] Sam: Ah yes [26/9/23, 5:42:16 am] Sam: It has been commented upon [26/9/23, 5:42:22 am] Sam: Probably enough said [26/9/23, 5:42:27 am] Sam: Weirdly enough I’m terrible at yoga [26/9/23, 5:42:33 am] Sam: Literally no clue why [26/9/23, 5:42:47 am] Sam: Maybe it’s more the balancing than the flexing [26/9/23, 5:43:00 am] Oli: I understand what you are doing with your posture [26/9/23, 5:43:02 am] Sam: There’s a balance-y, staying-stable-y kinda aspect to yoga I feel [26/9/23, 5:43:10 am] Oli: I think! [26/9/23, 5:43:22 am] Oli: Yes [26/9/23, 5:43:31 am] Oli: Knees behind arms [26/9/23, 5:43:39 am] Oli: Step helping to make it look weirder [26/9/23, 5:44:03 am] Oli: This is hilarious. It looks unreal! [26/9/23, 5:44:23 am] Oli: Yes I haven’t tried in a long time either [26/9/23, 5:44:34 am] Sam: Wait what do you mean by knees behind arms [26/9/23, 5:44:46 am] Sam: I’m not sure thats right but my brain is prob a bit slow [26/9/23, 5:44:53 am] Sam: Wait I’ll take another video [26/9/23, 5:44:57 am] Oli: Oh I thought you had your knees positioned behind your arms [26/9/23, 5:45:05 am] Oli: Or maybe when you leant forward [26/9/23, 5:45:10 am] Sam: Also, step as opposed to what? A chair? Or a flat surface? [26/9/23, 5:45:16 am] Oli: Yes here [26/9/23, 5:45:24 am] Oli: Not sure if that is permanent or you leaning [26/9/23, 5:45:25 am] Sam: I am just quite freakishly flexible, there’s no trick [26/9/23, 5:45:40 am] Sam: But I may not be following [26/9/23, 5:45:41 am] Oli: Looks like you are sitting on a step or raised platform [26/9/23, 5:45:51 am] Oli: I can do the same! [26/9/23, 5:45:52 am] Sam: Permanent? [26/9/23, 5:45:56 am] Oli: But trying to explain it in my mind [26/9/23, 5:45:57 am] Sam: I’m not permanently folded, haha [26/9/23, 5:46:01 am] Oli: LOL [26/9/23, 5:46:03 am] Oli: The posture [26/9/23, 5:46:11 am] Sam: Wait I’m lost [26/9/23, 5:46:12 am] Sam: lol [26/9/23, 5:46:16 am] Oli: Haha yes I am talking gibberish about this wonderfully hilarious posture [26/9/23, 5:46:23 am] Sam: You mean permanent that I can do it [26/9/23, 5:46:26 am] Oli: This is brilliant [26/9/23, 5:46:33 am] Sam: Or permanent in a loose sense, like, can I sit this way for ages [26/9/23, 5:46:35 am] Oli: Sorry the posture is ‘permanent’ insofar as it’s how you’re sitting [26/9/23, 5:46:37 am] Oli: Yea [26/9/23, 5:46:39 am] Oli: Yes [26/9/23, 5:46:42 am] Sam: Oh yeah I can and do [26/9/23, 5:46:42 am] Oli: Sorry 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 5:46:47 am] Sam: For some reason it’s quite comfortable [26/9/23, 5:46:54 am] Sam: I think there’s quite low strain [26/9/23, 5:47:00 am] Sam: Or evenly distributed strain or sth likenthat [26/9/23, 5:47:06 am] Sam: Which would stand to reason I guess [26/9/23, 5:47:10 am] Sam: Not holding anything erect [26/9/23, 5:47:17 am] Sam: Sorry, slightly inopportune wording [26/9/23, 5:47:19 am] Sam: lol [26/9/23, 5:47:32 am] Sam: Not lifting up my back etc [26/9/23, 5:47:47 am] Oli: I think I have done things like that before sitting wise. [26/9/23, 5:47:58 am] Oli: I usually just sit on a bed. I don’t like chairs. [26/9/23, 5:48:09 am] Oli: For focusing/working on things. [26/9/23, 5:48:16 am] Sam: Ah yeah likewise - well, I need a sofa [26/9/23, 5:48:19 am] Sam: Or bed, yeah [26/9/23, 5:48:32 am] Sam: I’m more of a liar (sic) than a sitter [26/9/23, 5:48:44 am] Oli: As in lie down and use computer. Oddly. People seem to think you need to sit upright at a desk! [26/9/23, 5:48:54 am] Oli: I try to make myself sit at a desk out of guilt lol but can never do it. [26/9/23, 5:48:58 am] Sam: Yeah, I know - Damien can attest to that [26/9/23, 5:49:02 am] Sam: I guess basically I’m a slouched [26/9/23, 5:49:05 am] Sam: Sloucher [26/9/23, 5:49:12 am] Sam: Slouching toward Bethlehem etc [26/9/23, 5:49:16 am] Oli: I prefer it too. [26/9/23, 5:49:29 am] Sam: So either slightly erect slouching on a sofa or entirely recumbent slouching on a bed [26/9/23, 5:49:46 am] Sam: I’m not purposely saying erect lots [26/9/23, 5:49:55 am] Sam: In fact erect is probably the least erotic word [26/9/23, 5:49:58 am] Sam: Possibly anti-erotic [26/9/23, 5:50:37 am] Oli: Yes I like these too. I can think clearly at least like that rather than at a desk, oddly [26/9/23, 5:50:40 am] Sam: (Is there some connection between sex and conversation? I’ve just realised eros sounds oddly similar to erotao) [26/9/23, 5:50:48 am] Oli: Thinking about it this makes sense. [26/9/23, 5:50:56 am] Sam: Yeah, I can’t stand sitting [26/9/23, 5:51:08 am] Oli: Maybe a sexual act is a conversation of sorts [26/9/23, 5:51:36 am] Oli: I wonder [26/9/23, 5:51:54 am] Oli: Not knowingly but there will be some overlap. Not sure how significant it soz [26/9/23, 5:51:58 am] Oli: It is* [26/9/23, 5:52:00 am] Sam: This has got too abstract for 5am Sam haha [26/9/23, 5:52:18 am] Oli: I am not sure why my sleep schedule is always messed up either [26/9/23, 5:52:25 am] Sam: I do think the difference between good sex and bad sex feels vaguely psychologically/philosophically interesting [26/9/23, 5:52:35 am] Sam: Bataille’s book Eroticism I highly recommend [26/9/23, 5:52:51 am] Sam: Think I did to Fred as well [26/9/23, 5:53:05 am] Sam: Wait did you say he was still saying something nice about me? I’m very surprised [26/9/23, 5:53:09 am] Sam: I didn’t really hold back [26/9/23, 5:53:15 am] Sam: I didn’t really _ever_ hold back [26/9/23, 5:53:29 am] Sam: I described him as a veal calf to his not-face [26/9/23, 5:53:37 am] Sam: His little vealy face [26/9/23, 5:53:42 am] Oli: Well I asked him had he spoken to you recently. He said no but you were ‘cute’ in your actions lol [26/9/23, 5:53:51 am] Sam: I, uh…. [26/9/23, 5:53:57 am] Sam: Certainly wouldn’t say I was cute [26/9/23, 5:54:02 am] Sam: Let me find where I left off [26/9/23, 5:54:13 am] Oli: He was quite confused 🤣 ‎[26/9/23, 5:54:15 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 5:54:41 am] Sam: Think my final message was somewhat unambiguous and notably un-cute in my estimation [26/9/23, 5:54:47 am] Oli: Oh he sent me this I think! [26/9/23, 5:54:51 am] Sam: Oh weird it just glitched and the sun suddenly came up in one second [26/9/23, 5:54:53 am] Oli: That must’ve been some months ago [26/9/23, 5:54:57 am] Sam: Oh wait it didn’t [26/9/23, 5:55:03 am] Sam: Why the fuck did it just get brighter in here [26/9/23, 5:55:04 am] Sam: Weird [26/9/23, 5:55:13 am] Oli: I was going to say… [26/9/23, 5:55:14 am] Sam: Yup! Haven’t spoken since [26/9/23, 5:55:15 am] Oli: No sun! [26/9/23, 5:55:27 am] Oli: I had a FaceTime with him last week I think [26/9/23, 5:55:31 am] Oli: He kept talking nonsense [26/9/23, 5:55:33 am] Oli: Pestering [26/9/23, 5:55:36 am] Oli: About gays [26/9/23, 5:55:39 am] Oli: 🤣 [26/9/23, 5:55:48 am] Sam: Like I said [26/9/23, 5:55:50 am] Sam: Like Slape [26/9/23, 5:55:56 am] Sam: Desperately seeking nothing in particular [26/9/23, 5:56:12 am] Sam: Like a dog chasing a gay car [26/9/23, 5:56:25 am] Sam: Doesn’t know what he’ll do with it if he gets it [26/9/23, 5:56:35 am] Oli: Yes! Good point [26/9/23, 5:56:37 am] Sam: Walking around in the closet like Pig with a crisp bag [26/9/23, 5:56:46 am] Oli: He was asking me questions like where can I take him etc. [26/9/23, 5:57:00 am] Oli: And what he can do lol [26/9/23, 5:57:09 am] Oli: Not in gay way but probably thinking it [26/9/23, 5:57:14 am] Oli: 🤣 ‎[26/9/23, 5:57:24 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [26/9/23, 5:57:26 am] Oli: He just wanted to come up here. Well, like I said to Slape… [26/9/23, 5:57:32 am] Oli: I don’t control it! [26/9/23, 5:57:43 am] Oli: Is this now?! [26/9/23, 5:57:49 am] Sam: Nah a week or so ago [26/9/23, 5:57:54 am] Oli: Wtf [26/9/23, 5:57:56 am] Oli: LOL [26/9/23, 5:58:00 am] Sam: Freddie with his head in the closet [26/9/23, 5:58:13 am] Oli: Yes! [26/9/23, 5:58:16 am] Sam: Closet deeper than fucking Narnia [26/9/23, 5:58:24 am] Oli: Freddie as a cat [26/9/23, 5:58:26 am] Oli: LOL [26/9/23, 5:58:36 am] Sam: Exactly [26/9/23, 5:58:50 am] Oli: He said his brother thought he was a pouf. [26/9/23, 5:58:57 am] Oli: Or not exactly that but made hints. [26/9/23, 5:59:00 am] Oli: LOL. [26/9/23, 5:59:03 am] Oli: Don’t know why. [26/9/23, 5:59:09 am] Oli: He has a girlfriend so it must be fine! [26/9/23, 5:59:17 am] Sam: As an aside: is this girl blind, deaf, and/or dumb? Maybe some proprioception issues too? [26/9/23, 5:59:30 am] Oli: 🤣 [26/9/23, 5:59:36 am] Oli: That could be the case! [26/9/23, 5:59:36 am] Sam: Interoception for that matter [26/9/23, 5:59:43 am] Oli: No obvious blindness or deafness [26/9/23, 5:59:48 am] Sam: That his brother thought he Freddie was [26/9/23, 5:59:50 am] Sam: ? [26/9/23, 5:59:51 am] Oli: Maybe dumb but Italians have that. [26/9/23, 5:59:56 am] Oli: Yes! [26/9/23, 6:00:10 am] Sam: Ah well his brother has eyes then [26/9/23, 6:00:10 am] Oli: Haha yes I see the ambiguity here [26/9/23, 6:00:18 am] Sam: In spite of the sartorial evidence [26/9/23, 6:00:32 am] Sam: Increment [26/9/23, 6:00:37 am] Sam: Inedible [26/9/23, 6:00:41 am] Sam: Infredigle [26/9/23, 6:00:45 am] Sam: I give up [26/9/23, 6:00:51 am] Sam: He’s obviously gay [26/9/23, 6:01:00 am] Sam: Why is this so hard for him to understand? [26/9/23, 6:01:03 am] Sam: What is the mystery? [26/9/23, 6:01:08 am] Sam: There isn’t really a mystery [26/9/23, 6:01:13 am] Sam: He is attracted to boys [26/9/23, 6:01:14 am] Sam: He is gay [26/9/23, 6:01:15 am] Oli: I can’t work out why people nowadays find it hard to accept. [26/9/23, 6:01:31 am] Sam: Really a very simple set of diagnostic criteria (/criterion) [26/9/23, 6:01:42 am] Sam: Susceptible of little clinical variation [26/9/23, 6:01:59 am] Sam: Well, differential diagnosis would be bisexuality [26/9/23, 6:02:11 am] Sam: But I don’t think there’s much evidence of that [26/9/23, 6:02:32 am] Sam: He has a girlfriend and he seems interested in little other than fagging around and putting on plays [26/9/23, 6:02:39 am] Sam: Well, the play’s the thing [26/9/23, 6:02:53 am] Oli: Fagging around 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 6:03:12 am] Sam: Anyway I am still slightly attracted to him and I wish I weren’t vaguely repelled by him too [26/9/23, 6:03:32 am] Oli: Attracted and repelled! [26/9/23, 6:03:40 am] Sam: Odi et amo [26/9/23, 6:03:53 am] Sam: Quare sed faciis [26/9/23, 6:03:57 am] Sam: Nescio [26/9/23, 6:04:03 am] Sam: Sed fiery dementia [26/9/23, 6:04:11 am] Sam: Et excruciate [26/9/23, 6:04:14 am] Sam: I give up [26/9/23, 6:04:17 am] Sam: Excrucior [26/9/23, 6:04:20 am] Oli: He will be a hard one to crack I think. [26/9/23, 6:04:23 am] Oli: A tough cookie! [26/9/23, 6:04:28 am] Sam: Fiery sentiment [26/9/23, 6:04:32 am] Sam: Goddammit [26/9/23, 6:04:46 am] Sam: A soggy biscuit more like [26/9/23, 6:05:04 am] Sam: Crack how? [26/9/23, 6:05:06 am] Sam: Fuck? [26/9/23, 6:05:09 am] Oli: You could ambush him if he comes up to Scotland heee [26/9/23, 6:05:09 am] Sam: Interview? [26/9/23, 6:05:11 am] Oli: Here* [26/9/23, 6:05:13 am] Oli: LOL [26/9/23, 6:05:25 am] Sam: I don’t have a gun [26/9/23, 6:05:31 am] Oli: Oh yes sort of crack as a gay. As in convince him he’s gay! [26/9/23, 6:05:46 am] Oli: But also this. In the above context [26/9/23, 6:05:54 am] Sam: He knows he’s fat, he just doesn’t realise it yet [26/9/23, 6:05:57 am] Sam: GAY [26/9/23, 6:06:11 am] Sam: GODDAMMIT WHY IS THIS THE PERENNIAL AUTOCORRECT ERROR ‎[26/9/23, 6:06:30 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:06:43 am] Sam: God that first message breaks my heart [26/9/23, 6:06:57 am] Sam: Aaaaaargh ok moving on [26/9/23, 6:07:06 am] Oli: Fat! My god it did it then! [26/9/23, 6:07:07 am] Sam: Confer te alio [26/9/23, 6:07:15 am] Sam: It always does! [26/9/23, 6:07:17 am] Oli: The falling in like! ‎[26/9/23, 6:07:32 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:07:55 am] Sam: Yup [26/9/23, 6:08:01 am] Sam: 😬 [26/9/23, 6:08:12 am] Oli: ‘I think they are straight’ [26/9/23, 6:08:18 am] Oli: Unlike him! ‎[26/9/23, 6:08:25 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:08:34 am] Sam: I find it quite peaceful in a way [26/9/23, 6:09:14 am] Sam: I wish my heroin overdose had come after Louis rather than slightly before, because then I could make the trite point that my life has sorta ended and run on borrowed time since [26/9/23, 6:09:39 am] Sam: Annoyingly it came slightly before, which plays merry hell with my weird metaphors / whatever on earth goes on in my head [26/9/23, 6:09:43 am] Sam: Ok water time [26/9/23, 6:09:48 am] Oli: This is wonderfully emotional to read. [26/9/23, 6:10:10 am] Sam: One bad thing about meth is that it seems to entirely suppress my natural thirst instinct if dehydrated, or hunger if underfed [26/9/23, 6:10:17 am] Sam: But hunger I can feel in my stomach eventually [26/9/23, 6:10:24 am] Sam: Thirst one just loses one’s mind [26/9/23, 6:10:32 am] Sam: Haha thank you [26/9/23, 6:10:34 am] Oli: Yes I wondered about other drugs [26/9/23, 6:10:36 am] Sam: I think Freddie said the same [26/9/23, 6:10:40 am] Sam: Not sure what to make of it haha [26/9/23, 6:10:48 am] Oli: Maybe it’s a gay thing to say [26/9/23, 6:10:49 am] Oli: LOL [26/9/23, 6:11:00 am] Oli: Maybe just people with emotions [26/9/23, 6:11:16 am] Oli: I suppose if one didn’t find that nice one would be a psycho? Or sociopaths [26/9/23, 6:11:20 am] Oli: Sociopath? ‎[26/9/23, 6:11:21 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:11:41 am] Sam: Or Kieran [26/9/23, 6:11:48 am] Sam: No that’s a bit redundant [26/9/23, 6:12:33 am] Sam: Nb cats go to Kieran because - for all his faults - he is very solicitous to the cats [26/9/23, 6:12:41 am] Sam: If only he could replicate that behaviour with humans [26/9/23, 6:12:46 am] Oli: Do you do the drugs because you are somewhere depressed? Like people do with alcohol? I wonder about myself with it. [26/9/23, 6:12:57 am] Sam: I certainly don’t feel like I do! [26/9/23, 6:13:02 am] Oli: The problem is that also in London drugs are everywhere and they become party things. [26/9/23, 6:13:09 am] Sam: If I’m depressed, it’s certainly not in a way that I’ve ever recognised as such [26/9/23, 6:13:11 am] Oli: Nor I but maybe it is the reason. [26/9/23, 6:13:13 am] Sam: I don’t feel sad most of the time [26/9/23, 6:13:26 am] Sam: I think depression becomes a bit mystical and unfalsifiable at this point [26/9/23, 6:13:30 am] Oli: I have never registered it either but maybe we want some uplift into a different aspect of the world. [26/9/23, 6:13:35 am] Sam: Sorta divorced from any actual meaning it ever originally had [26/9/23, 6:13:47 am] Sam: But maybe there’s some ‘sadness deep inside me’ [26/9/23, 6:14:05 am] Sam: I’m increasingly doubtful of the uninterrogated weird spatial metaphors of psychology though [26/9/23, 6:14:19 am] Oli: Yes I don’t know much about that either [26/9/23, 6:14:21 am] Sam: There’s a lot of talk for a _not very fucking much_ of evidence or understanding [26/9/23, 6:14:35 am] Sam: I guess my dad (representing the Freudian tradition) would say that it works [26/9/23, 6:14:41 am] Sam: And ultimately it does [26/9/23, 6:14:45 am] Oli: But saying this maybe there’s something in a lot of people which needs to be freed/unlocked and drugs help. [26/9/23, 6:14:46 am] Sam: It clearly does get some things right [26/9/23, 6:15:35 am] Sam: I’m sure I’ve told you my favourite story, the one about my dad predicting that toilet roll would go out of stock during the COVID panic buying phase, because hoarding is an anal retentive behaviour and anal retentives are (by virtue of the literal meaning) concerned about toilet roll [26/9/23, 6:16:16 am] Sam: So it gets some things right but … anyway ok back to the point, or at least popping one tangent off the stack to return to the previous probable tangent [26/9/23, 6:16:19 am] Sam: Or circle [26/9/23, 6:16:41 am] Sam: Why is it a fucking tangent? The tangent is the straight fucking line - I will never understand this [26/9/23, 6:16:54 am] Sam: Yes I think so, definitely [26/9/23, 6:17:06 am] Sam: Think my dad would say and has said the same [26/9/23, 6:17:19 am] Sam: The parental advice I got was: set and setting [26/9/23, 6:17:43 am] Sam: My mum obviously must say the same since psychiatrists are just drug dealers with white coats [26/9/23, 6:17:49 am] Sam: But anyway parents aside [26/9/23, 6:18:01 am] Sam: Yes I think clearly they serve some purpose [26/9/23, 6:18:16 am] Sam: For me I always felt it was pretty straightforwardly ‘drugs feel good’ [26/9/23, 6:18:35 am] Sam: And maybe there’s a corollary ‘I feel bad’, but except in exceptional circs I genuinely don’t recognise that [26/9/23, 6:19:08 am] Sam: (And, as above, I don’t know what the fuck ‘feel bad’ can ever mean if one is capable of simply not recognising it) [26/9/23, 6:19:20 am] Sam: If anything maybe I feel _bored_ sometimes [26/9/23, 6:19:23 am] Oli: Yes I find this. [26/9/23, 6:19:32 am] Oli: Ah yes that is similar to me [26/9/23, 6:19:42 am] Oli: Not sure if that’s another way of expressing a negative state. [26/9/23, 6:19:57 am] Oli: Or rather if that is a negative state [26/9/23, 6:19:59 am] Oli: Boredom [26/9/23, 6:20:15 am] Sam: I think there’s a connection with sadness [26/9/23, 6:20:19 am] Sam: Ennui or whatever [26/9/23, 6:20:39 am] Sam: Increasingly I feel quite mournful but not in a really _sad_ or despairing way [26/9/23, 6:20:43 am] Sam: In a sort of rueful way [26/9/23, 6:21:05 am] Sam: I think my life is over, or at any rate one life is over [26/9/23, 6:21:09 am] Oli: That is interesting [26/9/23, 6:21:15 am] Oli: I was going to express it like this [26/9/23, 6:21:20 am] Sam: But in a sense I quite like the feeling of living in a sort of hereafter [26/9/23, 6:21:31 am] Sam: I feel like the last year at least has been spent in that state [26/9/23, 6:21:51 am] Oli: I sometimes wonder is mine over before it even started 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 6:22:16 am] Oli: And think the only logical conclusion is that! [26/9/23, 6:22:18 am] Sam: It was: - before Louis (or actually a bit earlier in 2019 when what feels like my life began) - Louis/also a bit earlier - heroin - afterdays [26/9/23, 6:22:32 am] Oli: ‘One life’ is better way of looking at it [26/9/23, 6:23:01 am] Sam: YOLO at most [26/9/23, 6:23:19 am] Sam: Once is bloody good going [26/9/23, 6:23:30 am] Sam: For me, 2019 or thereabouts [26/9/23, 6:23:47 am] Sam: A sort of longue année around 2019 [26/9/23, 6:24:51 am] Oli: Interesting [26/9/23, 6:24:57 am] Sam: And honestly there is some kind of impregnable redoubt in my heart or emotional faculty or whatever you want to call it that is pretty much …. Louis, and that past and all that [26/9/23, 6:24:58 am] Oli: This was your life and now it’s changed [26/9/23, 6:25:19 am] Oli: ❤️ [26/9/23, 6:25:30 am] Sam: And that’s maybe why I really and truly don’t give a fuck about Damien’s shouting or Freddie’s absence or just about anything else that people expect might upset me [26/9/23, 6:25:37 am] Sam: Maybe [26/9/23, 6:25:40 am] Sam: I dunno really [26/9/23, 6:25:44 am] Sam: Anyway enough about me [26/9/23, 6:25:48 am] Oli: We live increasingly in a world without the ability to have a proper relationship with our emotions I think. [26/9/23, 6:25:58 am] Sam: I weirdly had a very nice conversation with our meth dealer Brendan about this [26/9/23, 6:26:09 am] Sam: Because his boyfriend of 9 years died about 5 years ago [26/9/23, 6:26:18 am] Sam: He’s obviously not got over it and I’m not sure he ever will [26/9/23, 6:26:20 am] Sam: Poor guy [26/9/23, 6:26:21 am] Oli: I’ve never met a gay drug dealer. [26/9/23, 6:26:27 am] Oli: But that’s a trivial point [26/9/23, 6:26:30 am] Oli: Oh dear [26/9/23, 6:26:50 am] Sam: And, while I wouldn’t say something so obscene to him obviously, I weirdly in some small way could identify with that feeling of being a widower [26/9/23, 6:26:54 am] Sam: What does Tennyson say [26/9/23, 6:26:59 am] Sam: Sorrow wilt thou live with me [26/9/23, 6:27:02 am] Sam: Something or other [26/9/23, 6:27:04 am] Sam: One mo ‎[26/9/23, 6:27:47 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[26/9/23, 6:28:41 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:29:10 am] Sam: Meth is different [26/9/23, 6:29:21 am] Sam: He was a policeman too! They both were! Madness! [26/9/23, 6:29:44 am] Sam: Sorta loosely like Breaking Bad or something (or not really but for some reason feels cryptomorphic) [26/9/23, 6:29:47 am] Oli: Well… a logical move! Police to drug dealing…. [26/9/23, 6:30:06 am] Sam: Yeah, very strange! [26/9/23, 6:30:11 am] Sam: But he seems to do well [26/9/23, 6:30:17 am] Sam: As I said to him once……. [26/9/23, 6:30:24 am] Oli: Surely this industry is lucrative! ‎[26/9/23, 6:31:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[26/9/23, 6:31:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:31:32 am] Oli: The teenagers [26/9/23, 6:31:39 am] Oli: Are these hookups wanting pot?! [26/9/23, 6:31:45 am] Oli: LOL what an awful drug I think [26/9/23, 6:31:46 am] Sam: No, Ryan and Ash, haha [26/9/23, 6:31:51 am] Sam: Wait one sec [26/9/23, 6:31:53 am] Oli: Ah ‎[26/9/23, 6:32:33 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:32:35 am] Oli: LOL [26/9/23, 6:32:47 am] Oli: Money bags. That’s funny. Dealers seem to always say that. [26/9/23, 6:32:51 am] Oli: And I think the same as you said [26/9/23, 6:33:12 am] Sam: Yeah I do wonder if it’s sorta buttering you up or something - some kind of cunning [26/9/23, 6:33:19 am] Sam: Goddammit I was meant to be sleazy [26/9/23, 6:33:21 am] Oli: My god what a wholesome relationship this seems [26/9/23, 6:33:29 am] Oli: Mine just say ‘how have you been?’ [26/9/23, 6:33:40 am] Oli: Sometimes a bit more chit chat but nothing like this [26/9/23, 6:33:48 am] Oli: Exciting [26/9/23, 6:33:57 am] Sam: I was gonna say: he was just getting the drugs for me! I was - weirdly enough - here at my aunt’s for the night, for some reason, I can’t remember exactly the logic involved in the deal [26/9/23, 6:34:11 am] Sam: He hasn’t touched the stuff since, as far as I know [26/9/23, 6:34:18 am] Sam: It was very stupid of me to give him it [26/9/23, 6:34:28 am] Sam: Can’t remember how much of the story you know [26/9/23, 6:34:35 am] Oli: I met him! [26/9/23, 6:34:38 am] Sam: I was categorically not sleazing on him [26/9/23, 6:34:42 am] Oli: Saw him smoking meth! [26/9/23, 6:34:44 am] Sam: No I meant the meth in particular [26/9/23, 6:34:50 am] Oli: I met him when I came round to yours and he was on it [26/9/23, 6:34:52 am] Sam: Oh right, shit, so you probably did! [26/9/23, 6:35:12 am] Sam: He’d purloined my meth that night when I was out at Primark [26/9/23, 6:35:19 am] Oli: Yes! [26/9/23, 6:35:27 am] Sam: So that was a particular night of meth smoking - not usual but not rare [26/9/23, 6:35:27 am] Oli: I think then you were Locke Doug [26/9/23, 6:35:32 am] Oli: Locked out* [26/9/23, 6:35:36 am] Sam: Later on at bond st I think it was every day more or less [26/9/23, 6:35:36 am] Oli: Locke Doug 🤣 [26/9/23, 6:35:42 am] Sam: Miraculously he hasn’t touched it since [26/9/23, 6:35:46 am] Oli: That was a mad one [26/9/23, 6:35:51 am] Oli: I remember it well it was nuts [26/9/23, 6:35:58 am] Sam: (I mean, I dunno with certainty, but he doesn’t have the money really) [26/9/23, 6:36:19 am] Sam: Certainly he says he hasn’t, and his current plan of life seems to make sense and exclude meth smoking [26/9/23, 6:36:22 am] Oli: It is embarrassing to spend so much on drugs [26/9/23, 6:36:28 am] Sam: But I was very lucky [26/9/23, 6:36:54 am] Oli: But my attitude sometimes is well that’s life. I sometimes, quite often this year, just want to stop thinking or/and go into a neutral state. ‎[26/9/23, 6:37:06 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:37:09 am] Oli: Though I do enjoy thoughts [26/9/23, 6:37:35 am] Sam: Ah yes the Zapffe approach [26/9/23, 6:37:50 am] Sam: I feel increasingly like a Thomas Bernhard type [26/9/23, 6:37:55 am] Sam: Timon of Athens [26/9/23, 6:37:59 am] Sam: Lear on the heath [26/9/23, 6:38:16 am] Oli: Yes these ideas are all funny ways of viewing the world but to my mind make sense [26/9/23, 6:38:17 am] Sam: Oh that reminds me I must tear my clothes off [26/9/23, 6:38:43 am] Oli: Interesting [26/9/23, 6:38:48 am] Oli: 🎉 [26/9/23, 6:38:49 am] Sam: I mean, I’m very lucky in the grand scheme of things [26/9/23, 6:38:53 am] Sam: In just about every sense [26/9/23, 6:39:13 am] Sam: Haha [26/9/23, 6:39:22 am] Sam: 🚶‍♂️ ‎[26/9/23, 6:39:37 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:39:50 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 6:39:52 am] Oli: Madness ‎[26/9/23, 6:40:03 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:40:13 am] Sam: God sorry that’s slightly rubbish [26/9/23, 6:40:24 am] Oli: It is nice light [26/9/23, 6:40:31 am] Sam: Wait one sec let me check the borgesian photo library of nudes [26/9/23, 6:40:36 am] Sam: The garden of forking nudes [26/9/23, 6:40:46 am] Oli: I like the body [26/9/23, 6:41:13 am] Sam: Thanks! My parents gave me it ages ago ‎[26/9/23, 6:41:22 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:41:23 am] Sam: Haha furry my mind had just gone [26/9/23, 6:41:27 am] Oli: Re hairs arooind [26/9/23, 6:41:30 am] Sam: Not furry [26/9/23, 6:41:32 am] Oli: Around [26/9/23, 6:41:46 am] Sam: Sorry I go into a weird state of, like, sexual non-responsiveness sometimes [26/9/23, 6:41:51 am] Sam: I think it’s dehydration [26/9/23, 6:41:54 am] Sam: Lemme have some water [26/9/23, 6:42:01 am] Oli: I live in that state [26/9/23, 6:42:05 am] Sam: I would comment on your nudes but it would be dishonest right now haha [26/9/23, 6:42:16 am] Oli: Well hardly Michelangelo paintings [26/9/23, 6:42:20 am] Sam: I swear to god this is so annoying [26/9/23, 6:42:25 am] Oli: Quite average probably for the scheme of things [26/9/23, 6:42:28 am] Sam: Actually maybe it’s vitamins [26/9/23, 6:42:32 am] Sam: Let me have a vitamin [26/9/23, 6:42:36 am] Sam: That often helps [26/9/23, 6:42:40 am] Oli: Though I just thought might as well given you’ve sent some 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 6:42:52 am] Oli: Or maybe me LOL [26/9/23, 6:42:59 am] Sam: No you look good I think! Everything feels quite average to me right now [26/9/23, 6:43:04 am] Sam: A sort of momentary anhedonia [26/9/23, 6:43:08 am] Sam: /anaesthesia [26/9/23, 6:43:39 am] Sam: /aneroticism (?) ‎[26/9/23, 6:43:48 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:43:51 am] Sam: Aaargh where is my water bottle [26/9/23, 6:43:58 am] Sam: Oh I prefer that photo for some reason [26/9/23, 6:44:00 am] Oli: Dehydration is bad [26/9/23, 6:44:03 am] Oli: Younger [26/9/23, 6:44:05 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [26/9/23, 6:44:05 am] Sam: Maybe the other ones were too blue [26/9/23, 6:44:14 am] Oli: Oh! [26/9/23, 6:44:16 am] Sam: Oh no I think it’s the blueness [26/9/23, 6:44:16 am] Oli: LOL [26/9/23, 6:44:28 am] Sam: Wait how young were you there [26/9/23, 6:44:32 am] Sam: Also nice dick [26/9/23, 6:44:40 am] Oli: 23 [26/9/23, 6:44:43 am] Oli: I am 25 now! [26/9/23, 6:44:45 am] Sam: How young are you now [26/9/23, 6:44:49 am] Sam: Ahh ok haha [26/9/23, 6:45:00 am] Sam: It occasionally strikes me as strange that I never ask this stuff [26/9/23, 6:45:08 am] Oli: Yes I seldom ask too ‎[26/9/23, 6:45:16 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:45:18 am] Sam: Whenever my family ask me about any of my friends I suddenly realise I can’t answer any of these phenomenally basic biographical questions ‎[26/9/23, 6:45:26 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:45:52 am] Oli: Think I was sending that in a jokey tone to someone [26/9/23, 6:45:55 am] Oli: Forget whom [26/9/23, 6:46:04 am] Sam: Haha these are very terrible photos - not in a you way but in a photography way [26/9/23, 6:46:16 am] Sam: The earlier one is better I think [26/9/23, 6:46:26 am] Sam: lol sorry my brain is gone, maybe I shouldn’t be doing photography criticism [26/9/23, 6:46:26 am] Oli: I agree [26/9/23, 6:46:34 am] Oli: No you are right really [26/9/23, 6:46:35 am] Sam: You should consider getting Freddie’s dad to take them [26/9/23, 6:46:41 am] Sam: No I am kidding [26/9/23, 6:46:42 am] Oli: I just take crap most of the time [26/9/23, 6:46:47 am] Sam: No I was being droll [26/9/23, 6:47:01 am] Oli: Must see if more I have some library too [26/9/23, 6:47:04 am] Sam: I mean obv nudes do not need to be masterpieces of photography lol [26/9/23, 6:47:05 am] Oli: Lol I like droll [26/9/23, 6:47:28 am] Oli: Nudes are odd things [26/9/23, 6:47:34 am] Sam: Trying to think of the best and worst photography I’ve ever got in nudes [26/9/23, 6:47:59 am] Sam: Yeah there’s something very vulnerable about them [26/9/23, 6:48:16 am] Sam: I never have the heart even to blank people based on nudes, even friend [26/9/23, 6:48:21 am] Sam: Even on Grindr * [26/9/23, 6:48:34 am] Oli: I would feel guilty about doing it too [26/9/23, 6:48:44 am] Oli: Oh [26/9/23, 6:48:45 am] Oli: Haha [26/9/23, 6:48:45 am] Sam: I will religiously and scrupulously continue the conversation until it reaches a distinct and non-obvious point to drop off [26/9/23, 6:49:01 am] Sam: Haha [26/9/23, 6:50:19 am] Sam: No but seriously you have a nice body (and fixtures and fittings) [26/9/23, 6:50:29 am] Sam: 😊 ‎[26/9/23, 6:50:30 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:50:36 am] Oli: Wondered where I put them [26/9/23, 6:50:46 am] Sam: Sorry if I seemed disconcertingly neutral [26/9/23, 6:50:54 am] Oli: I am like that too [26/9/23, 6:50:56 am] Oli: I think [26/9/23, 6:50:59 am] Sam: I somehow vaguely suspect you don’t mind [26/9/23, 6:51:11 am] Sam: Haha no I hate the nude feedback ritual [26/9/23, 6:51:11 am] Oli: LOL yes I am similar I think [26/9/23, 6:51:17 am] Sam: Some people are naturals [26/9/23, 6:51:42 am] Sam: “Wow, I’d love to suck on your dick, hot, what a … [god I can’t even do it]” ‎[26/9/23, 6:51:44 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:51:52 am] Oli: Yes I hate that [26/9/23, 6:52:15 am] Sam: Practically slavering and panting from the moment the first pixel loads [26/9/23, 6:52:26 am] Sam: Like Mormons or something [26/9/23, 6:52:33 am] Sam: I envy that but I can’t do it [26/9/23, 6:52:58 am] Sam: Actually I dated a guy who was just super unbelievably chilled about sex and I thought it was a very underratedly neat quality to have [26/9/23, 6:53:14 am] Sam: Both from a ‘for me’ perspective and probably also a ‘for himself’ perspective ‎[26/9/23, 6:53:18 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:53:27 am] Oli: Yes! [26/9/23, 6:53:47 am] Oli: People are too slavering as you say [26/9/23, 6:53:57 am] Sam: We’re all on a spectrum but with him it was totally and utterly like making tea (in a good way, not a neuter or joyless or unsacred way or however else that could be read) [26/9/23, 6:54:03 am] Sam: Oh no I meant to put him on the slavering end [26/9/23, 6:54:08 am] Sam: As opposed to the neurotic end [26/9/23, 6:54:15 am] Sam: But with him it wasn’t in a gross slavering way [26/9/23, 6:54:26 am] Sam: Not weird sed talk or watt ever [26/9/23, 6:54:49 am] Sam: Which I sometimes feel is the same problem as neurosis, and maybe originates from some kind of Freudian reaction formation to neurosis or something [26/9/23, 6:54:53 am] Sam: Certainly feels that way at least [26/9/23, 6:55:01 am] Sam: Voulu, not vécu [26/9/23, 6:55:16 am] Sam: Not enough nude 😈 [26/9/23, 6:55:32 am] Sam: Haha lemme find my ogotographically finest nude [26/9/23, 6:55:32 am] Oli: I suspect ‎[26/9/23, 6:56:13 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [26/9/23, 6:57:30 am] Sam: Colour intensity looks edited or like a filter but for some reason it was just a very luminous and colourful scene [26/9/23, 6:57:45 am] Sam: God sorry haha [26/9/23, 6:57:51 am] Oli: This is a nice one! ‎[26/9/23, 6:59:20 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 6:59:24 am] Oli: I like the pace of this [26/9/23, 6:59:27 am] Oli: Haha ‎[26/9/23, 7:00:05 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[26/9/23, 7:00:39 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 7:01:43 am] Oli: No it is an interesting thought! [26/9/23, 7:04:17 am] Sam: Haha is this a joke one? I mean, hot, but has a jokey air somehow [26/9/23, 7:04:26 am] Sam: Like a 70s porn magazine vibe [26/9/23, 7:04:43 am] Oli: I am not quite sure on what went through my head at the time! I think a slightly comical air! [26/9/23, 7:04:53 am] Oli: Yes I might’ve been trying to ape that 🤣 [26/9/23, 7:05:15 am] Sam: God I don’t know how I manage to put my foot in my mouth so badly and so often lol [26/9/23, 7:05:23 am] Sam: Not literally!!!! [26/9/23, 7:05:26 am] Oli: You didn’t here haha [26/9/23, 7:05:31 am] Sam: I’m not … ok I’m not going to name names [26/9/23, 7:05:52 am] Sam: Actually I probably could, lol, but it would be revolting and I have never tested that ability [26/9/23, 7:05:52 am] Oli: Because I was creating them inspired by some weird sort of photoshoot I’d seen [26/9/23, 7:05:59 am] Oli: And I think that was probably 80s [26/9/23, 7:06:01 am] Oli: 🤣 [26/9/23, 7:06:27 am] Sam: Wait let me see if I can still wrap my legs around my head which is probably a neater version of the same trick [26/9/23, 7:06:31 am] Oli: With the y front pants [26/9/23, 7:06:35 am] Sam: God why am I going into yoga mode [26/9/23, 7:06:48 am] Oli: Not sure if I can do that interesting [26/9/23, 7:06:49 am] Sam: Haha it’s good [26/9/23, 7:07:38 am] Sam: Wait so are you a top or a bottom? (Obv I know they aren’t super well defined categories but often it’s more or less one or the other) [26/9/23, 7:07:59 am] Sam: Pretty useless skill tbf [26/9/23, 7:08:21 am] Sam: And, contrary to what porn videos would suggest, not really the most convenient way of 🍆 etc etc [26/9/23, 7:08:48 am] Sam: But I guess - which is so often the theme with porn - it looks the best on camera and so it comes to dominate people’s minds [26/9/23, 7:09:07 am] Oli: More top usually. In my own head at least. Easier to do top and prefer it. I can bottom and have done a lot but usually that never does anything for me (though I know people like it). I’ve enjoyed it sometimes lol but I have to work up to the person. [26/9/23, 7:09:56 am] Oli: My mad cousin is a top normally which annoys 🤣 [26/9/23, 7:10:04 am] Oli: Yes this sounds totally abnormal. [26/9/23, 7:10:13 am] Oli: I am laughing. [26/9/23, 7:10:30 am] Sam: Oh it never does anything for me in that sense either. I dunno if sex does at all. I still do it but … I mean, some people claim to get literal physical pleasure from bottoming, and I guess I have no reason to doubt them but somehow (knowing how capable people are of dishonesty, even shockingly deep and extensive and almost unwitting dishonesty) I do doubt them. [26/9/23, 7:10:49 am] Oli: Yes I never understood the physical pleasure claim either! [26/9/23, 7:11:10 am] Sam: I think I said to Alex Camm once (when debating fisting etc) that it’s the gratification of projecting yourself in a certain position, seeing yourself in a certain position [26/9/23, 7:11:25 am] Oli: Perhaps it’s a ‘I want to believe this so I will’ case re pleasure received [26/9/23, 7:11:30 am] Sam: Or that was my vague sense of the appeal of bottoming to most people I’ve spoken to [26/9/23, 7:11:34 am] Oli: Or maybe the pleasure is all in the thought of the act? [26/9/23, 7:11:38 am] Sam: Yeah I tend to think so [26/9/23, 7:11:38 am] Oli: I wonder about it! [26/9/23, 7:11:54 am] Sam: It makes very little evolutionary sense to me that we would derive any pleasure from this [26/9/23, 7:11:57 am] Oli: Damien must enjoy it [26/9/23, 7:12:23 am] Sam: I think some people maybe … well, describing or undnersranding one@: own feelings is fucking hard at the best of times [26/9/23, 7:12:27 am] Oli: Quite! No sense at all! [26/9/23, 7:12:42 am] Sam: Yes he certainly seems to get some very base satisfaction out of it [26/9/23, 7:12:52 am] Sam: Hard for me to believe that’s some elaborate psychological thing [26/9/23, 7:12:59 am] Sam: Seems to be sating an appetite [26/9/23, 7:13:06 am] Sam: Who knows [26/9/23, 7:13:13 am] Sam: I dunno if he’s always bottoming [26/9/23, 7:13:19 am] Sam: Frankly I don’t want to know [26/9/23, 7:13:47 am] Sam: He does have a nice dick (as maybe you know, god knows) but somehow I just never see him that way [26/9/23, 7:13:53 am] Sam: Except lately as mentioned [26/9/23, 7:14:14 am] Sam: But the reality is that I think my brain is quite good at just excluding people [26/9/23, 7:14:35 am] Oli: Only properly seen bottom. Have seen the dick when both pissing but never actually looked at it properly [26/9/23, 7:14:39 am] Sam: And a _nice_ dick, imo, which is distinct from a merely big dick [26/9/23, 7:14:50 am] Oli: Oh no [26/9/23, 7:14:52 am] Sam: Haha this is such an academic-sounding conversation [26/9/23, 7:14:56 am] Oli: I have seen his didk [26/9/23, 7:14:59 am] Oli: Have a photo of it [26/9/23, 7:15:03 am] Oli: Mr Murphy sent them round [26/9/23, 7:15:08 am] Sam: I mean I’ve been drunk I think when we had sex [26/9/23, 7:15:08 am] Oli: I actually have lots of photos of him [26/9/23, 7:15:11 am] Oli: As odd as that sounds [26/9/23, 7:15:28 am] Oli: Yes that is what happens with him [26/9/23, 7:15:29 am] Sam: I’d be interested to see actually - you can ask him, I’ve seen his dick but I’m quite interested to see photos [26/9/23, 7:15:30 am] Oli: Seems to be [26/9/23, 7:15:31 am] Oli: Lol [26/9/23, 7:15:40 am] Sam: Not sure if it was just the one time [26/9/23, 7:15:51 am] Oli: They were ones Murphy took of him essentially [26/9/23, 7:15:51 am] Sam: Feels like a few times but hard to tell because (if so) all very very similar [26/9/23, 7:15:53 am] Oli: In shower etc [26/9/23, 7:15:56 am] Oli: All seedy [26/9/23, 7:15:57 am] Sam: Oh god [26/9/23, 7:16:04 am] Sam: With Damien’s knowledge [26/9/23, 7:16:13 am] Oli: Yes! [26/9/23, 7:16:42 am] Sam: There is no way Eoghain Murphy can sneak into a room without one noticing [26/9/23, 7:16:50 am] Oli: Ghastly man! [26/9/23, 7:16:52 am] Sam: Eldritch, as Raz would say [26/9/23, 7:16:54 am] Oli: I blocked him [26/9/23, 7:17:09 am] Oli: He is just a sanctimonious hypocritical bore [26/9/23, 7:17:11 am] Oli: Oxygen thief [26/9/23, 7:17:19 am] Sam: To be fair to eoghain - I do believe in being scrupulously fair - he’s only ever been very sweet and kindly to me [26/9/23, 7:17:29 am] Sam: He evidently is not attracted to me [26/9/23, 7:17:34 am] Oli: Yes you haven’t seen the other sides [26/9/23, 7:17:38 am] Sam: This is my superpower [26/9/23, 7:17:40 am] Oli: Or maybe it’s an ingratiation offensive [26/9/23, 7:17:49 am] Sam: Being selectively unattractive [26/9/23, 7:18:01 am] Sam: Fucking long one then!! [26/9/23, 7:18:03 am] Sam: Haha [26/9/23, 7:18:18 am] Sam: Maybe he just figures I’ll recognise the smell of GHB [26/9/23, 7:18:28 am] Sam: DO YOU KNOW DON LEVETT? [26/9/23, 7:18:32 am] Sam: God sorry caps lock [26/9/23, 7:18:36 am] Sam: That sounded quite aggressive [26/9/23, 7:18:40 am] Oli: No but think we’ve spoken about him before! [26/9/23, 7:18:55 am] Oli: The muffin man [26/9/23, 7:19:11 am] Sam: The story about him having to leave and then getting intoxicated and passing out or sth like that on the way home? [26/9/23, 7:19:27 am] Oli: Oh don’t know that! [26/9/23, 7:19:34 am] Sam: lq [26/9/23, 7:20:08 am] Sam: Yeah eoghain had evidently spiked his drink (jesus, eoghain, have you no standards?) [26/9/23, 7:20:32 am] Sam: Did I also tell you about the time I helped Kieran rape someone [26/9/23, 7:20:39 am] Sam: Not my proudest moment [26/9/23, 7:20:43 am] Oli: Haha no! [26/9/23, 7:20:45 am] Oli: My God [26/9/23, 7:20:55 am] Sam: Ok I’m kidding with the tone of voice but it was fucked up [26/9/23, 7:21:09 am] Sam: I can’t remember my exact, exact literal role [26/9/23, 7:21:13 am] Oli: You held down the rapee? [26/9/23, 7:21:14 am] Sam: What my hands were doing etc [26/9/23, 7:21:19 am] Oli: Or not that fucked up? [26/9/23, 7:21:30 am] Oli: God! [26/9/23, 7:21:32 am] Sam: But I know I helped him in the kitchen when crushing up a pill to spike someone’s drink [26/9/23, 7:21:42 am] Sam: Can’t remember if I crushed it or he did, or who did what [26/9/23, 7:21:50 am] Sam: I did not have sex with the guy [26/9/23, 7:21:54 am] Sam: This was a Kieran production [26/9/23, 7:21:55 am] Oli: Did the victim know he was raped? [26/9/23, 7:22:10 am] Sam: I wanted to get him out of the flat quickly - this is not a proud memory [26/9/23, 7:22:13 am] Oli: Sounds awful [26/9/23, 7:22:19 am] Sam: I can’t remember what I was thinking at the time [26/9/23, 7:22:32 am] Sam: This was a long, long time ago [26/9/23, 7:22:38 am] Sam: Not an excuse, just context [26/9/23, 7:22:48 am] Sam: Wait lemme find my messages with Raz about it [26/9/23, 7:22:55 am] Oli: I’m not exactly going to book you! [26/9/23, 7:23:01 am] Oli: But yes I know what you mean ‎[26/9/23, 7:23:18 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 7:23:21 am] Oli: It is shocking obviously but then shocking things happen all the time [26/9/23, 7:23:28 am] Sam: ‘Toxic midget rapist’ is excellent [26/9/23, 7:23:43 am] Oli: What’s more interesting is you registering a role and I wonder what that does [26/9/23, 7:23:49 am] Sam: I really think Raz should write restaurant reviews or something - excellent turns of phrase [26/9/23, 7:23:49 am] Oli: 🤣 [26/9/23, 7:24:05 am] Sam: I think the military call it perpetrator-induced trauma [26/9/23, 7:24:09 am] Sam: Does a lot [26/9/23, 7:24:34 am] Sam: Eg slaughterhouse workers: https://t.co/rhbQ8veP6j [26/9/23, 7:25:09 am] Sam: There’s just been yet another grisly murder perpetrated by two slaughterhouse workers [26/9/23, 7:25:12 am] Sam: And… one sec ‎[26/9/23, 7:27:19 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 7:27:34 am] Oli: Fucking hell [26/9/23, 7:27:39 am] Oli: Nice people [26/9/23, 7:27:41 am] Sam: If anyone thinks these cases - and the natures of the murders - are a coincidence, I have a bridge to sell them [26/9/23, 7:27:55 am] Sam: Time and again [26/9/23, 7:27:59 am] Sam: Hold on one sec [26/9/23, 7:28:02 am] Oli: 22! ‎[26/9/23, 7:28:22 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 7:28:32 am] Sam: You begin to see the pattern [26/9/23, 7:29:25 am] Oli: This is enough to psychologically convince someone against meat eating perhaps [26/9/23, 7:29:27 am] Oli: Scary [26/9/23, 7:29:30 am] Oli: That is awful! [26/9/23, 7:30:27 am] Sam: Twitter acquaintance said exactly that ‎[26/9/23, 7:30:41 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 7:31:01 am] Sam: It’s horrific and harrowing [26/9/23, 7:31:03 am] Oli: Very chilling to read [26/9/23, 7:31:08 am] Oli: Horrible [26/9/23, 7:31:14 am] Oli: It has raped my mind ‎[26/9/23, 7:31:28 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 7:31:43 am] Sam: What do we expect that to do to a human being? [26/9/23, 7:32:08 am] Sam: The BBC piece you mean? [26/9/23, 7:32:22 am] Oli: The mail one about the Bristol stabbing slaughterhouse [26/9/23, 7:32:23 am] Oli: Dec 2022 [26/9/23, 7:32:36 am] Oli: But the BBC one too come to think of it [26/9/23, 7:33:12 am] Sam: BBC one is brutal [26/9/23, 7:33:28 am] Oli: This is nasty [26/9/23, 7:33:46 am] Sam: Worth reading all of it if you haven’t - not to proselytise, and I think I’m relatively good with not proselytising, or relatively bad perhaps I should say, but … god [26/9/23, 7:34:08 am] Oli: I read first few paras of it [26/9/23, 7:34:12 am] Oli: I will carry on [26/9/23, 7:34:25 am] Oli: This is also brutal! [26/9/23, 7:34:29 am] Oli: Just the imagery [26/9/23, 7:34:43 am] Oli: I don’t really think I eat much slaughterhouse things [26/9/23, 7:34:50 am] Oli: And certainly don’t want to after reading this [26/9/23, 7:35:01 am] Oli: I eat gamey things shot by someone [26/9/23, 7:35:20 am] Oli: Which I suppose is probably less bad morally than the concentration camp esque slaughterhouse [26/9/23, 7:35:24 am] Oli: That is just appalling ‎[26/9/23, 7:35:31 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 7:35:46 am] Sam: As I always say… [one sec] [26/9/23, 7:35:51 am] Oli: As in bought from Butcher ‎[26/9/23, 7:36:10 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 7:36:26 am] Oli: Ah yes pescatarians are a thing too [26/9/23, 7:36:29 am] Sam: I’ve gone off eggs (morally) since writing that [26/9/23, 7:36:33 am] Oli: I have similar attitude re fish [26/9/23, 7:36:44 am] Oli: I like some fish but not all [26/9/23, 7:36:47 am] Oli: Why? [26/9/23, 7:36:59 am] Oli: Abuse of hens? [26/9/23, 7:37:05 am] Oli: Similar with milk/dairy? [26/9/23, 7:37:10 am] Sam: I’m morally pescatarian but I have never liked fish and I don’t think I’ve eaten any fish (and meat only once or twice when people have pestered me into it) since I stopped it all at 6 [26/9/23, 7:37:27 am] Sam: For chickens it was… [26/9/23, 7:37:35 am] Sam: . [26/9/23, 7:37:42 am] Oli: I don’t eat beef at all! ‎[26/9/23, 7:38:03 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 7:38:31 am] Sam: But yes ethically agree re fish [26/9/23, 7:38:31 am] Oli: Gelatin re pig products? I wonder what that is? [26/9/23, 7:38:34 am] Oli: That’s in sweets. [26/9/23, 7:38:40 am] Sam: Slaughter of fish is unusually compassionate [26/9/23, 7:38:43 am] Oli: Hence halal haribo etc [26/9/23, 7:38:56 am] Sam: Because fish produce lactic acid when stressed, and we don’t like the taste of lactic acid [26/9/23, 7:39:05 am] Sam: Stupid fucking cows, shoulda thought of that one! [26/9/23, 7:39:25 am] Sam: Anyway so we electrocute fish now, which is relatively painless and sorta near enough to ok in my book [26/9/23, 7:39:57 am] Oli: Horrible [26/9/23, 7:40:12 am] Sam: I don’t need to waste time splitting hairs about stuff like that when there’s such horrific distressing evil as the stuff I’ve mentioned above [26/9/23, 7:40:18 am] Sam: Fish I mean [26/9/23, 7:40:26 am] Sam: Splitting hairs about fish that is [26/9/23, 7:40:31 am] Sam: Yup [26/9/23, 7:40:34 am] Oli: This is how it’s done on a mass scale presumably. If farmed etc [26/9/23, 7:40:40 am] Oli: I’ve heard about that and some are against that [26/9/23, 7:40:51 am] Sam: Yes, I think so - it’s economical [26/9/23, 7:40:56 am] Sam: Oh sorry [26/9/23, 7:41:02 am] Sam: Thought you were talking about chickens there [26/9/23, 7:41:09 am] Oli: Oh haha no the fish [26/9/23, 7:41:13 am] Sam: Yes that’s how it’s done with fish, at least for fishing at ses [26/9/23, 7:41:15 am] Sam: Sea [26/9/23, 7:41:20 am] Oli: But chickens yes the most horrible way [26/9/23, 7:41:27 am] Sam: More and more fish now are from fish farms, which are a whole other kettle of fish [26/9/23, 7:41:59 am] Oli: Yes I don’t like farmed fish I think that’s bad [26/9/23, 7:42:00 am] Sam: And apparently quite grim, but … I suppose at the end of the day I have less mind meld with a fish, and I don’t eat fish anyway and so I’ve not paid too much attention tbqh [26/9/23, 7:42:23 am] Sam: Yeah I think probably not great [26/9/23, 7:42:30 am] Sam: Which doesn’t leave much [26/9/23, 7:42:44 am] Sam: I genuinely am more or less entirely fine with hunting, as in the kinda thing that my friend James’s dad did [26/9/23, 7:42:49 am] Oli: What do you eat on Christmas Day out of interest? [26/9/23, 7:42:56 am] Oli: Or are your whole family onboard? [26/9/23, 7:43:13 am] Sam: I.e. following a deer (or waiting or whatever they do) and taking a clean shot so they’re dead before they hit the floor [26/9/23, 7:43:25 am] Oli: The idea of a vegan/vege Christmas seems so unusual. [26/9/23, 7:43:26 am] Sam: To me I couldn’t care less about the death [26/9/23, 7:43:29 am] Oli: But maybe that’s old fashioned [26/9/23, 7:43:42 am] Sam: I have slight nightmares about calves or whatever they’re called [26/9/23, 7:43:48 am] Oli: And I don’t see why not if it means not endorsing what you’ve just shown here [26/9/23, 7:43:58 am] Sam: But I think James’s dad and most hunters in general go for old males [26/9/23, 7:44:06 am] Oli: Saunders? [26/9/23, 7:44:11 am] Sam: And deer probably aren’t big on two-parent households [26/9/23, 7:44:29 am] Sam: No, sorry, Kinch, my old childhood friend whose dad hunted [26/9/23, 7:44:40 am] Sam: Nope, though some have swifched [26/9/23, 7:44:41 am] Oli: Oh I see ah yes. [26/9/23, 7:45:14 am] Sam: My grandma switched - very sweetly I was in Suffolk for my birthday and she turned down meat, and said she hadn’t eaten it since we (a few of us) had a long after-dinner chat about this last year [26/9/23, 7:45:20 am] Sam: Brother same [26/9/23, 7:45:33 am] Sam: Sister switched when I did, when we were both young [26/9/23, 7:46:21 am] Sam: Parents won’t, probably - is what it is, and I think they’re somewhat mindful and cut down, and they buy such expensive silly meat from expensive silly places that it probably has a better life and a better death than most of us [26/9/23, 7:46:40 am] Oli: Yes that’s the thing. [26/9/23, 7:46:48 am] Sam: Cows probably going to the fucking London Clinic and dying surrounded by all their family and friends [26/9/23, 7:46:52 am] Oli: I think the expensive meat is one of the only options. [26/9/23, 7:47:04 am] Oli: I do that I think [26/9/23, 7:47:07 am] Oli: But don’t eat beef [26/9/23, 7:47:24 am] Oli: Not Hindu just don’t like it and find the way they will be killed to be awful [26/9/23, 7:47:32 am] Oli: And slowly cutting out chicken [26/9/23, 7:48:03 am] Oli: I like pheasant and grouse etc but seasonal so sort of limited [26/9/23, 7:48:18 am] Oli: But not slaughterhouse [26/9/23, 7:48:22 am] Sam: Yeah, I mean, it’s as I said to Freddie - it’s a horrendous evil and, while people squirm out of it in their own individual ways, I don’t think anyone would attempt to deny it [26/9/23, 7:48:24 am] Oli: Fish otherwise is quite good. [26/9/23, 7:48:35 am] Oli: Actually I’ve just mostly eaten chicken. A lot of Jews I know do that [26/9/23, 7:48:46 am] Sam: That I think is fine, I couldn’t care less really [26/9/23, 7:48:46 am] Oli: Though have been cutting it out for years because of these stories [26/9/23, 7:48:53 am] Sam: Not good for the moors etc but not end of world [26/9/23, 7:49:13 am] Sam: Morally dwarfed by burger holocaust [26/9/23, 7:49:39 am] Oli: I believe we do consume the stress/bad chemicals of the animal [26/9/23, 7:49:45 am] Oli: And this probably isn’t good for us [26/9/23, 7:50:01 am] Sam: Chickens bred for meat have an ok life I think, and don’t need to produce chicks who are thrown into blenders [26/9/23, 7:50:22 am] Oli: But also the battery chickens must have a ghastly life [26/9/23, 7:51:14 am] Oli: Depends how they kill the chicken probably but to some extent any studied death of a thinking thing like that does get to me if I think about it [26/9/23, 7:51:34 am] Oli: The problem for most of us is that it’s just easier/simpler to carry on eating X Y and Z [26/9/23, 7:51:40 am] Sam: Pretty strictly separate from chickens bred for eggs, who are essentially raped to death and then killed for soup after a horrendous life where endless kids are born only to be stolen from them and (not that this part is strictly known to the chicken) killed horribly and obscenely and in a manner insulting to even just basic respect for life itself [26/9/23, 7:52:00 am] Sam: Just trying to put it in plain English here I guess [26/9/23, 7:52:16 am] Sam: I can’t abide the sort of moral invertebracy that I see about this [26/9/23, 7:52:40 am] Oli: Yes I can understand that. The problem is most humans seem to be weak. [26/9/23, 7:53:04 am] Sam: Can’t recall off the top of my head how chickens are killed that are used primarily for meat, but I suspect probably not utterly horribly because the economics are less cut-throat [26/9/23, 7:53:37 am] Oli: Raped to death [26/9/23, 7:53:45 am] Oli: Yes that makes sense [26/9/23, 7:54:06 am] Oli: Actually it’s awful that that can carry on. [26/9/23, 7:54:28 am] Oli: They are living entities. It does fuck the mind [26/9/23, 7:54:44 am] Oli: I haven’t had eggs for a month or two come to think of it [26/9/23, 7:54:46 am] Sam: Incidentally, since you mentioned battery hens, a warning: [26/9/23, 7:54:49 am] Oli: They’re not essential at all ‎[26/9/23, 7:54:52 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[26/9/23, 7:54:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 7:55:19 am] Sam: Outrageously common - often at Waitrose I’ve not found a single ‘free range’ egg carton that was actually free range [26/9/23, 7:55:39 am] Sam: And even free range is not exactly a Buddha-grade ethical watermark [26/9/23, 7:55:41 am] Oli: Free range within a barn! [26/9/23, 7:56:28 am] Sam: Incidentally also, since I mentioned the guy earlier I think, or at any rate meant to in another connection: [26/9/23, 7:56:41 am] Oli: I recall this [26/9/23, 7:57:11 am] Oli: Maybe I spoke to someone else about it ‎[26/9/23, 7:57:19 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 7:57:24 am] Oli: Think a friend said they were not wholly free range [26/9/23, 7:57:51 am] Sam: I think this is instructive re battery hens and cows and such [26/9/23, 7:58:30 am] Sam: At best they are at least freer than many of the people eating them [26/9/23, 7:59:24 am] Sam: Ahhh, no, I didn’t say his name but it was his ordeal (and death — don’t worry, he didn’t escape, and not will the animals) I was thinking of with the CIA remark [26/9/23, 7:59:33 am] Oli: A battery human it seems [26/9/23, 8:00:19 am] Sam: Well, sometimes the animals do escape, and then we scold the paid murderers for doing their paid murdering in front of the people who pay them to murder: https://www.totallyveganbuzz.com/news/slaughterhouse-worker-charged-for-stabbing-escaped-cow-parking-lot/ [26/9/23, 8:01:01 am] Sam: Yup - ‘stereotyped behaviours’ or some such neutered drivel would be the term we’d use of animals [26/9/23, 8:01:32 am] Sam: It’s nice and horrifying to remember the reality behind the soporific Latinate don’t-worry-the-professionals-are-taking-care-of-it bollocks [26/9/23, 8:02:07 am] Oli: God [26/9/23, 8:02:57 am] Oli: Shows this worker to be far gone and indoctrinated [26/9/23, 8:03:01 am] Sam: Sorry to be so bleak about this but … how can you not be [26/9/23, 8:03:19 am] Sam: Yeah, and absolutely to be expected, really [26/9/23, 8:03:21 am] Oli: Surely one would stop in the building and not carry it on in a parking lot [26/9/23, 8:03:32 am] Oli: Yes it shows the type of people who do that job [26/9/23, 8:04:06 am] Sam: 🤷‍♀️ I think one probably forgets that other people are busy trying to ignore what they’re paying others to do [26/9/23, 8:04:53 am] Sam: I think probably after a while those who do the job - the ones who don’t kill themselves or others or quit and never go near meat again - come to see it as normal [26/9/23, 8:04:57 am] Sam: Because it _is_ normal [26/9/23, 8:05:29 am] Sam: I mean, hey, would you expect an SS guard to scruple to kill a Jew in the street? [26/9/23, 8:05:36 am] Oli: Yes normal for them [26/9/23, 8:05:59 am] Sam: (In fact they didn’t scruple to do that - I read a paper a while ago saying a very large percentage of Germans witnessed one or more incidents like that during the war) [26/9/23, 8:06:53 am] Sam: And nor is it that surprising when they torture people to death and string up their carcasses, or shoot their ex-girlfriends with bolt guns, or kill cows in front of people who’d sooner pretend that they don’t know where fucking beef comes from [26/9/23, 8:07:15 am] Sam: 🤷‍♀️ [26/9/23, 8:07:28 am] Sam: Ok imma do something else for a tiny bit haha [26/9/23, 8:07:32 am] Oli: It is grotesque [26/9/23, 8:07:34 am] Sam: Head is gone [26/9/23, 8:07:43 am] Oli: Well… that would do that to you [26/9/23, 8:07:49 am] Oli: Never liked beef [26/9/23, 8:07:52 am] Oli: Thankfully [26/9/23, 8:08:04 am] Sam: Yeah it is one of our top evil producers by volume [26/9/23, 8:08:06 am] Oli: And won’t eat it anyway. A cow is too much to kill I think [26/9/23, 8:08:22 am] Oli: I suspect it will go on for a long time [26/9/23, 8:08:33 am] Oli: You have a funny sleep schedule [26/9/23, 8:08:38 am] Oli: Like me at the moment 🤣 [26/9/23, 8:08:40 am] Sam: Not if there are three of you in the car park with a crossbow! [26/9/23, 8:08:56 am] Sam: Oh yeah I ought to schedule some sleep [26/9/23, 8:08:58 am] Oli: Nice people the Americans [26/9/23, 8:09:01 am] Oli: LOL [26/9/23, 8:09:10 am] Oli: I was just expecting a normal night [26/9/23, 8:09:15 am] Oli: Then it becomes coke night [26/9/23, 8:09:17 am] Oli: On a Monday [26/9/23, 8:09:18 am] Oli: Madness [26/9/23, 8:09:25 am] Oli: Then we have a nice chat [26/9/23, 8:09:32 am] Oli: Which is good [26/9/23, 8:10:15 am] Sam: Yeah it’s been good, tho definitely slightly depressing - I mean, this is among the many things that horrify and depress me, but it’s more mental focus than obv it has in my typical waking moment I guess [26/9/23, 8:10:18 am] Oli: Do you not sleep much? [26/9/23, 8:10:39 am] Sam: The rest of the time I’m thinking about the other horrifying evils, or occasionally about work or socialising [26/9/23, 8:10:58 am] Sam: Abortion is a good one, just for a right wing twist [26/9/23, 8:11:24 am] Oli: Yes I didn’t intend to turn it depressing but was interested to learn more about this. It’s good to be aware of it and have reasons not to partake, which I’ve been considering for ages. I really eat very little in the way of meat if I think about it. [26/9/23, 8:11:37 am] Sam: Like, yeah, it makes total sense to be vegetarian and vegan and to campaign for seaweed to have equal rights but then act like the mother’s womb operates by the same rules as The Purge [26/9/23, 8:11:45 am] Oli: No wonder drugs are on the table for you at that rate [26/9/23, 8:11:51 am] Oli: Would do that to anyone [26/9/23, 8:11:57 am] Sam: Fucking people I’ve spoken to fucking acting like the baby is a coke can in a hotel minibar [26/9/23, 8:12:06 am] Oli: I do it for similar reasons to stop thinking about real life I suppose [26/9/23, 8:12:10 am] Sam: Activated only once you pull it out of the vagina [26/9/23, 8:12:26 am] Sam: Yeah probably possibly to an extent [26/9/23, 8:12:29 am] Sam: Probably [26/9/23, 8:12:40 am] Sam: It is maddening [26/9/23, 8:12:45 am] Oli: Oh yes these pro life people are nut jobs [26/9/23, 8:12:48 am] Oli: They’re unhinged [26/9/23, 8:13:05 am] Sam: What do you do when you’re living in the Holocaust and you care? [26/9/23, 8:13:10 am] Sam: Send out pipe bombs? [26/9/23, 8:13:17 am] Sam: I don’t know [26/9/23, 8:13:23 am] Oli: Resistance [26/9/23, 8:13:26 am] Sam: Not quite sure how to make a pipe bomb [26/9/23, 8:13:26 am] Oli: One option [26/9/23, 8:13:30 am] Oli: Nicholas Winton was good [26/9/23, 8:13:39 am] Sam: Who was he again? Rings a very definite bell [26/9/23, 8:13:45 am] Oli: Saved the Jews [26/9/23, 8:13:47 am] Oli: Kinder transport [26/9/23, 8:13:57 am] Oli: The children [26/9/23, 8:13:59 am] Sam: Ahhh, something to do with Kasztner was he? [26/9/23, 8:14:01 am] Oli: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Winton [26/9/23, 8:14:03 am] Sam: Or maybe not [26/9/23, 8:14:10 am] Sam: Oh right [26/9/23, 8:14:22 am] Oli: Wonderful moment years ago people in a Studio asked to stand if they were saved by Nicholas winton [26/9/23, 8:14:26 am] Oli: He didn’t know this would happen [26/9/23, 8:14:30 am] Oli: And was in the audience [26/9/23, 8:14:54 am] Oli: Don’t think so [26/9/23, 8:15:07 am] Sam: Ah nice [26/9/23, 8:15:31 am] Sam: Though gotta say this raises a very big point ‎[26/9/23, 8:15:40 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 8:15:56 am] Oli: https://youtu.be/6_nFuJAF5F0?si=nCKx0yNfpYIOAIiq [26/9/23, 8:15:58 am] Sam: … namely, if that description is correct, what the fuck did he actually do? [26/9/23, 8:16:06 am] Oli: Audience moment from 00:45 [26/9/23, 8:16:11 am] Oli: It’s only a 1 min clip [26/9/23, 8:16:44 am] Sam: Ah, nice, I always like those - I watched those few seconds but somehow don’t feel I can watch without being a bit clearer [26/9/23, 8:16:52 am] Sam: Since my brain isn’t really sure how to feel exactly [26/9/23, 8:17:15 am] Oli: Think he worked out who should be saved [26/9/23, 8:17:18 am] Oli: I’ll try and find [26/9/23, 8:17:24 am] Sam: Ah [26/9/23, 8:17:41 am] Sam: Went better for him than for fucking Kasztner then, that’s for sure, haha [26/9/23, 8:17:53 am] Oli: ‘Winton was born Nicholas Wertheimer in 1909, to parents of Jewish descent who were keen to integrate into British life. They anglicised their name and Winton was baptised into the Anglican church. His family contacts provided him with a particular insight into what was happening in Europe and what the Nazi regime might be capable of.’ [26/9/23, 8:18:22 am] Oli: He used his contacts to organise refuge to England [26/9/23, 8:18:31 am] Oli: For Jewish children stuck in the Sudetenland apparently [26/9/23, 8:18:56 am] Oli: And carried out negotiations with the British government [26/9/23, 8:19:14 am] Oli: So he arranged foster families for every child arriving [26/9/23, 8:19:31 am] Oli: Apparently. From Here https://www.bbc.co.uk/teach/how-did-one-englishman-save-669-children-from-the-holocaust/zd436v4 [26/9/23, 8:19:43 am] Oli: I’ve always known about his name re this [26/9/23, 8:20:07 am] Sam: Ah, ok, neat, this is good [26/9/23, 8:20:36 am] Sam: Certainly better than most of the Allies, though that’s a bar so low that most benthic invertebrate life would clear it [26/9/23, 8:21:10 am] Sam: Zofia Kossak should be more recognised [26/9/23, 8:21:13 am] Sam: For my money [26/9/23, 8:21:25 am] Oli: Sounds Czech/Hungarian [26/9/23, 8:21:27 am] Oli: Austro Hungarian [26/9/23, 8:21:38 am] Oli: Polish! [26/9/23, 8:21:39 am] Oli: Goodness [26/9/23, 8:21:56 am] Oli: Szczucka the other surname sounds more Polish [26/9/23, 8:22:04 am] Oli: (Her other name) [26/9/23, 8:22:09 am] Oli: Just looking her up [26/9/23, 8:22:24 am] Oli: Interesting figure to learn about [26/9/23, 8:22:37 am] Sam: Open antisemite, Catholic, Pole, horrified by what was being done, wrote a pamphlet, set up an organisation to rescue Jews (Zegota) which did a terrific job, was sent to Auschwitz, luckily survived just about [26/9/23, 8:23:18 am] Sam: Least worst translation here: https://web.archive.org/web/20100330174201/http://en.wikisource.org:80/wiki/Protest_of_Zofia_Kossak-Szczucka [26/9/23, 8:24:13 am] Sam: Hannah Szenes, died helping in the Kasztner cell/effort in Budapest, horrific, also committed her name to memory [26/9/23, 8:24:29 am] Sam: Prussian neighbour von Moltke of course [26/9/23, 8:25:10 am] Sam: (Ok, he didn’t really do anything per se, but when they decided to kill him for it he met it with great dignity and cetera) [26/9/23, 8:25:25 am] Sam: Albert Göring, brother of Hermann [26/9/23, 8:25:32 am] Oli: SOE member I see online [26/9/23, 8:25:59 am] Sam: The Hampels, original inspo for Fallada’s book [26/9/23, 8:26:01 am] Oli: Sad she was killed [26/9/23, 8:26:17 am] Sam: Jeder mann stirbt fur sich allein, iirc [26/9/23, 8:26:34 am] Sam: Every man dies for himself alone - I always liked the starkness of it in German [26/9/23, 8:26:43 am] Sam: Yup, we were quite good there [26/9/23, 8:26:55 am] Sam: Probably had some military objective [26/9/23, 8:27:08 am] Oli: They have a thing for starkness [26/9/23, 8:27:13 am] Sam: Couldn’t be bothered to drop a bomb or two on the railway tracks except once accidentally [26/9/23, 8:27:24 am] Sam: Mighta been nice had we bothered [26/9/23, 8:27:34 am] Oli: The S is pronounced Z and Z pronounced S in Hungarian I think [26/9/23, 8:27:41 am] Oli: Wiki says her name Senesh [26/9/23, 8:27:43 am] Oli: Makes sense [26/9/23, 8:27:59 am] Oli: But the S is a funny hybrid sound [26/9/23, 8:28:04 am] Oli: It’s a funny language! [26/9/23, 8:28:21 am] Sam: Yeah I dimly recall pronunciation [26/9/23, 8:28:26 am] Sam: Anyway must prob dash [26/9/23, 8:28:34 am] Sam: May send some nudes etc [26/9/23, 8:28:48 am] Oli: Yes sorry to keep you up! [26/9/23, 8:29:00 am] Oli: I am awful my sleeping at the moment I must repair 🤣 [26/9/23, 8:29:08 am] Oli: Scotland madness [26/9/23, 8:29:39 am] Oli: Yes your photos are nice! [26/9/23, 8:29:51 am] Oli: Aesthetically appealing [26/9/23, 8:30:56 am] Oli: At least some interesting food for the mind to be derived from this conversation. ‎[26/9/23, 8:39:25 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 8:40:14 am] Sam: Yeah it’s been good!! Food for the mind and body! lol ‎[26/9/23, 8:41:16 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 8:41:30 am] Sam: When Scottish people are good, they are very good indeed [26/9/23, 8:41:53 am] Oli: It is a nice and slender body. I see the muscle look it must be from tensing in a certain way. Or maybe you are secretly muscular! [26/9/23, 8:42:28 am] Sam: I may be muscular but I certainly don’t work out so god knows [26/9/23, 8:42:34 am] Oli: Also the facial hair suits your face funnily [26/9/23, 8:42:37 am] Sam: Sorry, there should be a comma there [26/9/23, 8:42:45 am] Sam: I’m not Damien - Damien works out so god knows, haha [26/9/23, 8:43:05 am] Sam: Ah yes thanks! It was actually Louis who suggested it years and years ago [26/9/23, 8:43:24 am] Sam: I’d forgotten my shaver when I was at his, and he said I’d look good with facial hair, and I at least agree [26/9/23, 8:44:51 am] Oli: Never liked haggis but only had it once! [26/9/23, 8:45:04 am] Oli: I never knew, I should admit, the proper provenance of Burn’s Night. [26/9/23, 8:45:27 am] Oli: Linked to Robbie Burns the poet that’s all I knew, so it was interesting to see that explained in this post. [26/9/23, 8:45:37 am] Oli: Burns’* ‎[26/9/23, 8:45:48 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[26/9/23, 8:45:49 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 8:45:52 am] Oli: Yes I’ve only just noticed it suits very well!! [26/9/23, 8:46:43 am] Oli: Ha [26/9/23, 8:47:37 am] Sam: No clue about haggis! And yeah it’s a great message! Also his Unco Guid poem (wording bc I can’t quite remember first word: Address to? something like that?) is worth reading. Also sorry if I’ve been a bit dour, this stuff just puts me in a weird mindframe! [26/9/23, 8:48:46 am] Oli: No you weren’t particularly dour. I think at this time of day many would be less energetic than you! [26/9/23, 8:50:05 am] Oli: Maybe energetic not the right word but you didn’t seem dour. It would however be bad to be happy discussing such things! [26/9/23, 2:19:37 pm] Sam: Did I just call you? I swear I did, but it doesn’t seem to show up on here. Maybe it didn’t quite connect. Anyway, mistake, not intended! ‎[26/9/23, 2:26:31 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 2:28:09 pm] Sam: I’m not self-conscious about most things but when I am it’s not by half measures!! ‎[26/9/23, 2:31:51 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 4:37:28 pm] Oli: Yes! It must’ve been an error! [26/9/23, 4:41:16 pm] Oli: This is a nice message for him to send [26/9/23, 4:41:57 pm] Oli: Lol! [26/9/23, 4:42:20 pm] Oli: Yes I don’t imagine you driving! If you are primarily London then it is not really needed. [26/9/23, 4:42:58 pm] Oli: Damien said something to offend Ryan? Just clarifying the message here. [26/9/23, 4:44:20 pm] Oli: Or to offend you it must be. [26/9/23, 4:44:25 pm] Sam: Oh this was about … ok I’ll just send my messages, haha. (Is it ever remiss of one to send one’s own messages? 🤔) ‎[26/9/23, 4:44:34 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[26/9/23, 4:44:44 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 4:46:09 pm] Sam: Just because below message sounds angry, clarifying: ‎[26/9/23, 4:46:12 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 4:47:01 pm] Sam: God I spend half my time just sending screenshots of one person to another [26/9/23, 4:47:08 pm] Sam: Guess it’s sorta intrinsically dishonest [26/9/23, 4:47:29 pm] Sam: Or else I would and should (=ought to) have a big group chat with everyone in it [26/9/23, 4:47:49 pm] Sam: It’s an emerging concern of moral philosophy [26/9/23, 4:48:13 pm] Oli: I wonder about that too. [26/9/23, 4:48:25 pm] Oli: A big group chat with everyone in it would probably be problematic for many reasons. [26/9/23, 4:49:49 pm] Oli: It could be to an extent but people do tend to talk about their conversations or what’s on their mind (which largely relates to what the people around them are doing). If they keep it schtum then good on them but I think sometimes it is good to get it out. [26/9/23, 4:50:53 pm] Oli: Though a potential problem is when one tells someone else something and then that person goes and blurts out that business to X Y and Z. I think that is worse to an extent then just getting something off one’s chest (and that’s the conflation one could make when not wanting to reveal any details). [26/9/23, 4:51:14 pm] Oli: Than* [26/9/23, 4:51:58 pm] Sam: Yeah it’s not _much_ different from quoting what someone said. I don’t think the screenshot aspect is special in any way, though some people seem to think screenshots are probative, and to some extent they are (in that _most_ people would struggle to doctor or fake them at least in substantial w… god I hate talking about my job stuff because there are so many qualifications to everything [26/9/23, 4:52:12 pm] Sam: [26/9/23, 4:52:47 pm] Sam: But yeah the fundamental question is what’s on the record and what’s off. I think. [26/9/23, 4:53:09 pm] Sam: And there really isn’t a super simple answer to that, nor is it realistic to always be explicit! [26/9/23, 4:53:24 pm] Oli: Yea there is some sort of concept like that regarding screenshots as prying [26/9/23, 4:53:38 pm] Oli: Yes [26/9/23, 4:56:13 pm] Sam: Yeah my friend Jake got annoyed about my screenshotting Snapchat messages, haha. I’ve got a screenshot somewhere (lol of course) of his reply saying “this is literally the point of Snapchat” or sth like that. [26/9/23, 4:56:27 pm] Sam: But then he’s enormously paranoid about nudes and stuff like that getting out. [26/9/23, 4:57:10 pm] Sam: Albeit for good reason - he’s shown me threads of people online conspiring to catfish him on Grindr etc to get and leak his nudes. Nuts. Eg I found this one on Google but there were many others: https://www.malegeneral.com/archive/dongs-2017/res/38848.php [26/9/23, 4:58:34 pm] Oli: Yes Snapchat tells the person when the conversation is screenshotted I think! [26/9/23, 4:58:39 pm] Oli: Or leaves a note in the chat [26/9/23, 4:59:04 pm] Sam: I never got why people didn’t just cover up their faces. Unless you’re semi-nude a lot in public imagery, it would be phenomenally hard to link a dick pic with a (non-nude) public persona. (As my aunt’s bitchy don at Wadham, Maurice Bowra, put it, after being caught skinny dipping and hiding his face: “I don’t know about you, gentlemen, but I at least am recognised by my face!”) [26/9/23, 4:59:15 pm] Sam: It does indeed - I know it well, haha [26/9/23, 4:59:24 pm] Oli: God that is intrusive. I suppose if you are a YouTuber that sort of thing happens! [26/9/23, 5:00:06 pm] Oli: Yes I’ve thought this many times. [26/9/23, 5:00:20 pm] Oli: Exactly [26/9/23, 5:08:52 pm] Sam: I think it’s maybe that pixelation makes it somehow less attractive. Like it fucks with the part of our brain that recognises and is attracted to the human form. It’s maybe why we want to see porn actors’ faces even if unattractive (at least when they’re in frame; I know in straight porn that’s often avoided entirely for the men, who presumedly look like the backs of bin lorries). ‎[26/9/23, 5:10:09 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[26/9/23, 5:11:30 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 5:13:06 pm] Sam: I wonder how Caffè Nero would feel about his t-shirt, though. Was it just us/we (fuck knows) who got members of the public (read: lonely angry nutters) writing into the school to convey their _disappointment_ that one of us was smoking or was a decibel too loud on the tube or whatever? [26/9/23, 5:27:34 pm] Oli: Oh yes that is a good idea [26/9/23, 5:28:32 pm] Oli: I think ‘members of the public’ just love an excuse to complain! [26/9/23, 5:29:00 pm] Oli: On Grindr etc. the thing is not to send face with nudes usually if worried about it being circulated I agree. [26/9/23, 5:29:45 pm] Oli: Bowra could be willing/unwilling icon for nudes 🤣 [26/9/23, 5:32:09 pm] Sam: Incidentally I was just rereading this. I hadn't seen how darkly funny that headline is. (Who could imagine a slaughterman might do such a thing?!) While I remember - since I just had some - I highly recommend this stuff: https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/naturli-organic-vegan-block/587862-744182-744183 It's weirdly, uncannily good. And since at the most conservative estimate it's about 6 cartons of milk to make 1 block of butter (using normal person sizes for both: 2 pints and 250g respectively), it's about the highest impact on a suffering/gram scale. Or so I calculated at least. Depends how much butter you eat! [26/9/23, 5:32:47 pm] Sam: I could send you so many stories from my chats with Louis! Maybe I will! ‎[26/9/23, 5:34:30 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[26/9/23, 5:34:30 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[26/9/23, 5:38:39 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[26/9/23, 5:38:42 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 5:38:42 pm] Oli: One of many uppity members of the public. I suppose it’s possible that these people were going through their own hassles that day and it came out the wrong way but we should always try and be nice to people! [26/9/23, 5:40:59 pm] Oli: My god. What was his job? Starbuck’s? What a high level of loons he was expected to deal with on a daily basis. [26/9/23, 5:41:28 pm] Oli: Ah yes a coffee place [26/9/23, 5:41:49 pm] Oli: I can see over a period of time this might make someone doing that go mad [26/9/23, 5:41:51 pm] Sam: https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxg88BvphLQU7zr-FGMr8lp9dG2DW7LaH-?si=55zXmaTghn4nzCPQ (Terribly clipped because YT is a PITA for this. But roughly the bit I wanted to send. More DFW!!) [26/9/23, 5:44:44 pm] Oli: I very seldom eat butter funnily but would occasionally with bread if e.g. at a restaurant waiting for food. I use olive oil instead in a domestic context in situations where butter would be used. [26/9/23, 5:50:59 pm] Sam: one sec ‎[26/9/23, 5:50:59 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[26/9/23, 6:59:52 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [26/9/23, 7:01:15 pm] Sam: Ah yes, likewise, though just for North London reasons rather than for antimurderist reasons. My parents would do the same. Definitely an Ottolenghiist thing. [26/9/23, 7:01:34 pm] Sam: Funnily enough I remember having Damien's friend Isaac around on Dead Queen Day, which for us stretched into Dead Queen Night, and ... [26/9/23, 7:02:01 pm] Sam: ... we were talking about it, and I was reflecting that I didn't feel much emotional attachment to the Queen in the way that it seemed most people did ... [26/9/23, 7:03:11 pm] Sam: ... and he clearly interpreted this as an immigrant thing because of the slight nonluciference of my skin, and kept trying to explain English culture to me, and ... [26/9/23, 7:04:37 pm] Sam: ... I tried in vain to explain to him (amusedly, not offendedly) that this was not an 'immigrant' thing but a 'North London being a very very different place from Sundayroastandcricketonthevillagegreenshire' thing [26/9/23, 7:25:39 pm] Sam: Sorry, I’m a terrible listener 🙈 Starbucks in the past, Caffè Nero then and now! I don’t think he went mad but he’s … a good human being. (I find it hard to really and truly explain what I mean by that. Most people’s opinions I couldn’t care less about - I don’t mean that in a sassy Essex way, and in some ways it’s a good thing to have that social feedback loop, but it’s the fact of the matter. Louis, though, if he disapproved of me that would stop me dead in my tracks. I trust him really more than I trust myself. Anyway, this was a discursion but it’s an interesting thought.) [26/9/23, 7:25:54 pm] Sam: Tldr: Starbucks [26/9/23, 8:00:13 pm] Sam: Also, do you not work? Do you not need to work? Where are you living? By how many different lines of kinship are you connected to whomever you are living there with? [27/9/23, 12:59:08 am] Oli: Ello Ello. Just been out to supper. Madness [27/9/23, 12:59:14 am] Oli: Shall get to these [27/9/23, 12:59:50 am] Oli: I’m a traffic warden. I’ve turned over a new leaf. A CEO. Nothing else makes me get out of bed in the morning but the burning urge to give out tickets [27/9/23, 1:00:07 am] Oli: I could’ve just about written that without laughing but I just burst out laughing [27/9/23, 1:00:09 am] Oli: LOL 🤣🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 1:00:34 am] Oli: Likes of coke? Ah… right. Lines of kinship! [27/9/23, 1:00:44 am] Oli: Yes my gt gt grandmother was his gt gt grandpa’s sister. [27/9/23, 1:01:06 am] Oli: I live with him in Notting Hill and Edinburgh. What fun. Sometimes. Otherwise it becomes monotonous [27/9/23, 1:01:32 am] Oli: Need to work? Probably for mental health [27/9/23, 1:01:40 am] Oli: It’s very good to keep the mind occupied [27/9/23, 1:01:51 am] Oli: If I’m off silly drugs I can read philosophy books etc. which keeps me occupied [27/9/23, 1:02:10 am] Oli: If I had lots of money I’d either found a philosophy school or go into academia [27/9/23, 1:02:48 am] Oli: Haa just sorting self out back here! [27/9/23, 1:04:31 am] Sam: Ohhh this is the same cousin? God I didn’t realise. I was imagining something more like a first cousin! This makes sense. [27/9/23, 1:04:50 am] Oli: LOL! My first cousins are still at school! Much younger than I! [27/9/23, 1:07:26 am] Sam: God it’s probably not 100% impossible that we’re related to a similar extent. I have no Irish at all as far back as I’ve ever heard about*, but through Germany it’s very very possible. They sound like they moved in similar-ish circles (well, connections with the Hahn guy at least). God… *Tho possible with paternal grandpa (who was from Solihull) or maternal great grandpa (grandma in video’s mother who was a poor stowaway from … shit I think from Essex actually … to Ceylon where she married my gma’s pa). [27/9/23, 1:07:51 am] Oli: This could be! [27/9/23, 1:08:01 am] Sam: Wait so his house is in Notting Hill? Or his parents’? Where in Notting Hill? Just wondering if near Phil [27/9/23, 1:08:05 am] Oli: My Hahns were assimilated Jews who got lucky and mostly Escaped [27/9/23, 1:08:10 am] Oli: Campden Hill Tower lol [27/9/23, 1:08:12 am] Sam: Name of Phil’s road slips my mind right now [27/9/23, 1:08:12 am] Oli: The flat building [27/9/23, 1:08:18 am] Oli: But his parents are on Basset Road [27/9/23, 1:08:23 am] Oli: Near Ladbroke Grove tube station [27/9/23, 1:08:27 am] Sam: Big quarter-circle trajectory up from the main road whatever it’s called at that point [27/9/23, 1:08:36 am] Sam: Notting Hill Road or something [27/9/23, 1:08:42 am] Sam: Oxford St continued [27/9/23, 1:08:43 am] Oli: Yes that’s where I am [27/9/23, 1:08:46 am] Sam: Becomes Holland Park Road [27/9/23, 1:08:50 am] Oli: Main Street Notting Hill Gate [27/9/23, 1:08:54 am] Oli: Campden Hill Tower [27/9/23, 1:09:18 am] Sam: I recognise the Campden name as being associated with the area (was he a housebuilder?) but dunno otoh [27/9/23, 1:09:38 am] Sam: (I now realise that means ‘on the other hand’ but to me it still means ‘off top of head’) [27/9/23, 1:10:00 am] Sam: Oh shit you’re really really close to Phil [27/9/23, 1:10:17 am] Sam: He’s Pembridge Villas [27/9/23, 1:10:21 am] Sam: Number 27 [27/9/23, 1:10:26 am] Sam: Don’t visit lol ‎[27/9/23, 1:10:30 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:10:34 am] Oli: Not sure [27/9/23, 1:10:42 am] Oli: Campden Hill Rd is where Humphrey Wakefield live [27/9/23, 1:10:46 am] Oli: Lived* [27/9/23, 1:10:55 am] Oli: Slightly off where the tower is [27/9/23, 1:11:10 am] Oli: But close [27/9/23, 1:11:15 am] Oli: By not tube station [27/9/23, 1:11:23 am] Oli: Goodness [27/9/23, 1:11:25 am] Oli: Yes ‎[27/9/23, 1:12:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 1:12:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 1:12:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 1:12:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:12:05 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 1:12:17 am] Oli: Good to keep the mind occupied [27/9/23, 1:12:20 am] Sam: Had to include this classic [27/9/23, 1:12:23 am] Sam: Ah snap [27/9/23, 1:12:25 am] Oli: YES [27/9/23, 1:12:26 am] Sam: You spotted [27/9/23, 1:12:29 am] Oli: Always down there [27/9/23, 1:12:52 am] Sam: Yeah it’s pretty bloody close [27/9/23, 1:12:57 am] Oli: Madness [27/9/23, 1:12:59 am] Sam: We should all do something at some point [27/9/23, 1:13:06 am] Oli: Yes [27/9/23, 1:13:07 am] Sam: It’s Phil’s house, not parents’ [27/9/23, 1:13:13 am] Oli: We are in an ex council looking building [27/9/23, 1:13:19 am] Sam: Parents is 550 King’s Rd apaz near Fred [27/9/23, 1:13:28 am] Sam: Who was saying that he’d always thought their garden was a park, lol [27/9/23, 1:13:32 am] Oli: Oh I went to fred’s London place [27/9/23, 1:13:38 am] Oli: It’s near that pub [27/9/23, 1:13:40 am] Oli: It’s funny [27/9/23, 1:13:48 am] Sam: Haha the pub was lit the ref pt, 1s [27/9/23, 1:13:54 am] Oli: Lol Fred has that house [27/9/23, 1:13:58 am] Oli: As all the others don’t want it [27/9/23, 1:14:11 am] Oli: They only use it if they come up on the off hand ‎[27/9/23, 1:14:12 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:14:24 am] Oli: It’s weird they have lots of paintings around of various Stuart’s [27/9/23, 1:14:27 am] Oli: Hilarious [27/9/23, 1:14:34 am] Oli: YES [27/9/23, 1:14:34 am] Sam: We wuz kangz [27/9/23, 1:14:36 am] Oli: fox and pheasant [27/9/23, 1:15:00 am] Sam: Off chance? Or is this some sexual service? 😝 [27/9/23, 1:15:08 am] Sam: Ugh I typed haha, didn’t mean to hit the emoji predict [27/9/23, 1:15:09 am] Oli: I suspect so [27/9/23, 1:15:12 am] Oli: Like their family [27/9/23, 1:15:13 am] Sam: God I sound like a 60 year old aunt [27/9/23, 1:15:15 am] Oli: Sexual services to the king [27/9/23, 1:15:24 am] Oli: Funnily that’s my ancestress too [27/9/23, 1:15:32 am] Oli: But they seem to think it makes them special [27/9/23, 1:15:41 am] Oli: She was a high class prozzie [27/9/23, 1:15:43 am] Oli: 😈 [27/9/23, 1:15:46 am] Oli: Good idea [27/9/23, 1:15:54 am] Oli: I only have 94 year old aunts [27/9/23, 1:15:57 am] Sam: Yes yours and Freddie’s both [27/9/23, 1:15:57 am] Oli: Or great aunts rather [27/9/23, 1:16:08 am] Sam: Yours coincidentally was the one I’d read about and preferred to Freddie’s [27/9/23, 1:16:18 am] Oli: Oh I have two. [27/9/23, 1:16:19 am] Sam: Very witty and savage and excoriating [27/9/23, 1:16:20 am] Oli: He only has one [27/9/23, 1:16:22 am] Oli: He’s a prole 😈 [27/9/23, 1:16:31 am] Oli: Yes my FitzRoy one better [27/9/23, 1:16:34 am] Oli: Palmer Villiers [27/9/23, 1:16:36 am] Oli: Barbara [27/9/23, 1:16:37 am] Sam: The one gay stereotype that I fully embody [27/9/23, 1:16:37 am] Oli: Babs LOL [27/9/23, 1:16:48 am] Sam: I mean _liking_ those people, not being them, that is [27/9/23, 1:17:03 am] Sam: Tho not liking quite as much as do Damien and Kieran and some others - but yeah it’s an entertaining sorta ‘type’ [27/9/23, 1:17:15 am] Oli: Kieran? [27/9/23, 1:17:18 am] Oli: Gosh didn’t know that [27/9/23, 1:17:20 am] Oli: But doesn’t surprise [27/9/23, 1:17:32 am] Sam: Wait maybe we’re speaking at crossed wires [27/9/23, 1:17:35 am] Sam: Cross purposes dammit [27/9/23, 1:17:38 am] Sam: Maybe our wires are crossed [27/9/23, 1:17:41 am] Sam: You know what I mean [27/9/23, 1:17:42 am] Oli: No they are the same [27/9/23, 1:17:48 am] Sam: I meant Kieran enjoys the bitchy stuff [27/9/23, 1:18:04 am] Sam: And was always annoyingly/autistically urging me to be mean about people [27/9/23, 1:18:14 am] Sam: And I developed a … well, put it this way [27/9/23, 1:18:25 am] Sam: I remember watching Home Alone 2 at my gparents’ when younger ‎[27/9/23, 1:18:43 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:18:47 am] Sam: (Same grandma as phone call earlier - grandpa dead, as both are) [27/9/23, 1:18:47 am] Oli: That’s campden hill tower [27/9/23, 1:18:54 am] Oli: Near nott hill gate station [27/9/23, 1:18:58 am] Sam: And I remember my grandma quite visibly not liking it [27/9/23, 1:19:03 am] Sam: To which I asked why [27/9/23, 1:19:17 am] Oli: I remember he used to be very like that [27/9/23, 1:19:24 am] Oli: He’s tried to stop it a bit but still has it [27/9/23, 1:19:28 am] Sam: And she said that after growing up in the Nazi period, she wasn’t able to laugh at cruelty [27/9/23, 1:20:03 am] Sam: (Incidentally that fucking kid is a complete psychopath, what the fuck were those films? 100% ‘coming to the nuisance’ or whatever the phrase is) [27/9/23, 1:20:17 am] Sam: Yes he has a weird sporadic urge to be good [27/9/23, 1:22:34 am] Oli: Yes and then reneges on it ‎[27/9/23, 1:23:27 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 1:23:27 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:23:53 am] Sam: Yes it’s just a fleeting thing, like suddenly deciding one wants to learn to knit [27/9/23, 1:24:49 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 1:24:52 am] Oli: My genealogy [27/9/23, 1:24:55 am] Oli: He kept it saved [27/9/23, 1:24:58 am] Oli: That’s funny [27/9/23, 1:25:04 am] Oli: I suppose I have an unusual interest [27/9/23, 1:25:06 am] Oli: 🧐 [27/9/23, 1:25:41 am] Sam: I have a usual uninterest! [27/9/23, 1:25:52 am] Sam: And a disinterest, which we share [27/9/23, 1:26:18 am] Sam: As well as remembering great great great great great great great great great great great great grandpa LUCA [27/9/23, 1:26:33 am] Oli: My immediate family were not really very good for me LOL [27/9/23, 1:26:38 am] Oli: So I looked to the past up the trees [27/9/23, 1:26:44 am] Oli: And had fun that way [27/9/23, 1:26:51 am] Oli: Suppose that’s what happens [27/9/23, 1:26:59 am] Oli: 🤣 [27/9/23, 1:27:00 am] Sam: If you gaze long into a tree, the tree gazes also into you [27/9/23, 1:27:25 am] Oli: My Ancestor was actually last Duke von Richmond to be called Lennox [27/9/23, 1:27:37 am] Sam: Let me find this utterly braindead tweet I replied to last week or summat [27/9/23, 1:27:38 am] Oli: I have both Gordon and Lennox but after that they took two names [27/9/23, 1:27:43 am] Oli: And birthed the closeted gay [27/9/23, 1:27:46 am] Oli: 😈 [27/9/23, 1:27:50 am] Oli: Makes me laugh ‎[27/9/23, 1:27:58 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:28:17 am] Oli: It was just good for me as gave me psychological stability when I needed it [27/9/23, 1:28:22 am] Sam: The fuck is wrong with people’s heads, honestly, jesus fucking ronald christ [27/9/23, 1:28:23 am] Oli: I had no immediate famil [27/9/23, 1:28:32 am] Oli: But I think people’s worshiping of it is ridiculous [27/9/23, 1:28:58 am] Oli: Yes and sees much worse [27/9/23, 1:29:05 am] Sam: Or just using it like Freddie as a sort of arboreal cantilever [27/9/23, 1:29:05 am] Oli: Quite [27/9/23, 1:29:14 am] Oli: Idk he is different [27/9/23, 1:29:24 am] Oli: He is actually in that environment lol [27/9/23, 1:29:28 am] Oli: Rather than a fig leaf like me [27/9/23, 1:29:33 am] Oli: And I think loves it [27/9/23, 1:29:36 am] Sam: “I’m a Knights Templar” - christ almighty, you’re a loon, that’s what you are [27/9/23, 1:29:58 am] Oli: OMG [27/9/23, 1:29:59 am] Sam: Complete and utter basket cases [27/9/23, 1:30:01 am] Oli: IDK IF I told you this [27/9/23, 1:30:05 am] Oli: Sorry this is brilliant [27/9/23, 1:30:16 am] Oli: I actually met some random loon at an art launch [27/9/23, 1:30:23 am] Oli: Cockney cinema manager from Romford [27/9/23, 1:30:28 am] Oli: Who said his ancestors were knights Templar [27/9/23, 1:30:30 am] Sam: Yes, but the trick becomes obvious before long to any halfway intelligent person [27/9/23, 1:30:30 am] Oli: At this launch [27/9/23, 1:30:36 am] Oli: (Met Damien outside after) [27/9/23, 1:30:38 am] Sam: And eventually he may meet one [27/9/23, 1:30:47 am] Oli: Lord spencer was there [27/9/23, 1:30:51 am] Oli: This guy says to Charlie spencer [27/9/23, 1:30:59 am] Oli: ‘Moooy ancestors lords Templar royt’ [27/9/23, 1:31:07 am] Oli: Spencer says ‘how grand you are’ [27/9/23, 1:31:14 am] Oli: Hilarious upper class snobbery [27/9/23, 1:31:29 am] Sam: As I said to that Twitter loon: fucking ALL OF EUROPE practically will have ancestors who were among the fucking Knights Templar ‎[27/9/23, 1:31:34 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:31:38 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 1:31:41 am] Oli: Had me laughing [27/9/23, 1:31:43 am] Oli: I said to Charlie [27/9/23, 1:31:45 am] Oli: No joke [27/9/23, 1:31:49 am] Oli: ‘Grease the brakes next time’ [27/9/23, 1:31:51 am] Oli: He was appalled [27/9/23, 1:31:53 am] Sam: Assuming perfect genetic diversity etc etc so not quite true but very probable of most people [27/9/23, 1:31:53 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 1:32:08 am] Sam: Yes I heard! [27/9/23, 1:32:14 am] Oli: Oh god did you [27/9/23, 1:32:14 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 1:32:16 am] Oli: That’s funny [27/9/23, 1:32:27 am] Sam: Don’t think it quite made any sense of him in particular (?!) but yes! [27/9/23, 1:32:39 am] Oli: His claim to fame… [27/9/23, 1:32:40 am] Sam: Also wait sorry I’m a bit lost [27/9/23, 1:32:46 am] Sam: Grease the brakes? [27/9/23, 1:32:46 am] Oli: ‘Yah my sister married the king’ [27/9/23, 1:32:52 am] Sam: Aren’t you meant to cut the brakes? [27/9/23, 1:32:53 am] Oli: Haha his sister died in car crash [27/9/23, 1:32:55 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 1:33:04 am] Oli: Yes something like that but I was severely pissed [27/9/23, 1:33:05 am] Sam: Also he would be in the opposite camp surely?? [27/9/23, 1:33:09 am] Sam: Ah ok yes [27/9/23, 1:33:09 am] Oli: So it’s a miracle I mentioned breaks [27/9/23, 1:33:21 am] Sam: He gave the eulogy I faintly recall [27/9/23, 1:33:25 am] Oli: He’s actually a vacuous idiot [27/9/23, 1:33:33 am] Sam: Something something maybe slightly faintly anti-monarchy said [27/9/23, 1:33:39 am] Oli: Yes grandpa said I was bad to say that as the eulogy was good [27/9/23, 1:33:44 am] Oli: I don’t even know about the eulogy [27/9/23, 1:33:45 am] Oli: Didn’t watch it [27/9/23, 1:33:52 am] Sam: Of course, of the Northamptonshire branch of the Vacuous-Idiots [27/9/23, 1:33:54 am] Oli: He’s a cunt [27/9/23, 1:33:55 am] Oli: Lol [27/9/23, 1:33:59 am] Oli: He was there to be grand [27/9/23, 1:34:01 am] Oli: Madness [27/9/23, 1:34:08 am] Sam: How so? [27/9/23, 1:34:10 am] Oli: Was with his 3rd wife [27/9/23, 1:34:13 am] Sam: House is quite nice I think [27/9/23, 1:34:16 am] Oli: Oh yeah Charlie you’re so moral [27/9/23, 1:34:18 am] Sam: (Not been but seen) [27/9/23, 1:34:19 am] Oli: Third woman [27/9/23, 1:34:33 am] Oli: Lol my gt aunt married a guy who had spencer blood and they wanked over that [27/9/23, 1:34:35 am] Oli: Yea am thorp [27/9/23, 1:34:38 am] Oli: Althorp [27/9/23, 1:34:41 am] Sam: After Bathus nothing appals me [27/9/23, 1:34:44 am] Oli: Pronounced altrup [27/9/23, 1:34:45 am] Oli: Odd [27/9/23, 1:34:48 am] Oli: But looks nice [27/9/23, 1:34:49 am] Sam: Yes! [27/9/23, 1:34:50 am] Oli: Never been either [27/9/23, 1:35:02 am] Sam: Characteristically didn’t realise that! [27/9/23, 1:35:09 am] Sam: Fucking Altrincham I swear to god [27/9/23, 1:35:09 am] Oli: English snobs [27/9/23, 1:35:17 am] Oli: Omg yea [27/9/23, 1:35:19 am] Oli: I have photo [27/9/23, 1:35:22 am] Oli: I didn’t say at time [27/9/23, 1:35:26 am] Oli: Anthony grigg [27/9/23, 1:35:31 am] Oli: Your ma’s godfather [27/9/23, 1:35:37 am] Oli: I have a literal photo of him [27/9/23, 1:35:44 am] Oli: He was at Eton with grandpa’s younger brother [27/9/23, 1:35:52 am] Oli: An was family friend till he died in 2020 or so [27/9/23, 1:35:57 am] Oli: I will find and send [27/9/23, 1:36:05 am] Oli: I have it somewhere in camera roll [27/9/23, 1:36:11 am] Sam: I now: - know a guy who lives in Altrincham - who has corrected me - also know you with your connection - who have somehow corrected me over text - also the guy is (or _was_ I think) my mum’s godpa - about which my grandma has also corrected my pronunciation And I still pronounce it alltrinchum ‎ [27/9/23, 1:36:29 am] Oli: We went to tamariu with them [27/9/23, 1:36:35 am] Oli: He and eliane his wife [27/9/23, 1:36:38 am] Oli: They weee. Wry stylish [27/9/23, 1:36:39 am] Oli: Very stylish [27/9/23, 1:36:49 am] Sam: Not saying he retired as godpa, saying he’s presumably dead [27/9/23, 1:37:01 am] Oli: Anthony was Lord altrincham ‎[27/9/23, 1:37:08 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [27/9/23, 1:37:09 am] Oli: But sort of didn’t know what to do with it [27/9/23, 1:37:10 am] Oli: Lol [27/9/23, 1:37:13 am] Oli: He was a clever guy [27/9/23, 1:37:17 am] Oli: You sent! [27/9/23, 1:37:18 am] Oli: Yes! [27/9/23, 1:37:23 am] Sam: Oh snap - yes Anthony I think she aaid there [27/9/23, 1:37:33 am] Oli: Am finding my photo [27/9/23, 1:37:35 am] Sam: She also felt the brother (the one I like) was hard done by [27/9/23, 1:37:40 am] Oli: In the 50s when one left school [27/9/23, 1:37:44 am] Sam: But I maybe picked up a slight air of preferring the Anthony guy [27/9/23, 1:37:47 am] Oli: One gave one’s house mates a portrait of oneself [27/9/23, 1:38:00 am] Oli: So I have through my gt uncle Anthony grigg’s [27/9/23, 1:38:05 am] Oli: It’s in camera roll somewhere am looking [27/9/23, 1:38:12 am] Sam: She’s a very staunch republican herself so may have tipped her towards John bit more [27/9/23, 1:38:22 am] Sam: I recall you were Team Anthony rather more than she is [27/9/23, 1:38:23 am] Oli: He was a very nice guy [27/9/23, 1:38:28 am] Oli: I’ll find you an anecdote about him [27/9/23, 1:38:30 am] Oli: From mutuals [27/9/23, 1:38:59 am] Oli: Fairly loony here, though drawing to a close. D's son & girlfriend staying here tonight - we're all going to Anthony Grigg's memorial service tomorrow (Anthony Ulick David Dundas Grigg, 3rd Baron Altrincham - splendid name!) [27/9/23, 1:39:00 am] Oli: He was sound too - I pushed him round Berlin in a wheelchair a few years ago - he hadn't been there since he guarded Hess at Spandau just after the war. He was (quite rightly) very exercised about de Valera signing the book of condolence on Hitler's death. [27/9/23, 1:39:00 am] Oli: Anthony, that is. [27/9/23, 1:39:28 am] Sam: Yeah I didn’t quite capture it in that video (because naturally one only starts sneak-filming after the good stuff’s been said) but my grandma seemed very warm / fond in what she said about him [27/9/23, 1:39:31 am] Sam: Reading now [27/9/23, 1:39:37 am] Sam: But yeah strikingly so [27/9/23, 1:39:43 am] Oli: Send to granny or so if you want [27/9/23, 1:39:50 am] Sam: Oh shit he died recently then? [27/9/23, 1:39:57 am] Sam: She may well not know [27/9/23, 1:40:18 am] Sam: Interesting! [27/9/23, 1:40:43 am] Sam: Yes Irish separatists, like Indians, uncomfortably tied up with Nazis ‎[27/9/23, 1:40:44 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:40:51 am] Oli: Trying to find Anthony grigg [27/9/23, 1:40:55 am] Oli: He was handsome [27/9/23, 1:40:58 am] Oli: I have him somewhere [27/9/23, 1:41:11 am] Oli: You can send photo to family [27/9/23, 1:41:13 am] Sam: When did he die?? [27/9/23, 1:41:15 am] Oli: I’ll find I hope [27/9/23, 1:41:18 am] Oli: 2020 I think [27/9/23, 1:41:23 am] Sam: Ah shit [27/9/23, 1:41:32 am] Sam: You didn’t see my grandma there? Haha I suppose you’d not remember [27/9/23, 1:41:35 am] Sam: How big was the service? [27/9/23, 1:41:47 am] Sam: I should tell her - I should hope she’d know but she may not [27/9/23, 1:41:47 am] Oli: No but maybe she was [27/9/23, 1:41:50 am] Oli: Was fairly big [27/9/23, 1:42:05 am] Sam: She’s quite a social butterfly tho and there’s a good chance she’d have heard and prob gone by the sounds of it [27/9/23, 1:42:13 am] Oli: He had French wife [27/9/23, 1:42:14 am] Oli: She’s alive still [27/9/23, 1:42:16 am] Sam: She’s considerably more socially active than I am, haha [27/9/23, 1:42:16 am] Oli: Eliane [27/9/23, 1:42:23 am] Sam: Even than my sister, who’s socially active [27/9/23, 1:42:43 am] Sam: (I’ve told you about her constant ‘out with the Hoares’ gaffes) [27/9/23, 1:42:59 am] Sam: Ah ok - didn’t get that far into discussing him with grnadma [27/9/23, 1:43:08 am] Sam: And we were mostly on about monarchy [27/9/23, 1:43:09 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 1:43:16 am] Oli: My cousin married a Hoare [27/9/23, 1:43:18 am] Oli: The bankers [27/9/23, 1:43:20 am] Oli: That’s hilarious [27/9/23, 1:43:21 am] Sam: But she did seem very fond of the Anthony chap [27/9/23, 1:43:22 am] Oli: Gaffe [27/9/23, 1:43:31 am] Oli: Yes he was a nice man by all accounts [27/9/23, 1:43:35 am] Sam: Do they know any who live in Cambridge? [27/9/23, 1:43:44 am] Sam: I think the man died not that long ago (well, a few years ago) [27/9/23, 1:43:45 am] Oli: They prob do I don’t [27/9/23, 1:43:47 am] Sam: Big house in Cambridge [27/9/23, 1:44:02 am] Sam: Left a big legacy to something or other - like, big chunk of his money, but can’t remember what [27/9/23, 1:44:08 am] Oli: Cousin Penelope MANDER married first Loder (step granny of Floreat I took Slape to LOL) and then Hosre [27/9/23, 1:44:09 am] Sam: University library or summat like that maybe? [27/9/23, 1:44:10 am] Oli: Hoare [27/9/23, 1:44:12 am] Sam: Or actually maybe church [27/9/23, 1:44:15 am] Sam: No it was church [27/9/23, 1:44:22 am] Oli: Hmm [27/9/23, 1:44:26 am] Sam: He was a big Xtian and left a load of money to some church [27/9/23, 1:44:27 am] Oli: They are probably a big family [27/9/23, 1:44:36 am] Sam: Anyway [27/9/23, 1:44:43 am] Oli: Lol you wouldn’t believe this [27/9/23, 1:44:48 am] Sam: Yes I recall name [27/9/23, 1:44:49 am] Sam: Ned [27/9/23, 1:44:51 am] Oli: Am going through pics trying to find grigg [27/9/23, 1:44:52 am] Sam: What? [27/9/23, 1:44:54 am] Oli: Ned Loder yes [27/9/23, 1:45:00 am] Oli: He is fun a bit pompous but fun [27/9/23, 1:45:06 am] Sam: Yes it’s a pastime of mine! [27/9/23, 1:45:19 am] Oli: You have a good memory [27/9/23, 1:45:24 am] Sam: Well at least he has pomp [27/9/23, 1:45:36 am] Sam: Compensates for the probably nothing else [27/9/23, 1:45:55 am] Sam: Thanks! It’s a few years old now [27/9/23, 1:46:56 am] Sam: Actually wait no I think she must be aware, and probably was there, because of the conspicuous past tense in what she says in that film [27/9/23, 1:47:14 am] Sam: It’s not quite ‘was’ merely in that way we all say ‘was’ even when the person is still alive [27/9/23, 1:47:19 am] Oli: To be godparent presumably they knew him quite well [27/9/23, 1:47:20 am] Sam: Or doesn’t feel it to me [27/9/23, 1:47:34 am] Sam: Yeah it sounded like it [27/9/23, 1:47:52 am] Sam: Sounded like they grew less close but didn’t sound like she’d not have gone to the funeral [27/9/23, 1:47:53 am] Sam: Also awfully [27/9/23, 1:47:57 am] Sam: I didn’t mention this [27/9/23, 1:48:05 am] Sam: Because less proud than Grifg story [27/9/23, 1:48:27 am] Oli: Am Trying to bloody ring grigg [27/9/23, 1:48:27 am] Oli: Find [27/9/23, 1:48:30 am] Sam: Apparently my grandfather knew jack’s grandfather, Eve Bear [27/9/23, 1:48:41 am] Sam: Whom I do not like from what I’ve read [27/9/23, 1:48:46 am] Sam: Wakefield I mean [27/9/23, 1:48:50 am] Oli: got him [27/9/23, 1:49:08 am] Sam: LOL ‎[27/9/23, 1:49:12 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:49:16 am] Sam: Good luck!!! [27/9/23, 1:49:16 am] Oli: Now here he comes [27/9/23, 1:49:23 am] Sam: Will need a terrestrial connection ‎[27/9/23, 1:49:34 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:49:37 am] Sam: Wait this needs some punctuation [27/9/23, 1:49:41 am] Oli: Anthony Grigg [27/9/23, 1:49:43 am] Oli: Show to grandma [27/9/23, 1:49:45 am] Oli: She may recognise him [27/9/23, 1:49:52 am] Sam: That’s Anthony in that photo you mean? [27/9/23, 1:49:58 am] Sam: As in he’s the younger brother grigg [27/9/23, 1:50:02 am] Oli: Lol my grandfather on right and his younger bro on left. His younger bro was house friend of Anthony [27/9/23, 1:50:03 am] Sam: But then why ‘s friend? [27/9/23, 1:50:08 am] Sam: I’m lost, I can’t parse this [27/9/23, 1:50:08 am] Oli: Younger brother who became Lord Altrincham [27/9/23, 1:50:12 am] Sam: Ohhhh I see [27/9/23, 1:50:22 am] Oli: Your grandma may recognise [27/9/23, 1:50:28 am] Oli: Can’t believe I found it [27/9/23, 1:50:32 am] Oli: Amazingly [27/9/23, 1:50:38 am] Sam: She doesn’t really do this stuff but I’ll show her next time I’m there [27/9/23, 1:50:46 am] Sam: I did finally mention the Rhodesia thing too [27/9/23, 1:50:48 am] Sam: Ken sec [27/9/23, 1:51:06 am] Oli: This is a pop outfit [27/9/23, 1:51:08 am] Oli: Lol [27/9/23, 1:51:11 am] Oli: Hilarious pomposity ‎[27/9/23, 1:51:14 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 1:51:14 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:51:30 am] Oli: Yes [27/9/23, 1:51:34 am] Oli: I have pic of him [27/9/23, 1:51:34 am] Sam: Of course my mum has to reply with the stereotypical middle aged person iMessage things that utterly nobody else uses, lmao ‎[27/9/23, 1:51:50 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:51:55 am] Oli: Evelyn Dennison Hone [27/9/23, 1:52:02 am] Oli: Last gov of N Rhodesia [27/9/23, 1:52:05 am] Oli: Zambia [27/9/23, 1:52:14 am] Oli: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Hone [27/9/23, 1:52:42 am] Sam: Sounds possible at least, judging from my mum’s reaction, and my vague impression of the kind of social/power structure of Rhodesia [27/9/23, 1:52:45 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 1:52:51 am] Sam: But will have to ask gma when I see her [27/9/23, 1:53:07 am] Sam: Aaanyway god [27/9/23, 1:53:08 am] Sam: So wait [27/9/23, 1:53:14 am] Sam: Popping several frames off the stack [27/9/23, 1:53:19 am] Sam: Who is this cousin? [27/9/23, 1:53:38 am] Oli: Which? [27/9/23, 1:53:39 am] Oli: Lol [27/9/23, 1:53:45 am] Sam: What’s his name? Or not what’s his name but do you have a photo? (I don’t really care about names except insofar as it’s a means to a photo) [27/9/23, 1:53:45 am] Oli: Yes! [27/9/23, 1:53:53 am] Sam: Which is a means to one’s soul [27/9/23, 1:54:08 am] Sam: Eg Kieran’s Instagram [27/9/23, 1:54:18 am] Oli: My cousin I live with [27/9/23, 1:54:23 am] Oli: Dating [27/9/23, 1:54:23 am] Oli: Odd [27/9/23, 1:54:25 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 1:54:26 am] Oli: Scary concept [27/9/23, 1:54:28 am] Oli: Madness [27/9/23, 1:54:30 am] Oli: 🥸 [27/9/23, 1:54:32 am] Oli: Or another one [27/9/23, 1:54:37 am] Oli: ? [27/9/23, 1:54:44 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 1:54:55 am] Oli: Oh yes ‎[27/9/23, 1:55:04 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:55:10 am] Oli: This [27/9/23, 1:55:17 am] Sam: That one [27/9/23, 1:55:18 am] Oli: Not sure if that’s one you mean [27/9/23, 1:55:23 am] Sam: Oh he’s hot [27/9/23, 1:55:26 am] Sam: No way [27/9/23, 1:55:29 am] Oli: Ah yes the Question-Marks [27/9/23, 1:55:37 am] Sam: Ok I can understand that [27/9/23, 1:55:48 am] Sam: And this is his family home ‎[27/9/23, 1:55:51 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 1:55:53 am] Sam: In Bayswater [27/9/23, 1:55:53 am] Oli: Can add him [27/9/23, 1:55:56 am] Oli: On social media [27/9/23, 1:55:57 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 1:56:00 am] Oli: Yes near Bayswater [27/9/23, 1:56:15 am] Sam: (Sorry, it’s a favourite pastime of mine, telling people who live in Notting Hill that they live in Bayswater) [27/9/23, 1:56:25 am] Oli: He used to work at the champion pub [27/9/23, 1:56:27 am] Oli: Which is Bayswater [27/9/23, 1:56:28 am] Sam: (Sometimes for fun I switch it up and do Ladbroke Grove) [27/9/23, 1:56:29 am] Oli: Opposite KPG [27/9/23, 1:56:31 am] Oli: 🤣 [27/9/23, 1:56:35 am] Oli: Lol he is Ladbroke grofe [27/9/23, 1:56:39 am] Sam: Ah yes great story with Phil there [27/9/23, 1:56:39 am] Oli: Grofe [27/9/23, 1:56:46 am] Oli: Well used to be st Helen’s gardens [27/9/23, 1:56:46 am] Sam: We were walking along Queensway once [27/9/23, 1:56:52 am] Sam: Ie echt Bayswater [27/9/23, 1:56:55 am] Oli: His parents now basset rd [27/9/23, 1:56:57 am] Oli: Yes LOL [27/9/23, 1:57:02 am] Oli: Near your old Paddington haunt [27/9/23, 1:57:04 am] Sam: And he said “this is near where I grew up!” [27/9/23, 1:57:06 am] Sam: I said where [27/9/23, 1:57:14 am] Sam: He said “Kensington Palace Gardens” [27/9/23, 1:57:16 am] Sam: lol [27/9/23, 1:57:20 am] Sam: Very sheepishly [27/9/23, 1:57:28 am] Sam: (They’d lived there first apaz) [27/9/23, 1:57:44 am] Sam: It was a long stroll from his house, but yeah incidentally near there [27/9/23, 1:57:47 am] Sam: Also on our strolls [27/9/23, 1:57:56 am] Sam: I remember being very impressed that he knew all the homeless guys by name [27/9/23, 1:58:01 am] Sam: And thought that was very seeet of him [27/9/23, 1:58:08 am] Sam: Eventually realised that he’d probably scored heroin off them [27/9/23, 1:58:09 am] Oli: My god [27/9/23, 1:58:18 am] Oli: Oh [27/9/23, 1:58:24 am] Sam: Haha exactly [27/9/23, 1:58:29 am] Sam: But nah I may be wrong [27/9/23, 1:58:38 am] Sam: It would also be pretty in line with Phil’s personality [27/9/23, 1:58:59 am] Sam: This slightly faintly at-a-high-intellectual-level somehow vaguely irksome thing of “we’re all the same!” [27/9/23, 1:59:11 am] Sam: Hard to articulate why that irks me [27/9/23, 1:59:22 am] Sam: But it boils down to “…yeah but you’re not, really, are you?” ‎[27/9/23, 2:00:07 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 2:00:15 am] Sam: As I once put it when angry at him ^ [27/9/23, 2:00:41 am] Oli: Yes I know what you mean [27/9/23, 2:00:47 am] Oli: Trying to be egalitarian [27/9/23, 2:00:53 am] Oli: Wire [27/9/23, 2:01:00 am] Sam: (Still proud of that ‘other white friend’ line which I think was the perfect mots justes for Phil’s weird BLM and ‘please no one ever mention the money’ thing) [27/9/23, 2:01:01 am] Oli: Quite [27/9/23, 2:01:12 am] Oli: Sums up most public school students [27/9/23, 2:01:34 am] Sam: To be fair to him, he is giving away his inheritance, for real, so he’s not a bad person [27/9/23, 2:01:50 am] Sam: Still keeping more than most people have, but a very tiny fraction and not huge money [27/9/23, 2:01:55 am] Sam: A couple dozen million [27/9/23, 2:02:07 am] Sam: Complex morally to say the least [27/9/23, 2:02:41 am] Sam: (On that note, Jeff Bezos’s ex-wife is a fucking mensch - been following her donations and I have huge respect) ‎[27/9/23, 2:02:48 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 2:02:53 am] Oli: How much? [27/9/23, 2:02:59 am] Oli: Oh I see well that’s good [27/9/23, 2:03:04 am] Sam: I never like to give people credit for such things because they’re usually PR-wheedling assholes, but she’s the real deal [27/9/23, 2:03:05 am] Oli: Will he keep enough to live off? [27/9/23, 2:03:17 am] Sam: That’s the couple dozen million [27/9/23, 2:03:27 am] Sam: (My god! Imagine!) [27/9/23, 2:03:36 am] Sam: Oh no way! Where in Sri Lanka? [27/9/23, 2:03:44 am] Oli: Better than most of those mega rich [27/9/23, 2:03:47 am] Sam: If you know any Sri Lankans there’s a very very good chance there’s a connection [27/9/23, 2:03:58 am] Oli: LOL I know none it’s a weird tourist place [27/9/23, 2:04:00 am] Oli: Tangalle [27/9/23, 2:04:03 am] Sam: My grandma is enormously well connected and several cousins are former PMs or whatever they’re called degree [27/9/23, 2:04:06 am] Sam: There*, not degree ‎[27/9/23, 2:04:40 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 2:04:46 am] Sam: She’s always saying in very amusingly judgemental ways “oh yes, [ronald (can’t remember names rn but it’ll come to me)] was a bit of a limp man, wasn’t he” [27/9/23, 2:04:47 am] Oli: Interesting [27/9/23, 2:04:49 am] Oli: Ceylon [27/9/23, 2:04:57 am] Sam: And then you look it up and it’s some national hero statesman or whatever lll [27/9/23, 2:04:58 am] Sam: lol [27/9/23, 2:05:03 am] Oli: Wuite [27/9/23, 2:05:07 am] Oli: Quite [27/9/23, 2:05:18 am] Sam: The fuck was the guy’s fucking name that I’m thinking of [27/9/23, 2:05:24 am] Sam: It was a limp sounding name [27/9/23, 2:05:34 am] Sam: Geoffrey or Andrew or something [27/9/23, 2:05:41 am] Sam: (They often have quite English names) [27/9/23, 2:05:51 am] Sam: I mean the Tamils were the ones favoured by the English [27/9/23, 2:05:56 am] Sam: And more anglicised iirc [27/9/23, 2:06:06 am] Sam: So the tigers were basically throwing their toys out of the pram [27/9/23, 2:06:25 am] Sam: Though what happened to them (and more crucially civilians) was an outrage no matter what [27/9/23, 2:06:56 am] Sam: I love that no one clocks me as Sri Lankan (or at least lots don’t clock me as Asian at all) and so I can have interactions like …. [one sec] [27/9/23, 2:07:43 am] Oli: Yes I had a cousin kidnapped by the tigers [27/9/23, 2:07:53 am] Oli: I have the book here I’ll find [27/9/23, 2:07:57 am] Oli: Did your family have tigers links ‎[27/9/23, 2:08:33 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 2:08:40 am] Sam: Fucking WhatsApp [27/9/23, 2:09:05 am] Sam: Do you see the ‘forwarded from’ text there? I swear to god why the fuck does it randomly not come up, and then I have to explain the fucking content of the message all over again [27/9/23, 2:09:16 am] Sam: But yeah, it’s fun, that ‎[27/9/23, 2:09:27 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 2:09:43 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 2:10:15 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 2:10:42 am] Sam: Oh that was unusually slow for them [27/9/23, 2:10:42 am] Oli: You met her granddaughter lol [27/9/23, 2:10:47 am] Oli: My cousin Honor [27/9/23, 2:10:52 am] Sam: I’ll mention it to my grandma [27/9/23, 2:10:57 am] Sam: She staunchly supported them [27/9/23, 2:11:05 am] Oli: Who [redacted] but only because she looked masculine enough [27/9/23, 2:11:09 am] Oli: 3rd cousin [27/9/23, 2:11:11 am] Oli: She’s a loon [27/9/23, 2:11:13 am] Sam: And my great grandpa (her father) was in some quiet way involved in their founding iirc [27/9/23, 2:11:18 am] Oli: Maybe she met her [27/9/23, 2:11:18 am] Sam: Uhhhhh [27/9/23, 2:11:26 am] Oli: Like Wallis Simpson [27/9/23, 2:11:42 am] Sam: The one who married whatshisface? [27/9/23, 2:11:52 am] Sam: Not following you here [27/9/23, 2:11:54 am] Oli: LOL yes [27/9/23, 2:11:55 am] Sam: lol [27/9/23, 2:12:00 am] Oli: King Edward [27/9/23, 2:12:02 am] Sam: Whatshisface III [27/9/23, 2:12:03 am] Oli: Viii [27/9/23, 2:12:08 am] Sam: Oh right [27/9/23, 2:12:10 am] Oli: When you met honor she was with an abusive bf [27/9/23, 2:12:11 am] Oli: I remember [27/9/23, 2:12:14 am] Sam: Whatshisface Whatshisnumber [27/9/23, 2:12:14 am] Oli: We came to yours [27/9/23, 2:12:20 am] Oli: With Raz [27/9/23, 2:12:27 am] Sam: Oh strange, he must’ve been very small [27/9/23, 2:12:34 am] Oli: Yes he was a Mong [27/9/23, 2:12:42 am] Oli: She had him arrested once LOL for domestic abuse [27/9/23, 2:12:48 am] Sam: Wait he was actually there? I was sorta joking but maybe he was [27/9/23, 2:12:50 am] Sam: I don’t recall much [27/9/23, 2:12:50 am] Oli: Was in her place in embassy gardens [27/9/23, 2:12:55 am] Oli: I remember when the cockney coppers arrived it was hilarious [27/9/23, 2:13:02 am] Oli: Yes LOL but not at Raz’s [27/9/23, 2:13:08 am] Oli: He was trying to find where we went [27/9/23, 2:13:12 am] Sam: Haha why?? [27/9/23, 2:13:22 am] Sam: Sounds marginally less than hilarious, lol [27/9/23, 2:13:28 am] Oli: Lol they were idiots with a superficial acquaintance with the la [27/9/23, 2:13:38 am] Oli: I was pissed so asked them if they could truncheon me [27/9/23, 2:13:43 am] Sam: You already said they were policemen ^ [27/9/23, 2:13:49 am] Oli: And they said ‘we’re here to deal with the incident sir’ [27/9/23, 2:14:02 am] Oli: So in the end the abusive bf of hers got cuffed and hopefully buttered [27/9/23, 2:14:05 am] Oli: Very jealous [27/9/23, 2:14:07 am] Sam: As an aside: I find it so weird how all emergency services people have the same exact manner [27/9/23, 2:14:07 am] Oli: Buffered [27/9/23, 2:14:12 am] Oli: They were idiots LOL [27/9/23, 2:14:13 am] Sam: This very particular way of talking [27/9/23, 2:14:16 am] Oli: Buggered [27/9/23, 2:14:20 am] Oli: Yes think they’re trained [27/9/23, 2:14:21 am] Sam: I was remarking on it to Damien the other day ‎[27/9/23, 2:14:46 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [27/9/23, 2:14:49 am] Oli: I was quite disgraceful actuslly [27/9/23, 2:14:52 am] Sam: Very strange [27/9/23, 2:14:58 am] Oli: Hilarious but they didn’t even search the flat [27/9/23, 2:15:05 am] Oli: Otherwise they would’ve found all the drugs [27/9/23, 2:15:08 am] Oli: They just took the man away [27/9/23, 2:15:11 am] Oli: And did the paperwork [27/9/23, 2:15:16 am] Oli: Welcome to the. 21st century [27/9/23, 2:15:37 am] Sam: Yeah they’re fucking useless [27/9/23, 2:15:44 am] Sam: Literally the other day: [27/9/23, 2:15:48 am] Sam: I had my bag stolen [27/9/23, 2:15:51 am] Sam: Reported to the police [27/9/23, 2:16:15 am] Oli: LOL fire engine [27/9/23, 2:16:16 am] Oli: Madness [27/9/23, 2:16:19 am] Sam: In my police report, accidentally named my aunt as the main suspect (I'd meant to list her in the 'witnesses' section) with a very detailed description [27/9/23, 2:16:32 am] Sam: Struggled to withdraw that info but couldn't [27/9/23, 2:16:52 am] Sam: And then they sent me an email saying "we regret that there is not enough evidence to find a lead" or words to that effect [27/9/23, 2:17:22 am] Sam: Like, I LITERALLY TOLD YOU WHO IT WAS [accidentally], IT WAS MY AUNT, I GAVE YOU HER FUCKING ADDRESS AND PHONE NUMBER, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU HOPELESS FUCKING MONGOLOIDS FOR [27/9/23, 2:17:39 am] Oli: ‘It’s for your own safety, sir’ ‎[27/9/23, 2:17:40 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 2:17:46 am] Oli: ‘And the safety of others’ [27/9/23, 2:17:58 am] Oli: *smacks over the head* [27/9/23, 2:18:02 am] Oli: YOUR OWN SAFETY! [27/9/23, 2:18:02 am] Sam: (It was just for insurance purposes and I obv know by now that the Met only exist for the purpose of handing out CAD numbers - but still!) [27/9/23, 2:18:26 am] Sam: They are staggeringly useless [27/9/23, 2:18:35 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 2:18:39 am] Oli: new year’s eve [27/9/23, 2:18:40 am] Oli: 2022 [27/9/23, 2:18:43 am] Sam: Every time I say this, I have a pang of guilt because i remember the few very sweet policemen I've come across in my time [27/9/23, 2:18:43 am] Oli: My cousin was booked [27/9/23, 2:18:45 am] Oli: For cooooke driving [27/9/23, 2:18:47 am] Oli: Hilarious [27/9/23, 2:18:53 am] Sam: So with that in mind: there are some good people in the Met [27/9/23, 2:18:53 am] Oli: We were on way back to nottinghill [27/9/23, 2:18:58 am] Oli: And we had the same cockney speel there [27/9/23, 2:18:59 am] Sam: But they presumably don't stay for long [27/9/23, 2:19:05 am] Oli: ‘It’s for everyone’s safety sir’ [27/9/23, 2:19:10 am] Oli: They have a programmed way of speaking [27/9/23, 2:19:18 am] Oli: It’s quite hilarious [27/9/23, 2:19:32 am] Sam: Yeah exactly that [27/9/23, 2:19:39 am] Sam: It's more than just the voice of someone with authority [27/9/23, 2:19:51 am] Oli: LOL was my other cousin Timmy Lawson tancred who gave us both coke [27/9/23, 2:19:59 am] Oli: And after that there was a massive row [27/9/23, 2:19:59 am] Sam: It's a more inexplicably specific and exact kind of way that they ALL have in common, firemen and even to a large extent paramedics [27/9/23, 2:20:03 am] Oli: Was hilarious [27/9/23, 2:20:09 am] Sam: or a great extent or whatever kind of extent [27/9/23, 2:20:13 am] Oli: The copper just said ‘it’s the law mate’ [27/9/23, 2:20:16 am] Oli: What an inarticulate Mong [27/9/23, 2:20:20 am] Sam: Oh yes the one with the short face [27/9/23, 2:20:32 am] Oli: I will find [27/9/23, 2:20:34 am] Oli: Rhebmesssges LOL ‎[27/9/23, 2:20:38 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 2:20:53 am] Oli: Yes [27/9/23, 2:20:55 am] Oli: Pretty boy [27/9/23, 2:20:56 am] Sam: Your boyfriend is far better looking i think [27/9/23, 2:20:58 am] Oli: He is closeted pouf [27/9/23, 2:21:03 am] Sam: God what the fuck is up with... [27/9/23, 2:21:08 am] Sam: ... i was just thinking ... [27/9/23, 2:21:09 am] Oli: LOL people must be [27/9/23, 2:21:30 am] Sam: ... like, de gustibus and all that, how non it's disputandum ... ‎[27/9/23, 2:21:41 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 2:21:42 am] Sam: ... and then thence about Damien's taste in guys ... [27/9/23, 2:21:49 am] Oli: Ilarious the post arrest drug thoughts [27/9/23, 2:21:54 am] Oli: Madness he blames Mr Timmy [27/9/23, 2:21:55 am] Sam: ... and why tf is he attracted to men who look like they run a newsagent in Reigate? [27/9/23, 2:22:03 am] Oli: OMG [27/9/23, 2:22:06 am] Oli: I thought the same [27/9/23, 2:22:07 am] Oli: That’s funny [27/9/23, 2:22:25 am] Sam: This is the boyfriend [27/9/23, 2:22:27 am] Sam: ? [27/9/23, 2:22:30 am] Sam: why is he apologising? [27/9/23, 2:22:32 am] Oli: Yes the nutter [27/9/23, 2:22:34 am] Sam: you are very fucking lucky [27/9/23, 2:22:38 am] Sam: haha [27/9/23, 2:22:44 am] Sam: maddening [27/9/23, 2:22:47 am] Oli: Because he was embarrsssed I had to sit through the police sorting this madness out I supppse [27/9/23, 2:22:54 am] Oli: I wanted to go to sleep [27/9/23, 2:22:56 am] Oli: 🤣 [27/9/23, 2:23:02 am] Sam: Oh I see - was it specially his fault?! [27/9/23, 2:23:17 am] Oli: Well drug driving the offence [27/9/23, 2:23:18 am] Oli: Legally yes [27/9/23, 2:23:26 am] Sam: Wait ok lemme re-read [27/9/23, 2:23:31 am] Sam: sorry lol [27/9/23, 2:23:34 am] Oli: Maybe not technically as Mr Lawson Tancred forced him t’ sniff the coke [27/9/23, 2:23:35 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 2:23:53 am] Sam: To be perfectly frank I would expostulate with this somewhat [27/9/23, 2:24:01 am] Sam: Oh wait it seems I did [27/9/23, 2:24:02 am] Sam: Ok good [27/9/23, 2:24:05 am] Sam: Covered that base [27/9/23, 2:24:09 am] Oli: Lovely Timmy [27/9/23, 2:24:16 am] Oli: Lol he is like Freddie [27/9/23, 2:24:17 am] Oli: Closeted [27/9/23, 2:24:21 am] Sam: Sorry, I don't remember things from 30 seconds ago but in 7 years and 30 seconds I'll remember it crystal clear [27/9/23, 2:24:45 am] Sam: Oh you mean this guy was driving [27/9/23, 2:24:46 am] Sam: ah ok i see [27/9/23, 2:24:52 am] Oli: LOL yes [27/9/23, 2:24:52 am] Sam: the cousin thing is confusing [27/9/23, 2:24:54 am] Oli: Banned for a year [27/9/23, 2:25:04 am] Sam: given everyone who's not one's brother or sister is one's cousin in some way, lol [27/9/23, 2:25:04 am] Oli: He’s banned until Jan-feb [27/9/23, 2:25:20 am] Oli: Lol Timmy is my cousin because his granny is a Rous, related family [27/9/23, 2:25:39 am] Oli: The bf is cousin as his gt gt grandpa was my Gt gt granny’s brother [27/9/23, 2:25:45 am] Oli: There’s too much inbreeding [27/9/23, 2:25:53 am] Oli: It’s mad [27/9/23, 2:25:56 am] Oli: Irish [27/9/23, 2:26:10 am] Sam: I think I would just call these people ‘other human beings’ haha [27/9/23, 2:26:14 am] Oli: Lol he was in the same house as Freddie [27/9/23, 2:26:20 am] Sam: Which is the advantage of not keeping up with family trees! [27/9/23, 2:26:30 am] Oli: He said to Freddie once that his gt granny was grander than the lennoxes [27/9/23, 2:26:34 am] Oli: Which is technically true [27/9/23, 2:26:45 am] Oli: As Cavendish-Bentinck [27/9/23, 2:26:53 am] Oli: One of them was queen mum’s granny [27/9/23, 2:26:57 am] Oli: But Freddie is just hubristic [27/9/23, 2:26:58 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 2:27:17 am] Oli: Yes [27/9/23, 2:27:20 am] Oli: It’s my problem really [27/9/23, 2:27:27 am] Oli: In my defence I had no close immediate family [27/9/23, 2:27:29 am] Sam: Oh that’s nothing, my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandpa had the best mammoth hides [27/9/23, 2:27:32 am] Oli: So got trapped in introspection [27/9/23, 2:27:35 am] Oli: But yes 🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 2:27:43 am] Oli: Mammoth Hides! [27/9/23, 2:27:45 am] Oli: You win [27/9/23, 2:27:51 am] Sam: And I’m a Knights Templar [27/9/23, 2:28:03 am] Oli: I love this [27/9/23, 2:28:09 am] Oli: Wtf actually the knights Templar [27/9/23, 2:28:11 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 2:28:17 am] Oli: People actually think that’s something [27/9/23, 2:28:19 am] Oli: It’s funny [27/9/23, 2:28:35 am] Sam: A Vane-Tempest-Slape-Royal-Tucci-Robinson-Adams-Grosvenor-Square-Emerson-Mussolini-Knights-Templar-Mammothslayer [27/9/23, 2:28:42 am] Oli: You are more humanistically in tune than I [27/9/23, 2:28:47 am] Oli: Maybe one day I will be there [27/9/23, 2:28:48 am] Oli: Omg [27/9/23, 2:28:56 am] Sam: As I said to him, not even a fucking family even when it existed [27/9/23, 2:28:56 am] Oli: You know vane tempest [27/9/23, 2:29:02 am] Oli: You are au fait LOL 😈 [27/9/23, 2:29:06 am] Oli: Clocked [27/9/23, 2:29:08 am] Sam: ^ [27/9/23, 2:29:08 am] Oli: Irish family [27/9/23, 2:29:09 am] Oli: Funny [27/9/23, 2:29:22 am] Sam: I was copying a previous joke version of my name from the slape chat! [27/9/23, 2:29:32 am] Sam: Just searched Robinson Adams grosvenor [27/9/23, 2:29:36 am] Oli: Saxe Coburg lol [27/9/23, 2:29:43 am] Oli: Yes you are actually related [27/9/23, 2:29:44 am] Sam: Can’t recall vague Templars [27/9/23, 2:29:53 am] Oli: If that thing I looked up is true [27/9/23, 2:29:54 am] Oli: Haha [27/9/23, 2:29:59 am] Sam: We all are!! [27/9/23, 2:30:14 am] Oli: My plankton were posher than yours mate [27/9/23, 2:30:16 am] Oli: 😈😈 [27/9/23, 2:30:17 am] Sam: We’re the extended LUCAson family [27/9/23, 2:30:25 am] Oli: LOL someone actually made that joke once [27/9/23, 2:30:32 am] Sam: Funnily enough my grandma was talking recently about Sri Lankan surnames [27/9/23, 2:30:35 am] Sam: Or Ceylon [27/9/23, 2:30:47 am] Sam: She only ever says ‘Sri Lanka’ with a slight eye-rolling tone [27/9/23, 2:30:49 am] Sam: Anyway [27/9/23, 2:30:57 am] Sam: Was saying that the custom is that every child gets a new surname [27/9/23, 2:31:07 am] Sam: And that people just have to _know_ who’s connected to whom [27/9/23, 2:31:14 am] Sam: (You’d make a good Sri Lankan, incidentally) [27/9/23, 2:31:59 am] Sam: And that one part of her family had gone Catholic and adopted English customs for surnames, and certain sisters went certain ways etc etc, but she had kept I think the Sri Lankan custom [27/9/23, 2:32:14 am] Sam: But yeah totally wild - even in one generation each kid gets a totally random custom surname, haha [27/9/23, 2:32:16 am] Oli: lol [27/9/23, 2:32:24 am] Oli: Unlike sex pest Ratnam [27/9/23, 2:32:27 am] Oli: Well he’s Tamil [27/9/23, 2:32:30 am] Oli: Madras [27/9/23, 2:32:33 am] Sam: So am I [27/9/23, 2:32:40 am] Oli: He fucked me once [27/9/23, 2:32:44 am] Oli: Then in morning [27/9/23, 2:32:47 am] Sam: But I think Sri Lankan Tamils are not really much to do with Indian Tamils [27/9/23, 2:32:51 am] Sam: Eugh [27/9/23, 2:32:52 am] Oli: Said ‘it was perfectly pleasant’ [27/9/23, 2:32:54 am] Oli: Pompous ass [27/9/23, 2:32:56 am] Oli: Indeed [27/9/23, 2:33:00 am] Oli: He’s done Damien x: [27/9/23, 2:33:02 am] Oli: X3 [27/9/23, 2:33:05 am] Oli: At least [27/9/23, 2:33:09 am] Sam: Hahaha he messaged me on Grindr and creeped on me and I politely steered it away [27/9/23, 2:33:19 am] Oli: He’s fucking annoying [27/9/23, 2:33:22 am] Oli: He gets depressed sadly [27/9/23, 2:33:23 am] Sam: (If I may say so myself, that’s actually quite a talent of mine) [27/9/23, 2:33:26 am] Oli: But his problem [27/9/23, 2:34:17 am] Sam: And, having ascertained that lascivious molestations would be a frustrate endeavour, he was actually quite sweet [27/9/23, 2:34:26 am] Sam: is [27/9/23, 2:34:31 am] Oli: He means well [27/9/23, 2:34:36 am] Oli: But can’t help himself [27/9/23, 2:34:50 am] Sam: I’m joking when I do the silly Latinate thing, just to be very clear ^^ ‎[27/9/23, 2:34:53 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 2:34:55 am] Sam: Not Ben Seatoning [27/9/23, 2:35:00 am] Oli: When he was at some mad event [27/9/23, 2:35:08 am] Sam: No he has a short face and will therefore never be attractive [27/9/23, 2:35:13 am] Oli: Omg [27/9/23, 2:35:13 am] Sam: He reminds me of certain school Jews [27/9/23, 2:35:18 am] Oli: Do you think [27/9/23, 2:35:21 am] Oli: Lol I like him [27/9/23, 2:35:24 am] Oli: But maybe that’s true [27/9/23, 2:35:28 am] Sam: No I don’t like his face [27/9/23, 2:35:31 am] Sam: He reminds me of a pug [27/9/23, 2:35:39 am] Oli: I’ve only been with him thrice [27/9/23, 2:35:40 am] Sam: But maybe this is an irrational dislike of mine [27/9/23, 2:35:47 am] Oli: But he manipulates me [27/9/23, 2:35:49 am] Oli: Emotionally [27/9/23, 2:35:50 am] Sam: Your boyfriend is cute as hell [27/9/23, 2:36:08 am] Sam: In hoc modo? [27/9/23, 2:36:11 am] Oli: Pugs are cute!! [27/9/23, 2:36:16 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 2:36:25 am] Oli: He basically tries to dominate my mind [27/9/23, 2:36:26 am] Oli: Odd [27/9/23, 2:36:31 am] Oli: He calculates it very well [27/9/23, 2:36:41 am] Sam: It’s undefended! [27/9/23, 2:36:49 am] Sam: Unoccupied [27/9/23, 2:36:51 am] Sam: Haha [27/9/23, 2:36:54 am] Sam: No sorry I’m joking [27/9/23, 2:36:56 am] Oli: Timmy lol [27/9/23, 2:37:00 am] Oli: I like him [27/9/23, 2:37:07 am] Oli: But he always pisses me off [27/9/23, 2:37:12 am] Sam: I don’t mean that in an intellectual sense so much as a … how to say [27/9/23, 2:37:16 am] Sam: It’s in abeyance [27/9/23, 2:37:18 am] Oli: As he never fucking responds to authentic I do [27/9/23, 2:37:22 am] Oli: Anything* not authentic [27/9/23, 2:37:23 am] Sam: How does he do so? [27/9/23, 2:37:26 am] Oli: But same thing [27/9/23, 2:37:32 am] Sam: ‘Responds’ in what sense [27/9/23, 2:37:37 am] Oli: And he tries to do it on his terms [27/9/23, 2:37:39 am] Sam: Also ‘do’ and ‘anything’ how? [27/9/23, 2:37:43 am] Oli: So he says haha how funny you are [27/9/23, 2:37:54 am] Oli: But then eschews invitations [27/9/23, 2:37:58 am] Sam: You give me the definite sense of having a crush on him [27/9/23, 2:38:01 am] Oli: And only when it’s on his terms can I see him [27/9/23, 2:38:08 am] Oli: Lol yes I do and did [27/9/23, 2:38:09 am] Sam: Which I don’t get but even I can pick up on [27/9/23, 2:38:11 am] Oli: But it pisses me off [27/9/23, 2:38:15 am] Oli: He is annoying [27/9/23, 2:38:16 am] Sam: Even blind Freddy, as the Australians say [27/9/23, 2:38:20 am] Sam: (Apparently they know him) [27/9/23, 2:38:29 am] Sam: Prime Minister and all [27/9/23, 2:38:38 am] Oli: Lol? [27/9/23, 2:38:38 am] Sam: On his terms in what sense? [27/9/23, 2:38:47 am] Sam: Follows him on Twitter [27/9/23, 2:38:55 am] Sam: After taking his phone etc and entering his acct ‎[27/9/23, 2:38:57 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 2:39:04 am] Oli: And THEN doesn’t fucking do anything [27/9/23, 2:39:08 am] Oli: Only one thing [27/9/23, 2:39:21 am] Sam: Well to be fair ‎[27/9/23, 2:39:27 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 2:39:32 am] Oli: Always ingratiating [27/9/23, 2:39:38 am] Sam: “Must do something soon” is British English for “I at least would like you to come to my funeral” [27/9/23, 2:39:44 am] Oli: LOL YES [27/9/23, 2:39:52 am] Oli: That was me [27/9/23, 2:39:56 am] Oli: Funnily 🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 2:40:10 am] Oli: Omg lol [27/9/23, 2:40:14 am] Sam: What on earth is he on about? [27/9/23, 2:40:20 am] Oli: I love Timmy but he pisses me off [27/9/23, 2:40:30 am] Oli: Always trying to tempt me lol [27/9/23, 2:40:32 am] Oli: Mad man [27/9/23, 2:40:37 am] Sam: Tempt? [27/9/23, 2:40:40 am] Oli: YES [27/9/23, 2:40:46 am] Oli: he always flirts [27/9/23, 2:40:54 am] Oli: And says let’s do x y z soon [27/9/23, 2:40:58 am] Oli: Fockin’ mad man [27/9/23, 2:41:03 am] Sam: Oh I see [27/9/23, 2:41:06 am] Sam: Like flirting with death [27/9/23, 2:41:09 am] Oli: Yes [27/9/23, 2:41:19 am] Oli: He isn’t allowed in the house I. Edinburgh anymore [27/9/23, 2:41:24 am] Sam: That sounds like a wild night, I haven’t even heard of some of those [27/9/23, 2:41:28 am] Oli: After getting other cousin booked for drug driving 🤣🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 2:41:31 am] Sam: Why in Edinburgh? [27/9/23, 2:41:36 am] Sam: Why would anyone go to Edinburgh? [27/9/23, 2:41:36 am] Oli: They both study there [27/9/23, 2:41:42 am] Sam: Is the Notting Hill house his family home) [27/9/23, 2:41:43 am] Oli: Both Floreats studying at Edinburgh [27/9/23, 2:41:47 am] Oli: Read: easy way of life [27/9/23, 2:41:52 am] Sam: You might’ve said and I might’ve missed your answer [27/9/23, 2:41:53 am] Oli: No they are Ulster [27/9/23, 2:42:03 am] Sam: So whose house is that? [27/9/23, 2:42:04 am] Oli: But Notting Hill is his father’s main home [27/9/23, 2:42:10 am] Sam: I somehow suspect not his [27/9/23, 2:42:15 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 2:42:19 am] Sam: Ah ok I see yeah [27/9/23, 2:42:22 am] Oli: His father is tonsured [27/9/23, 2:42:31 am] Oli: Scary as he has inchoate tonsure [27/9/23, 2:42:33 am] Oli: Wait [27/9/23, 2:42:34 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 2:42:36 am] Sam: Only bc of the tangential sounding connection to London [27/9/23, 2:42:53 am] Sam: Ok I must go [27/9/23, 2:42:57 am] Sam: Do some work etc [27/9/23, 2:43:03 am] Sam: My only remaining question was [27/9/23, 2:43:10 am] Sam: (quand on parle du loup) ‎[27/9/23, 2:43:12 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 2:43:18 am] Oli: This is scary [27/9/23, 2:43:21 am] Sam: do you actually need to work? what the fuck is going on? [27/9/23, 2:43:24 am] Sam: with life etc [27/9/23, 2:43:26 am] Oli: Oh lol [27/9/23, 2:43:30 am] Sam: are you planning one? [27/9/23, 2:43:33 am] Oli: I am mentally unwell probably [27/9/23, 2:43:46 am] Oli: I just live off my grandpa who is generous atm [27/9/23, 2:43:47 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 2:43:51 am] Sam: sorry I don't mean to be rude - trying to be more .. blunt and exuberant [27/9/23, 2:44:07 am] Oli: And xander gives me money too [27/9/23, 2:44:09 am] Oli: Victorian wife [27/9/23, 2:44:11 am] Sam: Is he going to be a generous atm in future? [27/9/23, 2:44:12 am] Oli: That’s normal [27/9/23, 2:44:22 am] Oli: Well I suppose when he drops off [27/9/23, 2:44:26 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 2:44:32 am] Sam: What the fuck is up with this situation [27/9/23, 2:44:33 am] Sam: lol [27/9/23, 2:44:36 am] Sam: jesus christ [27/9/23, 2:44:46 am] Sam: you really should buy a lottery ticket [27/9/23, 2:45:06 am] Sam: he seems like an extraordinarily good egg and even then you're fucking lucky [27/9/23, 2:45:06 am] Oli: Tangential yes they are northern Irish but came to England in 20s. Northampton but not hill was his father’s place [27/9/23, 2:45:14 am] Oli: Lol he is rich [27/9/23, 2:45:21 am] Oli: His father is some sort of clever money man [27/9/23, 2:45:22 am] Sam: Not casting aspersions on you, don't mean it that way [27/9/23, 2:45:32 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 2:45:40 am] Oli: I’d buy the wrong ticket knowing my luck [27/9/23, 2:45:42 am] Sam: But he's very gorgeous and very kind and very rich and maybe some other stuff at this rate [27/9/23, 2:45:49 am] Oli: Yes I don’t want a reputation as a Damien [27/9/23, 2:45:59 am] Sam: He seems like a genuinely kind and sweet person in those messages [27/9/23, 2:46:00 am] Oli: Lol he is quite mentally vulnerable [27/9/23, 2:46:08 am] Sam: and he clearly likes you etc [27/9/23, 2:46:17 am] Sam: I'm very envious [27/9/23, 2:46:43 am] Oli: Lol well I get controlled a lot [27/9/23, 2:46:51 am] Sam: (nah I don't know that I seriously am - people have different kinds of fits and all that - but, still, in a less 'trying to steal your boyfriend' way, you're lucky) [27/9/23, 2:46:53 am] Oli: I have to be in Edinburgh until Christmas [27/9/23, 2:47:01 am] Sam: Controlled?! [27/9/23, 2:47:03 am] Oli: I tried to see Timmy but he is hiding [27/9/23, 2:47:08 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 2:47:13 am] Oli: Just emotionally [27/9/23, 2:47:41 am] Oli: Told to do this and that [27/9/23, 2:47:46 am] Oli: And I have to take him there and here [27/9/23, 2:47:48 am] Sam: Eh? [27/9/23, 2:47:53 am] Oli: Because he can’t drive 🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 2:47:53 am] Sam: For eg? [27/9/23, 2:48:17 am] Sam: Also I can see you have a crush on this Timmy guy and are maybe losing interest in the boyfriend but I would seriously question the wisdom of that [27/9/23, 2:48:21 am] Oli: To take him to some nice place in Scotland because he can’t drive [27/9/23, 2:48:42 am] Oli: Lol no I like xander but he is too closely related so just get familiar [27/9/23, 2:48:59 am] Oli: I am too infatuated with stupid Timmy probably [27/9/23, 2:49:09 am] Oli: As other one is the best in the long run [27/9/23, 2:49:14 am] Oli: But emotions are silly [27/9/23, 2:49:17 am] Sam: God I feel a bit like my mum when my brother got a very sweet girlfriend and then very unexpectedly (since Joe is such a sweet and nice and sensitive and generally social and likeable person) just brutally broke up with her and wasn't bothered about it [27/9/23, 2:49:21 am] Sam: Polly I think was her name [27/9/23, 2:49:27 am] Sam: And my mum was heartbroken for her, haha [27/9/23, 2:49:59 am] Sam: I really warm to him from everything you've said and sent [27/9/23, 2:50:13 am] Sam: And I know how annoying it is to have people disagree with one about matters of the heart [27/9/23, 2:50:40 am] Sam: But yeah I think 'too infatuated' (emphasis on 'too') is probably les mots justes [27/9/23, 2:50:53 am] Oli: Lol the problem of life [27/9/23, 2:51:05 am] Oli: I do love the cousin partner lol [27/9/23, 2:51:06 am] Sam: He seems genuinely nice and ... _good_ [27/9/23, 2:51:09 am] Oli: But familiarity sometimes gets boring [27/9/23, 2:51:12 am] Sam: The Xander one I mean [27/9/23, 2:51:13 am] Oli: Madness [27/9/23, 2:51:19 am] Sam: Like a good person [27/9/23, 2:51:19 am] Oli: And I think you are hot [27/9/23, 2:51:24 am] Sam: Which is fucking hard to find [27/9/23, 2:51:25 am] Oli: Not that we will Ever be something else 🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 2:51:33 am] Oli: But I have these weird feelings about people [27/9/23, 2:51:42 am] Oli: This is true [27/9/23, 2:51:49 am] Sam: Me? Thanks! I mean I think the same about you but I am more worried about your brain than your face, haha [27/9/23, 2:51:51 am] Sam: well, mind [27/9/23, 2:51:54 am] Sam: well, interests [27/9/23, 2:51:59 am] Oli: My brain haha [27/9/23, 2:52:02 am] Sam: etc haha [27/9/23, 2:52:03 am] Oli: Interesting point [27/9/23, 2:52:09 am] Sam: You've definitely got the picture already [27/9/23, 2:52:10 am] Oli: Why worried [27/9/23, 2:52:21 am] Oli: I tried to broach this subject with you yesterday haa [27/9/23, 2:52:24 am] Oli: About why we use drugs [27/9/23, 2:52:29 am] Oli: I feel very trapped [27/9/23, 2:52:30 am] Oli: It’s odd [27/9/23, 2:52:37 am] Oli: In my mental state [27/9/23, 2:52:41 am] Sam: Shit, sorry, ok, let me clear my head, one sec [27/9/23, 2:52:43 am] Sam: Have a sip of tea [27/9/23, 2:52:47 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 2:52:48 am] Sam: I like this side of you [27/9/23, 2:52:53 am] Sam: A lot more [27/9/23, 2:52:54 am] Oli: I don’t want to be hyperbolic [27/9/23, 2:52:58 am] Sam: Trapped? Why? [27/9/23, 2:53:04 am] Oli: As opposed to my heil Himmler side [27/9/23, 2:53:07 am] Sam: Nah say what you feel [27/9/23, 2:53:12 am] Oli: Well that is obviously a front [27/9/23, 2:53:15 am] Sam: Yes please less [27/9/23, 2:53:16 am] Oli: Why would anyone do that? [27/9/23, 2:53:21 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 2:53:46 am] Sam: I mean I realise that, haha, I suppose it's not really imaginable to anyone that it's anything else [27/9/23, 2:53:56 am] Sam: Just a bit much to be plausible [27/9/23, 2:54:03 am] Oli: Some idiots think I genuinely believe that [27/9/23, 2:54:04 am] Sam: I mean obv it's presumably not meant to be [27/9/23, 2:54:05 am] Oli: Lol ‎[27/9/23, 2:54:44 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 2:55:14 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 2:55:12 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 2:55:22 am] Oli: He was trying to bugger me [27/9/23, 2:55:28 am] Oli: So put up with Himmler [27/9/23, 2:55:28 am] Sam: Anyway haha [27/9/23, 2:55:30 am] Oli: He’s a pouf [27/9/23, 2:55:36 am] Sam: Wait who was? Freddie? [27/9/23, 2:55:38 am] Oli: Yes back to the MAIN point [27/9/23, 2:55:41 am] Oli: Essentially [27/9/23, 2:55:41 am] Sam: Yes sorry [27/9/23, 2:55:44 am] Oli: Just flirting [27/9/23, 2:55:45 am] Oli: Madness [27/9/23, 2:55:46 am] Sam: Drugs [27/9/23, 2:55:49 am] Sam: Other stuff [27/9/23, 2:55:51 am] Oli: Well mental state [27/9/23, 2:55:52 am] Oli: Lol [27/9/23, 2:55:53 am] Sam: Deep and abiding love for me [27/9/23, 2:55:58 am] Sam: Etc [27/9/23, 2:55:59 am] Sam: Haha [27/9/23, 2:56:00 am] Oli: I have an odd connection with the world [27/9/23, 2:56:04 am] Oli: I feel incomplete [27/9/23, 2:56:11 am] Oli: No wonder I pay stupid money [27/9/23, 2:56:13 am] Sam: I can well imagine [27/9/23, 2:56:14 am] Oli: To sniff stupid coke [27/9/23, 2:56:16 am] Oli: And be an idiot [27/9/23, 2:56:19 am] Oli: Absolutely mad [27/9/23, 2:56:22 am] Sam: Sorry, no slight against you [27/9/23, 2:56:22 am] Oli: I spent about 15k [27/9/23, 2:56:27 am] Oli: Since January [27/9/23, 2:56:31 am] Oli: That’s abnormal isn’t it [27/9/23, 2:56:33 am] Sam: Wait let me do the maths [27/9/23, 2:56:35 am] Oli: Absolutely fucking mad [27/9/23, 2:56:51 am] Sam: 400 a week, give or tak [27/9/23, 2:56:53 am] Sam: e [27/9/23, 2:56:55 am] Oli: Yes [27/9/23, 2:56:57 am] Oli: Appalling [27/9/23, 2:57:09 am] Oli: And I started to put it on my tongue to reduce nasal damage [27/9/23, 2:57:12 am] Oli: It is disgraceful really [27/9/23, 2:57:15 am] Sam: How much do you pay for a gram? Because I'm not an accountant and probably by weight is the more important aspect [27/9/23, 2:57:15 am] Oli: If one thinks about it [27/9/23, 2:57:20 am] Oli: £120 [27/9/23, 2:57:28 am] Oli: £60 for a bag which is a 0.5 [27/9/23, 2:57:32 am] Sam: Basically unless the issue is with your finances themselves [27/9/23, 2:57:36 am] Oli: So £120 a gram [27/9/23, 2:57:43 am] Sam: So about 3g a week [27/9/23, 2:57:53 am] Sam: It's not wiiildly excessive [27/9/23, 2:57:57 am] Oli: Something like that [27/9/23, 2:57:59 am] Oli: But it adds up [27/9/23, 2:58:01 am] Sam: How often do you take it? [27/9/23, 2:58:06 am] Oli: Lol hence when you told me about meth [27/9/23, 2:58:15 am] Oli: And I said £150 a week good idea [27/9/23, 2:58:18 am] Oli: Or something similar [27/9/23, 2:58:19 am] Sam: I remember - I spent similar in my first and second year of uni [27/9/23, 2:58:31 am] Sam: Possibly more, factoring in shitty bars with semi-crushes and ubers hence and thither [27/9/23, 2:58:33 am] Oli: Every weekend normally [27/9/23, 2:58:37 am] Oli: This week I’ve been totally off [27/9/23, 2:58:40 am] Oli: Apart from yesterday [27/9/23, 2:58:54 am] Sam: That's not too bad - I mean at my worst with the meth it was near constant [27/9/23, 2:59:02 am] Oli: I am being mad because [27/9/23, 2:59:05 am] Sam: But even then never physical withdrawal and generally i have no serious qualms about it [27/9/23, 2:59:07 am] Oli: Sometimes I have done constant weeks [27/9/23, 2:59:08 am] Oli: On it [27/9/23, 2:59:15 am] Sam: but heroin waas near constant and i'd've thrown up if i'd not had it in teh morning [27/9/23, 2:59:20 am] Oli: I say to myself only a few lines (on a tues) [27/9/23, 2:59:21 am] Oli: Or so [27/9/23, 2:59:28 am] Sam: this is the main question yeah [27/9/23, 2:59:30 am] Oli: And it goes on whole weeks [27/9/23, 2:59:35 am] Oli: But weekends is when it increases ‎[27/9/23, 3:00:25 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 3:00:46 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 3:00:57 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 3:01:40 am] Oli: Interestijgb [27/9/23, 3:01:44 am] Sam: (Also I think you're cute and I like you - I don't know that it would necessarily work out and I also like your boyfriend (not in a "I want to go out with him instead" way, lol, but in a "I actually want you to be with him" way) but yeah I probably wouldn't necessarily not be open to it but hopefully it doesn't come to that for your sake) [27/9/23, 3:01:49 am] Oli: Yes I have similar thoughts [27/9/23, 3:01:52 am] Sam: That is quite wild [27/9/23, 3:01:59 am] Sam: Basically yeah [27/9/23, 3:02:05 am] Oli: I have always found you cute [27/9/23, 3:02:07 am] Sam: Do you ever regret taking it? [27/9/23, 3:02:08 am] Oli: Embarrassing to say lol [27/9/23, 3:02:12 am] Oli: But that’s life [27/9/23, 3:02:13 am] Sam: I suppose you're regretting it now [27/9/23, 3:02:20 am] Oli: No interestingly [27/9/23, 3:02:26 am] Sam: I only started lately haha [27/9/23, 3:02:29 am] Sam: I never found you NOT cute [27/9/23, 3:02:33 am] Sam: not in that way ‎[27/9/23, 3:03:25 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 3:02:39 am] Sam: but what I said to Freddie basically [27/9/23, 3:02:49 am] Sam: you just didn't enter that category in my mind for whatever reason [27/9/23, 3:02:57 am] Oli: Because I like it when I take it. Of course when I wake up after a sesh I feel odd but still think I liked it so it must be OK [27/9/23, 3:02:58 am] Sam: I think I actually described you as ... [27/9/23, 3:03:03 am] Sam: [let me find it lol] [27/9/23, 3:03:10 am] Oli: Re this [27/9/23, 3:03:44 am] Oli: Haha [27/9/23, 3:03:49 am] Sam: 'even mildly' at the top is bad wording because it implies that it was some sort of 'insufficiently attractive' judgement which is not what i meant [27/9/23, 3:03:50 am] Oli: I agree with mid pea graph [27/9/23, 3:03:54 am] Oli: Paragraph [27/9/23, 3:03:56 am] Sam: it wouldn't have been midlly [27/9/23, 3:04:06 am] Oli: I find it odd why people are ‘into me’ [27/9/23, 3:04:09 am] Sam: Haha this is a sweet and vulnerable side of you [27/9/23, 3:04:11 am] Sam: I like it [27/9/23, 3:04:11 am] Oli: Many more hot men out there [27/9/23, 3:04:20 am] Oli: But I suppose these people want something more [27/9/23, 3:04:26 am] Oli: And their snobbery gets the better of them [27/9/23, 3:04:36 am] Sam: No I sorta sensed you might have some kind of interest in some way [27/9/23, 3:04:49 am] Sam: Also I'm flattered by what you said! [27/9/23, 3:05:13 am] Sam: I seem to get two categories of people, which I suspect has sth to do with body/face types or whatever [27/9/23, 3:05:29 am] Oli: Haha well you are [27/9/23, 3:05:32 am] Sam: One category finds me entirely unattractive and not a prospect, and the other is besotted with me [27/9/23, 3:05:32 am] Sam: idk [27/9/23, 3:05:43 am] Oli: I am just stupidly reserved [27/9/23, 3:05:47 am] Sam: 🙈 [27/9/23, 3:05:51 am] Oli: So have odd ways of expressing this [27/9/23, 3:05:55 am] Sam: No I 100% am attracted to you [27/9/23, 3:06:12 am] Sam: I'm also concerned about the aristo stuff and then also concerned because your boyfriend seems sweet and nice [27/9/23, 3:06:15 am] Sam: and also that [27/9/23, 3:06:17 am] Sam: one sec [27/9/23, 3:06:23 am] Oli: Lol well he is my family 🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 3:06:26 am] Oli: Which is mad [27/9/23, 3:06:32 am] Oli: Aristo stuff [27/9/23, 3:06:37 am] Oli: Haha I am not really aristo [27/9/23, 3:06:43 am] Oli: On the cusp on some lines 🤣 [27/9/23, 3:07:19 am] Oli: I am landless gentry. My mother has land I suppose but haha yes [27/9/23, 3:07:35 am] Oli: I am in a stupid position. Socially it looks very good. [27/9/23, 3:07:42 am] Oli: Reality is a bit more nuanced 🤣 ‎[27/9/23, 3:08:11 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 3:08:12 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 3:08:33 am] Sam: Coulda cropped a bit more closely but oh well ‎[27/9/23, 3:09:07 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 3:09:48 am] Oli: Lol [27/9/23, 3:09:53 am] Oli: Yes it is hard for me [27/9/23, 3:10:21 am] Sam: 'Stupid' how? [27/9/23, 3:10:30 am] Sam: Like, in a materially important way? [27/9/23, 3:10:31 am] Oli: Yes I shall explain [27/9/23, 3:10:36 am] Oli: Depends hmm [27/9/23, 3:10:49 am] Sam: i.e. money or commitments or something, or just social status (which is as nothing imo) [27/9/23, 3:11:09 am] Oli: Well... [27/9/23, 3:11:14 am] Oli: I suppose we've reached that point in the evening. [27/9/23, 3:11:17 am] Oli: So straight into it. [27/9/23, 3:11:21 am] Sam: Just noticed 'an historic' there from fred, haha [27/9/23, 3:11:28 am] Sam: and don't spare the horses! [27/9/23, 3:11:51 am] Sam: freddie included [27/9/23, 3:12:26 am] Oli: Essentially, as I mostly live with grandpa... well... moving on... he's been unwell recently but now recovered, but he is mostly housebound (though last month I took him out to neighbours in the country so that's good), I get his income (he gives to me oddly) because I manage his accounts etc. power of attorney and he lets me use his card [27/9/23, 3:12:34 am] Oli: His pension is £9k a month so that is essentially my income [27/9/23, 3:12:41 am] Oli: He was chairman of Unilever etc. [27/9/23, 3:12:47 am] Oli: so essentially I have an OK income [27/9/23, 3:12:54 am] Oli: but everyone who meets me thinks I am very well set and sorted... [27/9/23, 3:13:03 am] Oli: But that's far from the case! [27/9/23, 3:13:12 am] Oli: I live in a very fucking Dickensian mindset. [27/9/23, 3:13:16 am] Oli: I am stuck to my mind [27/9/23, 3:13:32 am] Oli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Babington_Wilson grandpa lol [27/9/23, 3:13:36 am] Oli: He is a fun guy [27/9/23, 3:13:41 am] Oli: And it just irks me. [27/9/23, 3:13:48 am] Oli: I like meeting bohemian/mad/fun people [27/9/23, 3:13:51 am] Oli: BUT most of them just are chippy... [27/9/23, 3:13:55 am] Oli: And think I am some rich cunt [27/9/23, 3:13:56 am] Oli: I wish I was [27/9/23, 3:14:05 am] Sam: Jesus sorry just got stuck in Louis messages, reading now [27/9/23, 3:14:07 am] Oli: I am far from that! [27/9/23, 3:14:22 am] Oli: I had a very eccentric upbringing in the madness of Ireland [27/9/23, 3:14:30 am] Sam: I mean, first things first, I do not give a fuck myself, so don't worry on that front [27/9/23, 3:14:32 am] Oli: And no-one understands ‎[27/9/23, 3:15:03 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 3:15:22 am] Sam: ^ re looking for new flatmates [27/9/23, 3:15:27 am] Sam: anyway, continuing to read [27/9/23, 3:15:53 am] Oli: OMG [27/9/23, 3:15:54 am] Oli: was this to Damien [27/9/23, 3:15:58 am] Oli: I love this [27/9/23, 3:16:06 am] Oli: tbf I have often slept in my car lol when bored or on my own steam [27/9/23, 3:16:19 am] Oli: I did it with my godmother once on the driveway of some aristo's estate. the farmer questioned us in the morning [27/9/23, 3:16:22 am] Sam: You mean as a source of income, as an asset, as a means of staying in people's favour and all that? [27/9/23, 3:16:25 am] Oli: I love the homeless or rich as X aspect [27/9/23, 3:16:28 am] Oli: brilliant [27/9/23, 3:16:49 am] Sam: I mean, ultimately that's all we have aside from our bodies, and it's considered preferable not to rely on those although the bulk of humanity does in one way or another [27/9/23, 3:16:52 am] Oli: Yes people's favour mostly [27/9/23, 3:16:57 am] Sam: (if you broke my fingers i'd starve) [27/9/23, 3:17:03 am] Oli: The people I know are quite 'social' i.e. the social set [27/9/23, 3:17:09 am] Oli: And they are very nice but publicly odd bunch [27/9/23, 3:17:14 am] Oli: and it just irks me [27/9/23, 3:17:15 am] Sam: What does? [27/9/23, 3:17:16 am] Oli: As it's not my set [27/9/23, 3:17:21 am] Oli: It's not my scene [27/9/23, 3:17:25 am] Oli: But somehow that is that [27/9/23, 3:17:29 am] Oli: AND freddie liked it [27/9/23, 3:17:37 am] Oli: but lol they found him a bit too egalitarian [27/9/23, 3:17:39 am] Sam: 'Publicly odd'? How do you mean? [27/9/23, 3:17:41 am] Oli: 🤣 [27/9/23, 3:17:48 am] Sam: Jesus wept [27/9/23, 3:17:53 am] Oli: publicly as in they live their lives based on what others think [27/9/23, 3:17:53 am] Oli: I.E. [27/9/23, 3:17:57 am] Oli: my friend will motio [27/9/23, 3:17:58 am] Oli: n [27/9/23, 3:18:03 am] Oli: whose sister davina married george chelsea [27/9/23, 3:18:04 am] Oli: i.e. cadogan [27/9/23, 3:18:09 am] Oli: you don't hear the fucking end of it [27/9/23, 3:18:15 am] Oli: once i went to 5 hertford st [27/9/23, 3:18:18 am] Oli: and my friend said [27/9/23, 3:18:32 am] Oli: 'don't do coke in the loo. motion's sister is now viscountess chelsea. he can't have bad publicity' [27/9/23, 3:18:36 am] Oli: first of all... [27/9/23, 3:18:40 am] Oli: WHO CARES IF SOMEONE IS DOING COKE IN THE LOO? [27/9/23, 3:18:47 am] Oli: SECONDLY... WHO WILL LINK US? [27/9/23, 3:18:51 am] Oli: it just drives me insane ‎[27/9/23, 3:19:10 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 3:19:11 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 3:19:24 am] Oli: and these people one has to 'respect' [27/9/23, 3:19:27 am] Oli: because they are 'the set' [27/9/23, 3:19:28 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 3:19:39 am] Oli: omg what [27/9/23, 3:19:41 am] Oli: he wrote that [27/9/23, 3:19:43 am] Oli: he is terrible [27/9/23, 3:19:45 am] Oli: he should be more careful [27/9/23, 3:19:48 am] Oli: he will be fucking done [27/9/23, 3:19:49 am] Oli: lol [27/9/23, 3:19:55 am] Sam: (I dunno why I send so many screenshots.. I guess it’s kinda a nice proof - given it’s not really realistic to fake at least in the heat of the moment - that one believes X or Y, or at least has said it before) [27/9/23, 3:20:01 am] Oli: I didn't realise he was that loose. [27/9/23, 3:20:08 am] Oli: This is actually quite funny. [27/9/23, 3:20:21 am] Sam: Nah I'd have guessed that! [27/9/23, 3:20:24 am] Sam: Lol [27/9/23, 3:20:26 am] Oli: Saying I'd met his father... [27/9/23, 3:20:30 am] Oli: Absolute madness... [27/9/23, 3:20:30 am] Sam: I assume you mean the drugs stuff [27/9/23, 3:20:34 am] Oli: LOL if that went to someone else... [27/9/23, 3:20:36 am] Oli: That's hilarious [27/9/23, 3:20:38 am] Sam: Though I'm a bit lost! [27/9/23, 3:20:41 am] Sam: Semi-lost [27/9/23, 3:20:46 am] Sam: Like Slape's dogs [27/9/23, 3:21:03 am] Oli: About me and then he says [27/9/23, 3:21:11 am] Oli: with his name obviously registered... [27/9/23, 3:21:17 am] Oli: Oh yes my father said the same and they've met a few times. [27/9/23, 3:21:20 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 3:21:24 am] Oli: that's good for him isn't it [27/9/23, 3:21:28 am] Oli: Fucking absolute madness [27/9/23, 3:21:33 am] Oli: I worry about myself sometimes [27/9/23, 3:21:40 am] Oli: But he's a car crash waiting to happen [27/9/23, 3:21:49 am] Sam: I don't think he's really a bad person in that sense [27/9/23, 3:21:57 am] Sam: And in some ways I feel bad for what I said [27/9/23, 3:22:06 am] Oli: He is a nice person but naive. [27/9/23, 3:22:12 am] Oli: As evinced by that screenshot! [27/9/23, 3:22:46 am] Sam: But hey, one has to keep one's integrity, and, while I recognise everyone else is mad about him because he's so-and-so's son, I'm actually not myself, so there's very little reason in reality to be friends with him (even though the triangular aspect makes me half-feel unconsciously that I'm somehow being unreasonable or arrogant) [27/9/23, 3:23:12 am] Sam: But yes wait sorry I don't quite follow [27/9/23, 3:23:17 am] Oli: yes anyway [27/9/23, 3:23:20 am] Sam: You mean you can't keep up financially? [27/9/23, 3:23:22 am] Oli: I am a bit different from him [27/9/23, 3:23:25 am] Sam: (which feeling I know) [27/9/23, 3:23:25 am] Oli: Oh no I can just aboutL [27/9/23, 3:23:29 am] Oli: LOL ironically those people... [27/9/23, 3:23:30 am] Sam: from phil etc [27/9/23, 3:23:35 am] Sam: also from being on the other side [27/9/23, 3:23:41 am] Oli: Financially they aren't as liquid as they make out [27/9/23, 3:23:47 am] Oli: They are by no means Phil's level [27/9/23, 3:23:49 am] Oli: these people are the top socially [27/9/23, 3:23:52 am] Oli: but not financially [27/9/23, 3:24:27 am] Oli: I quite often trump them financially [27/9/23, 3:24:32 am] Oli: Which is why they have me [27/9/23, 3:24:34 am] Oli: a lot of the time [27/9/23, 3:24:46 am] Oli: But mentally I feel I can't keep up ‎[27/9/23, 3:24:48 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 3:24:50 am] Oli: I just find it lacking [27/9/23, 3:24:54 am] Oli: Emotionally so vacant ‎[27/9/23, 3:25:20 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 3:26:01 am] Sam: Tbf Freddie said the same, but in that way where you can tell that he's telling you it and hoping you'll believe that he's lying [27/9/23, 3:26:14 am] Sam: Wdym? [27/9/23, 3:26:26 am] Sam: Also this [27/9/23, 3:26:27 am] Oli: lol I sleep most days because it's easier [27/9/23, 3:26:28 am] Oli: haha [27/9/23, 3:26:41 am] Oli: I have the available money to spend hundreds a night on the drugs they want lol [27/9/23, 3:26:46 am] Oli: Which they probably like [27/9/23, 3:27:06 am] Oli: Even though they probably have the same it's easier [27/9/23, 3:27:15 am] Oli: And also there are mutual social overlaps but it's more drugs [27/9/23, 3:27:20 am] Oli: These people are fucking fucked by drugs [27/9/23, 3:27:27 am] Oli: Tatler wanks over them ‎[27/9/23, 3:27:28 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 3:27:31 am] Oli: They are absolutely fucked by drugs [27/9/23, 3:27:36 am] Oli: It's tragic [27/9/23, 3:28:05 am] Sam: Fucked how? In thrall? Serious addiction wise? Or lotophagy? [27/9/23, 3:28:07 am] Oli: His family are very rich I think lol at least [27/9/23, 3:28:28 am] Oli: Yes lotus eaters [27/9/23, 3:28:33 am] Sam: Yes in all seriousness I think yes, but, with my vivid memories of Divy's parents poring over his Amex bills with him, there's sometimes a limit to what that means [27/9/23, 3:28:34 am] Oli: SERIOUSLY [27/9/23, 3:28:39 am] Sam: It's not the same as having one's own money [27/9/23, 3:28:39 am] Oli: I go to a party in London with this set... [27/9/23, 3:28:42 am] Oli: You can't escape the coke [27/9/23, 3:28:45 am] Sam: Much like what I was saying about Damien with Tim [27/9/23, 3:28:45 am] Oli: It's all cok [27/9/23, 3:28:46 am] Oli: coke [27/9/23, 3:28:48 am] Oli: wtf is going on [27/9/23, 3:28:58 am] Oli: Maybe idk [27/9/23, 3:29:02 am] Oli: I suspect he probs gets very little [27/9/23, 3:29:05 am] Sam: Tbf I think that's just young people in London [27/9/23, 3:29:08 am] Oli: As he's always very Jewish with money [27/9/23, 3:29:10 am] Sam: It is so utterly ubiquitous [27/9/23, 3:29:19 am] Oli: Whenever I meet Fred he is Jewish with money [27/9/23, 3:29:25 am] Oli: I think he has very little [27/9/23, 3:29:28 am] Sam: Even the Essex lads, who go to the Harvester pub and call it 'gak' et [27/9/23, 3:29:30 am] Oli: But his father at least has lots [27/9/23, 3:29:30 am] Sam: c [27/9/23, 3:29:31 am] Oli: lol [27/9/23, 3:29:41 am] Oli: LOL GAK [27/9/23, 3:29:46 am] Sam: No I wouldn't be surprised if it's the Divy sorta thing [27/9/23, 3:29:50 am] Sam: Phil's parents also cut him off [27/9/23, 3:29:51 am] Oli: You're probably right [27/9/23, 3:29:54 am] Sam: Several of my friends had similar [27/9/23, 3:30:03 am] Sam: It really doesn't necessarily mean much at all [27/9/23, 3:30:17 am] Oli: Fred had no money to buy a £6 Pimm's last I saw him LOL [27/9/23, 3:30:18 am] Sam: Cf Saudi princes from the al-Saud lot, of whom you've probably met 3-7 [27/9/23, 3:30:22 am] Sam: Sounds impressive [27/9/23, 3:30:23 am] Oli: yet his father has a few hundred million [27/9/23, 3:30:24 am] Oli: Mad [27/9/23, 3:30:29 am] Sam: No one realises there are fucking thousands of them [27/9/23, 3:30:31 am] Oli: I met one years ago [27/9/23, 3:30:39 am] Sam: Obv there aren't thousands of Freddies, except in the mental sense [27/9/23, 3:30:49 am] Sam: But basically it doesn't mean he has cash [27/9/23, 3:31:00 am] Oli: He asked me what I was doing 'tomorrow'. Said I was lunching at the Lanesborough. He said 'that's the YMCA on wheels' [27/9/23, 3:31:01 am] Oli: Haha [27/9/23, 3:31:03 am] Sam: He's just a backup in case of double plane crash [27/9/23, 3:31:19 am] Sam: Yes vacant is how this makes me feel [27/9/23, 3:31:30 am] Oli: This Saudi or whatever prince [27/9/23, 3:31:31 am] Sam: I'm cautious that this is maybe my influence, but I don't think entirely so [27/9/23, 3:31:34 am] Oli: I thought was a total prole [27/9/23, 3:31:38 am] Oli: But that's my problem [27/9/23, 3:31:39 am] Sam: And probably not largely so [27/9/23, 3:31:41 am] Oli: It's why I feel so trapped [27/9/23, 3:31:42 am] Oli: Madness [27/9/23, 3:31:53 am] Sam: Well, first off: why exactly bother? [27/9/23, 3:32:00 am] Sam: What do you get out of this? [27/9/23, 3:32:13 am] Oli: Nothing lol [27/9/23, 3:32:22 am] Oli: WELL [27/9/23, 3:32:26 am] Oli: Maybe sometimes some COMPANY [27/9/23, 3:32:38 am] Oli: As sometimes on week nights they are only people who can afford to be mad [27/9/23, 3:32:41 am] Oli: Sad really [27/9/23, 3:32:45 am] Oli: Tragicomic [27/9/23, 3:32:46 am] Oli: Haha [27/9/23, 3:32:49 am] Oli: I use that word a lot [27/9/23, 3:34:20 am] Sam: Do you need company to take this stuff? That's probably good in a way if so – good in the sense of auspicious, or less inauspicious than it might have been – but do these people provide any company? [27/9/23, 3:34:25 am] Oli: It just gives me a bad picture of the world [27/9/23, 3:34:37 am] Sam: Winnicott says [27/9/23, 3:34:45 am] Sam: the goal of the child is to be alone in the presence of the mother [27/9/23, 3:34:53 am] Oli: Good latter point. They provide superficial company. [27/9/23, 3:35:07 am] Oli: Some of them in their vague normal lives are interesting people. [27/9/23, 3:35:09 am] Sam: and i always thought that was a sorta nice description of the ideal (for me) relationship: alone in the presence of another [not the mother specifically or ideally] [27/9/23, 3:35:14 am] Oli: And I get a bit of that when talking to them. [27/9/23, 3:35:20 am] Oli: But otherwise no it's another pointless evening [27/9/23, 3:35:28 am] Oli: Just another day in paradise as Phil Collins says [27/9/23, 3:35:32 am] Sam: Yes I think this is inevitably true [27/9/23, 3:35:34 am] Oli: Which I suspect to be riddled with implications [27/9/23, 3:35:41 am] Sam: Because there's nothing there [27/9/23, 3:35:52 am] Oli: LOL like that tonsured man [27/9/23, 3:35:59 am] Oli: I don't really like him at all he's a pompous git [27/9/23, 3:36:08 am] Sam: I meant what I said, that they are the same as people living on council estates and drinking lager and setting their dogs on pensioners or whatever [27/9/23, 3:36:08 am] Oli: But I have a Greco-Roman sense of humour [27/9/23, 3:36:17 am] Oli: In their times they laughed at bald men like him [27/9/23, 3:36:25 am] Oli: It's probably quasi autistic [27/9/23, 3:36:33 am] Sam: All these people seem to spend their lives rationalising their vacuous lives to the vacuous people they spend them with [27/9/23, 3:36:40 am] Sam: ... vacuously [27/9/23, 3:37:09 am] Sam: I don't get a sense from the videos but he certainly looks tedious and braindead as do the rest of them [27/9/23, 3:37:13 am] Oli: This happened at Ascot. Kingsley was there. He asked where I was. I said oh yes the White's tent. He couldn't get in. He felt awful. [27/9/23, 3:37:18 am] Oli: So even he had his limits. [27/9/23, 3:37:21 am] Oli: Hilarious. [27/9/23, 3:37:22 am] Sam: And I'm not saying we all have to spend our lives in the london library or whatever [27/9/23, 3:37:29 am] Sam: but at the end of the day your brain is, ya know, _you_ [27/9/23, 3:37:40 am] Sam: and most of these people would qualify for organ donation [27/9/23, 3:37:44 am] Sam: possibly with flying colours [27/9/23, 3:37:53 am] Oli: He wants to be something he isn't [27/9/23, 3:37:56 am] Oli: He was at Ludgrove [27/9/23, 3:37:59 am] Sam: and they should donate their brains, because they may get fifty quid out of it for some coke [27/9/23, 3:38:00 am] Oli: Very possibly you met him [27/9/23, 3:38:05 am] Oli: 😈 [27/9/23, 3:38:22 am] Oli: Anyway, the point of mentioning that... at Ludders was a chap called Ed Stanley... [27/9/23, 3:38:26 am] Sam: and science may put them to more use than has hitherto been possible [27/9/23, 3:38:29 am] Oli: Latterly Floreat with kingsley but... [27/9/23, 3:38:40 am] Oli: During that time, prep, Kingsley tried to ingratiate with Stanley apparently [27/9/23, 3:38:48 am] Oli: As Stanley is son and heir of Graf von Derby [27/9/23, 3:38:56 am] Oli: That's who Kingsley is [27/9/23, 3:39:05 am] Oli: He's quite clever in terms of second hand fogey knowledge [27/9/23, 3:39:10 am] Oli: Which I somehow like [27/9/23, 3:39:21 am] Oli: But he isn't quite genuine [27/9/23, 3:39:25 am] Sam: Very probably! I think we have very different attitudes to socialising and social life I'm afraid! I do remember an Edward but I don't remember anything much about him and god knows if the same one [27/9/23, 3:39:35 am] Sam: PM? [27/9/23, 3:39:47 am] Oli: YesP [27/9/23, 3:39:49 am] Sam: Some time between Peel and Disraeli? [27/9/23, 3:39:52 am] Oli: One of the Stanleys was a PM [27/9/23, 3:39:53 am] Sam: Ah ok [27/9/23, 3:40:03 am] Oli: Do you remember a Kingsley? [27/9/23, 3:40:08 am] Oli: LOL sorry I should stop this madness [27/9/23, 3:40:12 am] Oli: I just find him intriguing [27/9/23, 3:40:19 am] Oli: I wonder what makes someone like that [27/9/23, 3:40:29 am] Oli: And it's a good distraction from my problems [27/9/23, 3:40:46 am] Sam: one sec, replyign seriatim and looking up sth for prev msg first [27/9/23, 3:40:57 am] Oli: Sorry I am writing bollocks probably. [27/9/23, 3:41:01 am] Oli: Do tell me if I am. [27/9/23, 3:41:11 am] Oli: I can be steered to a better path, [27/9/23, 3:41:48 am] Oli: I agree [27/9/23, 3:41:59 am] Oli: It's a beautiful thing to know someone's mind so truly [27/9/23, 3:42:15 am] Oli: One of the most beautiful things this cruel race can provide. ‎[27/9/23, 3:42:30 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 3:42:38 am] Oli: The problem is SO MANY FUCKING PEOPLE find it easier to just make judgments about people based on other accounts [27/9/23, 3:42:40 am] Sam: Prob sent before but yes [27/9/23, 3:42:50 am] Oli: YES [27/9/23, 3:42:53 am] Oli: You sent it re Murphy [27/9/23, 3:42:54 am] Sam: I like you [27/9/23, 3:42:55 am] Oli: And true [27/9/23, 3:42:59 am] Sam: goddammit terrible fucking habit [27/9/23, 3:43:07 am] Sam: I do not [27/9/23, 3:43:11 am] Sam: I think you've asked me before [27/9/23, 3:43:13 am] Oli: rofl [27/9/23, 3:43:19 am] Oli: He's tonsured etonian chap [27/9/23, 3:43:23 am] Oli: Ha they were prob year above you [27/9/23, 3:43:31 am] Oli: Well... [27/9/23, 3:43:32 am] Oli: Funny. [27/9/23, 3:43:35 am] Sam: I would have no idea to be perfectly frank but maybe some day I'll meet him (hopefully not but sadly plausible) and we can hash it out [27/9/23, 3:43:38 am] Oli: I can be candid now I suppose... [27/9/23, 3:43:45 am] Oli: We never quite got to know each other.. [27/9/23, 3:43:51 am] Oli: You always had a reservation about me. [27/9/23, 3:44:04 am] Oli: Which is, as you often say, a particularly London thing, I think. [27/9/23, 3:44:09 am] Oli: A city dwelling concept. [27/9/23, 3:44:11 am] Sam: That was entirely this stuff, haha [27/9/23, 3:44:12 am] Oli: But that is life. [27/9/23, 3:44:17 am] Sam: I like you more now [27/9/23, 3:44:24 am] Sam: None of this stuff is you qua you [27/9/23, 3:44:33 am] Sam: I just don't like the set [27/9/23, 3:44:40 am] Oli: I always found you cute lol but I am not sad enough to pursue someone grabbing their legs... [27/9/23, 3:44:42 am] Sam: I mean, I have nothing at all against people just because of their backgrounds [27/9/23, 3:44:48 am] Sam: I am quite fierce about that [27/9/23, 3:44:49 am] Oli: And I realised you had some element of dislike about me... [27/9/23, 3:44:53 am] Sam: No worse to be born rich than born poor [27/9/23, 3:44:56 am] Oli: So I just accepted it as normal... [27/9/23, 3:44:59 am] Sam: No no no I never disliked you [27/9/23, 3:45:01 am] Sam: Sorry [27/9/23, 3:45:03 am] Oli: But lots of people are confused in that idea. [27/9/23, 3:45:03 am] Sam: I feel bad about that [27/9/23, 3:45:08 am] Oli: Well not 'dislike' but a bit of reservation! [27/9/23, 3:45:09 am] Sam: No I never did [27/9/23, 3:45:14 am] Sam: never did _that_ [27/9/23, 3:45:17 am] Sam: I can say that at least [27/9/23, 3:45:35 am] Sam: No maybe I was maddened slightly by the feeling that you had more to you than this [27/9/23, 3:45:38 am] Sam: wait one sec [27/9/23, 3:45:51 am] Oli: LOL hmm [27/9/23, 3:45:54 am] Oli: Interesting [27/9/23, 3:46:02 am] Oli: I am often conflated by these London people anyway [27/9/23, 3:46:05 am] Oli: So I just get used to it [27/9/23, 3:47:46 am] Oli: But that sort of gets me back to the start point [27/9/23, 3:47:51 am] Oli: About what a sad life it i [27/9/23, 3:47:52 am] Oli: is [27/9/23, 3:47:54 am] Oli: Or can be [27/9/23, 3:48:38 am] Oli: I have a Haile Selassie temple at home in the country ‎[27/9/23, 3:48:42 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [27/9/23, 3:48:42 am] Oli: That is how mad I am probably [27/9/23, 3:49:21 am] Sam: I would send you the whole chat but I'm not sure it'd be right given there's some stuff he's said that may well be private, or ... yeah just suffice it to say that, tho I'm frustrated with him, I feel it'd be shitty [27/9/23, 3:49:31 am] Sam: but even that is probably a reflection of my feelings [27/9/23, 3:49:35 am] Sam: which are that I like you [27/9/23, 3:50:04 am] Sam: and am fond of you and - fuck it - probably would go out with you, and my misgivings are not really about _you_ but about incidental things [27/9/23, 3:50:20 am] Sam: and a slight worry that you're spending your life on fatuities [27/9/23, 3:50:51 am] Sam: I sent a quotation a while back which wasn't 'directed at you' when I sent it, but which I later realised prob crystallised my worries [27/9/23, 3:50:54 am] Sam: kenneth tynan i think [27/9/23, 3:50:55 am] Oli: Yes I wondered [27/9/23, 3:50:56 am] Sam: one sec [27/9/23, 3:51:00 am] Oli: You are probably right about this [27/9/23, 3:51:03 am] Oli: I worry about the same myself [27/9/23, 3:51:11 am] Oli: I do it because I am lost [27/9/23, 3:51:19 am] Oli: Why else would a thinking human do it [27/9/23, 3:51:32 am] Oli: It is tragic in the grand scheme of things [27/9/23, 3:51:39 am] Oli: But life deals one a certain set of cards [27/9/23, 3:51:52 am] Sam: I like you and I feel slightly giddy and I am worried about that to an extent [27/9/23, 3:51:57 am] Sam: Don't worry, not another seizure [27/9/23, 3:51:59 am] Sam: lol [27/9/23, 3:52:06 am] Oli: I had a very odd start to this world. [27/9/23, 3:52:12 am] Oli: Most people don't understand it. [27/9/23, 3:52:22 am] Oli: And it is just compounded by how people react. [27/9/23, 3:52:29 am] Oli: As I was raised mostly by grandpa, i.e. someone born in 1931 [27/9/23, 3:52:36 am] Oli: So modern people my generation lol good idea [27/9/23, 3:52:38 am] Oli: Hilarious [27/9/23, 3:52:45 am] Oli: It just adds to the fucking farce ‎[27/9/23, 3:52:46 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 3:53:28 am] Oli: Agree [27/9/23, 3:53:38 am] Sam: From my dear old dead friend Alan’s book (jesus, speak of _in ictu oculi_ - you never know when you’re gonna fall off your garden stairs and in a split second that’s it, a whole world snuffed out) [27/9/23, 3:53:49 am] Oli: Essentially... [27/9/23, 3:53:56 am] Sam: Thiiiiiis explains a lot [27/9/23, 3:54:12 am] Oli: My mother is severely fucked up. God bless her. And I was sexually abused by her mostly as a child. [27/9/23, 3:54:19 am] Sam: Jesus christ [27/9/23, 3:54:21 am] Sam: Jesus [27/9/23, 3:54:23 am] Sam: Shit [27/9/23, 3:54:23 am] Oli: Why don't I make a thing of it? I find that very overrated. [27/9/23, 3:54:32 am] Sam: Shit I’m really sorry [27/9/23, 3:54:36 am] Oli: Hence why I come off as offhand to you when you preach about the poor etc. [27/9/23, 3:54:39 am] Sam: Just to be clear I obv won’t share this [27/9/23, 3:54:41 am] Oli: I just find it hyperbolic. [27/9/23, 3:55:05 am] Oli: Social services thought there was no problem because my mother lived in a 'country house', i.e. family place in N. Ireland. [27/9/23, 3:55:13 am] Oli: And we had nice furniture/paintings. [27/9/23, 3:55:15 am] Oli: So no abuse there! [27/9/23, 3:55:15 am] Sam: Yeah I know this attitude - I don’t quite understand it but I know it, and I know that I don’t understand intense suffering directly and … who knows [27/9/23, 3:55:28 am] Oli: My father, in 2004, was jailed for setting fire to a tramp. Normal isn't it? [27/9/23, 3:55:51 am] Oli: He's Hahn, sort of quasi-grand Jewish family, and his mother Almásy, a Hungarian genuinely OK family lol. [27/9/23, 3:55:57 am] Oli: Emigre to England. And fucked up. [27/9/23, 3:56:04 am] Oli: My grandpa took responsibility for raising me. [27/9/23, 3:56:05 am] Sam: Yes I did hear that part, can't remember from whom [27/9/23, 3:56:14 am] Oli: Damien probably haha I told him [27/9/23, 3:56:16 am] Oli: I find it funny [27/9/23, 3:56:21 am] Oli: Although god bless the poor tramp [27/9/23, 3:56:31 am] Sam: Phil was beaten up by his dad on Xanax [27/9/23, 3:56:38 am] Oli: Oh well... [27/9/23, 3:56:42 am] Oli: It happens to many more than we'd think! [27/9/23, 3:56:44 am] Sam: I do very much understand that it's not confined to the poor [27/9/23, 3:56:50 am] Oli: My mother... it wasn't her fault. [27/9/23, 3:56:52 am] Sam: I don't understand what it's like, really [27/9/23, 3:56:54 am] Oli: Her shrink gave her false memory syndrome. [27/9/23, 3:57:04 am] Oli: Her shrink told her that her father wanted to sexually abuse her etc. [27/9/23, 3:57:12 am] Oli: So she believed it and thus thought all men were manifestations of that. [27/9/23, 3:57:14 am] Oli: So it came out on me. [27/9/23, 3:57:20 am] Sam: Even then, how does that lead to that??? [27/9/23, 3:57:28 am] Oli: I would like to know the same. [27/9/23, 3:57:33 am] Sam: Jesus christ [27/9/23, 3:57:41 am] Oli: I feel very sorry for my mother. [27/9/23, 3:57:45 am] Oli: It is upsetting. [27/9/23, 3:57:47 am] Oli: But that is life. [27/9/23, 3:57:47 am] Sam: I'm really sorry [27/9/23, 3:57:59 am] Oli: Hence why it's easier for me to go to parties with mongs and just say heil hitler etc. [27/9/23, 3:58:06 am] Oli: Probably not the best but that is life. [27/9/23, 3:58:27 am] Oli: You have nothing to be sorry about. [27/9/23, 3:58:29 am] Sam: I'm fully aware that 'sorry' is meaningless and I'm just saying it as a pro forma thing. I can't quite articulate what I feel. [27/9/23, 3:58:32 am] Oli: But I like the emotion.\ [27/9/23, 3:58:40 am] Oli: It's a fucke dup world. [27/9/23, 3:58:43 am] Oli: You know how I dealt with it? [27/9/23, 3:58:43 am] Sam: Ah, snap - I didn't mean it in an apologetic sense but in a regret sense [27/9/23, 3:58:50 am] Oli: I realised people had much worse lives than I. [27/9/23, 3:58:57 am] Oli: That's how the bloody world works. [27/9/23, 3:59:02 am] Oli: It's a cruel place. [27/9/23, 3:59:05 am] Oli: And we have to be tough. [27/9/23, 3:59:06 am] Oli: To withstand it, [27/9/23, 3:59:46 am] Oli: Hence why I feel odd] [27/9/23, 3:59:58 am] Oli: I often meet these people, one of whom Freddie, whom you made contact with.. [27/9/23, 4:00:05 am] Oli: And easily conflated with them... [27/9/23, 4:00:10 am] Oli: But I don't feel quite the same! [27/9/23, 4:00:20 am] Oli: They are self-assured English people [27/9/23, 4:00:22 am] Oli: A bit different. [27/9/23, 4:00:37 am] Sam: I ... I get it, I really do. It's not who I am, but I do get it. I remember the same from Ryan. Also Freddie's and my mutual friend Lars, who served as a volunteer (i.e. paid soldier, not really anything 'volunteer' about it but he went bc of ideals) in Bosnia (so you can prob imagine). I once said to Freddie that it was amazing that Lars felt the need to be 'respectful' to _him_. To which his response was: "welllll....." [27/9/23, 4:00:49 am] Oli: I like them as they are OK but they aren't fulfilling intellectually. [27/9/23, 4:01:21 am] Oli: I loved Ryan but still feel guilty I haven't spoken to him in a while. [27/9/23, 4:01:23 am] Oli: God bless him. ‎[27/9/23, 4:01:25 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 4:01:57 am] Oli: This sums it up. [27/9/23, 4:02:01 am] Oli: Yes, even my mother had that. [27/9/23, 4:02:12 am] Oli: My mother is a very troubled person. Hence her own projection of it onto me. [27/9/23, 4:02:25 am] Oli: She tried to have a relationship with her handyman in Ireland. [27/9/23, 4:02:31 am] Oli: She got pissed once and was telling him about her problems. [27/9/23, 4:02:42 am] Oli: He said, in Irish brogue, 'but for sure you're from good stock'. [27/9/23, 4:02:47 am] Oli: She was absolutely appalled. [27/9/23, 4:03:00 am] Oli: I can see why, but slightly self-indulgent from her wanting to be portrayed as the victim. [27/9/23, 4:03:04 am] Sam: Wait, I don't quite follow this? Appalled why? [27/9/23, 4:03:09 am] Oli: But the point is no-one is as easily worked out as one thinks. [27/9/23, 4:03:20 am] Oli: Because he had the image of her as 'Anglo-Irish Ascendancy.' [27/9/23, 4:03:20 am] Sam: That this was too obedient or self-abasing? [27/9/23, 4:03:28 am] Sam: Ascendancy? [27/9/23, 4:03:37 am] Oli: And that to him didn't recognise her 'oppressed' persona [27/9/23, 4:03:41 am] Sam: Sorry, not up on Irish history, tho dimly aware you have some [27/9/23, 4:03:41 am] Oli: (FALSE memory syndrome) [27/9/23, 4:03:47 am] Sam: Ohhhh I see ah ok [27/9/23, 4:03:50 am] Oli: Haha yes the Ascendancy is synonymous with 'ANglo-irish' [27/9/23, 4:03:53 am] Sam: American Irish Peasant Syndrome [27/9/23, 4:03:57 am] Oli: basically 'ruling class' in Ireland [27/9/23, 4:04:03 am] Oli: slightly but properly Irish peasant haha [27/9/23, 4:04:07 am] Sam: Joe Biden etc [27/9/23, 4:04:08 am] Oli: Americans mostly plastic paddies [27/9/23, 4:04:10 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 4:04:23 am] Oli: Yes I grew up in Ireland mostly lol [27/9/23, 4:04:39 am] Sam: Yeah I really like Ryan! I need to reply to him [27/9/23, 4:04:39 am] Oli: My great-aunt, now 94, was asked, years ago, was she enoying her holiday, in IRELAND [27/9/23, 4:04:47 am] Oli: 'I've lived here for 90 years she said' ‎[27/9/23, 4:04:54 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 4:04:59 am] Oli: They didn't think anyone who was Irish would have an 'English' accent [27/9/23, 4:05:00 am] Sam: Long holiday! [27/9/23, 4:05:01 am] Oli: Stupid [27/9/23, 4:05:14 am] Sam: Haha no but yeah I like you [27/9/23, 4:05:23 am] Oli: Well, I always found you cute. [27/9/23, 4:05:25 am] Oli: But that was it. [27/9/23, 4:05:29 am] Sam: But I have not even the faintest beginnings of an idea what you want [27/9/23, 4:05:31 am] Oli: We had a sort of 'disconnect' in our relations. [27/9/23, 4:05:32 am] Oli: I think. [27/9/23, 4:05:36 am] Sam: Yes I think so! [27/9/23, 4:05:41 am] Oli: LOL mostly just friendship and a hug [27/9/23, 4:05:43 am] Sam: I never disliked you at all [27/9/23, 4:05:48 am] Oli: Such is life [27/9/23, 4:06:05 am] Sam: It's true I didn't look at you as a sexual/romantic prospect but that was never anything to do with looks or dislike [27/9/23, 4:06:12 am] Sam: More to do with a sense that ... well, one sec [27/9/23, 4:06:27 am] Sam: ^ [27/9/23, 4:06:33 am] Sam: vibe [27/9/23, 4:06:43 am] Sam: I like you and I like this side of you much more [27/9/23, 4:07:33 am] Sam: And I definitely picked up on a kind of frustration in you and Freddie with wanting to defend this kinda axiology but ... as Orwell said ... one sec [27/9/23, 4:07:54 am] Oli: Omg lol a frustration really? [27/9/23, 4:08:15 am] Oli: I never felt comfortable being myself as I thought there was always unresolved business [27/9/23, 4:08:20 am] Oli: To be honest haha xx ‎[27/9/23, 4:08:48 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 4:09:24 am] Sam: Oh no this time I meant in the modern sense, and not romantically but politically/ethically/whatever the word is for doing stuff that's not selfish and vapid [27/9/23, 4:09:26 am] Oli: I imagined you thought I was some overly privileged stuck up git [27/9/23, 4:09:29 am] Oli: Which a lot of people think [27/9/23, 4:09:34 am] Oli: It drives me mad [27/9/23, 4:09:42 am] Sam: Oh haha I thought you said you imagined me that way [27/9/23, 4:09:46 am] Oli: I suppose I can come across that way [27/9/23, 4:09:52 am] Oli: LOL no you are quite genuine [27/9/23, 4:09:55 am] Sam: Which I could imagine but I then thought the following message was rather brutal [27/9/23, 4:09:56 am] Sam: haha [27/9/23, 4:09:56 am] Oli: Even to first meetings [27/9/23, 4:10:01 am] Oli: It takes me a while [27/9/23, 4:10:08 am] Sam: No I didn't think of you like that [27/9/23, 4:10:20 am] Sam: I liked you because you struck me as not that [27/9/23, 4:10:39 am] Sam: And the idea of being from that world and yet not having totally dull and awful opinions is not new to me [27/9/23, 4:10:51 am] Sam: I mean, with my grandma and her tamil tiger activism, haha [27/9/23, 4:11:01 am] Oli: Yes this is very interesting actually [27/9/23, 4:11:07 am] Oli: And a good anthropological point [27/9/23, 4:11:17 am] Sam: Or my grandpa [27/9/23, 4:11:20 am] Oli: The thing is everyone thinks oh yes Babington Wilson he has had a nice life [27/9/23, 4:11:25 am] Sam: earliest decedent [27/9/23, 4:11:36 am] Oli: Actually the reason why I am why I am is because I've seen the world at its worst [27/9/23, 4:11:39 am] Sam: who hammered this stuff into me and whom i'm very grateful to [27/9/23, 4:11:39 am] Oli: And it's been good for me [27/9/23, 4:12:05 am] Sam: Yes I'm well acquainted with this [27/9/23, 4:12:24 am] Sam: Not to say I can understand it from the inside, I'm not trying to be dismissive or whatever, that's a whole 'nother thing [27/9/23, 4:12:35 am] Sam: But I've def registered it [27/9/23, 4:12:45 am] Sam: Not particularly in you though I was aware of some lacuna [27/9/23, 4:12:50 am] Sam: Known unknowns etc [27/9/23, 4:12:52 am] Oli: Laxcuna haha lol [27/9/23, 4:12:59 am] Oli: Known unknowns hello Rumsfeld [27/9/23, 4:13:02 am] Oli: Do I give that vibe off [27/9/23, 4:13:03 am] Oli: Good idea [27/9/23, 4:13:12 am] Oli: Good to register this [27/9/23, 4:13:36 am] Sam: Well, a bit like what I was saying to Damien there, I was aware that my understanding wasn't complete or wasn't consistent (Godel again) [27/9/23, 4:14:01 am] Oli: Yes I always liked Damien in a naiive way [27/9/23, 4:14:06 am] Oli: As I thought he was sweet and nice [27/9/23, 4:14:06 am] Sam: I have no idea - to me, yes, but idk how common that particular perception is [27/9/23, 4:14:15 am] Oli: But what you and Camm said about him upset me [27/9/23, 4:14:16 am] Sam: I think most of the time he is [27/9/23, 4:14:21 am] Oli: And I'm not surprised by it [27/9/23, 4:14:25 am] Oli: But it just annoys me [27/9/23, 4:14:28 am] Sam: I don't think it's as simple as "he's bad deep down" [27/9/23, 4:14:29 am] Oli: Oh yes, yet another person [27/9/23, 4:14:44 am] Sam: (Me and the spatial psychic metaphors) [27/9/23, 4:15:01 am] Oli: I thought the fact that he slept with a teddy bear, he's told me the name several times and I remember it slightly, was so sweet. [27/9/23, 4:15:06 am] Oli: And betrayed a lovely child. [27/9/23, 4:15:15 am] Sam: I think he _is_ nice, there is a circuit in his brain that is nice, and there is another circuit that is activated for sexual or vindictive or whatever other reasons that is not nice [27/9/23, 4:15:19 am] Oli: People too early abandon their innocent stages of life. [27/9/23, 4:15:23 am] Oli: I liked that in him. [27/9/23, 4:15:28 am] Sam: I don't think he's being nice for merely instrumental reasons [27/9/23, 4:15:29 am] Oli: Yes, the circuit of the brain. [27/9/23, 4:15:35 am] Sam: I think both are equally real [27/9/23, 4:15:47 am] Sam: But people always want to believe it's one circuit and one 'true self' etc [27/9/23, 4:15:54 am] Oli: Good point [27/9/23, 4:16:09 am] Sam: Aloysius or whatever he's called (no it's not that but i can't bloody recall) [27/9/23, 4:16:18 am] Oli: lol bloody Waugh [27/9/23, 4:16:21 am] Oli: Evelyn Waugh fuck him [27/9/23, 4:16:27 am] Oli: He's worse than fucking Murphy [27/9/23, 4:16:35 am] Sam: Yes I entirely agree [27/9/23, 4:16:56 am] Oli: Never read Brideshead [27/9/23, 4:17:00 am] Oli: I hate these LARPers [27/9/23, 4:17:01 am] Oli: lol [27/9/23, 4:17:07 am] Sam: Adam Phillips says somewhere that one of the signs of a decaying society is a [whatever the word is] of children [27/9/23, 4:17:10 am] Oli: I've seen the TV series [27/9/23, 4:17:21 am] Sam: Raising them to an exaggeratedly high and unreal and symbolic level [27/9/23, 4:17:25 am] Sam: I can’t remember [27/9/23, 4:17:26 am] Sam: God [27/9/23, 4:17:29 am] Sam: Brain [27/9/23, 4:17:37 am] Sam: But yes I do agree [27/9/23, 4:17:55 am] Oli: I just get upset easily about psychological things like this. [27/9/23, 4:18:04 am] Oli: HENCE why I asked Q yesterday [27/9/23, 4:18:14 am] Sam: I distinctly remember sitting on the bus home from school one day (third form or something) and promising to myself that I’d never become one of the businessmen [27/9/23, 4:18:17 am] Oli: Coke probably bad drug for this lol but if you do a lot it increases dopamine [27/9/23, 4:18:21 am] Oli: And can be OK for a few hours [27/9/23, 4:18:24 am] Sam: Which I think was my inner metaphor for, ya know, the hollow men [27/9/23, 4:18:34 am] Sam: The poshlosty [27/9/23, 4:18:42 am] Sam: The widmerpools [27/9/23, 4:18:51 am] Sam: (Social snobbery aside, just venality) [27/9/23, 4:18:53 am] Oli: WIDMERPOOL LOL [27/9/23, 4:18:54 am] Oli: a [27/9/23, 4:18:57 am] Oli: That's funny [27/9/23, 4:19:03 am] Sam: Which q? [27/9/23, 4:19:09 am] Oli: Why do you do drugs [27/9/23, 4:19:10 am] Sam: Neither have they [27/9/23, 4:19:16 am] Oli: I do them to avoid the fucking reality of life [27/9/23, 4:19:20 am] Oli: As I'm sure most do [27/9/23, 4:19:22 am] Sam: As I always say, they only read the first chapter and it very much shows [27/9/23, 4:19:25 am] Oli: I just wanted it from you in your own words [27/9/23, 4:19:38 am] Sam: Or watched the first episode with Anthony Andrews and Jeremy irons lol [27/9/23, 4:19:54 am] Sam: Oh wait why do I do them? Or you? [27/9/23, 4:19:57 am] Oli: I didn't do them until lockdown [27/9/23, 4:19:58 am] Oli: Why do you [27/9/23, 4:20:07 am] Oli: But why do I also but YOU in this context [27/9/23, 4:20:31 am] Sam: The truth is I don’t know, really - I do them because I enjoy them, and then the question is probably why I enjoy them, and the answer is fuck knows [27/9/23, 4:20:36 am] Sam: And maybe not even fuck [27/9/23, 4:20:46 am] Oli: Sometimes I am hard on myself and say I am a disgraceful reprobate on drugs [27/9/23, 4:20:56 am] Oli: and sometimes quasi alcoholic [27/9/23, 4:21:01 am] Oli: Which is why I like circuit breakers [27/9/23, 4:21:09 am] Oli: But it is a complex one [27/9/23, 4:21:24 am] Oli: I do them because I enjoy them too [27/9/23, 4:21:25 am] Sam: I think it’s a weird shared fiction that we have this much introspective knowledge (and I’m not, like, trying to be like “haha you’re being stupid” because I entirely think this way and all our society does and it’s baked into everything but I don’t on reflection think it’s really true) [27/9/23, 4:21:25 am] Oli: BUT.. [27/9/23, 4:21:28 am] Oli: WHY do I do them? [27/9/23, 4:21:34 am] Oli: Something lacking, hmm? [27/9/23, 4:21:35 am] Oli: Lacuna? [27/9/23, 4:21:38 am] Sam: Every man is furthest from himself [27/9/23, 4:21:40 am] Oli: Why the need to DO? [27/9/23, 4:21:44 am] Oli: Is my point [27/9/23, 4:21:48 am] Sam: I guess why do we do anything? [27/9/23, 4:21:54 am] Oli: YES [27/9/23, 4:21:55 am] Oli: But... [27/9/23, 4:21:56 am] Sam: We all have pleasures, right? [27/9/23, 4:21:58 am] Oli: faIR [27/9/23, 4:22:00 am] Oli: bUT... [27/9/23, 4:22:02 am] Sam: Reason not the need [27/9/23, 4:22:08 am] Oli: Drugs alter the mental state... [27/9/23, 4:22:12 am] Sam: Even our basest beggars are in the poorest thing superfluous [27/9/23, 4:22:12 am] Oli: Maybe more than other things... [27/9/23, 4:22:16 am] Oli: Why do that? [27/9/23, 4:22:26 am] Oli: And I agree with you 100 percent that booze is a drug [27/9/23, 4:22:39 am] Sam: Give not nature that which nature needs [no this line is slightly wrong], man’s life is cheap as beast’s [27/9/23, 4:22:39 am] Oli: Why the fuck do people casually drink booze with meals? [27/9/23, 4:22:41 am] Oli: Madness [27/9/23, 4:22:44 am] Sam: Etc ok sorry [27/9/23, 4:23:10 am] Sam: You have a puritan streak in you which is interesting to me and which I don’t get [27/9/23, 4:23:19 am] Sam: And I don’t mean that as a criticism at all [27/9/23, 4:23:27 am] Sam: And I prob do but in a slightly different way [27/9/23, 4:23:35 am] Sam: In fact maybe this is why I like you in a way [27/9/23, 4:23:51 am] Sam: Wait one sec ‎[27/9/23, 4:24:36 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 4:24:45 am] Oli: Interesting [27/9/23, 4:24:50 am] Oli: Maybe the 'Protestant work ethic' [27/9/23, 4:24:54 am] Oli: Which I've got from grandpa [27/9/23, 4:24:57 am] Oli: as he definitely has it [27/9/23, 4:25:01 am] Oli: I do register that in myself [27/9/23, 4:25:03 am] Oli: And I find it odd [27/9/23, 4:25:06 am] Oli: But yet it exists [27/9/23, 4:25:11 am] Oli: And it's part of my mind [27/9/23, 4:25:18 am] Oli: Yet I still behave madly [27/9/23, 4:26:09 am] Sam: It registers to me as slightly Asperger’s-like as well, and I think one of the good traits, but then you aren’t really very Asperger’s-like in many ways so I think prob a coincidence [27/9/23, 4:26:17 am] Oli: Probably [27/9/23, 4:26:30 am] Oli: I often wonder do I have Asperger's or autism [27/9/23, 4:26:33 am] Sam: Or a reflection of the shoddy and over-pathologising/over-physicalising nosology [27/9/23, 4:26:35 am] Oli: I must have a hybrid of the two? [27/9/23, 4:27:22 am] Sam: That Asperger’s is probably a cluster of symptoms that doesn’t reflect one entirely neurological disorder, and prob some symptoms are clustered because eg they are natural psycho-logical responses to some of the other symptoms, and maybe you’ve also developed that sort of trait for some other sufficient reason [27/9/23, 4:27:30 am] Sam: But it does remind me slightly of myself [27/9/23, 4:27:38 am] Sam: Albeit not applied to drugs [27/9/23, 4:27:40 am] Oli: Are you autistic? [27/9/23, 4:27:44 am] Oli: Lol not meant to sound silly [27/9/23, 4:27:47 am] Oli: Or asperger's? [27/9/23, 4:27:50 am] Sam: Oh yeah I have Asperger’s [27/9/23, 4:27:51 am] Oli: I forget which you are [27/9/23, 4:27:54 am] Oli: I must be one of the two [27/9/23, 4:28:00 am] Sam: Diagnosed at like 14 ish, or thereabouts [27/9/23, 4:28:09 am] Oli: I was never diagnosed [27/9/23, 4:28:12 am] Oli: My problem [27/9/23, 4:28:16 am] Oli: Assessed multiple times [27/9/23, 4:28:20 am] Oli: Always somehow copped out [27/9/23, 4:28:24 am] Sam: I think Asperger’s probably almost certainly _does_ have some hard neurology underpinning it, but … wait lemme find an excellent piece [27/9/23, 4:28:27 am] Sam: Copped out? [27/9/23, 4:28:30 am] Oli: Yes [27/9/23, 4:28:32 am] Oli: Not sure how [27/9/23, 4:28:41 am] Oli: At that age it was parental responsibility [27/9/23, 4:28:53 am] Oli: So it just sort of naturally lapsed? [27/9/23, 4:28:55 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 4:28:57 am] Sam: http://www.michaelsamsel.com/Content/Asperger/asperger's_html.html [27/9/23, 4:29:03 am] Oli: I'm convincded I'm somethig or the other [27/9/23, 4:29:09 am] Sam: Bullshitty-sounding title but excellent excellent piece [27/9/23, 4:29:19 am] Sam: May give you a sense of whether you identify or not [27/9/23, 4:29:29 am] Oli: Long fockin' piece [27/9/23, 4:29:32 am] Oli: Must read it [27/9/23, 4:29:33 am] Oli: But yes [27/9/23, 4:29:37 am] Oli: I probably have it [27/9/23, 4:29:40 am] Sam: Type II errors likely but Type I unlikely [27/9/23, 4:29:45 am] Oli: BUT YES [27/9/23, 4:29:47 am] Oli: this goes back [27/9/23, 4:29:49 am] Oli: to my sort of [27/9/23, 4:29:54 am] Oli: original icebreaker point [27/9/23, 4:30:07 am] Oli: I felt that you thought of me as a sort of non-entity privileged tosser [27/9/23, 4:30:12 am] Oli: Which is prob my fault [27/9/23, 4:30:17 am] Sam: Oh no that never crossed my mind [27/9/23, 4:30:18 am] Oli: if I give off that image [27/9/23, 4:30:22 am] Sam: I can see that lots of people might [27/9/23, 4:30:27 am] Oli: Idk why but I got that from you [27/9/23, 4:30:27 am] Oli: lol [27/9/23, 4:30:36 am] Sam: No, though maybe something similar-ish [27/9/23, 4:30:38 am] Oli: and it upset me [27/9/23, 4:30:40 am] Oli: But that is life [27/9/23, 4:30:44 am] Oli: So one lives with it [27/9/23, 4:30:48 am] Sam: I guess in the sense that I thought you were wasting your time on all of this stuff [27/9/23, 4:30:55 am] Oli: Yes that is true [27/9/23, 4:31:01 am] Oli: One hundred percent that is true [27/9/23, 4:31:05 am] Oli: I agree with that [27/9/23, 4:31:15 am] Oli: You know what's funny? ‎[27/9/23, 4:31:33 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 4:31:35 am] Oli: Even the people with whom I associate (definite overprivileged toffs) thought that [27/9/23, 4:31:44 am] Oli: They said it to me verbatim [27/9/23, 4:31:49 am] Oli: Which fucked my mind ‎[27/9/23, 4:32:04 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 4:32:12 am] Oli: I thought 'OK so you register that someone has a mind? Yet you don't present with one? How does that work?' ‎[27/9/23, 4:32:26 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 4:32:57 am] Oli: fucking Freddie [27/9/23, 4:33:02 am] Oli: But he does the same [27/9/23, 4:33:24 am] Oli: lol yes I have too many shalom ancestors [27/9/23, 4:33:27 am] Oli: so does Firsov btw [27/9/23, 4:33:34 am] Oli: He is Russian jew essentially [27/9/23, 4:33:52 am] Oli: Fuck Freddie is so annoying lol [27/9/23, 4:34:06 am] Sam: Interesting in a way I’m not quite able to unpick rn [27/9/23, 4:34:13 am] Sam: How so? [27/9/23, 4:34:18 am] Oli: Yes well it's a weird one [27/9/23, 4:34:21 am] Sam: (Let me count the ways) [27/9/23, 4:34:28 am] Oli: Just saying I did lots of drugs [27/9/23, 4:34:30 am] Oli: OK well.. [27/9/23, 4:34:39 am] Oli: So did he as evinced by him staying up... [27/9/23, 4:34:40 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 4:34:52 am] Oli: AND [27/9/23, 4:34:58 am] Oli: Why the fuck does he do them [27/9/23, 4:35:07 am] Oli: because he also has a fucking ladcuna [27/9/23, 4:35:08 am] Oli: lacuna [27/9/23, 4:35:13 am] Oli: the guy is a big fafg [27/9/23, 4:35:14 am] Oli: fag [27/9/23, 4:35:26 am] Oli: maybe in floreat context he would summon fags [27/9/23, 4:35:30 am] Oli: but he's a fag [27/9/23, 4:35:33 am] Oli: and he can't handle ir [27/9/23, 4:35:34 am] Oli: it [27/9/23, 4:35:39 am] Oli: no wonder he joins us all [27/9/23, 4:35:42 am] Oli: and does drugds [27/9/23, 4:35:44 am] Oli: god bless him [27/9/23, 4:35:47 am] Oli: but fucking annoying [27/9/23, 4:36:02 am] Oli: and THE FUCKING DUPLICITY [27/9/23, 4:36:10 am] Oli: he implies I am a major pablo escobar [27/9/23, 4:36:13 am] Oli: LOL I wish [27/9/23, 4:36:30 am] Oli: I like Freddie though [27/9/23, 4:36:34 am] Oli: He has been nice to me when I needed t [27/9/23, 4:36:35 am] Oli: it [27/9/23, 4:36:37 am] Oli: and supportive [27/9/23, 4:36:40 am] Oli: but he can be so stupid ‎[27/9/23, 4:36:41 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [27/9/23, 4:37:10 am] Sam: Haha my dad is just about old enough that he had fags! He spoke about it with horror when I was young! [27/9/23, 4:37:21 am] Sam: (And presumably was a fag, as I guess they all were) [27/9/23, 4:37:32 am] Sam: Wait sorry reading now [27/9/23, 4:38:31 am] Sam: Ladcuna oddly apt [27/9/23, 4:38:55 am] Sam: He’s definitely a bottom, though at some points an inner charlus has shone through [27/9/23, 4:39:22 am] Oli: Interesting. Sri Lankan granny? [27/9/23, 4:39:36 am] Sam: I’m not proud to say I was sorta turned on by his hauteur when I asked ‘what about your girlfriend?’ once when sending buses and he said something to the effect of ‘oh, her?’ [27/9/23, 4:39:37 am] Oli: Was he Gordonstoun one? :O [27/9/23, 4:39:39 am] Sam: Yup! [27/9/23, 4:39:50 am] Oli: She sounds lovely! ‎[27/9/23, 4:40:02 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 4:40:24 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 4:40:24 am] Oli: lol yes he sent me the same as you got I think [27/9/23, 4:40:34 am] Sam: (Bell Ranch in NM I think it’s called) [27/9/23, 4:40:44 am] Sam: She’s very lovely! [27/9/23, 4:41:10 am] Oli: I think you are a genuinely lovely soul [27/9/23, 4:41:18 am] Oli: Obviously in love with Louis [27/9/23, 4:41:21 am] Oli: Beautiful ‎[27/9/23, 4:41:23 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 4:41:23 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 4:41:35 am] Oli: And I relate to your soul in that respect [27/9/23, 4:41:46 am] Sam: Aww I’m really touched by that [27/9/23, 4:41:46 am] Oli: But we are surrounded by these fucking monotonous tossers [27/9/23, 4:41:49 am] Sam: Really really [27/9/23, 4:42:06 am] Sam: And oddly reassured because I doubt myself [27/9/23, 4:42:11 am] Oli: Really? [27/9/23, 4:42:21 am] Oli: I always thought you didn't [27/9/23, 4:42:23 am] Oli: And envied that [27/9/23, 4:42:38 am] Oli: Oh [27/9/23, 4:42:45 am] Sam: My general self-take is “I am surrounded by idiots who provide no real assurance because I doubt they’d be able to detect my flaws” [27/9/23, 4:42:45 am] Oli: 🥰 [27/9/23, 4:42:55 am] Sam: Which is an odd mix of arrogance and not-arrogance [27/9/23, 4:42:57 am] Oli: Welcome to London [27/9/23, 4:43:05 am] Sam: Or I guess I mean moral idiots or sth like that [27/9/23, 4:43:09 am] Oli: It's actually sadly very true for Lodnon [27/9/23, 4:43:13 am] Oli: Funny [27/9/23, 4:43:20 am] Oli: I tried to make similar distinction [27/9/23, 4:43:44 am] Sam: I had a load of good chats with Ryan about this, about stupidity, about the way it’s become a permanent inborn trait (as fucking everything is now considered to be), not the state of being in a stupor [27/9/23, 4:43:52 am] Oli: Ryan is so nice [27/9/23, 4:43:57 am] Oli: That evening we all had.. [27/9/23, 4:43:58 am] Oli: . [27/9/23, 4:44:03 am] Oli: Must've been Apri [27/9/23, 4:44:06 am] Oli: April [27/9/23, 4:44:08 am] Sam: Aw, yeah, I like him, he’s a good kid! [27/9/23, 4:44:09 am] Oli: You both on meth [27/9/23, 4:44:13 am] Oli: Me doing coke like a nuttrer [27/9/23, 4:44:16 am] Oli: nutter [27/9/23, 4:44:21 am] Oli: Was such a nice evening [27/9/23, 4:44:22 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 4:44:37 am] Sam: And there are good aristo people too, I don’t mean to say there aren’t - I guess the waste is to spend one’s time around people who … aren’t those ones [27/9/23, 4:44:55 am] Sam: Same way my friend Arran squandered his talents by spending his time around dull as hell working class people [27/9/23, 4:44:59 am] Oli: lol the problem with the crowd you describe is they often want to be seen to be seen [27/9/23, 4:45:14 am] Sam: It’s not a purely anti elitist thing is what I’m trying to insist on [27/9/23, 4:45:16 am] Oli: hence why your friend Roman's message 'oh yes someone so obsessed with their title' was actually right [27/9/23, 4:45:27 am] Sam: Yeah I think so [27/9/23, 4:45:32 am] Oli: But I found it annoying to start off with as it struck me as typical haut bourgeois snobbery [27/9/23, 4:45:33 am] Sam: I think you’re overly harsh about Roman [27/9/23, 4:45:36 am] Oli: But he's probably right lol [27/9/23, 4:45:43 am] Oli: LOL Fredde is horrible about him to me [27/9/23, 4:45:47 am] Oli: So I just sort of imbibe that [27/9/23, 4:45:53 am] Oli: I met him once or twice [27/9/23, 4:45:55 am] Oli: years ago [27/9/23, 4:45:57 am] Sam: I think there’s something about “oh _everyone_ is as bad as these people I know, they’re just dissimulating” [27/9/23, 4:46:03 am] Oli: But Freddie doesn't like him idk why [27/9/23, 4:46:06 am] Sam: About Roman? [27/9/23, 4:46:06 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/9/23, 4:46:12 am] Sam: Oh god I can tell you [27/9/23, 4:46:12 am] Oli: Haha yes [27/9/23, 4:46:26 am] Sam: It’s the only time I’ve seen him genuinely clearly shaken and upset and not in control of himself [27/9/23, 4:46:33 am] Sam: And frankly I don’t even nearly understand quite why [27/9/23, 4:46:45 am] Sam: But it was over my sharing Roman’s thoughts about [27/9/23, 4:47:04 am] Oli: lOL Freddie sent me a message saying something like who is this jumped up pouf [27/9/23, 4:47:18 am] Oli: Not sure he used the word pouf (my word)... probably queer or gay [27/9/23, 4:47:20 am] Oli: But still... [27/9/23, 4:47:26 am] Oli: Pot kettle black! [27/9/23, 4:47:54 am] Sam: Well, actually exactly that, it was my saying that Roman had said that he was implausibly concerned about his social status (which is true, as you say), and in the slightly wider context of my (anusefly) sharing Roman’s paranoia that he hadn’t been to Eton at all (which was untrue but I can see why he thought it, esp when Eton in particular must be a claim that a load of fraudsters make (eg Liam Rhys)) [27/9/23, 4:48:06 am] Sam: Lemme find his messages [27/9/23, 4:48:08 am] Sam: Deranged [27/9/23, 4:48:31 am] Oli: Liam-Rhys LOL ‎[27/9/23, 4:48:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 4:48:54 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 4:49:13 am] Sam: “Can’t control others can we?” - not any more you lot fucking can’t! [27/9/23, 4:49:22 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 4:49:34 am] Sam: But yeah… unbalanced [27/9/23, 4:49:42 am] Oli: This is hilarious [27/9/23, 4:49:44 am] Oli: What the hell [27/9/23, 4:49:55 am] Sam: He has a domineering edge which I find kinda hot but socially I can register it as a slight red flag [27/9/23, 4:50:02 am] Oli: I met Pax Romanus at Hell Nightclub once [27/9/23, 4:50:12 am] Sam: Something about the barely controlled angry type to him [27/9/23, 4:50:13 am] Oli: I thought the whole underground cellar was awful [27/9/23, 4:50:23 am] Sam: Like Prince Bill maybe [27/9/23, 4:50:27 am] Oli: Then met him once at someone's party I think [27/9/23, 4:50:29 am] Oli: Odd [27/9/23, 4:50:37 am] Oli: But LOL Freddie's messages here [27/9/23, 4:50:42 am] Oli: They're the definition of unhinged [27/9/23, 4:50:51 am] Sam: Did you know he and Damien had a non-compete pact [27/9/23, 4:50:54 am] Sam: Or whatever you’d call it [27/9/23, 4:51:00 am] Oli: They look very similar [27/9/23, 4:51:00 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 4:51:02 am] Oli: So I can imagine [27/9/23, 4:51:09 am] Sam: They wouldn’t go to heaven on the same night so as not to interfere with one another’s hunting [27/9/23, 4:51:13 am] Sam: Back in the day [27/9/23, 4:51:14 am] Sam: Lmao [27/9/23, 4:51:24 am] Sam: Coordinated with each other [27/9/23, 4:51:29 am] Sam: I loved that [27/9/23, 4:51:31 am] Oli: He's a fucking nutter [27/9/23, 4:51:34 am] Oli: Sorry this is deranged [27/9/23, 4:51:42 am] Oli: You KNOW [27/9/23, 4:51:44 am] Oli: Fred was in the same house [27/9/23, 4:51:46 am] Sam: Yeah I’ve never seen him like that before or since [27/9/23, 4:51:47 am] Oli: as my cousin was lol [27/9/23, 4:51:48 am] Oli: Durnforfd [27/9/23, 4:51:50 am] Oli: Durnfor [27/9/23, 4:51:53 am] Oli: Durnford [27/9/23, 4:51:58 am] Oli: i.e. opposite main school building [27/9/23, 4:52:09 am] Oli: And. he said even then that Fred was pompous [27/9/23, 4:52:17 am] Oli: So he I think has some compled [27/9/23, 4:52:19 am] Oli: complex [27/9/23, 4:52:29 am] Sam: There’s a kind of arrogance but, I suppose much like I said about myself, it’s just an arrogance so complete that it’s seldom ever threatened and it looks like true security [27/9/23, 4:52:57 am] Oli: 'new to it all' ‎[27/9/23, 4:53:05 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 4:53:17 am] Oli: Haha what what my dear chap you're a prole but trying to join the club [27/9/23, 4:53:24 am] Oli: here's a firm handshake to make it alright [27/9/23, 4:53:28 am] Oli: This is brilliant what LOL [27/9/23, 4:53:46 am] Sam: ‘New to it all’ meaning ‘in his own lifetime’, lol [27/9/23, 4:54:03 am] Oli: dear old Fred [27/9/23, 4:54:10 am] Sam: Yeah I registered that and I think said something to you at the time [27/9/23, 4:54:12 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 4:54:28 am] Sam: While talking about wittfenstein’s cottage and his (Freddie’s) grandfather and suchlike [27/9/23, 4:54:42 am] Sam: But yes I think this is very insightful of me [27/9/23, 4:54:44 am] Sam: lol [27/9/23, 4:54:53 am] Oli: grandfather? [27/9/23, 4:54:59 am] Sam: Aw no I’m really oddly touched by what you said [27/9/23, 4:54:59 am] Oli: was he a philosopher? [27/9/23, 4:54:59 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 4:55:22 am] Oli: xxxx [27/9/23, 4:55:27 am] Sam: And I have a sort of crush on you albeit with many qualifications, haha [27/9/23, 4:55:36 am] Oli: Yes that is my point [27/9/23, 4:55:40 am] Oli: the qualifications LOL [27/9/23, 4:55:44 am] Sam: You know what I mean, nothing really hurtful or I wouldn’t say it [27/9/23, 4:55:46 am] Oli: but I always liked you [27/9/23, 4:55:48 am] Oli: Which is odd of me [27/9/23, 4:55:55 am] Oli: But yes that is how the world works [27/9/23, 4:55:59 am] Sam: But no, ok, wait one sec, let me gather my thoughts [27/9/23, 4:56:11 am] Sam: Which is like herding cats [27/9/23, 4:56:16 am] Sam: Though I’m marginally better at herding cats [27/9/23, 4:56:22 am] Oli: I always found you hot [27/9/23, 4:56:25 am] Sam: (This is like “it’s Greek to me” all over again) [27/9/23, 4:56:28 am] Oli: Maybe that sounds odd [27/9/23, 4:56:33 am] Oli: But the personality too [27/9/23, 4:56:33 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 4:56:39 am] Oli: Idk it's more of a friendship thing [27/9/23, 4:56:48 am] Oli: I don't mean let's get into bed and roger [27/9/23, 4:56:56 am] Oli: But you know what I mean [27/9/23, 4:56:58 am] Oli: All of thart [27/9/23, 4:57:00 am] Sam: Please please please don’t say intelligence [27/9/23, 4:57:02 am] Sam: Haha [27/9/23, 4:57:03 am] Oli: that* [27/9/23, 4:57:04 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 4:57:09 am] Oli: I wouldn't use such a crass term [27/9/23, 4:57:12 am] Oli: Populist term [27/9/23, 4:57:16 am] Oli: 🤣 [27/9/23, 4:57:39 am] Oli: AND... [27/9/23, 4:57:44 am] Sam: Because I get that way too much and it makes me kinda nauseous and bluntly there’s maybe probably some truth to it in some sense but also a lot of truth to the fact that I just tick that box for sorta cheating-y reasons (or unintentionally super-stimulus kinda reasons) [27/9/23, 4:57:45 am] Oli: You struck me as having a sort of... [27/9/23, 4:57:50 am] Oli: vulnerable side... [27/9/23, 4:57:52 am] Oli: Like I do... [27/9/23, 4:58:05 am] Oli: Which is why I have forever been intrigued! [27/9/23, 4:58:06 am] Sam: Which boil down to basically: adhd and (relative to most people making the assessment, at least in these one or two ways) social class [27/9/23, 4:58:49 am] Sam: Eg no one would admire Ryan’s girlfriend Ash for speaking Urdu but they’ll admire you for speaking Attic Greek or (far more, because Greek just seems to be met with incomprehension nowadays, and it’s all about…….) Latin [27/9/23, 4:58:58 am] Oli: Urdu? [27/9/23, 4:59:03 am] Oli: Is she Pakistani? [27/9/23, 4:59:05 am] Oli: Indian? [27/9/23, 4:59:06 am] Sam: Aww I think my whole side is vulnerable [27/9/23, 4:59:18 am] Sam: I think it was Urdu but I’m terrible with the Indian languages [27/9/23, 4:59:24 am] Oli: Interesting [27/9/23, 4:59:27 am] Sam: She was maybe from the Kashmir, but maybe it wasn’t quite that [27/9/23, 4:59:34 am] Sam: Maybe gujarat [27/9/23, 4:59:34 am] Oli: Remember when I came to your friend karol's lol [27/9/23, 4:59:36 am] Sam: But fuck knows [27/9/23, 4:59:39 am] Oli: near that hotel Gaga stays in [27/9/23, 4:59:39 am] Sam: I’ll remember before ling [27/9/23, 4:59:49 am] Oli: The Pakistani guy I came with was Imran Khan's nephew haha [27/9/23, 4:59:57 am] Oli: Hence why I know about the dialects [27/9/23, 5:00:00 am] Sam: But I think yes somewhere in the north, near Pakistan, summat [27/9/23, 5:00:03 am] Oli: Urdu Hindu [27/9/23, 5:00:03 am] Oli: etc [27/9/23, 5:00:05 am] Oli: they are snobby [27/9/23, 5:00:13 am] Oli: And one is socially superior [27/9/23, 5:00:15 am] Oli: I forget which [27/9/23, 5:00:20 am] Oli: Maybe Urdu [27/9/23, 5:00:26 am] Sam: I don’t remember you bringing a coolie [27/9/23, 5:00:27 am] Oli: I think Urdu yes [27/9/23, 5:00:30 am] Oli: Oh yes [27/9/23, 5:00:31 am] Oli: He came [27/9/23, 5:00:34 am] Sam: Strange! [27/9/23, 5:00:37 am] Oli: it was at karol's [27/9/23, 5:00:39 am] Oli: whomever that was [27/9/23, 5:00:42 am] Sam: I do remember a very innocent Chinese girl whom I gave heroin to [27/9/23, 5:00:45 am] Oli: mustapha khan lol [27/9/23, 5:00:46 am] Oli: OMG ZHANEL [27/9/23, 5:00:48 am] Oli: she wasn't chinese [27/9/23, 5:00:50 am] Oli: she was kazah [27/9/23, 5:00:53 am] Oli: kazakstahn [27/9/23, 5:00:57 am] Sam: Which I regret because in hindsight she seeemd like the exact sort of person one shouldn’t give heroin to [27/9/23, 5:00:57 am] Oli: spelling? [27/9/23, 5:01:00 am] Oli: but yes [27/9/23, 5:01:00 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 5:01:01 am] Sam: Oh same thing [27/9/23, 5:01:16 am] Oli: mustapha haha [27/9/23, 5:01:28 am] Oli: he was fun ‎[27/9/23, 5:01:33 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 5:01:33 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 5:01:33 am] Oli: yes and recently he's had a lot of trouble [27/9/23, 5:01:39 am] Sam: My cousin Roman ^ [27/9/23, 5:01:39 am] Oli: as imran khan no longer in charge and was nearly killed [27/9/23, 5:01:44 am] Oli: but zhanel [27/9/23, 5:01:44 am] Sam: Chinese looking bit of Siberia [27/9/23, 5:01:48 am] Oli: god bless her [27/9/23, 5:01:52 am] Sam: Prob not ethnically that diff from your friend [27/9/23, 5:01:56 am] Oli: :O [27/9/23, 5:02:00 am] Oli: What's his nationality? [27/9/23, 5:02:06 am] Oli: Siberian mostly? [27/9/23, 5:02:11 am] Oli: Russian [27/9/23, 5:02:12 am] Oli: ethnicity I mean [27/9/23, 5:02:14 am] Sam: Russian - well, from a Russian orphanage [27/9/23, 5:02:17 am] Sam: I guess Siberian [27/9/23, 5:02:26 am] Sam: They’re clearly something similar to Chinese around there [27/9/23, 5:02:41 am] Sam: The ethnic Siberian types, which I guess must be his ancestry at least in part [27/9/23, 5:02:48 am] Sam: Poor Roman [27/9/23, 5:02:59 am] Sam: My aunt who adopted him is a saint [27/9/23, 5:02:59 am] Oli: I can speak a bit of Bengali [27/9/23, 5:03:03 am] Sam: No money [27/9/23, 5:03:04 am] Oli: But that's East Pakistan [27/9/23, 5:03:06 am] Oli: Bangladesh [27/9/23, 5:03:08 am] Oli: Etc. [27/9/23, 5:03:20 am] Oli: OMG [27/9/23, 5:03:28 am] Oli: so your aunt adopted a total stranger? [27/9/23, 5:03:31 am] Oli: That is lovely [27/9/23, 5:03:36 am] Sam: Other aunt went off to LA to work in film and is still nice, I’m not knocking her, but with my mum and both aunts (my mum in the middle) it strikes me that niceness is inversely correlated with wellbeing [27/9/23, 5:03:53 am] Sam: Two! Alessanda from Guatemala as well [27/9/23, 5:04:12 am] Sam: Who is now 18, and Roman is maybe 16, but he doesn’t seem it - not tetarddd or anything but trouble in school etc [27/9/23, 5:04:13 am] Oli: Is this the Harrow and Marylebone aunt? [27/9/23, 5:04:18 am] Sam: And very needy [27/9/23, 5:04:21 am] Sam: Not criticising [27/9/23, 5:04:25 am] Sam: Attachment issues I think [27/9/23, 5:04:33 am] Sam: He’s the sweetest and loveliest kid [27/9/23, 5:04:45 am] Sam: My grandma punched him once after he creeped up on her and frightened her, haha [27/9/23, 5:05:16 am] Sam: But I always found the comparison with (other) Roman instructive, bc my aunt has struggled to get him support (whatever that means) for ages, and got fuck all help [27/9/23, 5:05:36 am] Oli: Where are they all based? [27/9/23, 5:05:38 am] Sam: He was bullied at school, because he’s exactly the sort of kid that gets bullied, and apparently that’s just … nobody’s job to do anything about [27/9/23, 5:05:38 am] Oli: Russia? [27/9/23, 5:05:40 am] Oli: Siberia? [27/9/23, 5:05:41 am] Oli: My god [27/9/23, 5:05:42 am] Sam: Norwich [27/9/23, 5:05:44 am] Sam: Worse [27/9/23, 5:05:59 am] Sam: She was a social worker or something like that [27/9/23, 5:06:11 am] Sam: And she’s a genuinely truly sweet and kind human being [27/9/23, 5:06:29 am] Sam: They had to huddle together in one room of their house because they didn’t have money for gas, I heard [27/9/23, 5:06:36 am] Sam: Christ [27/9/23, 5:06:42 am] Oli: That is terrible [27/9/23, 5:06:57 am] Sam: She got me a few thngs for my birthday and a handmade card and I …. It makes me very very angry [27/9/23, 5:07:05 am] Sam: Yeesh [27/9/23, 5:07:09 am] Sam: God [27/9/23, 5:07:10 am] Sam: Anyway [27/9/23, 5:07:16 am] Sam: Sorry I think I interrupted you [27/9/23, 5:07:17 am] Oli: This upsets me [27/9/23, 5:07:27 am] Oli: No you didn't I don't think [27/9/23, 5:07:40 am] Oli: You responded rightly to a relevant tangent [27/9/23, 5:07:50 am] Oli: You've had an interesting life [27/9/23, 5:08:04 am] Oli: I just feel a bit of awkwardness over all these things [27/9/23, 5:08:15 am] Sam: Her first husband was called Mr Wright, I might’ve said - lots of jokes at the wedding about finding her Mr Right [27/9/23, 5:08:16 am] Oli: Because I am portrayed as some sort of Mr Snooty [27/9/23, 5:08:20 am] Oli: I don't want to be that! [27/9/23, 5:08:23 am] Oli: Fucking madness [27/9/23, 5:08:29 am] Oli: But hello western world [27/9/23, 5:08:32 am] Oli: Hi nice to see you [27/9/23, 5:08:33 am] Oli: Yes [27/9/23, 5:08:38 am] Sam: And then he was a terrible man and beat her up etc etc and they eventually divorced [27/9/23, 5:08:51 am] Oli: omg [27/9/23, 5:08:51 am] Sam: Current husband Roger is nice but an old stoner and maybe doesn’t do as much as he should [27/9/23, 5:09:00 am] Oli: stoner lol [27/9/23, 5:09:01 am] Oli: like Pot [27/9/23, 5:09:02 am] Oli: ? [27/9/23, 5:09:04 am] Sam: No that’s the last sense I had [27/9/23, 5:09:32 am] Oli: Funny how you somehow had a nice sense of me when I always thought you held me in contempt LOL [27/9/23, 5:09:36 am] Oli: what the hell is that about [27/9/23, 5:09:41 am] Oli: My judgement of people maybe [27/9/23, 5:09:49 am] Sam: I think maybe I’m a tiny bit more au fait with that kind of incredibly narrow ‘posh’ cultural obsession than are the people who have that idea [27/9/23, 5:09:52 am] Sam: And thus can distinguish [27/9/23, 5:09:55 am] Sam: Put it this way [27/9/23, 5:10:04 am] Sam: Did I tell you about Mr Richmond? [27/9/23, 5:10:13 am] Oli: Charlie? [27/9/23, 5:10:17 am] Oli: Freddie's father lOL? ‎[27/9/23, 5:10:43 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 5:10:56 am] Sam: Anyway he banged on at me for ages in that very annoying American way [27/9/23, 5:11:07 am] Oli: lol was he American? [27/9/23, 5:11:09 am] Sam: Sorta semi-mockingly (not that that was what bothered me) [27/9/23, 5:11:12 am] Sam: 🥝 [27/9/23, 5:11:13 am] Oli: I see so he was a gay who lived Richmond? [27/9/23, 5:11:20 am] Sam: Ya know [27/9/23, 5:11:32 am] Sam: Where he started off by saying “you’re such a posh Englishman” or something to that effect [27/9/23, 5:11:53 am] Sam: And when I denied it he’d echo whatever I said in an exaggerated yet somehow simultaneously bad English accent [27/9/23, 5:12:09 am] Sam: Yes - fuck knows why he thought this was such a stupendously big deal [27/9/23, 5:12:19 am] Sam: Annoyingly I didn’t even think of Freddie to mention [27/9/23, 5:12:34 am] Sam: (Not that it was adversarial - I was just smiling and making conversation and hoping he’d leave) [27/9/23, 5:12:47 am] Sam: Anyway where was I going with this [27/9/23, 5:12:48 am] Sam: Oh yeah [27/9/23, 5:13:34 am] Sam: I feel like the other people looking at you that way are maybe slightly more towards that guy’s end of the spectrum [27/9/23, 5:14:00 am] Sam: I’m not saying it’s a judgement of posh or non-posh, at least not in the sense of whether you have the birthright or not [27/9/23, 5:14:09 am] Sam: But more in the sense of whether you’re mentally signed up to it or not [27/9/23, 5:14:19 am] Oli: Agreed [27/9/23, 5:14:55 am] Sam: A bit like I qualify as Jewish but I don’t wear a silly hat [27/9/23, 5:15:43 am] Sam: (Side note: why is it hyper-fashionable and (mostly rightly) ok to mock the Old Testament as being primitive and stupid, but _absolutely not_ if you call it the Torah?) ‎ [27/9/23, 5:16:10 am] Sam: Sorry I missed a lot of your message [27/9/23, 5:16:12 am] Sam: s [27/9/23, 5:16:29 am] Oli: haahhaa yes [27/9/23, 5:16:37 am] Oli: GOOD POINT [27/9/23, 5:16:43 am] Oli: I've often wondered this lol [27/9/23, 5:16:57 am] Sam: No I kinda … I guess I always liked you and frankly I do feel soooorta maybe unexpectedly butterflyish [27/9/23, 5:17:40 am] Sam: But I … this is a very confusing thing because I’m not sure what the upshot is [27/9/23, 5:17:46 am] Sam: I suppose it doesn’t matter [27/9/23, 5:18:03 am] Sam: But I feel quite protective of your boyfriend, as bizarre as that is to say [27/9/23, 5:18:10 am] Oli: omg [27/9/23, 5:18:14 am] Oli: This is nice lol [27/9/23, 5:18:19 am] Sam: And I know it’s slightly arbitrary how I’m like this sometimes with certain etoniansand harrovisns [27/9/23, 5:18:26 am] Sam: Dead Rupert for instance [27/9/23, 5:18:37 am] Sam: But he - boyfriend - seems _nice_ [27/9/23, 5:18:45 am] Oli: I cried about Rupert the other day [27/9/23, 5:18:48 am] Oli: Very sad] [27/9/23, 5:18:51 am] Sam: And that’s rare _tout court_ let alone among Etonians [27/9/23, 5:18:58 am] Oli: His funerla was today [27/9/23, 5:19:00 am] Oli: You know [27/9/23, 5:19:04 am] Oli: 26th September [27/9/23, 5:19:08 am] Oli: funeral [27/9/23, 5:19:10 am] Oli: I didn't go [27/9/23, 5:19:15 am] Oli: I couldn't face iot [27/9/23, 5:19:15 am] Oli: it [27/9/23, 5:19:18 am] Sam: Yeah I don’t cry but it fucked me up in some way (as was probably evident from my texts) [27/9/23, 5:19:25 am] Sam: Jesus I’m really sorry [27/9/23, 5:19:30 am] Sam: I don’t know how well you knew him [27/9/23, 5:19:48 am] Oli: Well sort of well enough [27/9/23, 5:19:49 am] Sam: I didn’t go to my friend Alan’s funeral for various reasons revolving around the helpfulness of my presence [27/9/23, 5:19:56 am] Oli: He sort of had sex with me LOl he was that deranged [27/9/23, 5:20:02 am] Oli: I feel very sorry for him [27/9/23, 5:20:07 am] Oli: Fuck what a fucked up state he was in [27/9/23, 5:20:15 am] Sam: That I’m fine with - but also didn’t go to Alex’s grandmother’s, and that feels like a betrayal and I feel intensely and troublingly bad about that [27/9/23, 5:20:21 am] Sam: What do you mean? [27/9/23, 5:20:33 am] Sam: Just that one would normally say that one had sex with him and not vice versa [27/9/23, 5:20:38 am] Sam: So that feels somewhat pregnant [27/9/23, 5:20:41 am] Oli: He came into the room I was staying in and sort of buggered me and then I reciprocated [27/9/23, 5:20:43 am] Oli: THEN... [27/9/23, 5:20:49 am] Oli: I took him downstairs and washed him [27/9/23, 5:20:50 am] Oli: naked [27/9/23, 5:20:53 am] Oli: as he smelt of the streets [27/9/23, 5:20:57 am] Oli: because he'd been sleeping on them [27/9/23, 5:21:02 am] Oli: and made him clean [27/9/23, 5:21:06 am] Oli: God it's biblical [27/9/23, 5:21:10 am] Oli: Terrible [27/9/23, 5:21:16 am] Sam: What in the name of Eurycleia [27/9/23, 5:21:21 am] Oli: Quite [27/9/23, 5:21:24 am] Sam: On the streets? Why not his parents? [27/9/23, 5:21:36 am] Oli: BECAUSE [27/9/23, 5:21:41 am] Oli: they were entitled tossers [27/9/23, 5:21:47 am] Oli: Who thought their son was a silly druggie [27/9/23, 5:21:48 am] Oli: fuck them [27/9/23, 5:21:50 am] Oli: And they're now upset [27/9/23, 5:21:53 am] Oli: Well, haha? WHy? [27/9/23, 5:21:58 am] Oli: Your son fucking killed himself [27/9/23, 5:22:03 am] Oli: You should've supported him [27/9/23, 5:22:14 am] Oli: Stupid idiots [27/9/23, 5:22:20 am] Oli: The cunt with whom I was living... [27/9/23, 5:22:24 am] Oli: Prof Nicholas [27/9/23, 5:22:26 am] Oli: loved Rupert [27/9/23, 5:22:30 am] Oli: 'Hmm yes...' [27/9/23, 5:22:33 am] Oli: 'An Harrovian wow' ‎[27/9/23, 5:22:42 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 5:22:43 am] Oli: 'His mother's godmother was daughter of the Tsar of Russia wow' [27/9/23, 5:22:54 am] Oli: Didn't stop Rupert from killing himself [27/9/23, 5:22:58 am] Oli: Fucking stupd [27/9/23, 5:23:24 am] Oli: I am appalled by it [27/9/23, 5:23:32 am] Oli: It is absolutely harrowing no pun intended [27/9/23, 5:23:40 am] Oli: I am genuinely upset by it [27/9/23, 5:23:47 am] Oli: I couldn't face myself to go to the funeral [27/9/23, 5:23:48 am] Sam: Imagine knowing that all your friends don’t really like you for anything but your schooling [27/9/23, 5:23:55 am] Oli: fucking cunt prof said Leanda de Lisle summoned ihm [27/9/23, 5:23:56 am] Oli: him [27/9/23, 5:23:58 am] Oli: NO SHE DIDN'T [27/9/23, 5:24:06 am] Oli: she replied to his mesage saying thanjs [27/9/23, 5:24:09 am] Oli: and if you're free comd [27/9/23, 5:24:10 am] Oli: come [27/9/23, 5:24:13 am] Oli: like she did to me [27/9/23, 5:24:16 am] Oli: that's all one can say [27/9/23, 5:24:38 am] Oli: Yes and your backgroud [27/9/23, 5:24:39 am] Sam: Yeah likewise (as again is prob obvious) but I never met the guy, it’s just in a … [27/9/23, 5:24:42 am] Sam: one sec [27/9/23, 5:24:44 am] Oli: backgroud [27/9/23, 5:24:48 am] Oli: He'd internalised this nonsense [27/9/23, 5:24:52 am] Oli: And it's tragic [27/9/23, 5:25:19 am] Sam: https://poets.org/poem/refusal-mourn-death-fire-child-london ‎[27/9/23, 5:26:13 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 5:26:13 am] Oli: interesitng [27/9/23, 5:26:22 am] Oli: didn't know DT capable of such [27/9/23, 5:26:28 am] Sam: How do you mean? [27/9/23, 5:26:28 am] Oli: Just read first bit [27/9/23, 5:26:34 am] Oli: Rupet [27/9/23, 5:26:36 am] Oli: Rupert [27/9/23, 5:26:39 am] Oli: He loved it [27/9/23, 5:26:40 am] Sam: Very good at points [27/9/23, 5:26:51 am] Oli: He'd say 'I'm not bourgeois enough to undertsand this' [27/9/23, 5:26:58 am] Oli: 'My family are very grand you see' [27/9/23, 5:27:03 am] Oli: *smokes more crystal meth* [27/9/23, 5:27:05 am] Oli: etc. etc. [27/9/23, 5:27:07 am] Oli: Sad. [27/9/23, 5:27:11 am] Sam: I know this psychology, this reminds me of Roman when he had nothing to like about himself besides Eton [27/9/23, 5:27:12 am] Oli: From his fucking mother [27/9/23, 5:27:23 am] Oli: de lisle is different to Pax Romanus [27/9/23, 5:27:29 am] Oli: de lisle is ethnically a peruvian [27/9/23, 5:27:31 am] Sam: You see all these people worshipping you for this stupid thing and you go along with it, if you’re psychically vulnerable [27/9/23, 5:27:45 am] Oli: his father was adopted by a gentry grandee in Leicestershire [27/9/23, 5:27:56 am] Sam: But that doesn’t mean the hollowness of your popularity isn’t … uncomfortable, anxious, whatever you’d call it [27/9/23, 5:27:58 am] Oli: 3 surnames: March Philipps de Lisle [27/9/23, 5:28:08 am] Oli: and his mother (biological) genuinely grand [27/9/23, 5:28:09 am] Oli: BUT STILL [27/9/23, 5:28:17 am] Oli: the adoption enough to instill insecurity [27/9/23, 5:28:21 am] Oli: so he was always insecure in that world [27/9/23, 5:28:25 am] Oli: Which says a lot about thsi country [27/9/23, 5:28:36 am] Oli: His father ethnically Peruvian [27/9/23, 5:28:47 am] Sam: I mean, yes, and it’s …. [27/9/23, 5:29:05 am] Oli: and the fucker killed himself [27/9/23, 5:29:07 am] Oli: So tragic [27/9/23, 5:29:11 am] Oli: That says it all [27/9/23, 5:29:15 am] Oli: I am so guilty [27/9/23, 5:29:20 am] Sam: God maybe one other ground of sympathy in some way is that I have got very, VERY used to getting along with people by suppressing my rage and stupefaction and contempt and whatever else [27/9/23, 5:29:21 am] Oli: I don't know what more I could've done [27/9/23, 5:29:23 am] Oli: But that's life [27/9/23, 5:29:38 am] Sam: Ya don’t become vegetarian at 6 years old and not learn that lesson [27/9/23, 5:29:38 am] Oli: It has demented me [27/9/23, 5:29:55 am] Sam: But yeah suffice it to say I feel that way about all of this ridiculous bollocks [27/9/23, 5:30:22 am] Oli: Yes you taught me interesting lesson las tnight [27/9/23, 5:30:24 am] Oli: last* [27/9/23, 5:30:28 am] Sam: I don’t know what could have been done, I don’t quite know what even happened or who he even was [27/9/23, 5:30:39 am] Oli: I feel guilty [27/9/23, 5:30:48 am] Oli: I'll send screenshot in your spirit [27/9/23, 5:31:21 am] Sam: Oh no I think we’re all like this, and at least slaughterhouses (wisely) don’t have glass walls ‎[27/9/23, 5:31:40 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 5:31:45 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 5:31:56 am] Sam: It’s an endless challenge to not be indifferent to people (or animals or fetus or others) [27/9/23, 5:32:03 am] Sam: Wait sorry reading [27/9/23, 5:32:11 am] Oli: Sadly I agree [27/9/23, 5:32:15 am] Oli: oh btw [27/9/23, 5:32:21 am] Oli: I'll also send another [27/9/23, 5:32:30 am] Oli: that harrovian you (probably rightly) didn't like [27/9/23, 5:32:37 am] Oli: I told him about your tribute to de lisle [27/9/23, 5:32:40 am] Oli: and he respected it [27/9/23, 5:33:03 am] Sam: > can’t say I didn’t see it coming No, you couldn’t, because that would be true [27/9/23, 5:33:15 am] Sam: Christ ‎[27/9/23, 5:33:22 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 5:33:24 am] Sam: And what an unflattering thing to say about oneself anyway ‎[27/9/23, 5:33:31 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 5:33:40 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 5:33:51 am] Sam: “Yes I saw that he was going to commit suicide but I decided to wait so that I could say ‘I told you so’, or alternatively I just didn’t give a fuck0 [27/9/23, 5:33:55 am] Oli: Sad yes [27/9/23, 5:34:02 am] Oli: This upsets me too [27/9/23, 5:34:10 am] Oli: It's a sign that we live in a cruel country [27/9/23, 5:34:15 am] Sam: Ah Catholic of course [27/9/23, 5:34:40 am] Oli: Yes he is [27/9/23, 5:34:45 am] Oli: I hate Catholics [27/9/23, 5:34:49 am] Oli: That's Irish Prot [27/9/23, 5:34:56 am] Oli: But I feel deeply guilty about de lizle [27/9/23, 5:34:57 am] Oli: Lisle [27/9/23, 5:35:05 am] Sam: Shit I’m sorry [27/9/23, 5:35:05 am] Oli: and don't know what to do [27/9/23, 5:35:11 am] Oli: His funeral was 26th Sept [27/9/23, 5:35:12 am] Oli: it's awful [27/9/23, 5:35:16 am] Oli: BUT [27/9/23, 5:35:23 am] Oli: so many fuckers have mental health crises [27/9/23, 5:35:27 am] Oli: 'fuckers' meant in endearing way [27/9/23, 5:35:30 am] Sam: That you feel guilty is a good sign in itself (I don’t know if you bear any guilt but I mean it speaks well of you) [27/9/23, 5:35:34 am] Oli: And it's a problem with our country [27/9/23, 5:35:41 am] Sam: Oh dw I’m not one for silly PC language [27/9/23, 5:35:59 am] Sam: ‘More fussed by’ etc [27/9/23, 5:36:08 am] Sam: And yes I don’t know what can be done [27/9/23, 5:36:11 am] Sam: I think [27/9/23, 5:36:13 am] Sam: Wait one sec [27/9/23, 5:36:19 am] Sam: Obv not a complete sentence! [27/9/23, 5:36:45 am] Sam: I think - not to be R D Laing here - that it _is_ some kind of sickness in our society [27/9/23, 5:37:05 am] Sam: NHS funding has not really gone down, sorry, whether I like the Tories or not, that's not true [27/9/23, 5:37:13 am] Sam: Nor has clinical practice changed much [27/9/23, 5:37:16 am] Sam: More people are coming in [27/9/23, 5:37:17 am] Oli: I feel sorry for Fred also [27/9/23, 5:37:20 am] Sam: That's the beginning and end of it [27/9/23, 5:37:25 am] Oli: One night Fred got really depressed lol [27/9/23, 5:37:31 am] Oli: But he is just his own problem [27/9/23, 5:37:36 am] Sam: And the beginning and end of _that_ is that, well, what the fuck have they got to be happy about? [27/9/23, 5:37:53 am] Oli: They've fucked it royally [27/9/23, 5:38:08 am] Oli: Little to nothing [27/9/23, 5:38:15 am] Oli: Cunts [27/9/23, 5:38:19 am] Sam: Really? This actually interests me - I tried endlessly to get him to take off the stiff and discomfiting mask but couldn't and after swinging at him with an ice pick I finally gave up [27/9/23, 5:38:21 am] Oli: Sadly that's how they come across [27/9/23, 5:38:35 am] Sam: Who's fucked what, sorry? [27/9/23, 5:38:48 am] Oli: Yes the non-Conservative party.. [27/9/23, 5:38:52 am] Oli: They've fucked the NHS [27/9/23, 5:38:56 am] Sam: Tories and NHS? In some senses yes and I have no love for them but I don't think this is entirely them [27/9/23, 5:39:01 am] Oli: and anything else we were supposed to do [27/9/23, 5:39:01 am] Sam: well [27/9/23, 5:39:04 am] Sam: ok [27/9/23, 5:39:15 am] Sam: but in a way that's less about funding and more about the stupid reorgs [27/9/23, 5:39:23 am] Sam: endless reorgs [27/9/23, 5:39:25 am] Sam: sure i said [27/9/23, 5:40:02 am] Sam: mum's cousin in (much-reviled) nhs mgmt, smart guy, sensible, seems on the verge of suicide or retirement (whichever comes first), one reorg has barely finished (and sometimes _not_ finished) when the next starts, etc [27/9/23, 5:40:18 am] Oli: He is a very sweet person but it's hard. Welcome to England. [27/9/23, 5:40:33 am] Sam: (the guy on the left-hand side of that video with my grandma about the house buying, next to my mum at the table ....... why am i saying this, it barely matters, lol) [27/9/23, 5:40:34 am] Oli: I feel sorry for the focker [27/9/23, 5:40:45 am] Oli: Makes sense. [27/9/23, 5:40:51 am] Oli: Welcome to the fucking UK [27/9/23, 5:40:58 am] Oli: Why have we managed to make such a mess of it? [27/9/23, 5:41:08 am] Sam: Well, if he's at all open to that, I'm very happy to provide any support required for him to become something other than what he is [27/9/23, 5:41:19 am] Oli: Not sure he is hard to open up [27/9/23, 5:41:22 am] Sam: (I am joking in the wording but the point is serious) [27/9/23, 5:41:33 am] Oli: He is an odd one [27/9/23, 5:41:34 am] Sam: Psychically???? [27/9/23, 5:41:38 am] Sam: Definitely ime [27/9/23, 5:41:40 am] Oli: Yes lol [27/9/23, 5:41:47 am] Sam: Haha [27/9/23, 5:41:55 am] Oli: Fuck [27/9/23, 5:42:03 am] Oli: That Harrovian I just sent you a screenshot of [27/9/23, 5:42:06 am] Sam: We tried [27/9/23, 5:42:12 am] Oli: Just sent me an Insta message asking 'am I disco?' [27/9/23, 5:42:13 am] Sam: Yeah? [27/9/23, 5:42:17 am] Sam: Don't tell me he killed himself [27/9/23, 5:42:18 am] Sam: oh [27/9/23, 5:42:20 am] Sam: ok [27/9/23, 5:42:22 am] Sam: good [27/9/23, 5:42:23 am] Oli: Means: 'you up for coke?' [27/9/23, 5:42:25 am] Oli: Madness [27/9/23, 5:42:26 am] Sam: wait what's disco? [27/9/23, 5:42:27 am] Oli: No thank you [27/9/23, 5:42:28 am] Sam: oh ok [27/9/23, 5:42:30 am] Sam: what [27/9/23, 5:42:33 am] Oli: Sadly these people are their own enemies [27/9/23, 5:42:40 am] Sam: odi profanum vulgus [27/9/23, 5:42:41 am] Oli: Disco. You up for a party? [27/9/23, 5:42:42 am] Sam: & arceo [27/9/23, 5:42:47 am] Oli: A 'sesh' they call it [27/9/23, 5:42:47 am] Sam: Like disco balls? [27/9/23, 5:42:52 am] Sam: Like chemsex? [27/9/23, 5:42:56 am] Sam: Is coke now a chemsex thing? [27/9/23, 5:42:59 am] Oli: LOL no sniffing coke around a coffee table [27/9/23, 5:43:00 am] Oli: On a sofa [27/9/23, 5:43:03 am] Sam: That sounds vaguely chemsexesque [27/9/23, 5:43:06 am] Oli: but probably [27/9/23, 5:43:10 am] Sam: Oh weird, maybe the argot has spread [27/9/23, 5:43:22 am] Sam: I know Cialis covers a multitude of sins [27/9/23, 5:43:24 am] Oli: Well it is stupid [27/9/23, 5:43:34 am] Oli: Ironically I'm on nothing tonight [27/9/23, 5:43:38 am] Oli: but a bottle of re [27/9/23, 5:43:40 am] Oli: red* [27/9/23, 5:43:45 am] Sam: I'm on very little [27/9/23, 5:43:51 am] Sam: I like you a lot incidentally [27/9/23, 5:43:53 am] Oli: Though my sleep scedule is such that I stay up [27/9/23, 5:43:55 am] Oli: schedul [27/9/23, 5:43:58 am] Oli: schedule [27/9/23, 5:44:00 am] Sam: Much more when not on Himmler [27/9/23, 5:44:04 am] Oli: omg [27/9/23, 5:44:10 am] Oli: I never thought this lol [27/9/23, 5:44:17 am] Sam: Sorry about semi-storming out every single time you came around lol [27/9/23, 5:44:18 am] Oli: That is a stupid triviality [27/9/23, 5:44:48 am] Oli: Himmler, as with many of the Nazi high command, was such a mediocrity I genuinely find his success fascinating. [27/9/23, 5:44:49 am] Sam: Not out of moral objection or whatever, and I knew it was not sincere (whatever that would mean), but it didn't make it much more entertaining, haha [27/9/23, 5:45:01 am] Oli: What is it about such dictatorships that allow people like that to thrive? [27/9/23, 5:45:18 am] Oli: ALSO I find the name absolutely hilarious: Heinrich Himmler. Normal British name? [27/9/23, 5:45:24 am] Oli: But yes... I get your point ‎[27/9/23, 5:45:25 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 5:45:41 am] Sam: Probably the dictator [27/9/23, 5:45:42 am] Sam: lol [27/9/23, 5:45:48 am] Oli: LOL he basically was told the same thing [27/9/23, 5:45:57 am] Oli: He was too interested in penises to listen [27/9/23, 5:46:17 am] Sam: No funnily enough this time he did ‎[27/9/23, 5:46:26 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 5:46:39 am] Oli: I always thought you held me in contempt [27/9/23, 5:46:40 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 5:46:42 am] Sam: Point to Fred! [27/9/23, 5:46:46 am] Oli: That's the point [27/9/23, 5:46:47 am] Oli: haha [27/9/23, 5:46:58 am] Sam: No are you serious? I wouldn’t waste my time if I did [27/9/23, 5:47:00 am] Sam: Wait one sec [27/9/23, 5:47:10 am] Oli: lol anyone knows HH was a fucking chicken farmer [27/9/23, 5:47:13 am] Oli: Unless one is Fred GL [27/9/23, 5:47:18 am] Oli: YOU KNOW [27/9/23, 5:47:22 am] Oli: HIS SNAPCHAT [27/9/23, 5:47:23 am] Oli: USER [27/9/23, 5:47:24 am] Oli: USED TO BE [27/9/23, 5:47:27 am] Oli: 'GoodwoodFred' [27/9/23, 5:47:28 am] Oli: LOOOL [27/9/23, 5:47:35 am] Oli: He deleted it years ago [27/9/23, 5:47:41 am] Oli: But fucking hell ‎[27/9/23, 5:47:59 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 5:48:11 am] Oli: omg [27/9/23, 5:48:25 am] Oli: I always thought you sort of did but were trying to 'verify' it intellectuall [27/9/23, 5:48:25 am] Oli: y [27/9/23, 5:48:29 am] Sam: Yes I had a running joke with him that it would make a good Grindr name too [27/9/23, 5:48:29 am] Oli: Hence why you still spoke to m [27/9/23, 5:48:30 am] Oli: me [27/9/23, 5:48:38 am] Oli: Lol maybe I'm paranoid [27/9/23, 5:48:42 am] Sam: Oh god no [27/9/23, 5:48:51 am] Sam: No I think I give this impression [27/9/23, 5:49:05 am] Sam: No I don’t, at all [27/9/23, 5:49:08 am] Oli: I've known Fred since 2016/2017 [27/9/23, 5:49:14 am] Oli: He's always been a bit camp [27/9/23, 5:49:19 am] Oli: And now it makes sense [27/9/23, 5:49:27 am] Oli: Fuck the guy's a queer [27/9/23, 5:49:27 am] Oli: lol [27/9/23, 5:49:37 am] Sam: And I really couldn’t care less about this intellect thing - I seem to present either intellectual or posh, depending who is judging and where they’re from and what they’re insecure about [27/9/23, 5:49:39 am] Oli: Yes idl why [27/9/23, 5:49:41 am] Oli: idk why* [27/9/23, 5:49:51 am] Sam: (Because it’s always the thing they’re insecure about) [27/9/23, 5:50:15 am] Sam: Wait no I don’t know how that applies here [27/9/23, 5:50:22 am] Oli: Oh this is so nice [27/9/23, 5:50:29 am] Sam: I don’t think it really does, or not afaict [27/9/23, 5:50:34 am] Oli: lol I am astonished at how confused I could've been [27/9/23, 5:50:37 am] Sam: I meant ‘always’ in a not absolutely literal sense [27/9/23, 5:50:44 am] Sam: ‘Always +/- 5’ [27/9/23, 5:51:50 am] Sam: Honestly check out the Fred video [27/9/23, 5:52:14 am] Sam: I would send the whole chat but … god I over share but I’m always paranoid that people think I think certain things about them [27/9/23, 5:52:19 am] Sam: And often they do think that [27/9/23, 5:52:23 am] Sam: For one reason or another [27/9/23, 5:52:57 am] Oli: Fred needs help [27/9/23, 5:53:00 am] Oli: But so do the whole lot [27/9/23, 5:53:04 am] Sam: I gave Alex Camm my phone to look through for like half an hour, lol, to satisfy himself (he didn’t demand it, if anything I foisted it on him, but he’d been unsure because this was mid Damien Wars) [27/9/23, 5:53:08 am] Oli: I knew his brother before Fred LOL [27/9/23, 5:53:46 am] Oli: I LIVED IN A SQUART [27/9/23, 5:53:48 am] Oli: squat [27/9/23, 5:53:52 am] Oli: with charlie march [27/9/23, 5:53:54 am] Oli: and philip firsov [27/9/23, 5:53:59 am] Oli: for 1 month [27/9/23, 5:54:04 am] Oli: was hilarious [27/9/23, 5:54:13 am] Oli: They took over an old embassy [27/9/23, 5:54:22 am] Oli: Was brilliant [27/9/23, 5:55:05 am] Sam: Belgrave Square? The Syrian one? Or the one near Benji’s old flat? [27/9/23, 5:57:34 am] Oli: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211942/50m-Mayfair-mansion-invaded-artist-squatter-group.html [27/9/23, 5:58:36 am] Oli: future duke of richmond lived here happily [27/9/23, 6:00:07 am] Oli: 'His fellow residents include an Cambridge graduate, a former Marlborough College pupil and Philip Firsov, the son of Russian composers. Mr Firsov is wearing shorts and a pair of winkle-pickers while sweating over a piece of metalwork. His room is one of around 25 in the main residence.' [27/9/23, 6:00:12 am] Oli: I don't know why this cracks me up so much [27/9/23, 6:00:15 am] Oli: But fucking hell [27/9/23, 6:00:18 am] Sam: And the bollocks Northern Alliance that they’re still trying to pretend is an opposition to the Taliban [27/9/23, 6:00:27 am] Sam: Hahaha great [27/9/23, 6:00:28 am] Oli: YES [27/9/23, 6:00:45 am] Sam: Oh you know the story [27/9/23, 6:01:04 am] Sam: Might’ve been SEALs or Green Berets that trained them actually [27/9/23, 6:01:11 am] Sam: But yes approximately true [27/9/23, 6:01:19 am] Sam: What goes on in Mexico is fucking horrifying [27/9/23, 6:02:00 am] Sam: My sister was just there, in Michoacan and Nuevo Leon, travelling by bus along those interstate roads [27/9/23, 6:02:06 am] Sam: Sooner her than me [27/9/23, 6:02:24 am] Sam: Esp after they kidnapped that bus load of tourists and forced them to fight to the death [27/9/23, 6:02:57 am] Sam: Or the bus load of student protestors who’d accidentally stolen a bus with drugs hidden in it (like a bad movie script), and tortured them to death with the connivance of the state governor who was in their pocket [27/9/23, 6:03:06 am] Sam: Think I’ll take a cab [27/9/23, 6:03:11 am] Oli: Quite [27/9/23, 6:03:12 am] Sam: But no jesus [27/9/23, 6:03:15 am] Oli: Not a nice place to be [27/9/23, 6:03:16 am] Sam: It’s horrifying there [27/9/23, 6:03:28 am] Oli: How your sister went there is amazing [27/9/23, 6:03:32 am] Sam: Some of it is relatively ok and unscathed, but much of it has been scathed quite a bit [27/9/23, 6:04:16 am] Sam: Not for necessarily good or bad reasons, just neutral I think, and of course there’ll be millions who go about their lives or holidays and are totally fine, it’s a country the size of the US and all, but it’s pretty fucking horrifying [27/9/23, 6:04:35 am] Sam: And somewhere like Ciudad Juarez you just wouldn’t go at all categorically ever [27/9/23, 6:05:03 am] Sam: Like, there are places like that where you’re not even _statistically sorta probably in the grand scheme of things [etc]_ safe [27/9/23, 6:05:16 am] Sam: I really meant what I said about the Peter Hitchens thing too [27/9/23, 6:05:33 am] Sam: I don’t think it’s an answer for us to say “well it would be better if drugs were legalised” [27/9/23, 6:05:48 am] Sam: For one, I think that’s at best considerably more uncertain than some people seem to think it is [27/9/23, 6:06:26 am] Sam: For, uh, two, it would be better if we had unicorns, but we don’t, and we’re making the decision we make in the circumstances we’re in [27/9/23, 6:06:34 am] Sam: God, oh well [27/9/23, 6:06:43 am] Sam: One can’t live up to an impossible ethical standard all the time [27/9/23, 6:07:02 am] Sam: But I don’t think that’s an argument for lying to oneself - I don’t like the idea of the ought feeding back into the is ‎[27/9/23, 6:07:24 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [27/9/23, 6:07:32 am] Sam: ^ forwarded (in case forgot) [27/9/23, 6:07:49 am] Sam: Anyway sorry this is crazy I really really need to work [27/9/23, 6:07:50 am] Oli: Alex is Camm? [27/9/23, 6:07:58 am] Sam: Yeah exactly [27/9/23, 6:07:58 am] Oli: LOL you work at 6am? [27/9/23, 6:08:03 am] Sam: He disagreed strongly [27/9/23, 6:08:11 am] Oli: I can't even do anything [27/9/23, 6:08:14 am] Sam: Well, chores, stuff I wanted to get done yesterday and then overnight, haha [27/9/23, 6:08:18 am] Sam: Not blaming you of course [27/9/23, 6:08:24 am] Oli: I am a concubine [27/9/23, 6:08:29 am] Sam: Obviously I wanted to have the conversation [27/9/23, 6:08:29 am] Oli: 6am lol [27/9/23, 6:08:33 am] Sam: Shit yeah what’s up with that [27/9/23, 6:08:42 am] Oli: Normal life for some [27/9/23, 6:08:44 am] Sam: Fuck it let’s take 15 more mins [27/9/23, 6:08:49 am] Sam: What do you mean by that? [27/9/23, 6:08:49 am] Oli: LOL omg [27/9/23, 6:08:51 am] Oli: this is mad [27/9/23, 6:08:56 am] Oli: You are like Edo [27/9/23, 6:08:57 am] Sam: I refuse to believe this of dander!!!! [27/9/23, 6:08:59 am] Sam: Dander [27/9/23, 6:09:01 am] Sam: Cancer [27/9/23, 6:09:03 am] Sam: Xander [27/9/23, 6:09:02 am] Oli: the Harrovian you dislike lOL [27/9/23, 6:09:10 am] Oli: lives Earl's Court [27/9/23, 6:09:12 am] Sam: Oh how???? [27/9/23, 6:09:15 am] Oli: He is up all night [27/9/23, 6:09:16 am] Oli: and then [27/9/23, 6:09:18 am] Oli: fucking [27/9/23, 6:09:19 am] Oli: goes to work [27/9/23, 6:09:19 am] Sam: I’ll kill myspef [27/9/23, 6:09:22 am] Sam: Oh ok [27/9/23, 6:09:22 am] Oli: high on coke [27/9/23, 6:09:23 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 6:09:32 am] Sam: Nah not coke but meth is very good for that [27/9/23, 6:09:53 am] Oli: lol yes [27/9/23, 6:09:57 am] Sam: Of all the things it does well, it is stupendously, stupendously good for waking you up and _grnuiely _ waking you up [27/9/23, 6:10:01 am] Oli: when I had a drag of your pipe [27/9/23, 6:10:03 am] Oli: it felt similar to cokd [27/9/23, 6:10:05 am] Sam: lol dammit my spelling [27/9/23, 6:10:09 am] Oli: it just exacerbated the high [27/9/23, 6:10:10 am] Oli: coke* [27/9/23, 6:10:20 am] Sam: Prob helped that many of my Fred chats were had on my second or third night in a row awake [27/9/23, 6:10:30 am] Sam: Really? Maybe you needed more [27/9/23, 6:10:32 am] Oli: really? [27/9/23, 6:10:34 am] Oli: LOL] [27/9/23, 6:10:38 am] Sam: Even first time it kept me awake [27/9/23, 6:10:44 am] Oli: yes I only had a small bit [27/9/23, 6:10:45 am] Sam: Yeah I’m sure I said to him [27/9/23, 6:10:55 am] Sam: It helped me form a mind meld [27/9/23, 6:10:56 am] Oli: this is brilliant [27/9/23, 6:10:58 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 6:11:01 am] Sam: Like Christian bale in that film [27/9/23, 6:11:08 am] Sam: Kkk I know the name of the film [27/9/23, 6:11:08 am] Oli: BATMAN? [27/9/23, 6:11:10 am] Sam: Ok* [27/9/23, 6:11:13 am] Sam: The machinist [27/9/23, 6:11:25 am] Sam: Don’t look up photos if you’re home alone or have anorexia or whatever [27/9/23, 6:11:32 am] Sam: Fucking insane [27/9/23, 6:11:44 am] Oli: lol [27/9/23, 6:11:47 am] Oli: eberyone used to think [27/9/23, 6:11:50 am] Oli: i had anorexia [27/9/23, 6:11:54 am] Oli: no such thing [27/9/23, 6:11:56 am] Oli: haha for me [27/9/23, 6:12:06 am] Oli: machinist interesting [27/9/23, 6:12:25 am] Oli: no xander/dander/cancer doesn't purposefully make me feel imprisone [27/9/23, 6:12:25 am] Oli: d [27/9/23, 6:12:34 am] Oli: it's just my own subjectivity I suppose ‎[27/9/23, 6:12:45 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 6:12:46 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 6:13:00 am] Oli: yes just googled the machinist [27/9/23, 6:13:03 am] Oli: I should watch it some day [27/9/23, 6:13:06 am] Oli: 2004 [27/9/23, 6:13:10 am] Sam: Wait what happens then? [27/9/23, 6:13:20 am] Sam: I’m really confused about the nature of this [27/9/23, 6:13:38 am] Sam: I’m not doubting you obviously but I have woefully little information and thus little to say to interpretive comments [27/9/23, 6:13:53 am] Oli: How underweght [27/9/23, 6:13:59 am] Oli: I may have had same thing [27/9/23, 6:14:17 am] Sam: Not THAT underweight - like, 40kg, 50kg, summat [27/9/23, 6:14:17 am] Oli: OH [27/9/23, 6:14:27 am] Oli: I don't feel that he is abusing me. Quite the opposite [27/9/23, 6:14:37 am] Sam: It’s the good old rosenhan thing [27/9/23, 6:14:40 am] Sam: Oh what? [27/9/23, 6:14:55 am] Oli: But just sometimes it's my own mental state and he doesn't quite understand though he knows more than most. [27/9/23, 6:15:11 am] Oli: And tries to help but I do not like being a burden so try to deal myself. [27/9/23, 6:15:24 am] Oli: AND, this is the MAD thing, my social commitments take over. [27/9/23, 6:15:32 am] Sam: Yeah this sounds very much like a ‘no bad people here’ situation [27/9/23, 6:16:16 am] Oli: I feel imprisoned in Edinburgh lol [27/9/23, 6:16:26 am] Oli: I love summer because we can be in London [27/9/23, 6:16:29 am] Sam: I don’t want to say anything too strong in case I’m somehow totally wrong and it ends up like my aunt and Mr Wright, _but_ I just get the strong sense that he’s a good soul, from the way he talks and looks etc [27/9/23, 6:16:36 am] Sam: Despite my friend Alan’s advice [27/9/23, 6:16:36 am] Oli: Summer... well early summer it starts! [27/9/23, 6:16:38 am] Oli: But yes [27/9/23, 6:16:42 am] Sam: (“Never trust an Etonian”) [27/9/23, 6:16:55 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 6:17:13 am] Sam: (He was in the literary world in the late 20th century) [27/9/23, 6:17:13 am] Oli: I hate this British culture of 'Etonian X Y Z' [27/9/23, 6:17:19 am] Oli: But maybe it is true [27/9/23, 6:17:23 am] Sam: No in his case it was very much from experience [27/9/23, 6:17:37 am] Sam: But, as said to you and Fred, I think at some point Eton decidedly changed and became much more normal [27/9/23, 6:17:55 am] Sam: Older people, past a certain point, clearly remember it in a much more idiosyncratic mode [27/9/23, 6:17:58 am] Oli: Fred stayed with us [27/9/23, 6:18:01 am] Oli: in Scotland [27/9/23, 6:18:03 am] Oli: maybe mid year [27/9/23, 6:18:05 am] Oli: He was MAD! [27/9/23, 6:18:11 am] Oli: He is a fucking LOON [27/9/23, 6:18:17 am] Oli: But quite funny [27/9/23, 6:18:38 am] Sam: I dunno but I suspect if you looked through the school’s history you would find some event or other, some big event that watered down the weird cult-like culture [27/9/23, 6:18:54 am] Oli: Yes that could be a thing [27/9/23, 6:19:04 am] Sam: Wait how do you mean? Or alternatively about Xander? [27/9/23, 6:19:23 am] Sam: I again feel quite protective of you and Xander somehow [27/9/23, 6:19:30 am] Sam: Maybe mainly of him, hahaha [27/9/23, 6:19:37 am] Sam: Like my mum and poor old polly [27/9/23, 6:19:50 am] Sam: I don’t know [27/9/23, 6:19:51 am] Sam: Wait [27/9/23, 6:19:54 am] Sam: What I sent to Fred [27/9/23, 6:19:59 am] Oli: LOL [27/9/23, 6:20:06 am] Oli: You can come and protect him in Edinburgh [27/9/23, 6:20:12 am] Oli: Stop t' coooooooke [27/9/23, 6:20:15 am] Oli: Hilarious haha [27/9/23, 6:20:22 am] Oli: Everyone thinks I am mad [27/9/23, 6:20:26 am] Oli: Well! ‎[27/9/23, 6:20:29 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 6:20:45 am] Sam: The green ticked one [27/9/23, 6:20:46 am] Oli: Oh Xander idk about his school lol [27/9/23, 6:20:55 am] Sam: Is how I’d feel if I somehow caused any rift [27/9/23, 6:20:57 am] Sam: I think [27/9/23, 6:21:00 am] Oli: But Fred I know to be a bit loony [27/9/23, 6:21:17 am] Sam: No, lunatics are interesting [27/9/23, 6:21:25 am] Oli: OMG [27/9/23, 6:21:28 am] Sam: If there’s one thing a lunatic is, it’s interesting [27/9/23, 6:21:28 am] Oli: is this Fred [27/9/23, 6:21:29 am] Oli: lol [27/9/23, 6:21:47 am] Sam: It’s a screenshot of my messages with Jake in 2019 about Louis [27/9/23, 6:21:57 am] Oli: He was the Eton captain against Harrow at Lord's and funny thing... [27/9/23, 6:21:59 am] Sam: A screenshot sent to Fred, sorry, I meant to say [27/9/23, 6:22:04 am] Oli: Prof Nick Shaughnessy said 'wow...' [27/9/23, 6:22:12 am] Oli: 'How amazing... that's social history' [27/9/23, 6:22:23 am] Sam: He’s fucking social history [27/9/23, 6:22:23 am] Oli: I am so upset with nicholas [27/9/23, 6:22:26 am] Oli: He is a lovely man [27/9/23, 6:22:30 am] Oli: But so misguided [27/9/23, 6:22:33 am] Sam: We’re all fucking social history [27/9/23, 6:22:43 am] Oli: He sends me messages everyday sort of trying to make things up [27/9/23, 6:22:45 am] Oli: But it's odd [27/9/23, 6:22:48 am] Oli: I just feel odd [27/9/23, 6:23:08 am] Oli: I like NICK [27/9/23, 6:23:09 am] Oli: BUT [27/9/23, 6:23:10 am] Oli: FUCK [27/9/23, 6:23:12 am] Oli: WHEN DE LISLE WAS AT HIS [27/9/23, 6:23:14 am] Oli: NICK SID [27/9/23, 6:23:15 am] Oli: SAID [27/9/23, 6:23:19 am] Oli: 'wow an harrovian here' [27/9/23, 6:23:21 am] Oli: 'Amazing' [27/9/23, 6:23:26 am] Oli: truth is it was a fucking troubled man [27/9/23, 6:23:33 am] Oli: squatting in his downstairs bathroom [27/9/23, 6:23:34 am] Oli: who is now dead [27/9/23, 6:23:37 am] Oli: Absolutely appalling [27/9/23, 6:24:12 am] Oli: Fucking disgraceful [27/9/23, 6:24:50 am] Oli: I AM [27/9/23, 6:24:50 am] Oli: SO [27/9/23, 6:24:53 am] Oli: APALLLED [27/9/23, 6:24:55 am] Oli: at that [27/9/23, 6:24:56 am] Oli: my god [27/9/23, 6:24:58 am] Oli: what a joke [27/9/23, 6:25:01 am] Oli: AND [27/9/23, 6:25:02 am] Oli: FUCK [27/9/23, 6:25:04 am] Oli: NICHOLAS SENT DE LISLE [27/9/23, 6:25:07 am] Oli: PACKING [27/9/23, 6:25:09 am] Oli: FROM HIS GHOUS [27/9/23, 6:25:10 am] Oli: HOUSE [27/9/23, 6:25:13 am] Oli: AND GAVE HIM [27/9/23, 6:25:16 am] Oli: ABOUT [27/9/23, 6:25:17 am] Oli: £700 [27/9/23, 6:25:20 am] Oli: whcih de lisle spent [27/9/23, 6:25:21 am] Oli: on met [27/9/23, 6:25:22 am] Oli: meth [27/9/23, 6:25:27 am] Oli: and then lived on the streets [27/9/23, 6:25:33 am] Oli: how kind nicholas ‎[27/9/23, 6:25:38 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 6:25:47 am] Sam: What I said there really, can’t say any more [27/9/23, 6:26:06 am] Sam: It’s a profanation how everyone rushes in to pose as a saint when someone kills himself [27/9/23, 6:26:18 am] Oli: It is appalling [27/9/23, 6:26:36 am] Oli: i feel [27/9/23, 6:26:45 am] Oli: I don't know [27/9/23, 6:26:47 am] Oli: but it's awful ‎[27/9/23, 6:27:59 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 6:28:07 am] Oli: I remember giving him a shower [27/9/23, 6:28:09 am] Oli: yes [27/9/23, 6:28:21 am] Oli: Cleansing him of the smell he had from the streets [27/9/23, 6:28:23 am] Oli: God bless him ‎[27/9/23, 6:29:22 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 6:29:33 am] Oli: And there I was thinking I was being funn [27/9/23, 6:29:38 am] Oli: Haha swap Harrow for de Lisle [27/9/23, 6:29:42 am] Oli: how funny I am ‎[27/9/23, 6:30:50 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 6:31:21 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 6:31:48 am] Oli: I am haunted by his death [27/9/23, 6:31:53 am] Oli: My god [27/9/23, 6:32:05 am] Sam: Fuck [27/9/23, 6:32:06 am] Sam: No [27/9/23, 6:32:14 am] Sam: I can incompletely understand [27/9/23, 6:32:28 am] Sam: I thought it was going to happen to Roman and I played it out in my head a million times [27/9/23, 6:32:50 am] Sam: It’s heartbreaking [27/9/23, 6:32:59 am] Oli: I feel very guilty. [27/9/23, 6:33:04 am] Oli: But that is life as I always say. [27/9/23, 6:33:16 am] Sam: And it’s … we’re just expected to numb ourselves to this stuff and be all businesslike and appropriately sorry once a year or something ‎[27/9/23, 6:33:26 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 6:33:33 am] Oli: And now he's fucking dead [27/9/23, 6:33:34 am] Oli: My god [27/9/23, 6:33:54 am] Oli: Disgraceful [27/9/23, 6:34:15 am] Sam: God this is … let me gather myself [27/9/23, 6:35:00 am] Oli: Well yes welcome to the world [27/9/23, 6:35:02 am] Oli: It's awful! [27/9/23, 6:35:07 am] Oli: Truly awful! [27/9/23, 6:35:35 am] Oli: I can't live with myself [27/9/23, 6:35:37 am] Oli: But that is life [27/9/23, 6:35:41 am] Oli: It's fucking horrendous [27/9/23, 6:35:48 am] Oli: And now the poor bugger is a dead nothing [27/9/23, 6:35:52 am] Oli: A corpse [27/9/23, 6:35:53 am] Oli: Bye bye [27/9/23, 6:35:55 am] Oli: Fuck me [27/9/23, 6:35:57 am] Oli: What madness [27/9/23, 6:36:26 am] Oli: Absolutely horrendous [27/9/23, 6:36:28 am] Oli: Yes [27/9/23, 6:36:33 am] Oli: He was such a clever man [27/9/23, 6:36:38 am] Oli: Somewhere along the line he went royally wrong [27/9/23, 6:36:39 am] Oli: Jesus [27/9/23, 6:36:49 am] Oli: But the world is such that it's conducive for anyone to go wrong [27/9/23, 6:38:25 am] Sam: I think that “he’s a Harrovian” comment says a lot [27/9/23, 6:39:26 am] Oli: What a fucking cun [27/9/23, 6:39:27 am] Oli: cunt [27/9/23, 6:39:32 am] Oli: My only thoughts re Prof Nicholas [27/9/23, 6:39:45 am] Oli: Not even a proper fucking Prof. Never held a chair at Oxbridge] [27/9/23, 6:40:02 am] Oli: He himself is a compelx man but fuck that's an awdful comment [27/9/23, 6:40:12 am] Oli: ;Oh yes he;s an Harrovian so I'll fund his drug addiction' [27/9/23, 6:40:21 am] Oli: Here's £600 Mr de Lisle [27/9/23, 6:40:27 am] Oli: You can go back to your family stately [27/9/23, 6:40:32 am] Oli: Well no he fucking can't [27/9/23, 6:40:44 am] Oli: They put him into a rented house in Loughborough [27/9/23, 6:40:52 am] Oli: so what he did was spend it on Tina and coke [27/9/23, 6:40:55 am] Oli: and sleep on the streets [27/9/23, 6:40:59 am] Oli: How kind\ [27/9/23, 6:41:28 am] Sam: I read about fucking River Phoenix on Wikipedia a while back (I think because we almost shared a birthday - long story how I go down these rabbit holes) [27/9/23, 6:41:36 am] Sam: And this: ‎[27/9/23, 6:41:40 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 6:42:03 am] Oli: GOD YES [27/9/23, 6:42:05 am] Oli: He was a troubled person [27/9/23, 6:42:08 am] Oli: Fuck that's sad also [27/9/23, 6:42:22 am] Sam: Not to focus on vegetarianism in particular, but, like … actually caring about people, caring about things other than grabbing stuff like some deranged sterile Ubu and shovelling the contents of the universe into our maw [27/9/23, 6:42:44 am] Oli: All that remains of mr de Lisle was on display today [27/9/23, 6:42:47 am] Oli: 26th Septemnber [27/9/23, 6:42:52 am] Oli: His rotting corpse in a coffin [27/9/23, 6:42:53 am] Oli: How nice [27/9/23, 6:43:00 am] Oli: What a fucking joke [27/9/23, 6:43:08 am] Oli: Well these people AND MANY MORE failed by the system [27/9/23, 6:43:53 am] Oli: It's appalling [27/9/23, 6:43:59 am] Oli: I vividly remember him [27/9/23, 6:46:31 am] Oli: Truly harrowin [27/9/23, 6:46:35 am] Oli: harrowing [27/9/23, 6:48:57 am] Oli: AFTER THIS [27/9/23, 6:49:04 am] Oli: he came into my room and tried to have sex with me [27/9/23, 6:49:19 am] Oli: and I had a nice chat with him for 5 hours [27/9/23, 6:49:23 am] Oli: I can't forget it [27/9/23, 6:49:26 am] Oli: Christ what a cruel world [27/9/23, 6:49:48 am] Oli: It's absolutely devastating [27/9/23, 6:49:59 am] Oli: I cannot wake up without thinking about it [27/9/23, 6:50:06 am] Sam: Feel like I spend my life saying this and no one listens [27/9/23, 6:50:07 am] Oli: Probably because it's so recent [27/9/23, 6:50:12 am] Sam: Shit [27/9/23, 6:50:21 am] Sam: I'm really sorry [27/9/23, 6:50:38 am] Oli: Well there's much worse [27/9/23, 6:50:40 am] Oli: God bless his soul [27/9/23, 6:50:52 am] Sam: This is .. fuck, I don't know what to say, on a big level I can try to communicate it but on a personal level i'm utterly useless with consolation etc [27/9/23, 6:50:58 am] Sam: Imma have some more meth I think [27/9/23, 6:51:31 am] Sam: Young people should not be saying this stuff [27/9/23, 6:51:41 am] Sam: Something is deeply fucked [27/9/23, 6:51:55 am] Sam: It matters not how fast we go [27/9/23, 6:52:01 am] Sam: How much we cost each other and the gods [27/9/23, 6:52:05 am] Sam: Etc [27/9/23, 6:52:14 am] Sam: That is really it: how much we cost each other [27/9/23, 6:52:45 am] Oli: omg [27/9/23, 6:52:49 am] Oli: i've just found [27/9/23, 6:52:50 am] Oli: the worst [27/9/23, 6:52:51 am] Sam: His misery was good, much better than if he'd spent his life painting or meditating, because he paid some doctors probably and some psychiatrists etc etc [27/9/23, 6:53:13 am] Sam: GDP goes up, sum total of human misery creeps up another inch [27/9/23, 6:53:19 am] Sam: Oh what? [27/9/23, 6:53:25 am] Oli: fuck [27/9/23, 6:54:05 am] Sam: I like you a lot, and a hell of a lot more than with the Himmler stuff ‎[27/9/23, 6:54:06 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [27/9/23, 6:54:07 am] Sam: goddammit [27/9/23, 6:54:11 am] Sam: i sympathise [27/9/23, 6:54:14 am] Sam: not very well but i do ‎[27/9/23, 6:54:26 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [27/9/23, 6:54:56 am] Oli: 'Make sure you don't lose it' [27/9/23, 6:55:00 am] Oli: (re the money) [27/9/23, 6:55:05 am] Oli: What a naiive thing to say [27/9/23, 6:55:11 am] Oli: Will go straight into dealers' pockets [27/9/23, 6:55:14 am] Oli: This is horrific [27/9/23, 6:55:22 am] Sam: What the fuck's he going to do? [27/9/23, 6:55:28 am] Sam: jesus this is exactly like alex camm's guy [27/9/23, 6:55:44 am] Sam: which funnily enough was my last message to ryan (who is not dead! to be clear!) ‎[27/9/23, 6:55:56 am] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[27/9/23, 6:56:04 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 6:56:41 am] Oli: This is horrific [27/9/23, 6:56:43 am] Oli: The man is now dead [27/9/23, 6:56:49 am] Oli: You can even hear the fucker in the background [27/9/23, 6:56:53 am] Oli: This is just monstrous [27/9/23, 6:56:56 am] Oli: Appalling! ‎[27/9/23, 6:57:34 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 6:57:34 am] Oli: WHAT [27/9/23, 6:57:39 am] Oli: My god [27/9/23, 6:57:45 am] Sam: Groundhog Day [27/9/23, 6:58:00 am] Sam: 🤷 😶🫡 [27/9/23, 6:58:51 am] Sam: I give up, I don’t know [27/9/23, 6:59:47 am] Oli: The answer is the world is horrible [27/9/23, 6:59:52 am] Oli: What do we do? Who knows? [27/9/23, 6:59:54 am] Oli: But it's awful [27/9/23, 7:00:13 am] Oli: Wonder what he thought about this [27/9/23, 7:00:27 am] Sam: I am so angry and have been for so long and I spend my time talking to people who have more time and leisure and luxury than most people in the world or history and who do utterly fuck all and prance around talking about fucking Ascot and … god knows [27/9/23, 7:00:41 am] Oli: Lol and also I'm not exactly a Himmler fanatic far from it [27/9/23, 7:01:03 am] Oli: I get this. ‎[27/9/23, 7:01:12 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 7:01:20 am] Oli: BUT... maybe they are people who can't be converted? [27/9/23, 7:01:36 am] Sam: Oh no I realise that, I just mean the anencephaly of it, haha [27/9/23, 7:02:40 am] Oli: Mr (or Lord) Fred needs help [27/9/23, 7:02:53 am] Oli: Deeply conflicte [27/9/23, 7:02:54 am] Oli: d [27/9/23, 7:03:06 am] Oli: Idk if he will be another de Lisle [27/9/23, 7:03:09 am] Oli: but shi [27/9/23, 7:03:10 am] Oli: shit [27/9/23, 7:03:16 am] Oli: de Lisle 38 when he died [27/9/23, 7:03:24 am] Oli: when he was Fred's age he I think had same hang ups [27/9/23, 7:03:26 am] Oli: re being gay [27/9/23, 7:03:27 am] Oli: etc. ‎[27/9/23, 7:03:51 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 7:05:27 am] Sam: Why does Fred care? He’s not the one they use for studding - he can afford surely to be gay [27/9/23, 7:06:02 am] Sam: Sorry, last two messages put the schizoid nature of my thoughts into sharp relief [27/9/23, 7:06:30 am] Sam: People suffer and deserve help, and people are callous and don’t help [27/9/23, 7:06:49 am] Sam: Fred suffers, Fred, uh, whatever the fuck else he might do [27/9/23, 7:07:08 am] Sam: God I’m going to pause quickly to gather my brain because I’m no use anyway eh [27/9/23, 7:07:13 am] Sam: Rn* [27/9/23, 7:07:16 am] Sam: Not eh [27/9/23, 7:08:14 am] Oli: Lol no don't worry [27/9/23, 7:08:24 am] Oli: I am just downstairs wondering what the fuck is going on with the world [27/9/23, 7:08:28 am] Oli: It's very sobering [27/9/23, 7:08:35 am] Sam: Thought he was Saint-Loup [27/9/23, 7:08:46 am] Sam: Turns out he’s a different human being who’s not a Proust character [27/9/23, 7:09:29 am] Oli: Maybe he wanted to ape Proust [27/9/23, 7:09:30 am] Oli: Hmm [27/9/23, 7:09:31 am] Oli: Could be [27/9/23, 7:10:21 am] Sam: I still want to find the Chuck Bowden quote I mentioned earlier [27/9/23, 7:10:44 am] Sam: But did I mention his piece on heroin overdoses in rich Texas suburbia? It says a lot about this, I feel, somehow [27/9/23, 7:11:13 am] Oli: Don't think so! [27/9/23, 7:11:40 am] Sam: https://classic.esquire.com/article/1998/3/1/bad-luck-on-an-otherwise-fine-night [27/9/23, 7:12:13 am] Sam: Title is brutally stark but somehow quite beautiful or … I can’t put my finger on it [27/9/23, 7:12:47 am] Sam: This is just so disorienting - we were all promised as kids that we were coming into a world that was ordered and fair and made sense and that we’d slot into our place and …. I feel cheated [27/9/23, 7:13:28 am] Oli: Good point [27/9/23, 7:14:05 am] Oli: When one compares the world we were supposedly introduced to with the world we know now… ‎[27/9/23, 7:14:10 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 7:14:10 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 7:14:11 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/9/23, 7:14:11 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 7:14:23 am] Oli: It is painful to say the least [27/9/23, 7:14:33 am] Sam: That last sentence hits home [27/9/23, 7:15:00 am] Sam: I would hope for his parents that it might lead to some …. thing [27/9/23, 7:15:39 am] Sam: Gimme a few mins [27/9/23, 7:16:59 am] Oli: Quite [27/9/23, 7:17:05 am] Sam: I am … I don’t even know where to start but I am … this is a lot to process, all of it, I think it’s just struck me slightly, and I’ve had quite a lot to process besides, and my head has gone a bit heavy [27/9/23, 7:17:10 am] Oli: It relates to a lot of things [27/9/23, 7:17:22 am] Oli: It’s OK xx 🙏🙏🙏 [27/9/23, 7:17:30 am] Sam: Xox [27/9/23, 7:17:33 am] Sam: Platonic xox [27/9/23, 7:17:43 am] Sam: I want to understand what on earth is going on lol [27/9/23, 7:17:58 am] Oli: Well it is horrendous and I feel the same [27/9/23, 7:17:59 am] Sam: Not that it’s not romantic but … I don’t know quite what’s up with your boyfriend et al [27/9/23, 7:18:07 am] Oli: To my mind this is why I don drugs [27/9/23, 7:18:13 am] Sam: But sorry, I’m not … I’m trying to sign off, I’m not trying to change the subject [27/9/23, 7:18:20 am] Sam: Need to stop pathologically qualifying myself! [27/9/23, 7:18:21 am] Oli: Do* [27/9/23, 7:18:42 am] Sam: One sec on this [27/9/23, 7:19:01 am] Oli: He is just too close to me lol in terms of immediate family so I come off as distant [27/9/23, 7:19:28 am] Oli: I don’t want to but I have a very different way of processing things [27/9/23, 7:19:36 am] Oli: And most don’t get it [27/9/23, 7:19:45 am] Oli: Ok [27/9/23, 7:20:15 am] Oli: I do the same [27/9/23, 7:24:15 am] Sam: How do you mean? Re the boyfriend or re Rupert? [27/9/23, 7:24:51 am] Sam: Oddly I just remembered I felt the same way about Fred’s girlfriend, perhaps more than him [27/9/23, 7:26:22 am] Sam: There’s something … well, to kill a mockingbird, I suppose, to break a butterfly, ya know, there’s something wrong about harming someone who seems so pure [27/9/23, 7:26:44 am] Sam: Did you ever read the K Bros? [27/9/23, 7:27:15 am] Oli: Both. [27/9/23, 7:27:16 am] Oli: Haha [27/9/23, 7:27:24 am] Oli: It’s a cruel universe [27/9/23, 7:27:48 am] Oli: She seems very pure [27/9/23, 7:27:57 am] Oli: Never [27/9/23, 7:28:03 am] Oli: Perhaps I should ‎[27/9/23, 7:31:02 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 7:31:37 am] Sam: Bit with Ivan and Alyosha chilling and shooting the breeze a bit before the famous grand inquisitor parable [27/9/23, 7:31:52 am] Sam: Channels all my feelings [27/9/23, 7:33:11 am] Sam: Dostoevsky is probably top of my list of authors by observance/insightfulness (Robert Tressell, Proust tho about stupid shit, Lawrence, few besides) [27/9/23, 7:33:57 am] Oli: I knew you liked Proust [27/9/23, 7:34:06 am] Oli: Dostoevsky is a good one too [27/9/23, 7:34:15 am] Oli: Very interesting mind indeed [27/9/23, 7:35:10 am] Oli: ‘Euclidean nonsense’ love this [27/9/23, 7:36:03 am] Oli: I am happy I could let you know a bit more about me [27/9/23, 7:36:22 am] Oli: So few bother to care about that lol [27/9/23, 7:36:38 am] Oli: And that I could learn a bit more about you xx [27/9/23, 7:36:41 am] Oli: 🤣 [27/9/23, 7:36:47 am] Oli: 🙏* rather [27/9/23, 7:37:03 am] Oli: Must’ve pressed emoji above, nonetheless funny [27/9/23, 7:49:19 am] Sam: I do - Gide was right, he was a ridiculous queen and a social climber, but he understood bloody well the vanity and the emptiness of that world (And to an extent he had to enter into that world in the first volume - well, and through the first few - in order to exit it. But I think that episode of the Duchesse de Guermantes, whatever her name is, Oriane, going to change her shoes rather than spend a few moments with her dying friend, well… there’s a danger in believing books are real life and judging people by stuff like this, but in my experience … it is. I dunno. To someone like Fred nothing is real. There’s only so much I can tolerate of banging on about how much one cares and then not even offering a room for Ryan (I didn’t ask explicitly but I was discussing it with him without thinking, yet he still managed to say no, impressively). And after a while you think: you know, I’m sick of this, why shouldn’t I hold this person to at least the same standards to which I’d hold anyone else?) [27/9/23, 7:51:16 am] Sam: I’m glad too 🩵 And please don’t read anything I said as being uninterested, I’m just so torn because there’s so much going on in this situation… But no, Louis isn’t the main thing, I realise I need to move, if not on, then at least along… (But I realise it’s a bit like that Joyce story, The Dead. Actually I made that comparison to his boyfriend, haha.) ‎[27/9/23, 7:51:59 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 7:52:45 am] Sam: Also, please don’t kill yourself [27/9/23, 7:53:19 am] Sam: https://youtu.be/FwO1BoG7CVQ?si=jjrV5bJyGQfBoReY [27/9/23, 8:37:49 am] Sam: I’m just rereading your messages (as I always do because I’m terrible at doing so at the time) and … shit I’m really glad you did open up. I like you a hell of a lot. I’m upset that you thought I didn’t like you. I think you’re sweet and kind and clever and pretty and I like you. I also like your boyfriend and think he looks very sweet and kind and you’re lucky to have him. Timmy I think is bad news. But hey, as the old joke goes which old Lebedev told me and which I’m sure I’ve told you: no Pravda in Izvestia, no Izvestia in Pravda. There’s no truth in news; there’s no news in truth. [27/9/23, 12:01:53 pm] Sam: Also what do you mean about this? What’s up? What does he need protecting from? [27/9/23, 2:58:25 pm] Oli: Thank you. I maybe got the wrong end of the stick in wondering what you thought of other people, I.e. me, but I always play around with thoughts! [27/9/23, 2:59:10 pm] Oli: And yes Timmy is usually bad news. LOL. Maybe he does it on purpose like Dennis the Menace. [27/9/23, 2:59:17 pm] Oli: Did you sleep today?! [27/9/23, 2:59:24 pm] Oli: I have been asleep most of the day so far! [27/9/23, 2:59:36 pm] Oli: Maybe you worked? That would be impressive! [27/9/23, 3:01:57 pm] Oli: This is a very kind message! [27/9/23, 4:02:17 pm] Sam: Oh, I worked! Don’t tell your friends! [27/9/23, 4:03:07 pm] Sam: Haha, do you remember Horrid Henry from when you were a kid? Mikey went out with this guy Josh whose mum wrote that book (or those books, or whatever exactly it was, I can’t recall). He was indeed horrid! Lazy writing tbqh! [27/9/23, 4:05:13 pm] Sam: Sorry, just meant that because of Dennis the Menace. (Maybe I do have a slight bias for people like Freddie purely in the sense that I’m partial to a good story. Of course in the end he didn’t have any.) [27/9/23, 4:08:46 pm] Sam: But yeah this Timmy kid, I do like his WhatsApp description, but there’s something I find a bit dull after a while in that “haha everything is just a joke” weltanshtick. It’s a pretty shit joke if so. [27/9/23, 4:09:07 pm] Sam: This sums up my take on all that [27/9/23, 4:10:55 pm] Sam: It bespeaks a kind of nihilism and detachment that is probably not a good omen even for more mundane social decency and compassion etc. [27/9/23, 4:14:10 pm] Sam: (And my problem with this nihilism shit isn’t that I disagree, it’s that … well, what in god’s name were they expecting? What, because there aren’t moral waves that we can detect with a radio scanner, therefore it’s simply not possible to disapprove of people who are shitty to others??) [27/9/23, 4:20:11 pm] Sam: No, I think I somehow radiate that contempt or arrogance or whatever, but it’s not intentional! I think maybe I’m prone to ‘splitting’, as they call it with narcissists. More mildly and less lastingly than eg Damien, or my old flatmate Creepy Chris who had ‘solid state grudges’ so to speak, stored with that person’s name and face in his mind, not evaporating away as with most people. (In Chris’s and Damien’s defence, they were both capable of real kindness, really going above and beyond for people they cared about, which is maybe one of the few virtues of narcissism?) [27/9/23, 4:22:26 pm] Sam: As indeed Proust says about Saint-Loup (the radiator bit), in this passage, if you recall: http://theesotericcuriosa.blogspot.com/2011/01/marcel-prousts-dandy-extraordinaire.html [27/9/23, 4:36:51 pm] Sam: Lol at ‘an Cambridge graduate’. Yeah mate you’re taking it a bit too far… [27/9/23, 4:37:47 pm] Sam: ‘An Cambridge graduate and an Marlborough pupil’ [27/9/23, 5:22:14 pm] Sam: Christ I think this guy is actually at least 80% serious: https://x.com/paulrbelgium/status/1707037533446524988?s=46 [27/9/23, 5:46:20 pm] Sam: Also wait, what, I just read this - you’re living in Edinburgh properly, full time? Also how the fuck old is Xander? He’s presumably at least not 18, right, if he’s not living in halls? [27/9/23, 6:01:48 pm] Oli: Ah sorry I must get to these all. I was just walking. I am not really full time living here but I’m here for a lot this autumn/winter. I am in London or other bits of England sometimes every fortnight. Xander is 22. His parents bought him a house to live in here, which works out the best economically in the long run. I am not yet sure if they’ll sell it when he stops studying. But first year was halls. [27/9/23, 6:02:27 pm] Oli: lol the an is a bit much yes! I’ve just registered that 🤣 [27/9/23, 6:21:14 pm] Sam: Is he there as a postgrad? Or tail end of undergrad + gay pear? Also what sort of money do his parents have?? I've heard of such things (my old chum James (whose crazy dad I often mention) 's parents got him a house in Cambridge while he's there for his PhD) but that's quite wild. [27/9/23, 6:24:07 pm] Sam: Actually, shit, my parents offered to do the same. I'd totally forgotten. It fell apart thanks to Kieran. (That was the first of two times that I'd have got a free or £🫑🌽.00 house from my family (the second time in fucking Knightsbridge) and Kieran fucked it up. Good god.) [27/9/23, 6:24:42 pm] Sam: This makes us sound wildly rich but we're not - I'll explain but am steering away from tangent for now [27/9/23, 6:39:15 pm] Sam: Anyway. Please trust me. It pains me to say this about any handsome rich Etonian, but Xander is a good egg. It's plain from his messages. It's also plain he cares a lot about you. Don't screw that up just to go for Timmy, or me for that matter, out of some perpetual restlessness / dissatisfaction whatever thing. Someone like that is hard to find. Please don't do what I did. [27/9/23, 6:42:08 pm] Sam: What Zizek says here is important, imo: https://youtu.be/U88jj6PSD7w?si=QFiDGZi-vZ3AF7pb&t=52 [27/9/23, 7:19:14 pm] Oli: Oh thank you. This is nice. [27/9/23, 7:19:31 pm] Oli: Just going to some art exhibition now then supper but shall chat properly after [27/9/23, 7:20:06 pm] Oli: Will also watch this soon [27/9/23, 7:21:58 pm] Sam: Cool beans! And sorry, this is not at all me not being interested. I honestly find it too complex a situation to even half consider. In isolation I would be interested. But …. ok my brain is so gone [27/9/23, 7:22:09 pm] Sam: This is good, this gives me time to drink some water, haha [27/9/23, 7:23:41 pm] Sam: Also, enjoy your time with this sweet human being who cares about you 😵‍💫 Don’t end up like me! [27/9/23, 8:26:15 pm] Sam: Goddammit, gap year* [27/9/23, 9:10:41 pm] Oli: Now at supper 🤣 [27/9/23, 9:11:03 pm] Sam: [Sam is writing a long clarifying series of questions] [27/9/23, 9:11:16 pm] Sam: [abnormal service will resume presently] [27/9/23, 9:33:56 pm] Sam: Wait also I don’t quite get this. - You get £9k/mo from your grandfather, post-tax, yours to do with as you will, iiuc? - Assuming you would actually like to have your own flat and be able to live between London and Edinburgh, why not rent a flat in London? - Even a pied à terre on the London end, and train or plane tickets to Edinburgh? - Is the problem with coke the coke or the money? - Put it this way, if there existed a cheaper source of coke, would you want to know? (Don’t worry, I am not a coke dealer.) - Why do you feel like a concubine? - Is Freddie right in Annex I? - Is it a financial arrangement he’s talking about? (I.e. has money changed hands? I assume not but maybe.) - You yourself say that Xander gives you money - why? I don’t quite get how you have beautiful rich young boys throwing money at you. (I can just about sympathise understand the ‘beautiful’ and ‘young’ because somehow I have the same myself, but for him to pay you is quite wild. I can’t imagine he’d need to pay for sex. I pretty much know that, given he’s quite similar to Roman as a sexual prospect, and Eton alone meant Roman was drowning in naïve twinks from the provinces.) ‎[27/9/23, 9:36:16 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/9/23, 9:38:32 pm] Oli: Haha good qs shall address them soon [27/9/23, 9:38:33 pm] Oli: Just out [27/9/23, 9:38:36 pm] Sam: Sorry, I’m not interrogating you like a slape, and I don’t have any foregone hypothesis that I’m driving at. I genuinely don’t know. But I get the sense that there’s been some stuff you feel debarred from talking about! [27/9/23, 9:38:51 pm] Oli: And it’s not 9k a month to me but essentially he lets me spend on his card and doesn’t really limit it so I sort of have that at my disposal [27/9/23, 9:38:54 pm] Oli: Similar to Damien lol [27/9/23, 9:39:18 pm] Sam: It’s also quite money focussed I realise - not immediately sure why those were the questions I had, but oh well! [27/9/23, 9:40:07 pm] Oli: And xander doesn’t habitually give money he just lets me use his card for things too like grandpa [27/9/23, 9:40:36 pm] Oli: But not excessively and not often. Not sure why I phrased 🤣 [27/9/23, 9:40:38 pm] Sam: Yeah that makes sense - but still, if that’s what you are in fact spending, and if even half of that is a safe assumption, and if part of the reason for your misery is your being in Edinburgh, and if that’s also something that might (ironically) drive you emotionally apart from this (to all appearances) sweet gem of a human being whom you’ve found, then it’s a definite looming obvious act of self-sabotage [27/9/23, 9:41:05 pm] Oli: Oh well I do quite like Edinburgh no misery there! [27/9/23, 9:41:11 pm] Oli: I shall process this haha just ont’ food [27/9/23, 9:42:05 pm] Sam: Yeah no rush! If you want to leave it till tomorrow that’s fine! Or whenever really! Please please please be with your boyfriend! I’m rooting for you two 🥲 [27/9/23, 9:42:19 pm] Oli: Haha this is very nice also. [27/9/23, 9:42:35 pm] Oli: I will probably message later on as it also helps me clear my head! [27/9/23, 9:43:38 pm] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [27/9/23, 9:43:53 pm] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [27/9/23, 9:44:11 pm] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [27/9/23, 9:45:34 pm] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [27/9/23, 9:46:15 pm] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [27/9/23, 10:30:04 pm] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [27/9/23, 11:59:45 pm] Sam: Oh, further questions: - I'm not sure I buy the idea that you hang out with these people solely because they are around. - Are homeless people not around? Is Ascot or Henley or Sussex 'around'? Is Ryan? - Why does sexual abuse make one want to hang around specifically with aristocrats? - In what way is altruism 'hyperbole'? - Are all these people really cousins? - If so, is it to any significant degree of closeness? - Is that how you met them (through family)? - (I admit this one isn't new. I have a long message I sent to Damien in frustration a while ago, which I'm very happy to send to you, but you should consider if you really want to read it. Nothing utterly hateful but maybe slightly angry and mocking at points.) I'm not trying to embarrass you, but some of these things are part of what maybe gets in the way, because I feel uncomfortable suborning economy with the actualité, or at least possibly doing so. I also suspect the answers to certain of these questions is what leads to this sense of frustration in you and Freddie. You can't answer "why don't you do [useful thing] instead of [snob thing]?" because the probable correct answer is offensive both to conventional decency and still more to snob morality itself. So it creates a weird dynamic where you end up confessing to your 'shortcomings' or 'failings', and then getting ever more frustrated in this paradoxical attitude of "oh come on you know I don't mean it". Or that's my sense at least, my suspicion. I could be entirely wrong! [28/9/23, 12:05:43 am] Sam: Please do feel free to ask me stuff. There are a few things I'm pretty sure you're sceptical about (happy to list – not being shifty, only concise). And you'd have very good reason to level the same charge at me, and maybe it's something I need to reflect on, because certainly the results speak for themselves and are somewhat similar. Anyway, I'm not getting at you, I just want to be able to talk without barriers. [28/9/23, 12:45:57 am] Sam: In a very real sense, the thing that's coming between us is that I _do_ like you. I can see you're a good human being, very probably a great one. You could do so much. Instead you squander it and spend half your life talking complete gibberish to some dullard troglodytes with titles whom you think are better than you (and me and Ryan and nearly anyone who's achieved anything, except few dozen 1sts and Bertrand Russell). It upsets me. You are so much more than this dross. [28/9/23, 12:47:04 am] Sam: Goddammit, _who_ you think. There's my second-rate education showing 😉 [28/9/23, 2:16:50 am] Sam: To be clear, I’m not including Xander in that, who is clearly a sweet and lovely and thoughtful human being. Sorry to repeat myself but it just makes my heart hurt. Many people go their whole lives without finding someone who adores them like that boy very clearly adores you. How you could consider throwing that away for someone who’s less attractive and a duller and worse person is utterly beyond me. You’re mad. Treasure him. [28/9/23, 2:20:43 am] Oli: Just finished talking [28/9/23, 2:20:44 am] Oli: Hello [28/9/23, 2:20:48 am] Oli: Lol all deleted messages haha [28/9/23, 2:21:01 am] Oli: Just free now LOL [28/9/23, 2:25:23 am] Oli: Now to read and attend haha [28/9/23, 2:26:12 am] Oli: Lol ok omg send the message you sent to Damien haha [28/9/23, 2:26:14 am] Oli: For context [28/9/23, 2:26:16 am] Oli: Just processing this [28/9/23, 2:26:49 am] Sam: Ah, well, I won’t send more for now, haha. Sorry about the Xander thing. I know I’ve gone on about it way too much. I’m very envious, to be honest. I know I don’t normally admit to - or feel - that sort of thing, but god you are so lucky. [28/9/23, 2:26:55 am] Oli: I like this [28/9/23, 2:27:02 am] Sam: For the error bred in the bone [28/9/23, 2:27:10 am] Sam: Of each woman and each man [28/9/23, 2:27:14 am] Sam: Craves what it cannot have [28/9/23, 2:27:17 am] Sam: Not universal love [28/9/23, 2:27:21 am] Sam: But to be loved alone [28/9/23, 2:27:28 am] Sam: Anyway lemme send [28/9/23, 2:30:16 am] Sam: Are you sure? It’s actually a bit more unpleasant than my description there suggests, on rereading both the text and the description [28/9/23, 2:30:29 am] Sam: But here ya go, don’t read unless sure [28/9/23, 2:30:39 am] Oli: Don’t worry ‎[28/9/23, 2:30:41 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[28/9/23, 2:30:42 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/9/23, 2:30:43 am] Oli: Given what you’ve clarified [28/9/23, 2:30:46 am] Oli: I can understand that [28/9/23, 2:30:53 am] Oli: And sometimes moods create that [28/9/23, 2:31:07 am] Oli: Lol am laughing already [28/9/23, 2:31:10 am] Oli: Haha don’t worry [28/9/23, 2:31:13 am] Sam: It does explain my problems and I think (I haven’t read closely) it’s more or less what I think now [28/9/23, 2:31:20 am] Oli: They actually are cousins oddly enough [28/9/23, 2:31:22 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [28/9/23, 2:31:30 am] Oli: That is funny [28/9/23, 2:31:40 am] Sam: Well, not as in ‘the contents of my mind / what I’m focussing on’ but as in ‘I haven’t actually changed my mind and would come to the same conclusions if I considered it’ ‎ [28/9/23, 2:31:43 am] Oli: Glomming onto [28/9/23, 2:31:46 am] Oli: Haha that is good [28/9/23, 2:31:53 am] Sam: Wait I’ll leave you to it [28/9/23, 2:31:56 am] Sam: Sorry!!! [28/9/23, 2:32:00 am] Sam: But transparency etc! [28/9/23, 2:32:04 am] Oli: Lol makes sense I suppose if you have those thoughts about something they’re provoked by something [28/9/23, 2:32:05 am] Oli: Hahahaa [28/9/23, 2:32:58 am] Oli: Haha fair point re the prep school [28/9/23, 2:33:08 am] Oli: I must’ve been in a pissed mood when I said to Damien lol [28/9/23, 2:33:55 am] Sam: I don’t want to read your replies yet because I think fast paced conversations about this kinda thing are bad, but: that last sentence in my last message there is unbelievably smug and I cringe to read it [28/9/23, 2:34:51 am] Oli: I must process it properly but don’t worry no grudges [28/9/23, 2:35:18 am] Oli: Was this all after our row lol? [28/9/23, 2:35:21 am] Oli: Row in quote marks [28/9/23, 2:35:27 am] Oli: In Sans Culottes chat? [28/9/23, 2:36:29 am] Oli: Haha funnny I thought some of this [28/9/23, 2:36:43 am] Oli: That is just a good summary of English life in C21 for some [28/9/23, 2:39:17 am] Oli: Haha hell hath no fury [28/9/23, 2:39:22 am] Oli: A man on a mission re those messages [28/9/23, 2:39:24 am] Oli: Good idea [28/9/23, 2:40:27 am] Sam: God sorry I’ll resd your replies in one minute I promise. I really hate conflict. Makes me tense up and I can’t concentrate on anything else. Aargh. In truth I’m not sure I can really defend those texts. The tone is not kind. I’m not withdrawing moooost of the points but the presentation is ugly and I don’t feel good about it. Sorry. [28/9/23, 2:40:51 am] Oli: Haha I suppose things provoke comments like that. [28/9/23, 2:40:58 am] Oli: So one can’t blame you [28/9/23, 2:41:03 am] Oli: It is very good to be transparent [28/9/23, 2:43:29 am] Sam: It’s good to be transparent but I don’t think it necessarily makes what I said any less bad. I’m sorry. Well, I’m sorry to you, but mainly I’m sorry to myself. I don’t like reading through that again. [28/9/23, 2:43:57 am] Sam: However, _broadly_ it of course conveys my take [28/9/23, 2:43:59 am] Oli: Damien must be all things to all men though lol [28/9/23, 2:44:02 am] Oli: Like St Paul [28/9/23, 2:44:03 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [28/9/23, 2:44:05 am] Oli: Very amusing [28/9/23, 2:44:09 am] Oli: Haha don’t worry [28/9/23, 2:44:16 am] Oli: It is good to see what others sometimes can think of one [28/9/23, 2:44:21 am] Oli: I think good for the mind [28/9/23, 2:44:25 am] Oli: If one willing to accept it [28/9/23, 2:44:28 am] Oli: Or consider it [28/9/23, 2:45:39 am] Sam: Yeah absolutely, but no I don’t think you’re required to be any kinder or more balanced about it than I was to you (there, I mean). [28/9/23, 2:45:42 am] Oli: Just sorting self out then shall hopefully write proper replies! [28/9/23, 2:46:14 am] Sam: But I hope it at least gives you some trust in the integrity of the endless screenshots I send, and points in general [28/9/23, 2:47:47 am] Sam: I’m utterly in favour of total transparency except in those limited cases where … well, eg I probably wouldn’t share with, say, Damien my whole chat with you, in view of some of the things you’ve said (not about Damien but yourself / confidential stuff). But aside from that sorta thing I think sunlight is the best disinfectant. [28/9/23, 2:49:21 am] Sam: Incidentally you may want to delete some things from this chat (eg the sexual abuse stuff) because I can’t honestly entirely promise that I’ll never stupidly decide to show somebody else. I hope not but looking at my track record… and also in case I mindlessly _do_ end up doing something like sending the whole chat to Damien as above. [28/9/23, 2:49:39 am] Oli: Well I suppose I don’t really mind about it [28/9/23, 2:49:47 am] Sam: Yes this was just before I moved out I think. Lemme grab dates! [28/9/23, 2:49:50 am] Oli: I am quite developed and it is probably good for some to have context lol ‎[28/9/23, 2:51:32 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[28/9/23, 2:54:18 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/9/23, 2:54:30 am] Sam: Haven’t checked but let us hope that was after that argument, haha ‎[28/9/23, 2:56:28 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/9/23, 2:57:07 am] Sam: God I’ve never learned to draw an ampersand properly. My ampersands are functionally retarded. 🫣 [28/9/23, 2:59:20 am] Sam: Incidentally, the stuff I said above is equally true. I wouldn’t bother if I didn’t like you a lot and if I didn’t think you had huge potential. (Well, back to the Stephen Fry video. Who the hell am I to hand down the official judgement on people’s merits and demerits? But since you’re asking, I’ll give my own take, for what little I expect it should be worth.) ‎[28/9/23, 3:01:55 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/9/23, 3:03:05 am] Sam: Sorry, as in: it’s not nice to be under attack, to know that someone is (or was) trying to hurt you (or something kinda loosely like that), even if the insults themselves (like Damien’s) fall flat [28/9/23, 3:03:52 am] Sam: Ok maybe the analogy is a bit of a stretch given I wasn’t trying to insult you (maybe I was coming somewhat close) and it wasn’t addressed to you or written with any intention or expectation that you’d read it (…as is probably clear…) [28/9/23, 3:04:10 am] Sam: Anyway I’ll leave you to reply, sorry. Again, why you would listen to me I don’t know! [28/9/23, 3:26:19 am] Oli: Sorry just washing face etc [28/9/23, 3:50:22 am] Sam: Oh yeah no rush! [28/9/23, 3:57:52 am] Sam: Sorry. Again I’m saying this because I think you could do so much with your time on earth - very probably more than I will - and it depresses me to see you misspend your considerable promise. [28/9/23, 3:59:11 am] Sam: I also recognise that my point about sexual abuse is unconscionable if wrong, and arguably not terribly conscionable even if right. But it is the contents of my mind, so, whether conscionable or not, I think it’s best to be open. [28/9/23, 4:00:44 am] Sam: Anyway I’m not trying to have a go at you, I’m not going to repeat any of this, and if you want to delete these messages or move to Telegram (as Alex Camm wisely always does for similar chats…) then I’m very happy to, and I think it’s not necessarily unwise. [28/9/23, 4:10:37 am] Oli: Haha don’t worry am just processing to give the reply it deserves [28/9/23, 4:12:47 am] Sam: Ah thanks! I’m not entitled to any kind of reply, tho, don’t worry. And please don’t feel like this is a list of implicit demands that you have to accede to. I’ve probably got some stuff wrong, and who knows, maybe I’ve got everything wrong! [28/9/23, 4:22:08 am] Oli: Thank you for being honest firstly xx [28/9/23, 4:22:28 am] Sam: Ah I was gonna talk about lesbians and popcorn but I’ll yield the floor! [28/9/23, 4:23:01 am] Oli: Am just procrastinating doing nighttime skin haha. But also trying to gather thoughts as you said lots of interesting thought provoking stuff ‎[28/9/23, 4:24:20 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [28/9/23, 4:25:39 am] Sam: Sorry, I’m being stupid - not quite sure if you’re sending fast paced replies and so didn’t want to start conversing back. Dammit I am now. I’ll wait for you to finish unless otherwise requested/permitted! [28/9/23, 4:29:09 am] Oli: Don’t worry feel free to fire ahead May inspire me [28/9/23, 4:29:17 am] Oli: Am not offended or hesitant at all just thinking [28/9/23, 4:34:51 am] Sam: ❤️ I am a big fan of yours and I don’t want to be an asshole. I feel like I have been an asshole and possibly remain such. When I wrote that above message I was feeling a bit underwater with all the different façades, not least Slape, and maybe I somewhat lazily repurposed the same thing I said to Damien (“blah blah bleak future blah depreciating this or that etc”). I’m not sure that’s exactly right. I also don’t want to knock your friends. I like Xander, I like Phillip, I even sorta like Nandos even if you don’t like him any more (or possibly even then), etc, and I’m sure there must be others. Who knows? [28/9/23, 4:35:53 am] Oli: ❤️❤️ [28/9/23, 4:36:29 am] Sam: To adapt that bloody Whitman line that my dad always used to quote: ~I~ we a ~m~ re large, ~I~ we contain multitudes [28/9/23, 4:39:30 am] Sam: I’m really glad you and Xander are around tho. I’m not saying this in some ‘trying to send a coded message about anything to do with you and me now or in the future’ sorta way. I just find it sweet as hell to see. Almost instinct almost true 👌 [28/9/23, 4:39:50 am] Sam: Anyway I’ll leave ya t’ it f’r now (or whatever) [28/9/23, 11:48:34 pm] Sam: https://www.icloud.com/notes/0927sX65HDByWNLBhLM3L-yFw ❤️ [29/9/23, 3:43:57 am] Sam: Hey, Oli, please let me know you’re ok. I like you. I’ve loved talking to you the last couple of nights. But clearly something’s the matter, something is distressing you – and you’re not obliged to tell me, but if you want to talk about it then I need to know what the hell is going on [29/9/23, 3:44:21 am] Oli: No I am fine I am just trying to find the time to properly respond! [29/9/23, 3:44:47 am] Oli: Haha this evening was amusing dedicated to collecting coke. 🤣🤣 hence brain not that active [29/9/23, 3:44:54 am] Oli: Maybe I will start with some of the easier points! [29/9/23, 3:45:06 am] Oli: Thank you for your concern xx [29/9/23, 3:45:37 am] Sam: Oh cool, that’s a relief, good, cool, sorry, I was a bit worried given the Rupert stuff! [29/9/23, 3:45:55 am] Oli: Oh goodness yes! [29/9/23, 3:46:02 am] Oli: Terrible to think about that. [29/9/23, 3:46:15 am] Oli: I had somehow cleared my immediate consciousness. [29/9/23, 3:46:18 am] Oli: Thankfully [29/9/23, 3:48:29 am] Sam: Had? You mean before that conversation? Or before now? Or something else?? [29/9/23, 3:58:22 am] Sam: Sorry, I’m just thinking out loud, or out typed, or whatever. Don’t mean to block the radio waves. (To stop you from typing/messaging, I mean.) ‎ [29/9/23, 4:10:47 am] Sam: I have, and have had, a weird sense that _something_ was afoot. (Alex Camm can confirm, because I discussed it with him at Bond St.) For the longest time I had a niggling suspicion that Freddie wasn’t real. I still do, tbqh. Now all this stuff with being a concubine, and being worried about coke use, and … something _is_ the matter but it’s not what you’re telling me, I’m damn near certain of that. Please please please Oli tell me what’s going on 🙏🏻 🙏🏻 [29/9/23, 4:11:03 am] Oli: Oh I think before now: after the conversation. [29/9/23, 4:11:45 am] Oli: Hmm. I wonder about this. [29/9/23, 4:11:48 am] Sam: (God is it weird I get a quasi-erotic frisson from calling someone by name? I never ever ever do it, barely even in romantic or sexual contexts. Maybe this is highly unusual!) [29/9/23, 4:11:58 am] Oli: I think I have explained the matter but not properly Put it out there [29/9/23, 4:12:06 am] Oli: I must do better at explaining it [29/9/23, 4:12:24 am] Oli: And your questions were right to get it explained. Hence why I must properly answer them! [29/9/23, 4:12:29 am] Sam: Also possible I’ve missed some messages even with my partial rereading (this conversation has sadly been too long to entirely reread!) [29/9/23, 4:12:31 am] Oli: And I’ve been in silly brain mood today. [29/9/23, 4:12:36 am] Oli: That’s all it is I think 🤣 [29/9/23, 4:12:51 am] Sam: Also also possible that meth psychosis, haha [29/9/23, 4:13:11 am] Oli: Calling someone by name? [29/9/23, 4:13:17 am] Oli: Oh I see. [29/9/23, 4:13:21 am] Sam: And an ingrained habit of distrusting people [29/9/23, 4:13:22 am] Oli: That happens. [29/9/23, 4:13:23 am] Sam: Oli [29/9/23, 4:13:27 am] Oli: I very seldom use names as well. [29/9/23, 4:13:35 am] Sam: 😵‍💫 [29/9/23, 4:13:47 am] Oli: Alex Camm rang me today by the way! I missed his call! [29/9/23, 4:13:49 am] Sam: Probably just me haha [29/9/23, 4:14:36 am] Sam: Oh cool! Yeah I gather you have your own chat - I didn’t quite realise, but good! I mean, you seem to like him, and he hasn’t explicitly discussed like or dislike of you but he certainly seems to quite strongly defend you! [29/9/23, 4:14:51 am] Oli: I think there are many matters. I think they’ve been pushed into the medium stage of consciousness, so they must be abreacted Freudian style! [29/9/23, 4:15:32 am] Oli: I do not know about Freddie not being real [29/9/23, 4:15:37 am] Oli: He seems a human to me! [29/9/23, 4:15:45 am] Oli: But maybe he is a fake person? [29/9/23, 4:15:53 am] Oli: If that’s what you mean? Many people are. [29/9/23, 4:16:11 am] Oli: Well not our own ‘chat’ [29/9/23, 4:16:15 am] Oli: He seems to ring sometimes [29/9/23, 4:16:35 am] Oli: I hope I give off a different image! [29/9/23, 4:16:49 am] Sam: My suspicion was that he was you, haha. Never more than a theory I registered as paranoid, but still one I never quite _dismissed_. Maybe largely driven by his weird reluctance to meet! [29/9/23, 4:16:50 am] Oli: I must clarify your questions to solidify this. [29/9/23, 4:17:11 am] Sam: Oh yeah ask away! [29/9/23, 4:17:21 am] Oli: Is he reluctant to meat? LOL [29/9/23, 4:17:26 am] Oli: To cock? Or meat? [29/9/23, 4:17:29 am] Sam: I shall clarify or possibly obscurify, haha [29/9/23, 4:17:32 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 4:17:38 am] Sam: To meet! [29/9/23, 4:17:46 am] Oli: Oh. [29/9/23, 4:17:49 am] Oli: LOL [29/9/23, 4:17:57 am] Oli: That’s funny [29/9/23, 4:18:26 am] Oli: Good idea. I would find it very amusing. [29/9/23, 4:18:53 am] Oli: Sorry, read: give clear answers. [29/9/23, 4:19:29 am] Oli: The problem is I must sit at my laptop and write it all up! [29/9/23, 4:19:41 am] Oli: Perhaps I can answer some of the easier ones on phone. [29/9/23, 4:19:47 am] Oli: I do not like the keyboard [29/9/23, 4:19:47 am] Sam: I don’t think it was ever my _main_ theory - well, as you know, we talk of ourselves as if we’re rational agents, but really eventually one just slips back into assuming that any given person is telling the truth, because that’s how the world hums along. But yeah, from that first message to Alex Camm that I sent you I’ve not been entirely sure about him (not purely suspecting that one possibility but just generally sensing something odd). [29/9/23, 4:20:27 am] Oli: Haha we spoke about meat the other day so I presumed he had displayed vegetarian leanings. [29/9/23, 4:21:23 am] Sam: Voice message maybe? Like Goodge St the walls feel thin here and I don’t want to disturb the neighbours. If you can send them as destructible or whatever it’s called, feel free. Even a call I could surreptitiously record anyway, so hopefully the semantics of voice messages aren’t too different! [29/9/23, 4:21:28 am] Oli: Well I don’t quite get what is up. Repressed pouf. It [29/9/23, 4:22:05 am] Oli: Ah you are at Goodge St! [29/9/23, 4:22:20 am] Oli: Oh no ‘like G S’ OK [29/9/23, 4:22:45 am] Oli: Yes I like voice notes but perhaps they are harder to listen to if they go on and on. [29/9/23, 4:23:49 am] Oli: Does confuse me because sometimes I suspect you prefer written word! [29/9/23, 4:24:00 am] Oli: I can’t quite work out which is better but both seem to have a context [29/9/23, 4:24:57 am] Sam: Me or Freddie? Haha, I mean, it’s also that he had no social media and could seemingly keep up with my hours while professing not to take drugs. I also had a weird feeling that the Slape thing started around exactly when I stopped talking to Freddie - though I don’t know what my theory would be there. Collusion with Slape seems rather implausible, haha. And also against that theory I counted the fact that he had to me a fairly different ‘voice’ (but that’s within the realm of plausibility) and that, well, it seemed a bit of a pointless thing to do, haha. [29/9/23, 4:25:39 am] Oli: Him [29/9/23, 4:26:09 am] Sam: Over calls or over voice messages? I definitely prefer written word over calls in most contexts, and voice messages probably in between because (1) I can replay them at my leisure (hopefully? unless too destructible?) and (2) I don’t have to talk back, which is useful at 3am in a quiet house and street. [29/9/23, 4:26:11 am] Oli: This is brilliant. [29/9/23, 4:27:01 am] Sam: Like I say, a slightly paranoid theory, but maybe just a reflection of the sense that _something_ more than meets the eye is going on in some way [29/9/23, 4:27:01 am] Oli: Over voice messages, yes! [29/9/23, 4:27:18 am] Sam: My good old basolateral amygdala hasn’t failed me in the past [29/9/23, 4:27:45 am] Sam: (Though I probably wouldn’t be here if it had, so I guess perhaps that’s a bit like saying Russian roulette hasn’t failed me in the past, haha) [29/9/23, 4:28:05 am] Sam: Pareidolia or whatevs [29/9/23, 4:28:26 am] Oli: Haha it is like one of those dolls! [29/9/23, 4:28:29 am] Sam: My hierarchy: - texts - voice messages - pigeons - calls [29/9/23, 4:28:37 am] Sam: - video calls [29/9/23, 4:28:41 am] Oli: Must read about this! [29/9/23, 4:28:53 am] Oli: Yes I like them sometimes took [29/9/23, 4:28:56 am] Oli: Too [29/9/23, 4:29:10 am] Oli: Pigeons [29/9/23, 4:30:38 am] Sam: You know, the feeling that something doesn’t add up, and your something or other cortex hasn’t fired yet but it’s tripped a messy unexplained primal circuit in your brain (the sort of thing that evolution hasn’t dared to meddle with because no one knows how it works but it does) and you know you need to get out of there. Something like that! [29/9/23, 4:30:40 am] Oli: I am a night owl even when not on drugs funnily, and my cousins (more!) in Norway are too. I think there are more people like that than we’d think. [29/9/23, 4:31:00 am] Oli: Slight thing about the cousins… most people only know their first cousins and don’t really do ‘extended families’. [29/9/23, 4:31:13 am] Oli: Hence it appears odd and unusual to those people. [29/9/23, 4:31:31 am] Sam: This is more or less true-ish of me. I maybe go to second. [29/9/23, 4:31:34 am] Oli: But even you and I are cousins at some point (though that’s into the level of ridiculous). [29/9/23, 4:32:02 am] Oli: Yes. I had that with Slape. [29/9/23, 4:32:13 am] Sam: I know! 👆 lol [29/9/23, 4:33:04 am] Sam: Oh with Slape it was more in the way that 2 + 2 = 5 doesn’t add up [29/9/23, 4:33:14 am] Sam: Or just 2 = 5 ‎[29/9/23, 4:34:12 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 4:34:43 am] Oli: Oh… [29/9/23, 4:34:52 am] Oli: Tara. That is ironic. [29/9/23, 4:35:01 am] Sam: Yeah I realised that a few days later, haha [29/9/23, 4:35:35 am] Oli: A very good idea! [29/9/23, 4:35:47 am] Oli: I knew a tranny Tara. [29/9/23, 4:36:00 am] Oli: A man whose tranny persona was named Tara. [29/9/23, 4:36:05 am] Sam: Odd it didn’t flag up immediately. My theory was that it was because I’ve known her so long (well, since childhood) that it skipped whatever part of my brain would recognise and register and have such thoughts about her name. [29/9/23, 4:36:16 am] Oli: Tara Browne the male singer [29/9/23, 4:36:24 am] Oli: Funny it can be both genders oddly. [29/9/23, 4:36:24 am] Sam: Oh, well, Raz’s trans girlfriend was called Nara, if you recall [29/9/23, 4:36:30 am] Sam: Great character she was [29/9/23, 4:36:40 am] Sam: Also a meth user [29/9/23, 4:36:43 am] Sam: And prostitute [29/9/23, 4:36:52 am] Sam: Oh wait no maybe she wasn’t a prostitute [29/9/23, 4:37:06 am] Sam: No but she lived in Soho and had lots of money and was a bit sleazy [29/9/23, 4:37:28 am] Sam: She had houses in Thailand that she rented out (she was Thai) and Raz once asked her what happened if the tenants stopped paying, since she was here [29/9/23, 4:37:38 am] Sam: And she said “oh, I have a couple of men, with bats…” [29/9/23, 4:37:43 am] Sam: 👏 [29/9/23, 4:38:16 am] Sam: Maybe more for the Irish? or one of those countries at any rate [29/9/23, 4:38:25 am] Oli: Pretty useful. [29/9/23, 4:38:29 am] Sam: I feel like it’s Irish but maybe it’s Welsh or something [29/9/23, 4:38:32 am] Sam: As a male name I mean [29/9/23, 4:38:47 am] Sam: So wait ok what is gwan [29/9/23, 4:38:50 am] Oli: That could be because it’s not here [29/9/23, 4:39:02 am] Sam: Let me just try to remember what the main question is [29/9/23, 4:39:08 am] Oli: I must ask my mind too. [29/9/23, 4:39:14 am] Sam: Cousins was a stupid question, doesn’t really matter [29/9/23, 4:39:18 am] Oli: Well, you presented many very thoughtful questions! [29/9/23, 4:39:20 am] Sam: Gimme a month to reread [29/9/23, 4:39:24 am] Sam: A mo* dammit [29/9/23, 4:39:44 am] Oli: I think they will all build up an answer to the narrative you have created. [29/9/23, 4:39:58 am] Oli: From that perspective I should answer them properly and try and think about it! [29/9/23, 4:40:15 am] Oli: This will be good for conversation. [29/9/23, 4:40:24 am] Sam: Nah I don’t think …. I … wait let me compose my thoughts [29/9/23, 4:40:32 am] Sam: I’m sorry, this is shitty of me, for one [29/9/23, 4:40:48 am] Sam: You’re not obliged to answer my every prying question [29/9/23, 4:41:05 am] Oli: I would like to! [29/9/23, 4:41:08 am] Sam: And even if this or that isn’t the whole truth, I think everyone is entitled to his own self-presentation [29/9/23, 4:41:08 am] Oli: Or try! [29/9/23, 4:41:24 am] Sam: It’s the inner palisade of dignity and individuality [29/9/23, 4:41:28 am] Oli: It is what every human does. [29/9/23, 4:41:41 am] Sam: Yup, agreed [29/9/23, 4:41:51 am] Sam: As hopefully my note conveys [29/9/23, 4:42:00 am] Sam: I’m sure there’s much more I forgot to say [29/9/23, 4:42:17 am] Sam: Well, I guess starting at the end is maybe helpful for me [29/9/23, 4:42:27 am] Sam: Like, fundamentally I just want to understand what is going on in your life [29/9/23, 4:42:52 am] Sam: Firstly so I know how to even make sense of the romantic side of things, and secondly because you seem distressed by something or other [29/9/23, 4:42:55 am] Oli: I don’t think many people understand what’s going on in their lives. [29/9/23, 4:43:03 am] Sam: I mean obviously Rupert’s death but not just that [29/9/23, 4:43:03 am] Oli: I’d like to as well. [29/9/23, 4:44:00 am] Sam: And I don’t understand the stuff about concubines etc, and I don’t _quite_ understand the dreamy caring gorgeous sweet rich etc boyfriend but that may just speak very well of you [29/9/23, 4:44:28 am] Sam: Every man is furthest from himself! (As I said yesterday or the day before, haha. But Nietzsche was v right.) [29/9/23, 4:44:54 am] Sam: And god knows I’m neglecting urgent and towering concerns in my life [29/9/23, 4:45:15 am] Oli: Lol I think I just get myself into stupid situations. I probably project to many self problems onto them and conceive of it like that after on. [29/9/23, 4:45:28 am] Oli: Too [29/9/23, 4:45:44 am] Oli: Thereon* [29/9/23, 4:46:12 am] Sam: Still, I mean, if there’s any way to explain… [29/9/23, 4:46:22 am] Sam: Funnily, thinking of projecting and concubines.. [29/9/23, 4:46:39 am] Oli: Yes there will be an attempt I hope! [29/9/23, 4:47:01 am] Sam: I for some reason always used to get myself through bad sex by imagining I was a prostitute, that I was doing it for money. I don’t know why that faintly turned me on. Maybe it’s just my lust for mammon 🤷 [29/9/23, 4:47:12 am] Oli: I don’t know off the top of my head, but these things would require a bit of thought. [29/9/23, 4:47:26 am] Sam: I’m just trying to leak all the embarrassing stuff, haha [29/9/23, 4:48:14 am] Oli: I wonder if that is embarrassing. [29/9/23, 4:48:28 am] Oli: It sounds a very clever way of coping! [29/9/23, 4:49:26 am] Sam: Well, it wasn’t literally that I tricked myself into getting excited about getting money. I wouldn’t have been able to get myself through gardening or cleaning with the same technique. It’s clearly that I have some weird micro-sorta-fetish for that! [29/9/23, 4:50:19 am] Sam: I have no macro or common fetishes (that I know of!) at least, but yeah there seems to occasionally be the odd concept that’s somehow hot [29/9/23, 4:50:31 am] Sam: Anyway sorry im still somehow talking about myself [29/9/23, 4:50:42 am] Sam: Guess I’m trying to maybe intersperse and relieve treason [29/9/23, 4:50:45 am] Sam: Tension [29/9/23, 4:51:06 am] Sam: T’as la floore [29/9/23, 4:51:37 am] Oli: Sorry I just thought someone was trying to break in. [29/9/23, 4:51:55 am] Sam: Holy shit I thought that about 20 minutes ago myself [29/9/23, 4:51:55 am] Oli: It seemed to be a milkman or some such making noise. [29/9/23, 4:51:58 am] Oli: Some sort of workman. [29/9/23, 4:51:58 am] Sam: Creeped me the fuck out [29/9/23, 4:52:02 am] Oli: YES [29/9/23, 4:52:06 am] Oli: I was terrified [29/9/23, 4:52:08 am] Sam: Didn’t want to say because I thought meth psychosis [29/9/23, 4:52:14 am] Sam: Now you’re freaking me out again [29/9/23, 4:52:26 am] Oli: No it is nice. [29/9/23, 4:52:43 am] Sam: In my paranoid mind I was running through hypotheses and who would want and be able to put out a hit on me or whatever [29/9/23, 4:52:51 am] Oli: Due to the coincidence? [29/9/23, 4:52:55 am] Sam: I try to make it a habit to keep those two groups as separate as possible [29/9/23, 4:53:01 am] Oli: I hired a hitman on you! [29/9/23, 4:53:03 am] Sam: (Want and be able, that is) [29/9/23, 4:53:13 am] Sam: Haha no I wasn’t considering that [29/9/23, 4:53:17 am] Oli: Phew! [29/9/23, 4:53:32 am] Sam: I did briefly touch on Freddie in my mind but then I remembered he doesn’t exist !!! [29/9/23, 4:53:35 am] Sam: Haha [29/9/23, 4:53:35 am] Oli: Fuck [29/9/23, 4:53:37 am] Oli: Lol [29/9/23, 4:53:44 am] Sam: I once read a paper actually n [29/9/23, 4:53:52 am] Oli: Sorry I am just thinking about this all. [29/9/23, 4:54:02 am] Oli: Very odd. [29/9/23, 4:54:09 am] Oli: This is a bit weird. [29/9/23, 4:54:17 am] Oli: LOL [29/9/23, 4:54:21 am] Sam: That said that a large proportion of people who believed Osama bin Laden was still alive (post-2014 or whenever it was) also believed that he’d been killed earlier and the raid was staged [29/9/23, 4:54:27 am] Sam: I always found that interesting [29/9/23, 4:54:45 am] Oli: Well I actually think Damien might’ve hired a hit on you? [29/9/23, 4:54:46 am] Oli: 🤣 [29/9/23, 4:55:05 am] Sam: I mean, of course we can hold non-obviously contradictory thoughts in our mind (or else no one would still be doing maths) but those seemed quite a bit too obvious to me ‎ [29/9/23, 4:55:10 am] Oli: Similar theories about Elizabeth II [29/9/23, 4:55:17 am] Oli: Or Elizabeth dying earlier [29/9/23, 4:55:29 am] Sam: But that the same people believed both of these statements/propositions [29/9/23, 4:55:47 am] Sam: (Well, that the two groups substantially overlapped) [29/9/23, 4:55:55 am] Sam: Wild [29/9/23, 4:56:12 am] Sam: God though I’m a bit creeped out [29/9/23, 4:56:20 am] Sam: This is why I sympathise with Martin [29/9/23, 4:56:27 am] Sam: I can’t imagine how fucking terrifying it must have been [29/9/23, 4:56:44 am] Sam: I got the distinct sense that there was a lot more going on his head than he told us [29/9/23, 4:56:52 am] Sam: Please tell me something to take my mind off it [29/9/23, 4:57:06 am] Oli: By what? By us both thinking someone was breaking in?! [29/9/23, 4:57:07 am] Sam: 🥺 [29/9/23, 4:57:16 am] Oli: It felt creepy at the time [29/9/23, 4:57:28 am] Sam: Yup - well, by my thinking it in the first place [29/9/23, 4:57:46 am] Sam: God I had hugely vivid auditory hallucinations last year [29/9/23, 4:57:50 am] Oli: I know little to nothing about psychosis or meth psychosis [29/9/23, 4:58:24 am] Oli: I don’t think I’ve ever had those! [29/9/23, 4:58:26 am] Sam: Kieran will recall my texting him for about three hours because I thought he was very loudly having sex in his room and it turns out he wasn’t at all (or so he says but honestly I don’t really distrust him for once) [29/9/23, 4:58:43 am] Sam: And I had the most vivid, wild hallucinations after moving into Goodge st [29/9/23, 4:58:54 am] Sam: That my family had somehow become aware of my paedophilia [29/9/23, 4:59:22 am] Sam: (It’s usually drug use, apparently, with these paranoid ‘so and so has discovered’ sorts of hallucinations, but psychosis needed to adapt to my very strange north London + Asperger’s norms) ‎ [29/9/23, 5:00:10 am] Sam: But yeah I could hear vivid, vivid voices, and I can never usually remember what people’s voices sound like - I can’t play them back in my head, so to speak, and I’m a godawful mimic - but these were exactly the same [29/9/23, 5:00:15 am] Sam: Eerily so [29/9/23, 5:00:26 am] Oli: The north London concept is probably quite good. [29/9/23, 5:01:07 am] Sam: And it left me with the vibe that it was a cognitive thing, that it was less that my auditory cortex (or whatev) was replaying the sound, and more that my cerebral cortex (or whatev) was being tricked into thinking that the sound had been replayed [29/9/23, 5:02:06 am] Oli: LOL [29/9/23, 5:02:11 am] Sam: You mean my theory that it was different because my/locally-prevailing social norms were different? If so, yeah, I think that’s a near certainty [29/9/23, 5:02:16 am] Oli: Messed up [29/9/23, 5:02:26 am] Oli: That’s severe! [29/9/23, 5:02:44 am] Sam: Or realistically thalamus or periaqueductal grey or whatever, but that was a nicer parallel [29/9/23, 5:02:57 am] Sam: Yeah it’s wild! [29/9/23, 5:03:01 am] Sam: And the scariest bit is [29/9/23, 5:03:05 am] Oli: I do wonder what’s going on with life at the moment. [29/9/23, 5:03:09 am] Sam: Did they stop? Or did they get much better? [29/9/23, 5:03:23 am] Sam: Eughtfhhghh ok I’m freaking myself out now [29/9/23, 5:03:24 am] Oli: Everyone I meet seems to have some form of neurosis. [29/9/23, 5:03:32 am] Oli: Maybe they always did! [29/9/23, 5:03:46 am] Sam: Realistically, in a Moorean fact sorta spirit, I’m almost sure it’s the former [29/9/23, 5:03:46 am] Oli: It’s very healthy! [29/9/23, 5:03:48 am] Oli: 🤣 [29/9/23, 5:04:00 am] Oli: G.e moore [29/9/23, 5:04:03 am] Sam: And also because there’s not really much fucking point in believing it’s the latter even if it is [29/9/23, 5:04:11 am] Sam: Yup [29/9/23, 5:04:17 am] Sam: Here is a hand, etc [29/9/23, 5:04:24 am] Oli: Oh yes! [29/9/23, 5:04:41 am] Oli: I had gladly forgotten that. [29/9/23, 5:04:45 am] Oli: I made sense of it at the time. [29/9/23, 5:05:07 am] Sam: It doesn’t reaaaaally make much sense to me, except on an emotional/temperamental level ‎[29/9/23, 5:05:20 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 5:05:26 am] Oli: I should read more philosophy again! [29/9/23, 5:05:41 am] Oli: Sans the again! [29/9/23, 5:05:52 am] Oli: Oh yes! [29/9/23, 5:06:06 am] Sam: I think there’s an argument there but it’s sorta hidden, and the actual way that that states it is not really … well, put it this way, if you fed that into some logical computer, it would say ‘no, maybe here is not a hand’, but to a human it makes a kind of sense [29/9/23, 5:06:17 am] Sam: Or alternatively we’re just shitty computers I guess [29/9/23, 5:06:30 am] Oli: That too [29/9/23, 5:06:36 am] Sam: Haha, reading philosophy again is a good practice! [29/9/23, 5:06:45 am] Sam: I should read more philosophy again more again [29/9/23, 5:07:01 am] Sam: Ok [29/9/23, 5:07:05 am] Sam: Oli [29/9/23, 5:07:14 am] Sam: Gosh why is my brain so fucked [29/9/23, 5:07:31 am] Sam: Why do I get a weird sexual thrill from fucking saying someone’s name [29/9/23, 5:07:38 am] Sam: Possibly more than I get from sex [29/9/23, 5:07:47 am] Sam: Haha I’ll succeed in putting you off me before long [29/9/23, 5:08:06 am] Oli: I am still convinced that we must stop drugs! Easier conceived than put into action. [29/9/23, 5:08:08 am] Sam: No, this is an enormously arrogant thing to say but: I seem never to be able to succeed at this [29/9/23, 5:08:14 am] Sam: Shit shit shit [29/9/23, 5:08:15 am] Sam: Sorry [29/9/23, 5:08:18 am] Sam: Not you in particular [29/9/23, 5:08:19 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 5:08:23 am] Sam: But with people in general [29/9/23, 5:08:45 am] Sam: And I’m not trying to put you off me [29/9/23, 5:08:46 am] Oli: It makes sense. [29/9/23, 5:08:53 am] Sam: I don’t even know tbh [29/9/23, 5:09:02 am] Oli: Oli LOL [29/9/23, 5:09:06 am] Oli: Doesn’t sound thrilling [29/9/23, 5:09:07 am] Sam: This is part of the reason (part 1 iirc) for getting clear [29/9/23, 5:09:15 am] Sam: Did you see that film? [29/9/23, 5:09:22 am] Oli: Oli? [29/9/23, 5:09:26 am] Sam: Call me by your name [29/9/23, 5:09:34 am] Oli: Oh [29/9/23, 5:09:35 am] Sam: Or call me by my name [29/9/23, 5:09:37 am] Oli: No! [29/9/23, 5:09:40 am] Oli: I was supposed to! [29/9/23, 5:09:43 am] Sam: As I called it to the cinema woman when I saw it [29/9/23, 5:09:58 am] Sam: For some reason that was apparently hysterically funny to both her and Louis [29/9/23, 5:10:07 am] Sam: Yes did you not get the memo from gay HQ [29/9/23, 5:10:26 am] Oli: I saw another gay film. Moonlight? [29/9/23, 5:10:41 am] Sam: Oh funnily enough I remember my aunt recommending that [29/9/23, 5:10:51 am] Oli: I should check! 🤣 [29/9/23, 5:10:52 am] Sam: Something about two boys in Yorkshire or the English countryside somewhere? [29/9/23, 5:11:00 am] Oli: Oh that’s different. [29/9/23, 5:11:01 am] Sam: Or maybe it was the States somewhere, I forget [29/9/23, 5:11:12 am] Sam: Ok that’s a bit hopelessly broad lol [29/9/23, 5:11:13 am] Oli: I didn’t see that either but grandpa saw it for some reason. [29/9/23, 5:11:23 am] Sam: Ahhh ok soz [29/9/23, 5:11:31 am] Sam: Nah I can’t ever see call me by your name again [29/9/23, 5:11:35 am] Oli: Moonlight is an American film about blicks if I recall. [29/9/23, 5:11:36 am] Sam: Fucking brutal in the first place [29/9/23, 5:11:46 am] Sam: Also first date, memories, etc etc [29/9/23, 5:12:32 am] Sam: Song from the ending is very haunting and beautiful and sadly also one of the very few songs I just can’t bear to listen to now [29/9/23, 5:12:37 am] Sam: https://spotify.link/BWgawbLLtDb [29/9/23, 5:12:45 am] Oli: Ending [29/9/23, 5:12:47 am] Sam: God, haha [29/9/23, 5:12:51 am] Oli: I will look! [29/9/23, 5:13:15 am] Oli: The film was the first date? [29/9/23, 5:13:28 am] Oli: Lol I am laughing [29/9/23, 5:13:37 am] Sam: I’d be mildly interested to know if you agree, because I wonder if maybe it’s just because of the associations (at least with the context of the film, if not also my intense and almost religious longing nostalgia and pain etc for that day) [29/9/23, 5:13:47 am] Sam: Yups [29/9/23, 5:13:48 am] Oli: Moonlight was actually a crap film, but it won some big award. [29/9/23, 5:13:58 am] Sam: Palme d’Or ? [29/9/23, 5:14:00 am] Oli: Maybe the other two did as well. [29/9/23, 5:14:13 am] Oli: No an Oscar maybe. [29/9/23, 5:14:13 am] Sam: Sunflower or some shit like that? [29/9/23, 5:14:17 am] Sam: Ah ok [29/9/23, 5:14:22 am] Sam: Wait so [29/9/23, 5:14:26 am] Sam: Answers [29/9/23, 5:14:32 am] Sam: J’accuse!!!!!& [29/9/23, 5:14:46 am] Sam: Nah I’m kidding [29/9/23, 5:15:03 am] Oli: Agree with you about the song being beautiful? [29/9/23, 5:15:10 am] Oli: I will find a time to listen! [29/9/23, 5:15:22 am] Sam: I don’t really care, and don’t worry about answering for the ones that are just rhetorical or obviously aggressive etc [29/9/23, 5:15:31 am] Sam: Well, I do care [29/9/23, 5:15:34 am] Oli: Answers to your whole series of questions! I quite agree. I need to type it ups [29/9/23, 5:15:55 am] Sam: I guess basically they are prompts/stabs at what I think is the general direction of whatever you’re stressing about [29/9/23, 5:16:10 am] Oli: Well they should all be answered as I think you must clearly think I’m some sort of nutbag! 🤣 [29/9/23, 5:16:28 am] Oli: And I don’t know if it’s possible to change one’s first impressions. [29/9/23, 5:16:35 am] Sam: And which also seem to be in the same direction as the other thing I want to know, which is what exactly you’re doing and going to do and who you’re seeing and why you’re hitting on Timmy and me and all that [29/9/23, 5:16:40 am] Oli: But I have a hope that they would clarify something? [29/9/23, 5:16:46 am] Sam: No not at all! [29/9/23, 5:17:00 am] Sam: I don’t see all this stuff as important [29/9/23, 5:17:20 am] Sam: Well, maybe the one way in which I see you as nut bag is that I think you consider it important [29/9/23, 5:17:29 am] Sam: Or maybe ‘consider’ sounds too deliberative [29/9/23, 5:17:33 am] Oli: But I glomp onto Etonians! [29/9/23, 5:17:40 am] Oli: You must be the exception? [29/9/23, 5:17:43 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 5:17:49 am] Sam: I get the sense with both you and Freddie that there’s a kind of frustration [29/9/23, 5:17:54 am] Oli: Glom rather [29/9/23, 5:18:02 am] Oli: Never heard that word before. Rather wonderful! [29/9/23, 5:18:17 am] Sam: Arising from sorta having to defend yourself on a pretext that you sorta know is not true and maybe sorta know that I sorta know is not true etc [29/9/23, 5:18:44 am] Oli: This will be good if some ideas can be produced! [29/9/23, 5:18:47 am] Oli: It might be a cure! [29/9/23, 5:18:51 am] Sam: And I think that whether or not the other questions that were sorta implying “I think you’re faking x y z” were on the mark or not [29/9/23, 5:19:30 am] Sam: Very possible like Freddie that you’re not, or mostly not, or god knows, and maybe I’m just assuming one from the other because that’s what I often see (but then you’re obv not like Slape etc) [29/9/23, 5:19:35 am] Oli: Yes I am a known fraud! [29/9/23, 5:19:45 am] Sam: Also yes, for some reason that’s often the case with me [29/9/23, 5:19:48 am] Oli: Haha [29/9/23, 5:19:57 am] Sam: Fuck knows why [29/9/23, 5:20:07 am] Oli: LOL so you actually believe the glomming thing. That is funny too. [29/9/23, 5:20:09 am] Sam: I seem to often assume some sort of honorary posh status [29/9/23, 5:20:25 am] Oli: God what problems arise when we make judgements about others! [29/9/23, 5:20:33 am] Sam: Well, one could say the same about me, I’m aware of that [29/9/23, 5:20:36 am] Oli: I am guilty of it all the time! [29/9/23, 5:20:42 am] Oli: LOL [29/9/23, 5:21:08 am] Sam: To some extent with Etonians specifically, but more true more generally of the demographics of my friends [29/9/23, 5:21:57 am] Oli: I think there are so many reasons as to why people go mad like that. I shall rack my brain. Will be interesting! [29/9/23, 5:22:04 am] Sam: I think it’s probably true that I gave Freddie leeway not necessarily (and I think not actually) because I _admire_ the aristocrat stuff, but because I have a preference for interesting friends, friends with interesting stories [29/9/23, 5:22:22 am] Oli: I’m actually from Grimsby. [29/9/23, 5:22:28 am] Oli: I didn’t think to tell you! [29/9/23, 5:22:52 am] Sam: Well, come on, I think if this were another person and you were looking at them from the outside, you’d be hard put to say that they are utterly blind to class [29/9/23, 5:23:30 am] Sam: It’s possible but it’s approx as likely as tossing a fair coin 300 times and getting all heads [29/9/23, 5:23:31 am] Oli: Not what sorry? Maybe it’s a problem with my brain rather than yoursn [29/9/23, 5:24:23 am] Sam: And something maybe not far off that for me. I’m not implicitly saying anything about myself here! [29/9/23, 5:24:51 am] Sam: Not slaping, not falsely aggrandising yourself in any way [29/9/23, 5:25:06 am] Oli: It may shock you to know that I have buggered people from compo schools! [29/9/23, 5:25:11 am] Oli: I glommed onto ‘em [29/9/23, 5:25:12 am] Sam: I’m saying it’s possible that all of that is true and that you’re still concerned about class [29/9/23, 5:25:18 am] Oli: Haha sorry this just makes me laugh [29/9/23, 5:25:23 am] Oli: I probably have a weird sense of humour. [29/9/23, 5:25:24 am] Sam: (Which is pretty much Freddie’s circs) [29/9/23, 5:25:47 am] Sam: I mean, don’t worry about some of those questions [29/9/23, 5:25:48 am] Sam: Sorry [29/9/23, 5:25:56 am] Sam: This is a bit too much for me to ask of you [29/9/23, 5:25:59 am] Oli: Well I think they should be answered. [29/9/23, 5:26:07 am] Oli: Maybe you will change your view and maybe not! [29/9/23, 5:26:13 am] Oli: But I think they should be answered. [29/9/23, 5:26:30 am] Sam: God sorry I feel weird about this [29/9/23, 5:26:47 am] Oli: I never knew I had this image of being some sort of Walter Mitty ingratiating creep (well, that’s my phrasing but it’s how it comes across). [29/9/23, 5:26:51 am] Oli: No offence taken by the way! [29/9/23, 5:26:52 am] Sam: Give me a few mins and I’ll trim those down a bit [29/9/23, 5:26:57 am] Oli: But it’s just interesting. [29/9/23, 5:27:14 am] Oli: Oh I see. [29/9/23, 5:27:15 am] Sam: Haha well I guess I’m asking the most unflattering questions [29/9/23, 5:27:25 am] Oli: For a reason I suppose. [29/9/23, 5:27:30 am] Oli: So they should be answered! [29/9/23, 5:28:03 am] Sam: Some of them for a reason, but others not, so gimme one more and I’ll get back to you [29/9/23, 5:28:06 am] Sam: One mo* [29/9/23, 5:28:19 am] Sam: Oli [29/9/23, 5:28:26 am] Sam: 😈 [29/9/23, 5:28:33 am] Oli: I shall address them as best as I can! [29/9/23, 5:29:02 am] Oli: At t’ moment I am in a weird state but tomorrow my brain will hopefully be in gear. [29/9/23, 5:29:07 am] Sam: Also this was meant to be the point of my note! [29/9/23, 5:29:21 am] Oli: Very few people call me Oli funnily. [29/9/23, 5:29:22 am] Sam: To share the burden of embarrassment [29/9/23, 5:29:45 am] Oli: I somehow like you using it but it is something which I must learn! 🤣 [29/9/23, 5:30:03 am] Sam: Hahaha god this has reminded me [29/9/23, 5:30:21 am] Sam: Of the schoolboy I dated at Canford (I dimly recall mentioning it) [29/9/23, 5:30:31 am] Sam: Who was called …. something [29/9/23, 5:30:35 am] Sam: William, that was it [29/9/23, 5:30:43 am] Sam: And I just renamed him to Elio (from that film) [29/9/23, 5:30:46 am] Sam: lol [29/9/23, 5:31:03 am] Oli: Dorset! [29/9/23, 5:31:05 am] Oli: I think. [29/9/23, 5:31:15 am] Oli: Near where I am int’ west cuntry [29/9/23, 5:32:18 am] Oli: Yes also I find your mental state very interesting! [29/9/23, 5:32:35 am] Sam: Haha so do I! [29/9/23, 5:32:38 am] Oli: You have different starting premises, as does everyone. [29/9/23, 5:32:50 am] Sam: You’re going into catty mode [29/9/23, 5:32:52 am] Sam: I like it [29/9/23, 5:32:59 am] Sam: I probably shouldn’t be turned on by this [29/9/23, 5:33:01 am] Oli: LOL am I? [29/9/23, 5:33:04 am] Sam: This is not why I asked those questions [29/9/23, 5:33:06 am] Sam: lol [29/9/23, 5:33:13 am] Oli: I don’t want to sound catty. I mean it genuinely. [29/9/23, 5:33:34 am] Sam: Oh I don’t stand by everything I said there, and it was bitter and angry and nasty [29/9/23, 5:33:36 am] Oli: I find this all very interesting. [29/9/23, 5:33:42 am] Sam: I think maybe it’s more upsetting because of the anger [29/9/23, 5:33:51 am] Sam: Well, the hatefulness [29/9/23, 5:33:52 am] Oli: Anger? [29/9/23, 5:33:58 am] Sam: Of my messages [29/9/23, 5:34:12 am] Sam: I hadn’t remembered feeling like that when I wrote them [29/9/23, 5:34:12 am] Oli: Yes the anger was because of that fracas. [29/9/23, 5:34:31 am] Sam: Yeah but it was (based on the dates we/I looked up) a couple of days after [29/9/23, 5:34:46 am] Sam: And Damien and I had just watched The Great Gatsby for some fucking reason [29/9/23, 5:34:58 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 5:35:08 am] Sam: The Baz Luhrmann one with the awful Jay Z music from 2012-2014ish [29/9/23, 5:35:10 am] Oli: Fucking hell. [29/9/23, 5:35:14 am] Oli: Hilarious. [29/9/23, 5:35:22 am] Sam: And I was walking down to the Mayfair Post Office to get some cat food [29/9/23, 5:35:35 am] Sam: And was vaguely following on from the movie [29/9/23, 5:35:53 am] Oli: We like to think that we are all put on this earth to serve some purpose! [29/9/23, 5:35:54 am] Sam: Wait I’ll send you the surrounding texts - no idea if they’ll make it better but they probably won’t make it worse [29/9/23, 5:36:21 am] Oli: Fucking hell. It gets better and better. [29/9/23, 5:36:27 am] Oli: Very good! [29/9/23, 5:36:48 am] Oli: If it is what I suspect then it’s already made me laugh. ‎[29/9/23, 5:36:50 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/9/23, 5:36:51 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 5:37:36 am] Oli: Haha yes so I am the psychologically troubled freak (di Caprio? Or another actor?) character trying to ingratiate! [29/9/23, 5:37:52 am] Oli: I think that’s actually thinking too highly of me in all seriousness. [29/9/23, 5:38:06 am] Oli: Indeed! [29/9/23, 5:38:07 am] Oli: Haha [29/9/23, 5:38:24 am] Sam: Seeing that last self-quote/emphasis makes me slightly more regret that line, partly because it’s the most uncertain tine of my argument, and also because it’s not really necessary or relevant to the rest of it (my point is the same whether you’re ‘legit’ or not, and indeed I think the same of Freddie who, if he exists, is legit) [29/9/23, 5:38:34 am] Oli: Brilliant. [29/9/23, 5:38:54 am] Oli: Lol I do enjoy this. I don’t know why! [29/9/23, 5:39:09 am] Sam: I like the hell out of you for reasons that have nothing to do with this [29/9/23, 5:39:38 am] Oli: 🤣 [29/9/23, 5:39:39 am] Sam: And I like you more when you’re blunt [29/9/23, 5:40:02 am] Sam: I dunno, this all is making my head very muddled [29/9/23, 5:40:10 am] Oli: You’ve never given me the opportunity before! Probably because we seldom properly spoke. [29/9/23, 5:40:32 am] Sam: Probably seldom in this kind of way [29/9/23, 5:40:38 am] Sam: Lots about Slape etc [29/9/23, 5:40:57 am] Oli: That was a big fuckup! [29/9/23, 5:41:05 am] Sam: But no I like you when you’re not composed [29/9/23, 5:41:24 am] Oli: Whatever legit even means! 🤣 [29/9/23, 5:41:25 am] Sam: I mean god knows I’m not composed, I don’t mean that as a jibe and hopefully it’s not a grave one [29/9/23, 5:41:38 am] Oli: Well… I’m in Burke’s Irish Landed Gentry. [29/9/23, 5:41:40 am] Sam: Ah shit you’ve got me there [29/9/23, 5:41:42 am] Oli: But I’m not one of ‘em [29/9/23, 5:41:56 am] Sam: I did make that point to you back in July and I’ve just slightly contradicted myself [29/9/23, 5:41:59 am] Oli: Actually technically very true because they are probably Burke’s ENGLISH Peerage [29/9/23, 5:42:01 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 5:42:18 am] Sam: I mean legit by commonly accepted standards, commonly accepted among people who are….. ah shit [29/9/23, 5:42:22 am] Sam: Dammit [29/9/23, 5:42:25 am] Sam: Lol [29/9/23, 5:42:34 am] Sam: Oh well consistency and philosophy aside [29/9/23, 5:42:34 am] Oli: Page 42 [29/9/23, 5:42:38 am] Oli: T’ family entry [29/9/23, 5:42:48 am] Sam: I sadly do not have a copy! Haha [29/9/23, 5:42:54 am] Sam: Not bedtime reading [29/9/23, 5:42:55 am] Oli: They are very hard to acquire! [29/9/23, 5:42:58 am] Oli: Very expensive as well! [29/9/23, 5:43:36 am] Sam: Yes the silly cresty place was across the road from my school and I’m aware of how much time and energy people invest in this [29/9/23, 5:44:11 am] Oli: I am not sure I’m ever composed! [29/9/23, 5:44:18 am] Sam: And if I have to hear one more thing from anyone about fucking lions argent or fuck knows what then I will jump off the _other_ end of that school lol [29/9/23, 5:44:37 am] Sam: In a manner of speaking! [29/9/23, 5:45:08 am] Oli: Ah yes College of Heralds. All closeted poufs and snobs [29/9/23, 5:45:26 am] Oli: In the proper sense. All mostly sino ironically [29/9/23, 5:45:35 am] Sam: Ah, so, full circle, haha [29/9/23, 5:45:43 am] Sam: Or closeted snobs and poofs [29/9/23, 5:45:55 am] Sam: I mean I don’t know [29/9/23, 5:46:02 am] Oli: HH etc. [29/9/23, 5:46:09 am] Sam: It was a mistake to focus on the accusation of fraud [29/9/23, 5:46:19 am] Oli: I find it very amusing! [29/9/23, 5:46:20 am] Sam: Ie about the actual facts of social class etc, if they can be called that [29/9/23, 5:46:37 am] Oli: ‘FACTS’ is debatable [29/9/23, 5:46:47 am] Sam: And I said that part very obviously out of vindictiveness and resentment - it obviously is pretty orthogonal to my actual point [29/9/23, 5:47:05 am] Sam: Oh I meant that in the sense of ‘whatever the facts are’ [29/9/23, 5:47:36 am] Sam: Even if I did think that (and I don’t think I can honestly say I’m that certain about that part), I wouldn’t drop it in in such a provocative way, haha [29/9/23, 5:47:54 am] Oli: It is clear that I am held in question! [29/9/23, 5:48:06 am] Oli: Everyone should be, so I should be honoured! [29/9/23, 5:48:15 am] Sam: Well, I was being spiteful with that part [29/9/23, 5:48:27 am] Sam: Because I don’t honestly care what the answer to that question was [29/9/23, 5:49:02 am] Sam: I guess I was saying it - insofar as I can unpick the certainly-mostly-unconscious psychologic - because I knew it meant something to you and to Damien ‎[29/9/23, 5:49:03 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 5:49:10 am] Oli: I must be a ‘great’ snob [29/9/23, 5:49:12 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 5:49:32 am] Oli: Actually that’s terrible haha [29/9/23, 5:49:40 am] Oli: Just corroborates all my charges [29/9/23, 5:49:54 am] Sam: And the answer to that question for Freddie is undebatable (please interpret this as universal and not existential quantification) [29/9/23, 5:50:09 am] Sam: And that didn’t really enter into it for me [29/9/23, 5:50:10 am] Oli: Oh yes. [29/9/23, 5:50:18 am] Oli: I am not sure what it means for him. [29/9/23, 5:50:25 am] Sam: So I’m not saying it would actually change my mind at all whether it’s true or false [29/9/23, 5:50:49 am] Sam: (And sadly I can’t read the Burke thing - as in I won’t be able to interpret whatever the fuck it says - and it’s a fool’s errand anyway) [29/9/23, 5:51:03 am] Sam: I was purely saying that part out of spite, presumably [29/9/23, 5:51:21 am] Sam: And/or out of association, because usually the one (care about class) implies the other (lack of) [29/9/23, 5:51:26 am] Sam: But not always (eg Freddie) [29/9/23, 5:51:37 am] Sam: So 🤷‍♀️ [29/9/23, 5:52:10 am] Oli: Probably very watered down! [29/9/23, 5:52:26 am] Sam: I’m being blunt because I have nothing to lose - I know that I can’t realistically do the class stuff any more because I’m going to kill myself before long - but I do like you and I think … well, as I said to Freddie: ‎[29/9/23, 5:53:21 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/9/23, 5:53:22 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 5:53:27 am] Oli: Please don’t kill yourself! [29/9/23, 5:53:35 am] Oli: You said similar to me! 😹 [29/9/23, 5:53:38 am] Sam: Well, not, like, before breakfast, haha [29/9/23, 5:53:56 am] Oli: 🤣 [29/9/23, 5:54:03 am] Sam: Nah I meant ‘before long’ in the conditional sense, not like an egg timer [29/9/23, 5:54:11 am] Oli: Mongs [29/9/23, 5:54:24 am] Sam: ‘If there’s much more of this’, in other words [29/9/23, 5:54:34 am] Sam: Much more of it in my life, from whatever source [29/9/23, 5:55:14 am] Oli: 🎶 [29/9/23, 5:55:32 am] Sam: Nah but seriously [29/9/23, 5:55:57 am] Sam: I understand your less than total satisfaction [29/9/23, 5:56:06 am] Oli: Very easy! [29/9/23, 5:56:49 am] Sam: This is not ideal but … I mean, I want to be able to be blunt, and in my eyes this calls for bluntness, as it did (not to keep making this comparison) with Freddie [29/9/23, 5:57:19 am] Sam: And maybe in your eyes it doesn’t, and then we have to agree to disagree and each hope he’s right [29/9/23, 5:57:20 am] Oli: Everyone should be blunt! [29/9/23, 5:57:39 am] Sam: Not much else to be done [29/9/23, 5:57:47 am] Oli: Oh I don’t mind. [29/9/23, 5:58:08 am] Sam: But, forgetting the fraud point for a moment, I think on the ‘concern’ point there’s not really much of an argument to be had [29/9/23, 5:58:12 am] Sam: For you or for Freddie [29/9/23, 5:58:16 am] Oli: And I wonder what Damien’s take on the situation is. This is rapidly becoming a point of great amusement for me. [29/9/23, 5:58:25 am] Oli: Does he also think I am a nut bag? [29/9/23, 5:58:32 am] Sam: It is functionally implausible that either of you has chosen randomly given the choices made [29/9/23, 5:58:42 am] Sam: Randomly with respect to class, that is ‎ [29/9/23, 5:58:44 am] Oli: Or is he just like a sponge and absorbs what he heard last? [29/9/23, 5:58:49 am] Oli: Haha [29/9/23, 5:59:07 am] Sam: Somewhat! I think! I don’t know with Damien [29/9/23, 5:59:19 am] Sam: Uh, I can look at his reply, sorry, one sec [29/9/23, 5:59:21 am] Oli: Why it’s amusing is because I genuinely don’t relate to it but I have elicited those feelings in many. [29/9/23, 5:59:44 am] Sam: I think the chances are very high that he either (a) didn’t reply, as he often doesn’t, and maybe we’d have discussed later, or (b) affirmed what I said [29/9/23, 6:00:01 am] Sam: I’ve never known Damien really to disagree with me or anyone [29/9/23, 6:00:02 am] Oli: Quite [29/9/23, 6:00:11 am] Sam: Possibly the one exception being my giving Ryan meth [29/9/23, 6:00:35 am] Oli: Convenient! 🤣 [29/9/23, 6:00:56 am] Oli: Yes not to the person. [29/9/23, 6:01:07 am] Sam: I later accused Damien of merely making that concern up when throwing mud at me, but then embarrassedly remembered that he was actually quite upset with me that night in a way I was quite jarred by [29/9/23, 6:01:13 am] Sam: Because he never had been before [29/9/23, 6:01:29 am] Sam: So … there’s that to be said in Damien’s favour and my disfavour ‎[29/9/23, 6:02:43 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [29/9/23, 6:02:48 am] Oli: My parents don’t exist either. They’re all me! [29/9/23, 6:02:52 am] Oli: I’m Slape too. [29/9/23, 6:02:53 am] Sam: Nothing from Damien in reply [29/9/23, 6:02:57 am] Oli: I think you’re Liam-Rhys [29/9/23, 6:02:58 am] Oli: Haha [29/9/23, 6:03:08 am] Sam: Not much way to prove I didn’t delete something other than the flow of messages which maybe weakly bears it out [29/9/23, 6:03:09 am] Oli: This is absolutely brilliant. [29/9/23, 6:03:14 am] Oli: It’s a fine plot! [29/9/23, 6:03:27 am] Sam: I like you when you’re like this [29/9/23, 6:03:32 am] Oli: OK looking [29/9/23, 6:03:42 am] Sam: Genuinely feel quite warm [29/9/23, 6:03:49 am] Sam: God my brain [29/9/23, 6:03:58 am] Sam: 😵‍💫 [29/9/23, 6:04:06 am] Oli: I can show you genealogical charts on how all of those people link up to me. [29/9/23, 6:04:21 am] Oli: Actually Timmy isn’t really a cousin AND IT’S HIM who started the cousin thing with me [29/9/23, 6:04:33 am] Sam: Wait now I’m lost [29/9/23, 6:04:34 am] Oli: His grandmother married third time round someone who was a distant relation of mine. [29/9/23, 6:04:40 am] Sam: He had sex with your aunt or uncle? [29/9/23, 6:04:43 am] Oli: So it’s sort of ‘step-cousin’ [29/9/23, 6:04:49 am] Oli: Pamela Kay Shuttleworth [29/9/23, 6:04:51 am] Oli: Married a Roua [29/9/23, 6:04:52 am] Oli: Roua [29/9/23, 6:04:54 am] Oli: Rous [29/9/23, 6:04:58 am] Oli: His mother’s mother [29/9/23, 6:05:01 am] Sam: Oh I see [29/9/23, 6:05:08 am] Oli: BUT HE SAYS COUSIN [29/9/23, 6:05:09 am] Sam: Yeah this is why I asked the followup questions [29/9/23, 6:05:12 am] Oli: He’s the one who started it [29/9/23, 6:05:21 am] Sam: Not that you ever - to be fair - claimed that you met them _as_ family [29/9/23, 6:05:21 am] Oli: So everyone says ‘oh that is Timmy’s cousin’ [29/9/23, 6:05:29 am] Oli: I quite like it because it adds to my family! [29/9/23, 6:05:30 am] Oli: Haha [29/9/23, 6:05:31 am] Sam: But I wanted to know if you were claiming that [29/9/23, 6:05:35 am] Sam: And if it was true I guess [29/9/23, 6:05:36 am] Oli: Oh yes it’s made up. [29/9/23, 6:05:38 am] Sam: I don’t know why [29/9/23, 6:05:45 am] Oli: I’m John Prole from Grimsby [29/9/23, 6:05:50 am] Oli: Good idea int it 🤣🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 6:06:10 am] Oli: And why not! [29/9/23, 6:06:13 am] Sam: 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫 [29/9/23, 6:06:16 am] Oli: Well tis true! [29/9/23, 6:06:26 am] Sam: Slap me [29/9/23, 6:06:30 am] Oli: Not really ‘cousin’ [29/9/23, 6:06:33 am] Sam: Slape me [29/9/23, 6:06:35 am] Oli: But it’s his error here [29/9/23, 6:06:36 am] Sam: Nah I’m kidding [29/9/23, 6:06:42 am] Oli: HE GLOMS ONTO ME [29/9/23, 6:06:46 am] Oli: in that sense [29/9/23, 6:07:03 am] Sam: “It is actually _he_ who glommed on to _me_” [29/9/23, 6:07:07 am] Sam: No sorry [29/9/23, 6:07:16 am] Sam: I’m just parodying the DFW clip I sent the other day [29/9/23, 6:07:25 am] Sam: “It is actually I who am in his way” etc [29/9/23, 6:07:38 am] Sam: Brilliant [29/9/23, 6:07:42 am] Sam: You’re cute [29/9/23, 6:07:50 am] Sam: Genuinely and not patronisingly [29/9/23, 6:08:04 am] Sam: I don’t know why but this makes me like you more [29/9/23, 6:08:19 am] Sam: I promise I’m not just slutting it up to make nice [29/9/23, 6:08:44 am] Sam: But ok that brings me to my next question, which is what the fuck is going on with Xander [29/9/23, 6:08:57 am] Oli: Don’t need another lunatic 🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 6:09:07 am] Oli: He is terrible at replying (Damien) [29/9/23, 6:09:14 am] Sam: And why on earth are you thinking about me, or Timmy [29/9/23, 6:09:50 am] Oli: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Alexander_Watt [29/9/23, 6:09:54 am] Oli: His great something grandpa [29/9/23, 6:10:03 am] Oli: This man’s sister my direct ancestress [29/9/23, 6:10:06 am] Oli: So yes he’s also a cousin. [29/9/23, 6:10:09 am] Oli: Sorry about that [29/9/23, 6:10:15 am] Oli: Well he actually is a cousin unlike Timmy [29/9/23, 6:10:17 am] Sam: “Is there some sort of law governing the ownership of water” - meth in text form lmao ‎[29/9/23, 6:10:36 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 6:10:43 am] Sam: Lol at “net worth of over £900,000” [29/9/23, 6:10:49 am] Oli: Some prole wrote that. [29/9/23, 6:10:55 am] Sam: I mean I realise it was probably a large amount but it just sounds funny [29/9/23, 6:10:54 am] Oli: DailyMail esque [29/9/23, 6:11:08 am] Sam: I know my gparents got their house for £11,000 or thereabouts and sold for £9,000,000 [29/9/23, 6:11:09 am] Oli: So it’s not glomming onto people and claiming kinship [29/9/23, 6:11:17 am] Sam: And that was much later than 1928 that they bought it [29/9/23, 6:11:23 am] Sam: So yeah I appreciate [29/9/23, 6:11:23 am] Oli: This [29/9/23, 6:11:27 am] Sam: And so do houses [29/9/23, 6:12:03 am] Sam: Yeah and I get the psychology and it’s not like I never do it myself [29/9/23, 6:12:16 am] Sam: Altrincham for instance [29/9/23, 6:12:30 am] Sam: Whateverthefuckhisnamewas [29/9/23, 6:12:34 am] Sam: Bath man [29/9/23, 6:12:44 am] Sam: Thyme or whatever the fuck [29/9/23, 6:12:49 am] Oli: Gosh! [29/9/23, 6:12:58 am] Sam: Fucking autocorrect 😝 [29/9/23, 6:13:06 am] Sam: Aaaaagrhrhggjfhf stop it autocorrect [29/9/23, 6:13:06 am] Oli: I think I just create problems in my head. [29/9/23, 6:13:09 am] Sam: I am not an old woman [29/9/23, 6:13:13 am] Sam: I do not want emojis [29/9/23, 6:13:17 am] Oli: I should properly articulate it but this is the starting summary. [29/9/23, 6:13:23 am] Sam: And never tongue-sticking-out emojis [29/9/23, 6:13:24 am] Oli: Everyone does emojis nowadays. [29/9/23, 6:13:33 am] Oli: You must be the only one who doesn’t! [29/9/23, 6:13:35 am] Sam: Those are inappropriately darkish or gauche [29/9/23, 6:13:45 am] Sam: I do emojis but not those ones [29/9/23, 6:13:59 am] Sam: They are the emoji equivalent of cocktails with fruit juice in [29/9/23, 6:14:14 am] Oli: LOL [29/9/23, 6:14:19 am] Oli: I like some of those cocktails. [29/9/23, 6:14:42 am] Sam: Haha, got you [29/9/23, 6:14:50 am] Sam: No class [29/9/23, 6:14:53 am] Sam: Lol [29/9/23, 6:15:07 am] Sam: Nah I’m obv being silly now [29/9/23, 6:15:11 am] Oli: Timmy is very cute I think. [29/9/23, 6:15:15 am] Sam: I like you when you have passion! [29/9/23, 6:15:16 am] Oli: You must have a different taste in men. [29/9/23, 6:15:22 am] Oli: Or slight [29/9/23, 6:15:32 am] Sam: But glasses would look good on you too [29/9/23, 6:15:43 am] Oli: LOL [29/9/23, 6:15:46 am] Sam: Haha sorry [29/9/23, 6:15:50 am] Oli: Yes how did you know he has specs [29/9/23, 6:15:53 am] Sam: No maybe he is [29/9/23, 6:15:59 am] Sam: I thought he was initially [29/9/23, 6:16:07 am] Oli: He wears contacts usually out of hubris. [29/9/23, 6:16:16 am] Sam: But no seriously if you’re telling the truth and you’re going out with this Xander guy then you are utterly mad [29/9/23, 6:16:16 am] Oli: Glasses [29/9/23, 6:16:18 am] Oli: Not spectrum [29/9/23, 6:16:24 am] Sam: There is no contest whatsoever [29/9/23, 6:16:34 am] Oli: Oh no he is also me? [29/9/23, 6:16:46 am] Oli: He’s not even my cousin. The Watts and Babingtons never existed. [29/9/23, 6:16:47 am] Sam: Fucking Swann and Odette over here [29/9/23, 6:16:54 am] Oli: I wrote it up a few years ago. [29/9/23, 6:16:56 am] Oli: It’s all fiction! [29/9/23, 6:17:06 am] Sam: That was mostly rhetorical [29/9/23, 6:17:13 am] Sam: Also I like it when you shout at me 😵‍💫 [29/9/23, 6:17:13 am] Oli: Essentially I think you’re the only one of my friends who isn’t me! [29/9/23, 6:17:17 am] Oli: OMG [29/9/23, 6:17:18 am] Oli: LOL [29/9/23, 6:17:25 am] Sam: Maybe I’m you 😉 [29/9/23, 6:17:28 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 6:17:36 am] Oli: Yes Xander doesn’t exist [29/9/23, 6:17:43 am] Sam: I did briefly consider whether this was all one extended episode of meth psychosis and you were also me [29/9/23, 6:17:47 am] Oli: I don’t even exist actually [29/9/23, 6:17:49 am] Oli: Plot twist [29/9/23, 6:18:22 am] Oli: I am mad indeed to be involved in it! [29/9/23, 6:18:23 am] Sam: Then it became a bit too much like Shutter Island and Inception and all those films from those weird few years when everyone decided to make those awful brainfuck-manqué oh-shock-horror-everyone-is-everyone-else films [29/9/23, 6:18:26 am] Oli: He is a nutter [29/9/23, 6:18:27 am] Sam: And so I stopped [29/9/23, 6:18:32 am] Oli: But he’s not because he doesn’t exist! [29/9/23, 6:18:45 am] Oli: I do enjoy this. [29/9/23, 6:19:03 am] Oli: 🤣 [29/9/23, 6:19:19 am] Sam: Well, I suppose it was because I’d never met anyone involved [29/9/23, 6:19:22 am] Sam: Partly that [29/9/23, 6:19:26 am] Oli: Fuck [29/9/23, 6:19:27 am] Sam: Different things for different people [29/9/23, 6:19:28 am] Oli: It could be [29/9/23, 6:19:45 am] Oli: Oh that makes sense. [29/9/23, 6:19:49 am] Sam: To be fair, on most occasions it’s not like I ‘would have’ [29/9/23, 6:19:59 am] Sam: But on some it’s a bit surprising [29/9/23, 6:20:06 am] Sam: But perhaps there just haven’t been that many occasions [29/9/23, 6:20:09 am] Oli: Inception is a quasi pseudo intellectual film [29/9/23, 6:20:17 am] Oli: I’ve always thought. [29/9/23, 6:20:25 am] Sam: Oh they all are [29/9/23, 6:20:42 am] Oli: Very few. [29/9/23, 6:20:54 am] Sam: I remember my mum saying that at school they were forbidden to end their stories with “and then he woke up and it was all a dream” [29/9/23, 6:20:55 am] Oli: I was only just about allowed into your drawing room! [29/9/23, 6:20:59 am] Oli: 😉 [29/9/23, 6:21:02 am] Sam: And I just wish editors would impose the same fucking rule [29/9/23, 6:21:26 am] Sam: Like YES EVERYTHING IS A BRAINFUCK IF YOU CAN JUST DECIDE IT WAS ALL IN SOMEONE’S HEAD AT ANY GIVEN FUCKING MINUTE [29/9/23, 6:21:47 am] Oli: I like this. [29/9/23, 6:21:52 am] Sam: I DONT KNOW QUITE WHAT TO SAY [29/9/23, 6:22:02 am] Sam: SORRH CAP LOCKS ARE STILL ON BUT I WANT TO REPLT WUICJLT [29/9/23, 6:22:12 am] Sam: HOW DONU TURKN THE FUCKING THINGS OFF [29/9/23, 6:22:15 am] Sam: ah [29/9/23, 6:22:19 am] Sam: Quiet [29/9/23, 6:22:22 am] Sam: Ahhhh ‎[29/9/23, 6:22:30 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [29/9/23, 6:22:32 am] Oli: Timmy doesn’t exist either! [29/9/23, 6:22:35 am] Oli: He’s me too [29/9/23, 6:22:38 am] Sam: You sent me that before [29/9/23, 6:22:47 am] Sam: And of Freddie etc [29/9/23, 6:22:47 am] Oli: But now you can appreciate my acting [29/9/23, 6:22:52 am] Oli: This is me [29/9/23, 6:22:59 am] Oli: I’m like Alec Guinness [29/9/23, 6:23:02 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 6:23:08 am] Oli: Kind Hearts and Coronets [29/9/23, 6:23:10 am] Sam: I mean, it’s not really ironclad, I don’t think we’d say that if Slape [29/9/23, 6:23:14 am] Oli: He played 9-10 people [29/9/23, 6:23:16 am] Sam: Of slape [29/9/23, 6:23:27 am] Sam: But no, Timmy I haven’t cared about enough to really form a theory about [29/9/23, 6:23:36 am] Oli: It took me a while to do Timmy but I have it to a T now [29/9/23, 6:23:38 am] Sam: Not just because I’m less attracted to him but because he’s not a main character [29/9/23, 6:23:42 am] Oli: I will master Freddie soon [29/9/23, 6:23:47 am] Oli: Then I’ll get onto Sam [29/9/23, 6:23:48 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 6:23:58 am] Oli: Oh I agree with this funnily [29/9/23, 6:24:17 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 6:24:26 am] Sam: But Xander, I mean, again, you’re fucking mad if you would trade him in for Timmy or me [29/9/23, 6:24:32 am] Oli: Well I suspect it’s your truth! [29/9/23, 6:24:35 am] Sam: Like the fucking ULEZ scrappage scheme [29/9/23, 6:24:40 am] Oli: Truth is a very enigmatic concept. [29/9/23, 6:24:45 am] Oli: I’ve written several essays on it! [29/9/23, 6:25:00 am] Sam: Actually you know what [29/9/23, 6:25:01 am] Sam: No [29/9/23, 6:25:01 am] Oli: Oh it’s not about a ‘trade’. [29/9/23, 6:25:06 am] Sam: I believe Xander specifically [29/9/23, 6:25:23 am] Sam: Because somehow I don’t feel that that message could have been written by you [29/9/23, 6:25:33 am] Sam: Not in a “you can’t be nice” sorta trite way [29/9/23, 6:25:40 am] Sam: But just somehow the voice is too different [29/9/23, 6:25:41 am] Oli: I will show you something else which I wrote as him too [29/9/23, 6:25:45 am] Sam: I can’t really articulate this [29/9/23, 6:25:57 am] Sam: Whereas Freddie, eh, I could much more see that ‎[29/9/23, 6:26:15 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[29/9/23, 6:26:20 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 6:26:25 am] Sam: But to a large extent that is just because it’s how they all speak ‎[29/9/23, 6:26:34 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[29/9/23, 6:26:44 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[29/9/23, 6:26:55 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[29/9/23, 6:27:07 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 6:27:12 am] Oli: It’s all me! [29/9/23, 6:27:14 am] Oli: Me me me [29/9/23, 6:27:17 am] Oli: LOL [29/9/23, 6:27:21 am] Oli: This is ridiculous haha [29/9/23, 6:27:25 am] Sam: Those messages are adorable [29/9/23, 6:27:29 am] Oli: But yes there are some things [29/9/23, 6:27:35 am] Sam: I’m genuinely very envious [29/9/23, 6:27:41 am] Sam: What the fuck are you thinking [29/9/23, 6:27:47 am] Sam: Honestly [29/9/23, 6:28:16 am] Sam: Please don’t hurt him [29/9/23, 6:28:20 am] Sam: God [29/9/23, 6:28:34 am] Sam: Sweet boy [29/9/23, 6:29:01 am] Sam: I’m not normally and basically not ever romantically envious [29/9/23, 6:29:13 am] Sam: Romantically jealous, sure, not romantically envious [29/9/23, 6:29:18 am] Oli: He has a bit of spectrum! [29/9/23, 6:29:26 am] Oli: But going over them they are nice messages. [29/9/23, 6:29:30 am] Sam: But jesus fucking christ you must realise how lucky you are [29/9/23, 6:29:37 am] Sam: Good god [29/9/23, 6:29:42 am] Sam: 😭 [29/9/23, 6:29:54 am] Sam: Protect him at all costs [29/9/23, 6:30:05 am] Sam: Aww [29/9/23, 6:30:07 am] Sam: God [29/9/23, 6:30:07 am] Sam: Ok [29/9/23, 6:30:18 am] Sam: No way I’m continuing this flirtation [29/9/23, 6:30:26 am] Sam: Go back to your fucking boyfriend [29/9/23, 6:30:31 am] Oli: I haven’t noticed this until recently. [29/9/23, 6:30:32 am] Sam: In a nice way but do [29/9/23, 6:30:39 am] Sam: My word [29/9/23, 6:30:56 am] Sam: If you hurt him I will hurt you [29/9/23, 6:31:18 am] Sam: Ffs it’s just too cute [29/9/23, 6:31:32 am] Oli: But it’s all me? [29/9/23, 6:31:43 am] Oli: I am a fantasist contrived by F Scott Fitzgerald [29/9/23, 6:32:15 am] Oli: 🤣 [29/9/23, 6:32:20 am] Sam: No, I don’t think so of Xander [29/9/23, 6:32:22 am] Oli: But seriously I do agree with your sentiment here. [29/9/23, 6:32:30 am] Oli: But all the others yes! [29/9/23, 6:32:34 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 6:32:41 am] Sam: I had considered it, unlike Timmy - that’s a change of heart [29/9/23, 6:33:06 am] Sam: Partly from realising what I said above about the messages, and partly from you sending more such messages [29/9/23, 6:33:15 am] Sam: But god what the fuck are you thinking [29/9/23, 6:33:20 am] Sam: Please don’t do this [29/9/23, 6:33:22 am] Sam: Me or Timmy [29/9/23, 6:33:33 am] Sam: I have a say in the former (and I’m using it) but the latter either [29/9/23, 6:33:35 am] Oli: Lol I love the idea that I am sad enough to just live fiction like P L Travers [29/9/23, 6:33:38 am] Sam: Like no actually quite seriously [29/9/23, 6:33:57 am] Sam: He is a sweet and kind person and it would be wrong and mad of you [29/9/23, 6:34:11 am] Sam: Sweet, kind, and just about everything fucking else [29/9/23, 6:34:15 am] Oli: LOL I hate Timmy again because he has such arrogance and makes himself very aloof in contact [29/9/23, 6:34:21 am] Oli: So it’s just you [29/9/23, 6:34:26 am] Sam: That’s also why you love him [29/9/23, 6:34:27 am] Sam: And me [29/9/23, 6:34:32 am] Oli: (I was good at doing that because it’s me qua Timmy) [29/9/23, 6:34:50 am] Sam: But honestly this Xander guy is much better in just about every way [29/9/23, 6:35:13 am] Sam: (I’m not being absurdly self-abasing, I mean _for you_, but I’m also not proposing to compete, haha) ‎[29/9/23, 6:35:22 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 6:35:30 am] Oli: It’s hard for me to roleplay as an Austrian but I’m learning [29/9/23, 6:35:58 am] Sam: Well, this leads on to the other point [29/9/23, 6:35:58 am] Oli: Who actually was at SCHOOL with me [29/9/23, 6:36:00 am] Oli: Good idea isn’t it [29/9/23, 6:36:21 am] Oli: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Columba%27s_College,_Dublin [29/9/23, 6:36:24 am] Sam: Besides whatever it was that I was calling it [29/9/23, 6:36:27 am] Sam: Besides fraud [29/9/23, 6:36:30 am] Sam: That’s it [29/9/23, 6:36:30 am] Oli: This is ‘school’ in Ireland my dear man by the way [29/9/23, 6:36:34 am] Oli: Lol 🤣🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 6:36:42 am] Sam: Which I think I labelled concern [29/9/23, 6:36:52 am] Sam: Not a very good name tbf [29/9/23, 6:37:00 am] Oli: Though he was many years below so it’s ingratiatingly snobby of me to claim that [29/9/23, 6:37:10 am] Oli: And I was only there for 2 years in person. Did another year and half remote [29/9/23, 6:37:25 am] Oli: Quite [29/9/23, 6:37:33 am] Oli: Columba an interesting figure for Irish history though [29/9/23, 6:38:09 am] Oli: I’m not actually trying to be rude [29/9/23, 6:38:18 am] Oli: Haha I just find it all genuinely thoroughly amusing! [29/9/23, 6:38:30 am] Oli: And it’s good for our relationship: making it more genuine! [29/9/23, 6:39:00 am] Sam: Yes, tho not in the romantic sense a relationship presumably [29/9/23, 6:39:09 am] Sam: Just to be needlessly explicit [29/9/23, 6:39:26 am] Sam: And nothing to do with you but because I couldn’t watch you make that choice [29/9/23, 6:39:31 am] Oli: Maybe we wouldn’t work out like that anyway 🤣 [29/9/23, 6:39:39 am] Oli: But I think we are a funny pair of people [29/9/23, 6:39:41 am] Sam: I will be on the sidelines rooting for you two [29/9/23, 6:39:57 am] Sam: That was gonna be another point and i maybe said it somewhere already [29/9/23, 6:39:58 am] Oli: Ah I see [29/9/23, 6:40:05 am] Oli: Yes what did you mean by that by the way? [29/9/23, 6:40:06 am] Sam: I do not like hanging out with dull people [29/9/23, 6:40:30 am] Oli: Maybe it’s a narcissism/arrogance on my part so I can have an element of control [29/9/23, 6:40:37 am] Sam: You for one reason or another do, or are at the very least possessed of an ostensible propensity to do so [29/9/23, 6:41:03 am] Sam: Well, homeless dull people are easier and cheaper to find [29/9/23, 6:41:23 am] Sam: Oh come on don’t make me drive my little argumentative golf cart all the way to the obvious point [29/9/23, 6:41:26 am] Sam: Haha [29/9/23, 6:41:45 am] Oli: Probably why you are concerned for me! [29/9/23, 6:41:48 am] Sam: Tho to be honest actually maybe there’s no longer any point in the point [29/9/23, 6:41:51 am] Oli: Because this would be a severe mental illness [29/9/23, 6:41:58 am] Oli: I do actually quite like fiction in my head. [29/9/23, 6:42:02 am] Oli: Somewhat like PL Travers [29/9/23, 6:42:10 am] Oli: But not in the hyperbolic way sue did [29/9/23, 6:42:11 am] Oli: She [29/9/23, 6:42:16 am] Sam: Well, yes, probably, whether psychotic or more Slapian, yes [29/9/23, 6:42:54 am] Sam: I actually meant to do some work and I think it may be better to return to this tomorrow [29/9/23, 6:43:08 am] Oli: Yes. Must think on this point too. [29/9/23, 6:43:16 am] Sam: Esp in view of my having pretty much short circuited the main motivation for asking all this [29/9/23, 6:43:19 am] Oli: That was my point. My brain will be better then! [29/9/23, 6:43:32 am] Sam: So it’s all a bit academic now really [29/9/23, 6:43:38 am] Sam: Yes let’s! [29/9/23, 6:44:07 am] Oli: I hope you sleep well xx [29/9/23, 6:44:13 am] Oli: Sweet dreams ❤️ [29/9/23, 6:44:33 am] Oli: Well it should be clarified so we can work out exactly what the thought process was or is. [29/9/23, 6:44:41 am] Oli: I am interested [29/9/23, 6:44:43 am] Sam: You too! And seriously fuck off with the Timmy and me stuff, you are utterly mad and you don’t even half know how fucking lucky you are [29/9/23, 6:44:48 am] Sam: God it’s galling [29/9/23, 6:44:50 am] Sam: Haha [29/9/23, 6:44:53 am] Sam: Sleep well [29/9/23, 6:44:53 am] Oli: Well you are higher than Timmy [29/9/23, 6:44:57 am] Sam: Treasure your boyfriend [29/9/23, 6:44:57 am] Oli: He ROYALLY PISSED ME OFF [29/9/23, 6:45:04 am] Oli: Fucking just ignoring me most of the time [29/9/23, 6:45:06 am] Sam: Honestly [29/9/23, 6:45:12 am] Oli: And then trying to butter me up when it suits him [29/9/23, 6:45:39 am] Sam: Yes that sounds dermatologically unhelpful [29/9/23, 6:45:46 am] Oli: Very [29/9/23, 6:45:50 am] Sam: No but seriously god I am envious [29/9/23, 6:45:54 am] Sam: Aargh [29/9/23, 6:45:56 am] Sam: Christ [29/9/23, 6:46:03 am] Oli: Well appearances are one thing! [29/9/23, 6:46:10 am] Sam: Be grateful [29/9/23, 6:46:11 am] Oli: Life is full of complications. [29/9/23, 6:46:20 am] Sam: Appearances are literally everything! [29/9/23, 6:46:32 am] Sam: What the fuck else is there besides appearances? [29/9/23, 6:46:36 am] Oli: Hello Freddie [29/9/23, 6:46:37 am] Sam: Gravity I suppose [29/9/23, 6:46:41 am] Sam: Maxwell’s force or whatever [29/9/23, 6:46:45 am] Sam: Spooky action at a distance [29/9/23, 6:46:44 am] Oli: Or Freddie as Sam interpets him [29/9/23, 6:46:50 am] Sam: Quantum entanglement [29/9/23, 6:46:50 am] Oli: Thus Babs as Freddie as Sam [29/9/23, 6:46:57 am] Sam: Wave function collapse [29/9/23, 6:46:57 am] Oli: Thoroughly rigorous [29/9/23, 6:47:01 am] Oli: Yea [29/9/23, 6:47:02 am] Oli: Yes [29/9/23, 6:47:12 am] Sam: But for most purposes classical mechanics is an adequate approximation [29/9/23, 6:47:26 am] Sam: And god I wish I had someone like that [29/9/23, 6:47:30 am] Sam: I have NEVER said this [29/9/23, 6:47:34 am] Sam: Never fucking said this [29/9/23, 6:47:37 am] Oli: I meant that there are more intricacies behind every ‘closed’ door [29/9/23, 6:47:38 am] Sam: Ah go away [29/9/23, 6:47:40 am] Sam: lol [29/9/23, 6:47:41 am] Oli: But I do get your point [29/9/23, 6:47:55 am] Oli: That was very Irish [29/9/23, 6:47:58 am] Sam: I know, but come on! ffs! he’s a sweetheart [29/9/23, 6:47:58 am] Oli: Irish syntax [29/9/23, 6:48:10 am] Oli: This is true! [29/9/23, 6:48:13 am] Sam: I don’t know why you’d think of anyone else [29/9/23, 6:48:18 am] Oli: And I do appreciate it [29/9/23, 6:48:37 am] Oli: It’s not a ‘trade’ so much as a different taste from time to time [29/9/23, 6:48:42 am] Sam: Familiarity may breed contempt but it will breed more contempt with me and (I’ll give myself this much) even more with Timmy [29/9/23, 6:48:45 am] Oli: Which probably makes one appreciate the original more [29/9/23, 6:49:00 am] Oli: But only if they’re Floreats [29/9/23, 6:49:01 am] Sam: Yeah, I mean, please do [29/9/23, 6:49:05 am] Sam: 😭 [29/9/23, 6:49:05 am] Oli: So can be glommed on! [29/9/23, 6:49:10 am] Sam: Well, he’s an exception [29/9/23, 6:49:09 am] Oli: 😈 [29/9/23, 6:49:14 am] Sam: Glom onto him hahahaha [29/9/23, 6:49:20 am] Sam: Please do glom [29/9/23, 6:49:24 am] Sam: God it makes me smile [29/9/23, 6:49:27 am] Oli: Glommity glom [29/9/23, 6:49:35 am] Oli: It makes me roar with laughter [29/9/23, 6:49:37 am] Sam: > When I loved, I loved deeply [29/9/23, 6:49:40 am] Sam: > it wasn’t often [29/9/23, 6:49:43 am] Oli: A confused laughter albeit [29/9/23, 6:49:45 am] Oli: But laughter [29/9/23, 6:49:57 am] Sam: 🥺🥺🥺 [29/9/23, 6:50:18 am] Oli: God [29/9/23, 6:50:28 am] Sam: God this is making me too miserable or bittersweet or something like that [29/9/23, 6:50:41 am] Sam: I’m not actually literally in love with your boyfriend, lol, but [29/9/23, 6:50:44 am] Sam: My grandpa said [29/9/23, 6:50:47 am] Sam: As I’ve surely quoted [29/9/23, 6:50:51 am] Sam: To my mum and her sisters [29/9/23, 6:51:04 am] Sam: To ‘marry a fat man who whistles’ [29/9/23, 6:51:06 am] Oli: I think Damien is much more of a glimmer onto these people than I [29/9/23, 6:51:15 am] Oli: He made his whole life on it [29/9/23, 6:51:21 am] Oli: As you said in that famous message [29/9/23, 6:51:24 am] Oli: Glommer [29/9/23, 6:51:27 am] Sam: He’s not literally a fat man, Xander, but he’s what my grandpa meant [29/9/23, 6:51:33 am] Sam: A sweet and nice human being [29/9/23, 6:51:43 am] Sam: If I were you I would nail him to the floor [29/9/23, 6:51:51 am] Oli: YES [29/9/23, 6:52:00 am] Oli: Good punishment [29/9/23, 6:52:06 am] Oli: Haha no I like your points [29/9/23, 6:52:30 am] Sam: He did better than a lot of people [29/9/23, 6:52:39 am] Sam: Trust me, that sugar baby scale goes AALLLLLL the way down [29/9/23, 6:52:53 am] Sam: You presumably have met Marc Corbett Weaver’s boyfriend [29/9/23, 6:53:06 am] Sam: I thought he’d come in stuck to Marc’s shoe [29/9/23, 6:53:29 am] Oli: Oh yes [29/9/23, 6:53:32 am] Oli: Manning Clark? [29/9/23, 6:53:38 am] Sam: Hahah no [29/9/23, 6:53:46 am] Oli: It was the other one [29/9/23, 6:53:49 am] Oli: Who was it [29/9/23, 6:53:54 am] Sam: The rage-filled Lithuanian dwarf or whatever his name is [29/9/23, 6:54:10 am] Sam: See this is why you don’t want to go out with me [29/9/23, 6:54:15 am] Sam: Xander would say something nice [29/9/23, 6:54:17 am] Sam: Choose life [29/9/23, 6:54:20 am] Sam: Choose Xander [29/9/23, 6:54:43 am] Oli: Yes I know the one but forget the name [29/9/23, 6:54:44 am] Sam: (Ok I am slightly constructing a made-up extrapolated human being at this point lol) [29/9/23, 6:54:50 am] Oli: I wonder if I deleted him from social media [29/9/23, 6:54:57 am] Sam: Luca? Lucas? LUCA? [29/9/23, 6:55:19 am] Oli: I do that multiple times daily [29/9/23, 6:55:26 am] Oli: Xander is my creation too [29/9/23, 6:55:37 am] Oli: Lol well maybe we have moved beyond that level of madness now! [29/9/23, 6:55:41 am] Sam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_universal_common_ancestor (since for some reason I’ve made a couple of LUCA-related jokes in the last few days - it’s stuck in my head I guess) [29/9/23, 6:55:47 am] Oli: But it is nonetheless very amusing madness [29/9/23, 6:55:55 am] Oli: YES [29/9/23, 6:56:01 am] Oli: Something like that [29/9/23, 6:56:12 am] Sam: Honestly go away and be with your boyfriend you lucky bastard what the fuck are you doing [29/9/23, 6:56:18 am] Sam: Imma do some work [29/9/23, 6:56:32 am] Sam: This has been a waste of time but latterly a heartwarming waste of time [29/9/23, 6:56:31 am] Oli: Well I have all of these problems to which I alluded [29/9/23, 6:56:36 am] Oli: And which provoked your concern [29/9/23, 6:56:40 am] Oli: Though ironically not [29/9/23, 6:56:50 am] Sam: And this is a perfect demonstration of why you don’t want me [29/9/23, 6:56:50 am] Oli: Your concern was based on your hatchet job of me [29/9/23, 6:56:59 am] Oli: But that is how we all operate as humans 🤣 [29/9/23, 6:57:04 am] Sam: Because this is going to be the outcome, haha [29/9/23, 6:57:10 am] Oli: LOL [29/9/23, 6:57:26 am] Oli: Which is why I must answer your questions. [29/9/23, 6:57:31 am] Oli: We can maybe find some things out [29/9/23, 6:57:34 am] Sam: I would add that you asked for … ah well screw it it wasn’t good either way, no [29/9/23, 6:58:03 am] Sam: But at least to be clear I wasn’t saying it with that emotional valence at this point in time [29/9/23, 6:58:07 am] Oli: I find it highly amusing. [29/9/23, 6:58:22 am] Sam: I don’t know if it’s really wise to return to this though [29/9/23, 6:58:36 am] Oli: It may help us have a more genuine relationship! [29/9/23, 6:58:43 am] Oli: And maybe can find some of the problems with me [29/9/23, 6:59:03 am] Sam: I don’t really think it’s going to help to settle anything, and frankly I don’t want to come between you two, which is a possible outcome from some stereotypical arguing and emotional bonding experience whatever that may come of this [29/9/23, 6:59:17 am] Sam: But I dunno [29/9/23, 6:59:21 am] Sam: We can decide tomorrow! [29/9/23, 6:59:41 am] Sam: But to be quite honest yeah I’d sooner you two be in the world [29/9/23, 6:59:46 am] Sam: It warms my heart [29/9/23, 7:00:04 am] Sam: I seriously will be very upset with you if you hurt this boy [29/9/23, 7:00:10 am] Oli: Oh I don’t think it would come between! [29/9/23, 7:00:38 am] Sam: I don’t know why you’d _want_ to, though [29/9/23, 7:00:54 am] Sam: Ah wel, it’s 7am, let’s leave well enough alone [29/9/23, 7:01:00 am] Oli: I don’t like hurting people either! [29/9/23, 7:01:09 am] Oli: . [29/9/23, 7:01:27 am] Oli: Yes bloody hell [29/9/23, 7:01:32 am] Oli: To be continued ‎[29/9/23, 7:02:49 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 7:02:54 am] Oli: Yes you have this aloof arrogance too but it’s slightly different. I must work that out! [29/9/23, 7:02:58 am] Oli: Meant in a nice way! [29/9/23, 7:02:58 am] Sam: This is a very odd feeling for me [29/9/23, 7:03:08 am] Oli: Maybe I do too but I don’t think it’s the same. [29/9/23, 7:03:10 am] Sam: Oh yes lots! Haha [29/9/23, 7:03:21 am] Oli: I’m Slape too by the way. [29/9/23, 7:03:26 am] Oli: Hole in one [29/9/23, 7:03:37 am] Oli: WHAT IF [29/9/23, 7:03:44 am] Oli: The entire human race is Slape?! [29/9/23, 7:03:45 am] Sam: I think I did address that possibility (grep for ‘collusion with slape’, lol) [29/9/23, 7:03:52 am] Oli: I think you raised the same point the other day! [29/9/23, 7:03:55 am] Oli: Yea [29/9/23, 7:03:56 am] Oli: Yes [29/9/23, 7:03:58 am] Oli: Autocorrect [29/9/23, 7:04:14 am] Sam: Anyway yeah I … god I feel quite depressed [29/9/23, 7:04:21 am] Sam: I don’t know why [29/9/23, 7:04:29 am] Oli: Agree with this [29/9/23, 7:04:34 am] Sam: Well, in a shallow sense I do, but god [29/9/23, 7:04:34 am] Oli: Why?! [29/9/23, 7:04:37 am] Oli: I feel happier [29/9/23, 7:04:37 am] Sam: Well I’d never felt that [29/9/23, 7:04:41 am] Sam: I do now [29/9/23, 7:04:49 am] Oli: It has developed my friendship/relationship with you [29/9/23, 7:04:53 am] Oli: I feel anyway [29/9/23, 7:04:55 am] Sam: Literally the first time in living memory [29/9/23, 7:05:00 am] Sam: No I mean envy [29/9/23, 7:05:02 am] Oli: Maybe we will find another cause of my madness soon [29/9/23, 7:05:04 am] Sam: Or not envy [29/9/23, 7:05:09 am] Sam: But a sort of induced wistfulness [29/9/23, 7:05:25 am] Sam: It’s not that I LITERALLY want to go out with your boyfriend [29/9/23, 7:05:39 am] Sam: But that it’s made me wish for something like that [29/9/23, 7:05:52 am] Oli: Not sure it is ‘something like that’ [29/9/23, 7:05:58 am] Sam: Not Louis, weirdly, I just realised, it hasn’t induced that sort of nostalgia, I guess because he’s quite different [29/9/23, 7:06:01 am] Oli: But maybe looks more like it than other relationships [29/9/23, 7:06:06 am] Oli: Doesn’t exist! [29/9/23, 7:06:20 am] Sam: Maybe you don’t see it so clearly! [29/9/23, 7:06:28 am] Sam: 🤔🤫 [29/9/23, 7:06:30 am] Oli: Could be [29/9/23, 7:06:34 am] Oli: Or maybe you! [29/9/23, 7:06:40 am] Sam: Eh [29/9/23, 7:06:42 am] Sam: Unlikely [29/9/23, 7:06:45 am] Sam: Haha [29/9/23, 7:06:53 am] Oli: Yes you are a Leo! [29/9/23, 7:07:01 am] Oli: I didn’t realise until your Snapchat profile told me [29/9/23, 7:07:15 am] Sam: Fuck off back to your sweet and lovely boyfriend [29/9/23, 7:07:20 am] Sam: Oh god did it [29/9/23, 7:07:22 am] Sam: Fucking app [29/9/23, 7:07:28 am] Sam: Ok imma work now [29/9/23, 7:07:44 am] Sam: Seriously, for the umpteenth time ‎[29/9/23, 7:07:45 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 7:07:51 am] Sam: What thou lovest well remains [29/9/23, 7:07:54 am] Sam: The rest is dross [29/9/23, 7:08:02 am] Sam: ^^^ [29/9/23, 7:08:16 am] Sam: *viz ibid* [29/9/23, 7:08:21 am] Sam: supra [29/9/23, 7:08:21 am] Oli: Humanity is mostly that [29/9/23, 7:08:23 am] Sam: n.2 [29/9/23, 7:08:33 am] Oli: Hence why we find odd ways of existing [29/9/23, 7:08:35 am] Sam: So count yourself lucky [29/9/23, 7:08:41 am] Sam: Jesus [29/9/23, 7:08:43 am] Sam: Aaar fb d [29/9/23, 7:08:45 am] Sam: Sheehan’s [29/9/23, 7:08:49 am] Sam: Bejeheherbensjsissiszuzbzbz [29/9/23, 7:08:53 am] Oli: My point was that it’s not a rainbow bouncy castle! [29/9/23, 7:09:00 am] Oli: Maybe looks like it for whatever reason [29/9/23, 7:09:07 am] Sam: [van gogh’s painting at eternity’s gate] [29/9/23, 7:09:13 am] Oli: After no sleep? [29/9/23, 7:09:21 am] Oli: I don’t know how you manage. [29/9/23, 7:09:34 am] Sam: [goya’s black paintings and specifically the one of the lunatics in the yard or maybe the dog that’s drowning or looks like it] [29/9/23, 7:09:45 am] Sam: Meth! [29/9/23, 7:10:16 am] Sam: Yet another reason you don’t — dammit sorry I need to go, this has fucked me up in some way I wasn’t prepared for [29/9/23, 7:10:35 am] Sam: Not any of the rest of this chat but just those messsges [29/9/23, 7:10:40 am] Sam: Goddammit [29/9/23, 7:10:42 am] Sam: See you later [29/9/23, 7:11:35 am] Oli: YES [29/9/23, 7:12:06 am] Oli: This is unfinished and we must carry on getting to know each other properly. Your questions (the way I want to answer them anyway) I think can be a stepping stone to helping that. [29/9/23, 7:12:20 am] Oli: Hopefully you don’t retreat back into the normal status quo! [29/9/23, 7:12:27 am] Oli: The same for me [29/9/23, 7:12:37 am] Oli: Yes I suppose coke can do it [29/9/23, 7:12:44 am] Oli: But I can’t think as well as you [29/9/23, 7:12:48 am] Oli: You are a functioning druggie [29/9/23, 7:12:53 am] Oli: My grandmother was a functioning alcoholic [29/9/23, 7:13:07 am] Oli: Haha another personal fact about me there! [29/9/23, 7:13:35 am] Oli: We can get over it I hope and it won’t fuck you up. I hope! I don’t want to fuck you up! [29/9/23, 7:13:45 am] Oli: You too xx ‎[29/9/23, 7:19:16 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/9/23, 7:19:17 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 7:20:31 am] Sam: (I honestly have no clue what he meant by that, but I will assume that they don’t know each other and that he meant something else) [29/9/23, 7:20:43 am] Sam: I also liked the dad joke [29/9/23, 7:23:28 am] Sam: The normal status quo is being friends I think?! Which works, I also think? I mean I’m always happy to become closer friends, but I somehow suspect you still have designs on me, which puts me in the odd position of sort of turning myself down on your behalf, haha. Go familiarise yourself with gradient descent!! [29/9/23, 7:27:59 am] Sam: God I’m sorry, this sort of envy and emotional disturbance and concern about boyfriends is … all those things are very alien to me. I’m not just saying this. I’ve probably said it here and there over the years. But .. there is nothing in the world for any of us except what you’ve already got. [29/9/23, 7:30:43 am] Sam: Sorry, I didn’t quite register the quotes of my own messages in there, but luckily they seem just about ok! [29/9/23, 7:32:31 am] Sam: Ah dammit sorry I misread this somehow, despite having read it correctly and replied to the correct thing as you can see there 🤦‍♀️ My head is tired. [29/9/23, 7:59:48 am] Oli: Shall get to these at midday my brain will be better then. Already thinking of what to say it is very interesting I think [29/9/23, 8:00:06 am] Sam: Argh god I was just going to post my summary but my brain is gone [29/9/23, 8:00:27 am] Sam: I don’t think there’s any point wasting our time on the ‘concern’ point [29/9/23, 8:01:33 am] Oli: For now a slight joking bit… [29/9/23, 8:01:38 am] Sam: And I don’t mind [29/9/23, 8:01:47 am] Sam: Regrettably it’s entirely up to you what you do with your life! [29/9/23, 8:01:54 am] Sam: You know my thoughts [29/9/23, 8:02:07 am] Oli: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babington_family [29/9/23, 8:02:12 am] Sam: But this is a ‘here is a hand’ point in my view [29/9/23, 8:02:13 am] Oli: I’m a fraud you see [29/9/23, 8:02:48 am] Oli: Actually in some ways I am because it’s my great grandmother but we did genuinely and properly go down the female line [29/9/23, 8:02:59 am] Oli: Anyway I know you don’t have the same interest [29/9/23, 8:03:10 am] Sam: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Addams_Family [29/9/23, 8:03:19 am] Sam: Nah I’m just being stupid [29/9/23, 8:03:28 am] Oli: That’s my joking probs my snobby bit coming out [29/9/23, 8:03:40 am] Oli: And that’s yours LOL [29/9/23, 8:03:45 am] Oli: Shall be serious later [29/9/23, 8:03:50 am] Sam: But ok, yes, fraud, fine, but as I said earlier that’s not really the point and I think there’s a reason we’re opting to dwell here [29/9/23, 8:04:23 am] Sam: Maybe it was the thrust of the point I was making to Damien, I can’t even remember [29/9/23, 8:04:40 am] Sam: But not the point I’m making now [29/9/23, 8:04:50 am] Sam: Or questions or whatever I was pretending they are [29/9/23, 8:06:12 am] Sam: I’m not doing telemarketing for a philosophy, I don’t really care, but I’m unsure it’s ever a bad idea to be clear about what is the case [29/9/23, 8:06:41 am] Sam: Anyway [29/9/23, 8:06:49 am] Sam: Yeah [29/9/23, 8:06:52 am] Sam: I dunno [29/9/23, 8:07:28 am] Sam: I do mean more or less what I said in the other chat, and to Damien (precise degrees of consanguinity notwithstanding), etc [29/9/23, 8:07:59 am] Sam: The basic fact is that this strikes me as a tremendous waste of a life [29/9/23, 8:08:22 am] Sam: And arguably a sacrilege [29/9/23, 8:10:24 am] Sam: And moral embezzlement [29/9/23, 8:10:31 am] Sam: Possibly more besides [29/9/23, 8:10:31 am] Oli: It would be [29/9/23, 8:11:44 am] Oli: I will wake my mind up! [29/9/23, 8:14:06 am] Sam: Please! [29/9/23, 8:14:15 am] Sam: No, sorry, that’s a bit rude [29/9/23, 8:14:34 am] Sam: These are good upper arm exercise, these threads [29/9/23, 8:17:35 am] Sam: But it’s a bit boring [29/9/23, 8:17:41 am] Sam: Because I like making clever arguments [29/9/23, 8:17:46 am] Sam: And here I’m not making a clever argument [29/9/23, 8:18:04 am] Sam: It’s a bit like doing some rote chore at one’s work [29/9/23, 8:20:11 am] Sam: “Oh no, it’s ‘pointing out to the idle rich all the suffering they let happen’ time” (or something like that, my brain is fried) [29/9/23, 8:21:44 am] Sam: It’s just … I get the impulse and everyone does it, but one cannot argue reality away. [29/9/23, 8:24:21 am] Sam: And it’s your prerogative to do as you please, but it’s my prerogative to say as I feel if you ask me, I guess [29/9/23, 8:24:46 am] Sam: I just … come on, let’s not do this [29/9/23, 8:24:54 am] Sam: You know as well as I do [29/9/23, 8:52:52 am] Sam: I mean, come on. I have put up quite patiently with various snarky remarks about wanting to help people “but I’m not a Grosvenor” and suchlike, while spending, as you now tell me, £9k a month on coke, and whatever else on going to Henley and fuck knows. If you want to deprecate me, go ahead, but I will not let you exculpate yourself. I can try to be friends, sure. I cannot give you an honest reply when you are shouting about how it’s a fucked up world that let Rupert die when the answer is that *that is you*, you are that world, it’s made up of several million people making their excuses for not doing a thing, and that being appalled at it does the square root of fuck all when you’re not appalled enough to *do anything*. [29/9/23, 8:54:02 am] Sam: And you won’t, and we’ll have this argument, and you’ll maybe snap at me and make it unpleasant or exhausting enough for me to do something else with my morning, and at the end of it maybe you’ll persuade yourself or maybe you won’t, I dunno. I don’t see the point of this. [29/9/23, 9:09:49 am] Oli: What I don’t want to do is go back to square one and be incriminated for what are probably (don’t say ‘no it’s not probable it’s definite NOW TO WORK WITH YOU BOY!’ you are PROBABLY right but I am not of sound enough mind yet to get on your boat and please don’t say you won’t talk to me until I am. That helps no-one.) my moral misguidings and return to being looked down upon by you (that’s what I meant when I said status quo). [29/9/23, 9:10:13 am] Oli: I think we are in a good stage and in a moment I shall send my proper thoughts. [29/9/23, 9:23:36 am] Oli: Which I will have to think about and write, so it may (or WILL) take a bit of time. I hope there will be no pre-emptive rage or arguments (I don’t want rages or arguments like that either; a bit of it is of course understandable and to be expected). [29/9/23, 9:25:25 am] Oli: PLEASE bear with me. Why are we all so fucked up? Maybe you don’t think you are (and I have no reason yet to specifically think you are), but I think we all are in our own way. [29/9/23, 9:35:44 am] Oli: And I will be balanced (or try as best as I can)! [29/9/23, 9:35:45 am] Oli: Sorry I just went out (and wrote most of this from) to the shops to get a croissant and the like for some breakfast, to be consumed alongside the ridiculous coke which will probably like your meth allow me to remain compos mentis (I hope). I am probably becoming a functioning druggie too. How exciting [29/9/23, 9:37:33 am] Oli: It would be so much easier if someone somewhere could press a button to make everything OK and make us all agree. But maybe it’d take the spice of life away (odd point initially and maybe ‘inhumane’ and I’m not trying to defend it; I just have this thought processing, it’s somewhat older and probably from my grandpa, so I am actually, to some extent, him 🤣). [29/9/23, 9:38:22 am] Oli: He is a very conflicted man too. [29/9/23, 9:40:08 am] Oli: Now to start thinking. I don’t want to be pompous (LOL) and tell you what you can and can’t do (what the fuck am I even on? Soon to be fucking fentanyl probably) but feel free (God) to send some thoughts now (to an extent what I’ve written here potentially can mislead you about my personality and thoughts because it was relatively quick and REACTIVE, like your missives to Damien). [29/9/23, 9:40:35 am] Oli: More shortly. Don’t let me distract you from what should be a fruitful working day for you either. [29/9/23, 9:47:49 am] Oli: By the way, this morning, I think, I was in a semi-psychotic state to an extent, like what you described. [29/9/23, 9:47:49 am] Oli: The result of too many sniffs (I just put it on the tongue mostly now). [29/9/23, 9:48:49 am] Oli: And every 5-10 minutes I can still hear salient sounds, as though I were listening to a sea shell. [29/9/23, 9:48:49 am] Oli: Completely and utterly deranged [29/9/23, 9:49:44 am] Oli: But I alternate between this and the nose. [29/9/23, 9:50:06 am] Oli: Right. I shall form some thoughts. [29/9/23, 9:51:29 am] Oli: In the hope that something positive shall emerge. I hope. [29/9/23, 9:52:09 am] Oli: 🙏🙏🙏 ‎[29/9/23, 10:47:10 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[29/9/23, 10:47:15 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[29/9/23, 10:59:37 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[29/9/23, 11:00:50 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[29/9/23, 11:02:43 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[29/9/23, 11:03:26 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[29/9/23, 11:07:11 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [29/9/23, 11:07:25 am] Oli: OK. Sorry for inundating with some pointless and some relevant stuff. [29/9/23, 11:07:50 am] Oli: I am now going to try and to the best of my ability write something down. [29/9/23, 12:26:45 pm] Oli: I might’ve been a bit overly harsh (genuinely unintentionally) this morning as most of it was instantly reactive, like your messages you showed me. Am now carefully considering. [29/9/23, 12:29:21 pm] Oli: ❤️ [29/9/23, 12:29:56 pm] Sam: Should I read it or not? Haha, I had you muted (no offence, actually from a bit earlier on when I was trying to stop texting) so I’m very happy to not to read anything that you don’t want to have said! [29/9/23, 12:30:16 pm] Oli: Also don’t worry, re something you mentioned earlier. I am not obsessed with you and nor am I a sex pest, unlike so many we know. When I say cute it means something different to most usually just wanting a leg over or to be in love forever after. [29/9/23, 12:30:27 pm] Oli: Oh it’s not my ‘message’ just my initial thoughts. [29/9/23, 12:30:43 pm] Oli: But I suppose it’s not harmful! [29/9/23, 12:30:52 pm] Oli: And I suspected you did! 🤣 [29/9/23, 12:31:26 pm] Oli: And I don’t mean what I sent after we spoke. [29/9/23, 12:31:35 pm] Oli: I mean the stuff I said when we spoke in the morning. [29/9/23, 12:31:42 pm] Sam: Nah, I haven’t read anything yet, so feel free to unsend anything that’s better not sent! [29/9/23, 12:31:56 pm] Oli: Or some of it. Wasn’t obviously bad. [29/9/23, 12:32:16 pm] Oli: Haha well it is my honest reply to your last message/thoughts so it’s best not to hide things I think. [29/9/23, 12:33:06 pm] Oli: I do genuinely hope after I’ve clarified my thoughts, and this will hopefully clarify and greatly expand on the messages replying to your last messages at 9am, that there will be the possibility of greater understanding, whatever that means. [29/9/23, 12:33:56 pm] Sam: Wait I’m lost, it’s only just become the afternoon so that’s quite broad! Also, by “I don’t mean” do you mean “I am not now referring to”, or “I did not sincerely believe what I said”? [29/9/23, 12:35:12 pm] Sam: Gosh, sorry, ok, well, basically I’ll read in a few mins so please do hack away at your oeuvre in the meantime! [29/9/23, 12:36:07 pm] Oli: This has stopped now by the way. I was clearly in the midst of some coke equivalent to your meth madness. God that’s a lesson. [29/9/23, 12:36:23 pm] Oli: Well I didn’t realise until a few hours ago that it’s Friday! [29/9/23, 12:37:05 pm] Oli: I am not know referring to. [29/9/23, 12:37:37 pm] Oli: But also probably I don’t believe it as sincerely as… cut that… I didn’t express it as I could have and as I should be able to. [29/9/23, 12:38:12 pm] Oli: Yes it’s not going to be Shakespearean but I just hope a bit more thoughtful! [29/9/23, 12:38:49 pm] Oli: And fuck yes it’s only just turned midday; it feels like 7pm! 🤣 [29/9/23, 12:49:11 pm] Sam: Cool beans 🫘 Well, I can’t promise I’m going to be convinced by whatever you’ve said but I’ll read it in one min! Sorry, just freezing to death at the moment, haha [29/9/23, 12:49:34 pm] Sam: (Not a poverty situation, I just left a garden door open and then forgot about it) [29/9/23, 12:52:38 pm] Oli: It has certainly got colder. [29/9/23, 12:53:11 pm] Oli: Yes a sort of side point. Damien always used to say, I suspect he clearly believed it, that you had a million quid in your current account. [29/9/23, 12:53:48 pm] Oli: I’m not sure from where he got his idea. Maybe he’s right. Not to be vulgar but I just remembered it now. [29/9/23, 12:55:56 pm] Oli: As you read through what I’ve sent (please don’t take it the wrong way; it’s not bad, so I think, but I know your moral compass works in certain ways) I shall get back to writing the answers and my general thoughts. [29/9/23, 12:56:22 pm] Sam: North, generally! [29/9/23, 12:56:55 pm] Oli: Actually Alex and I discussed this (not greatly but after that fracas, if you can call it that). [29/9/23, 12:57:07 pm] Oli: Discussed your moral compass! [29/9/23, 12:59:40 pm] Sam: Nah I don’t know. It is your indifference or indecision or whatever you call it that I dislike (along with that of most other people, who have varying degrees of freedom and of excuse). It’s not necessary for you to engage in some Extended Reflection on the Nature of the Eternal Good in order to decide whether to rescue someone from a burning building or repay your debts or whatever. [29/9/23, 1:02:44 pm] Sam: It’s just … I don’t understand how this argument is meant to hold any water. If I were raping someone every day and I said “well, just give me a while [read: indefinitely] to consider the whole thing, and in the interim you mustn’t think any less of me because I am _Contemplating The Good_”, what … what does that compass? [29/9/23, 1:03:37 pm] Sam: It is _the fact that_ you are not bothered enough to spend your life any better than this that I find troubling [29/9/23, 1:06:38 pm] Sam: And I don’t care, but I insist on calling a spade a spade. Aside from anything else, I see the effects of this really extraordinarily wide ranging insincerity on you or Damien or whoever, and it causes a kind of derangement, like all the schizophasic babble about Himmler and whatever else. (This is what I meant with the Grosvenor example in particular, since you seemed to be laundering that obvious known rubbish into what seemed to be a serious conclusion, very possibly without even thinking or caring that that was the case.) ‎ [29/9/23, 1:12:12 pm] Oli: This is a very acceptable point. What I will say is I wouldn’t agree that I mean ‘indefinitely’, however messed up my priorities. [29/9/23, 1:13:23 pm] Oli: Or wouldn’t like to think that I mean indefinitely, not wanting to sound insensitive. [29/9/23, 1:14:33 pm] Sam: I mean, do as you please, it’s always good to stop raping no matter how late in the day. But it seems like you think I will grant you some kind of moral reprieve. I can’t even understand the thinking involved in that. It’s not necessary for you to understand or agree that what you’re doing is wrong. [29/9/23, 1:14:42 pm] Oli: Clearly, yes, that is one of the problems, or could be. [29/9/23, 1:15:07 pm] Oli: Because I do agree that there are more meaningful ways to spend one’s life. I am just lost. [29/9/23, 1:16:10 pm] Oli: I don’t know if everyone else who finds it easier to ignore claims to be ‘lost’ but that will be my claim. I suspect they don’t because they probably wouldn’t even accept the POSSIBILITY of some change. [29/9/23, 1:17:40 pm] Sam: Sure, and I hope you find your way out! It does strike me that this mental incapacity mostly seems to strike when discussing yourself and not so much others, but perhaps it’s still sincere, I don’t know. But I hope you change it somehow either way. [29/9/23, 1:18:00 pm] Oli: Yes I don’t think I thought or cared that that could be the case but that must be the conclusion implied. [29/9/23, 1:18:26 pm] Sam: I’m not trying to have a go at you, but … well, here I am, I guess [29/9/23, 1:18:33 pm] Oli: Was just one of my flippant remarks. Not as easily flippant as ‘Himmler’/‘tonsure’ but the next level down. [29/9/23, 1:19:27 pm] Oli: I like hearing how I come across to others or how they think I should make a change. [29/9/23, 1:19:28 pm] Sam: I would agree with that [29/9/23, 1:20:28 pm] Oli: Most show their arrogance and fight back ‘fock off ya Cunt’ (maybe ‘cont’ if trying to keep the northern) but that doesn’t go anywhere. [29/9/23, 1:20:47 pm] Sam: I mean, I don’t care about the denigration of my … help or sacrifice or whatever you’d call it … but I don’t like the implication that you had even less ability to help, that you were specifically _less_ privileged [29/9/23, 1:21:38 pm] Oli: A priori morals [29/9/23, 1:22:11 pm] Oli: Interesting. But that is probably too much of a tangent at this point! [29/9/23, 1:23:20 pm] Sam: And if you wonder what comes between us, I mean, yes, it’s that you by your own admission are in denial of reality. (Arguable nonsense of that sentence is recognised and intended and up to you to decide if that really makes any sort of sense to you.) [29/9/23, 1:24:39 pm] Sam: I get the strong, _strong_ feeling that you think this is some sort of fleeting interest in non-selfishness that can be defeated by talking a lot and changing the subject and waiting for it to pass. [29/9/23, 1:25:32 pm] Sam: Because this air of ‘lost’ and ‘unwell’ and all this stuff seem to vanish quite quickly afterwards once we’re talking about Slape or Damien or god knows whose lunch you’re going to or whatever. [29/9/23, 1:26:25 pm] Sam: And that won’t happen (brief distractions notwithstanding) because *I do actually care about - and even occasionally for - other people* [29/9/23, 1:26:37 pm] Oli: That is probably a very common, unreflective strategy to get out of something which one finds awkward for any reason (here mostly… well I wonder what for anyone and for me in particular and if they’re the same). [29/9/23, 1:26:44 pm] Sam: I’m not boasting, I’m just explaining the nature of my illness. [29/9/23, 1:27:04 pm] Sam: People have a variety of ways! [29/9/23, 1:27:26 pm] Oli: Yes. I have good illusions for myself to superficially ‘find’ myself. [29/9/23, 1:28:40 pm] Sam: I’m surprised that “oh well, I’m not going to make a difference to the total amount of [starvation, poverty, rape, something else]” hasn’t come up yet! [29/9/23, 1:29:30 pm] Oli: Oh yes I dealt with those ‘situations’ in philosophy BA. I remember I, academically at least, disagreed with them. [29/9/23, 1:29:59 pm] Oli: I think this is an all too common moral fallacy. [29/9/23, 1:30:05 pm] Sam: But yes, I mean, I certainly have no opposition to you reflecting on where you might choose to care about others, but I’m not going to pay you a moral advance on that projected metanoia, haha. [29/9/23, 1:30:42 pm] Oli: This I can agree with. [29/9/23, 1:30:56 pm] Oli: As in this seems to be analytically true or right. [29/9/23, 1:31:18 pm] Sam: I don’t know if it’s literally just me you want to trick, i.e. purely for the sake of talking to me, or if I’m providing some sort of more general reassurance, but I can’t … like, I’m not selling indulgences here. [29/9/23, 1:34:04 pm] Sam: Anyway, I don’t know. It depresses me, all of this, really. It is staggering how much time in my life I have spent having this conversation, with so many people. “Please tell me I can make origami with the word ‘moral’ in such a way that it’s ok to let my child or friend starve!” [29/9/23, 1:35:18 pm] Sam: The problem is that you don’t care, and I think maybe can’t understand what it is to care, and so you’ve assigned some other weird meaning to the word moral (“this stuff I’ve got to do for no clear reason”) [29/9/23, 1:37:16 pm] Oli: Oh I don’t think that’s the case. They are quite often not indulgences! 🤣 ‎[29/9/23, 1:38:17 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 1:38:41 pm] Sam: Oh no I think talking at all is an indulgence! [29/9/23, 1:38:54 pm] Sam: Though I meant remission from your sins [29/9/23, 1:39:50 pm] Sam: In short I reiterate my message from earlier this morning which none of this has really changed [29/9/23, 1:40:12 pm] Oli: Oh yes. [29/9/23, 1:40:15 pm] Sam: Also the subsequent message [29/9/23, 1:41:01 pm] Sam: You fundamentally don’t think this matters and don’t understand that I think this matters [29/9/23, 1:45:05 pm] Sam: Except when something happens, eg when you meet someone or when your friend dies, and then suddenly you’re angry at the world (except yourself) for doing what is utterly and entirely what you do. Actually the world on average does a bit more. I don’t think you’re Atlas holding up the stars on that front. That Nicholas guy can maybe be faulted, but £700 and a spare room is still more than … ok I’ve made my point. And that is the perfect illustration of what comes between us, because how do you fucking expect me to reply to that? [29/9/23, 1:46:39 pm] Sam: I don’t know, maybe lost is an accurate description, but supposing you’re truly in some kind of psychosis (and frankly it does strike me that way, to an extent, but then so do a lot of people) then I don’t know that ignoring it and carrying on talking is really the best approach. [29/9/23, 1:49:20 pm] Oli: He kicked him out after what was probably a day and a half. Homeless and with money to spend on what killed him (or didn’t help him; maybe it made him better mentally… pleasure). [29/9/23, 1:49:39 pm] Oli: I don’t think I’m permanently going through ‘psychosis’ 🤣 [29/9/23, 1:50:00 pm] Oli: I should be sectioned if that were the case. Though this morning was very bloody odd. [29/9/23, 1:50:17 pm] Sam: There seems to be some understanding of our responsibilities to each other, in other words. But it seems to be some sort of abstract world in your head that you are not part of. And you go on about other people’s turpitude or vice or venality or whatever, but I am utterly lost at how you see yourself. I just can’t keep listening to this shit. I class “I will think about morality” with “I will text Ryan”. I have no idea what you mean or what is in your head when you say these things, but it’s clearly not the same thing that’s in your head when you say “I will go to Henley” or “I will sleep with Timmy” or fuck knows what. [29/9/23, 1:50:19 pm] Oli: I don’t think that it’s something I have, is what I mean! [29/9/23, 1:51:22 pm] Sam: And, again, it doesn’t really matter because it doesn’t matter to me whether you’re ’thinking about morality’ or not, but I say this because … fuck, I don’t even know any more really [29/9/23, 1:54:03 pm] Sam: Well, it’s one or the other, psychosis or quite-deliberate indifference. Neither seems entirely acceptable to you. Hence this ‘double bind’ that you’re in. [29/9/23, 1:54:23 pm] Oli: Oh you mean the attitude causing that, yes. [29/9/23, 1:55:13 pm] Sam: To my mind this is the paradigmatic case of moral culpability in more or less every aspect, and I’m tired of writing ‘mild mental illness’ permission slips for every single fucking person who’s in a position to do something so they can feel better about going to fucking Henley. [29/9/23, 1:56:13 pm] Sam: And I suspect what I say does have some wider effect in feeling like it’s giving support for people’s behaviour, and I am deeply uncomfortable with that because it is clearly insupportable. [29/9/23, 2:00:35 pm] Oli: Do you think that is all that’s required for someone to feel exculpated? Maybe it is. ‎[29/9/23, 2:01:13 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 2:02:40 pm] Sam: Well, you seem quite untroubled the rest of the time! It doesn’t seem like there’s a lot of unprompted soul-searching going on. (But maybe your soul was in Henley or Ascot or Goodwood or one of these funny places. Good to be sure! It’s always where you least expect it!) [29/9/23, 2:07:07 pm] Sam: Can you really imagine someone who believes the things you profess to believe? Can you imagine that such a person would be doing this? [29/9/23, 2:08:26 pm] Oli: I learnt from an early age to stand apart (become introspected) and I think it was a good survival strategy. Be detached I mean when I say ‘stand apart’. I do think that perhaps I have let it become too normal an aspect of my life (or indeed my life as a whole). Filling my life with objectively meaningless, fleeting pursuits is a manifestation of this. [29/9/23, 2:09:39 pm] Sam: I don’t know if you maybe do believe it in some sense, or think it would be noble to believe, but it is clearly not what actually motivates you. I’m sorry, this is what I meant at the outset. This is too longstanding, too hugely overdetermined to simply try to talk it away. [29/9/23, 2:10:10 pm] Oli: I also have, I’m told and I think that’s right, an antiquated sense of humour somewhat similar to Schadenfreude, another manifestation of it. And I love taking the piss out of people in those contexts, how psycopathic that may make me sound. It has perhaps gone a bit (or a lot) too far. [29/9/23, 2:10:28 pm] Oli: The Romans I think had this sense of humour in artwork and such. [29/9/23, 2:12:09 pm] Oli: It is probably the thinking it would be noble to believe because I can’t quite bring myself to believe it. I don’t think this is out of bad morals as such but just neglected or misplaced morals. [29/9/23, 2:12:10 pm] Sam: You certainly have Schadenfreude, haha, and the rest is Schadenindifference and packing peanuts. [29/9/23, 2:12:51 pm] Sam: Ok, no, that’s not strictly true, actually. The odd exception, like momentary sympathy for Ryan or Rupert (god rest his soul) or whoever else. [29/9/23, 2:13:19 pm] Oli: This momentary sympathy concept is an interesting point. [29/9/23, 2:13:28 pm] Sam: But then forgotten five minutes later and for any other human being. [29/9/23, 2:13:49 pm] Sam: And … I don’t know [29/9/23, 2:14:07 pm] Oli: I don’t think it’s as superficial as that. [29/9/23, 2:14:22 pm] Oli: There is a block in between the thought and the action. [29/9/23, 2:14:31 pm] Sam: I mean, try doing this but instead with ‘someone who wants to get along in a crowd of mildly empathetic human beings and also occasionally wants some way to feel superior’ [29/9/23, 2:15:23 pm] Sam: I mean, I’m painting with broad strokes and also being exceedingly harsh - well, exceeding normally acceptable social harshness, not exceeding what’s condign - but I think it’s instructive [29/9/23, 2:17:44 pm] Sam: The impression I get with you and Freddie is that you consider yourselves some kind of Ubermenschen, some privileged caste of philosopher kings that hand down obligations to others but get a reprieve yourselves on account of the tremendous evangelic value you bring by occasionally looking down on people [29/9/23, 2:17:53 pm] Oli: What exactly this is I would like to put a finger on. [29/9/23, 2:18:00 pm] Oli: Some apprehension. [29/9/23, 2:18:15 pm] Sam: To and on the very small extent and very few occasions that it troubles you at all [29/9/23, 2:18:44 pm] Sam: Ah, that’ll be the packing peanuts! [29/9/23, 2:18:44 pm] Oli: Good god! [29/9/23, 2:19:12 pm] Oli: This is an attitude common among the modern day Liberal party for example: [29/9/23, 2:19:17 pm] Sam: No in all seriousness I don’t think there’s a block [29/9/23, 2:19:28 pm] Oli: The paradox of tolerance and faux egalitarianism [29/9/23, 2:19:46 pm] Oli: I would hate to have such an attitude. [29/9/23, 2:20:12 pm] Oli: There are, I can see, implications of that attitude, and maybe even I do sometimes behave like that. [29/9/23, 2:20:22 pm] Sam: As I said the last time, I think you think ‘moral’ is some magic predicate that means ‘in compliance with these random rules that people, but not I, must follow’ [29/9/23, 2:20:49 pm] Sam: It doesn’t come out when talking about, for instance, your friend Nicholas, or about Slape, or about Kieran or whoever else [29/9/23, 2:21:05 pm] Oli: I don’t want to sound like a total lunatic making non-excuses but I must just get caught up and become adrift from reality. I’ve done it for as long as people can remember me. [29/9/23, 2:21:24 pm] Oli: A coping strategy maybe not contextualised and gone too far. [29/9/23, 2:21:26 pm] Sam: In those cases the description of their behaviour seems to be enough, seems to have some force [29/9/23, 2:22:02 pm] Sam: Well, mainly in this one particular way, though, isn’t it? [29/9/23, 2:22:41 pm] Sam: And that again doesn’t really sound less like an excuse and more like simply the paradigmatic example of callousness [29/9/23, 2:22:50 pm] Sam: Of guilt [29/9/23, 2:22:56 pm] Oli: I suppose this is a lot of what I am trying to say: you don’t really know me well enough, so it perhaps would look that way to you and there that’s the case closed. [29/9/23, 2:23:04 pm] Sam: (State, not emotion) [29/9/23, 2:23:46 pm] Oli: How would you possibly know what my general attitude is apart from what you’ve seen in very select interactions and experienced in very select conversations. [29/9/23, 2:23:48 pm] Sam: Honestly, yes. We’ve all got to come to some kind of conclusion, and that’s mine, somewhat qualified but not very. [29/9/23, 2:24:04 pm] Oli: It’s not a lacking picture of me in that respect but I think certainly not the full one. [29/9/23, 2:24:15 pm] Sam: I would question both ‘very’s, but that’s how. [29/9/23, 2:24:20 pm] Oli: I would be a non-entity if that were the case. My hubris likes to say I am nots [29/9/23, 2:24:38 pm] Oli: Well… [29/9/23, 2:25:08 pm] Oli: Damien McMullen and Alex Camm (he is a nice person in all honesty) and all of those people is not exactly a comprehensive social setting. [29/9/23, 2:25:40 pm] Sam: I don’t know what on earth you think I need! [29/9/23, 2:26:09 pm] Sam: You function, you go to events, you are conscious and just about normal enough to nurture friendships with a wide and varied pan-European range of aristocrats, and you don’t do anything else. [29/9/23, 2:26:14 pm] Oli: One plays up to the tone of the crowd. Maybe this is wrong (it is on proper a priori morals) [29/9/23, 2:26:43 pm] Oli: And the crowd you’ve seen me in has been generally very limited and what I would describe as mostly ridiculous homosexuals. [29/9/23, 2:26:47 pm] Sam: I like you and I think in some ways you are capable of more, but I’m not gonna let you get out of this with some hand waving bollocks about ‘maybe at night I’m Batman’ or whatever you’re saying. [29/9/23, 2:26:50 pm] Oli: Not trying to be offensive! 🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 2:27:11 pm] Oli: Working towards it. [29/9/23, 2:27:39 pm] Sam: I’m sorry, I’m not trying to be hurtful, but if you want my opinion, this is it [29/9/23, 2:27:49 pm] Oli: I do like isolating myself and reading philosophy if I don’t abuse my brain. [29/9/23, 2:28:14 pm] Sam: Most of the time. It varies somewhere within this range due to changing evidence and my naturally slightly oscillating mental state, but this is broadly it. [29/9/23, 2:28:46 pm] Oli: Not maybe at night I’m Batman LOL but just that I think there is no opportunity to be anything else in the contexts in which I have mostly met you. [29/9/23, 2:29:38 pm] Sam: Well, there is in the rest of your life. Oh come on, don’t do this. [29/9/23, 2:29:56 pm] Oli: True! But do you know the rest of my life? [29/9/23, 2:29:56 pm] Sam: If there were something else you would say it. You are more intelligent than this tripe. [29/9/23, 2:30:03 pm] Oli: I think that is the question I am trying to ask. [29/9/23, 2:30:13 pm] Sam: This is drifting into the arena of the slapian [29/9/23, 2:30:16 pm] Oli: Well I do have private moments of reading philosophy and writing thoughts on it. [29/9/23, 2:30:18 pm] Oli: LOL [29/9/23, 2:30:27 pm] Oli: He is too stupid to even think! [29/9/23, 2:30:37 pm] Oli: He must be really genuinely lost. [29/9/23, 2:30:54 pm] Oli: Thought allows me to escape into a realm of endless possibilities! [29/9/23, 2:30:59 pm] Oli: It’s very good for me. [29/9/23, 2:31:17 pm] Oli: Though it is a manifestation of my withdrawal from the REAL world. Of course. [29/9/23, 2:31:30 pm] Oli: I don’t want to make out that I am a superhero. Not at all. [29/9/23, 2:31:49 pm] Oli: Just that I am a more thoughtful person than you make out based on the interactions we have had in a context of mostly halfwits. [29/9/23, 2:32:06 pm] Sam: Sure, full of thought! [29/9/23, 2:32:19 pm] Sam: Full maybe only of thought [29/9/23, 2:32:34 pm] Sam: And grouse and plovers eggs and cocaine and whatever [29/9/23, 2:33:30 pm] Oli: I agree with the basis of your points. [29/9/23, 2:33:46 pm] Sam: I mean, what do you criticise other people for? What do you criticise ‘the world’ for? Most of the world is considerably less able to do anything, and you are, and you don’t, and I can’t force you but I can bloody well stop accepting this shit. [29/9/23, 2:34:30 pm] Sam: My god I don’t know if I’m some sort of messiah or something but I am so fucking tired of every single ridiculously privileged person having some kind of magical mild mental illness that specifically and only precludes them from doing anything non-selfish. [29/9/23, 2:34:48 pm] Oli: I do conceive of you as messiah-like in these attitudes. [29/9/23, 2:34:59 pm] Sam: Some sort of messiah in the sense that people seem to come to me for absolution [29/9/23, 2:35:23 pm] Sam: I mean, god, you and everyone else understand perfectly well what’s to be done [29/9/23, 2:35:24 pm] Oli: I’ve never thought about that. It does seem to be very convenient. [29/9/23, 2:35:36 pm] Sam: The mental illness in question is usually laziness and indifference and gluttony [29/9/23, 2:36:01 pm] Sam: Conditions which oddly seem to affect everyone else but never oneself (here for once I don’t mean you specifically but Conventional Man) [29/9/23, 2:36:21 pm] Oli: Is this a regular occurrence? [29/9/23, 2:36:26 pm] Sam: I can’t stand the pseudo-psychiatric jargon that’s sprung up around this stuff [29/9/23, 2:36:35 pm] Oli: Does it happen by coincidence or do you have a reputation as the arbiter of these things? [29/9/23, 2:36:56 pm] Sam: My god, more ink has been spilled on this bloody question than by Hegel and Schelling and Fichte combined [29/9/23, 2:37:38 pm] Sam: I dunno, I guess I have a reputation as someone who is troubled by suffering (not to say I’m always perfect either, and things sometimes intervene and complicate stuff, but I _am_ troubled) [29/9/23, 2:38:15 pm] Sam: And you are not and Freddie is not (except, in both cases, when it’s in your field of vision, or on certain such occasions) and I’m just tired of it all [29/9/23, 2:38:50 pm] Sam: If you can’t be judged by your considered long-term behaviour then what on earth can you be judged by? [29/9/23, 2:39:36 pm] Sam: Sorry, I don’t want to be angry or harsh, but I am just tired [29/9/23, 2:39:42 pm] Oli: I do think it is particularly human to fall short so frequently. [29/9/23, 2:40:07 pm] Sam: I hear it enough from people who need to work and genuinely don’t have much time, and in them I can grudgingly excuse it (tho not in myself) [29/9/23, 2:40:34 pm] Sam: And then I go to all the rich man-about-town types, and what would you know, they’re suddenly incapacitated and helpless [29/9/23, 2:40:58 pm] Sam: Like capsized tortoises [29/9/23, 2:41:29 pm] Oli: And this shouldn’t be used as a get out clause. ‘I’m not a saint, sorry!’ But I think it’s more complicated than that. [29/9/23, 2:41:43 pm] Sam: If you want to talk Christianity [29/9/23, 2:41:50 pm] Sam: It needs must be that offences come [29/9/23, 2:41:59 pm] Sam: But woe to that man by whom the offence cometh [29/9/23, 2:42:09 pm] Oli: Yes you do strike me as a messiah like Christian. [29/9/23, 2:42:22 pm] Oli: This is the attitude that we are all supposed to have but don’t. [29/9/23, 2:42:30 pm] Oli: For this reason. [29/9/23, 2:42:36 pm] Oli: To me at least. [29/9/23, 2:42:46 pm] Oli: How do we deal with this? [29/9/23, 2:43:05 pm] Sam: I’m just trying to hold you and others to your own moral standards! [29/9/23, 2:43:08 pm] Oli: Ostracise those who don’t comply? Good luck; it’ll be the other way around. I’m sure this is why you are so troubled. [29/9/23, 2:43:15 pm] Oli: Hypocrisy is rife. [29/9/23, 2:43:41 pm] Sam: You have a good community of shitty people, so this is unlikely [29/9/23, 2:43:42 pm] Oli: You don’t seem to want to accept this. Or acknowledge it. [29/9/23, 2:43:51 pm] Oli: Not every individual finds it easy to be so Good. [29/9/23, 2:43:57 pm] Oli: Maybe to you this sounds ridiculously wrong. [29/9/23, 2:44:03 pm] Oli: I think there is something to it. [29/9/23, 2:44:10 pm] Sam: Well you find it very easy to be laboriously selfish [29/9/23, 2:44:18 pm] Sam: I mean, I dunno what to say. I’m sorry. [29/9/23, 2:44:17 pm] Oli: Yes. [29/9/23, 2:44:21 pm] Oli: As do many. [29/9/23, 2:44:25 pm] Sam: You are feeling what it feels like to be the bad guy. [29/9/23, 2:44:45 pm] Oli: Yes you can’t understand this part of the world, which is the tyranny of the majority (or perhaps the amplified minority). [29/9/23, 2:44:47 pm] Sam: Or the indifferent rich from a Dickens book. [29/9/23, 2:44:49 pm] Oli: Or don’t want to. [29/9/23, 2:45:00 pm] Oli: This is the basis for your trouble in this respect probably. [29/9/23, 2:45:16 pm] Sam: I’m a bit lost at what you’re now saying [29/9/23, 2:45:36 pm] Oli: Not every individual is privileged enough to act so selflessly. [29/9/23, 2:45:44 pm] Oli: I think it is quite a challenge. [29/9/23, 2:46:01 pm] Oli: Yes there is a lacuna in your thought process on this subject. [29/9/23, 2:46:14 pm] Sam: Well, you are [29/9/23, 2:46:14 pm] Oli: You seem to be like a Messiah just touching down from Heaven. [29/9/23, 2:46:29 pm] Sam: Nowhere close, sadly [29/9/23, 2:46:32 pm] Oli: Somehow unaware of the struggles of existence. [29/9/23, 2:46:42 pm] Oli: And yes mostly it boils down to it being easier to be selfish. [29/9/23, 2:46:44 pm] Sam: Hahahahaha no, not a fucking chance [29/9/23, 2:46:49 pm] Sam: Don’t even try that [29/9/23, 2:46:54 pm] Oli: But for different reasons for different individuals. [29/9/23, 2:47:08 pm] Oli: Oh I was too vague in that description I think. [29/9/23, 2:47:40 pm] Oli: But unaware of the struggles of individual minds somewhat and why people just cop out or fall short. [29/9/23, 2:48:11 pm] Oli: I think there is a difference between thoughtless copping out and an inability, or feeling of one, mentally to change. [29/9/23, 2:48:18 pm] Oli: Neither are Good. [29/9/23, 2:48:21 pm] Oli: But it’s HARD [29/9/23, 2:48:28 pm] Oli: We aren’t just Good at the clock of a finger. [29/9/23, 2:48:44 pm] Oli: Though I agree that it’s much easier then we make it out to be. [29/9/23, 2:49:00 pm] Oli: I think what I am trying to suggest is that life can get in the way. How? I want to know. [29/9/23, 2:49:13 pm] Oli: You have an overriding absolutist attitude to this question. [29/9/23, 2:49:21 pm] Sam: You aren’t just bad at the click of a finger either, but you persevere! [29/9/23, 2:49:21 pm] Oli: That is the morally right attitude [29/9/23, 2:49:52 pm] Sam: Yes, that it is wrong to be grotesquely and lastingly selfish and indifferent to suffering [29/9/23, 2:50:01 pm] Sam: Spare me the adjectives, respectfully [29/9/23, 2:50:18 pm] Oli: Yes I am not sure it is bad bad. I think there are gradations and it’s about quality of will. You could say that someone who doesn’t think about the others has a bad quality of will and I know you don [29/9/23, 2:50:22 pm] Oli: Do* [29/9/23, 2:50:35 pm] Oli: To my mind it’s not the same as actively thinking ‘fuck those people’ [29/9/23, 2:50:36 pm] Sam: Having spent the morning going on about your privilege I am not going to let you waste my afternoon going on about your poverty [29/9/23, 2:51:12 pm] Oli: OK. But it is this absolutist attitude, this Mother Teresa like attitude, which I think very few of us can reach. [29/9/23, 2:52:02 pm] Oli: You are right that it’s a poor excuse. But why do people make these excuses? I don’t think it’s just black and white. [29/9/23, 2:52:21 pm] Sam: Not of yourself you don’t [29/9/23, 2:52:39 pm] Oli: What? [29/9/23, 2:52:48 pm] Sam: For others you seem to be quite alright with a more ‘absolutist’ or … whatever the fuck this rubbish is [29/9/23, 2:52:53 pm] Sam: I can’t be bothered, respectfully [29/9/23, 2:53:14 pm] Sam: The problem is not something that is going to be resolved by discussion, because you are perfectly capable of forming these judgements [29/9/23, 2:53:17 pm] Sam: But not of yourslef [29/9/23, 2:53:22 pm] Sam: Or yourself even [29/9/23, 2:53:28 pm] Oli: I can understand that for you it is riddled with complications which preclude you from understanding the possibility of other complications. [29/9/23, 2:53:56 pm] Sam: Ah yes now the mystical handwavey nuance claptrap comes out [29/9/23, 2:53:57 pm] Oli: You are right about the morality when it hits home. [29/9/23, 2:54:00 pm] Sam: Dusted off [29/9/23, 2:54:06 pm] Oli: Not at all! [29/9/23, 2:54:24 pm] Sam: To fend off another attack of moral compunction [29/9/23, 2:54:29 pm] Oli: I just think it’s good to try and at least consider other points. But it’s a win-win situation for you. [29/9/23, 2:54:33 pm] Oli: You are Godlike [29/9/23, 2:54:39 pm] Oli: You probably are in this respect. [29/9/23, 2:54:42 pm] Oli: Most aren’t. [29/9/23, 2:54:47 pm] Oli: Hello problems. [29/9/23, 2:54:55 pm] Sam: I am again just asking you to do fucking anything [29/9/23, 2:54:55 pm] Oli: They surely should be. [29/9/23, 2:54:58 pm] Sam: Jesus lord almighty [29/9/23, 2:54:58 pm] Oli: How do we do it? [29/9/23, 2:55:03 pm] Oli: We don’t do it like this. [29/9/23, 2:55:09 pm] Sam: If you saw some of the things that people do with far less [29/9/23, 2:55:17 pm] Sam: The widow’s mote and all that [29/9/23, 2:55:27 pm] Oli: This [29/9/23, 2:55:41 pm] Oli: It is awful. I truly agree with you. [29/9/23, 2:55:53 pm] Oli: And I am part of the problem in that respect, yes. [29/9/23, 2:55:59 pm] Sam: You take some money or food or whatever else, and you give it to people who need it more than your coke dealer and bald anencephalic friend [29/9/23, 2:56:19 pm] Oli: This is true. [29/9/23, 2:56:30 pm] Oli: It is just easier to get stuck in a selfish trap. [29/9/23, 2:56:35 pm] Oli: Much easier. [29/9/23, 2:56:45 pm] Oli: And hard to get on the right path. [29/9/23, 2:56:55 pm] Oli: The right path always tends to have few walkers! [29/9/23, 2:57:02 pm] Sam: I had a conversation about abortion the other day and I noticed it there too. People love to change the topic from ‘is this wrong?’ to ‘please explain exactly how everyone must be compelled not to do wrong, with no cost and perfect success and no unintended consequences’. [29/9/23, 2:57:14 pm] Sam: Like, when on earth did that become the question? [29/9/23, 2:57:14 pm] Oli: Don’t you register this? You must do which is why you’re pissed off. [29/9/23, 2:57:29 pm] Oli: How do we get more to be right? [29/9/23, 2:57:32 pm] Sam: Yes. Most of them have somewhat arguable reasons. [29/9/23, 2:57:36 pm] Oli: Not by writing them off and ostracising them. [29/9/23, 2:57:47 pm] Oli: Actually this is where you are not Messiah like. [29/9/23, 2:57:56 pm] Oli: Christ would persevere with these cop outs like me. [29/9/23, 2:58:04 pm] Oli: It’s very hard! [29/9/23, 2:58:26 pm] Oli: I should read the Bible. [29/9/23, 2:58:27 pm] Sam: I have, and am. Perseverance is different from letting you repeatedly fob me off, which is precisely what you have done. [29/9/23, 2:58:57 pm] Sam: And I’m obviously not fucking christ anyway, dear god, you’d think I were asking you to do anything much ‎ [29/9/23, 2:59:02 pm] Oli: No I am trying to understand it from my various subjective viewpoints. [29/9/23, 2:59:21 pm] Oli: It maybe comes across as fobbing off because anything against the liturgy is treason [29/9/23, 2:59:29 pm] Sam: Do you think you could just give out sandwiches? [29/9/23, 3:00:08 pm] Oli: Yes I agree that it isn’t directly right but it is probably a valid meta ethical question. [29/9/23, 3:00:21 pm] Oli: Oh yes I’ve done that a lot. [29/9/23, 3:00:27 pm] Oli: Put £300 into the palms of tramps. [29/9/23, 3:00:45 pm] Oli: You forget these. [29/9/23, 3:01:06 pm] Oli: I don’t do it all the time, that is true, but when the opportunity comes my way I try. [29/9/23, 3:01:13 pm] Sam: I mean, I thought I was asking why you can’t spend money on helping people you say you care about. And now all of a sudden we’re engaging the services of the fucking polyphonic witanagemot! [29/9/23, 3:01:49 pm] Sam: My impression is somewhat less than all the time, yes [29/9/23, 3:02:49 pm] Oli: Do you do it all the time? [29/9/23, 3:02:55 pm] Oli: Maybe you do. [29/9/23, 3:03:09 pm] Oli: Do you actively make it part of your life? [29/9/23, 3:03:16 pm] Oli: You probably do bloody hell. [29/9/23, 3:03:25 pm] Sam: There’s no point in my answering that question. Or if you can explain what it adds, I’m happy to. [29/9/23, 3:03:25 pm] Oli: This is Good! [29/9/23, 3:03:42 pm] Oli: Humanity isn’t like that. [29/9/23, 3:04:57 pm] Oli: In theory, yes, but you seldom grant me an audience. [29/9/23, 3:05:22 pm] Sam: Oh stop wasting my time with this shit [29/9/23, 3:05:35 pm] Sam: I have spoken to you for far more of my life than I arguably should have [29/9/23, 3:07:00 pm] Oli: Not that I am desperate to commune with you, but you, maybe quite rightly, never found anything worthy there. [29/9/23, 3:07:25 pm] Oli: And I suspect it annoys you greatly when I ask naively why Y is Good. [29/9/23, 3:07:33 pm] Oli: That is just my mind. [29/9/23, 3:08:02 pm] Sam: I feel quite annoyed at this waste of my time when I have quite serious stuff to be attending to [29/9/23, 3:08:45 pm] Oli: I apologise for that, but I suppose that most of humanity is just not up to scratch. [29/9/23, 3:10:02 pm] Oli: I shall stop wasting your time on this matter because it is clearly circular. I should not ask you to give me guidance in this field because the mental framework I have is clearly in battle with yours. My problem not yours if we accept objective a priori morality. [29/9/23, 3:11:35 pm] Sam: I don’t need to accept a priori or a posteriori frameworks of verbiage. I just don’t like people who are indifferent to the suffering of others. That is all. [29/9/23, 3:11:47 pm] Oli: Yes it was a somewhat tasteless joke about Stella drinking and gopniki. [29/9/23, 3:12:00 pm] Oli: Not trying to paint myself as a saviour at all! [29/9/23, 3:12:39 pm] Oli: I don’t conceive of myself as indifferent. [29/9/23, 3:12:46 pm] Oli: I will just get the definition of it. [29/9/23, 3:12:51 pm] Oli: I might be [29/9/23, 3:12:54 pm] Sam: I can see that [29/9/23, 3:13:06 pm] Oli: Oh I see. [29/9/23, 3:13:21 pm] Sam: Hence the double bind and hence this directionless frustration, as with Freddie [29/9/23, 3:13:24 pm] Oli: Yes you would say that I have no particular interest or sympathy because I don’t act on ir. [29/9/23, 3:13:30 pm] Oli: I think it’s appalling! [29/9/23, 3:13:42 pm] Oli: There is just a block between my thoughts and actions. [29/9/23, 3:13:47 pm] Sam: Aimer, c’est agir [29/9/23, 3:14:02 pm] Oli: Not just him. Most of the western world. [29/9/23, 3:14:57 pm] Sam: No, this particular kind of stopped-up rage and contempt I think is very distinct to you two (and surely others but certainly not most people) [29/9/23, 3:15:51 pm] Oli: It epitomises most of rhe Conservative Party. [29/9/23, 3:16:47 pm] Oli: He is the opposite of contempt. He has a faux liberal egalitarian streak, as is socially acceptable for anyone who can’t be bothered to deviate. [29/9/23, 3:17:02 pm] Sam: And I think it is that double bind of on the one hand being committed to appearing to believe in helping the poor (for various reasons: to highlight your fashionable disregard for worldly status, to hold over people’s heads occasionally, etc) and on the other hand not actually giving a fuck about doing it and preferring to throw money at people and whatever the fuck else I gather from Freddie etc [29/9/23, 3:17:06 pm] Oli: I’d like to think that I have no contempt either (that would be very Victorian and Dickensian). [29/9/23, 3:17:27 pm] Sam: (And yes I’m sure I could hear the same about him from you, but it wouldn’t really change anything) [29/9/23, 3:17:39 pm] Oli: I don’t though. [29/9/23, 3:18:22 pm] Sam: I don’t mean for the poor, I mean for anyone who questions this knot at the heart of your character, or causes you to question it [29/9/23, 3:18:22 pm] Oli: I post myself telling people to fuck off and being appallingly behaved for some deeply fucked up reason that is, again, I think, or would like to, more complex than just ‘what a Cunt’. [29/9/23, 3:18:31 pm] Oli: But of course I would say that because it’s a convenient get out! [29/9/23, 3:18:36 pm] Sam: No, to the poor you’re merely callous [29/9/23, 3:18:41 pm] Sam: Not contemptuous [29/9/23, 3:18:44 pm] Sam: That would be too far [29/9/23, 3:18:55 pm] Sam: And others besides the poor of course [29/9/23, 3:18:58 pm] Sam: Animals, etc [29/9/23, 3:19:05 pm] Sam: I dunno [29/9/23, 3:19:32 pm] Oli: He has a sanctimonious charitable dinner party attitude. [29/9/23, 3:19:38 pm] Oli: I reject such attitudes. [29/9/23, 3:19:47 pm] Oli: I don’t even make a pretence. [29/9/23, 3:19:52 pm] Sam: I am dealing with a hell of a lot of stress now for various reasons and I have put it aside to try to talk to you but I can’t deal with any more posturing [29/9/23, 3:19:59 pm] Sam: It is ALL posturing [29/9/23, 3:20:07 pm] Sam: Supporting and rejecting philosophies and attitudes [29/9/23, 3:20:16 pm] Sam: Engaging schizophrenic choirs of perspectives [29/9/23, 3:20:18 pm] Sam: Etc [29/9/23, 3:20:20 pm] Oli: Maybe that is right. [29/9/23, 3:20:31 pm] Oli: Probably because the questioners always pick the wrong register! [29/9/23, 3:20:43 pm] Oli: Their anger at the unjust world tends to do this. [29/9/23, 3:20:55 pm] Oli: I am sure this sounds contemptuous. [29/9/23, 3:21:00 pm] Oli: But it can’t be a one way street. [29/9/23, 3:21:08 pm] Oli: I am sorry. [29/9/23, 3:21:56 pm] Oli: As individuals we all have our own crosses to bear which can preclude what is seen to be ‘normal’ behaviour. [29/9/23, 3:22:05 pm] Oli: More people should register this. [29/9/23, 3:22:47 pm] Oli: This is probably my main point on this subject. I am sure it is thoroughly selfish. [29/9/23, 3:22:57 pm] Sam: No, I’m not asking for an apology, I’m just asking for less tripe, to be totally totally blunt about it [29/9/23, 3:23:04 pm] Sam: Yes that’s why I rape toddlers every day [29/9/23, 3:23:09 pm] Sam: I’m sure you understand [29/9/23, 3:23:10 pm] Oli: We sometimes must be selfish to better ourselves! [29/9/23, 3:23:15 pm] Oli: As you want to do now. [29/9/23, 3:23:34 pm] Sam: And some of us far more than sometimes [29/9/23, 3:23:53 pm] Oli: That is a particularly burdensome cross which paedophiles bear. [29/9/23, 3:24:26 pm] Oli: Yes. Most of us I would say. [29/9/23, 3:24:48 pm] Oli: I’d say that it is one of the biggest problems in our culture. [29/9/23, 3:24:56 pm] Sam: Pleased to make your acquaintance! Coats in this room! Etc [29/9/23, 3:25:15 pm] Oli: I thought that I was so being. [29/9/23, 3:25:20 pm] Sam: Yes, the rest of them say it too [29/9/23, 3:25:26 pm] Oli: That is how I express it. [29/9/23, 3:25:34 pm] Sam: Veeery, very easy to say [29/9/23, 3:25:36 pm] Sam: Fun too [29/9/23, 3:25:44 pm] Oli: It’s not an excuse for their behaviour. [29/9/23, 3:26:07 pm] Oli: A moral excuse to be specific. [29/9/23, 3:26:23 pm] Sam: Left, right, everyone agrees that the rest of humanity are neglecting their duties [29/9/23, 3:26:34 pm] Oli: Ah thought this was replying to the paedo point. [29/9/23, 3:26:37 pm] Oli: It works for both. [29/9/23, 3:27:05 pm] Sam: I like the paedo point! [29/9/23, 3:27:12 pm] Oli: Yes. My point, which you probably don’t want to answer; how can you you may say, is what do we do? [29/9/23, 3:27:23 pm] Sam: I wonder if I can come up with any other stuff that you actually think matters [29/9/23, 3:27:23 pm] Oli: You have no answer other than they are bad and go to Hell. [29/9/23, 3:27:37 pm] Oli: I think this does matter. [29/9/23, 3:27:38 pm] Sam: I’ve told you [29/9/23, 3:27:42 pm] Sam: So has JC [29/9/23, 3:27:45 pm] Oli: Someone should start a think tank. [29/9/23, 3:27:50 pm] Sam: Sell that thou hast and give to the poor [29/9/23, 3:27:50 pm] Oli: Give out sandwiches [29/9/23, 3:27:53 pm] Oli: OK [29/9/23, 3:27:58 pm] Oli: But people don’t do that off the cuff [29/9/23, 3:28:00 pm] Sam: And come and follow me [29/9/23, 3:28:05 pm] Oli: How do we then convince them to do it? [29/9/23, 3:28:07 pm] Sam: And then thou shalt have treasures in heaven [29/9/23, 3:28:07 pm] Sam: Etc [29/9/23, 3:28:11 pm] Sam: But not really the last two [29/9/23, 3:28:23 pm] Sam: Yes, so that’s the trick: do it [29/9/23, 3:28:28 pm] Oli: Sadly I suspect this is a desire which you will take to the grave. [29/9/23, 3:28:39 pm] Oli: I oddly think you are right but can’t bring myself to do it. [29/9/23, 3:28:46 pm] Oli: We are easier as pigs in our faeces. [29/9/23, 3:28:49 pm] Sam: Have you got bread? [29/9/23, 3:29:03 pm] Oli: We cannot live by bread alone… [29/9/23, 3:29:06 pm] Oli: But by every word! [29/9/23, 3:29:18 pm] Sam: Well, bread is a good start [29/9/23, 3:29:22 pm] Sam: Words of the Lord can come next [29/9/23, 3:29:39 pm] Oli: Christianity is very good at providing justifications for the shit world. [29/9/23, 3:30:00 pm] Oli: We have lost that now and will tear each other apart [29/9/23, 3:30:09 pm] Sam: Well, the guy was very very clear [29/9/23, 3:30:09 pm] Oli: As you and I are proving [29/9/23, 3:30:21 pm] Sam: I can sympathise with him [29/9/23, 3:30:23 pm] Oli: Too clear for us mortals [29/9/23, 3:30:41 pm] Oli: The lacuna in your solution is how do we effect this. [29/9/23, 3:30:46 pm] Sam: Well, for a few hundred years it was ok but then the rot set in [29/9/23, 3:30:46 pm] Oli: ‘Just do it’. [29/9/23, 3:30:48 pm] Sam: Anyway [29/9/23, 3:30:55 pm] Oli: Affect [29/9/23, 3:30:56 pm] Oli: Maybe [29/9/23, 3:30:59 pm] Sam: Bread, butter, cheese, maybe some lettuce [29/9/23, 3:31:09 pm] Sam: A knife, though you can get pre-sliced bread [29/9/23, 3:31:18 pm] Sam: Maybe some plastic bags [29/9/23, 3:31:19 pm] Oli: Yes how do we make people get it into their heads to get off their arses? [29/9/23, 3:31:25 pm] Oli: They will just proverbially change the channel. [29/9/23, 3:31:36 pm] Sam: Well thank you for demonstrating [29/9/23, 3:31:44 pm] Oli: I do not want to do it. [29/9/23, 3:31:46 pm] Sam: I mean, doing it is a start [29/9/23, 3:31:50 pm] Oli: I think it is awful. [29/9/23, 3:32:00 pm] Oli: Do not want to be a bad person. [29/9/23, 3:32:06 pm] Sam: And then we can engage in this mythic exercise of proselytising with the bread and fishes etc [29/9/23, 3:32:06 pm] Oli: Sadly it’s the easy route. [29/9/23, 3:32:41 pm] Sam: I am going to have a nervous breakdown if this carries on [29/9/23, 3:32:55 pm] Sam: Respectfully, I think I’ve made my point [29/9/23, 3:32:59 pm] Oli: I am in the odd position, like so many, of entirely agreeing with your desired solutions but finding it sadly unrealistic. [29/9/23, 3:33:05 pm] Sam: I can’t spend my day waffling around it [29/9/23, 3:33:09 pm] Sam: Just fucking do something [29/9/23, 3:33:22 pm] Sam: Then worry about the project of converting the entire rest of the world later [29/9/23, 3:33:25 pm] Oli: I think the Bible agrees and makes many solutions for it. The celestial city [29/9/23, 3:33:34 pm] Sam: And with the benefit of actually believing in and practising it yourself [29/9/23, 3:33:43 pm] Sam: If I must engage with this argument then there ya go [29/9/23, 3:34:02 pm] Oli: Firstly one has to be organised in oneself. Secure in oneself. [29/9/23, 3:34:14 pm] Oli: It’s a luxury to just do it. [29/9/23, 3:34:23 pm] Sam: I mean, are you going to convert the entire world to going to Henley? [29/9/23, 3:34:23 pm] Oli: It would be marvellous. [29/9/23, 3:34:29 pm] Sam: This is pathetic, come on, look at yourself [29/9/23, 3:34:33 pm] Sam: Ok [29/9/23, 3:34:33 pm] Oli: Haha Henley is a comedic farce. [29/9/23, 3:34:34 pm] Sam: Satis [29/9/23, 3:34:51 pm] Oli: I see your points here. ‎[29/9/23, 3:35:02 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 3:35:08 pm] Oli: I agree that this point is a waste of your time. [29/9/23, 3:35:10 pm] Sam: Hope it was a good one! [29/9/23, 3:35:27 pm] Oli: Not as good as some years. It’s gone downhill. [29/9/23, 3:36:14 pm] Oli: A good example of what happens when British hubris is a pastiche of itself. [29/9/23, 3:36:59 pm] Oli: Ecclesiastes is perhaps one of the best Biblical books. A time do reap, sow, gather… [29/9/23, 3:37:04 pm] Oli: To* [29/9/23, 3:37:21 pm] Oli: Yes I shall not trivialise this any further! [29/9/23, 3:37:52 pm] Sam: I have seen servants upon horses, and princes walking as servants upon the earth [29/9/23, 3:37:57 pm] Oli: It is a problem with me (just as it is for the rest of the people who have this mental block). [29/9/23, 3:37:58 pm] Sam: I leave you to figure out which is which [29/9/23, 3:38:20 pm] Sam: Or, as I prefer to call it, self-satisfied posturing hypocritical indifference [29/9/23, 3:38:24 pm] Sam: To be perfectly blunt [29/9/23, 3:38:37 pm] Oli: Most of the humans created in God’s wonderful image! [29/9/23, 3:39:34 pm] Oli: That’s another way of putting it. I think that paradoxically only serves to amplify it, rather than tame it. [29/9/23, 3:39:43 pm] Sam: Even with my low expectations I have to say I am disappointed that you so far appear to accept this lugubrious bollocks from yourself [29/9/23, 3:39:48 pm] Oli: The problem is in the method of conversion. [29/9/23, 3:40:07 pm] Oli: I am also disappointed. [29/9/23, 3:40:08 pm] Sam: I don’t know whether to be impressed that you can convince yourself or shocked that you can be convinced [29/9/23, 3:40:22 pm] Oli: I hope that I will one day live in the world but I have never. [29/9/23, 3:40:56 pm] Sam: Just keep this in mind the next time you’re inveighing against the rest of the world [29/9/23, 3:41:34 pm] Sam: You have potential and there are things I like about you but I am despondent at this point in trying to make you fucking people care [29/9/23, 3:41:43 pm] Oli: I should. What I think it says is that there is a moral potential. [29/9/23, 3:42:41 pm] Oli: I always inveigh the world, hence why I remove myself from it. I can’t face it. [29/9/23, 3:42:55 pm] Sam: Good. They’ll find it delicious and very filling I’m sure. [29/9/23, 3:42:55 pm] Oli: I realise this is a catch-22 and I hope to get better at solving this. [29/9/23, 3:43:56 pm] Sam: It’s not a catch-22 so much as it’s a not-being-bothered-to-do-anything [29/9/23, 3:44:21 pm] Sam: Regardless of all the new neurological and psychiatric disorders you’ve discovered during this conversation [29/9/23, 3:44:34 pm] Sam: And the nerve block that you’ve had put in [29/9/23, 3:44:55 pm] Oli: I hope none. [29/9/23, 3:45:10 pm] Sam: If you want to see the problem, I think you know where to find it ‎ [29/9/23, 3:45:45 pm] Oli: You cannot understand that it’s not as easy as that. Or think that this attitude is a convenient get out (I can see it easily being one). [29/9/23, 3:45:59 pm] Oli: I am not that mad. [29/9/23, 3:46:11 pm] Sam: Dead lord almighty, you do plenty of things that are harder [29/9/23, 3:46:19 pm] Sam: I can give you fucking step by step instructions [29/9/23, 3:46:40 pm] Sam: “Take a left turn in 300 yards at the junction to Henley” and so forth [29/9/23, 3:46:41 pm] Oli: No I just think oversimplifying things is an insult to many individual’s contexts and struggles. [29/9/23, 3:46:57 pm] Sam: Well it’s a good thing I’m not oversimplifying things [29/9/23, 3:47:07 pm] Oli: Just do it! [29/9/23, 3:47:18 pm] Oli: No problem but your own laziness! Do it! [29/9/23, 3:47:31 pm] Sam: Now do ‘inventing bullshit vague handwavey unspecified nuance to excuse yourself from the things for which you regularly and happily (and should) condemn others’ [29/9/23, 3:47:41 pm] Oli: Haha brilliant. [29/9/23, 3:47:52 pm] Sam: I have seen all this fucking stuff far too many thousands of times before [29/9/23, 3:48:00 pm] Oli: I never wanted to be part of the world since the poor woman who brought me into it tried to sexually have her way with me. [29/9/23, 3:48:23 pm] Sam: Well, you’re fucking happy to be a part of it most of the time, it seems! [29/9/23, 3:48:26 pm] Oli: I consequently find it very hard to live a real life and be kind as a matter of fact [29/9/23, 3:48:30 pm] Oli: Haha if only [29/9/23, 3:48:42 pm] Oli: I am often very depressed when I think about the emptiness of it all [29/9/23, 3:48:45 pm] Sam: Just mainly the ‘fraternising with aristocrats’ bits [29/9/23, 3:48:56 pm] Sam: Not so much the ‘anything else’ bit [29/9/23, 3:49:01 pm] Oli: Why do you think I fill my life with meaningless clutter? [29/9/23, 3:49:08 pm] Oli: It is escaping from reality. [29/9/23, 3:49:18 pm] Oli: I do agree it has gone too far and I should somehow find a way out. [29/9/23, 3:49:24 pm] Oli: ‘Just do it!’ [29/9/23, 3:49:34 pm] Oli: Easier said than acted, Herr General [29/9/23, 3:49:39 pm] Sam: Yes, I don’t know how much clearer I can get [29/9/23, 3:49:47 pm] Sam: Do something for other people [29/9/23, 3:49:49 pm] Sam: Anything [29/9/23, 3:49:49 pm] Oli: ‘Stop inventing neurological disorders you privileged lazy idiot’ [29/9/23, 3:49:55 pm] Sam: Anything would be an improvement on this [29/9/23, 3:50:00 pm] Sam: And then you can further improve on that [29/9/23, 3:50:03 pm] Oli: I should’ve invented some! I might’ve got more sympathy 🤣 [29/9/23, 3:50:09 pm] Sam: Just, ya know, do what you expect others to do [29/9/23, 3:50:27 pm] Sam: In which context you are perfectly capable of performing that kind of reasoning [29/9/23, 3:50:30 pm] Sam: But mysteriously not now [29/9/23, 3:50:34 pm] Oli: Interesting [29/9/23, 3:50:40 pm] Oli: I am not sure exactly what my expectations are [29/9/23, 3:50:57 pm] Oli: I don’t think it’s quite like that [29/9/23, 3:51:03 pm] Sam: Well, you were shouting the other day about how fucked up the world was for not helping your friend Rupert [29/9/23, 3:51:20 pm] Oli: Yes this is a good example of a contradiction. [29/9/23, 3:51:22 pm] Sam: And you appeared to expect more of Nicholas than to give him a room for some time and £700 [29/9/23, 3:51:24 pm] Oli: I cannot explain it. [29/9/23, 3:51:38 pm] Oli: I disagree with you that it’s just my lazy selfishness [29/9/23, 3:51:40 pm] Sam: Good summary of this conversation [29/9/23, 3:51:48 pm] Oli: Which I think is also convenient [29/9/23, 3:51:50 pm] Sam: Right, yes, because it’s you [29/9/23, 3:51:55 pm] Oli: Haha [29/9/23, 3:52:09 pm] Oli: This is a good point you can’t really argue with that [29/9/23, 3:52:13 pm] Sam: When people are selfish, they see a big sign saying ‘selfish’ in their field of vision, or god knows what [29/9/23, 3:52:15 pm] Oli: But yes I’d say that [29/9/23, 3:53:01 pm] Oli: I do, you are right in that context, have moral expectations of others. [29/9/23, 3:53:02 pm] Sam: And it’s not at all like this process of inventing lazy specious bollocks to fob off the few marginally conscientious people you still want to fuck and then proceeding to do exactly as you please often involving vast social and mental effort [29/9/23, 3:53:12 pm] Sam: God [29/9/23, 3:53:18 pm] Oli: What is that? I am not sure I believe in active morality. Maybe reactive morality. [29/9/23, 3:53:20 pm] Sam: (Chap from the Bible) [29/9/23, 3:53:29 pm] Oli: I don’t know why this is but it’s probably the most convenient. [29/9/23, 3:53:57 pm] Sam: Yes, that would be it [29/9/23, 3:54:05 pm] Sam: If you could react by fucking doing something I should be much obliged [29/9/23, 3:54:09 pm] Sam: Christ [29/9/23, 3:54:16 pm] Sam: In nomine patris [29/9/23, 3:54:19 pm] Sam: Et filii [29/9/23, 3:54:23 pm] Sam: Et spiritus sancti [29/9/23, 3:54:34 pm] Sam: Etc [29/9/23, 3:55:02 pm] Sam: Look, im sorry, but this is the reality [29/9/23, 3:55:02 pm] Oli: Hm [29/9/23, 3:55:08 pm] Sam: And I _am_ sorry [29/9/23, 3:55:15 pm] Sam: I’m not happy about any of this [29/9/23, 3:55:41 pm] Oli: Yes that would be a good summary of selfishness. [29/9/23, 3:55:45 pm] Oli: I don’t want to be selfish [29/9/23, 3:55:49 pm] Sam: It’s pushing me closer to the bare bodkin [29/9/23, 3:56:02 pm] Sam: But I … god [29/9/23, 3:56:06 pm] Oli: I have often thought about these conversations and wondered what to do but I simply do not know what to say [29/9/23, 3:56:08 pm] Sam: Just …. anything [29/9/23, 3:56:18 pm] Oli: There is just a gap to an extent [29/9/23, 3:56:27 pm] Sam: Well, it’s more about doing than saying [29/9/23, 3:56:55 pm] Sam: (Obviously saying is doing, and fuck knows, there are ways you can do things by saying things, if you’re a therapist or 999 call handler, etc etc, but this is not relevant nuance really) [29/9/23, 3:56:55 pm] Oli: Very few people are actively moral in the way you prescribe. As I keep saying. This is not an excuse and would be fallacious but it’s not just my fault. [29/9/23, 3:57:34 pm] Oli: It is an easy reaction to problems and actually I think I am much better than many, some of whom don’t even have reactive morality. [29/9/23, 3:57:52 pm] Sam: I’m not conducting a demographic study, I’m asking how you justify spending your life on inane braindead frivolous bollocks with the result that people starve or freeze to death who otherwise would not have [29/9/23, 3:58:23 pm] Sam: I mean, dear god, how on earth is this a question [29/9/23, 3:58:52 pm] Sam: Most people don’t waste their lives doing coke and sitting around making lissencephalic comments with bald morons either [29/9/23, 3:58:54 pm] Oli: I could prevent a person from starving or freezing? [29/9/23, 3:59:03 pm] Oli: It would be a good start. [29/9/23, 3:59:20 pm] Sam: Yes, several hundred a month, at least [29/9/23, 3:59:27 pm] Oli: I agree that is highly abnormal. [29/9/23, 3:59:39 pm] Sam: For that month, but … well, it’s very dependent on the context [29/9/23, 3:59:48 pm] Oli: How? [29/9/23, 3:59:51 pm] Oli: Cram them in? [29/9/23, 3:59:55 pm] Sam: Cheapest way of saving a life is still malaria nets at about £2 with current exchange rates [29/9/23, 4:00:00 pm] Oli: I wish I had several hundred rooms! [29/9/23, 4:00:05 pm] Oli: Oh you mean money. [29/9/23, 4:00:07 pm] Sam: But that’s not technically starving or freezing [29/9/23, 4:00:21 pm] Sam: I meant people, several hundred people for the amount you spend [29/9/23, 4:00:21 pm] Oli: Yes I’ve often thought about that and been embarrassed that I don’t do it. [29/9/23, 4:01:02 pm] Sam: Starving I don’t know about - none of the charities I’m involved with are food things. No particular reason. Just happens to be less economical at the moment. [29/9/23, 4:01:27 pm] Sam: Actually that’s a lie, food banks I forgot about. [29/9/23, 4:03:25 pm] Sam: Actually there are food bank donation boxes in most supermarkets, certainly most Waitroses, and you could do a hell of a lot of good by just raiding the tinned food section, and throw in some toiletries and tampons (eugh but I gather they’re often few and, uh, far between), a few perishables, bread, tealights (I’ll explain), and some high-calorie long-life snacks. [29/9/23, 4:04:04 pm] Oli: This is a good polling and is relatively easy [29/9/23, 4:04:06 pm] Oli: Point [29/9/23, 4:04:10 pm] Oli: I should actually try that [29/9/23, 4:05:35 pm] Oli: I have too many people in my life who are wasting their days away on drug abuse and watching paint dry. [29/9/23, 4:05:41 pm] Oli: I find it very hard to solve [29/9/23, 4:05:56 pm] Sam: GivingWhatWeCan has breakdowns of charity efficiency. The lazy excuses that maybe worked 10 or 20 years ago don’t work now. Neglected tropical diseases in Africa and Asia are the most bang for your buck, but a hard sell since people don’t identify with blacks, so to help white people probabjly food banks are a good bet. Food banks are the one context in which ‘help those nearby first’ makes sense, bc it’s obv tremendously hard to send to those abroad (tho increasingly when doing so charities prefer buying local food - with US aid they couldn’t do that for the longest time because absurdly the law required it to be US-made food). [29/9/23, 4:07:02 pm] Sam: Generally military rations are very good. I can’t remember what the US calls theirs but they are the gold standard in calorie dense cheap nutrition. Goddammit. Some 4-letter acronym. [29/9/23, 4:10:17 pm] Sam: Go read about Guinea worm disease, though, if you want a reason to care. Or helminths. Vast numbers of kids die young in agony just from walking barefoot through soil that’s contaminated by open defecation, i.e. a problem that could be solved by either toilets or shoes. It’s an outrage. And you - and to a large extent I - are the aristocrats in Dickens’ book running over the small child and not bothering to stop. It’s not anyone else. (As with all rich people, you can make a hue and cry that others are richer - I have had billionaires say that others have more billions - but we are the lucky of the world.) [29/9/23, 4:10:37 pm] Oli: Morally speaking my conduct is appalling. [29/9/23, 4:10:42 pm] Oli: I just feel trapped [29/9/23, 4:11:07 pm] Sam: Also HIV and tuberculosis. Malaria of course. Some good efforts with sterilised mosquitoes, fascinating and promising. Etc. Eating bushmeat and roadkill is a huge problem. [29/9/23, 4:11:50 pm] Sam: Aside from the weird slightly suspect qualifier ‘morally speaking’, I am very very thankful to hear that [29/9/23, 4:12:17 pm] Sam: Not because I want to extract some sort of apology but because it points to change [29/9/23, 4:12:25 pm] Sam: How so? ‎[29/9/23, 4:13:52 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 4:14:06 pm] Sam: Do! I usually am quite sceptical of national charities but food banks do incredible work and are far too often needed. [29/9/23, 4:14:52 pm] Sam: Trussell Trust are good, Waitrose also good, really anything good: https://www.trusselltrust.org/make-a-donation/ [29/9/23, 4:15:06 pm] Sam: Chippenham? What’s this? [29/9/23, 4:15:23 pm] Oli: Maybe it is called akrasia [29/9/23, 4:15:30 pm] Oli: Petrol station near me in West Country [29/9/23, 4:15:35 pm] Sam: Yes [29/9/23, 4:15:44 pm] Sam: Ah ok [29/9/23, 4:15:58 pm] Sam: Yeah I dunno, I dunno [29/9/23, 4:16:06 pm] Sam: To me it’s not terribly hard [29/9/23, 4:16:21 pm] Sam: I look at the homeless and then I look at your friends and I think ‘right, the homeless it is’ [29/9/23, 4:16:46 pm] Sam: (No offence, some albeit few exceptions in both groups, etc) [29/9/23, 4:17:23 pm] Oli: Hm [29/9/23, 4:17:28 pm] Oli: God [29/9/23, 4:18:07 pm] Oli: Because you think they’d be nicer? [29/9/23, 4:18:10 pm] Oli: Or out of charity? [29/9/23, 4:18:12 pm] Oli: Or both? [29/9/23, 4:18:43 pm] Sam: I think I’ve certainly enjoyed spending time with them more [29/9/23, 4:18:55 pm] Sam: There are exceptions, again, I don’t want to paint too broadly [29/9/23, 4:19:09 pm] Sam: I like Philip, and with Xander you are again very very lucky [29/9/23, 4:19:27 pm] Oli: And this is relatively easy to do. [29/9/23, 4:19:41 pm] Sam: (God knows how far his compassion extends, and people can be weird in this way, but he seems a very good soul) [29/9/23, 4:19:54 pm] Sam: To die young in agony? Or something else? [29/9/23, 4:19:54 pm] Oli: My point was sort of, it’s selfish, not wanting to put oneself out every day like a Messiah [29/9/23, 4:19:58 pm] Oli: I know that sounds awful [29/9/23, 4:20:00 pm] Oli: To donate online [29/9/23, 4:20:18 pm] Oli: Philip is quite selfish himself [29/9/23, 4:20:20 pm] Sam: I don’t think anyone is asking for you to become a prophet ! [29/9/23, 4:20:25 pm] Oli: More than I am in a way [29/9/23, 4:21:03 pm] Sam: Maybe - I don’t know him that well so I’m somewhat limited ‎[29/9/23, 4:21:11 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 4:21:16 pm] Sam: I’m not saying I would give him power of attorney ‎[29/9/23, 4:21:21 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 4:21:34 pm] Oli: I didn’t realise until recently one could look at monthly figures [29/9/23, 4:21:37 pm] Sam: I don’t quite get it, these transactions seem more or less ok [29/9/23, 4:21:44 pm] Oli: Oh they are the top [29/9/23, 4:21:47 pm] Sam: Oh I see, the overall amount [29/9/23, 4:21:48 pm] Oli: I just mean money in and money out [29/9/23, 4:21:51 pm] Oli: On rubbish [29/9/23, 4:22:19 pm] Sam: Yes, I know - if you get money monthly, I find it much nicer to give money away at the end of the month [29/9/23, 4:22:23 pm] Sam: I hate doing it at the start [29/9/23, 4:22:34 pm] Oli: I do it every week. [29/9/23, 4:22:41 pm] Oli: To criminals [29/9/23, 4:22:45 pm] Oli: More than every week sometimes [29/9/23, 4:22:51 pm] Sam: It’s nice because it means you’re less worried and (in my case) usually more generous (tho that might be me, because I’m a hermit) [29/9/23, 4:22:54 pm] Oli: Madness [29/9/23, 4:23:13 pm] Oli: Oh yes and restaurants [29/9/23, 4:23:16 pm] Oli: Another vacuous pastime [29/9/23, 4:23:24 pm] Sam: Yeah… This is what I meant by the Peter Hitchens stuff [29/9/23, 4:23:24 pm] Oli: It is quite depressing if one thinks about it [29/9/23, 4:23:43 pm] Oli: And the reasons I give for justifying it. I know it is all extreme. But I cannot explain it. ‎[29/9/23, 4:23:50 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 4:24:47 pm] Sam: It is bothering. And bothering is somewhat hard. And it competes with bothering to do other things that gratify you more. And that’s the decision to take. [29/9/23, 4:24:58 pm] Sam: But we are talking about this as if it’s insurmountable. [29/9/23, 4:25:18 pm] Oli: I do get trapped by these philosophical questions. Maybe it is all my mind can do to justify itself. [29/9/23, 4:25:23 pm] Oli: It happens on a daily basis. [29/9/23, 4:25:29 pm] Sam: Someone who struggled to monumentally to do these things would be like Buridan’s ass, would die of thirst not knowing which water bucket to go to. [29/9/23, 4:25:47 pm] Sam: You don’t seem terribly trapped [29/9/23, 4:25:58 pm] Oli: I create traps for myself in my mind. [29/9/23, 4:26:08 pm] Oli: I don't quite know how I manage it. [29/9/23, 4:26:15 pm] Sam: But these traps don’t prevent you from doing non-charitable things? [29/9/23, 4:26:26 pm] Oli: Yes because it's selfish. [29/9/23, 4:26:29 pm] Sam: (God I hate the word ‘charity’) [29/9/23, 4:26:39 pm] Sam: So they’re kind of selflessness traps [29/9/23, 4:26:57 pm] Sam: Traps that specifically trouble you when you consider helping others [29/9/23, 4:27:05 pm] Oli: I trap myself, I think, in a manner of convenience and, thinking about it, indifference is the word. [29/9/23, 4:27:17 pm] Sam: Tbqh [29/9/23, 4:27:20 pm] Oli: I cannot make sense of it or find a way to change it because I need mental answers. [29/9/23, 4:27:28 pm] Oli: So we are here. [29/9/23, 4:27:59 pm] Sam: Well, the trouble is you can’t find any questions to wait while you demand answers to! [29/9/23, 4:28:10 pm] Sam: Haha [29/9/23, 4:28:21 pm] Sam: No I appreciate the last part of the chat but I’m not letting up on this [29/9/23, 4:29:00 pm] Sam: I’m not someone like Freddie who feigns being compassionate in order to get along socially [29/9/23, 4:29:05 pm] Oli: This is true. [29/9/23, 4:29:17 pm] Sam: I’m someone who feigns getting along socially in order to get people to fucking do something [29/9/23, 4:29:43 pm] Sam: Good, good piece here if I’ve not sent it already: https://reducing-suffering.org/the-horror-of-suffering/ [29/9/23, 4:30:05 pm] Oli: It becomes easy to do the same old every day. ‎[29/9/23, 4:30:16 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 4:30:23 pm] Oli: Not sure! You are the master of sending things so you probably did. [29/9/23, 4:30:42 pm] Oli: I have the Peter singer paper on an open tab somewhere [29/9/23, 4:31:15 pm] Sam: Yeah I’ll try anything [29/9/23, 4:31:24 pm] Sam: Christianity too [29/9/23, 4:31:32 pm] Sam: St Basil of Caesarea [29/9/23, 4:31:36 pm] Sam: Of the Basiliad [29/9/23, 4:31:44 pm] Oli: I do recognise that for some reason I can’t make sense of this topic. Or can’t bring myself to make sense of it. [29/9/23, 4:31:48 pm] Sam: Big in Eastern Orthodox Xtianity [29/9/23, 4:31:54 pm] Sam: Fantastic, superb sermons [29/9/23, 4:32:03 pm] Sam: Sadly some only available in print and online excerpts [29/9/23, 4:32:10 pm] Sam: John Chrysostom [29/9/23, 4:32:13 pm] Oli: Selfish convenience but my view is people are forced into selfishness sometimes and it takes a lot to change it [29/9/23, 4:32:15 pm] Oli: I wonder [29/9/23, 4:32:19 pm] Sam: (Less good on Jews and gays, but excellent on poverty) [29/9/23, 4:32:31 pm] Sam: The man himself, of course, JC [29/9/23, 4:32:36 pm] Sam: Etc [29/9/23, 4:32:57 pm] Sam: I don’t really think they’re ‘forced’ so much as they’re ‘selfish’ [29/9/23, 4:33:12 pm] Sam: What it takes to change it is to care about others [29/9/23, 4:33:26 pm] Oli: I don't think I agree with the Dawkins' selfish gene. [29/9/23, 4:33:36 pm] Oli: I think people are contextually conditioned. [29/9/23, 4:33:40 pm] Oli: Yes it is selfish but why? [29/9/23, 4:33:51 pm] Sam: He wasn’t arguing for natural selfishness, fwiw [29/9/23, 4:34:01 pm] Sam: He was arguing for gene-centred evolution [29/9/23, 4:34:10 pm] Sam: Ie that natural selection operates at the level of genes and not organisms [29/9/23, 4:34:19 pm] Sam: No real implications for egoism/altruism but a misleading title [29/9/23, 4:34:24 pm] Sam: No idea what he otherwise thinks [29/9/23, 4:34:37 pm] Oli: Oh I see! [29/9/23, 4:34:42 pm] Oli: I always got that wrong then. [29/9/23, 4:35:01 pm] Sam: Family friend Tim (Tim Elliott, ox, done great research) studied under him at balloon in like the 80s and liked him, fwiw [29/9/23, 4:35:38 pm] Sam: Yeah it’s a misleading title and also referenced by lots of people who attribute that view to him [29/9/23, 4:35:42 pm] Oli: I realise I am in a moral dead-end but can't find a way to turn round. [29/9/23, 4:35:49 pm] Oli: Or to leave the dead-end area. I can probably turn around. [29/9/23, 4:36:03 pm] Sam: I don’t think gene-centred evolution has any connection and if anything it actually somewhat points towards less egoism at the individual level [29/9/23, 4:36:12 pm] Sam: In fact it can’t possibly point towards less, I now realise [29/9/23, 4:36:18 pm] Sam: Anyway anyway anyway [29/9/23, 4:36:30 pm] Sam: I don’t quite see what the struggle is? [29/9/23, 4:37:00 pm] Sam: You either want to or you don’t - it’s not like quitting heroin, as far as I can see, I don’t see why anything would hold you back besides not wanting to [29/9/23, 4:37:18 pm] Sam: Balliol* lol [29/9/23, 4:37:57 pm] Oli: I always conceived the argument as being you must be moral and must deprive yourself of everything for the greater good of more people. [29/9/23, 4:38:11 pm] Oli: That's how it comes across. [29/9/23, 4:38:31 pm] Oli: You can camp in a tent! It's the best outcome! [29/9/23, 4:38:32 pm] Oli: Etc. ‎[29/9/23, 4:38:53 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 4:39:00 pm] Oli: Maybe, hopefully, I am being hyperbolic and silly. [29/9/23, 4:39:17 pm] Oli: Yes, this makes sense for guests. [29/9/23, 4:39:33 pm] Oli: The Christian attitude to view everyone as your guest, like Ned Flanders, is where it gets confusing. [29/9/23, 4:39:47 pm] Oli: Hi diddily hi neighbour, here are my life savings. I'll just eat grass. [29/9/23, 4:40:00 pm] Sam: In other words it’s not self-sacrifice, but I don’t think you need to worry about finding yourself in the unlucky quintile of mankind [29/9/23, 4:40:16 pm] Oli: I perceive myself as being in it! [29/9/23, 4:40:20 pm] Oli: This may seem ridiculous. [29/9/23, 4:40:28 pm] Sam: Yes this idea is very odd to most Christians nowadays [29/9/23, 4:40:35 pm] Oli: I have to make up stories about what I am spending things on and am controlled. [29/9/23, 4:40:46 pm] Sam: Not, of course, to Christ, who said literally that [29/9/23, 4:40:51 pm] Sam: As quoted already [29/9/23, 4:41:01 pm] Sam: Anyway not to say you’re a Christian so for once I’m not accusing you [29/9/23, 4:41:22 pm] Sam: That doesn’t seem ridiculous, that seems exactly the same as all my rich friends [29/9/23, 4:41:29 pm] Oli: Sometimes I am particularly worse off! [29/9/23, 4:41:36 pm] Sam: Divy became an expert in essentially laundering money from his parents [29/9/23, 4:41:38 pm] Oli: It is all an optical illusion. [29/9/23, 4:42:00 pm] Sam: Setting up credit card processors and merchants etc to get money into a form where it could be spent on gay clubbing [29/9/23, 4:42:18 pm] Sam: Everything is grey [29/9/23, 4:42:52 pm] Sam: Grey and then black [29/9/23, 4:42:54 pm] Oli: And one day you are lucky and the next day unlucky. [29/9/23, 4:43:14 pm] Sam: And most days luckier than most people in the world or human history [29/9/23, 4:43:38 pm] Oli: Yes the subjectivity of these things is true. [29/9/23, 4:44:14 pm] Oli: I want to be better but it is not as easy as it seems to you for me. [29/9/23, 4:44:21 pm] Sam: You don’t have as much as you want, c’est la vie, but go to Uganda and argue that you need that extra £100 more than they do [29/9/23, 4:44:20 pm] Oli: Maybe that's in my head. [29/9/23, 4:45:04 pm] Sam: It’s certainly not easy for me but I can’t live with myself otherwise [29/9/23, 4:45:12 pm] Sam: Small price to pay for good sleep [29/9/23, 4:45:29 pm] Oli: Yes, whenever people make remarks along the lines of 'oh £300/£500 is expensive' I always think goodness that's cheap because of the amount pissed up the wall. [29/9/23, 4:45:38 pm] Sam: Works out less than Damien’s Valium probably [29/9/23, 4:45:42 pm] Oli: It is a particularly western disgrace. [29/9/23, 4:45:55 pm] Sam: Yes, 👍 [29/9/23, 4:46:04 pm] Sam: As said here [29/9/23, 4:46:03 pm] Oli: Do you put yourself out of pocket for this? [29/9/23, 4:46:07 pm] Sam: Very well I thought [29/9/23, 4:46:22 pm] Sam: I put myself out of most of my pocket, haha [29/9/23, 4:46:28 pm] Oli: Oh yes [29/9/23, 4:46:34 pm] Oli: How do you do it? [29/9/23, 4:46:38 pm] Oli: 'I just do it'. [29/9/23, 4:46:43 pm] Oli: Yes but it's a point about attitude. [29/9/23, 4:47:09 pm] Sam: Giving money at the end of the month is really the one thing that I can think of that resembles a ‘neat trick’ sorta thing [29/9/23, 4:47:20 pm] Sam: And even then maybe specific to me and my thinking and my spending [29/9/23, 4:47:33 pm] Sam: I also like to denominate my spending in the currency of dead children [29/9/23, 4:47:43 pm] Sam: About 2:1 to the pound right now [29/9/23, 4:47:55 pm] Sam: Sorry, £2 to one dead child [29/9/23, 4:48:06 pm] Oli: That is very cheap [29/9/23, 4:48:14 pm] Sam: Otherwise saved from death for some time, obv not forever [29/9/23, 4:48:23 pm] Sam: Often not childhood [29/9/23, 4:48:59 pm] Sam: But it’s an escape - it’s hard to think about this stuff but it’s the only thing resembling a reason that I could live with myself [29/9/23, 4:49:21 pm] Sam: And to be selfish hollows you out [29/9/23, 4:49:43 pm] Oli: Perhaps this conversation went wrong because I was focusing on the metaethical points underpinning it. [29/9/23, 4:49:47 pm] Sam: Don’t agree with everything in the Politeia/Republic but it makes a very good argument for that main point [29/9/23, 4:49:51 pm] Oli: And the ease with which it is achieved was not stressed. [29/9/23, 4:50:08 pm] Sam: And political points about compelling others [29/9/23, 4:50:23 pm] Sam: A favourite diversionary stratagem, intentionally or not [29/9/23, 4:50:26 pm] Sam: I love this with abortion [29/9/23, 4:51:33 pm] Sam: “It’s wrong to kill your child at 6 months gestationary age because you couldn’t be bothered to use a condom” “Well, what about women who are raped and all their condoms have holes in them and their child grows super quickly and their doctor is a sloth?” “Well, they can come and ask me if any are here!!” [29/9/23, 4:51:39 pm] Sam: And same thing here [29/9/23, 4:52:05 pm] Sam: I can’t say how to immamentise the fucking eschaton but I have a good sandwich recipe [29/9/23, 4:52:09 pm] Oli: I don't know why I think the abortion point is even worse. [29/9/23, 4:52:15 pm] Oli: I probably have an idea of reactive morality rather than active. [29/9/23, 4:52:39 pm] Oli: There are many flaws in my moral makeup. I find it hard to develop it. [29/9/23, 4:52:48 pm] Oli: Or maybe to find the time. I am on an alternate planet. [29/9/23, 4:53:06 pm] Sam: Yes, the thing to do is to come to a planet where there is intelligent life [29/9/23, 4:53:48 pm] Oli: There is so little intelligent life around, which is one of the reasons the world is often unappealing. [29/9/23, 4:54:00 pm] Oli: This is probably a borderline fascistic defence. [29/9/23, 4:54:26 pm] Oli: I have these instant reactions which I then question but can't get further beyond that. [29/9/23, 4:54:32 pm] Sam: Well, if you give them some food, they might stand a chance! [29/9/23, 4:55:04 pm] Oli: Where I do agree with you on your absolutist stance as I describe it is these billionaires. [29/9/23, 4:55:14 pm] Oli: Bill Gates should be reduced forcefully to being a mere millionaire. [29/9/23, 4:55:22 pm] Sam: And stop them from dying of visceral leishmaniasis and trypanosomiasis [29/9/23, 4:55:24 pm] Oli: Apparently that would solve much of the problems and would not require these conversations. [29/9/23, 4:55:28 pm] Sam: And HIV type 2 [29/9/23, 4:55:41 pm] Sam: Etc etc [29/9/23, 4:55:51 pm] Oli: I think I find the implication for 'normal' people to get involved and be Mother Teresa alarming. [29/9/23, 4:56:03 pm] Oli: I don't know why but maybe because such moralists do not like to limit their objectives. [29/9/23, 4:56:05 pm] Sam: Incidentally expect another HIV epidemic in the next 10-25 years [29/9/23, 4:56:24 pm] Oli: A new strain of it? [29/9/23, 4:56:28 pm] Sam: Nor do the selfish! [29/9/23, 4:56:38 pm] Sam: Seems like a good argument for morality rather than selfishness imo [29/9/23, 4:57:00 pm] Oli: Not sure because you'd probably have to agree with the moralist premises rather than selfish ones first. [29/9/23, 4:57:02 pm] Sam: New strain taking off beyond Africa fuelled by antibiotic resistant bacteria (already a problem for people with HIV there) [29/9/23, 4:57:14 pm] Oli: A selfist would say the inverse. [29/9/23, 4:57:53 pm] Sam: I’m not really sure what you mean - are you worried about being too decent? [29/9/23, 4:58:05 pm] Sam: So don’t [29/9/23, 4:58:08 pm] Oli: I can't bring myself to be Good for Goodness sake [29/9/23, 4:58:18 pm] Sam: I mean, a flat earth believer would say the earth is flat [29/9/23, 4:58:22 pm] Oli: Euthyrpo dilemma [29/9/23, 4:58:24 pm] Oli: Euthyrpo [29/9/23, 4:58:28 pm] Oli: Ah I got it right [29/9/23, 4:58:50 pm] Oli: is good and just because God wills it or whether God wills it because it is good and just [29/9/23, 4:58:52 pm] Sam: I think the gods love the pious becaue it is pious [29/9/23, 4:58:57 pm] Oli: I go into these questions when you talk about this stuff. [29/9/23, 4:59:06 pm] Oli: It sends you into the flames of fury. [29/9/23, 4:59:21 pm] Oli: I don't know why I don't just accept it. [29/9/23, 4:59:26 pm] Oli: It's a problem clearly. [29/9/23, 4:59:34 pm] Sam: Selfishness on the other hand doesn’t prompt this paralysis? [29/9/23, 4:59:39 pm] Oli: Well... [29/9/23, 4:59:43 pm] Oli: I ask myself why be selfish. [29/9/23, 4:59:46 pm] Sam: Seems like you have a clear preference for selfishness [29/9/23, 4:59:48 pm] Oli: And seem to find, selfishly, more answers. [29/9/23, 4:59:54 pm] Sam: Yes [29/9/23, 4:59:57 pm] Oli: It is totally illogical [29/9/23, 4:59:59 pm] Sam: As Galbraith said [29/9/23, 5:00:05 pm] Sam: Man’s oldest exercise [29/9/23, 5:00:15 pm] Sam: The search for a superior justification for selfishness [29/9/23, 5:00:27 pm] Sam: It’s appealing because you’re selfish [29/9/23, 5:00:33 pm] Sam: I dunno [29/9/23, 5:01:02 pm] Sam: If you just genuinely prefer to be selfish, I can’t make you act otherwise [29/9/23, 5:01:27 pm] Sam: “I choose the wrong answer” - well, ok I guess, can’t say much to that [29/9/23, 5:01:26 pm] Oli: Funnily, when you put it like this, I am taken aback at the suggestion. [29/9/23, 5:01:35 pm] Oli: When other people phrase it it sounds much worse. [29/9/23, 5:01:48 pm] Sam: What do you mean? [29/9/23, 5:01:49 pm] Oli: When I say it I suspect it is circular logic. [29/9/23, 5:02:08 pm] Oli: I have confirmation bias and just say oh yes but when I am subject to other people's disapproval I register it as wrong. [29/9/23, 5:02:09 pm] Sam: Oh I see [29/9/23, 5:02:18 pm] Oli: That being said I wouldn't stop it but would feel guilty. [29/9/23, 5:02:21 pm] Sam: I thought you were contrasting me with _other_ people [29/9/23, 5:02:22 pm] Sam: I see [29/9/23, 5:02:40 pm] Sam: I mean, this I don’t know how to help with [29/9/23, 5:02:42 pm] Oli: I am sure it can be stopped easily. [29/9/23, 5:02:45 pm] Oli: Over time. [29/9/23, 5:02:47 pm] Sam: I am uncomfortable letting people suffer [29/9/23, 5:03:01 pm] Sam: I think exposing yourself to that suffering is a start [29/9/23, 5:03:03 pm] Sam: Ya know [29/9/23, 5:03:04 pm] Oli: Yes. I think I have just pretended they don't. [29/9/23, 5:03:07 pm] Sam: Look inside the trains etc [29/9/23, 5:03:07 pm] Oli: That is the point. [29/9/23, 5:03:30 pm] Sam: Yes [29/9/23, 5:03:47 pm] Sam: As parfit says [29/9/23, 5:03:56 pm] Sam: Like those who believed they were justified in having slaves [29/9/23, 5:04:10 pm] Sam: Except you etc are way beyond the case in his example [29/9/23, 5:05:15 pm] Sam: You can defend it on the ground that “most others do the same” — most others are in very different circumstances to begin with, but even if not for that, it’s a shoddy reason [29/9/23, 5:06:46 pm] Oli: Yes, I don't think 'oh the majority do it' is a defence at all. I think the point I am somehow trying to make is something along the lines of the reason why people do it. I suspect there are many reasons for people's selfishness, some of them better than others. [29/9/23, 5:07:15 pm] Oli: Maybe I am too lenient and maybe the parameters weren't defined so I was always going off into flights of fancy about giving away all but your last fig leaf. [29/9/23, 5:08:08 pm] Sam: Incidentally, Bill Gates is reducing himself to being a millionaire. So is Phil. So is Bezos’s wife, who’s perhaps one of the very best of the lot, bless her - took half the money in the divorce and has violently disbursed it at a rate of tens of billions a year to those who need it. [29/9/23, 5:08:28 pm] Sam: So there are some good eggs, tho that doesn’t justify the system, of course. [29/9/23, 5:08:43 pm] Oli: Oh he is? I didn't realise. [29/9/23, 5:08:54 pm] Oli: Bill Gates but both of them technically. [29/9/23, 5:09:04 pm] Sam: No, you don’t need to keep doing that - the poor need much less than the rich [29/9/23, 5:09:38 pm] Sam: Yup, very largely on fighting the tropical diseases I was talking about, actually. [29/9/23, 5:09:56 pm] Sam: I’m not praising him, I’m guarded about him, but one can at least say that. [29/9/23, 5:10:31 pm] Sam: He gave a gratifyingly no-bullshit interview not long ago which touches on it: https://www.wired.com/story/bill-gates-is-so-over-this-pandemic/ [29/9/23, 5:10:57 pm] Oli: These things are always portrayed as YOU, GIVE AWAY EVERYTHING, NOW! [29/9/23, 5:11:00 pm] Oli: Sit on your beanbag! [29/9/23, 5:11:06 pm] Oli: Which is why I have always come down against it. [29/9/23, 5:11:12 pm] Oli: Perhaps I am wrong there. [29/9/23, 5:11:16 pm] Sam: No, you’ve got plenty to give away before getting to that point [29/9/23, 5:12:11 pm] Sam: I can see it it terrifies people to see how much others suffer, so much that they wouldn’t even want to meet in the middle, and therefore prefer to try to pretend it’s somehow not so. [29/9/23, 5:13:07 pm] Oli: Yes. I am always fighting against, in my head, Marxists at the gate trying to tear everything down and make us sit in an egalitarian manner twiddling our thumbs in fields. [29/9/23, 5:13:42 pm] Oli: Perhaps this is insane but university students, the only people I mostly discuss this with (or have discussed this with), seem to love this. [29/9/23, 5:14:45 pm] Oli: I trap myself with fiction in my head. [29/9/23, 5:14:48 pm] Oli: I don't know why I do it. [29/9/23, 5:15:13 pm] Oli: It is quite interwar esque I'd say. [29/9/23, 5:15:18 pm] Sam: Marx says nothing about equality. I don’t know what people read but it certainly ain’t Marx. [29/9/23, 5:15:32 pm] Sam: Oh well [29/9/23, 5:15:34 pm] Oli: And funnily I remember this to be true from the little I studied of him. [29/9/23, 5:15:43 pm] Oli: I use the word 'Marxist' colloquially. [29/9/23, 5:15:46 pm] Oli: As it's often used! [29/9/23, 5:15:55 pm] Oli: To mean vague leftist 🤣 [29/9/23, 5:16:08 pm] Sam: Yes, which is why I call myself a Marxian if I do so at all [29/9/23, 5:16:34 pm] Sam: Well, I don’t agree with Marx about everything but I agree about the flaws of capitalism and I agree about the broad strokes of a replacement [29/9/23, 5:16:41 pm] Oli: So, in essence, which I think must mean I am definitely somewhere on the spectrum, I have just wasted an hour or two of your life arguing about something which I imagined in my head. [29/9/23, 5:16:59 pm] Oli: Because now we are talking reasonably about it it doesn't sound like a painful idea. [29/9/23, 5:17:02 pm] Oli: What the fuck is going on? [29/9/23, 5:17:09 pm] Sam: I don’t think the price mechanism can or should be eliminated, I think that should have been settled after the socialist calculation debate and it was one of the flaws of the CCCP [29/9/23, 5:17:17 pm] Oli: And my life it figures. [29/9/23, 5:17:33 pm] Sam: One of fucking many, including that it wasn’t really fucking socialist/communist/Marxist at almost any point in its history [29/9/23, 5:17:37 pm] Sam: Anyway, price mechanism good [29/9/23, 5:17:44 pm] Sam: Underdetermined in Marx’s actual writing [29/9/23, 5:18:01 pm] Sam: Since he refused to give his Rezepte fur die Garkuche der Zukunft [29/9/23, 5:18:07 pm] Sam: Luckily I have a bread recipe [29/9/23, 5:18:19 pm] Sam: Qu’il mangent de la brioche etc [29/9/23, 5:18:22 pm] Sam: What am I on about [29/9/23, 5:18:25 pm] Sam: This is maddening [29/9/23, 5:18:30 pm] Oli: Some people do seem to be more naturally set up for this. [29/9/23, 5:18:32 pm] Oli: You are one of them. [29/9/23, 5:18:36 pm] Oli: Others make it hard for themselves. [29/9/23, 5:18:43 pm] Oli: I must be in this camp. [29/9/23, 5:18:47 pm] Oli: Yes. [29/9/23, 5:18:54 pm] Oli: I don't think I can really talk to people for some reason. [29/9/23, 5:19:00 pm] Oli: I have just had an argument with you about a non-issue. [29/9/23, 5:19:01 pm] Sam: Well, making yourself level with people in Africa and Asia is scary, in the same way white people fear black people having equality [29/9/23, 5:19:06 pm] Oli: Something hypothetical created in my head. [29/9/23, 5:19:14 pm] Sam: (With some reason, looking at Zimbabwe or S Africa) [29/9/23, 5:19:20 pm] Sam: And the black people have some reason too [29/9/23, 5:19:24 pm] Oli: Maybe I find you combative. [29/9/23, 5:19:27 pm] Oli: But I am of course combative... [29/9/23, 5:19:31 pm] Sam: I am combative [29/9/23, 5:19:36 pm] Sam: This is worth fighting for [29/9/23, 5:19:44 pm] Sam: This is possibly the only thing worth fighting for [29/9/23, 5:19:52 pm] Oli: Well, I'm not fighting against it now I am told what it actually is. [29/9/23, 5:20:20 pm] Oli: I never was fighting against morality or charity but I just was led to believe that it had been totally conflated with EGALITARIAN ANARCHY. [29/9/23, 5:20:21 pm] Sam: And god it tires me out to see the endless right wing arguments that people like me are fighting on behalf of some shady force that magically benefits from fairness [29/9/23, 5:20:32 pm] Oli: Hence why I made the arguments I did. [29/9/23, 5:20:34 pm] Sam: They can bang on all they want about Soros (who is a nice man) [29/9/23, 5:20:36 pm] Oli: 'Oh it's a lovely idea but very hard' [29/9/23, 5:20:42 pm] Sam: But that force is called the poor [29/9/23, 5:20:44 pm] Sam: The wretched [29/9/23, 5:20:59 pm] Oli: Yes that is true. [29/9/23, 5:21:26 pm] Oli: I think the take home from this, one of them, is that communication is important and discussions should not be allowed to rapidly derail, based on someone's assumed premises. [29/9/23, 5:21:30 pm] Sam: I mean, in the extreme it’s quite hard, at least bringing yourself level with the worst off [29/9/23, 5:21:51 pm] Sam: Again not what Marxism wants, but it is what Christianity and most ethics and religion demands, with some justice [29/9/23, 5:22:09 pm] Sam: Not that you’d ever think it looking at most ‘Christian’ anti-Marxist folk [29/9/23, 5:22:13 pm] Oli: I think the problem must be with me for the most part because I do selfishly think it's easier to live in a bubble but wouldn't it be lovely if we could all be happy etc. [29/9/23, 5:22:25 pm] Oli: BUT... [29/9/23, 5:22:39 pm] Oli: I think this, I think, because it is a reaction to the hypothetical argument I have just outlined. [29/9/23, 5:22:43 pm] Sam: Well, yeah, it’s fun to be Marie antoinette [29/9/23, 5:22:47 pm] Sam: But again [29/9/23, 5:22:48 pm] Oli: Which is what I always assumed, based on how it's characterised. [29/9/23, 5:22:55 pm] Sam: When people have nothing else to eat [29/9/23, 5:22:59 pm] Sam: They will eat the rich [29/9/23, 5:23:11 pm] Sam: So of questionable wisdom in the end [29/9/23, 5:23:47 pm] Oli: Yes that is some philosophical argument as well. [29/9/23, 5:24:13 pm] Oli: I agree with this entirely. I did not conceive of this, or do not typically, when this argument was or is brought up. [29/9/23, 5:24:22 pm] Sam: It’s also a ‘do you want to end up with your neck on the scaffold?’ question [29/9/23, 5:24:34 pm] Sam: Which you will before long if things proceed as they are [29/9/23, 5:24:49 pm] Sam: With which bit? Sorry [29/9/23, 5:25:34 pm] Sam: Not what Marxism *requires* is maybe a better way of putting it - out of scope, and statistically improbable in a Marxist system, at least as much as is any other outcome [29/9/23, 5:26:34 pm] Oli: People will top their overlords if it gets out of control so it is in everyone's interest (one can make a conservative case for charity or the welfare state) to be moral in that sense. [29/9/23, 5:27:06 pm] Oli: I was having a hypothetical argument with you which I assumed to be real. [29/9/23, 5:27:31 pm] Oli: Which is my error. I must somehow be on the spectrum quite pronouncedly. [29/9/23, 5:29:00 pm] Sam: Yes, that’s not what I want. I think Rawls’s principle is good (even if I don’t agree with his actual proposed outcome), ie any inequality should be to the benefit of the worst off. [29/9/23, 5:29:02 pm] Oli: I think people should require communication licences. [29/9/23, 5:29:09 pm] Oli: I would have failed my test multiple times in the last few hours. [29/9/23, 5:29:16 pm] Oli: Maybe you would have too in some respect. [29/9/23, 5:29:24 pm] Oli: You are diagnosed on the spectrum aren't you? [29/9/23, 5:29:28 pm] Oli: I am not but I am convinced I am. [29/9/23, 5:29:29 pm] Sam: I’m not saying a society should decide those transactions ad hoc in reality, but that that should be the yardstick for evaluating different economic systems. [29/9/23, 5:29:34 pm] Sam: Yup! [29/9/23, 5:29:45 pm] Sam: I somewhat doubt it’s a spectrum but yes I have Asperger’s [29/9/23, 5:29:45 pm] Oli: I am utterly embarrassed at this. [29/9/23, 5:30:07 pm] Oli: I have wasted two hours of our lives having a sanctimonious quasi-rage about something which I had imagined. [29/9/23, 5:30:09 pm] Sam: Again recommend this [29/9/23, 5:30:13 pm] Oli: Something I'd conflated with the actual moral argument. [29/9/23, 5:30:16 pm] Oli: OH RIGHT [29/9/23, 5:30:19 pm] Oli: That's why I had it as an open tab. [29/9/23, 5:30:21 pm] Oli: I just closed it. [29/9/23, 5:30:24 pm] Oli: I didn't know why I had it. [29/9/23, 5:30:25 pm] Oli: Haha [29/9/23, 5:30:32 pm] Sam: Ah, worth reading, yes [29/9/23, 5:30:40 pm] Oli: I can't believe this. [29/9/23, 5:30:44 pm] Oli: I wonder how many other times I've done that. [29/9/23, 5:31:08 pm] Sam: But I don’t want to let the satisfaction of a well concluded argument trick me into forgetting the last of Marx’s Theses on Feuerbach [29/9/23, 5:31:35 pm] Sam: That is, “you have to fucking do something” [29/9/23, 5:32:36 pm] Oli: Here I am telling you you don't understand me or know me properly (true but obviously me you too) and I can't even bring myself to think logically. [29/9/23, 5:32:43 pm] Oli: That is priceless. [29/9/23, 5:32:53 pm] Sam: And I’m not sure that’s quite it - I think it’s also become easier as it’s drifted towards the abstract and away from “how can you justify spending your money on coke and your life on doing coke with dullards with titles while good people like Ryan freeze to death” [29/9/23, 5:32:56 pm] Oli: Starting off with an assumed premise. [29/9/23, 5:33:06 pm] Sam: But possibly both [29/9/23, 5:33:34 pm] Oli: I am becoming steadily convinced of the ills of these means of communication. [29/9/23, 5:33:37 pm] Sam: “A good example of how, starting from an incorrect premiss, a remorseless logician can end up in Bedlam” - Keynes reviewing one of Hayek’s books [29/9/23, 5:33:42 pm] Oli: Even letters but at least that's not instantly reactive. [29/9/23, 5:33:56 pm] Sam: Been 10 years since I read the review so quotation is likely not verbatim [29/9/23, 5:34:02 pm] Oli: Yes. [29/9/23, 5:34:18 pm] Oli: You see when you said it first of all I thought you were LITERALLY telling me to live like Jesus Christ. [29/9/23, 5:34:35 pm] Oli: I think you clocked that I had gone a bit mad on that front earlier on in the argument. [29/9/23, 5:34:56 pm] Oli: He's quite right from the little I know of Hayek [29/9/23, 5:35:27 pm] Oli: I should tattoo this on my forehead and wear some kind of mirror attachment in front of my face. [29/9/23, 5:36:08 pm] Oli: Which is why I reacted as I did. [29/9/23, 5:36:59 pm] Oli: Yes probably when it's less personal one is less immediately defensive. Though I did always agree that that personal example was thoroughly wrong but akrasia prevented me from changing it. [29/9/23, 5:37:08 pm] Oli: If I register it as akrasia is it actually akrasia? Catch-22? [29/9/23, 5:39:02 pm] Oli: I apologise for once again, if I've done it before, which I'm sure I have, letting my silly mind jump the gun and defending myself against men of straw. [29/9/23, 5:39:07 pm] Oli: An embarrassment. [29/9/23, 5:40:35 pm] Oli: My moral stance, which is as I conveyed it somewhat that, is also but it isn't as extreme as it came across, because I was responding to what I perceived to be extreme hyperbole. The indifference, which is the right word, does still exist, but to my mind there was no escape from it because the solution was, as I interpreted it, not doable. [29/9/23, 5:41:26 pm] Oli: I was wrong about this. I must prove myself right somehow. Supermarket food banks are a good entry level. [29/9/23, 5:41:53 pm] Oli: How I can be so introspective as to abandon all logic when it comes to this topic is a mystery. [29/9/23, 5:47:21 pm] Sam: No if there were crossed wires then I don’t think it’s your fault any more than mine [29/9/23, 5:47:30 pm] Sam: I certainly don’t mind either way [29/9/23, 5:47:35 pm] Sam: And yes - wait one sec ‎[29/9/23, 5:50:41 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 5:52:24 pm] Oli: The give money to everyone is, I think, even worse than my points (I at least had some idea I was arguing against). This just reminds me of a child illogically throwing toys out of a pram. [29/9/23, 5:53:43 pm] Sam: I genuinely don't know if they were speaking English or just particularly poor Proto-Aramaic [29/9/23, 5:54:06 pm] Sam: I could see no statistical correlation between my replies and the content of their messages. [29/9/23, 5:54:26 pm] Sam: Decorticated laboratory chimpanzees could make a better argument. [29/9/23, 5:58:17 pm] Sam: Sorry, aunt just got back so may be slightly sidetracked! [29/9/23, 6:40:00 pm] Sam: But yeah, I don't find equality at all appealing. Same goes for free university, which is just taking money from the working class to give to the idle middle class. In my preferred world, we'd have grammar schools (a crying shame that we got rid of them, tho there must be a way to 'test in' past 11), we'd nationalise Oxford and Cambridge and give scholarships to the meritorious (on means-tested bases except for medicine and other high-stakes degrees), and turn the University of Salford and everything like it into homeless shelters) etc etc I got bored [29/9/23, 7:21:53 pm] Oli: I see what you are saying. I am not sure from where I got the idea that you are some radical communist (or quasi-communist). [29/9/23, 7:25:52 pm] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [29/9/23, 7:26:29 pm] Oli: How did you predict this? It was in the afternoon though not the morning. It happened for the wrong reason! [29/9/23, 7:27:55 pm] Oli: I can't believe it took that long. [29/9/23, 7:35:32 pm] Sam: Well, it depends what it means to be an x-ist. Do I believe it would be a better system? Yes. (I prefer to call it socialism, but properly the difference is quite academic.) Is it the main thing I’m fighting for? Am I an accelerationist? Nah. Also, please please please go and read The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists. A bit old-fashioned and Edwardian-feeling nowadays, almost, but it’s an utterly superb case for socialism. (Think of it more like the Republic than a proper book with a plot.) Also the Henry George piece I sent a while ago. Properly understood, the difference again is quite academic, this time between land in the literal sense (George) vs the economists’ sense (Marx—in Marxist jargon, the means of production). [29/9/23, 7:36:49 pm] Sam: Wait, what do you think I predicted there? I was just saying I was going to keep talking about this over time, I think. Poorly worded. ‎[29/9/23, 8:06:44 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 8:08:05 pm] Oli: I must apologise for abusing you on this chat this afternoon. [29/9/23, 8:08:12 pm] Oli: I am not sure what gets into me. [29/9/23, 8:08:28 pm] Oli: Not strictly speaking ‘abusing’ but it’s akin to that. [29/9/23, 8:09:07 pm] Oli: I am clearly sometimes very odd. ‎[29/9/23, 8:09:30 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 8:12:12 pm] Sam: Nah I was harder on you than you were on me to be quite honest ‎[29/9/23, 8:12:46 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 8:13:35 pm] Sam: This was from July wasn’t it? In the group chat? [29/9/23, 8:13:38 pm] Sam: Wait one sec dinner sorry [29/9/23, 8:15:36 pm] Oli: Yes! [29/9/23, 8:15:40 pm] Oli: Me too! [29/9/23, 8:15:46 pm] Oli: Soon [29/9/23, 8:20:48 pm] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. ‎[29/9/23, 8:21:44 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[29/9/23, 8:46:04 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 8:46:15 pm] Oli: Slape message [29/9/23, 8:50:49 pm] Sam: This is genuinely the stupidest thing I’ve ever read. I’m just marvelling at rereading it. Isn’t this amazing? I feel like it says something deeply interesting about the political culture. This person has absolutely no clue whatsoever about what universal basic income means or even how the tax system works, and their best attempt to define it ends up amounting (as I said there) to a sub-mediaeval state that I’m not sure has even ever existed (since pre-dissolution the church redistributed a fuck ton of money as a quasi-state), yet they believe it because someone told them it’s left-wing, and once they’re corrected they’ll believe something utterly different. Is ‘believe’ even the right word? Curious shit. [29/9/23, 8:51:36 pm] Sam: ‘The truth is…’ - no one can know what the truth is, but we can now be sure it’s not whatever follows [29/9/23, 9:02:12 pm] Oli: A wise man said that the penalty for not being interested in politics, is that you end up ruled by your inferiors. Well, the penalty for poor self-discipline when it comes to substances, is that a man ends up being controlled by his inferiors, who provide the dosage. The professor is controlled by the dealer who can barely string two words together. [29/9/23, 9:02:12 pm] Oli: Mad int' it? [29/9/23, 9:02:12 pm] Oli: Not speaking from a position of superiority. I have my own vices. I'm speaking from the position of wanting to keep Babington among us for a long time. [29/9/23, 9:02:25 pm] Oli: As you said 🤣 [29/9/23, 9:02:41 pm] Oli: Am just thinking about this now [29/9/23, 9:08:23 pm] Sam: Also no, I’m sorry, despite what I said above, I’m not sure it was even even. I was pretty much abusing you. You were definitely sarcastic at points, and honestly I probably missed a bunch of your messages and maybe you said worse, but I think I owe you an apology. I probably wluldnt have given you one, just because I was being sincere and I’m not entirely sure that “I don’t care about people who starving to death” isn’t morally equal to “fuck you you nigger ass bitch!!!!!” or whatever I might have said, but now that you’ve apologised, in a logic that’s something like your ‘reactive morality’ (=‘out of sight, out of mind!’), I feel it’s a bit shitty not to correct it. I still think mostly it was deserved, but it was still a lot and I can’t reasonably expect you to react without anger. (To me that would imply that my anger _is_ the punishment, is what expiates your sins, which is somehow both inadequate and a bit unhealthy imo.) [29/9/23, 9:31:58 pm] Sam: Sorry, who is talking here? Haha [29/9/23, 9:32:06 pm] Oli: Exeter chap! [29/9/23, 9:51:10 pm] Oli: Just sorting self out then shall be able to properly message. [29/9/23, 9:52:52 pm] Oli: I am going to Exeter tomorrow (Sat) for this party and will be in England for a bit. Then to Norfolk. I will be around! [29/9/23, 10:04:28 pm] Sam: And who is the professor? You? Is that an unusual thing to feel like one is controlled by one’s inferiors? That’s how I usually feel. And many of my dealers know where to put a comma. (Really, given they are pulling the strings, in what sense exactly are they your inferiors?) [29/9/23, 10:05:34 pm] Oli: I think metaphorical! Anyone. Presumably just an example to illustrate the story. [29/9/23, 10:05:46 pm] Oli: Maybe he meant it about me (he’s on the spectrum too)! [29/9/23, 10:05:53 pm] Oli: Everyone I know is spectrum 🤣 [29/9/23, 10:06:35 pm] Oli: Yes I think this chap doesn’t really know how it works so just conceives of it in that way. [29/9/23, 10:06:42 pm] Sam: But if only he could generalise this a little, and if we think of drugs as the means of production (which in a sense here they are), then you’ve got something that almost resembles Marxism, did he but know it! [29/9/23, 10:06:52 pm] Oli: Social or intellectual inferiors? [29/9/23, 10:06:56 pm] Oli: Both maybe [29/9/23, 10:07:20 pm] Oli: Suppose intellectual befauwe it follows on from the introductory quote. [29/9/23, 10:07:23 pm] Oli: Because [29/9/23, 10:07:31 pm] Oli: Befauwe is the new kofefe [29/9/23, 10:09:17 pm] Sam: covfefe* [29/9/23, 10:09:29 pm] Sam: *In spite of the negative press covfefe* ‎[29/9/23, 10:10:08 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 10:10:30 pm] Sam: Two disjoint sets [29/9/23, 10:12:13 pm] Sam: But no I’m well used to being ruled by my inferiors! I’m the product of natural selection rather than nursemaids and psychologically devastating parental neglect! [29/9/23, 10:12:41 pm] Sam: Shit, sorry, that wasn’t a jab at you, I wouldn’t say that sort of thing [29/9/23, 10:12:53 pm] Oli: I didn’t think it was! [29/9/23, 10:13:14 pm] Oli: Haha [29/9/23, 10:13:17 pm] Sam: I had in mind my mum’s friend Lenka being abused by a nanny for several years before fucking Austin Powers noticed her injuries [29/9/23, 10:13:31 pm] Sam: Horrific [29/9/23, 10:13:32 pm] Oli: That is something [29/9/23, 10:13:34 pm] Sam: And other similar stories [29/9/23, 10:13:39 pm] Sam: My best friend James, nanny, same story [29/9/23, 10:13:49 pm] Sam: Not several years in his case but some months [29/9/23, 10:14:03 pm] Sam: 21st century aristo tiger cub parenting! [29/9/23, 10:14:21 pm] Oli: Tamils? [29/9/23, 10:14:38 pm] Sam: I mean do you question why this supposed master race can’t produce slightly less useless human beings? [29/9/23, 10:14:58 pm] Sam: Oh I just meant it as an inept version of tiger parenting [29/9/23, 10:15:31 pm] Oli: Oh yes churns out UC Twits by the second! ‎[29/9/23, 10:15:37 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 10:16:48 pm] Sam: How are the Habsburgs doing? Have their mandibular vestibules gone the way of their empire yet? [29/9/23, 10:17:18 pm] Oli: Was just talking about them with said Exeter friend as apparently there was another Hab there. They are too large. [29/9/23, 10:17:27 pm] Oli: My friend isn’t inbred or has had it bread out of him! [29/9/23, 10:18:23 pm] Sam: Ah good, a few new nucleotides to ward off pedigree collapse ‎[29/9/23, 10:18:40 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 10:18:43 pm] Sam: Ok this bores me so much that I can hardly bear to write one message about it [29/9/23, 10:18:47 pm] Oli: Not a typical looking inbred [29/9/23, 10:19:03 pm] Oli: It is maybe slightly more interesting than the Brits but I am no geneticist! [29/9/23, 10:19:38 pm] Sam: Looks like my grandmother [29/9/23, 10:19:52 pm] Oli: OH YES [29/9/23, 10:19:56 pm] Oli: It is the same person [29/9/23, 10:20:03 pm] Oli: Well… I’m also Jakob you see! [29/9/23, 10:20:07 pm] Oli: So I’m also your granny! [29/9/23, 10:20:14 pm] Sam: Ah yes, that would explain it! [29/9/23, 10:20:28 pm] Sam: God almighty [29/9/23, 10:20:57 pm] Oli: They will be on the Calvin Klein! [29/9/23, 10:20:58 pm] Sam: What a ludicrous waste [29/9/23, 10:21:02 pm] Oli: Coke and ketamine. [29/9/23, 10:21:09 pm] Oli: A wonderful demise to the Austro Hungarian empire [29/9/23, 10:21:55 pm] Oli: Driving down! 🤣 [29/9/23, 10:22:04 pm] Sam: All this suffering and death just to sustain some brain stem dead moral invertebrate whose life is about as enjoyable as that of a French bulldog [29/9/23, 10:22:27 pm] Oli: Suffering and death re drugs? [29/9/23, 10:22:37 pm] Oli: Or you mean the proletariat supporting the overlord? [29/9/23, 10:23:02 pm] Oli: I am amazed I have not yet been banned from driving. [29/9/23, 10:23:55 pm] Oli: You met the man in the glasses at that Chelsea pub. I remember that being a car crash of an evening! 🤣 [29/9/23, 10:23:57 pm] Oli: Cheers to that. [29/9/23, 10:24:03 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 10:27:30 pm] Oli: Just going to have a shah. More (more germane to our lives) soon. [29/9/23, 10:30:15 pm] Sam: Shit that’s where I remembered that person’s name from [29/9/23, 10:30:26 pm] Sam: Chelsea car crash [29/9/23, 10:30:30 pm] Sam: Irishman [29/9/23, 10:30:44 pm] Sam: Lennon mentions in that Beatles song, Day in the Life [29/9/23, 10:30:47 pm] Oli: LOL a party presumably quite similar to ours [29/9/23, 10:30:51 pm] Sam: > He blew his brains out in a car [29/9/23, 10:30:57 pm] Sam: > He didn’t notice that the lights had changed [29/9/23, 10:31:12 pm] Oli: ‘Wrapped himself’ around a tree as I heard one person saying. [29/9/23, 10:31:17 pm] Sam: > And no one’s really sure if he was in the House of Lords [29/9/23, 10:31:24 pm] Sam: Etc [29/9/23, 10:31:37 pm] Sam: I wasn’t there sadly! [29/9/23, 10:31:44 pm] Oli: I was. [29/9/23, 10:31:51 pm] Oli: I also played the role of Tara Browne. [29/9/23, 10:31:58 pm] Oli: It was quite a hard act! [29/9/23, 10:32:00 pm] Sam: Macabre name for a drag persona or whatever you were talking about lol [29/9/23, 10:32:21 pm] Sam: Haha, I’m still less than totally sure about Freddie if I’m honest [29/9/23, 10:32:24 pm] Oli: Very much! [29/9/23, 10:32:27 pm] Sam: Or at least something doesn’t add up about him [29/9/23, 10:32:33 pm] Oli: I’m him on Tuesdays [29/9/23, 10:32:38 pm] Sam: But if he’s real then it may well be on his end and not yours [29/9/23, 10:32:46 pm] Oli: I’ve got a lot of people to be. [29/9/23, 10:32:46 pm] Sam: Eg drugs - prob the likely candidate [29/9/23, 10:32:54 pm] Oli: Not sure about that! [29/9/23, 10:32:58 pm] Sam: Since he made himself out to be something of an ingenu [29/9/23, 10:33:03 pm] Oli: But addictions develop easily so maybe he has! [29/9/23, 10:33:33 pm] Sam: Well, given he kept such odd hours [29/9/23, 10:34:34 pm] Sam: And also given that - as I recall noting at the time - he didn’t seem very different when high vs when sober [29/9/23, 10:34:43 pm] Sam: And he seemed somewhat high even when sober [29/9/23, 10:34:51 pm] Sam: And seldom spoke before a somewhat late hour [29/9/23, 10:35:05 pm] Sam: I actually don’t think I spoke to him in the daylight hours save once or thrice [29/9/23, 10:35:23 pm] Oli: As I said (this morning funnily LOL) I think that’s possible without drugs. [29/9/23, 10:35:42 pm] Oli: Oh! [29/9/23, 10:35:47 pm] Oli: Maybe he was then. [29/9/23, 10:35:49 pm] Oli: Could be. [29/9/23, 10:35:55 pm] Oli: He seemed to handle the coke well. [29/9/23, 10:36:00 pm] Sam: It’s possible to toss a fair coin and get 100 heads! [29/9/23, 10:36:03 pm] Oli: First time users don’t handle that amount that well! [29/9/23, 10:36:11 pm] Sam: If anything, that may well be it [29/9/23, 10:36:22 pm] Sam: Though I’m also suspicious that he was quite so unwilling to meet [29/9/23, 10:36:28 pm] Sam: Quite so absurdly unwilling [29/9/23, 10:36:39 pm] Sam: And in such a strange way given the nature of his apparent interest [29/9/23, 10:36:42 pm] Oli: He was roleplaying as someone else then I think. He must’ve been his girlfriend. [29/9/23, 10:36:49 pm] Oli: He probably does drag 🤣 [29/9/23, 10:37:04 pm] Oli: I thought he was willing! [29/9/23, 10:37:11 pm] Oli: Well I really don’t know. [29/9/23, 10:37:20 pm] Oli: I don’t fancy him strangely enough. [29/9/23, 10:37:25 pm] Oli: I think it’s his nose! [29/9/23, 10:37:27 pm] Sam: And I don’t think I have him on any social networks or anything, though to be fair I never really asked and it’s not my thing [29/9/23, 10:37:31 pm] Oli: Weird shape [29/9/23, 10:37:38 pm] Oli: He hasn’t accepted me either! [29/9/23, 10:37:51 pm] Oli: Like the Grand Canyon [29/9/23, 10:37:54 pm] Sam: Oh I never asked nor would have [29/9/23, 10:38:18 pm] Sam: Asked either in the sense of ‘requesting’ or literally asking [29/9/23, 10:38:33 pm] Oli: What if he’s Slape? [29/9/23, 10:38:39 pm] Oli: And it’s just Slape in a costume? [29/9/23, 10:38:54 pm] Oli: Slape [29/9/23, 10:39:12 pm] Sam: Well he long predates the _dies Slaporum_ [29/9/23, 10:39:31 pm] Oli: Slape was a subsequent character then! [29/9/23, 10:39:53 pm] Oli: Yes I don’t think you ‘do’ social media! [29/9/23, 10:40:01 pm] Oli: You are on them though but somehow not really’ [29/9/23, 10:40:21 pm] Oli: I used to use Facebook a lot, which is apparently an old person thing. [29/9/23, 10:40:25 pm] Oli: I quite like Facebook! [29/9/23, 10:40:38 pm] Oli: Just shah ‎[29/9/23, 10:46:33 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/9/23, 10:46:33 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 10:46:52 pm] Sam: That’s probably worth mentioning in clarification of the ‘he never wanted to meet’ thing ‎[29/9/23, 10:47:18 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 10:47:40 pm] Sam: ^ from my brother to my sister [29/9/23, 11:08:07 pm] Oli: Not appreciated by you, me or anything! I love the concept of inviting someone to something one wouldn’t appreciate their presence at. [29/9/23, 11:08:15 pm] Oli: It sounds particularly English! [29/9/23, 11:08:46 pm] Oli: He gets this wrong too. [29/9/23, 11:08:57 pm] Oli: Yes I was going to reply to the Cadogan thing he raised earlier! [29/9/23, 11:10:21 pm] Sam: ‘He raised’? I am in a serene state of discommunion with him [29/9/23, 11:10:40 pm] Oli: I know vaguely through one of his Stoic school friends Will Motion, whose sister is by marriage Davina Cadogan, so he’s more than a friend of theirs. But I don’t really know them as such. I am a tangential connection to them. [29/9/23, 11:10:51 pm] Oli: The one you sent me ‘annex’ [29/9/23, 11:12:22 pm] Oli: One up him! [29/9/23, 11:12:47 pm] Oli: That actually isn’t a particularly normal thing one would say. [29/9/23, 11:12:56 pm] Oli: Maybe he was being purposefully joking. [29/9/23, 11:13:17 pm] Oli: 11 inches! [29/9/23, 11:15:26 pm] Sam: Ah I see. No, all these are old messages, thank the lord. [29/9/23, 11:15:40 pm] Sam: I haven’t replied to him since I answered his last heap of self-pitying bollocks back in July or whenever. [29/9/23, 11:15:45 pm] Oli: As old as the eons! [29/9/23, 11:16:04 pm] Sam: It’s been a joyous deliverance [29/9/23, 11:16:05 pm] Oli: Oh he did that. [29/9/23, 11:16:10 pm] Oli: I can’t work this out then. [29/9/23, 11:16:13 pm] Oli: What’s gone on! [29/9/23, 11:16:30 pm] Oli: I am only him on Tuesdays you see. [29/9/23, 11:16:37 pm] Oli: We have other stand-ins for the other days. [29/9/23, 11:16:42 pm] Oli: I must speak with them! [29/9/23, 11:16:43 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [29/9/23, 11:16:53 pm] Sam: This is the last I said to him: ‎[29/9/23, 11:17:17 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 11:17:35 pm] Oli: Hope you’re stable! [29/9/23, 11:17:38 pm] Oli: Strong and sable [29/9/23, 11:17:56 pm] Oli: Pleasant. [29/9/23, 11:18:00 pm] Sam: That was relatively non-rude given my message to him [29/9/23, 11:19:06 pm] Sam: But oh well, he’s still a pointless invertebrate blancmange [29/9/23, 11:19:44 pm] Sam: Could replace him with a scarecrow in a school blazer without much loss of function [29/9/23, 11:20:00 pm] Oli: Rehearsing the eulogy already! [29/9/23, 11:21:50 pm] Oli: *shoots someone in the head* [29/9/23, 11:21:55 pm] Oli: Victim: I hope you’re stable! [29/9/23, 11:22:00 pm] Oli: Sorry you had to kill me. [29/9/23, 11:22:53 pm] Sam: Well, this is what I meant by stopped-up rage and frustration [29/9/23, 11:23:27 pm] Sam: One can’t be angry because one can’t admit that one cares [29/9/23, 11:23:58 pm] Sam: ‘Sublimated’ rage as I think I called it to Damien, though really maybe more displaced than sublimated ‎[29/9/23, 11:27:02 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[29/9/23, 11:27:02 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [29/9/23, 11:29:26 pm] Oli: I know little to nothing about these. I only speculate when I discuss it! [29/9/23, 11:29:33 pm] Oli: You are an encyclopaedia on this! [29/9/23, 11:33:25 pm] Sam: Oh well it’s my dad’s practice, so we had encyclopaedias on this scattered around the floors of practically every room in the house when I was young [29/9/23, 11:33:51 pm] Sam: I read them probably much too young and I still believe a lot of it, though much of it is unfalsifiable [29/9/23, 11:34:12 pm] Sam: Obviously these are models [29/9/23, 11:34:44 pm] Sam: Same way phlogiston still is quite a decent model of combustion, and survived for that reason, whyever people ridicule it [29/9/23, 11:35:40 pm] Sam: I am unsure where to go with this conversation, though, because I suspect none of this has really had any effect, much like Slape, and that nothing will change and we will be back here in a month, bluntly [29/9/23, 11:35:52 pm] Oli: I hope not [29/9/23, 11:36:07 pm] Oli: I am going to write some thoughts now but maybe it will Slape out. I am also unsure. [29/9/23, 11:36:11 pm] Sam: Which is fine, I’m not demanding that you change to suit me, but I’m apprehensive that you expect this to go somewhere it’s not going to [29/9/23, 11:36:40 pm] Sam: I also don’t quite understand why you want to do this [29/9/23, 11:36:54 pm] Sam: God, look, I’m sorry in many ways [29/9/23, 11:37:06 pm] Oli: I’m not sure either! [29/9/23, 11:37:11 pm] Oli: I think I am just curious. [29/9/23, 11:37:12 pm] Sam: I disapprove but many people in the world are like this [29/9/23, 11:37:14 pm] Oli: In friendly way! [29/9/23, 11:37:24 pm] Sam: But just not me [29/9/23, 11:37:52 pm] Sam: I have said it repeatedly and repeatedly to you and Freddie and some day you might believe it! [29/9/23, 11:38:07 pm] Sam: No that’s fair enough! [29/9/23, 11:38:28 pm] Sam: I think maybe I’m turning into a bit of a bully in this thread because it exasperates me but I dunno [29/9/23, 11:38:45 pm] Sam: Ah well [29/9/23, 11:38:52 pm] Sam: Il faut imaginer sisyphe heureux [29/9/23, 11:39:15 pm] Oli: It's like being abandoned on a desert island in some respects! [29/9/23, 11:39:36 pm] Sam: That sounds lovely! [29/9/23, 11:39:44 pm] Sam: It’s like being abandoned on a non-desert island [29/9/23, 11:39:53 pm] Sam: It’s like Sartre’s play Huis Clos [29/9/23, 11:40:05 pm] Sam: (Tr. No Exit or sth like that) [29/9/23, 11:40:08 pm] Oli: Oh yes hell is other people [29/9/23, 11:40:14 pm] Sam: With the three chaps stuck in a room together [29/9/23, 11:40:15 pm] Sam: Yup [29/9/23, 11:40:16 pm] Oli: But in the context of being stuck [29/9/23, 11:40:22 pm] Sam: L’enfer c’est les sutures [29/9/23, 11:40:25 pm] Sam: Sutures [29/9/23, 11:40:27 pm] Sam: Ffs [29/9/23, 11:40:30 pm] Sam: Others [29/9/23, 11:40:50 pm] Sam: Good play [29/9/23, 11:41:05 pm] Sam: They did a sort of horror movie version a while ago but no one seemed to recognise it as a pastiche of that [29/9/23, 11:41:09 pm] Sam: Ah well [29/9/23, 11:41:09 pm] Oli: The stranger [29/9/23, 11:41:24 pm] Sam: Ah yes I’ve thought of doing that [29/9/23, 11:41:47 pm] Sam: Shooting a man I mean [29/9/23, 11:41:52 pm] Sam: Actually several men [29/9/23, 11:42:01 pm] Sam: I think if I kill myself id like to take out some other people first [29/9/23, 11:42:52 pm] Sam: Maybe like the guy who shot Gianni Versace (but not with superannuated haberdashers) [29/9/23, 11:43:07 pm] Oli: Most people probably do have those thoughts. Some more serious than others! [29/9/23, 11:43:18 pm] Sam: L’appel du vide [29/9/23, 11:44:05 pm] Sam: Bonjour, je m’appelle Sam et j’habite à vide [29/9/23, 11:44:26 pm] Sam: Eta eta [29/9/23, 11:44:47 pm] Sam: I am so fed up and despondent, frankly [29/9/23, 11:47:13 pm] Sam: I am so fed up of the suffering and the desperation and the misery and then seeing everything go to a bunch of gormless graceless emotionally stunted atelic quarterwits who act like it’s all a big laugh and it’s all pointless isn’t it really let’s just piss about etc etc [29/9/23, 11:48:36 pm] Oli: Don't I know it. [29/9/23, 11:48:41 pm] Sam: I was sick of it last week and I’ll be sick of it next week and a year from now [29/9/23, 11:48:41 pm] Oli: Not to make it into a joke. [29/9/23, 11:48:43 pm] Oli: I can see you are! [29/9/23, 11:48:48 pm] Sam: Apparently not [29/9/23, 11:48:58 pm] Oli: The problem was... LOL it's so ridiculous... [29/9/23, 11:49:05 pm] Oli: I knew it and agreed with it but couldn't bring myself... [29/9/23, 11:49:09 pm] Sam: But yes I’ve asked myself that despairingly many times [29/9/23, 11:49:11 pm] Oli: I don't even know what I am saying anymore. [29/9/23, 11:49:22 pm] Sam: Sorry, what? [29/9/23, 11:49:34 pm] Oli: Me assessing my argument or stupid statement. [29/9/23, 11:49:40 pm] Oli: I don't even know what for anymore. [29/9/23, 11:50:02 pm] Sam: Decency is what it’s usually called [29/9/23, 11:50:17 pm] Oli: Particularly the man with no hair on his head. [29/9/23, 11:50:20 pm] Sam: Morality if you prefer [29/9/23, 11:50:33 pm] Oli: Yes. [29/9/23, 11:50:38 pm] Sam: Ah yes, hairless, can’t even do that right [29/9/23, 11:51:41 pm] Sam: I’m not quite sure if you’re you right now or if you’ve gone back to being the world [29/9/23, 11:52:31 pm] Sam: I’m sorry, there’s just not much I can do about it [29/9/23, 11:52:36 pm] Sam: I _am_ angry [29/9/23, 11:52:40 pm] Oli: I don't know either but I want to try and work things out. [29/9/23, 11:52:43 pm] Sam: I consider it disgraceful [29/9/23, 11:52:54 pm] Oli: I said the same. [29/9/23, 11:52:57 pm] Oli: If you go over the messages. [29/9/23, 11:52:59 pm] Sam: With me? I don’t quite know what this is about [29/9/23, 11:53:02 pm] Oli: It is a weird position I have. [29/9/23, 11:53:07 pm] Oli: Not really with you. [29/9/23, 11:53:15 pm] Oli: About myself but through our interactions somehow. [29/9/23, 11:53:50 pm] Oli: I can't even communicate anymore. [29/9/23, 11:54:07 pm] Oli: Well, I can, but I just spend a lot of time trying to be diplomatic or neutral. [29/9/23, 11:54:20 pm] Oli: And if I'm not I seem to give a torrent of abuse! [29/9/23, 11:54:22 pm] Sam: Agh god I just think the problem is that you don’t care [29/9/23, 11:54:24 pm] Oli: I can be civil! [29/9/23, 11:54:45 pm] Oli: I thought I established some level of care when the parameters were clearer defined. [29/9/23, 11:54:48 pm] Oli: Or rather, a desire to care. [29/9/23, 11:55:11 pm] Sam: I think that is the appropriate tone, frankly - I’m not sure I’m interested, _in this context_, in whatever you might have to say that you might think warrants a non-diplomatic tone! [29/9/23, 11:55:31 pm] Sam: Well, with the exception of faulting my tone, which I think you’re entitled to oppose [29/9/23, 11:55:48 pm] Sam: But I’m not terribly interested in being opposed on the subject of ‘should we care about others’, haha [29/9/23, 11:55:48 pm] Oli: I was being silly though as well. [29/9/23, 11:56:05 pm] Oli: No, I don't intend to eek that one out again! [29/9/23, 11:56:09 pm] Sam: What do you mean? [29/9/23, 11:56:17 pm] Oli: I think we covered it quite well. [29/9/23, 11:56:23 pm] Oli: Well, I'd realised I was arguing against a false premise. [29/9/23, 11:56:36 pm] Sam: I think I said a few times that I didn’t think we’d reached any kind of conclusion and I suspected a lot was left unsettled and that that misunderstanding was not the main problem [29/9/23, 11:56:39 pm] Oli: I was arguing against what I'd assumed to be a DEMAND to get rid of everything and eat grass to make others better. [29/9/23, 11:56:52 pm] Oli: I didn't realise it was simply make it better for everyone. [29/9/23, 11:57:04 pm] Oli: But there is also this element. [29/9/23, 11:57:06 pm] Sam: ^ [29/9/23, 11:57:08 pm] Oli: To do with my own mental state, yes. [29/9/23, 11:57:35 pm] Oli: Oh yes. [29/9/23, 11:57:47 pm] Oli: A problem. One of manty. [29/9/23, 11:57:48 pm] Oli: many. [29/9/23, 11:58:08 pm] Oli: I shall try and address some other things now and I don't think there's any potential for argument. [29/9/23, 11:58:23 pm] Oli: This subject, the one we've discussed for hours, is the one for that. [29/9/23, 11:58:36 pm] Oli: Right. Yes. I MUST STOP being so wasteful of time. [29/9/23, 11:58:40 pm] Oli: I am now going to do it. [29/9/23, 11:58:49 pm] Oli: Just summary. [29/9/23, 11:59:03 pm] Oli: This is all probably highly insane but let's just see. [29/9/23, 11:59:25 pm] Oli: Should be my opening line on every meeting. ‎[30/9/23, 1:23:26 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [30/9/23, 1:23:49 am] Oli: Typing on laptop [30/9/23, 1:23:52 am] Oli: Now writing on phone [30/9/23, 1:24:10 am] Oli: Basically just contextualising what I think is the big point of those Qs [30/9/23, 1:24:18 am] Oli: Culture etc [30/9/23, 1:24:30 am] Oli: I’ve marked things out as skimmable [30/9/23, 1:24:34 am] Oli: And will mark out main bit [30/9/23, 1:24:36 am] Oli: To make it easier [30/9/23, 1:24:39 am] Oli: 🤣 [30/9/23, 1:30:20 am] Sam: Fair enoughs! 👀 [30/9/23, 2:23:57 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [30/9/23, 2:24:26 am] Oli: Hang on [30/9/23, 2:24:29 am] Oli: Just going to make it easier. [30/9/23, 2:28:22 am] Oli: OK. [30/9/23, 2:28:28 am] Oli: In order of question! Actually, I’ve turned it into three sections. The third section essentially, I think, has more of the psychological meat and unpacking in (and whilst it may focus on seemingly quite ridiculous things, for they were the focus of the questions asked, I think there are probably insights and points to be had there). The second section is of a bit of interest but definitely skimmable. [30/9/23, 2:28:34 am] Oli: ---SECTION 1--- I essentially covered most of them, so I'll just go onto the ones I didn't. It would be nice to rent a flat in London and I have wondered about it for a while. But it would take a bit of convincing. I don't know why my grandpa is so staid about expenditure or uses of money. Ironically, as I do for so many, or most, of my expenditure, I could get away with it if I had a particularly clever justification. He just doesn't like the idea of a wastrel being frivolous. Well, fuck, he's got one! It would devastate him to know that and I don't think I'd be very happy with myself! I always tell myself that one day I must do something worthwhile at least to satisfy him or the idea of his soul. [30/9/23, 2:28:41 am] Oli: ---SECTION 2--- --- slightly trivial but maybe interesting for quick skim; this and the next paragraph are identified and then a line is drawn under them --- The problem is maybe both with the coke and the money. Definitely the latter. No doubt about that. I have been much better over the last few months though, having fewer and fewer ridiculous multiple day benders with similarly ridiculous (as I know I can appear) people. It is obviously not a universalisable lifestyle. Not from the financial perspective but the health perspective and probably the mental perspective. I do not know about meth or your views on that but surely you have similar thoughts. Re a cheaper source of coke, I am not overly keen on that basis alone. I do believe that there is a minimum standard (maybe similar to supermarket price fixing) in the UK one can get for a certain price (if the dealers are serious about their business). I am concerned that there is a risk of untoward elements being mixed in if one goes cheaper (I now pay £60 per bag to two dealers, different locations, which is OK given that they actually at least gives 0.5s or 0.6s, unlike the last one who was giving 0.3s, though he did, when I bought in bulk, only charge £30 a bag (£250 for 7). Yesterday I paid £240 for 4 but the quantity was greater. Of course dealers aren't going to kill their customers but a lot of these things are mixed with things which just give an unpleasant taste. Annex I. I am not one of their protoges. I don't know if he meant that for certain or if he was having a joke. I possibly give off that air sometimes but it is just one of the ways I behave socially, clowning around, and people can react in a way which maybe they have done (but I don't think so). I am hardly their bum boy or whatever you would call it. I'm not indentured to them! There is a somewhat spiteful or reserved (not the full picture) element to this description. The Italian Count, the man whose Instagram messages I sent which you didn't like, is not their protoge but happened to go to school with them and is a friend. As I said above, I do not really know them at all and only vaguely know their brother-in-law (their set feeds into similar sets sometimes). This is not relevant at all and I don't see why you should be interested in this but I am just answering the question is he right. This and the coke diatribe I've just written are probably quite silly. Maybe the whole Q and A is silly but I'm just seeing where it goes, and I will add some additional (brief) points if the questions don't provoke them. Enough of this rubbish. I can hear you quite rightly saying that (this is akin to making you watch me paint my walls). [30/9/23, 2:29:15 am] Oli: Section 3 is madly long. I will divide it into thirds. [30/9/23, 2:29:52 am] Oli: ---SECTION 3--- ---PART 1 OF 3--- I don't quite know why I trivialise things by describing people as 'rich' who patently aren't part of what we would understand, through knowing the dividing line in these worlds, as the rich set. The people I describe in that way are by no means poor. I think when I use that word loosely I mean that there is less of an, either implied or stated, emotional control element to the way they can handle their finances. Freedom. I should not expect others to understand the ways in which I conceptualise things. I also have some investments and my grandpa tries to involve himself with those, even though at one point, some years ago, I, through sheer luck, managed to avoid losing too much money on the Woodford Fund (I actually forget what that is or was now). He feels that there is a natural entitlement and to some extent there is. I also clarified some other things to do with this question above I think more or less when it was asked, so that's OK. But I shouldn't imply that money is being thrown at me, that's not the case. NOW ONTO PERHAPS THE MORE REVEALING AND INTERESTING ASPECTS. You don't buy the idea that I hang onto these people solely because they are around: homeless people are also around. Yes. I should develop my thoughts on this further because everyone is 'around' so that statement gets us nowhere. I think this is essentially the segue into the whole basic element I want to try and get across now. E.g. why do I opine that my own bad experiences make me want to hang around such and such people. No, I don't think that. But I can be quite basic in my choice of company (as you know all too well by now). As I've arrogantly said a few times in our recent chats, there just aren't enough people with whom one can have genuinely stimulating conversations (you could say quality over quantity, which, ironically, yes hypocrite me, I've often gone on about). In some respect, at least, I do believe that a faint 'quality' element is satisfied, though this is deeply mentally provincial, insofar as there is at least a common overlap of backgrounds and cultural values, however vague this is. I realise that this is terribly insular, but I'd hope you would agree that we are prone to such behaviour. The conversation in these groups can often be objectively quite boring and is rarely of the intellectual apex I've described a few sentences prior. In fact, on this subject, it's not just me to whom the question should be asked but the whole fucking lot of them: why bother? What are you doing? The conversations are often circular and rarely if ever significantly deviate (school memories, what X or Y family are doing now, what they did, who their ancestors are, who they are related to contemporarily, jobs, sometimes). To some extent this is because the people are in their early to mid 20s and as average representatives of that age group just don't come out with anything more but it's also nuanced to a particular set. Still, there is a mutual reciprocity in these groups, and even if, as you rightly note to Damien, some of my interlocutors are markedly new this reciprocity is a strong cultural bond. I am not trying to say that I am equivalent to Lord Q or Sir A (far from it) but there is an acknowledgment of shared values. This, to you, I am sure sounds utterly pointless, and you would be right in saying that, but these things are very deeply ingrained. Now that is, I recognise totally and always had problems with myself over this (I often spend my time, as you may be gathering with total confusion, putting myself into various philosophical traps), highly provincially minded of me, AND I can totally jettison this (what I make out to be a) 'need' in the right context when there is something more meaningful at stake (OK to me that is mostly esoteric nonsense like philosophy or going to something like the Royal Geographical Society) but on a day-to-day level I seek out this stasis. To this you are perfectly entitled to reply that, based on what I describe, I might as well just start sitting in bus queues and I would soon find that it does the same for me as the above. Or any other person. I stand by my point about the mutual culture. I don't mean oh yes I have a big palace. It's a simpler mutual identification which is acknowledged, very consciously, by all of these people. Yes, it's playing the violins as the Titanic sinks (or at this point attempting to have an underwater concert). There is a hell of a lot of (not resentment, that's the wrong word entirely and conveys the wrong concept) antipathy to the basis culture in which all of these people start out and participate in (from the top to the bottom of this strata - and I would probably even include some of the haut bourgeois in this culture who have those connections). Many people from this world who aren't prisoners to their own mind don't give a fuck about this but I dare say there's some other cultural tribe to which they subscribe. There always is. I wonder what yours is and what the habits and customs of it are and if you feel that this is something which to an extent determines, or can be let to determine, elements of your life? I think the point about the culture of the world I am describing is that it is almost overly conscious. I am a hybrid in this respect because I do find many aspects of it to be incredibly pernicious for one's own mental health and detrimental to one's development (forward progression, which we now all mostly assume to be natural) but there is something about the cosiness of it which I, like a rural simpleton or a pig in shit, like. And, as a result, even though I find many of these people to be complete and utter simpletons, that is the weird pull of the tribe. Why let that determine your life? I agree with the spirit of that leading question. I don't know. It is very scary to be so wholly free from all of these cultural pulls. One can try for a hybrid approach, where one registers it but remains a part of it for one's own basic emotional satiation (my grandpa is like this I think and he explicitly hates that culture yet for all his protests he wouldn't live by anything else). I think other social cultures are similar but are less overtly fixed so can unwittingly dress themselves up in cleverer and perhaps less offensive ways. [30/9/23, 2:30:15 am] Oli: ---SECTION 3--- ---PART 2 OF 3--- Now to be incredibly specific about what I mean when I say 'the tribe'. I am in no way, shape or form intending to make out that I am naturally au fait with high society, or what is best described as the young fringes of it, the Bright Young Things. In fact, as I said recently, quite the reverse. I am from a mostly culturally provincial background, who mostly fit into the minor echelons of that ever elusive caste the landed (now mostly landless) gentry, with a bit of haut bourgeois intellect sprinkled in for good measure in the immediate context (Wilson side, Hahn Jewish side though they more or less moved in those rarefied educated Jewish circles). My father's mother, i.e. my grandmother (as I said I have one grandparent and one grandmother still alive on different sides), was born into a relatively grand Hungarian family (Almásy, the English Patient etc.) but she knew little to nothing of that (emigre etc.) so to that extent I am the combination on both sides, of extinct social tribes (the Jewish intelligentsia and Hungarian whatevers and the Irish people who are English yet desperately trying to be Irish who are akin to some random pensioner living on a bench at Heathrow after missing their fight a decade ago). This was certainly, after the cultural basis to which I allude (identity overlaps and whatnot), my subjective experience of this culture and probably has helped instil this nostalgia for a time which quite literally imprisons most of my relations, many of whom never even lived in it. My great-aunt once remarked, after I expressed an interest in visiting some Irish big house open to the public (mostly the gardens), 'Oh you wouldn't like it: it's Victorian.' It's a thoroughly haphazard context. Going on from that, the various abuses to which I was subject (for the most part, I say anyway, I think it's taught me a lot about how to cope with stress and not take things personally and has been a good preparation for the nasty world) perhaps saw me taking this element of my identity and play it from the rooftops on a trumpet (as a lot do) as a defence mechanism (I know little to nothing about the specifics of this as we just discussed). And I suspect, my grandpa has said the same multiple times, which is probably why I register this, that I didn't realise when that defence mechanism was no longer needed and am now to some (or to a great, depending on what you feel) extent turning a defence mechanism into a problem creator. When people talk about abuses etc. they often carry some depression with them. I don't really, but I think I like to elicit sympathy like a squid defending itself if I feel helpless, which would be very rare because I seldom get into this with people on such a neutral level. Not because I don't like it but because it's just too much for most people to contemplate. I am perfectly fine with it (mostly). It's like turning off the light when going to sleep. There may be repressed parts of the conscious, I am sure there are, but I don't know. I'm trying to be as open as I can to see if anything shows. I felt like alluding to it when you discussed that you'd been raped (can find if you don't recall that chat) but you either weren't open to the possibility of me sharing that or just totally didn't expect it. This is what, I don't want to sound like a petulant teenager, I think I can describe as you not actually knowing me. Why would you? We have probably known each other for 3-4 years now. I think I knew of you for a year before that because I was always, for some reason, on the online mailing lists for your parties (maybe Kieran). But, as you said yourself, or alluded, I think one of the reasons why you haven't consciously tried to get to know me (why should anyone? but I am contextualising the 'friendship' or inchoate friendship) is that this element of my personality is either off-putting or a barrier to entry (re friendship), and I have seen this being the case for other people who behave similarly. As you register, it's not a total trap for me though and I do, as I've repeatedly said, register the pointless of all of it, and the potential for limitless freedom, but I fall back into the easy option and in doing so sound like a cop out, an 'also ran'. Whilst I also register this as a potentially valid point, I think that to an extent it is, for most basic human life (I don't want to sound like a charlatan, I am not trying to make this sound like fact if it's not) this is standard. However much we love our individuality or limitless potential, for most of us, the idea of the tribe, or A TRIBE, beckons. Does it for you? I ask again. I'm sure it does. Not only that, but, no grudges here, by the way, because it's a logical assumption to make if you don't know much about someone (or rather if you only know very select information), there was a feeling, which you always mentioned en passant, but which I suspect has increased over the years or in recent months, that a lot of this is essentially nothing more than a contrivance. An ingratiation offensive. My connection to 'these people', with whom half I proclaim kinship, is the result of finding and glomming onto (wonderful!) Etonians. Interesting point. First quick point, my connection to some of them is quite recent but some of them I have at least vaguely known for at least a decade. Beyond that, the thing about these tribes, even if most of them are indeed, as we both know, far superior, is that there are always people or families in common, which lubricates one's social journey, even if the lubricators are decidedly at the provincial end of grandeur. People in very flashy society sets do indeed tend to be flakey with people and pick and choose more than a desperate housewife in the mall. I register that. I do not particularly seek out that exalted set (though I must confess to finding it peculiarly interesting and psychologically thought-provoking), and with the people in that category whom I know (very much either on the cusp of it or people whom I only know in a very particular context which is such that the prospect of changing that is incredibly slim) I get on with in a happy la-di-da way but it would take a lot for me to put such a reliance on any of those particular people. History is riddled with examples of people who fuck up in that pursuit. Funnily, I always assumed you to have a particular obsession with public schools and Eton, it being one of the most recognisable ones. I am probably wrong to think that and maybe to an extent you spoke about these things a lot because you assumed it was a point of common ground. I don't think I have an obsession for Etonians, of whom I seem to know an inordinate number. To an extent, which goes back to the cultural point I made, most people in these environs happened to go there. And it is true that I do actually seem to have a high proportion of them in my closer family network (1st and 2nd cousins of my grandpa mostly, with whose families we keep in perhaps inordinately close touch, many of whom follow in their family footsteps). What I will say, which is perhaps to some extent why this can be an understandable presentation, is that over the last year, since having got into cahoots with Firsov and Firsovian humour (very similar) the focus, satirical, on these concepts has significantly increased, sometimes to the extent that everything is a joke about such and such. A particularly British quandry and I do find Firsov's persona in that context wonderfully hilarious. Perhaps this is one of the ways that we Brits can momentarily escape from tribal ties? Oh, another funny point, prep schools. Maybe like you, I went to quite a number of schools (I surely significantly more than you) for a multitude of reasons: a peripatetic existence. One of which was called Cheam, which maybe you know, many Ludgrove people do. Now that is obviously one of the feeder schools (it was my uncle's starting destination before his school career, which for him ended after GCSEs, I wonder whether they called them O levels or had a different term). I do keep in touch with some people there (I actually, this wouldn't surprise you, sought touch with some of them, in a normal way (!), many years later). Many of these people are Etonians. I do, like you genuinely do, find educational institutions fascinating but I seriously do not think that I have an unhealthy and unnatural obsession in the way that is implied, and maybe you don't either. [30/9/23, 2:30:29 am] Oli: ---SECTION 3--- ---PART 3 OF 3--- Longwinded. Regarding the Ludgrove point, sorry about that. I am not quite sure what I was trying to achieve there. I did not say it to Damien in a wholly accusatory manner. I simply said that one of that cohort of people (it wasn't Lord Tonsure and he actually wasn't an Etonian) did not register you. What I didn't clock was the years above or below you they would be and that makes all the difference. It's not as though this is holy grail territory anyway but I don't want to imply that I think you are a fraud. I don't at all. Incidentally, another funny point on that, I think the Murphy set, into which Damien fell, and some other odd poufs, who overlap with some of the parties you attend, were convinced that you claimed to be, somehow, a Rothschild, and didn't quite say it in a clocking tone but that was the implication. Maybe you do have a connection there, but that's just a funny random tangent I recalled on this subject, and I am not saying this in any way to belittle you! You are right that I do perhaps have a somewhat excessive concept of 'family', but that is not limited to me. We have always behaved like that, though I do go above and beyond. I know this sounds ridiculous but it is genuinely true that I quite often meet new people in these contexts (even pubs sometimes) who, because they MUST at some point get onto this topic, have mutual fig leaves however many generations ago. The cut-off point for me is the start of the 1800s. I think that is sufficiently close (the relationships there would be between the 4th [maybe 5th] and 3rd cousin stages I think) when one considers how far away the 1000s were. To most people this is a non-starter. It is more of an element in this culture, probably for tribal security reasons (insecure buggers). But the point is, or conclusion of this segment, that there are actually multiple family connections (both blood links and, the most obvious, friend overlaps) to the people you describe and although very much at the tail-end of that world there is something. I am not trying to tell you how grand I am. I am genuinely not. There are FAR MORE people who are infinitely grander. But I am attempting to set the record straight. You may find this reliance on these things silly, and you are entitled to that. I always liked you, in our initial interactions, before I probably properly gave off this image when you got to know me just enough, because you were a breath of fresh air. So I do like new things. Often they are the best. Why do I play the clown often? Live in, for the most part, a non-world, out of selfish comfort, and seem to know it is all wrong yet do it anyway? These are psychological questions which can be answered in many ways and I don’t know what we do with these. You said I can ask you anything I’d like as well. Without trying to stress you, I think I’d just like to know a bit more about you as a person, whatever you think appropriate for our probable degree of friendship (given the obvious incompatibilities). [30/9/23, 2:30:38 am] Oli: Bloody hell. Here we are. And actually there are no criticisms there at all. [30/9/23, 2:30:56 am] Oli: I wonder what the effect of all of this is but to my mind I just felt that some, however minor, air clearing was needed. [30/9/23, 2:32:30 am] Oli: Section 1 is very short. Section 2 non-essential and skimmable. [30/9/23, 2:34:47 am] Oli: I think it's all mostly quite easily readable. Maybe you've fallen asleep, if so good on you! I am now sorting out things for tomorrow's mad journey! [30/9/23, 2:49:18 am] Oli: I think, or hope, it essentially provides some workable basis for something or anything. I do think people with peculiar minds should try and support one another. [30/9/23, 2:52:32 am] Oli: By the way I notice I made the odd grammatical error or failed to put a comma in the right place but I suspect that’s the time of day it is! [30/9/23, 2:52:34 am] Oli: 🙏 [30/9/23, 2:57:27 am] Oli: now sound asleep! ‎[30/9/23, 2:08:37 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [30/9/23, 2:08:37 pm] Oli: In short, when using this app, you are at the mercy of your least benevolent contact. [30/9/23, 2:09:06 pm] Oli: Apparently WhatsApp is out to get us like everything else. That would make sense. [30/9/23, 2:24:38 pm] Sam: Sorry, just reading your messages and taking some notes! [30/9/23, 2:28:02 pm] Oli: Haha lots of it must be quite nuts I don’t know! [30/9/23, 2:28:20 pm] Oli: I should really take more notes too! [30/9/23, 6:37:44 pm] Oli: Now am nearly int’ place… near Taunton now. Shall go to a Thai place in Exeter beforehand. Better than British food! [30/9/23, 11:27:12 pm] Sam: Ok, sorry, slight delay, had a bath etc. Points in reply: - You say you spend time with these people because they are family, or at least from your culture. You then give a definition of 'family' that would count 1/4 of the UK ((2^8)(4^8)=~17e6) and you say your culture is 'the reverse' of your culture. - You say you like them because of the 'quality' of their conversation. You later say they are 'complete simpletons'. - These texts contain a lot of words but somehow don't really say much. - My impression is that you have an elliptical family connection to that world, you grew up preoccupied with genealogy and class, you met some people and went in an 'upward' direction, you now unarguably have a lot of exalted friends, and a coke habit, and a complex about imposture, and nowhere to go from here, and it hasn't made you happy. And so you're texting me. [1/10/23, 1:14:30 am] Sam: And on the points that are more about me: - Here's my life history. Ask and I'll add more. Share anywhere and with anyone. I have always found it far easier to be maximally transparent (limited only by others' privacy, eg in sharing chats). https://www.icloud.com/notes/0f4ew8ckwvNrvk0zHu7pooH7Q - I don't like Etonians. I sometimes like _people_ who _are_ Etonians. - What Eoghain says is technically true, through my paternal grandmother's mother. I'd never have said it myself. My ex Alex might have. - Damien didn’t repeat whatever you said about my prep school - it was just obvious from the manner of your questions. But good to have it confirmed 😉 - I tend to assume most gays have been raped. I’d not be surprised by that. - I should add that Eoghain was always very lovely to me. I went to 2 of his parties. At #2 a guest made some racially tinged remark to me. My friend Etienne overheard and was _furious_, and went to talk to Eoghain who threw the guy out. Though poor guy - was obv just trying to edgy and right wing, and overstepped the line. ‎ [1/10/23, 1:20:05 am] Oli: Just at party but shall attend soon [1/10/23, 1:21:02 am] Sam: Cool cool! It's quite short and I'll try to trim it down more in the next few mins [1/10/23, 1:21:33 am] Oli: Don’t worry; send what you feel! [1/10/23, 1:21:50 am] Sam: Oh I just mean stylistically really! Won't trim points [1/10/23, 1:22:06 am] Sam: Linked life history is not short at all, hence the separate note [1/10/23, 2:13:00 am] Sam: Can't possibly point towards _more_* [1/10/23, 4:31:39 am] Oli: Now just sorting self out it’s sort of ending here haha madness [1/10/23, 4:33:19 am] Oli: Now walking around with people to place ‎[1/10/23, 4:45:18 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[1/10/23, 4:45:31 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[1/10/23, 4:45:55 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[1/10/23, 4:46:03 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[1/10/23, 4:46:11 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [1/10/23, 4:53:32 am] Sam: Ah yes I've not done that since the sixth form. My friend Arran whose dad was a big-time coke dealer (the one I mentioned when Slape was talking bollocks about coke at the party) did it with me over a lunch break in St Paul's churchyard. I'm amused to hear it's still called Calvin Klein. I assumed that was his slightly Essexy lower-class slang for it. ‎[1/10/23, 4:57:52 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 4:58:14 am] Sam: His dad was a sweetheart actually. One time one of his (dad's) friends turned out to have molested a local retarded boy, and Arran woke up to his dad standing over him with a knife, saying "alright where the fuck is he? I'm gonna fuck him up [etc]". It ended up in a bizarre police chase and (I dunno if luckily) the dad not murdering this man. [1/10/23, 4:58:31 am] Sam: Nice cat! ‎[1/10/23, 5:06:34 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 5:34:16 am] Oli: And it’s another of those bloody parties. But a good time. Though another note in the diary. All fun though if I think about it but aftermath good god! [1/10/23, 5:34:25 am] Oli: I am becoming more compos mentis ‎[1/10/23, 5:35:39 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 5:37:08 am] Sam: 'Those parties'? [1/10/23, 5:46:27 am] Oli: Aftermath of big coke/other sesh [1/10/23, 5:46:42 am] Oli: Fun and then question it! But in the moment it was fun! [1/10/23, 5:48:42 am] Oli: Christ [1/10/23, 5:48:53 am] Oli: At least I have something to feel better about. [1/10/23, 5:48:59 am] Oli: My state now is better than that! [1/10/23, 5:49:08 am] Sam: Ah yes! [1/10/23, 5:49:10 am] Oli: He should be a lesson to everyone. [1/10/23, 5:49:20 am] Sam: I was about to say: sorry, that was cruel [1/10/23, 5:50:05 am] Sam: And also actually pretty much what you just said: that I hoped it _was_ cause to dislike your past behaviour, but equally that human beings are not set in stone [1/10/23, 5:50:41 am] Oli: Easier to say things like that about people in the present. I was thinking this earlier. [1/10/23, 5:50:42 am] Sam: (I don't mean to sound sanctimonious or sermonising - I am _always_ picking over my past choices) [1/10/23, 5:51:39 am] Sam: What do you mean? [1/10/23, 5:52:02 am] Oli: When they’re not dead! [1/10/23, 5:52:12 am] Oli: One wouldn’t say that about the dead. [1/10/23, 5:52:25 am] Oli: When someone is living for some reason there are less filters. [1/10/23, 5:52:37 am] Oli: It sounds awful to read when they are gone. [1/10/23, 5:52:56 am] Sam: Ah yes! I think because the point of moral judgements is to encourage change, and when they're dead it's useless and a bit spiteful. [1/10/23, 5:53:33 am] Sam: Though I think your initial Instagram (or whatever it is, I don't use it) post was similarly supercilious, lol [1/10/23, 5:53:56 am] Oli: Yes I have thought about this. [1/10/23, 5:54:11 am] Oli: Just instantly documenting things and without care. [1/10/23, 5:54:37 am] Oli: Then once something happens to a person like that one looks back and thinks ‘oh god’ to say the least. [1/10/23, 5:55:13 am] Sam: I remember saying oh god when you first showed me that video, back when we were in Paddington [1/10/23, 5:55:35 am] Sam: Of a staircase or something and Nicholas and him out of frame discussing something or other [1/10/23, 5:55:40 am] Sam: Presumably his ouster [1/10/23, 5:56:29 am] Sam: Granted, I can entirely see that if you'd been dealing with his presumably frustrating behaviour for some time then it's easy to turn into 'hate' mode [1/10/23, 5:57:11 am] Sam: I'm more prone to it than most, and you're more prone to it than me. And then Damien is that little speck on the horizon way out there, haha. [1/10/23, 5:57:14 am] Oli: Yes that was what it was. [1/10/23, 5:57:42 am] Sam: Except for Martin. I still just don't understand how he suddenly turned into a bloody saint there. [1/10/23, 5:58:24 am] Sam: Yeah I'm sorry, I don't mean to be cruel. I wasn't quite thinking it through properly when I sent it. Maybe that was a bit much. [1/10/23, 5:59:35 am] Sam: Though Instagram ... yeah I don't mean to be censorious but I was a bit taken aback somehow by that one. Can't remember if I expressed it. [1/10/23, 5:59:51 am] Oli: I think this is true. [1/10/23, 5:59:56 am] Sam: It also took my mind back to the girl who killed herself in July, I think, whom you mentioned in the Slape chat [1/10/23, 6:00:07 am] Sam: And that time I was the one who was inhuman about it [1/10/23, 6:00:14 am] Sam: I think about that often [1/10/23, 6:01:54 am] Oli: The problem with viewing everything as filmable. [1/10/23, 6:02:18 am] Oli: Which was that? ‎[1/10/23, 6:03:43 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[1/10/23, 6:03:44 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[1/10/23, 6:03:44 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 6:04:04 am] Oli: Oh yes! [1/10/23, 6:04:07 am] Oli: Fuck [1/10/23, 6:04:11 am] Oli: And that video of Firsov [1/10/23, 6:04:14 am] Oli: He hated her [1/10/23, 6:04:19 am] Oli: Hence my comment [1/10/23, 6:04:33 am] Oli: He once gave her a good row [1/10/23, 6:04:40 am] Oli: He was distressed by it when she died [1/10/23, 6:04:46 am] Oli: It was quite concerning [1/10/23, 6:04:53 am] Oli: They are going down quite quickly now! ‎[1/10/23, 6:04:54 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 6:05:28 am] Sam: Have you read Durkheim's book? [1/10/23, 6:05:40 am] Oli: Oh dear [1/10/23, 6:05:41 am] Oli: Yes [1/10/23, 6:05:46 am] Oli: Emile [1/10/23, 6:05:46 am] Oli: No! [1/10/23, 6:05:49 am] Oli: I have it somewhere [1/10/23, 6:06:25 am] Oli: Deary me [1/10/23, 6:06:48 am] Oli: Not good [1/10/23, 6:08:38 am] Sam: God, yeah. Bad. Dehumanising. I do think it's slightly less sad for not being suicide, and for being so absurdly preventable by just not having the brain of a potted plant, but still it's a shame. [1/10/23, 6:09:39 am] Oli: This is true [1/10/23, 6:10:56 am] Sam: Anyway, I replied to your points. I've written out my entire life history and background in the linked note. I'll put anything else in there if you ask me the questions. Hell, I might even make it public somewhere. I need one of those 'internet profile' thingies. Actually goddammit I'm gonna make a new website for myself and I'll put this on there. (I guess that limits what I can say about drugs unless it's a personal-only thing..). [1/10/23, 6:11:36 am] Sam: Though at the moment I coincidentally haven't said anything about drugs in that note, partly since I figured you already knew it and partly since I figured you were asking.... [one sec] [1/10/23, 6:11:53 am] Oli: I shall have a read. Thank you for this. [1/10/23, 6:12:46 am] Oli: A long hard look at oneself is needed after messages like that. [1/10/23, 6:15:24 am] Oli: I have your note in my ‘notes’ now. ‎[1/10/23, 6:15:43 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 6:15:50 am] Sam: ... that ^ [1/10/23, 6:16:34 am] Oli: What is this related to? [1/10/23, 6:18:27 am] Oli: The cat has now buggered off. It was clearly not a stray. [1/10/23, 6:18:37 am] Sam: Incidentally, while looking for that message (I thought I'd sent it to someone else) I realised I have a friend, a sorta Grindr person who I ended up chatting for months with, who is into politics stuff and is frighteningly quick with sorts large-scale political/economic/social policy analysis/prediction/consideration/whatever. He's in truth probably the only person I've ever felt seriously challenged by when talking about this stuff. Sweet guy. Microbiology postdoc at Balliol. Does stuff on neuronal firing and calcium channels etc. I could put you in touch. You both have ample time to discuss! (I don't!) ‎ [1/10/23, 6:19:00 am] Sam: Do you mean what am I relating it to in this conversation now, or what was it originally related to? [1/10/23, 6:20:33 am] Oli: I don’t see how it follows from the quoted point! [1/10/23, 6:21:02 am] Oli: Maybe I am not thinking properly. [1/10/23, 6:22:13 am] Oli: He sounds terrifyingly clever. [1/10/23, 6:22:14 am] Sam: It was the '[one sec]', if unclear. It's functioning as the end of my last sentence. In other words I figured you were asking about the components of social class and not stuff like drug taking. [1/10/23, 6:22:46 am] Oli: Did I write this to you? [1/10/23, 6:23:19 am] Oli: Oh I didn’t recall it so it just confused me but that is probably because of the silly mental state; I usually have a very good memory! ‎[1/10/23, 6:23:28 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 6:24:01 am] Sam: I just figured you two could keep each other company! But then again he might appreciate some time for his actual work.... [1/10/23, 6:24:19 am] Oli: Oh or you mean I was asking something similar to THAT. [1/10/23, 6:25:14 am] Sam: I meant I figured you _were_ asking that, yes, haha [1/10/23, 6:26:01 am] Oli: Oh asking that about you generally and not in relation to drugs. [1/10/23, 6:26:34 am] Sam: Yes, exactly - well, I don't think drugs really overlap with social class. People of all social classes do all drugs 🤷 [1/10/23, 6:26:38 am] Oli: I didn’t actually ask you anything about drugs (I don’t think). I might’ve in that brief titbit about coke. I probably did. [1/10/23, 6:27:27 am] Oli: Yes! [1/10/23, 6:28:10 am] Sam: Coke users like to pretend they're all upper class because they waste £80 on a bit of talcum powder or tube-map-wrapped polystyrene from Camden Lock, and everyone else likes to pretend junkies and crackheads are only lower class, but it's not true. Plenty of people at plenty of Harvester pubs doing lines of gak, and plenty of people doing heroin on private planes. [1/10/23, 6:29:11 am] Oli: I met an American girl the other day (a few weeks ago) at one of these after parties who seemed to think it a very exalted thing to sniff! [1/10/23, 6:29:28 am] Sam: Yeah the drugs point was just the end of my train of thought. ("I should make this all public" -> "oh no, then I shouldn't mention drugs" -> "oh well, coincidentally I haven't") [1/10/23, 6:29:30 am] Oli: I clocked it as misguided as do you here. [1/10/23, 6:30:06 am] Sam: It's pathetic. Teenage behaviour. "I am cool because I do X or Y drug". As I said to Ryan... ‎[1/10/23, 6:30:40 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 6:30:56 am] Sam: Last message mainly but rest to make sense of it [1/10/23, 6:31:46 am] Oli: Sadly yes [1/10/23, 6:32:32 am] Sam: I have deep regret for giving him meth and I am very very lucky that he didn't take this. And I have repeatedly done similar things with other people (out of kindness / a desire to make them happy but in an unhealthy way without sufficient care) and frequently got very lucky and I ought to think about it. [1/10/23, 6:32:44 am] Oli: Gak is everywhere at pubs! ‎[1/10/23, 6:34:28 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 6:33:51 am] Oli: I remember you regretting it when I met you both for the first time. [1/10/23, 6:35:12 am] Sam: It was moral luck, plain and simple. Same as when I gave Louis oxycodone for his back pain and to see if he enjoyed it (don't even tell me, I know) and thank god he didn't. [1/10/23, 6:35:38 am] Sam: And then the one thing he got addicted to - ketamine, after taking it at my flat when I was out - wasn't in fairness really my fault. Life is strange. [1/10/23, 6:36:13 am] Sam: (He was so badly addicted that on one hospital visit they told him he was near the point of needing a permanent catheter. Never seen anything like it.) ‎[1/10/23, 6:36:49 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 6:37:46 am] Sam: My general impression is that ketamine is remarkably un-bad for you with the marked exception of the bladder, which is still realistically fine with casual use but heavy long-ish use will pretty much destroy it. [1/10/23, 6:38:10 am] Sam: (I mean very very very heavy - if you were anywhere near that point you'd know about it.) [1/10/23, 6:38:50 am] Oli: Yes thankfully I didn’t do as much as I once did at a December party but am again left thinking that it’s best not to touch! [1/10/23, 6:39:13 am] Sam: I'm talking like several grams a day - not anything you'd be likely to do! [1/10/23, 6:39:24 am] Sam: And even that only if it's over a period of months or a year or more [1/10/23, 6:39:40 am] Oli: Yes that is extreme stuff given what even a small amount does! [1/10/23, 6:40:12 am] Sam: You must've heard my tripartite theory of drugs, right? [1/10/23, 6:40:33 am] Oli: I don’t recall it but we have probably discussed it multiple times! [1/10/23, 6:40:39 am] Oli: Tripartite! [1/10/23, 6:43:24 am] Sam: That you have: - 'drunk' highs: alcohol, GHB, ketamine - 'amped up' highs: coke, mephedrone, meth, etc - 'warm' highs: heroin, valium The drunk highs are, I gather from Roman, GABAergic drugs (i.e. acting on the GABA receptors). Warm highs mostly act on the mu opioid receptor. Stimulant highs mostly on dopamine receptors. Anyone who's into one drug in one category will tend to be into (as in, prone to addictive use of) the others. So Louis was always partial to drinking, and therefore ketamine followed quite naturally. [1/10/23, 6:44:18 am] Sam: Not to say many people aren't into several, or different ones at different periods of their life or for different purposes. Eg I've moved mainly from warm highs to amped up highs, but never been into drunkness at all really. [1/10/23, 6:44:32 am] Oli: Someone tonight gave me a theory of highs I remember now! It only involves two but one was the stimulant dopamine [1/10/23, 6:44:40 am] Sam: I note very many heroin addict friends of mine are teetotal, actually. Roman, Phil, etc. [1/10/23, 6:45:35 am] Oli: Yes drunkness is not very appealing at all. I am not quite sure why but it has a very bad image! [1/10/23, 6:46:04 am] Sam: Probably it's the first and last you'd combine. Stimulants and depressants. Though depressants like heroin or alcohol can have paradoxical stimulant effects at low doses (hell, most alcohol use is within that category, as vs Damien's sort) so for that and other reasons I don't feel that's a very good model. [1/10/23, 6:46:20 am] Oli: I think it was! [1/10/23, 6:46:32 am] Oli: Stimulants and depressants, yes. [1/10/23, 6:46:34 am] Sam: But some are very into it, that kind of 'losing yourself' state [1/10/23, 6:46:55 am] Oli: Most people who don’t do other drugs just resort to this. [1/10/23, 6:47:14 am] Sam: Would've been dopamine and serotonin probably then [1/10/23, 6:48:18 am] Sam: Or, like this stoner kid Jonah in the year below me at school on whom I had a huge crush, nutmeg [1/10/23, 6:48:35 am] Sam: He lived in fucking jew land in Hertfordshire where I guess it was hard to get drugs [1/10/23, 6:48:45 am] Sam: And apparently you can get high on nutmeg [1/10/23, 6:49:08 am] Sam: Having heard his trip report, it sounded intensely unpleasant and I would not recommend it ‎[1/10/23, 6:51:19 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 6:53:51 am] Sam: Aww I have to say I admire Past Sam here [1/10/23, 6:54:01 am] Sam: Strong supporter of sweet relationships [1/10/23, 6:54:43 am] Sam: You and Xander included!! (I think I was underslept the other day - I still think he seems wonderful and you should very much love and protect him, but I no longer feel so weirdly upset about it) [1/10/23, 6:54:53 am] Sam: Maybe a bit like pregnancy hormones and emotions etc [1/10/23, 7:04:44 am] Sam: Also genuinely he is much better looking than Timmy or probably me. ('Probably' only because it's hard to judge one's own looks - but certainly I'd consider him very out of my league.) You are very very bloody lucky and you should learn from my experience and find another hobby besides courtship. I cannot say this strongly enough!! ‎ [1/10/23, 7:07:17 am] Sam: Also lol I just stumbled on this old screenshot from an old chat with Roman: ‎[1/10/23, 7:07:24 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 7:07:44 am] Sam: 'our age group' — nice save there! he totally bought it! [1/10/23, 7:12:01 am] Oli: Trying to form thoughts but the cat is outside barking again! 🤣 [1/10/23, 7:12:28 am] Sam: Sorry, is this your cat, you mean? Your house? Or some random house and cat? [1/10/23, 7:12:51 am] Oli: Exeter friends’. A random cat’ [1/10/23, 7:12:55 am] Oli: Totally random! [1/10/23, 7:13:01 am] Sam: I was about to say [1/10/23, 7:13:11 am] Sam: Surely your boyfriend could afford a more prestigious cat [1/10/23, 7:13:26 am] Sam: (I'm just joking / it was such an excellent sentence I had to say it) [1/10/23, 7:14:12 am] Sam: Something unduly funny about the word 'prestigious' applied to a cat ‎ [1/10/23, 7:15:14 am] Sam: Also, what's it doing outside Barking? It's gone quite far! Perhaps you should go and collect it! [1/10/23, 7:15:32 am] Sam: Does it go often to Essex? [1/10/23, 7:15:36 am] Oli: Meowing [1/10/23, 7:15:38 am] Sam: Is this a regular occurrence? [1/10/23, 7:15:41 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [1/10/23, 7:15:42 am] Sam: You say 'again' [1/10/23, 7:15:46 am] Sam: (Lol) [1/10/23, 7:16:01 am] Oli: Yes it has been meowing for the entirety of our acquaintance! [1/10/23, 7:16:12 am] Sam: Sounds like Tig and Pig [1/10/23, 7:16:21 am] Sam: I should have got less fucking prestigious cats ‎[1/10/23, 7:16:56 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 7:17:50 am] Sam: 'persistent in demanding attention' - diplomatic way of saying 'fucking needy and annoying' [1/10/23, 7:19:31 am] Sam: Anyway let me know what you make of my latest Martin Luther esque litany of devastating criticisms ‎[1/10/23, 7:41:41 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[1/10/23, 7:41:41 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 7:43:38 am] Sam: But, god, I'd genuinely forgotten I was capable of talking about anything more than "it is good to not be selfish" [1/10/23, 7:44:56 am] Sam: Or "one can do better with one's life than sit around drinking with utter mediocrities and laughing at their baldness" [1/10/23, 7:45:23 am] Sam: jesus fried chicken [1/10/23, 11:05:22 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [1/10/23, 11:06:10 am] Oli: Now on way to Exmoor to glom onto one more too and his wife. 60 year olds! [1/10/23, 11:06:12 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [1/10/23, 11:06:53 am] Oli: Will be a clearer few days hopefully as going to stop this repetitive drug lunacy for a bit [1/10/23, 11:07:10 am] Oli: More, hopefully less annoying, later. [1/10/23, 11:14:58 am] Oli: Maybe just ‘another’ here too [1/10/23, 11:15:55 am] Oli: Thank you for the biography, which I’ve read. I will have another look later. [1/10/23, 5:36:12 pm] Sam: Happy glomming! [1/10/23, 5:36:26 pm] Sam: Happy continuing! [1/10/23, 5:37:08 pm] Sam: Happy annoying! ‎[1/10/23, 5:45:34 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 5:46:22 pm] Oli: Not sure he’s ever heard of a Harvester pub let alone been to one (I have only seen them when driving to and fro from St Albans as it’s where Firsov lives). Gak appears to be a ubiquitous term! [1/10/23, 5:47:02 pm] Sam: Tim nice but dim describes most of these people I think [1/10/23, 5:47:18 pm] Oli: One of my favourite sketches! [1/10/23, 5:47:40 pm] Sam: To be fair, I've only been in one when meeting my friend Arran's aforementioned dad out where he lives, in Something Or Other Manor near Hounslow [1/10/23, 5:47:59 pm] Sam: Got a G&T for £1.50 which struck me as containing far more T than G [1/10/23, 5:48:43 pm] Sam: (I always felt one wanted a 2:1 ratio or thereabouts but apparently most women prefer a glass full of noxious Schweppes pond water waved in the general direction of Holland) [1/10/23, 5:48:51 pm] Oli: Only problem is I can’t really claim kinship! I can, qua Alec Guinness, deploy a few alter egos though! [1/10/23, 5:49:37 pm] Oli: I agree with you entirely on this and hate the heavy tonic ratio some people seem to prefer! ‎[1/10/23, 5:50:30 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[1/10/23, 5:50:38 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 5:51:33 pm] Sam: You can be an Agathos [1/10/23, 5:52:00 pm] Sam: God I mean G&Ts are really the worst [1/10/23, 5:52:04 pm] Sam: Vile [1/10/23, 5:52:19 pm] Sam: Just about palatable with Hendricks and (extra?) cucumber garnish but still vile [1/10/23, 5:53:14 pm] Oli: Yes I am persuading myself of this every time I go to a pub. ‎[1/10/23, 7:24:16 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [1/10/23, 7:59:11 pm] Sam: It fascinates me that this compressed to only 278KB. Think about it. That's quite a high quality video. WhatsApp says HD. Let's assume the lowest resolution that's ever called HD, i.e. 720p, or 1280*720. Each pixel has a red, green, and blue value, each one byte large so as to give 2^8=256 possible values[1]. Therefore one frame of this video alone is 1280(720(3))=2764800, about 2MB. It's probably a minimum of 24fps, i.e. cinema frame rate[2], which would mean 48MB for 1sec, and for 15sec 720MB. That's compressed down to about 0.25MB, a compression ratio of 2,880:1. Simple run-length encoding gets you some of the way: for each frame, or across multiple frames, if you have a run of several consecutive pixels you replace it by the value and a multiplier for the number of repetitions. Dictionary coding gets you a bit further: often-repeated values can be replaced with a key, and the value for each key stored only once in the file. Delta encoding gets us a bit further still: for pixels that have changed only slightly, just store the delta, i.e. the difference, from the last pixel or the last frame, rather than the value. Then motion compensation: if the whole frame has just shifted a little, then you can simply record the coordinate transformation and do some delta coding to patch up the rest. (Delta coding can often be used thus, to patch up little bits of noise after applying compression techniques that are mostly but not wholly accurate.) But to achieve a 2,880:1 compression ratio – not even considering the sound channel – requires a truly remarkably small amount of information-theoretic content (aka Shannon information, or 'surprise') which can be credited only to you and Philip 🎉 [1] This is very conservative, and iPhones use HEIC with the DCI-P3 RGB color model which I think uses IEEE double-width floats, i.e. twice the size. [2] Again conservative. Probably it's 30. iPhones can do 60. I cba to check what it actually is. [1/10/23, 8:00:11 pm] Sam: (This was a great use of my time) ‎[1/10/23, 8:02:08 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[1/10/23, 8:02:52 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[1/10/23, 8:04:13 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [1/10/23, 8:04:18 pm] Oli: Total control mooooite [1/10/23, 8:04:25 pm] Oli: 🤣 ‎[1/10/23, 8:04:41 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [1/10/23, 8:07:06 pm] Sam: That first one is the one above, right? I think it came up on my phone as 278KB but it's downstairs so I'll go check. Thereabouts, at least. Maybe your WhatsApp will show you the 'uncompressed' file, but on any modern computer it will never be totally uncompressed - these are all compressions of compressions of compressions. Even if you imagine each pixel was just one bit (i.e. two possible values, for simplicity call them black and white), it'd still be (1280*720)/8 = 115KB, which is not really practical. So it'll only be fully uncompressed when in the frame buffer. The less compressed version you're seeing is probably one that's slightly faster to decompress, to apply all the necessary transformations in order to show you it. It's a tradeoff: more compression means more decompression needed but a smaller size, so for sending over the internet you'd want it more or less maximally compressed but for storing on your phone you can tolerate a bit more size in return for quicker / less computation-intensive playback. [1/10/23, 8:07:22 pm] Oli: Yes! ‎[1/10/23, 8:09:58 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [1/10/23, 8:10:10 pm] Sam: But as a crude model, each pixel is gonna be at least 3 bytes, one for each of the RGB channels (red, green, blue). So 1280*720*3, which is what I did above: 2.7MB in full. (That's megabytes, not mebibytes, which are sometimes used and are powers of two. In mebibytes it's (1280*720*3)/(2^20) = 2.63MiB (MiB=mebibyte).) ‎[1/10/23, 8:10:28 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [1/10/23, 8:11:17 pm] Sam: This is not including the sound, obviously, but that's usually a fair bit smaller. This is extremely conservative but it's remarkable quite how little information your video contains. It compresses remarkably well. Each pixel is to a remarkable and unusual extent predictable from surrounding pixels and pixels in past frames. ‎[1/10/23, 8:11:24 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [1/10/23, 8:11:44 pm] Sam: It's possible Firsov may eventually achieve a Kolmogorov complexity of zero! [1/10/23, 8:12:21 pm] Oli: This one is a Mong called SPEAKMAN, whose scrotum always appears to be above his trouser line. He was giving ket and coke (or supposed to but was too timid) to Damien et al at Henley. He’s one of the reasons for the decline of the modern Tory party. He’s got Westminster on the packet. ‎[1/10/23, 8:12:35 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[1/10/23, 8:12:35 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 8:12:57 pm] Oli: What are the stats of these images as they appear here? Or indeed the stickers? I’m interested! [1/10/23, 8:13:06 pm] Oli: 🤣 ‎[1/10/23, 8:14:02 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 8:14:06 pm] Sam: Let me just do the maths, one sec [1/10/23, 8:18:29 pm] Sam: 1024*731 ~= 748k pixels. sRGB (standard RGB), so unsigned one-byte integers 0-256 for each channel of the RGB space, i.e. 3 bytes per pixel again. (Well, last time it was a simplification but here it's really sRGB.) Therefore 2,245,632, about 2.25MB that it would be if uncompressed (which it will be eventually but in the innards of the Quartz framework probably if using iOS/macOS). 159KB, so a decent something like 15:1 compression. Less because it's not video, and video affords a lot of opportunities for delta encoding across frames. (In plain English: one frame is often very predictable from the previous frame, if it's a video of the actual world filmed through a camera, as opposed to computer-generated random noise or whatever.) [1/10/23, 8:19:17 pm] Sam: In short: ~2.25MB -> 0.15MB, giving a 15:1 compression ratio. [1/10/23, 8:19:46 pm] Sam: Haha, this is the sort of thing I get paid to know. The rest is just junk filling up my brain! [1/10/23, 8:20:21 pm] Oli: We all have our own junk! [1/10/23, 8:20:50 pm] Oli: It is vaguely interesting to me as someone who is uninitiated. You can learn something new every day! [1/10/23, 8:25:56 pm] Sam: Basically, imagine each pixel breaks down into three little lights, red and green and blue. (For LCD displays this is literally what they do, which allows lots of cool optimisation techniques.) And then imagine there are 1280 of these pixels in each column, and 720 in each row. That's a pretty stupendous number: 2 million for that image, or 2.7 million for each frame of that video. It's incredible how well we can compress it. (That's JPEG, so it's lossy compression and generally shit, but optimised for 'real world' photos - camera output, basically. For text it compresses far less well and leads to the weird 'jpegging' you often see on memes. JPEG-XL is very good by contrast, but no one trusts the JPEG group and Chrome removed its initially-implemented support from its browser, so it'll probably die.) [1/10/23, 8:26:41 pm] Sam: Really, that few? That sounds terribly boring! [1/10/23, 8:27:17 pm] Sam: Anyway this is a bit tedious probably with all the random implementation details, but information theory is fascinating and well worth looking into! [1/10/23, 8:29:15 pm] Oli: 'Ladies and Gentlemen, this is a public service announcement. We would like to let you know of the arrival of a peculiar fiend, a villain onto the streets of London. A monster worse than Jack the Ripper and Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper: the packet wanker.' [1/10/23, 8:31:12 pm] Oli: From someone! Apparently the packet has been linked to libido. Hilarious. Should look into it like these images and videos! [1/10/23, 8:31:32 pm] Oli: Don’t want to push the boat out too far! [1/10/23, 8:34:19 pm] Oli: ‘The packet’ is a uniquely south east of England expression apparently (this man on TikTok kept using it). It may be more clearly Harvester material than ‘gak’. There are many slang words for it. Are there many for heroin too other than smack? Or meth: Tina? I wonder where they all come from! [1/10/23, 8:36:27 pm] Oli: I should be more technologically educated but it is mostly all Greek to me. Maybe because I have less of an involvement in it! 🤣 [1/10/23, 8:37:28 pm] Sam: I've never heard 'the packet', haha. 'Gak' is the only distinctly lower-class mass noun I've heard for it. For heroin, the homeless guys usually called it brown. Raz often called it horse, which I think is also non-U nomenclature. So is smack. Not sure what else. [1/10/23, 8:37:50 pm] Sam: Ei pas hellenikos ‎[1/10/23, 8:38:04 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [1/10/23, 8:38:07 pm] Oli: Packet innit MOOOOITE! [1/10/23, 8:38:07 pm] Sam: Ho [1/10/23, 8:38:09 pm] Sam: Ge [1/10/23, 8:38:10 pm] Sam: Etc [1/10/23, 8:38:51 pm] Oli: I thought ket was horse too. Overlap! ‎[1/10/23, 8:39:21 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 8:39:37 pm] Sam: I usually say it's Proto-Aramaic, or Linear B, or 8th-century Transoxianan Khwarezmian ‎ [1/10/23, 8:40:55 pm] Sam: Ket is horse tranquilliser, so maybe some people call it horse. I'd certainly ask for clarification! (It's not really just horse tranquilliser, it's a pretty general-use veterinary sedative used for all kinds of animals, but I think 'horse tranquilliser' is said because it sounds scarier.) ‎[1/10/23, 8:42:36 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[1/10/23, 8:42:51 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[1/10/23, 9:16:42 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [1/10/23, 10:59:19 pm] Sam: So how's this going? How's thinking? Reckon the bookie will pay out? [1/10/23, 11:21:39 pm] Sam: This is just going to be a long and protracted process, isn't it? Eventually you'll realise that I'm not going to get distracted and forget about this, and presumably you'll find someone with whom to cheat on your boyfriend without all this fuss. All I can ask is that if you're doing this cynically, as opposed to unconsciously (slightly more likely) or not at all and intending to change (near zero), then please just trust that it won't work and abandon course now rather than later. [1/10/23, 11:36:29 pm] Oli: Just finishing supper! [1/10/23, 11:37:34 pm] Sam: Sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, but having just had time to sit and reflect on your last two days of messages, I consider that the chance that you've had any change of heart at all from our conversation is (as I said) near zero, and I like your boyfriend (slightly more than you) and I want no part in this. This has all been quite depressing for me, and I don't think you will ever quite accept that others are real in the same way that you are real, and that you are not superior and exempt from the rules you apply to them. [1/10/23, 11:38:06 pm] Sam: Christ, it's long message time I guess [1/10/23, 11:38:15 pm] Sam: Fair enough! [1/10/23, 11:40:40 pm] Sam: I think the problem is that _occasionally liking the thought of yourself as a compassionate person_ is not the same as _actually feeling sympathic distress and acting on it_. [1/10/23, 11:44:01 pm] Sam: I occasionally like the thought of myself with big muscles or a nose job or god knows what, but I don't care enough to realise that dream. The same is true of you. Everyone likes the idea of himself as a lovely person. Fitzgerald is quite right: everyone suspects himself of at least one of the cardinal virtues. But most don't care enough to sacrifice even the smallest thing to live that way. ('You are here', I suspect, as they say on maps.) [2/10/23, 12:07:25 am] Sam: Also, please consider Xander in all of this. He genuinely seems like a kind and good soul. I can see you're fed up and stir crazy, and it's natural to hate someone you've wronged, or intend to wrong, but I promise in 16 hours of day there's not much that's worth 8 hours of peaceful sleep 😉 (and god knows I've done enough to confirm this) [2/10/23, 12:08:20 am] Sam: Also not much that's worth your boyfriend cutting your brake wires! [2/10/23, 12:14:41 am] Sam: I hope I'm not talking complete drivel. Sorry. Sometimes I assume the other person will fill in the implicit blanks between one point and another. And anyway, maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am. [2/10/23, 1:25:40 am] Oli: Goodness... I am falling asleep! Maybe a night off for you. Must be alternating nights of lunacy for us both! [2/10/23, 1:26:03 am] Oli: At least off the 'packet'! 🤣 [2/10/23, 1:26:21 am] Sam: Bit of a quiet night, yup! [2/10/23, 1:27:32 am] Oli: I may wake up in a moment. I have your first notes/messages to reply to firstly! Must consider them. Maybe I will be OK off it for a month (I want to start with that)! [2/10/23, 1:27:54 am] Oli: We will have to see! [2/10/23, 1:28:02 am] Sam: Enough time for me to think about the last couple of days, though. Like I say, maybe I'm wrong! But if I'm not wrong and if you know I'm not wrong, please do save me the time! (And yourself!) [2/10/23, 1:28:30 am] Oli: The bookie lol [2/10/23, 1:29:05 am] Sam: On my bet [2/10/23, 1:30:01 am] Oli: Good god! [2/10/23, 1:30:13 am] Sam: Well, I mean.... [2/10/23, 1:30:27 am] Oli: I'm on a flying eye hospital on Exmoor. [2/10/23, 1:30:30 am] Oli: Barrel rolls tomorrow! [2/10/23, 1:30:32 am] Sam: No wish for an argument but do you think I'm wrong? [2/10/23, 1:30:56 am] Oli: Do you mean wrong here? [2/10/23, 1:31:01 am] Sam: (Ok, on reflection, that's a pretty good question to start an argument with) [2/10/23, 1:31:05 am] Oli: Yes. [2/10/23, 1:31:11 am] Oli: LOL [2/10/23, 1:31:14 am] Oli: Help! [2/10/23, 1:31:34 am] Sam: Well, I feel like we're back in the same place after two days! [2/10/23, 1:31:43 am] Oli: Maybe meth and coke do that. [2/10/23, 1:31:50 am] Sam: Not to me [2/10/23, 1:31:54 am] Oli: Quite frankly we are probably both talking like nuts [2/10/23, 1:31:58 am] Oli: No, you're in control! [2/10/23, 1:32:06 am] Oli: I often make that joke. [2/10/23, 1:32:16 am] Oli: 'People can't handle their drugs. It's fine: I'm in control!' [2/10/23, 1:32:31 am] Sam: No, I meant that I'm the same person I was on Friday [2/10/23, 1:32:39 am] Oli: Oh yes maybe. [2/10/23, 1:33:14 am] Oli: Maybe if you do it every day. [2/10/23, 1:33:29 am] Sam: I somehow suspect you're not totally cynically and knowingly pretending to be something you're not [2/10/23, 1:33:30 am] Oli: I do not much so I sometimes deviate if I am talking nonsense whilst on it and then coming off it. [2/10/23, 1:33:36 am] Sam: (Morality wise) [2/10/23, 1:33:44 am] Sam: But I think the outcome will be the same [2/10/23, 1:33:48 am] Oli: Do not much = do not often do it every day [2/10/23, 1:34:21 am] Oli: I do not think so! [2/10/23, 1:34:26 am] Sam: Same principle with coke: I don't really mind that much whether it's due to coke or not, the point is it's consistent [2/10/23, 1:34:48 am] Oli: I think this is always non-verifiable but we can still think it. [2/10/23, 1:35:07 am] Sam: Well, I don't know, there doesn't seem to be any change of heart, nothing I said seems to have stuck with you in any way whatever [2/10/23, 1:35:39 am] Sam: Or not in anything resembling the way I think it should, that I desire it should in someone [2/10/23, 1:35:54 am] Oli: I think there has been a consistency to an extent but I do feel that there have been many illogical points on my part or points requiring clarification because I have been somewhat askew due to 'the packet' 🤣 [2/10/23, 1:36:22 am] Oli: Hence why I feel very weird about it all! [2/10/23, 1:36:55 am] Oli: I do appreciate that this is a frustrating source of madness. I get a similar feeling. [2/10/23, 1:37:28 am] Oli: I have probably not expressed it in as obvious a way as I could have, or so I think. [2/10/23, 1:37:36 am] Sam: It's not really a 'point' thing, I think it's a 'care' thing! [2/10/23, 1:37:37 am] Oli: There were some things which prompted slight changes. [2/10/23, 1:38:04 am] Oli: Care can be in one's points. [2/10/23, 1:38:32 am] Oli: My point (not care) is that my communication has been that of a person with synapses not firing because of all of that. [2/10/23, 1:38:50 am] Sam: I dunno, obviously you can do as you please, but I can feel as I please about it. I think maybe the poverty of your approach to morality is becoming clear (maybe). You're entitled to your own morals in the privacy of your own home but what you want is other people's respect (or mine at any rate), and that's up to me. [2/10/23, 1:38:57 am] Oli: Though what I say is mostly probably consistent but I should think about some of the things a bit more. [2/10/23, 1:39:20 am] Sam: No, you should do about some of the things a bit more, haha [2/10/23, 1:39:30 am] Oli: Friday again! [2/10/23, 1:39:54 am] Sam: Sorry, I really don't want to have another bitter argument, even though I feel bitterness is warranted [2/10/23, 1:40:01 am] Oli: No it makes sense. [2/10/23, 1:40:06 am] Sam: But I just don't think we're going to see eye to eye [2/10/23, 1:40:37 am] Sam: I dunno, maybe we will, I'm happy to try, but I warn you I'm not going to be distracted away from it [2/10/23, 1:40:50 am] Oli: I say, in a British modest way, 'I must work it out' (meaning I currently have the brain of a jellyfish and can't commune much - not as a pretext to try and change the subject)... [2/10/23, 1:40:52 am] Sam: I really do warn you [2/10/23, 1:41:08 am] Oli: And it turns into 'DO'. I appreciate that is the argument but my point here really is I am not very good at replying at the moment. [2/10/23, 1:41:26 am] Sam: Yeahhhhh and I'm happy to give you as much time as you need, but it may be a bit painful, haha [2/10/23, 1:41:32 am] Sam: Oh well! [2/10/23, 1:41:50 am] Sam: Anyway get some sleep s'il tu veut [2/10/23, 1:42:47 am] Oli: Sleep or just trying to think. I am not sure. But I also feel oddly conflicted. [2/10/23, 1:42:53 am] Oli: LOL oh god [2/10/23, 1:42:58 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [2/10/23, 1:43:02 am] Sam: Between? [2/10/23, 1:43:03 am] Oli: Car crash [2/10/23, 1:43:04 am] Sam: Among? [2/10/23, 1:43:34 am] Oli: Or frustrated at the pace of our chat. Or rather frustrated at my own mental confusion (not much but just at the way I am writing sentences and thinking about what I write). [2/10/23, 1:43:41 am] Oli: I will hopefully be better in a few hours! [2/10/23, 1:43:44 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [2/10/23, 1:51:11 am] Sam: I think you're sorta frustrated talking about this, to be totally honest. Don't worry, I'm happy to persevere if you really want to put yourself through it, but I ... gosh. I think you maybe have some ancient crush on me, and ancient crushes take on a weird force (after all that time fixating on them and building up a mostly-imaginary image of them in your mind), and maybe you're somewhere in between wanting to fuck or actually wanting to have some kind of relationship while for now hedging your bets with Xander (I think you're mad if so—it's almost indecently self-effacing for me to say this, but you don't realise how much more you already have), Etc etc blah blah I cba to finish this absurd sentence but you get the vibe [2/10/23, 1:52:31 am] Sam: But basically I don't really think this is what you want [2/10/23, 1:53:19 am] Sam: Maybe you want _me_, haha, but you don't want _actually living the sort of life you'd live if you stopped denying the facts of the world_ ‎ [2/10/23, 1:54:19 am] Sam: And sadly it's both of us or neither 💃🏼💅 [2/10/23, 1:55:24 am] Sam: I think it's kinda telling to compare your reaction when I impugned your social class with your reaction when I impugn your morality [2/10/23, 1:56:55 am] Oli: I’m the Emperor of the World [2/10/23, 1:57:18 am] Sam: (Or, as Plato put it and as I see it, your quality, your condition, your grade as a human being - but I think you see it more as one top trumps metric among a bunch of others, which we have to satisfy for some obscure reason) [2/10/23, 1:57:24 am] Oli: I am not quite sure what it is! [2/10/23, 1:58:16 am] Sam: I was about to add that you'd probably take offence, but only at the imputation that you care about social class (because to do so is a sign of low social class), and not at the imputation that you _don't_ care about _morality_ [2/10/23, 1:58:27 am] Sam: I do think it is this, haha [2/10/23, 1:58:38 am] Oli: I don’t think there was ever a crush, or at least not an ancient one. I always liked you in a way which could be like that but it wasn’t occupying my mind every second of the day or for a meaningful period of time like those things would! [2/10/23, 1:58:52 am] Oli: And this is the truth [2/10/23, 1:59:03 am] Oli: Or maybe it’s not and I’m Slape. Which is another convenient get out. [2/10/23, 1:59:11 am] Oli: LOL it’s like a game of snakes and ladders! 🤣🤣 [2/10/23, 1:59:38 am] Sam: I'm trying to be as un-judgemental as possible, despite feeling judgemental, just because I think it's probably not useful. (Using my talent at this that I've gained over many hard years as a vegetarian/vegan since the age of 6...) [2/10/23, 1:59:46 am] Sam: How do you mean? [2/10/23, 1:59:51 am] Oli: Not hedging my bets [2/10/23, 2:00:13 am] Oli: Lol most poufs behave like that [2/10/23, 2:00:19 am] Oli: I am less like thst than most [2/10/23, 2:00:39 am] Oli: But sometimes, as I said, some sampling of the sweet shop is fun! [2/10/23, 2:00:41 am] Sam: I can see that it's a bit unpleasant for you and I really do sympathise, and that's why I'm saying this. But it's a game of snakes and ladders *because* you are insisting on something that's just not realistic and not what you feel. I don't know what else you expect me, for my part, to do? [2/10/23, 2:01:00 am] Oli: But that’s not how I see it [2/10/23, 2:01:04 am] Oli: So that’s where the problem is [2/10/23, 2:01:08 am] Oli: I don’t know really! [2/10/23, 2:01:34 am] Oli: It feels as though there’s always a get out and never an acceptance of my points but a ‘how do I critique these’ first before a ‘how should I listen and interpret’ [2/10/23, 2:01:39 am] Sam: Oh no I wasn't suggesting that. I dunno the word. I was quite tired when we had that discussion so probably I misunderstood or have misremembered. Maybe the word 'crush' is a bit intense - say 'interest' maybe. I didn't mean for that to be my main pt. [2/10/23, 2:01:43 am] Oli: Maybe I do the same which is why we go round and round. [2/10/23, 2:03:03 am] Sam: Well, I mean, yes, I don't approve of selfishness. I won't accept it. It's not going to happen. We can't both accept each other's points, so if yours aren't going to change, then sadly mine certainly won't and we're better off not pushing it. That's what I'm saying. [2/10/23, 2:04:40 am] Oli: Your impugning my morality was, in that respect of the argument, interpreted by me, at the time of my reaction to it, as intransigent reliance on silly premises (to an extent I had assumed the premises so that is one thing)! The other point appeared just to be an overly critical and, to my mind, mostly false interpretation of someone based on people one had mostly encountered. And this will also carry on. But you are His Honour Judge Sam Robinson-Adams and I am thee accused! 😫 [2/10/23, 2:05:09 am] Sam: I think the impasse is that you see this as a court of law where I have to somehow 'prove my axioms' or 'prove my values' or something. I don't. I'm happy to discuss the mechanics and the higher level stuff, but at root I don't believe in elevating my own feelings above others' (indeed not only above but to the total exclusion of others' feelings). [2/10/23, 2:05:22 am] Sam: Oh, I hadn't read that yet but snap, lol [2/10/23, 2:05:26 am] Oli: Haven’t played Top Trumps for ages (the actual game). That brings back memories! [2/10/23, 2:05:47 am] Sam: Yes, in short: in the court of my own mind I am the judge [2/10/23, 2:06:12 am] Sam: And you can have your own morals or lack thereof, but you aren't entitled to my approval [2/10/23, 2:06:19 am] Sam: Yup, good times! [2/10/23, 2:06:47 am] Oli: Haha. Some minds have bigger juries I’d say. [2/10/23, 2:06:56 am] Oli: But it’s good not to be too open. [2/10/23, 2:07:23 am] Sam: To suffering and egoism, yes, it's good not to be open to those [2/10/23, 2:07:38 am] Sam: Like I say: higher-level stuff, fine [2/10/23, 2:07:44 am] Sam: But this is not that [2/10/23, 2:07:48 am] Oli: Yes this was your implied point anyway! [2/10/23, 2:07:52 am] Oli: 🥸 [2/10/23, 2:07:59 am] Sam: Indeed we have literally argued this point down to "selfishness is fine" [2/10/23, 2:08:59 am] Sam: I dunno [2/10/23, 2:09:47 am] Sam: But no, there is no argument to be had there in my eyes, and besides you haven't even pretended to give one. It's just a difference in values. [2/10/23, 2:10:41 am] Oli: Yes I am trying to think of books this conversation reminds me of! [2/10/23, 2:11:00 am] Oli: Or of which this conversation reminds me [2/10/23, 2:11:11 am] Oli: Fun people love ending sentences on prepositions [2/10/23, 2:11:22 am] Sam: I think there's no reason to not [2/10/23, 2:11:37 am] Oli: 🤣 [2/10/23, 2:11:42 am] Oli: You’re entitled to so do! [2/10/23, 2:11:50 am] Sam: But anyway this is becoming a lot up with which to put [2/10/23, 2:12:00 am] Sam: (Stealing from Churchill) [2/10/23, 2:12:05 am] Sam: (Or maybe apocryphal) [2/10/23, 2:12:07 am] Oli: In the court of my own mind I’m the judge [2/10/23, 2:12:21 am] Sam: The court of your own mind is in recess I think [2/10/23, 2:12:42 am] Sam: I mean, I'm sorry, I just ... it doesn't bother you, and that at heart is the problem [2/10/23, 2:12:43 am] Oli: Keeps being asked to give orbiter dicta! [2/10/23, 2:13:28 am] Sam: And you're putting yourself through this torture, really. I'm trying to suggest how this is going to end up, but you can hardly insist on trying and then complain when I stick to the values I told you I meant and would stick to. [2/10/23, 2:13:37 am] Sam: I mean this [2/10/23, 2:13:39 am] Sam: It's not a game [2/10/23, 2:14:05 am] Oli: Yes. I am just trying to work things out. Maybe not very well. [2/10/23, 2:14:19 am] Oli: Work out your mind. There’s a lot of hidden stuff. [2/10/23, 2:14:40 am] Oli: That could just be your personality. [2/10/23, 2:14:41 am] Sam: See ratio in _Reg v Freddie_: ‎[2/10/23, 2:14:45 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [2/10/23, 2:14:53 am] Sam: Early judgement of lower court [2/10/23, 2:15:03 am] Sam: Finally denied certiorari [2/10/23, 2:15:09 am] Oli: We’ve had High Court [2/10/23, 2:15:13 am] Oli: Wonder about Appeal now [2/10/23, 2:15:21 am] Oli: Maybe we will go to UKSC [2/10/23, 2:15:31 am] Oli: Quite literally high [2/10/23, 2:15:33 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [2/10/23, 2:15:44 am] Sam: Judgement of lower court upheld [2/10/23, 2:15:51 am] Sam: Declined to hear appeal [2/10/23, 2:16:05 am] Oli: Yes that’s the thing when both parties can be judge 🤣🤣🤣 [2/10/23, 2:16:07 am] Sam: Gone to ECHR [2/10/23, 2:16:12 am] Oli: HH to that [2/10/23, 2:16:16 am] Oli: That’s a good idea isn’t it [2/10/23, 2:16:17 am] Sam: Human rights upheld [2/10/23, 2:16:20 am] Sam: Sorry [2/10/23, 2:16:28 am] Oli: Sam told to stop being dictatorial! [2/10/23, 2:16:37 am] Oli: Oh that’s bad! [2/10/23, 2:16:46 am] Oli: Now my turn for telling off! [2/10/23, 2:16:49 am] Oli: Contempt of court! [2/10/23, 2:17:01 am] Oli: I am just joking now [2/10/23, 2:17:04 am] Oli: But it is all quite mad [2/10/23, 2:17:05 am] Sam: (No, I don't actually believe in human rights, if we're being strict about it. I think rights are a stupid way to think about these things. But my answer is much the same in this phenomenally fundamental and simple disagreement.) [2/10/23, 2:17:24 am] Sam: Sorry, this is what happens when you actually believe in things [2/10/23, 2:17:33 am] Sam: It's not a badminton match [2/10/23, 2:18:45 am] Sam: I find it a shame (as well as a disgrace but let's leave that) to spend your life so cheaply - but I think perhaps that's the inescapable outcome and we're better off avoiding this unpleasantness [2/10/23, 2:19:00 am] Sam: And returning to pleasant reverie [2/10/23, 2:19:48 am] Sam: I don't think you really have a point besides this bloodyminded insistence on "it's my life and who is conscience to tell me what to do?" [2/10/23, 2:21:01 am] Oli: Belief is a good concept. I don’t think what has been in this chat the opposition to your belief can be instantly described as not a belief. Depends on concept of belief. I should work out my concept. [2/10/23, 2:21:48 am] Sam: I'm not really sure what that means or addresses or matters [2/10/23, 2:22:01 am] Oli: ‘Actually believe in things’ [2/10/23, 2:22:07 am] Sam: I think my issue is that I misunderstood what you meant here by 'yes' [2/10/23, 2:22:20 am] Sam: I had taken that to indicate agreement [2/10/23, 2:22:25 am] Oli: It is not addressing anything to do with what is perhaps the main point here! [2/10/23, 2:22:37 am] Sam: I think it more indicated a kind of detached aesthetic approval [2/10/23, 2:23:22 am] Sam: I meant 'believe in' in the sense of 'care about' [2/10/23, 2:23:52 am] Sam: I am not asking you to continue ornamenting yourself with tasteful opinions [2/10/23, 2:24:04 am] Sam: That is my fundamental issue with both you and Freddie [2/10/23, 2:24:06 am] Oli: Oh this makes sense [2/10/23, 2:24:15 am] Oli: Not an epistemological point then! [2/10/23, 2:24:27 am] Sam: And I think it will remain insuperable because you don't care [2/10/23, 2:25:11 am] Oli: This is interesting: maybe! [2/10/23, 2:25:13 am] Sam: Not at root, no. Who knows if the obstacle is epistemological or not? But no, if you're being sincere and if we're both attempting to speak English, then your "selfishness is fine" point would suggest it's not an epistemic issue. [2/10/23, 2:25:15 am] Oli: Yes [2/10/23, 2:25:37 am] Sam: I am actually describing what I care about and act on [2/10/23, 2:26:22 am] Sam: I think you (and he) are so utterly lost that it doesn't even cross your mind that the opinions that you affect might ever actually invade or impinge upon how you yourself live your life [2/10/23, 2:26:43 am] Sam: Hence this outrage and indignation and etc etc [2/10/23, 2:26:56 am] Sam: At the idea that morality might actually require to be acted upon [2/10/23, 2:27:17 am] Sam: Rather than fashionably extolled [2/10/23, 2:29:06 am] Sam: I'm sorry, it gives me no pleasure to say this, but after Slape I believe in just telling the truth, as best I can discern it ‎ [2/10/23, 2:35:59 am] Sam: Also, not to be cruel or twist the knife, but this is exactly what I *don't* want. I don't want you to figure out and finagle my mind. I want you to speak *your* mind, if it's still in working order. ‎ [2/10/23, 2:38:59 am] Sam: I think you still certainly have an intellect, but I ... there are moments where I think I see some glimmer of feeling about something but I'm not sure if I'm just tricking myself, if I'm like one of the gorilla scientists who so desperately want to see something that they probably-unwittingly coax the gorilla and/or embellish its response in their memory. [2/10/23, 2:40:54 am] Sam: And you are very successful at what you do, unlike Slape. I'm sure you can and will live a very happy life. You certainly lucked out with Xander. I'm happy for you. I'd much sooner have more happiness in the world than none. As a moral subject I have absolutely no wish for you, like anyone, to suffer. But as a friend, I have learned to be cautious because your attitudes are the sort that will rot away my soul. ‎[2/10/23, 2:46:33 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [2/10/23, 2:47:25 am] Sam: ...sorry, I can't really think of a metaphor obscene enough to describe it [2/10/23, 4:21:24 pm] Oli: Right! [2/10/23, 4:22:13 pm] Oli: Just looking over some of the things here. [2/10/23, 8:16:42 pm] Sam: Fair enough! Sorry, I don't want to be too harsh. If you're going through WDs and you think you'll be composmentisser at a later date then absolutely let's wait till then. But if, as I suspect, this is your settled attitude, then that's my settled response, haha [2/10/23, 8:17:08 pm] Oli: Oh am just working things out after supper. Had a lighter one. The woman here is always cooking things! [2/10/23, 8:17:24 pm] Oli: I am better today! [2/10/23, 8:18:00 pm] Sam: Oh good! Is that better as in 'more well' or as in 'more good'? Haha [2/10/23, 8:18:13 pm] Oli: LOL [2/10/23, 8:18:15 pm] Oli: More well [2/10/23, 8:19:37 pm] Sam: Ah good! [2/10/23, 9:02:38 pm] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [2/10/23, 9:03:04 pm] Oli: Funny. - Perhaps I waffled on too much to be clear but on 'these people', I am talking about the 10-20 British people, mostly based in London, to whom you allude in some of your messages which I've either been sent or which you've written here. They happen not to be from my exact culture and are objectively quite exalted. The point I was making was that there are at least cultural bases common to everyone here, no matter how exalted they may think of themselves. I don't think I ever said anything as patently ridiculous as my culture is the reverse of my culture. This is an incorrect inference you've made, potentially as a result of my loopy communicative style. I am sure that the definition of family I gave, by which you mean my 'cut-off point', would include quite a few people, more than I certainly would initially have thought. I am not as British as you think I am (like you), so I suspect it may be a bit less than a quarter of the UK for me, but I know what you mean in relation to a sum of people. By this definition I meant specifically the cut-off point for considering people to be extended family. This is, as much as you want to frame it being all a contrivance on my part, how my family has operated down to the modern day (from when I'm not sure) but we often talk of X, Y and Z as a 'cousin', when they actually fit this definition (hence why I've come up with this). This is a result, I know, of my grandfather and his siblings having grown up around second and third cousins more than most people would, and consequently of having kept up contact with those families as the generations expand, to the modern day. My family (now I'm talking about my family family: my mother's first cousins and siblings, i.e. my grandfather's children and his siblings' children) are no different from I in this aspect and have a similar notion of 'family'. It is, here you are certainly very right, quite different from north London (or, in fact, any London) culture. Irish Protestants have bigger family networks as a result of keeping closer contact with a greater variety of genetic relations. Sadly I don't see nearly as many of my father's relations as I'd like: he has a brother living in England with children but whom I only see every few years, and two sisters, one living in the Black Forest with her family and the other in the Netherlands. There are quite a few people, you are right, who would fit into this category but whom are unknown to me. I know of some in particular (perhaps who could have been known to grandparents but are now no-where to be found): one ancestral uncle, in the Navy, ended up in Canada for example and had offspring. I would love to find out where they are. My great-uncle, grandpa's brother, when he was in St Louis, Missouri, for some reason, managed to meet up with Babingtons there who showed him an old ancestral portrait of theirs which he identified to have 'a family nose' (most likely apocryphal) but I quite like these incidents. The problem was that they couldn't find any link to England, but there was surely one. Anyway, I would be up for meeting anyone with a family link in the manner that I describe. I did a DNA test last year: it is always coming up with new matches and does predict many of them (Central Europe a lot of the time) to be related within the period I describe. This is not as conforming to the 'cultural' point I've made, which is often more social. I have one cousin, grandpa's second cousin, who has an adopted son, and he is as much of my cultural paradigm as any other person in a similar set up would be. If one goes far back in genealogy, one will also be descended from the baker of the day as well as the lord of the manor. The genetic expansion. I am sure you know about this. There is an interesting chart somewhere documenting how our genetics expand as the generations go back. [2/10/23, 9:03:25 pm] Oli: - I didn't say that I liked the 'quality' of their conversation. At any event, I certainly didn't say that the quality of their conversation is that which is intellectually transcending. I said in some respect, at least, I do believe that a faint 'quality' element is satisfied, though this is deeply mentally provincial, insofar as there is at least a common overlap of backgrounds and cultural values, however vague this is. Many of them can indeed appear as 'complete simpletons' but there is at least less antipathy and more politeness and, even, to some level, concern for how one is doing (which may seem unfathomable to you but deep down there is a 'oh I hope X/Y is OK' feeling which is nice). One can either be totally removed and always seek the intellectual apex or can satisfy oneself with the familiar, which quite often doesn't get one any further at all. This all said, I do like new things if people are NICE and just find something to talk about. It always increases my faith in humanity. Actually, on Saturday, someone said to me how nice it was to have met me and how they found me a breath of fresh air! How I can talk to anyone about anything. We had a very interesting conversation about our lives and how we had dealt with varying troubles. He had a very similar life in some ways. He was from Dublin but moved to Washington D.C. aged 15. I was quite surprised to hear this and it makes me wonder why I have been presenting myself so much as this two-dimensional wreck. Perhaps I have been stuck in a view of myself as that when trying to have an introspective conversation as a result of the limited brain state and the view which I somehow manage to give off. [2/10/23, 9:03:58 pm] Oli: - I don't think I am not saying anything in what I sent. Perhaps you just are so alienated from the point that you find it a non-starter, as I even said in there somewhere. But I appreciate that I can at times waffle on. Your potted life history contains a lot of words but somehow really doesn't say much about you psychologically, apart from give a hint as to where some of your culture has originated. Though I thank you for sending it to me because it does give me a small context about some things which have happened in your life. I never at all knew about your other brother. Not nice. Your view on burial versus cremation was also of interest because somehow I thought that cremation was a quicker release! - An elliptical family connection is a funny way of putting it. I wouldn't describe it as an elliptical family connection: the connections are quite clear to those interested. What I think I do have though is an elliptical family connection to normality somewhere. It's not as though I met 'some people' and went 'upward', but this would be a normal trajectory for most people who you must be projecting onto me. I have always been with people (that is what happens if one has parents, however mad, who have friends). We are going to Turkey on Sunday for two weeks with people we have known for a few generations (i.e. different generations of the family knew different generations of theirs). They're not Etonians (there are so many schools here it's quite funny and you're far more likely to meet 'these people' by glomming onto people from other schools) and they're not people with whom I can claim kinship (though there are mutual ancestors a few generations back so I could technically claim something but to do so borders on the ridiculous and makes one look a spiv). I think, to an extent, we can say that I met some people and went in a downward direction in terms of drug use and other time wastes, and I hope to begin rethinking some aims soon. I certainly don't have a complex about imposture. That is again an incorrect inference. You seem to think I am some sort of Pygmalion (my great-grandfather knew G B Shaw funnily) and I am just telling you why I don't think I am, which is to any extent quite ridiculous because I don't need to and it makes no difference to me in that respect what you think of me. I am doing it, and talking to you in general, because of some, maybe totally wrong, thought that we are getting to know each other. And of course, when that happens, there are for some reason many errors of judgement you've had about me which I felt the need to correct. I am not sure if you think this entire conversation is about you getting me to become a more charitable person. That wasn't the interpretation I had. Though certainly that's an aspect of your character and (more on that later) I am not expecting that to change. [2/10/23, 9:20:10 pm] Oli: (More on that later meaning yes I want to try and talk normally and respectfully about it) [2/10/23, 9:20:18 pm] Oli: Re last bit [2/10/23, 9:23:32 pm] Oli: Eoghain is beyond odious in my eyes but I am glad he has managed to come across as nice to you. He is, ironically, far more of an uncharitable pig than I am and if you ever had this conversation with him you'd be left wondering what you ever had to do with him. 'Pull up the drawbridge,' he once said, remarking on his successful (he's ambitious isn't he!) social climbing. Funny man. Eoghain does sometimes get himself into faux sanctimonious fury, perhaps trying to appease his Roman Catholic faith, which must help him deal with the generational guilt of being a pouf, but which perhaps also created him into the version of it that he is. [2/10/23, 9:25:24 pm] Oli: Interesting you thus have a semitic aspect as well. Hava nagila to you. When we spoke about it once (you showed me some photo albums of some German relation of yours when you lived in Bethnal Green) you were guilty for their part in the Holocaust! [2/10/23, 9:25:58 pm] Oli: You should read Hannah Brookfield's books! Very good writer (more my social sort of thing most of it) but some have interesting semitic experiences in them as a result of her own obvious background. [2/10/23, 9:26:57 pm] Oli: I also have relations who were bad or linked to bad things in that respect, which makes a confusing background. My foreign grandparents met in England. They wouldn't have otherwise married! [2/10/23, 9:29:25 pm] Oli: I don't know what this refers to by the way. Wanting to find other people who use drugs? It is true that people often associate with others for that reason. [2/10/23, 9:31:30 pm] Oli: And yes there are many more normal conversations to be had. Not many challenging conversations to be found with wooden spoon dregs, as I think I said in my chat. But as I say, Harrow and Eton are two schools and there are many more schools represented in this demographic (maybe the whole of the Clarendon Schools). [2/10/23, 9:32:05 pm] Oli: ... and then some lol! [2/10/23, 9:32:36 pm] Oli: For whatever reason we had limited our discourse to a very particular set of things, always. [2/10/23, 9:35:05 pm] Oli: (Now just going to sit down for a bit and finish talking to the woman in the house here, quite nice, but she makes me look like a saint compared to you... do you know the Ps, oh I was with the Zs and they had this in their garden. That's what most people say in trivial/casual conversation. Hard to find Aristotle!) [2/10/23, 10:59:28 pm] Oli: On another WhatsApp chat someone is telling me about his uncle in the US who has sex with a niece and pays his other nieces in the vain hope that they will. [2/10/23, 11:00:16 pm] Oli: There seem to be a lot of maniacs around! [2/10/23, 11:01:23 pm] Oli: ‘Grooms them while they’re teenagers but only sleeps with them when they’re adults’ [2/10/23, 11:03:52 pm] Oli: Behind the niece’s husband’s back! Niece has a son as does the uncle. I said that who knows if the niece’s son is her husband’s! [2/10/23, 11:22:03 pm] Sam: - What cultural bases do you and they share? Is this more than you share with anyone else? And is it your life object to meet people who are maximally like yourself (setting aside the doubtful question of whether eg Mr Kingsley is such a person)? - "I don't think I ever said anything as ridiculous as that my culture is the reverse of their culture". I was referring to: "I in no way intend to make out that I am naturally au fait with high society. In fact, quite the reverse." - Re cut-off points, I was using that as an illustration of the size of your 'family' as above defined. If relatedness were the desideratum, you wouldn't need to dig so far back. But we know what the desideratum is. - Yes, that's saying that you like the quality of their conversation. I won't ruin that joke by explaining it. - I dont know why you're talking about intellectual this or that. I am repeatedly imploring you to do something for others with your time on earth, and not just this hollow, mindless, self-serving life of ubuesque gluttony. - No, I understand this shtick of "I act like an idiot but I'm actually deeply insightful etc etc", the yurodivy, the Shakespearean fool, the Prince Myshkin, that well-trodden archetype. But what does that insight amount to? A few hoary psychological observations and a couple of subordinate clauses? - Yes, very possibly my potted life history doesn't answer the right questions. If you ask me more, I'll answer them. - By 'a complex about imposture', I meant your evident and slightly unexplained anger towards Slape, or your interrogating me at that party, or your upset at Roman for his indifference to [Freddie's] social status, which upset took the form of ranting about how he was an impostor, somehow, for telling people he was a music scholar and didn't pay fees. - Of course I know the stories about Eoghain, and I believe at least many of them, but I wanted to be clear that my own experience was actually not that, for the sake of truth if nothing else. - Yes, that was the same grandmother's family, but her father's side. Well, her father. (This wasn't uncommon fwiw: Göring's adoptive father was a Jew, Heydrich had Jewish ancestry, even Hitler it's been said about tho iirc that rumour waa not plausible.) Actually it's the same for my other grandma, as I maybe said in that note: mother an English Jew, father a Sri Lankan Tamil. - I'm actually not arguing for you to have more eclectic WhatsApp chats, but to use your opportunity to help others, rather than banging on about selfishness and moral decay, 'for thee and not for me'. ‎[2/10/23, 11:27:07 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[2/10/23, 11:27:10 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[2/10/23, 11:27:19 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [2/10/23, 11:27:34 pm] Oli: Same WhatsApp person now making these stickers ❤️ [2/10/23, 11:27:40 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 meant to send not heart [2/10/23, 11:30:49 pm] Sam: Also, I don't have any semitic background. My parents weren't Jews, I didn't go to a synagogue, and I have no ties to the Jewish religion. I say this not out of some distaste for Judaism (though I do incidentally feel some) but because it's a good example of how meaningless and insincere this talk is. I'm not a bottle of wine, I don't have a terroir, and having two Jewish great-grandmothers doesn't imbue me with any special sense of myself as a Jew, because I've never been one. I have a mind and a memory and an experience. It's quite sad how utterly absent _your actual self_ is from your conception of what matters in life. ‎ ‎[2/10/23, 11:31:44 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[2/10/23, 11:33:18 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[2/10/23, 11:34:53 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [2/10/23, 11:35:31 pm] Sam: Ah, WhatsApp doesn't yet allow me to transcribe these answering phone messages, I see [2/10/23, 11:35:40 pm] Sam: One moment and I'll listen [2/10/23, 11:35:41 pm] Oli: Bloody hell! [2/10/23, 11:35:43 pm] Oli: Annoying! [2/10/23, 11:35:46 pm] Oli: Must type again haha [2/10/23, 11:36:02 pm] Oli: Replies to the rest [2/10/23, 11:36:26 pm] Sam: Well, I can listen to it, though if you have an iPhone then Siri dictation or whatever it's called is always appreciated! [2/10/23, 11:36:47 pm] Oli: Oh yes I prefer writing actually! I was only making very brief point in voice note! [2/10/23, 11:37:05 pm] Sam: Siri can be your amanuensis [2/10/23, 11:37:14 pm] Oli: Yes related to the mp3 [2/10/23, 11:37:25 pm] Oli: It is quite depressing indeed [2/10/23, 11:37:28 pm] Sam: MP3? [2/10/23, 11:37:32 pm] Oli: Not sure where I have off that image [2/10/23, 11:37:35 pm] Sam: As in the audio format? I'm a bit lost [2/10/23, 11:37:35 pm] Oli: Or voice clip or whatever [2/10/23, 11:37:59 pm] Oli: Many nice things to care about after 1997! [2/10/23, 11:38:12 pm] Sam: In your words and actions mostly! [2/10/23, 11:38:32 pm] Oli: I see [2/10/23, 11:38:53 pm] Sam: I can't believe we're still talking about this [2/10/23, 11:39:16 pm] Oli: 🤣 ‎[2/10/23, 11:39:43 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [2/10/23, 11:39:47 pm] Sam: My literal only point has been: please consider doing something for others rather than spending your life like a pig rolling around in mud ‎[2/10/23, 11:39:49 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [2/10/23, 11:39:56 pm] Oli: Total control moooite [2/10/23, 11:40:02 pm] Oli: Sorry my brain is just laughing [2/10/23, 11:40:13 pm] Sam: I can see that, yes [2/10/23, 11:41:05 pm] Sam: My patience and interest is running dry [2/10/23, 11:41:08 pm] Oli: As in stop sitting around and not liking the awful state of the world and do something about it? [2/10/23, 11:41:14 pm] Oli: I can see that, yes! [2/10/23, 11:41:19 pm] Sam: Yes ‎[2/10/23, 11:41:20 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [2/10/23, 11:44:09 pm] Oli: What do we do after we give money to them? [2/10/23, 11:44:16 pm] Oli: To make their communities better? [2/10/23, 11:44:25 pm] Oli: We should stop the drug dealers firstly! [2/10/23, 11:44:28 pm] Sam: Sorry, to whom? [2/10/23, 11:44:35 pm] Oli: The disadvantaged. [2/10/23, 11:44:43 pm] Oli: The homeless. [2/10/23, 11:45:08 pm] Sam: I don't know - you have a beer and pat yourself on the back [2/10/23, 11:45:23 pm] Oli: ?? [2/10/23, 11:45:39 pm] Oli: That is just a short-term solution then. Nothing else. No concrete plans for bettering lives! [2/10/23, 11:47:29 pm] Sam: Do you have a concrete plan for bettering the lives of aristocrats? No. They can plan their lives themselves. What the homeless need is homes and money to get themselves on their own two feet by whatever plan of life they find meaningful. [2/10/23, 11:48:18 pm] Sam: For them, like aristocrats, drug support should be available, as should domestic violence support, therapy, etc. But that goes without saying. What they lack is money. [2/10/23, 11:49:29 pm] Oli: No plan at all but what is needed is some idea to better homeless people and other down and outs. [2/10/23, 11:49:36 pm] Oli: HOMES and money yes. [2/10/23, 11:49:49 pm] Oli: That would be a good start. [2/10/23, 11:50:40 pm] Oli: The issue isn't money but throwing money at people when, at the same time, encouraging dysfunction. Alcoholic/illiterate/no discipline won't be helped by money. The person should be in a position to use it. [2/10/23, 11:50:48 pm] Oli: I agree it is probably society's fault for these positions. [2/10/23, 11:51:08 pm] Sam: What do you think your grandfather ought to do, then? [2/10/23, 11:51:33 pm] Oli: Well, he thinks they are Dickensian characters. [2/10/23, 11:51:38 pm] Oli: He has a particularly cruel attitude. [2/10/23, 11:51:51 pm] Sam: He gives you £9k a month doesn't he?! [2/10/23, 11:51:51 pm] Oli: Or incompassionate. Always has. [2/10/23, 11:51:54 pm] Oli: That is a generational thing. [2/10/23, 11:52:14 pm] Sam: What should he do instead? [2/10/23, 11:52:21 pm] Oli: Well that is his income but sometimes I am more due to dividends etc. [2/10/23, 11:52:35 pm] Oli: HH to me ‎[2/10/23, 11:52:36 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [2/10/23, 11:52:37 pm] Oli: All very mad [2/10/23, 11:53:03 pm] Sam: . [2/10/23, 11:55:03 pm] Oli: Money does not exist in a social vacuum and is spent and used by people! The character of the people determines whether or not the money put into them is used constructively or not. People should be encouraged to somehow lead lives. I don't know why we have a societal crisis but it doesn't help any of us. [2/10/23, 11:55:13 pm] Oli: Well he is 92. [2/10/23, 11:55:15 pm] Oli: A bit late! [2/10/23, 11:55:40 pm] Sam: You don't think you should get money. What should he do? What should be done? [2/10/23, 11:56:14 pm] Oli: I am clueless on this matter which is why I am asking you, the sage. [2/10/23, 11:56:21 pm] Oli: I would like to know. [2/10/23, 11:56:24 pm] Oli: I'd love to know. [2/10/23, 11:56:32 pm] Oli: I'm not sure he should do anything though. [2/10/23, 11:56:36 pm] Oli: But people should! [2/10/23, 11:58:20 pm] Sam: Well, you said alcoholics, illiterates, and the undisciplined "won't be helped by money". So we agree you shouldn't get money, for starters. Have you any idea what you _would_ do? [2/10/23, 11:58:37 pm] Oli: You should be restricted too I suppose! [2/10/23, 11:59:01 pm] Sam: And I bloody well hope you'd have a better alternative for me. [2/10/23, 11:59:09 pm] Oli: Meth dealers must be detrimental as well. [2/10/23, 11:59:22 pm] Oli: I would too if I were in that position. [2/10/23, 11:59:25 pm] Oli: What's my alternative haha? [2/10/23, 11:59:51 pm] Sam: You're telling me that giving money to alcoholics etc is not the right approach. To be clear, you have no idea what a better approach would be? [3/10/23, 12:00:02 am] Oli: . [3/10/23, 12:00:03 am] Sam: Just to remind you, this is your point, not mine [3/10/23, 12:00:12 am] Oli: No. It's clearly not the right approach because it is lacking. [3/10/23, 12:00:23 am] Sam: Have you any better approach? [3/10/23, 12:00:32 am] Sam: What should be done to you? [3/10/23, 12:00:46 am] Sam: And indeed me, as you point out [3/10/23, 12:01:00 am] Sam: Though hopefully you want the best for people and aren't simply looking to inflict misery [3/10/23, 12:01:04 am] Oli: I do not know what the better approach would be, you're right, but that's not a contradiction to that point as it stands if I can say that there must be one hypothetically which would involve establishing a sense of responsibility to oneself. [3/10/23, 12:01:12 am] Oli: I'd like to think so. [3/10/23, 12:01:59 am] Sam: So should your grandfather cut you off? If not, what on earth is the point of what you're saying? "There hypothetically might be a better alternative, so..."? [3/10/23, 12:02:30 am] Sam: Do you have any intention of acting on any of this, or are you just hoping to show that we can't create heaven on earth and therefore it's fine for you to piss your life away on gratifying your appetites? [3/10/23, 12:02:48 am] Oli: Economic oppression works most often not by taking money away from people but by depriving them of education/property/family/skill. This person will remain dependent on someone else for their entire lives and at the mercy of whatever they're given. [3/10/23, 12:02:48 am] Sam: (The latter the latter, said the ten thousand Greeks) [3/10/23, 12:03:22 am] Sam: Yes, it rather looks that way to me [3/10/23, 12:03:38 am] Oli: You want them to be dependent on your charity for the rest of their lives? [3/10/23, 12:03:50 am] Sam: No, I want you to change [3/10/23, 12:04:08 am] Oli: To be like you and make them dependent on my charity? [3/10/23, 12:04:12 am] Oli: We should conceive of some form of charity which allows them the ability to develop. [3/10/23, 12:04:17 am] Oli: That's what I'm saying. [3/10/23, 12:04:33 am] Sam: No, to cease to be dependent on charity [3/10/23, 12:04:45 am] Oli: Not necessarily but trying to work it out. [3/10/23, 12:04:47 am] Sam: Christ almighty I thought the penny might have dropped by now [3/10/23, 12:04:57 am] Oli: Yes absolutely. [3/10/23, 12:05:06 am] Oli: Society doesn't seem to want that. [3/10/23, 12:05:21 am] Sam: This is a truly remarkable blindness to the idea that your ideas might apply to yourself [3/10/23, 12:05:27 am] Sam: Mindblowing [3/10/23, 12:05:30 am] Oli: I don't think so? [3/10/23, 12:05:46 am] Sam: Like 20 messages now of trying to make this point bleeding obvious and still nothing [3/10/23, 12:06:18 am] Sam: Still interpreting my grammar in fantastical ways to somehow infer that I'm talking about your hypothetical lower-class rough sleepers and not you [3/10/23, 12:06:21 am] Sam: Never you [3/10/23, 12:06:38 am] Oli: Right what about me? [3/10/23, 12:06:58 am] Sam: Who are utterly helpless, reliant on charity, an alcoholic and/or drug addict, undisciplined, and showing no prospect of any useful life [3/10/23, 12:07:00 am] Oli: My points which you're trying to turn onto me were about down and outs needing help. [3/10/23, 12:07:06 am] Sam: YES [3/10/23, 12:07:23 am] Sam: But it's only the lower class ones, isn't it, never you? [3/10/23, 12:07:27 am] Oli: The help for them will be different for the help needed for others. [3/10/23, 12:07:35 am] Oli: Depending on the individual context. [3/10/23, 12:08:00 am] Sam: So please explain what should be done to you, and what 'context' informs it [3/10/23, 12:08:27 am] Oli: OK. So you've turned my question onto me. Which will give a different answer to the one we are looking for. Or a variation of it. [3/10/23, 12:08:37 am] Sam: Yes!!!! Unbelievable!! [3/10/23, 12:08:41 am] Oli: Well. I am about to have a one month holiday. [3/10/23, 12:08:44 am] Sam: Morality applies to you as well [3/10/23, 12:08:44 am] Oli: That will be a good start. [3/10/23, 12:08:50 am] Oli: I will be less able to abuse drugs and fuck my brain up. [3/10/23, 12:08:59 am] Sam: Oh lovely! I didn't realise that was in your homeless scheme! [3/10/23, 12:09:00 am] Oli: I will be thinking more normally by the end of it I hope. [3/10/23, 12:09:04 am] Oli: IT ISN'T [3/10/23, 12:09:06 am] Sam: Perhaps it's not as callous as it sounds [3/10/23, 12:09:12 am] Sam: Ah there we go [3/10/23, 12:09:18 am] Sam: For thee, not for me [3/10/23, 12:09:18 am] Oli: What is wrong?? [3/10/23, 12:09:21 am] Oli: No. [3/10/23, 12:09:24 am] Oli: That is how I will be helped. [3/10/23, 12:09:31 am] Oli: Were I a tramp then I'd be helped differently. [3/10/23, 12:09:36 am] Sam: ....yes [3/10/23, 12:09:43 am] Sam: That is literally my point [3/10/23, 12:09:50 am] Oli: You don't get it do you. [3/10/23, 12:09:55 am] Sam: No [3/10/23, 12:10:02 am] Sam: As I am trying to say [3/10/23, 12:10:06 am] Sam: In vain [3/10/23, 12:10:10 am] Oli: The poorer you are the more being like this is going to hurt you. You don't understand that society does this by throwing them money. [3/10/23, 12:10:18 am] Oli: I am not yet that far gone, and luckily you aren't. [3/10/23, 12:10:23 am] Oli: I just need time off to sort myself out. [3/10/23, 12:10:31 am] Oli: People in real situations of danger need better and more comprehensive help. [3/10/23, 12:10:37 am] Sam: Well, it seems to me like you're homeless and being thrown money, and you don't want the same for others [3/10/23, 12:10:47 am] Oli: I'm homeless? [3/10/23, 12:10:51 am] Oli: 🤣 [3/10/23, 12:10:52 am] Sam: Do you have a home? [3/10/23, 12:10:57 am] Oli: Yes. [3/10/23, 12:11:00 am] Oli: 4. [3/10/23, 12:11:03 am] Sam: Your boyfriend's? [3/10/23, 12:11:14 am] Oli: Wales. Ireland. Wiltshire. Turkey. [3/10/23, 12:11:18 am] Oli: Oh his is 5 maybe or 6. [3/10/23, 12:11:22 am] Sam: Your family's? [3/10/23, 12:11:24 am] Sam: Whose? [3/10/23, 12:11:26 am] Oli: Yes. [3/10/23, 12:11:30 am] Oli: I will inherit my mother's house. [3/10/23, 12:11:37 am] Sam: Sheltered housing, great! [3/10/23, 12:11:38 am] Oli: So that will be my home. I have nothing to my name yet so OK I'm homeless. [3/10/23, 12:11:43 am] Oli: That just illustrates how clueless you are. [3/10/23, 12:11:49 am] Oli: Callously trying to compare me to a tramp. [3/10/23, 12:11:51 am] Sam: So you've got your council house, and you've got your benefits [3/10/23, 12:11:54 am] Oli: That undermines your beloved tramp. [3/10/23, 12:11:57 am] Oli: beloved tramps* [3/10/23, 12:11:59 am] Sam: And you've got your drug addiction [3/10/23, 12:12:07 am] Sam: And you deserve it [3/10/23, 12:12:10 am] Sam: And they don't [3/10/23, 12:12:33 am] Sam: Because .... blah blah blah totally not self-love and class snobbery [3/10/23, 12:12:40 am] Oli: No actually. [3/10/23, 12:12:45 am] Oli: Look at your own behaviour. [3/10/23, 12:12:50 am] Sam: Money will degrade them [3/10/23, 12:12:53 am] Oli: You are being incredibly callous towards the question of the poor. [3/10/23, 12:13:00 am] Sam: Money on the other hand will elevate you! [3/10/23, 12:13:03 am] Oli: Trying to compare me to them hypothetically to prove a point. [3/10/23, 12:13:04 am] Sam: Money is great for you [3/10/23, 12:13:07 am] Sam: Dangerous for them! [3/10/23, 12:13:07 am] Oli: No it won't. [3/10/23, 12:13:11 am] Sam: Too much of it is a bad thing! [3/10/23, 12:13:16 am] Sam: In fact any of it is a bad thing! [3/10/23, 12:13:17 am] Oli: Money is very evil for everyone. [3/10/23, 12:13:23 am] Sam: Give me £9k a month for doing nothing! [3/10/23, 12:13:27 am] Oli: That is not my point. [3/10/23, 12:13:29 am] Sam: And being a drug addict! [3/10/23, 12:13:37 am] Sam: And I will sneer at homeless people for doing the same! [3/10/23, 12:13:45 am] Oli: Not at all sneer. [3/10/23, 12:13:48 am] Sam: Because they aren't entitled to it, because they are lower class [3/10/23, 12:14:02 am] Sam: And something something about having a brain [3/10/23, 12:14:16 am] Oli: Nice of you to reveal your true opinions. [3/10/23, 12:14:27 am] Oli: ?? [3/10/23, 12:14:46 am] Sam: I've been fucking screaming them at you for fucking two months at the very least !!!!!! [3/10/23, 12:14:54 am] Sam: Nice of you to finally understand them?!!!!??!?!?!? [3/10/23, 12:14:58 am] Sam: Christ almighty [3/10/23, 12:14:59 am] Oli: Haha quite. [3/10/23, 12:15:07 am] Oli: This does make sense really now. [3/10/23, 12:15:17 am] Sam: Good!!!!! [3/10/23, 12:15:20 am] Oli: Suits your inverted snobbery. [3/10/23, 12:15:22 am] Oli: Suits it to a T! [3/10/23, 12:15:37 am] Sam: Hmm, actually no, though I'm not that offended by the accusation [3/10/23, 12:15:42 am] Oli: I was asking you a simple question about what we do. There's more to it than just money. [3/10/23, 12:15:49 am] Oli: You seem to think I am some sort of Victorian Poor Law person. [3/10/23, 12:16:02 am] Sam: But no, I actually believe that everyone is entitled to equal treatment [3/10/23, 12:16:24 am] Sam: Excuse me, don't flatter yourself! [3/10/23, 12:16:45 am] Oli: I am not in the same boat, not as a result of my exalted self-opinion, but because of just luck of how it is. I am saying that it is one thing giving money but that is not a long term solution. What do we do? [3/10/23, 12:16:52 am] Oli: Not quite sure where you got off on your other ideas. [3/10/23, 12:17:26 am] Sam: But seriously, if you're proud of this conversation we've just had, if you're happy with that, then that's ... quite something. [3/10/23, 12:17:32 am] Oli: I am not proud of it at all. [3/10/23, 12:17:34 am] Oli: If you are then that says something. [3/10/23, 12:17:42 am] Oli: You went off completely in the wrong direction. [3/10/23, 12:17:47 am] Oli: Talking absolute drivel and creating straw men. [3/10/23, 12:18:01 am] Sam: I'm satisfied with my own beliefs, i.e. what I said. [3/10/23, 12:18:14 am] Oli: Oh dear. [3/10/23, 12:19:10 am] Sam: And I think you know exactly what I'm saying. [3/10/23, 12:20:21 am] Sam: I don't really have any interest in you any more, nor in listening to your mock indignation at whatever you're pretending to be indignant about. [3/10/23, 12:20:24 am] Oli: Don't try and have a conversation with Sam Robinson-Adams about how tramps need more than money. He'll assume you're saying don't give them any money and because you don't have solutions to the hypothetical questions he inverts onto you, because you believe the point to be quite different and irrelevant as you are not in need of the same help, he will make many gigantic leaps of thought and assume you are a selfish man. [3/10/23, 12:20:32 am] Oli: I don't that is the problem. [3/10/23, 12:21:31 am] Sam: Well, let's sum it up. You think that other homeless drug addicts should not be given money, because it doesn't help them. You think that you should be given money, so you can go on a one-month holiday. [3/10/23, 12:21:42 am] Oli: N-O. [3/10/23, 12:22:15 am] Sam: Because you think you're above those other people, because ... I honestly have no clue [3/10/23, 12:22:23 am] Sam: I would say classism, and maybe it's partly that [3/10/23, 12:22:35 am] Sam: I would say narcissism, and that's not in short supply [3/10/23, 12:22:50 am] Sam: I don't think it's entirely those, though, and I'm not sure where the rest comes from [3/10/23, 12:23:33 am] Oli: You asked how will I be helped. My holiday. Thankfully cocaine is not as addictive as some other wacko drugs, of which you know all too well. A one month circuit breaker will cut that. That is my help. We all have individual solutions. I am lucky. I think that homeless drug addicts (OK: wasn't starting off with these) should be given money, yes, but should be helped in more concrete ways. And actually maybe not money for them if that would make their problems worse. Homeless people should be also helped in a much stronger way than being given money. [3/10/23, 12:23:50 am] Sam: In any case, the right treatment for you is to be lavished with money and housing despite doing nothing with your life. But you're not required to do anything with your life. You can just bum around and praise yourself for sneering at others. [3/10/23, 12:24:04 am] Sam: Which is approximately the extent of the moral compass that you credit yourself with [3/10/23, 12:24:20 am] Sam: A moral compass that points consistently away from you. [3/10/23, 12:24:29 am] Oli: 'Other homeless' (i.e. in addition to me). This is an insult to homeless people. I am not HOMELESS. OK, I don't have a house to my name, and you maybe do because you rent (or maybe not if you just avail of family help too? SO YOU'RE HOMELESS!), but I am not on the floor with a sleeping bag if lucky without hot water or food. [3/10/23, 12:24:31 am] Oli: Or heating. [3/10/23, 12:24:37 am] Oli: This is an absolute disgrace and trivialisation of homeless people. [3/10/23, 12:25:01 am] Oli: You simply don't get it and have gone off on a wild one with no reason. [3/10/23, 12:25:05 am] Oli: I've said it here. [3/10/23, 12:25:11 am] Oli: This time you have genuinely misconstrued it. [3/10/23, 12:25:20 am] Sam: I avail myself of family help until tomorrow, but sure, I'm happy to be counted with the homeless. I don't know why you think I wouldn't be. It's your argument that I'm applying to you. [3/10/23, 12:25:27 am] Oli: You're actually quite classist. [3/10/23, 12:25:34 am] Oli: You just don't see it. [3/10/23, 12:25:51 am] Oli: It's not the same. You're not homeless. [3/10/23, 12:25:56 am] Oli: It trivialises everything. [3/10/23, 12:26:10 am] Oli: And when you apply my argument to me and get a different answer because I am not in need of the desperate help they are in you can't handle it. [3/10/23, 12:26:14 am] Oli: Good one. [3/10/23, 12:26:37 am] Sam: Respectfully, this may be a good moment to have a cup of tea. [3/10/23, 12:27:00 am] Oli: More than most homeless people can do. [3/10/23, 12:27:18 am] Oli: Homeless people are often lavished with housing. [3/10/23, 12:27:23 am] Sam: Yes. Ok. Luckily you're provided for. Have a cup of tea. [3/10/23, 12:27:24 am] Oli: For they are without homes! [3/10/23, 12:27:41 am] Oli: Oh. I thought you were talking about yourself. [3/10/23, 12:27:42 am] Oli: I am fine. [3/10/23, 12:27:50 am] Sam: I think I will have one too. [3/10/23, 12:28:26 am] Sam: You're embarrassed and you're talking a load of rubbish because you've lost track of what you're actually pretending to believe. [3/10/23, 12:28:33 am] Oli: Sorry for pointing out that the tramp should have their underlying issues solved. [3/10/23, 12:28:46 am] Oli: This time I am actually not talking rubbish because I have tried to engage with this idea. [3/10/23, 12:28:49 am] Sam: I think that's urgently necessary [3/10/23, 12:29:06 am] Oli: But woe betide me if, when you question me, I say my underlying issues are different and need to be treated diferently. [3/10/23, 12:29:15 am] Oli: 'FUCK YOU ENTITLED TOFF!' [3/10/23, 12:29:19 am] Sam: Oh good! Have you come up with some plan then? You hadn't when I last asked. [3/10/23, 12:29:32 am] Oli: HAVE YOU COME UP WITH A FUCKING PLAN? [3/10/23, 12:29:34 am] Sam: It was just 'take the money away' [3/10/23, 12:29:36 am] Oli: The problem is that very few people have. [3/10/23, 12:29:52 am] Sam: Yes, well, unfortunately you're the one making this argument [3/10/23, 12:29:54 am] Oli: No that was not the plan. [3/10/23, 12:29:58 am] Sam: And saying you've thought lots about it [3/10/23, 12:30:01 am] Sam: Presumably to no avail [3/10/23, 12:30:17 am] Oli: I didn't say that. I've thought lots about the problem of just giving money with no other solution. [3/10/23, 12:30:27 am] Oli: Not take the money away but just pointing out that it's not the FINAL answr. [3/10/23, 12:30:35 am] Sam: Ah. Good. I'm sure it was good exercise for you. [3/10/23, 12:30:45 am] Sam: But you have no solution [3/10/23, 12:30:51 am] Sam: So .... neat. Ok. [3/10/23, 12:30:56 am] Oli: No. Sadly not. [3/10/23, 12:31:05 am] Oli: Luckily I don't work in housing or homelessness solutions for the government. [3/10/23, 12:31:10 am] Oli: Or try and live as though I do. [3/10/23, 12:31:14 am] Oli: But a solution is greatly needed. [3/10/23, 12:31:20 am] Sam: Well, let's start with money and homes, since they seem to work quite well for everyone else. [3/10/23, 12:31:30 am] Sam: It strikes me that they probably wouldn't go amiss. [3/10/23, 12:31:39 am] Sam: Then you can immanentise the eschaton. ‎ [3/10/23, 12:31:54 am] Sam: When you figure that out. [3/10/23, 12:32:13 am] Sam: Well, this has been fun. [3/10/23, 12:32:21 am] Oli: OK. [3/10/23, 12:32:29 am] Oli: My point was that we as a society need to somehow do more. [3/10/23, 12:32:30 am] Oli: AND... [3/10/23, 12:32:32 am] Oli: IF... [3/10/23, 12:32:39 am] Oli: Society doesn't eventually do more do we just keep throwing money at it? [3/10/23, 12:32:39 am] Sam: More fun when applied blindly and indifferently to others [3/10/23, 12:32:50 am] Sam: Not so much fun when even imagining it applied to yourself [3/10/23, 12:32:52 am] Oli: Try applying something relevant to me why don't you. [3/10/23, 12:33:01 am] Sam: Will we get any lasting insight from this? [3/10/23, 12:33:04 am] Sam: We will not [3/10/23, 12:33:06 am] Oli: No because it's different. I am not on the streets needing resources or housing or education to do something. [3/10/23, 12:33:15 am] Sam: No, because you're being given money and a house [3/10/23, 12:33:15 am] Oli: A callous and pseudo intellectual reposte. [3/10/23, 12:33:18 am] Oli: Or attempt at a reposte. [3/10/23, 12:33:21 am] Oli: Well done [3/10/23, 12:33:35 am] Sam: And do you deserve that? [3/10/23, 12:33:40 am] Sam: What do you do? [3/10/23, 12:33:50 am] Sam: Or, wait, do you not have to do anything? [3/10/23, 12:33:58 am] Oli: Whether I do or don't is no-one's business because it is the result of private individuals funded privately. [3/10/23, 12:34:02 am] Sam: They're entitled, and you're ... well, just _entitled_ to it [3/10/23, 12:34:32 am] Sam: And you think you don't deserve that help [3/10/23, 12:34:37 am] Sam: And that it isn't best for you [3/10/23, 12:34:43 am] Sam: Right? [3/10/23, 12:35:05 am] Sam: Or have you now no argument other than "haha, fuck you, got mine"? [3/10/23, 12:35:20 am] Sam: (The answer is of course 'yes') [3/10/23, 12:35:31 am] Sam: Or 'no' or whatever the fuck is grammatically appropriate [3/10/23, 12:35:42 am] Oli: Their help is needed to get them out of a genuinely pressing situation. Living on the streets with no money. [3/10/23, 12:35:50 am] Oli: The help I may or may not need would be different. [3/10/23, 12:37:03 am] Oli: If you think that people living in houses are comparable to homeless people desperately in need of support then you're actually loopy. [3/10/23, 12:37:14 am] Oli: Drug support is different. [3/10/23, 12:37:22 am] Sam: Well, the help you're getting is money and a house. Should you get that? [3/10/23, 12:37:28 am] Sam: Should it be given to you? [3/10/23, 12:37:30 am] Oli: Luckily cocaine is not like the mongoloid drugs other people know about and is easier to get off. [3/10/23, 12:37:43 am] Oli: Which shall be helped by a one month holiday. [3/10/23, 12:37:44 am] Sam: Do you have any point other than "well I'm getting it so ner ner"? [3/10/23, 12:38:06 am] Oli: As a moral question this may yield surprising answers to me, I'm sure. [3/10/23, 12:38:20 am] Sam: Will you at some point declare moral bankruptcy? [3/10/23, 12:38:22 am] Oli: But the question is irrelevant. It's not analogous [3/10/23, 12:38:28 am] Oli: 'YOU'RE DIFFERENT. YOU FASCIST TOFF!' [3/10/23, 12:38:37 am] Oli: No... but I am not on the streets in need of desperate help. [3/10/23, 12:38:46 am] Sam: ^ [3/10/23, 12:38:57 am] Sam: Do you deserve that help? Should you be given it? I ask again [3/10/23, 12:39:15 am] Oli: If I say yes that'd be good for you wouldn't it. [3/10/23, 12:39:21 am] Oli: But yes I don't know if I deserve it. [3/10/23, 12:39:23 am] Oli: Probably not! [3/10/23, 12:39:27 am] Oli: Probably not with the way I behave. [3/10/23, 12:39:41 am] Oli: But it is an odd question. [3/10/23, 12:39:56 am] Sam: If you say yes, it will confirm your obvious hypocrisy maybe even to yourself. If you say no, it will be obviously insincere. [3/10/23, 12:40:09 am] Sam: And really I think 'hypocrisy' is too mild a word [3/10/23, 12:40:19 am] Oli: One can be aware of morality and not follow it so not be insincere. [3/10/23, 12:40:25 am] Oli: I am aware that moral answers may differ. [3/10/23, 12:40:31 am] Sam: I really find it quite contemptible to arrogate to yourself the right to toy around with others' lives [3/10/23, 12:40:37 am] Oli: If I did say yes though how would it confirm my hypocrisy? [3/10/23, 12:40:52 am] Oli: I don't. [3/10/23, 12:40:52 am] Sam: And to treat that (hypothetical or not) duty with the levity you have here [3/10/23, 12:40:57 am] Oli: I am simply asking you a hypothetical question. [3/10/23, 12:41:06 am] Sam: And with the levity and flippancy and disregard with which you treat other people in general [3/10/23, 12:41:21 am] Sam: And I think that goes well beyond classism, if I'm honest [3/10/23, 12:41:28 am] Oli: You're not going to admit that as a society we have to do more because you view the working classes as proles who by definition are unskilled and propertyless because that is what the socialist view is. [3/10/23, 12:41:30 am] Sam: I doubt if that's really the motivating principle [3/10/23, 12:42:07 am] Sam: I think it's a deep personal selfishness that is not really about being a 'toff' at all, much as you may insist on making me style you [3/10/23, 12:42:25 am] Oli: No. You're more of the toff actually. That is the whole point. [3/10/23, 12:42:43 am] Oli: Your whole liberal London bubble viewpoint deprives you from seeing the wood from the trees and you come out with this utter rubbish. [3/10/23, 12:42:58 am] Oli: I don't make you style me. You seem to conceive that I think of myself as better. [3/10/23, 12:43:04 am] Sam: Xander, bless him, is obviously upper upper upper middle class if not upper class (I don't really know much about him) and certainly he isn't exempt, it seems [3/10/23, 12:43:28 am] Oli: For you this is some sort of insanity which you genuinely believe. [3/10/23, 12:43:41 am] Oli: How funny [3/10/23, 12:43:42 am] Sam: Nicely put [3/10/23, 12:43:47 am] Sam: It is exactly that [3/10/23, 12:44:27 am] Sam: I have struggled to see for a while what the point of you is [3/10/23, 12:44:29 am] Oli: I don't think I do actually thinking about it. [3/10/23, 12:44:39 am] Oli: Now I am feeling the same about you. [3/10/23, 12:44:48 am] Oli: Much less than you. [3/10/23, 12:46:18 am] Oli: I would say I'm not a Grosvenor. But then again, I'm not a Redshield. [3/10/23, 12:46:35 am] Oli: But I am not in penury. So I may have to consider some form of charity. Though my point remains that we as a society should get our act together. [3/10/23, 12:46:39 am] Oli: Easily said as an armchair commentator. [3/10/23, 12:48:33 am] Sam: I don't think you're bad looking or whatever, certainly the consensus seems to be that you're very handsome, though from my idiosyncratic standpoint I'd say if so it's in a rather empty and formulaic way. You insist (usually through endless forwarded messages about how great you are) that it's about your strong moral sense or fantastic brain, but from this conversation it seems one or the other needs to go in for a service, if not both. I genuinely don't know what the big deal is meant to be. I am disappointed that you never messaged Ryan, honestly. That's the one thing that's actually saddened me, because he liked you, and regardless of my feelings I'd have been glad if that had come together. But oh well. ‎ [3/10/23, 12:49:17 am] Oli: Yes I am sad about not yet messaging Ryan too. [3/10/23, 12:49:50 am] Sam: Well, please do, and I will not come in the way of that, needless to say [3/10/23, 12:50:04 am] Sam: Besides that, I'm done [3/10/23, 12:51:56 am] Sam: Best of luck [3/10/23, 12:52:34 am] Sam: I sincerely wish your boyfriend the best, who seems like a good soul [3/10/23, 12:52:59 am] Sam: And I wish for you that you become a better person [3/10/23, 12:53:16 am] Sam: Or, failing that, grudgingly, that things go well for you [3/10/23, 12:53:42 am] Sam: For me this has been a saddening and sordid waste of time [3/10/23, 12:55:37 am] Sam: And I'm morally grossed out by the implication that you think I'd happily put someone else through that just to sleep with you [3/10/23, 12:57:00 am] Oli: It's clear that much of this won't be understood and you are going to keep to your view. You are entitled to this fully. Your second point: I indeed said that I am not au fait with the high society world and culture. That is very true. It is an exalted world for very few people (it used to be called the ton in the Georgian/Regency times). It is a very different world, and always has been, and most of the British old families didn't have a part in it. These nuances are something you won't understand. Why should you? As I also said, it's a very underwater world. That's that. I must look into Prince Myshkin more. I am angry towards Slape as I am towards anyone who deliberately and so extensively misleads: they assume that their interlocutor is an idiot. I am not upset at Roman for his indifference to Freddie's social status and nor would I mark him out as an impostor. I simply do not understand these points and don't think I have. I know of quite many Jews who were even in the war. As I said a few days ago, more than you'd think served in some capacity for the Axis powers! A complicated time in our history. I don't mean to show you my eclectic WhatsApps because I think you are telling me off for not having more but just as a mad example of another mad conversation! [3/10/23, 12:57:10 am] Oli: I had neglected that. [3/10/23, 12:57:21 am] Sam: You'll note I'm not being as cruel as even you surely realise I easily could be, because I am not trying to hurt you for the sake of hurting you, for the sake of some narcissistic rage. But I don't like you at all. I don't think you have much in you right now that is good. [3/10/23, 12:57:21 am] Oli: I apologise but yes I think it need not go on any further. [3/10/23, 12:57:41 am] Oli: How nice for you. Fair play to you! [3/10/23, 12:58:25 am] Sam: And I hope you consider your way of thinking about the world [3/10/23, 12:58:31 am] Sam: Or indeed not doing so [3/10/23, 12:59:53 am] Oli: Oh it would not put him through anything particularly. He used to often go away on random/esoteric trips to various destinations with Pevsner looking at them and taking an interest. It is good to be mature about people and realise that for a time in people's lives they sometimes like to see what else is going on and that this is not to any detriment. [3/10/23, 1:00:28 am] Oli: Both had accepted that things go on. [3/10/23, 1:00:35 am] Oli: I hope so too. I am going to have some time to think. [3/10/23, 1:00:45 am] Oli: I suspect I probably won't turn out like you but nonetheless it will be good to think. [3/10/23, 1:00:53 am] Sam: And about those around you. I said it when this conversation was more amicable and I'm saying the same now: I think it's an appalling way to treat someone who clearly loves and cares about you. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and you're in an open relationship or some such, and I sincerely hope so. [3/10/23, 1:01:11 am] Sam: ^ following on from this message, to be clear [3/10/23, 1:01:51 am] Sam: And I again reiterate this one [3/10/23, 1:03:10 am] Oli: As I said above 'This all said, I do like new things if people are NICE and just find something to talk about. It always increases my faith in humanity. Actually, on Saturday, someone said to me how nice it was to have met me and how they found me a breath of fresh air! How I can talk to anyone about anything. We had a very interesting conversation about our lives and how we had dealt with varying troubles. He had a very similar life in some ways. He was from Dublin but moved to Washington D.C. aged 15. I was quite surprised to hear this and it makes me wonder why I have been presenting myself so much as this two-dimensional wreck. Perhaps I have been stuck in a view of myself as that when trying to have an introspective conversation as a result of the limited brain state and the view which I somehow manage to give off.' [3/10/23, 1:03:18 am] Sam: I don't really care to have some tedious catfight. I'm not going to say you're ugly or pathetic or whatever people say about one another in this situation. But no, I've spent some time looking for the good in you, and I'm at a loss. [3/10/23, 1:03:25 am] Oli: I think I am just perhaps prone to, when around you, feeling like I am severely lacking. [3/10/23, 1:03:42 am] Oli: It is probably because I do have some problems but for some reason I am made to feel like a total villain. [3/10/23, 1:03:52 am] Sam: Yes I wish you wouldn't do that [3/10/23, 1:04:26 am] Sam: I mean, I'm sorry, yes, these attitudes are rightly considered villainous by some people [3/10/23, 1:05:21 am] Sam: I consider it beneath contempt to start gleefully swinging the axe at vulnerable people's safety nets while insisting on keeping your own [3/10/23, 1:06:17 am] Oli: I agree. [3/10/23, 1:06:19 am] Sam: And I consider it profane to start shouting about 'the world' that failed Rupert, while arguing that you don't owe anyone a thing, only they you [3/10/23, 1:06:34 am] Sam: You can fail everyone else, but they owe you a living [3/10/23, 1:06:47 am] Sam: And meanwhile you whinge about the 'entitled' people who live on the fucking street [3/10/23, 1:06:48 am] Oli: I agree and try to make minimal demands on the world. [3/10/23, 1:06:48 am] Sam: For shame [3/10/23, 1:07:01 am] Oli: I would never call them entitled. [3/10/23, 1:07:03 am] Sam: Ha, good one [3/10/23, 1:07:16 am] Sam: Fucking minimal demands [3/10/23, 1:07:31 am] Sam: Oh well, I'm glad the homeless will all be able to get by on minimal demands then! [3/10/23, 1:07:54 am] Sam: Please please please just spare my remaining few brain cells [3/10/23, 1:07:57 am] Oli: Their demands are minimal. [3/10/23, 1:08:00 am] Sam: Just pour encourager les autres [3/10/23, 1:08:05 am] Sam: If nothing else [3/10/23, 1:08:34 am] Sam: I mean, honestly, 'entitled' [3/10/23, 1:08:36 am] Sam: 'Entitled' [3/10/23, 1:08:41 am] Sam: You say of the homeless [3/10/23, 1:08:47 am] Sam: That should be fucking written on your grave [3/10/23, 1:08:49 am] Oli: Do I? [3/10/23, 1:08:51 am] Oli: I don't think so. [3/10/23, 1:09:00 am] Oli: You love straw men. [3/10/23, 1:11:01 am] Sam: 'Lavished', sorry [3/10/23, 1:11:19 am] Sam: 'Money thrown at them' [3/10/23, 1:11:42 am] Sam: 'No sense of responsibility' [3/10/23, 1:12:00 am] Oli: My reply to you being callous. Let me just find it. [3/10/23, 1:12:01 am] Sam: 'No discipline' [3/10/23, 1:12:08 am] Oli: Here. [3/10/23, 1:12:12 am] Oli: After you said I was homeless. Funny. [3/10/23, 1:12:17 am] Oli: Because no property to my name. [3/10/23, 1:12:34 am] Sam: Yes, because £9k a month is lavished with money. The (other) homeless are not. [3/10/23, 1:12:40 am] Oli: 'And housing'. [3/10/23, 1:12:57 am] Sam: Yes, you're lavished with money and housing. [3/10/23, 1:13:02 am] Oli: But I'm homeless? [3/10/23, 1:13:03 am] Oli: As you said? [3/10/23, 1:13:22 am] Oli: Hence my reply: yes the homeless are often lavished with housing. [3/10/23, 1:13:27 am] Oli: To be homeless is to be without a home. [3/10/23, 1:13:30 am] Oli: A house is not a home, but I have a home. [3/10/23, 1:13:42 am] Sam: You would be if it weren't for that charity, yes. There are people in shelters. We can play games with words if you like - call them people who can't provide for themselves. [3/10/23, 1:13:45 am] Oli: Pointing out your absolutely ridiculous false analogy. [3/10/23, 1:13:52 am] Oli: HENCE why I am not. [3/10/23, 1:13:55 am] Oli: God. Glad you've admitted that. [3/10/23, 1:14:05 am] Oli: Earlier you were trying to claim I was to apply that example to me. [3/10/23, 1:14:11 am] Sam: Well, that's truly a monumental point. [3/10/23, 1:14:23 am] Oli: And when I said it didn't work (due to the other helps I had) you thought I was entitled. [3/10/23, 1:14:25 am] Oli: Hilarious. [3/10/23, 1:14:40 am] Oli: Calling out your first suggestion that I say tramps are lavished with housing. [3/10/23, 1:14:42 am] Oli: They're not. [3/10/23, 1:14:52 am] Sam: What on earth are you talking about? The homeless, or helpless or whatever you want to call them, get that help too. That's what you're complaining about. [3/10/23, 1:15:08 am] Oli: Indeed. Not saying money is thrown at them. BUT doing so won't help in the long run. [3/10/23, 1:15:12 am] Oli: Society needs to find a solution. [3/10/23, 1:15:26 am] Sam: This is now verging into the genuinely brainless. You seriously must see that "well, I have a home" is not a reply to this argument about whether you deserve one. [3/10/23, 1:15:40 am] Sam: But it does with you, doesn't it, in your head? [3/10/23, 1:15:46 am] Oli: Not specifically calling tramps people with no discipline. [3/10/23, 1:15:58 am] Oli: Perhaps there are some. And if there are they should be helped by society to fit back in. [3/10/23, 1:16:00 am] Oli: I do agree. [3/10/23, 1:16:10 am] Sam: I make one at least [3/10/23, 1:16:39 am] Oli: That is right. I did not realise your initial argument was that because it veered more on just inverting my point about society's need to help the homeless more onto me, which was irrelevant. [3/10/23, 1:16:55 am] Sam: Ok we've reached that point now [3/10/23, 1:16:55 am] Oli: Most non-homeless need this too, sure. [3/10/23, 1:17:01 am] Oli: We reached it days ago. [3/10/23, 1:17:39 am] Oli: You as well. [3/10/23, 1:17:48 am] Oli: Well, admittedly, you function better at it than I do. [3/10/23, 1:18:01 am] Oli: That was one good point about your biography re your good employment. Well done. [3/10/23, 1:18:07 am] Sam: 'Veered more on inverting my point' means utterly nothing to me but I assume this is being represented as The Key Mistake That Explains This Embarrassing Mutual Misunderstanding [3/10/23, 1:18:18 am] Oli: Nothing mutual about it. [3/10/23, 1:18:30 am] Oli: I say society needs to do more to help. [3/10/23, 1:18:38 am] Oli: YOU: WHAT ABOUT YOU? DO YOU NEED HELP? DO YOU DESERVE IT? [3/10/23, 1:18:53 am] Sam: You said that people shouldn't be given money. That was my question. [3/10/23, 1:19:01 am] Oli: Irrelevant and bad attempt to invert point. [3/10/23, 1:19:10 am] Sam: And I don't really think I am the one who was speaking in that demented tone [3/10/23, 1:19:25 am] Sam: Which I'm starting to see as a bit of a pattern [3/10/23, 1:19:32 am] Oli: More or less actually this time you were. [3/10/23, 1:19:34 am] Sam: (Granted I have done it too) [3/10/23, 1:19:42 am] Sam: Well, I have done something similar [3/10/23, 1:19:55 am] Sam: There's something different about the character of yours [3/10/23, 1:20:25 am] Sam: I think mine is usually to ask a question, to put a point, whereas yours is usually to continually fire abuse in what strikes me more as an attempt to shout down any disagreement [3/10/23, 1:20:28 am] Oli: I don't mean that blanketly. They obviously shouldn't be left to die. But something needs to be done so they aren't just lost forever. Maybe I could dedicate some time to thinking about this. I'd like to know what professionals say. [3/10/23, 1:20:36 am] Sam: And then we get the "I'm sorry it was a misunderstanding" [3/10/23, 1:20:42 am] Oli: This time we don't. [3/10/23, 1:20:52 am] Oli: Because there was no misunderstanding on my part. [3/10/23, 1:20:57 am] Oli: There have been many on yours. [3/10/23, 1:21:12 am] Oli: I'm actually saying this about tramps? No I'm not. [3/10/23, 1:21:14 am] Sam: Maybe there have, but the main point I've understood crystal clear. [3/10/23, 1:21:55 am] Sam: Frankly I'm long beyond fed up and I have lost hope of any real redeeming value in this conversation or in you [3/10/23, 1:22:16 am] Oli: 👍 [3/10/23, 1:22:21 am] Oli: Probably for the best. [3/10/23, 1:22:24 am] Sam: I'm sorry if that's harsh, but I've dug long enough ‎ [3/10/23, 1:23:01 am] Sam: I realise I'm going to get some similar insight about me that we both know you don't mean [3/10/23, 1:23:05 am] Sam: Oh well [3/10/23, 1:23:17 am] Oli: LOL. [3/10/23, 1:23:22 am] Oli: Haha I don't think so. [3/10/23, 1:23:47 am] Oli: You won't change your views on me. That's fine. [3/10/23, 1:23:49 am] Sam: (I have plenty of faults, but, as I said before, not ones that you have spotted or will spot) [3/10/23, 1:23:56 am] Oli: And you will always have this element of your personality. [3/10/23, 1:24:27 am] Sam: You won't change my views on you, really. That's the heart of the problem. I have poured a fair bit of time into this on that exact promise of yours. [3/10/23, 1:24:44 am] Oli: Essentially that I'm going to become a saint overnight. [3/10/23, 1:24:55 am] Sam: But no, I'm not going to change my views as some kind of consolation prize. What are you on about? [3/10/23, 1:25:12 am] Sam: Nope, that is not where the bar is in this conversation [3/10/23, 1:25:20 am] Sam: I have precisely zero hope of that [3/10/23, 1:25:33 am] Oli: Exact promise of yours? [3/10/23, 1:25:38 am] Sam: I was hoping you might show some kind of strivings towards adequacy [3/10/23, 1:25:39 am] Oli: That I'll consider your morality and convert? [3/10/23, 1:25:42 am] Oli: Yes. I meant that. [3/10/23, 1:25:43 am] Oli: Well. [3/10/23, 1:25:58 am] Oli: Thinking about it, to some extent, I am wrong to portray myself as without adequacy in the first place. [3/10/23, 1:26:10 am] Oli: Thinking about the many people's lives I've bettered. [3/10/23, 1:26:23 am] Oli: I don't know why I do it here. [3/10/23, 1:26:33 am] Oli: You have this way about you where you make everyone who isn't up to your level fall short. [3/10/23, 1:26:36 am] Oli: And I somehow believe it. [3/10/23, 1:26:39 am] Oli: I don't think that is the case. [3/10/23, 1:26:45 am] Sam: I don't think this is going to get through to you, and honestly I'm sort of glad about that, because it's a brutal message, but it's what I think. [3/10/23, 1:27:03 am] Oli: BUT I must, you have shown me, think about some aspects of myself more, particularly some of the messages you've shown me I've sent including Firsov etc. [3/10/23, 1:27:16 am] Sam: Look, I wish the best for you [3/10/23, 1:27:21 am] Oli: Likewise. [3/10/23, 1:27:26 am] Sam: This just saddens me [3/10/23, 1:27:36 am] Sam: I don't take any pleasure in it [3/10/23, 1:27:39 am] Sam: Christ [3/10/23, 1:27:48 am] Sam: Tant pis [3/10/23, 1:29:11 am] Sam: I expect you now finally realise that I am now evil and out to hurt you etc etc [3/10/23, 1:29:22 am] Oli: Haha [3/10/23, 1:29:25 am] Oli: I'm the evil one! [3/10/23, 1:29:39 am] Sam: Banal evil, I think ‎[3/10/23, 1:29:42 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [3/10/23, 1:30:03 am] Sam: But yes I'm quite appalled [3/10/23, 1:30:12 am] Sam: I think 'intense banal evil' does the trick [3/10/23, 1:30:16 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [3/10/23, 1:31:08 am] Sam: And you can try to turn it into a joke and brush it off but I solemnly mean this, as I solemnly mean everything else (it's a good pastime) [3/10/23, 1:31:37 am] Sam: You can joke around but it's not going to keep that Ivan Ilyich realisation at bay forever [3/10/23, 1:31:52 am] Oli: True [3/10/23, 1:33:35 am] Sam: I don't hate you and I don't want to hurt you but I'm fucking despondent from this conversation [3/10/23, 1:34:51 am] Oli: All in good time will we work out our lives! [3/10/23, 1:34:55 am] Oli: Some better than other [3/10/23, 1:34:57 am] Oli: Others ‎[3/10/23, 1:35:13 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 1:35:36 am] Sam: I don't really know in what sense, if any, you were being sincere when you said you liked him [3/10/23, 1:36:04 am] Sam: But I hope whatever you feel might be such as to impel you to talk to him some time [3/10/23, 1:37:04 am] Oli: In every sense? [3/10/23, 1:37:11 am] Oli: He is a nice chap. [3/10/23, 1:37:14 am] Oli: A good person. [3/10/23, 1:37:23 am] Sam: Ah, so that's the issue then [3/10/23, 1:37:44 am] Oli: He had a lovely auora about him. [3/10/23, 1:37:58 am] Oli: Childlike and innocent. And he had so much potential. [3/10/23, 1:38:00 am] Sam: Well, he's no Kingsley, evidently [3/10/23, 1:38:26 am] Oli: I am sorry he feels upset about this. [3/10/23, 1:38:32 am] Sam: As am I [3/10/23, 1:38:34 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [3/10/23, 1:38:40 am] Oli: Which is a good thing [3/10/23, 1:38:53 am] Sam: I'll pass on your sorrow to him [3/10/23, 1:39:04 am] Oli: I don’t know what Kingsley does for charity. Nothing maybe. [3/10/23, 1:39:32 am] Oli: He sometimes made a good post on expressing wishes for people. I think he also gave money to a friend for a charity cycle ride. [3/10/23, 1:39:36 am] Oli: But the guy is tonsured. [3/10/23, 1:39:46 am] Sam: I like to think of him as a person, not charity [3/10/23, 1:39:53 am] Oli: I must write. [3/10/23, 1:40:03 am] Oli: I have his name on my reminder list. I am bad. [3/10/23, 1:40:16 am] Sam: I know. Sadly below Freddie's! [3/10/23, 1:40:33 am] Sam: And mine! [3/10/23, 1:40:43 am] Sam: Jesus, I must have been on there a whole lot of times [3/10/23, 1:40:46 am] Oli: Not that Ryan is charity. That Kingsley doesn’t give to it. [3/10/23, 1:40:54 am] Oli: On my reminder? [3/10/23, 1:41:01 am] Oli: I didn’t think I had him or you there! [3/10/23, 1:41:11 am] Sam: That's my point [3/10/23, 1:41:27 am] Sam: Sorry, I don't mean to twist the knife, I'm just pissed off ‎[3/10/23, 1:41:30 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 1:41:43 am] Oli: That I didn’t talk to you much? [3/10/23, 1:41:49 am] Oli: Or was bad at replying? [3/10/23, 1:42:05 am] Sam: No, you talk to me plenty [3/10/23, 1:42:14 am] Sam: Freddie too, to all appearances [3/10/23, 1:42:28 am] Sam: But we're human beings [3/10/23, 1:42:39 am] Oli: Not on much [3/10/23, 1:42:52 am] Sam: Not between candle lamps and Actimel [3/10/23, 1:42:58 am] Oli: More to you I suppose [3/10/23, 1:43:00 am] Oli: But yes [3/10/23, 1:43:17 am] Sam: I am genuinely not trying to be unkind [3/10/23, 1:43:20 am] Oli: Yes I got so bad I put my to do list with my shopping list [3/10/23, 1:43:47 am] Sam: You can make me out to be arrogant or evil or whatever the hell lets you write off my observations for the first time in 3 months or so [3/10/23, 1:43:55 am] Oli: Oh I see what this is 🤣🤣🤣 [3/10/23, 1:43:56 am] Sam: But I am distressed by this [3/10/23, 1:43:59 am] Oli: Haha [3/10/23, 1:44:08 am] Oli: Actually I don’t talk to anyone. [3/10/23, 1:44:13 am] Oli: They’re all variations of me. [3/10/23, 1:44:14 am] Oli: Even you! [3/10/23, 1:44:17 am] Oli: Fuck that’s deep [3/10/23, 1:44:31 am] Oli: You are mad on that point. [3/10/23, 1:44:41 am] Oli: It’s good though [3/10/23, 1:44:58 am] Oli: I can see. [3/10/23, 1:45:04 am] Oli: This is not good. [3/10/23, 1:45:06 am] Sam: Ok, to be clear, my point is that Ryan is an item on a list, while you've been talking variously to and at me for several hours without an item on a list [3/10/23, 1:45:10 am] Sam: Yes [3/10/23, 1:45:39 am] Oli: Yes it is maddening [3/10/23, 1:45:56 am] Oli: I am brilliant at wasting time [3/10/23, 1:45:58 am] Sam: Please consider the possibility that I am genuinely hurt and upset by your actual behaviour and am not faking it in some devious plan to get at you [3/10/23, 1:46:59 am] Oli: I did consider [3/10/23, 1:47:19 am] Oli: I had actually been asking a friend what could be going on with this. [3/10/23, 1:47:22 am] Oli: As I was at such a loss. [3/10/23, 1:47:29 am] Oli: And he thought it was a socialist conspiracy. [3/10/23, 1:47:38 am] Oli: Which even I registered as absolutely mad. [3/10/23, 1:47:41 am] Sam: Oh dear god almighty [3/10/23, 1:47:52 am] Sam: Was this your 17th cousin, Streptococcus? [3/10/23, 1:48:03 am] Oli: Yes. [3/10/23, 1:48:39 am] Sam: Christ, these people are at least inspirations to other neural tube defects surviving into adulthood ‎[3/10/23, 1:50:13 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [3/10/23, 1:50:25 am] Oli: Streptococcus [3/10/23, 1:50:28 am] Sam: I have really really tried - you, like anyone else, will be able to surround yourself with similar others who'll tell you you're right and the world is wrong, and it's your choice if you accept that [3/10/23, 1:50:38 am] Oli: He was not much help because he went into these socialist conspiracies. [3/10/23, 1:50:51 am] Oli: I was looking for someone more psychologically astute. [3/10/23, 1:52:12 am] Sam: I am sincere when I say I'm not even really attracted to you, and I am mostly having this discussion because for whatever reason I feel like there may be hope and I don't believe anyone should be written off, whether homeless or heartless [3/10/23, 1:52:34 am] Oli: Ha you don’t make it hard to see! [3/10/23, 1:52:38 am] Oli: Don’t worry! [3/10/23, 1:52:40 am] Sam: (I accept that other people certainly seem to find you good-looking, and that's fine, I'm not trying to insult you, but it's not me) [3/10/23, 1:52:58 am] Sam: Sorry - I'm embarrassed to admit I don't hate you [3/10/23, 1:52:59 am] Oli: People shouldn’t be forced. [3/10/23, 1:53:10 am] Oli: Lol [3/10/23, 1:53:15 am] Sam: And I think there's some hope [3/10/23, 1:53:59 am] Sam: I'm sorry, this is probably gonna register as 'arrogant' or 'messianic' or one of the other words used to complain about anyone who actually believes in anything rather than the jolly old football game of debate for sport [3/10/23, 1:54:18 am] Sam: Ideally not! [3/10/23, 1:55:35 am] Sam: I might have slept with you because I find your psychopathic side hot, but that's off the table because of Xander, whom you don't deserve [3/10/23, 1:55:58 am] Sam: Anyway I dunno [3/10/23, 1:55:59 am] Oli: Psychopathic goodness [3/10/23, 1:56:00 am] Oli: Haha [3/10/23, 1:56:09 am] Oli: Haha he is not an Angel [3/10/23, 1:56:29 am] Oli: Could be [3/10/23, 1:56:38 am] Sam: He's a good soul [3/10/23, 1:56:46 am] Oli: Yes [3/10/23, 1:56:50 am] Oli: Good souls are good [3/10/23, 1:57:03 am] Oli: I think when people say that it means something is lacking. [3/10/23, 1:57:17 am] Sam: You are - as candidly as I can put it - an ambiguous soul with perhaps good reason [3/10/23, 1:57:46 am] Sam: My 100% honest self-impression is that I am a weakly good soul with no particularly good reason (ie excuse for weakness) [3/10/23, 1:57:51 am] Sam: But who knows really [3/10/23, 1:58:06 am] Sam: I do like you in some way [3/10/23, 1:58:25 am] Sam: Sorry, that sounds like faint praise but I have a much higher bar for 'like' than do most people [3/10/23, 1:59:32 am] Sam: I am bemused by your reputation in various respects, if I've even understood it correctly, because it doesn't really seem to be the case, maybe because of self-presentation or maybe because you slot into some easy pre-existing type [3/10/23, 2:00:01 am] Oli: Reputation? LOL [3/10/23, 2:00:17 am] Oli: Probably in those pouffy circles it’s all rubbish anyway and what they want to see [3/10/23, 2:00:36 am] Oli: Those people are worse than many at degrading people. [3/10/23, 2:01:01 am] Sam: I meant what people like about you [3/10/23, 2:01:13 am] Sam: Or what is reputed to be good about you [3/10/23, 2:01:17 am] Oli: But someone’s reputation is only as good as the last person’s (I.e. person reporting it) mind. [3/10/23, 2:01:23 am] Oli: What have you heard? [3/10/23, 2:01:42 am] Oli: So many wrong [3/10/23, 2:01:52 am] Oli: Maybe even in this [3/10/23, 2:03:37 am] Sam: Looks, insight, moral candour / integrity [3/10/23, 2:03:44 am] Oli: Haha [3/10/23, 2:03:55 am] Oli: Moral candour is easy when one is confronted with ghastly people [3/10/23, 2:04:08 am] Oli: And many of them will have seen me in such contexts [3/10/23, 2:04:14 am] Oli: As is integrity and insight [3/10/23, 2:04:19 am] Sam: In contrast I think people get me right, no more and no less [3/10/23, 2:04:24 am] Oli: Looks because they are poufs [3/10/23, 2:04:33 am] Oli: And wanting to have a bit of a wank or whatever they want [3/10/23, 2:04:46 am] Oli: I have actually enjoyed fucking women. [3/10/23, 2:04:56 am] Oli: I just have a complete distaste for female character. [3/10/23, 2:05:04 am] Oli: And am more attracted to the male character. [3/10/23, 2:05:07 am] Oli: I am a misogynist [3/10/23, 2:06:18 am] Oli: But I do find this idea of summing someone up so simply to be ridiculous, particularly in that setting. [3/10/23, 2:06:22 am] Oli: Though it’s nice. [3/10/23, 2:06:34 am] Oli: I am not sure. It depends what they say. [3/10/23, 2:06:43 am] Oli: As is the case for everything said about anyone. ‎[3/10/23, 2:06:49 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[3/10/23, 2:06:49 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 2:08:24 am] Sam: But yes basically me too in many ways - not saying I'm proud but it's widespread among the gays [3/10/23, 2:08:38 am] Oli: And of course I lack all! Because I don’t match your standards. [3/10/23, 2:08:41 am] Oli: Though funny. [3/10/23, 2:08:49 am] Oli: Very good idea. [3/10/23, 2:09:30 am] Oli: And actually I do not like female features at all. Clit (or more properly vagina but I believe in crass disrespect for these things) is easier than an arse though! [3/10/23, 2:09:38 am] Sam: Autistic, moral candour, verbose [3/10/23, 2:09:46 am] Oli: Haha yes moral candour. [3/10/23, 2:10:20 am] Oli: But if that’s all they say they aren’t very insightful are they? [3/10/23, 2:10:29 am] Sam: My grandma, my German grandma, who has that wonderful German way of speaking where you know that she absolutely 100% has considered and sincerely means everything she says, said on my birthday that she admired my constant happiness [3/10/23, 2:10:39 am] Oli: Sounds like a coke head conversation [3/10/23, 2:10:44 am] Sam: That I was never annoyed or angry or grumpy [3/10/23, 2:10:49 am] Sam: THAT I do not recognise haha [3/10/23, 2:11:11 am] Sam: Tho maybe in some sense there's a certain kind of grumpy that I don't get (I think), which annoys me in others [3/10/23, 2:11:12 am] Oli: They like rules of three [3/10/23, 2:11:43 am] Oli: Yes a very nice German way of speaking [3/10/23, 2:11:47 am] Oli: We are not capable of it here [3/10/23, 2:11:59 am] Oli: Or if we are are usually very sanctimonious intellectuals [3/10/23, 2:12:01 am] Sam: Yeah I'm simplifying I guess! But things often come in threes [3/10/23, 2:12:21 am] Oli: That could be! [3/10/23, 2:12:27 am] Sam: I wish I were, actually [3/10/23, 2:12:32 am] Sam: That I admire [3/10/23, 2:14:07 am] Sam: In seriousness: look, there's something I like about you, and I realise this is really unkind to say, but I can't dissemble just as a kind of social kindness or compromise, and I don't think that [3/10/23, 2:14:32 am] Sam: Well, maybe insight, insight is the closest to the case, though in some areas lacking (but insight into self is very hard for anyone) [3/10/23, 2:14:33 am] Oli: That is fine! [3/10/23, 2:14:50 am] Sam: Looks I've covered and I yield to the majority who seem to disagree with me 🤷‍♀️ [3/10/23, 2:14:59 am] Sam: Moral candour is MIA [3/10/23, 2:15:01 am] Oli: Self-insight is usually what one wants to see [3/10/23, 2:15:15 am] Oli: Very hard to get right even if one tries [3/10/23, 2:15:28 am] Sam: I think sneering in judgement is very easy but sneering in judgement at oneself is hard [3/10/23, 2:15:56 am] Sam: Well, it's easy to do it performatively about unthreatening thoughts and faults, as I often do and as I've seen you do [3/10/23, 2:16:36 am] Oli: I don’t think I have moral candour or rather I don’t agree with what they say but your points here about morals are very specific. I may lack on that and on your point thus am flawed morally. But that is so. [3/10/23, 2:17:00 am] Oli: I do have moral views on many issues and in pouffy worlds particularly [3/10/23, 2:17:07 am] Sam: I will grant to you that there is _some_ perceptual difference between commission and omission [3/10/23, 2:17:10 am] Oli: Quite a lot of immorality there [3/10/23, 2:17:16 am] Sam: Not a difference in importance, but in feel [3/10/23, 2:17:29 am] Sam: Which seems to be one of the lines, though not really all [3/10/23, 2:18:30 am] Sam: I do find it mildly irresistibly hot, much like with Freddie, your disregard for your boyfriend - but that's my sexual psychology which is fucked [3/10/23, 2:19:05 am] Sam: In my usual mind I think it's an example of your turpitude in commission as well as omission [3/10/23, 2:20:18 am] Sam: Major fault of mine, on display in those texts: my paedophilia isn't mostly sadistic but sadism/hauteur can creep into my psychosexual machinery [3/10/23, 2:20:41 am] Oli: Not much disregard I don’t think. He has disregard sometimes! [3/10/23, 2:21:18 am] Sam: Well, not in those texts [3/10/23, 2:21:28 am] Oli: I just have to be a clear individual sometimes and have peace and quiet! [3/10/23, 2:21:29 am] Sam: You don't deserve him [3/10/23, 2:21:48 am] Sam: Nor did I deserve Louis etc [3/10/23, 2:21:57 am] Oli: He is very haughty and disregarding [3/10/23, 2:22:00 am] Oli: But has nice moments. [3/10/23, 2:22:05 am] Oli: Texts are moments [3/10/23, 2:22:13 am] Sam: (Major red flag: hating one's exes) [3/10/23, 2:22:17 am] Oli: We can all have good and mad moments [3/10/23, 2:22:51 am] Sam: Eh, possible, but I'd bethink yourself that you may be mistaken! [3/10/23, 2:22:57 am] Sam: But idk [3/10/23, 2:23:10 am] Sam: Ok I sleep now [3/10/23, 2:23:49 am] Oli: Sleep well indeed! [3/10/23, 2:24:19 am] Oli: and yes I am happy and all is well to some degree [3/10/23, 2:24:27 am] Sam: You too! [3/10/23, 2:24:32 am] Oli: But elements of searching always come in [3/10/23, 2:24:37 am] Sam: I really do hope you're ok [3/10/23, 2:24:39 am] Oli: We are restless [3/10/23, 2:24:48 am] Sam: I don't wish you any ill [3/10/23, 2:24:48 am] Oli: I must think about more things [3/10/23, 2:24:57 am] Sam: Xander? [3/10/23, 2:25:02 am] Oli: Very early [3/10/23, 2:25:07 am] Oli: Maybe you are off the meth [3/10/23, 2:25:11 am] Oli: Humanity 🤣 [3/10/23, 2:25:14 am] Sam: No, about 16 hours late [3/10/23, 2:25:21 am] Sam: Also yes [3/10/23, 2:25:25 am] Sam: Since morning [3/10/23, 2:25:28 am] Oli: He is restless sometimes but restful otherwise [3/10/23, 2:25:32 am] Oli: Goodness [3/10/23, 2:25:37 am] Oli: A good rest!! [3/10/23, 2:25:44 am] Oli: A circuit breaker! [3/10/23, 2:25:52 am] Sam: Aww I feel very well disposed towards him [3/10/23, 2:26:00 am] Sam: And I trust my well disposing instincts [3/10/23, 2:26:16 am] Sam: I feel cautiously well disposed towards you though you're much more fiddly [3/10/23, 2:26:47 am] Sam: He's a fat man who whistles (not literally but in my grandpa's words) [3/10/23, 2:26:53 am] Sam: Love him and protect him from harm [3/10/23, 2:27:00 am] Sam: Et dors bien [3/10/23, 2:27:19 am] Sam: Aimez vous l'un l'autre [3/10/23, 2:30:10 am] Oli: Hope this recovers! I was the same a day ago too. [3/10/23, 1:30:59 pm] Sam: Tell him to get a copy of Nairn's London. It's 50 years old now and many places no longer exist, but god he writes with genuine feeling about funny places that you'd never go to otherwise, and some of the loveliest adventures I've had were chasing wild geese from Nairn. If you can't hunt down a copy, I'll very happily send you one. ✋ ‎[3/10/23, 1:33:17 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 2:28:17 pm] Sam: Also, I'm sorry about some of the stuff I said yesterday. It wasn't wrong but it was wrong to say it. None of this is about elevating myself above you – it has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with how _you_, by whatever morals you have and with a minimum of thought, can justify spending your life. [3/10/23, 2:29:32 pm] Sam: Not wrong that I think it, I mean. Somehow saying "I'm not wrong that X" sounds much more arrogant than just "X", though it's propositionally exactly equivalent... [3/10/23, 2:34:52 pm] Sam: Also: people generally see the qualities they covet in themselves. I get 'intelligence' a lot. I forgot that one yesterday. It irks me. [3/10/23, 2:35:32 pm] Oli: An easy one for thickos to give others who have something they don’t! [3/10/23, 2:35:49 pm] Oli: Stupid man’s clever person etc. [3/10/23, 2:37:06 pm] Oli: The first sentence is a better summary. I agree. See the qualities in others they etc [3/10/23, 2:37:09 pm] Oli: Than this [3/10/23, 2:39:09 pm] Oli: I am thinking over these. [3/10/23, 2:54:32 pm] Sam: I don't quite follow? Nor the following message? [3/10/23, 3:05:27 pm] Oli: Ah yes… a few moments! [3/10/23, 3:21:26 pm] Sam: Also, my point concerning this message was that you seem to think you will be helped by money, and that you have moral title to it, but that doesn't seem to apply to others. I think the reason our conversation turned last night to topics like personality and reputation is that I no longer really feel I can make any moral argument, i.e. any argument that appeals to a shared concern for others. [3/10/23, 3:27:53 pm] Sam: You can say it's about commission and not omission (or 'reactive morality' or whatever you call it), and you can studiously avoid such people as the homeless so you have no actions to react to, but you can never succeed entirely, and your 'reactions' to Rupert and Ryan put the lie to it. And then Xander, etc. [3/10/23, 3:35:58 pm] Sam: And, of course, your shouting about Rupert the other day. I was quite moved by that. And then I see your messages to Freddie at the time, and your avowed selfishness and indifference even now, and last night's conversation, and I feel actually slightly sick to see it's just playing yet another part that you thought I'd like. [3/10/23, 3:39:15 pm] Sam: Sorry. Not trying to have a fight. But I don't think I'm saying anything that you haven't proudly admitted. [3/10/23, 3:39:36 pm] Sam: I suppose I'm just voicing my upset. [3/10/23, 3:47:16 pm] Sam: I just don't really understand. I find it hard to imagine being so unmoved by suffering. [3/10/23, 4:02:07 pm] Sam: And you have suffered a lot. I regret that. I hate that. I hope and pray and work to stop it from happening to anyone. That it’s made you numb and indifferent is just another reason to do so. [3/10/23, 4:25:33 pm] Sam: Also, why were you staying at Nicholas's with old Rupert to begin with? Did you pay him rent? Do you pay rent to Xander? Why not get a short-term lease or a hotel room or an Airbnb? I still doubt I'm getting the whole story here. Whether you care is up to you. I'm not sure I do. [3/10/23, 4:32:57 pm] Oli: Laughing at the sheer ridiculousness of your assertions/questioning style in my laugh reacts by the way. [3/10/23, 4:33:04 pm] Oli: Not laughing from an evil point of view [3/10/23, 4:33:23 pm] Oli: If you genuinely believe this you are insane [3/10/23, 4:33:33 pm] Sam: I vividly remember, when I was 12 or 13, I lied to my family at dinner that I and my best friend had watched one of the Saw movies. And my parents grounded me for a week (they were weird about films, that was one of the few things they were weird about). And it strikes me as interesting in retrospect that I accepted that grounding for saying something that wasn't even true. [3/10/23, 4:34:04 pm] Sam: And perhaps last night's exchange was very similar, and perhaps that explains the pervading air of unreality that I've had throughout a lot of this. [3/10/23, 4:35:02 pm] Oli: The whole chat from my perspective (or most of your remarks) seem to be unreal. It multiplies by the day. [3/10/23, 4:35:06 pm] Oli: YOU did this... YOU did that... etc. [3/10/23, 4:35:12 pm] Sam: No problem about the laugh reacts, I'm glad it seems ridiculous, though I suppose I'd be interested in the answers to my antepenultimate message. [3/10/23, 4:35:55 pm] Sam: Obviously your call, though. [3/10/23, 4:37:07 pm] Oli: Indeed. That is how I felt about Rupert at the time. He was a great annoyance. That was the in the moment feeling. Hang me. If you think I am playing a part you thought I'd like you must think I'm quite desperate. I was able to share some thoughts with you which many wouldn't appreciate or wouldn't know how to. His death made the whole thing more severe and made me to many extents feel quite awful. [3/10/23, 4:38:08 pm] Oli: Avowed selfishness: not going to wake up and wank about how to make tramps feel happier. OK. [3/10/23, 4:38:20 pm] Sam: I do think you were playing a part, yes. I can't say I've had any thoughts in particular about your desperation (for what?). [3/10/23, 4:38:24 pm] Oli: Because that precludes anything else I've ever done for other people's benefit. [3/10/23, 4:38:49 pm] Oli: playing a part. To make you feel happier? Fuck off haha. Brilliant. [3/10/23, 4:39:01 pm] Oli: I felt you were receptive to my thoughts on the situation. [3/10/23, 4:39:04 pm] Sam: The bit I had in mind was your shouting about "it's a cruel world" and "how dare Nicholas do this" and suchlike. [3/10/23, 4:39:11 pm] Oli: Indeed. [3/10/23, 4:39:15 pm] Sam: I was. As I said just now, I believed it. [3/10/23, 4:39:15 pm] Oli: Quite awful really. [3/10/23, 4:39:24 pm] Sam: I no longer do. [3/10/23, 4:39:33 pm] Sam: For bleeding obvious reasons. [3/10/23, 4:39:37 pm] Oli: I am sorry that you have problems working your mind out. I hope you sort it out soon. [3/10/23, 4:39:44 pm] Oli: I wasn't pretending about my thoughts at all. [3/10/23, 4:40:20 pm] Sam: Is this meant to be an insult? You keep saying this and I don't know how it's meant to insult me. I'm not even entirely sure what you mean by it. [3/10/23, 4:40:29 pm] Oli: I was also annoyed with my own attitude towards him but to an extent it was allowed I think because he kept trying to rape me. [3/10/23, 4:40:37 pm] Oli: Naked smelly tramp trying to rape someone. Nice isn't it. [3/10/23, 4:40:40 pm] Oli: Bloody harrowing experience. [3/10/23, 4:40:55 pm] Oli: After his death all of these things slotted into a greater context. [3/10/23, 4:41:00 pm] Oli: I felt and still do feel awful. [3/10/23, 4:41:13 pm] Oli: But of course I'm just trying to make you like me because I'm so desperate for your sanctimonious approval. [3/10/23, 4:41:14 pm] Sam: "It's a cruel world. Neat. Let's have a drink." [3/10/23, 4:41:28 pm] Oli: Many people would have several drinks after that. [3/10/23, 4:41:56 pm] Sam: I don't even know what to bother saying any more. It's a cruel world and you don't think anyone should have done anything differently. [3/10/23, 4:42:00 pm] Oli: You genuinely have a block when it comes to these things. [3/10/23, 4:42:11 pm] Oli: In what situation? [3/10/23, 4:42:16 pm] Sam: Rupert's [3/10/23, 4:42:26 pm] Oli: In this? Part of what still confuses me is that I am not sure what could have been done differently. [3/10/23, 4:42:26 pm] Oli: W [3/10/23, 4:42:33 pm] Oli: Could have called the mental health authorities I suppose. [3/10/23, 4:42:34 pm] Sam: It's a cruel world and you're pretty chill with its cruelty [3/10/23, 4:42:50 pm] Oli: I am accepted to the horrors of life. [3/10/23, 4:43:09 pm] Sam: And I'm not, and I have no wish to be. [3/10/23, 4:43:12 pm] Oli: You still keep wanting to persecute me for it. As you say, or to say something similar, you're not going to change me. [3/10/23, 4:43:19 pm] Sam: I am pro-fewer-horrors. [3/10/23, 4:43:22 pm] Oli: I have just had quite enough of this vitriol. [3/10/23, 4:43:33 pm] Sam: Controversial I know! [3/10/23, 4:43:39 pm] Oli: Not at all. [3/10/23, 4:43:51 pm] Oli: What is controversial is your harassment of others who want to live their lives and are very upset about the world. [3/10/23, 4:44:04 pm] Oli: You shove it down their throats and make them feel compelled to do things. [3/10/23, 4:44:11 pm] Sam: Not controversial? What else did you mean by this? [3/10/23, 4:44:15 pm] Oli: You should join the sans-coulottes! [3/10/23, 4:44:29 pm] Sam: Don’t let’s try to walk this back into some point that utterly no one would disagree with, haha [3/10/23, 4:45:03 pm] Oli: You want some proof that I'm evil or some way of condemning me. [3/10/23, 4:45:07 pm] Oli: Just get on and do it. [3/10/23, 4:45:13 pm] Oli: I don't give a fuck anymore. [3/10/23, 4:45:17 pm] Sam: Better the sans-culottes than the muscadins [3/10/23, 4:45:20 pm] Oli: You can think what you want. [3/10/23, 4:45:43 pm] Sam: Though I’ve tended to call myself an enragé [3/10/23, 4:46:05 pm] Sam: Nope, I’ve more than enough, but thanks! [3/10/23, 4:46:27 pm] Sam: ‘Evil’ is a judgement we can leave to the next world [3/10/23, 4:46:42 pm] Sam: Perhaps your ordeal is enough to excuse it [3/10/23, 4:47:06 pm] Sam: But yes, it’s something I deeply disapprove of and consider requires an excuse ‎ [3/10/23, 4:47:47 pm] Oli: I was on the phone earlier with a cousin (1st cousin twice removed; grandpa's first cousin). He's a 94 year old pouf. Married. You could say I'm glomming onto him. Anyway, he asked why I've been so much out of contact. Then he asked had I spoken to X Y Z (some aristocrat's wife). I said yes, to tell them about their cousin de Lisle who has killed himself. 'Oh, Rupert, yes, he came here and met us all when he was a student' (in Dublin). He knew about the death. Quite horrible. We had just spoken about it. [3/10/23, 4:48:08 pm] Oli: He even said, on the topic of Rupert's parents, 'it's all they could do. They did what parents have to do. Educate them, give them a roof...' [3/10/23, 4:48:16 pm] Sam: It certainly is horrible. It’s awful. [3/10/23, 4:48:19 pm] Oli: Everyone seems to give these get out clauses. [3/10/23, 4:48:26 pm] Sam: And don’t I know it [3/10/23, 4:48:28 pm] Oli: That is what I was angry about. [3/10/23, 4:48:30 pm] Oli: And still am. [3/10/23, 4:49:08 pm] Oli: You have some twisted desire to explain it away, to fit me in better to some category many of your interlocutors must fit into. [3/10/23, 4:49:20 pm] Oli: You can believe what you want. And do. [3/10/23, 4:49:33 pm] Oli: Not all of us are Peter Singer hedonists who molest animals. [3/10/23, 4:50:01 pm] Sam: I’m not really sure what, or if, any of that means [3/10/23, 4:50:06 pm] Oli: You wouldn't be. [3/10/23, 4:50:08 pm] Oli: Good idea. [3/10/23, 4:50:29 pm] Oli: Blind faith. [3/10/23, 4:52:25 pm] Oli: It was wrong to say it and it is factually wrong because you do not know me near well enough to claim that is what I actually am. I have a sense of humour which can be politically incorrect but when looking past this I don't think I am what you are implying. You're far closer to a predatory elite than I am. [3/10/23, 4:53:16 pm] Sam: I know you well enough to know that, even if I don’t know you all that well. [3/10/23, 4:53:25 pm] Oli: People often attribute this to people if they can't make sense of what is being said. One example. Essentially these are just easy things for people to say of one another. [3/10/23, 4:53:48 pm] Oli: I don't seem to think that I will be helped by money. Quite the reverse. [3/10/23, 4:54:02 pm] Sam: I am literally saying in that message that I didn’t understand whatever you had said [3/10/23, 4:54:10 pm] Oli: My actions to those people put the lie to it. Makes no sense to me. [3/10/23, 4:54:29 pm] Oli: Yes and I don't want to get into another diatribe about it after I explain it. [3/10/23, 4:54:41 pm] Oli: You say something to someone... they're an idiot... they say 'oh you're intelligent'. [3/10/23, 4:54:46 pm] Oli: People are often the stupid man's clever person. [3/10/23, 4:54:52 pm] Sam: Sorry, they put the lie to the idea that you act decently or morally but only in your reactions (however on earth that’s even defined) to other people’s actions. [3/10/23, 4:55:02 pm] Oli: I think I do. [3/10/23, 4:55:07 pm] Sam: If you’re saying that the quoted message doesn’t make grammatical sense, it may well not have. [3/10/23, 4:55:10 pm] Oli: Providing they have reasonable expectations of me. [3/10/23, 4:55:12 pm] Sam: Wrongly [3/10/23, 4:55:18 pm] Oli: Nice for you. [3/10/23, 4:55:26 pm] Sam: No, none of this has been nice for me [3/10/23, 4:56:04 pm] Sam: Really and sincerely I disavow any feeling of niceness from any of this conversation. [3/10/23, 4:56:33 pm] Oli: Never paid rent. I was there because he was often away and it was easier. I also like his company. Xander had parents living the house he was in so didn't make sense to do what I wanted do, e.g. have people over. [3/10/23, 4:56:51 pm] Oli: There is little of interest to report about my living situation. [3/10/23, 4:57:39 pm] Oli: As you often say, I don't quite follow. [3/10/23, 4:57:43 pm] Oli: The theme of this conversation. [3/10/23, 4:58:03 pm] Oli: Quite. [3/10/23, 4:58:25 pm] Oli: You are genuinely barking up the wrong tree and are very offensive. [3/10/23, 4:58:34 pm] Sam: I was suggesting that your financial situation was perhaps exaggerated, and that you had had that argument and defended that indefensible position because you’d sooner do so than admit the financial point. [3/10/23, 4:58:35 pm] Oli: Part of your crusader mentality. [3/10/23, 4:58:45 pm] Oli: Exaggerated? Haha. [3/10/23, 4:59:00 pm] Oli: I have been quite clear on explaining the specifics. of it to you here. [3/10/23, 4:59:02 pm] Oli: Perhaps you forget. [3/10/23, 4:59:23 pm] Oli: It’s all exaggerated ‎[3/10/23, 4:59:23 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 4:59:24 pm] Sam: Yes yes, this is how we describe morality when it makes any demand of you. No high dudgeon about ‘cruel world’ for you. [3/10/23, 4:59:56 pm] Sam: Saints, crusaders, messiahs, we’ve had the whole dramatis personae [3/10/23, 5:00:28 pm] Oli: No argument regarding it was defended? [3/10/23, 5:00:34 pm] Oli: I had explained specifics. [3/10/23, 5:00:44 pm] Oli: You must forget a lot. [3/10/23, 5:00:46 pm] Sam: I don’t know if the crusaders were really that great, but ah well [3/10/23, 5:00:54 pm] Sam: Not nearly enough [3/10/23, 5:01:26 pm] Oli: I have an income based on dividends and sometimes what I rapidly liquidate and also sometimes money I put into my account if I convince grandpa I need x Y Z amount. [3/10/23, 5:01:39 pm] Oli: You are laughable to think that everyone is exaggerating things or deceiving people. [3/10/23, 5:01:44 pm] Sam: Not about its truth, but about its defensibility. But obviously admitting its untruth would have made the whole argument irrelevant. [3/10/23, 5:01:51 pm] Oli: It must be easier for you to handle people. [3/10/23, 5:02:00 pm] Sam: Who knows, though, it may well be true. I care much less about the financial point than the moral one. [3/10/23, 5:02:06 pm] Oli: Its defensibility? [3/10/23, 5:02:16 pm] Oli: Why don't you just fuck off to put it bluntly. [3/10/23, 5:02:20 pm] Oli: Because this is going nowhere. [3/10/23, 5:02:21 pm] Oli: Sorry. [3/10/23, 5:02:44 pm] Sam: This is probably true, and I’m aware of my distrustful nature, but in this group of people it seems to pay off. But it’s under observation. Sometimes the cost is not worth the payoff. [3/10/23, 5:03:05 pm] Oli: But you have all of these misapprehensions about me based on you exaggerating my specific responses to SPECIFIC situations about charity or things and you love to build up a person from this. [3/10/23, 5:03:18 pm] Sam: This is also a good question. I suppose I’m hoping for the same thing I’ve been hoping for awhile. [3/10/23, 5:03:38 pm] Sam: Well, all situations are specific, aren’t they? [3/10/23, 5:03:56 pm] Oli: Not if you're Sam Robinson-Adams [3/10/23, 5:04:04 pm] Sam: “How could you judge me by how I behave in situations? And specific ones, no less??” [3/10/23, 5:04:32 pm] Sam: “You should judge me by the gauzy generalities I say on WhatsApp!” ‎[3/10/23, 5:04:51 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 5:04:59 pm] Oli: But yes my financial situation is exaggerated. [3/10/23, 5:05:01 pm] Oli: Like my social situation. [3/10/23, 5:05:03 pm] Oli: Like everything else. [3/10/23, 5:05:14 pm] Oli: Even as I keep laying out facts, it's all an exaggeration. [3/10/23, 5:05:17 pm] Sam: Is this an actual admission? If it is, then I’m interested [3/10/23, 5:05:20 pm] Oli: It's a miracle I don't question you more. [3/10/23, 5:05:21 pm] Sam: Ah no it’s not, ok ‎ [3/10/23, 5:05:26 pm] Oli: Called sarcasm [3/10/23, 5:05:47 pm] Sam: I literally bloody asked you to! Haha [3/10/23, 5:05:52 pm] Oli: I shall produce further investment company papers if you want. [3/10/23, 5:05:55 pm] Oli: You are actually quite insane. [3/10/23, 5:05:56 pm] Oli: Wonderfully insane. [3/10/23, 5:06:03 pm] Oli: The thing is I can't really do anything more for you. [3/10/23, 5:06:06 pm] Sam: Here to be specific, and also yesterday [3/10/23, 5:06:15 pm] Oli: You are welcome to take your beliefs and go off into flights of fancy. ‎[3/10/23, 5:06:38 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 5:07:48 pm] Sam: I think this is probably true. I’m sorry about that. I don’t really have anything to say that I haven’t already said, and I know you won’t accept it now but I’m counting - as I often do - on the late-night lying-awake-in-bed thoughts. ‎[3/10/23, 5:08:02 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 5:08:11 pm] Oli: At least I wasn't a supermarket snob. [3/10/23, 5:08:14 pm] Oli: Lidl. Wonderful. [3/10/23, 5:08:30 pm] Sam: Yes, Lidl, can’t say I’m a fan! [3/10/23, 5:08:31 pm] Oli: When I was a poor student at Cardiff. [3/10/23, 5:09:02 pm] Oli: I was much better then. No drugs! [3/10/23, 5:09:06 pm] Oli: Normal living! [3/10/23, 5:09:31 pm] Sam: And who cares? That’s fine! I don’t understand why you - and most people - think it’s more shameful to shop at Lidl than to sneer at the homeless. [3/10/23, 5:09:49 pm] Oli: I don't think it's shameful at all! Why don't you go to Lidl? [3/10/23, 5:09:59 pm] Oli: I haven't been to Lidl in a while! [3/10/23, 5:10:03 pm] Oli: Supermarket snobbery makes no sense at all. [3/10/23, 5:10:04 pm] Sam: Because I don’t like it [3/10/23, 5:10:14 pm] Sam: The stuff they sell is worse [3/10/23, 5:10:15 pm] Oli: Their bakery is good. [3/10/23, 5:10:18 pm] Oli: Some of their food is crap. [3/10/23, 5:10:22 pm] Oli: It depends what you are looking for. [3/10/23, 5:11:18 pm] Sam: I get the sense that there might be a more likeable version of you, and that maybe I’m wrong about your immorality but (as I said earlier with the Saw thing) that you’d sooner die on this hill as an indefensible obscene profligate than admit what’s actually the case about your finances. ‎ [3/10/23, 5:11:45 pm] Oli: Lol [3/10/23, 5:11:56 pm] Oli: You are very amusing. [3/10/23, 5:12:05 pm] Oli: What do you mean the case about my finances? I am not a criminal. [3/10/23, 5:12:06 pm] Sam: And I’m saying that not because the financial point is meant to embarrass you - you hopefully know by now that that’s not how I think - but because it would mean you’re not a terrible person. [3/10/23, 5:12:26 pm] Sam: ‘What is the case’ [3/10/23, 5:12:40 pm] Sam: Ie admit that X or Y, whatever it is, is the case [3/10/23, 5:12:43 pm] Sam: Obtains [3/10/23, 5:12:45 pm] Sam: Is true [3/10/23, 5:12:46 pm] Oli: I was very specific in telling you things that I should not even tell relatives. [3/10/23, 5:12:53 pm] Sam: ‘The world is all that is the case’ [3/10/23, 5:12:54 pm] Sam: Etc [3/10/23, 5:13:06 pm] Sam: ‘Specific’ does not strictly imply ‘correct’ [3/10/23, 5:13:21 pm] Sam: But I don’t know. It may well be that that’s all true. I just am hopeful. [3/10/23, 5:13:24 pm] Oli: I have not lied about finances. Maybe it appears that way to you. I don't know why. You know people in much better positions. [3/10/23, 5:13:42 pm] Oli: It's none of your business quite frankly and we can thank my class A for making me have such loose lips. [3/10/23, 5:13:58 pm] Oli: I am not sure how it makes me a terrible person to begin with. [3/10/23, 5:14:22 pm] Sam: Because I think you have some moral instincts, and if your financial situation weren’t as you say it were then these arguments would make more sense, i.e. you haven’t actually been so tremendously selfish. [3/10/23, 5:14:28 pm] Oli: And why would I be embarrassed? I have had much less money at times. And not embarrassed. Always ways of getting more. [3/10/23, 5:14:37 pm] Oli: Embarrassed is wonderful. [3/10/23, 5:14:56 pm] Oli: Fun [3/10/23, 5:15:08 pm] Sam: I don’t know why you’re asking me that. That’s exactly what I was saying: that that’s not how I think. [3/10/23, 5:15:23 pm] Sam: I realise it is how lots of people think, and how you think. [3/10/23, 5:15:55 pm] Sam: (I think it’s about some notion of class or status - ‘penniless aristocrat’ probably wouldn’t be shameful to you, but ‘penniless nobody’ would be.) [3/10/23, 5:16:14 pm] Oli: If it were meant to or not is irrelevant because the whole concept of embarrassment means one relies on what others think. [3/10/23, 5:16:34 pm] Oli: Haha yes you have these absurd concepts about me. One that I am a nobody or that it's what I genuinely believe myself to be. [3/10/23, 5:16:44 pm] Oli: I don't think so. You keep sending me tree around. Clearly you haven't looked at it yourself. [3/10/23, 5:16:53 pm] Sam: On one’s own projections of what others think, to be precise. [3/10/23, 5:16:53 pm] Oli: Brilliant. [3/10/23, 5:16:59 pm] Oli: Penniless nobody would be very freeing on a lot of levels. [3/10/23, 5:17:10 pm] Sam: Well, shall we suppose it’s true? [3/10/23, 5:17:12 pm] Oli: I don't see how I am penniless when I literally have money to my name. [3/10/23, 5:17:17 pm] Oli: And nor a nobody. [3/10/23, 5:17:31 pm] Oli: You are going down a rabbit hole which is perhaps more suited to the people you often encounter. [3/10/23, 5:17:32 pm] Sam: (As my friend Alan’s late partner very tactfully put it, when suggesting that I stop lying that I was going to Oxford) [3/10/23, 5:17:55 pm] Oli: You are welcome to indulge in these flights of fancy. [3/10/23, 5:18:21 pm] Oli: It means little to me what you think as a result of these last few days which have seen you aggressively constructing false personas of me. [3/10/23, 5:18:22 pm] Sam: Ok, you are a body and you have several pennies, but you know what I mean [3/10/23, 5:19:19 pm] Sam: I actually am being hopeful in constructing this possible persona. I'm trying to be kind. [3/10/23, 5:19:34 pm] Oli: Hahaha. [3/10/23, 5:20:09 pm] Oli: Over the last few days I have been called immoral, callous, a total fraud, akin to a loser, with no self insight, etc. [3/10/23, 5:20:10 pm] Oli: All of that. [3/10/23, 5:20:25 pm] Oli: If that's kind then good luck to you in life. ‎[3/10/23, 5:22:14 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[3/10/23, 5:22:27 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 5:22:30 pm] Sam: No, it's not kind. Sometimes I've said it out of frustration, but you're right, it's not kind. I'm sorry about that. It's a lot to say to someone. [3/10/23, 5:23:15 pm] Sam: What is this? Showing you I've forwarded it? I am totally lost. I don't think I've ever seen this. [3/10/23, 5:23:16 pm] Oli: Your conversation here is irrelevant and hectoring. You want me to come onto your moral level. [3/10/23, 5:23:23 pm] Sam: Please [3/10/23, 5:23:42 pm] Sam: Or yours at least ‎[3/10/23, 5:23:59 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 5:24:04 pm] Oli: From your chat to me [3/10/23, 5:24:08 pm] Oli: You do forget quite conveniently [3/10/23, 5:24:24 pm] Oli: Perhaps you've never read. Don't want to bring into question the persona you've built up about me. [3/10/23, 5:24:27 pm] Oli: I can quite understand. [3/10/23, 5:24:30 pm] Oli: It's a shame. [3/10/23, 5:24:42 pm] Sam: By forwarded, do you mean my screenshot to Jake? I'm a bit lost. The 'forwarded from' text is on Freddie's message. [3/10/23, 5:24:45 pm] Oli: That is life. [3/10/23, 5:24:56 pm] Oli: Both [3/10/23, 5:25:13 pm] Sam: Also, what do you mean "quite conveniently"? How has this been convenient to forget? I do forget lots of random messages. Of course I do..? [3/10/23, 5:26:03 pm] Sam: That's showing a message that Freddie has forwarded from you to me, which I have taken a screenshot of and sent to my friend Jake, just to be clear. I'm not sure what you're saying about it, though. [3/10/23, 5:26:07 pm] Oli: I just don't quite understand what your point is. You are bordering on the absurd. After many days of what feels like genuine conversation with you, and OK, and after you sometimes quite rightly take umbrage, you seem to think I am once again but a creation of your imagination. [3/10/23, 5:26:36 pm] Oli: Am I making up finances? LOL. Am I making up my background? LOL. Am I making up my friends? My cousins? LOL. [3/10/23, 5:26:39 pm] Oli: It is hysterical, Sam. [3/10/23, 5:26:43 pm] Oli: You have wasted many days on this. [3/10/23, 5:26:45 pm] Sam: No, I think you exist, even though you don't think. [3/10/23, 5:26:58 pm] Oli: You want me to come onto your moral level and are berating me for my seeming inability. [3/10/23, 5:27:27 pm] Oli: Fine. But I don't think there's really much more for this to go. [3/10/23, 5:27:42 pm] Sam: This point about finances I think (as I said above) is far from certain, but it strikes me as a plausibility, and if true then it would justify my vaguely liking you despite everything (which I admit is maybe quixotic). [3/10/23, 5:28:04 pm] Sam: Hold on one mo, sorry [3/10/23, 5:28:04 pm] Oli: Hilarious how that would make you like me. [3/10/23, 5:28:24 pm] Oli: Because anyone with anything surplus must instantly help out others. INSTANTLY. INSTANTLY. [3/10/23, 5:28:33 pm] Oli: The only reason I could not be is because I have £0.01. [3/10/23, 5:28:39 pm] Oli: Thus I would be more moral. [3/10/23, 5:28:40 pm] Oli: Ludicrous. [3/10/23, 5:29:00 pm] Oli: For the reasons expressed many days ago (or the general self-conflict), I don't even know what to do and it's not really who I am in many ways. [3/10/23, 5:29:28 pm] Oli: Please berate me for not helping. As you probably realise, it will go in one ear and out the other. I do agree with your points and am open to changing but I am not going to wake up one day suddenly a changed man. [3/10/23, 5:31:42 pm] Sam: I don't really mind how fast your reflexes are. It's more about doing it. [3/10/23, 5:32:06 pm] Oli: And this is probably true because I have been availing of others' free accommodation. [3/10/23, 5:32:08 pm] Sam: But besides the timing aspect, yes, you've said it better than I could. [3/10/23, 5:32:08 pm] Oli: Hence I must be a pauper. [3/10/23, 5:32:11 pm] Oli: Just clever. [3/10/23, 5:32:40 pm] Oli: There was a time last year when I had little to no money though and it was also a help! [3/10/23, 5:32:46 pm] Oli: But life moves on. [3/10/23, 5:32:56 pm] Sam: Sorry, what was a help? Having no money? [3/10/23, 5:33:07 pm] Oli: Free acomm and the Professor's credit card. [3/10/23, 5:33:19 pm] Oli: Which I'm sure you must've heard about, otherwise you are one of the only people who haven't been told that! [3/10/23, 5:33:22 pm] Oli: How funny. [3/10/23, 5:33:38 pm] Oli: He was quite startled when he saw the bill. [3/10/23, 5:33:52 pm] Oli: Now he has inherited a lot of money and begs me to forget about it. [3/10/23, 5:35:17 pm] Sam: Sorry? I'm a bit lost. You stole his credit card? You were given it? [3/10/23, 5:35:31 pm] Oli: It looks like I have not explained a lot about my life to you because it is painstakingly trivial. I just about explained some basics. You are looking for ways to defend the persona you've constructed and criticised, which involve speculating about whether I am truly behaving in the manner I describe because it would exculpate me. OK fine. Why not just question your moral vigour. [3/10/23, 5:35:36 pm] Oli: Given it with the pin number. [3/10/23, 5:36:11 pm] Oli: It's not OK to harass people left right and centre if they don't behave in the manner you want them to. [3/10/23, 5:36:14 pm] Oli: We are a free country thankfully. [3/10/23, 5:36:39 pm] Oli: Have a long and hard think about this please. [3/10/23, 5:37:03 pm] Oli: Or just carry on up the Khyber. It will make little difference to me. [3/10/23, 5:37:05 pm] Sam: No, I'm _hopeful_ about the possibility I suggested, but above all I would like to understand who you are. I have no wish to impose some persona that I know isn't true. [3/10/23, 5:37:10 pm] Sam: I'm really not attacking you here. I'm sorry that some of my thoughts are quite harsh, but I'm not throwing mud, I'm saying what I think. [3/10/23, 5:37:14 pm] Oli: You probably don't mind people ignoring you as a result of your fervour. [3/10/23, 5:37:29 pm] Oli: You've done a good job so far re the latter. [3/10/23, 5:37:30 pm] Sam: (And I know that _that_ thought above all is harsh. This sucks. I don't enjoy it.) [3/10/23, 5:37:46 pm] Sam: I love it! [3/10/23, 5:37:53 pm] Sam: Two birds with one stone! [3/10/23, 5:38:23 pm] Oli: Years devoted to it it seems. [3/10/23, 5:38:33 pm] Oli: All coming out in the last few days even more intently. [3/10/23, 5:38:45 pm] Oli: Which is why I don't believe you'll change. You just can't. [3/10/23, 5:38:48 pm] Oli: It's too much for you isn't it. ‎[3/10/23, 5:39:06 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 5:39:13 pm] Oli: You can be hopeful all you want. [3/10/23, 5:39:49 pm] Oli: Is this him or you? [3/10/23, 5:39:49 pm] Sam: I'm fairly happy with who I am, but I hope I can improve, and I think probably that's a reasonable hope. [3/10/23, 5:39:57 pm] Sam: That's him [3/10/23, 5:39:59 pm] Oli: He isn't me. My passport says I am Oliver. [3/10/23, 5:40:11 pm] Oli: My birth certificate too! [3/10/23, 5:40:33 pm] Oli: It's a reasonable hope for us all. [3/10/23, 5:40:37 pm] Sam: Yes, I did assume that you were using your real name and that Freddie was the false persona! [3/10/23, 5:40:43 pm] Oli: Oh right. [3/10/23, 5:40:56 pm] Sam: Ok, sorry, I never assumed that. Bad wording. I meant that I assumed that _if he were fake_ that would be the case. [3/10/23, 5:41:02 pm] Oli: Hang on. [3/10/23, 5:41:16 pm] Sam: I never got anywhere near the point of being _convinced_ he was fake, but I registered it as a possibility and maybe a plausible one. ‎[3/10/23, 5:41:23 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 5:41:29 pm] Oli: I made Cacroft's Peerage lie too about my fake persona. [3/10/23, 5:41:34 pm] Sam: (Obviously if ever I were convinced I'd not have messaged him.) [3/10/23, 5:41:35 pm] Oli: I am a clever boy! [3/10/23, 5:42:26 pm] Sam: My theory obviously was that you had taken a real name and used that person's identity. I believe identity thieves often use dead children for a similar reason. [3/10/23, 5:42:36 pm] Oli: WOW [3/10/23, 5:42:51 pm] Sam: But that was never quite my best theory. A possibility I considered, though. [3/10/23, 5:42:51 pm] Oli: You are brilliant in your hypotheticals, I must say. [3/10/23, 5:43:01 pm] Oli: I think your conviction does make you often drive off cliffs. [3/10/23, 5:43:05 pm] Sam: Eh, that's a bit of a no-brainer, surely? [3/10/23, 5:43:15 pm] Sam: That one would take a real name, I mean [3/10/23, 5:44:07 pm] Oli: Identity thief. [3/10/23, 5:44:08 pm] Oli: Lol [3/10/23, 5:44:27 pm] Oli: I am starting to wonder whether you are the insane one and not me. [3/10/23, 5:44:30 pm] Oli: or not I. [3/10/23, 5:45:16 pm] Sam: Sorry, one moment [3/10/23, 5:45:50 pm] Oli: You can't for the life of you accept the possibility that people may behave in a different manner to the one which you prescribe. [3/10/23, 5:46:40 pm] Oli: I can't be myself because I am not automatically behaving in the manner Sam would want, so I must have made up X, Y and Z and thus I am fine once I stop deluding myself. [3/10/23, 5:46:50 pm] Oli: I hope you see how ridiculous this is. The problem is you don't. [3/10/23, 5:47:14 pm] Oli: There are millions like it. It is not a nice world. [3/10/23, 5:47:45 pm] Oli: I have shared things with you which I shouldn't have but which I'm sure you have stored. [3/10/23, 5:48:42 pm] Oli: After much prompting I had explained something about my financial situation, which for you was the last blow. How dare I not give this away to Reg on the street instantly. [3/10/23, 5:49:20 pm] Oli: I am trying to get myself into some stability after a long period of instability. A nice way of improving myself slowly is to have nicer conversations with people who actually want to talk about nice things, and I thought we would get onto that. [3/10/23, 5:49:41 pm] Oli: BUT NO because I'm the fucking child catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang (or some other great moral equivalent) and I am seriously troubled and fuck me! [3/10/23, 5:49:43 pm] Oli: Jesus Christ. [3/10/23, 5:53:48 pm] Sam: No. Unbelievably strict morality might dictate that you lower yourself to something near this level. The vast number of poor in the world might act as a sort of heat reservoir, like the temperature of a cupful of boiling water thrown into the sea. But I don't expect anything like that. I'm just a bit horrified - if your finances are as you purport - that you accord yourself _such_ an extravagant life rather than give a few quid to save a child's life. It's a much smaller expectation. [3/10/23, 5:54:24 pm] Sam: Haha, if anyone's the child catcher I should think it's probably me... [3/10/23, 5:54:36 pm] Oli: I shouldn't have purported anything. You simply asked what the score with them was and I answered. [3/10/23, 5:54:45 pm] Oli: It was an error of me to be so honest with you. [3/10/23, 5:54:56 pm] Oli: But you are forgetting what I exactly said... [3/10/23, 5:55:12 pm] Oli: As I said again. 9,000 is not a monthly income for me. [3/10/23, 5:55:31 pm] Oli: I sometimes have a bit more or a bit less depending on what I do. The last few months I've had a bit more because of liquidating some shares. [3/10/23, 5:56:13 pm] Oli: I can withdraw his money and send it to myself if I so wish (and tell him good excuses what's going on with it). [3/10/23, 5:56:33 pm] Oli: You are amazingly blind to nuance and like painting ABSOLUTES to suit your narrative better. [3/10/23, 5:57:06 pm] Oli: It's not an extravagant life at all. [3/10/23, 5:57:13 pm] Oli: I am just functioning along. [3/10/23, 5:57:22 pm] Oli: Income or money does not equal extravagance if one is not spending it on extravagances. [3/10/23, 5:58:06 pm] Sam: If it’s anything of that order of magnitude (above £3k without rent) then I’d say the same. Though I’m surprised and a bit doubtful that you’d have so much at your disposal and choose a free house with someone trying to rape you, rather than a hotel. But horses for courses. [3/10/23, 5:58:08 pm] Oli: I mostly live like a church mouse. I do spend a lot on coke which is maybe an extravagance. Sometimes nice restaurants, an extravagance. Sometimes nice booze, an extravagance. But it is not sunset to sunrise or vice versa extravagance. [3/10/23, 5:58:26 pm] Oli: Rupert de Lisle was not a regular feature of that mad house. [3/10/23, 5:58:47 pm] Oli: His house is essentially a doss house and I am glad to have woken up to that. [3/10/23, 5:58:57 pm] Oli: I have often stayed in hotels. [3/10/23, 5:59:03 pm] Oli: Chelsea Cloisters Sloane Avenue. [3/10/23, 5:59:07 pm] Oli: A nice one with car parking. [3/10/23, 5:59:26 pm] Sam: We are maybe veering into the Slapian…. [3/10/23, 5:59:45 pm] Sam: Though maybe that one’s my fault for pushing the point [3/10/23, 6:00:04 pm] Oli: It is of a magnitude into the specifics of which I shall not get into now (I actually have sent you more than enough for you to carry on your outlandish claims) because of your hectoring, but I am sure anything would surprise you. [3/10/23, 6:00:27 pm] Oli: Maybe you don't have shares but liquidating them is a great way of raising substantial amounts of sums to piss up the wall. [3/10/23, 6:00:40 pm] Oli: That is one thing which I should be controlled over but they don't know about it. [3/10/23, 6:00:58 pm] Oli: I am going to get better on my month off I hope. It's actually 2 weeks plus a week and a half after a week back. [3/10/23, 6:01:28 pm] Oli: It has been our new register ever since that cunt was forced into my existence after that party. [3/10/23, 6:01:49 pm] Sam: Funnily enough, shares are exactly what I have (and mainly all I have). One lot in a private company (Monzo) and the other in a public company (Abrdn, aka Aberdeen (£2.something million for that rebrand), which acquired my co). [3/10/23, 6:02:04 pm] Sam: Not ‘funnily enough’ in an aggressive sense. Just literally a funny coincidence. [3/10/23, 6:02:25 pm] Oli: Good idea. [3/10/23, 6:02:38 pm] Oli: Ding ding [3/10/23, 6:02:44 pm] Sam: Both very substantial, but Monzo hard to realise except if I sell to Stefan, my old investor and Monzo’s main investor, who’d clear the board approval that’s required for anyone to sell shares. [3/10/23, 6:03:00 pm] Sam: So Monzo substantial in theory, really, but depends what rate Stefan would buy at. [3/10/23, 6:03:09 pm] Oli: And I have a very tame and affordable car which is good on petrol and cheaper than the train quite often! [3/10/23, 6:03:23 pm] Oli: I am very usually behaved. The only thing is sometimes I go mad on coke and other things for parties etc. [3/10/23, 6:03:48 pm] Sam: Almost did it once, strangely for a flat, but went off the idea. Amazingly didn’t piss Stefan off too much. (Though I also blew nearly a million of his money, so I guess he has a high threshold for annoyance.) [3/10/23, 6:03:55 pm] Oli: I have a sanctimonious suited man who is called a financial advisor. Maybe you have the same. [3/10/23, 6:04:12 pm] Oli: He does me and grandpa. Odd. So I feel another element of control there. [3/10/23, 6:04:21 pm] Oli: But from time to time I can get away with it. [3/10/23, 6:04:22 pm] Sam: My company provides accountants and lawyers as a sort of perk, but I don’t generally use them, because I’m an idiot [3/10/23, 6:04:29 pm] Oli: Like I have been able to this last year when he's been ill. [3/10/23, 6:04:35 pm] Oli: All of this I've said to you in messages over the last few days. [3/10/23, 6:04:42 pm] Oli: I've actually given you too much of the picture really. [3/10/23, 6:04:44 pm] Oli: I don't know why. [3/10/23, 6:05:22 pm] Sam: Well, this is more sympathetic. I don’t know why you didn’t say it yesterday in the context of that discussion! [3/10/23, 6:05:35 pm] Oli: Because I said it when you first asked. [3/10/23, 6:05:40 pm] Sam: Or maybe you did, but I don’t know why you didn’t keep saying it [3/10/23, 6:05:39 pm] Oli: Why repeat myself like a drugged up mong? [3/10/23, 6:05:43 pm] Sam: Ah snap [3/10/23, 6:05:44 pm] Oli: I sometimes do. [3/10/23, 6:05:55 pm] Sam: Well, it’d be better than having an argument about something you’re not doing!!! [3/10/23, 6:06:08 pm] Oli: We have those anyway. [3/10/23, 6:06:26 pm] Oli: I have you the picture. [3/10/23, 6:06:33 pm] Oli: You then proceed to damn me. [3/10/23, 6:06:36 pm] Oli: gave [3/10/23, 6:06:40 pm] Sam: And I don’t think this _excuses_ you, to be clear, but I wouldn’t have been quite so appalled [3/10/23, 6:07:04 pm] Oli: I am not sure why you think it changes anything because it is the same really. [3/10/23, 6:07:21 pm] Oli: You just can't handle yourself. ‎[3/10/23, 6:07:40 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 6:08:02 pm] Sam: I don’t really know what this means [3/10/23, 6:08:09 pm] Oli: Why would you? [3/10/23, 6:08:12 pm] Oli: You can't handle yourself. [3/10/23, 6:08:17 pm] Oli: In conversation. [3/10/23, 6:08:17 pm] Sam: Well, if you told me, for one, haha [3/10/23, 6:08:32 pm] Oli: Maybe I can't either but this conversation is a clear example of it on your part. [3/10/23, 6:08:51 pm] Oli: I have been insulted and criticised for maybe almost a week? [3/10/23, 6:09:18 pm] Oli: And the only way for you to justify my character is to suggest that I've been presenting a lie to you, thus was justified in receiving the insults also, but now it's all clear so it's fine? [3/10/23, 6:09:24 pm] Oli: This is a serious communicative problem on your part. [3/10/23, 6:09:27 pm] Oli: You won't even realise it. [3/10/23, 6:09:53 pm] Sam: I realise it’s a lot to put on you. I can’t honestly say that I think it’s wrong, but I’m not exactly thrilled about it. [3/10/23, 6:10:07 pm] Sam: (Or realize, but life is too short for Oxford spellings) [3/10/23, 6:10:53 pm] Sam: As far as I could see, yes. Though even what you’ve just said (which it may well be that you’d said and I’d missed) mitigates it a fair bit. [3/10/23, 6:11:13 pm] Oli: What I've just said is no different from what I've said in any of the chat. [3/10/23, 6:11:20 pm] Oli: So I don't see how that follows. [3/10/23, 6:11:28 pm] Sam: See parenthetical [3/10/23, 6:11:31 pm] Oli: This is an extremely bizarre discussion. [3/10/23, 6:11:43 pm] Oli: Realize? [3/10/23, 6:11:46 pm] Sam: Yes [3/10/23, 6:12:09 pm] Sam: No, the bit about your possibly having said it before, and my having missed it [3/10/23, 6:12:10 pm] Oli: You seem to for one think it's wrong of me to receive money and two to not do anything. [3/10/23, 6:12:12 pm] Oli: Fair enough. [3/10/23, 6:12:22 pm] Oli: But I have other priorities firstly and foremostly. [3/10/23, 6:12:24 pm] Sam: This is a good summary of my point, yes. [3/10/23, 6:12:29 pm] Oli: Like sorting myself out and trying to be normal. [3/10/23, 6:12:37 pm] Sam: Yes, exactly, that’s the charge. [3/10/23, 6:12:38 pm] Oli: (How long will that go on for before I can come back and take your taxes you ask) [3/10/23, 6:12:49 pm] Sam: Pretty much [3/10/23, 6:12:56 pm] Oli: (I don't know. Do you often hector your friends with psychological issues?) [3/10/23, 6:13:00 pm] Sam: Yes [3/10/23, 6:13:06 pm] Oli: (And tell them to GET THEM UNDER CONTROL NOW SO THEY CAN HELP KEITH ON THE STREET) [3/10/23, 6:13:09 pm] Oli: Nice [3/10/23, 6:13:12 pm] Sam: Yes [3/10/23, 6:13:19 pm] Oli: Charming! ‎[3/10/23, 6:15:56 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[3/10/23, 6:16:08 pm] Sam: ‎video omitted [3/10/23, 6:17:30 pm] Oli: 🤣 [3/10/23, 6:17:35 pm] Oli: Indeed. Must be hard. [3/10/23, 6:17:45 pm] Oli: Everyone (or lots) have hard crosses to bear! [3/10/23, 6:17:56 pm] Oli: ! [3/10/23, 6:18:48 pm] Sam: It is hard. But it’s worth it. Oh well. Thanks for your concern, and may it become a habit! [3/10/23, 6:20:02 pm] Sam: Ah yes, Hierocles’s circles. I think I mentioned them before. The point is to expand them, not to contract them or to lounge around in your cosy little jacuzzi of solipsism right at the bottom there! ‎[3/10/23, 6:35:09 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 6:35:27 pm] Oli: My father’s father Hahn is my Shalom side. To your horror you may find some familiarity [3/10/23, 6:35:27 pm] Oli: It’s possible you are not au fait with Ashkenazi genealogy [3/10/23, 6:35:27 pm] Oli: It’s something I should look into more as well! [3/10/23, 6:35:48 pm] Sam: I think I am Ashkenazi on both those sides, but no I’m not at all au fait [3/10/23, 6:36:01 pm] Sam: Or Ashkenazim or whatever the correct noun is [3/10/23, 6:36:59 pm] Sam: Possibly I would! Frankfurt Jews I guess! Though even the great grandmother would obv have more than just that one line of ancestry, and maybe more than one Jewish, so could be related in other ways. Certainly not ancient nobility so not many generations to factor in. [3/10/23, 6:38:24 pm] Sam: Anyway I’m sorry to say all this. I really really don’t relish it. I feel for you. But I can’t lie. I do consider it obscene to spend your life so cheaply on ridiculous frivolities when such tiny amounts could save people from agonising death. [3/10/23, 6:41:32 pm] Sam: That’s the most extreme example, but you could help people having first-world problems. One of the things I do with my friend Phil is reading r/assistance (subreddit). Asthma inhalers - for reasons you probably recall - pop up horrifyingly often, and I’m especially allergic to them, I can’t ignore someone struggling to breathe. It doesn’t matter if they’re in front of me or behind a keyboard in another town, it horrifies me the exact same. It’s very cheap to help with. Just one more example. (I can give you countless ways to help people if they’d be welcome, which they wouldn’t be.) [3/10/23, 6:44:03 pm] Oli: You just interpret this through your own lens. These circles contradict the doctrines of Peter Singer or JS Mill/Bentham's utilitarianism: what they say is that human life has a purpose and part of this purpose is that we are socially embedded in certain relationships, in a community, and one can't just skip to the outer circle without dealing without the inner ones first. [3/10/23, 6:44:19 pm] Oli: You seem literally incapable of giving me the benefit of the doubt on any issue. In every issue, I am a monster who must drink the blood of innocent orphans. ‎[3/10/23, 6:46:04 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 6:46:22 pm] Oli: I don't know what he knows or doesn't know about them. I have not discussed anything like this with him. [3/10/23, 6:47:21 pm] Oli: Fair enough. [3/10/23, 6:47:26 pm] Oli: You are blind to the main issue it seems though. [3/10/23, 6:47:31 pm] Oli: One cannot just skip to the outer circle. [3/10/23, 6:47:33 pm] Sam: I was correcting my ‘I must have mentioned them before’. [3/10/23, 6:47:43 pm] Sam: Literally any circle will do. [3/10/23, 6:47:49 pm] Oli: The main issue is this: if hedonism is true, then all people have equal moral priority. [3/10/23, 6:48:03 pm] Oli: Indeed. [3/10/23, 6:48:04 pm] Sam: No, not exactly, but I do believe that. [3/10/23, 6:48:40 pm] Sam: If hedonic utilitarianism is true then that follows, yes. Or not so much ‘follows’ as “that’s the theory”. [3/10/23, 6:49:02 pm] Oli: Yes. [3/10/23, 6:49:16 pm] Oli: That's the theory. [3/10/23, 6:49:50 pm] Sam: And that’s too much to expect of anyone, as I said. But I am expecting nowhere _near_ that of you. [3/10/23, 6:50:00 pm] Oli: Indeed. [3/10/23, 6:50:09 pm] Oli: You seem to want to do this all overnight. [3/10/23, 6:50:35 pm] Sam: All of what? [3/10/23, 6:50:56 pm] Oli: Contract the circles. [3/10/23, 6:50:57 pm] Sam: Even considering your boyfriend would be _something_, haha [3/10/23, 6:51:44 pm] Oli: I do. [3/10/23, 6:51:47 pm] Oli: Lol [3/10/23, 6:51:58 pm] Sam: Well, you’re not one day old, but let’s start where we are. I think I first followed up two days later. I had already mentioned it a month or two before our Friday chat. It’s now Tuesday. Nothing yet. [3/10/23, 6:52:00 pm] Oli: You seem to have created me into the image of this autistic moron who doesn't think of anyone or anything. [3/10/23, 6:52:21 pm] Oli: ?? [3/10/23, 6:52:30 pm] Oli: I am not going to bend to your whim in that time. [3/10/23, 6:52:35 pm] Oli: I have priorities to sort MYSELF OUT. [3/10/23, 6:52:38 pm] Oli: Grow up. [3/10/23, 6:52:39 pm] Sam: Autistic people are not at all indifferent, fwiw. Just a vanilla moron is probably closer to my understanding. [3/10/23, 6:52:43 pm] Oli: What is actually wrong with you? [3/10/23, 6:53:04 pm] Oli: Why are you being so wasteful of your own time in this pursuit of me doing something? [3/10/23, 6:53:09 pm] Sam: There’s a list in my notes. The relevant ailment here seems to be an awareness of the outside world. [3/10/23, 6:53:11 pm] Oli: I am trying to sort myself out and hoped that talking to you could. [3/10/23, 6:53:18 pm] Oli: It didn't help at all. [3/10/23, 6:53:20 pm] Sam: This is a good question but a strange one for you to ask. [3/10/23, 6:53:41 pm] Oli: No it's me asking what I have done for the past few hours. [3/10/23, 6:53:50 pm] Oli: Why bother with this? I'm clearly troubled in some way and trying to sort myself out in my own way. [3/10/23, 6:53:57 pm] Sam: Same went for Ryan - to some extent my help for him was hard to justify considering the alternative uses of that money. [3/10/23, 6:53:58 pm] Oli: Stop trying to act like a Dickensian charity collector and harassing me. [3/10/23, 6:54:02 pm] Oli: You have got me wrong. [3/10/23, 6:54:08 pm] Oli: I want to live my life and sort it out as I can. [3/10/23, 6:54:48 pm] Oli: A utilitarian hedonist. Doesn't understand that it takes more than "giving a few quid". [3/10/23, 6:54:49 pm] Sam: I’m sorry I’ve been harsh. I care about you and I hope you’re well. If you stop saying it’s ok to not care about people, I’ll stop disagreeing. But you don’t want to talk about sorting out your life, you want to defend it. [3/10/23, 6:55:00 pm] Oli: So, with that, you're not 'narrowing the circles' you're obliterating them altogether. [3/10/23, 6:55:24 pm] Oli: No. I want to defend for a time my strategy of surviving by isolating myself from a large amount of the world. [3/10/23, 6:55:36 pm] Oli: I can't talk about sorting my life out with you. ‎[3/10/23, 6:55:46 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 6:55:52 pm] Oli: Liberality is the wisdom to know how much and when to give and to whom. [3/10/23, 6:56:05 pm] Sam: Yes, nothing, apparently [3/10/23, 6:56:14 pm] Oli: You have no understanding of character. You think being a good character is just giving loads to others all the time. No concept of moderation, wisdom, restraint or prudence. [3/10/23, 6:56:21 pm] Oli: No. I am not in the right frame of mind. [3/10/23, 6:56:23 pm] Oli: I am sorting myself out. [3/10/23, 6:56:25 pm] Sam: Let’s cynically whinge about how charities aren’t good enough so we can justify doing utterly nothing [3/10/23, 6:56:29 pm] Oli: I am not going to cowtow to your criticisms. [3/10/23, 6:56:31 pm] Sam: Good sport [3/10/23, 6:56:39 pm] Oli: I am just saying that if you want this framework you haven't addressed it properly either. [3/10/23, 6:56:48 pm] Oli: You are coming at me like a rabid loon. [3/10/23, 6:56:49 pm] Sam: If that’s what you call the idea of conscience, then yes I agree [3/10/23, 6:57:06 pm] Sam: I certainly feel like one by now! [3/10/23, 6:57:16 pm] Oli: Quite [3/10/23, 6:57:27 pm] Sam: And you know that what I’m saying is true. And I know you know it, and you know I know you know it. [3/10/23, 6:57:55 pm] Oli: Was this in our chat this week? I missed this. [3/10/23, 6:58:08 pm] Oli: Yes. I'm simply telling you to fuck off with harassing me. ‎[3/10/23, 6:58:09 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 6:58:11 pm] Oli: And to let me sort myself out. [3/10/23, 6:58:46 pm] Sam: Well what the fuck else do you think I’m going to do? What other option is there?? [3/10/23, 6:58:53 pm] Sam: No, this was to Freddie [3/10/23, 7:01:13 pm] Sam: Hahaha this is great, I just read this one! Lord Zarathustra of Henley! [3/10/23, 7:02:14 pm] Oli: Henley is once a year by the way. [3/10/23, 7:02:22 pm] Oli: One week a year. [3/10/23, 7:03:01 pm] Sam: I mean, I don’t even think you realise how thoroughgoingly insincere you are. It’s a sickness. It’s why I want to eradicate it from myself. (I’m sure you want to come off the coke, I believe that, but that you intend to change in any way morally … I think that’s as true as it was when you said it back in July. ‘Give me time to think’, haha.) [3/10/23, 7:03:03 pm] Oli: I thought we were going to get to know each other and have friendly discussions about things, once you had got over the false persona you'd created for me. Instead, no: DONATE MY BOY! [3/10/23, 7:03:18 pm] Oli: So the other option is not to do anything quite frankly (for you). [3/10/23, 7:03:38 pm] Oli: Because what you're doing now isn't helping at all. [3/10/23, 7:03:56 pm] Sam: So did I [3/10/23, 7:04:20 pm] Sam: I hadn’t realised that “please do something for others” would provoke such horror [3/10/23, 7:04:35 pm] Oli: If it is manifest in the way you do it, then yes it is. [3/10/23, 7:04:41 pm] Oli: 'DO IT. YOU'RE IMMORAL. YOU'RE CRUEL. FUCKING DO IT!' [3/10/23, 7:04:44 pm] Sam: I’m fine, you don’t need to do anything for me. There are others. [3/10/23, 7:04:57 pm] Sam: Yes, pretty much [3/10/23, 7:04:59 pm] Oli: No. The answer to your question is to not do anything else. [3/10/23, 7:05:22 pm] Oli: Do you think this is the way to talk to someone who is going through a lot in their head and trying to resolve it and thought, wrongly, by involving you in it he would be able to talk about it? [3/10/23, 7:05:25 pm] Sam: What? I’m sorry? I can’t parse this. [3/10/23, 7:05:29 pm] Oli: I think you need to take a long, hard look at the way you talk to people. [3/10/23, 7:05:46 pm] Sam: That might be the case. The fact remains that it is true. [3/10/23, 7:06:01 pm] Oli: 'Well what the fuck else do you think I’m going to do? What other option is there??' (your response to my question/request to let me sort myself out) the other option: fuck off [3/10/23, 7:06:32 pm] Oli: Yes to both. [3/10/23, 7:07:14 pm] Oli: I just want to sort myself out. [3/10/23, 7:07:18 pm] Sam: Well, whether I fucked off or not, I would be letting you undergo moral self-improvement. There is virtually no way whatsoever that I can do anything _but_ let you do that. How would I even compel you? It’s a complete nonsense. It’s almost the one thing imaginable that is by definition impossible to make someone else do. ‎ [3/10/23, 7:07:18 pm] Oli: I will do. [3/10/23, 7:07:22 pm] Oli: I will become a better person. [3/10/23, 7:07:29 pm] Oli: But it may take time. [3/10/23, 7:07:50 pm] Oli: And to an extent I am not as bad as you think. For some reason I've created myself, playing up to your characterisations of me, as a monster. [3/10/23, 7:08:14 pm] Sam: Well, frankly, if that were true it would be a very appropriate response. It is monstrous. [3/10/23, 7:08:50 pm] Sam: And don’t reply with some absurd comment that I’m expecting you to prostitute yourself on the streets of Mogadishu to buy malaria nets. We are nowhere near that. [3/10/23, 7:08:55 pm] Oli: Oh. I see your point. No. I did not expect to be constantly lectured on it every second of the day. But to elicit some appreciation for my circumstances and to maybe have come to a way of possibly developing them and moving on. [3/10/23, 7:09:27 pm] Sam: Sorry, developing what? [3/10/23, 7:09:53 pm] Oli: Developing my circumstances or my views on life as a result of my circumstances and moving on. [3/10/23, 7:10:10 pm] Oli: You are not the person with whom to do that, primarily because you know little to nothing about me and don't want to know anything else. [3/10/23, 7:10:30 pm] Sam: Does ‘moving on’ happen to mean “talking about something else and letting you definitely work on this moral self-improvement stuff in the evenings maybe”? [3/10/23, 7:10:31 pm] Oli: And secondly because you have this burning desire to lecture anyone with something you believe to be up for grabs on how to behave. [3/10/23, 7:10:39 pm] Sam: Thank you! [3/10/23, 7:10:42 pm] Oli: You can't understand that people can be troubled and have things. [3/10/23, 7:10:45 pm] Oli: No. That's not enough. [3/10/23, 7:10:55 pm] Oli: You've got this fucking morality chained at your hip and precluding you from being personable to others. [3/10/23, 7:10:58 pm] Sam: Hahah, mild mental illness rears its head again! [3/10/23, 7:11:04 pm] Sam: Sluggish schizophrenia! [3/10/23, 7:11:08 pm] Oli: And now making jokes about it. [3/10/23, 7:11:09 pm] Sam: Drapetomania! [3/10/23, 7:11:15 pm] Sam: Affluenza indeed! [3/10/23, 7:11:16 pm] Oli: You should reassess the way in which you talk to people. [3/10/23, 7:11:52 pm] Sam: I have and frankly I think it’s condign [3/10/23, 7:11:53 pm] Oli: It means stop harassing me with the idea of subscribing to your morality when I am in a different mental boat and trying to sort myself out. [3/10/23, 7:12:11 pm] Oli: Good for you. [3/10/23, 7:12:49 pm] Sam: Ah, now I’m collecting magazine subscriptions, haha. I thought I was asking you to care about others. Saint, messiah, crusader, and now door-to-door salesman! [3/10/23, 7:13:04 pm] Oli: All of them. [3/10/23, 7:13:06 pm] Sam: And then ‘cruel world’ when it’s someone else, etc [3/10/23, 7:13:18 pm] Sam: Lingua Tertii Imperii, lol [3/10/23, 7:13:19 pm] Oli: It's not as simple as that. Stop making stupid simplificaitons. [3/10/23, 7:13:32 pm] Oli: You really don't understand me or anything about me. [3/10/23, 7:13:32 pm] Sam: And enough to convince yourself or at least assuage your withered moribund old conscience [3/10/23, 7:13:35 pm] Oli: Are you high on meth? [3/10/23, 7:13:37 pm] Oli: What is going on? [3/10/23, 7:13:38 pm] Sam: Or perhaps batter it to death [3/10/23, 7:13:46 pm] Oli: There's some deep problem with your understanding and communicating to others. [3/10/23, 7:13:59 pm] Oli: It is a cruel world. [3/10/23, 7:14:07 pm] Sam: No, I’m communicating exactly what I want to communicate, thanks, haha. It may not be what you want to hear. [3/10/23, 7:14:07 pm] Oli: Stop trying to make me get on horseback and rectify it. [3/10/23, 7:14:11 pm] Oli: I am sorting myself out. [3/10/23, 7:14:15 pm] Oli: Fine. [3/10/23, 7:14:17 pm] Oli: Good for you! [3/10/23, 7:14:24 pm] Sam: But I come not to bring peace but with the sword [3/10/23, 7:14:38 pm] Oli: Pen is mightier than the sword ‎[3/10/23, 7:14:48 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 7:15:06 pm] Sam: Please stop raping Hierocles’s corpse, lol [3/10/23, 7:15:15 pm] Oli: You think you understand him. [3/10/23, 7:15:17 pm] Oli: You don't really. [3/10/23, 7:15:24 pm] Oli: As evinced by the shit you're spouting here. [3/10/23, 7:15:27 pm] Sam: Literally laughed out loud [3/10/23, 7:15:30 pm] Oli: Good for you. [3/10/23, 7:15:32 pm] Sam: Not in an aggressive way [3/10/23, 7:15:45 pm] Sam: But this sounds like 14 year old girls on Facebook if they became Stoics, lol [3/10/23, 7:15:49 pm] Oli: I wonder are you actually bullying me lol? [3/10/23, 7:15:52 pm] Oli: It's all very odd. [3/10/23, 7:16:19 pm] Sam: I dunno. Maybe? It’s a vague term. If I am, then I’m pretty happy with it. [3/10/23, 7:16:29 pm] Oli: Actually a friend told me to send it because he said it might be 'what this idiot needs to understand'. [3/10/23, 7:16:35 pm] Oli: But he was clearly wrong in that too. [3/10/23, 7:16:37 pm] Sam: To you and to many others! [3/10/23, 7:16:48 pm] Sam: And no, I understand it well. [3/10/23, 7:16:57 pm] Oli: But the point remains that I have duties to myself firstly. [3/10/23, 7:16:59 pm] Oli: I must sort myself out. ‎[3/10/23, 7:22:05 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 7:23:26 pm] Sam: I hate to be like “haha I am expert”, but here the gap between (a) your friend’s idiot comment about his misinterpretation of Hierocles and (b) my extreme overfamiliarity with this fucking topic is too vast not to comment. [3/10/23, 7:23:36 pm] Sam: Stupid thing to be expert about I know! [3/10/23, 7:24:23 pm] Sam: Things that bad with Xander? [3/10/23, 7:24:46 pm] Sam: Haha, sorry, scratch that. But yes ok if you mean it sincerely. I’m a bit lost at where we are on that spectrum. [3/10/23, 7:24:58 pm] Sam: I don’t think you’re being totally calculating, to be fair, I’m not saying that. [3/10/23, 7:25:15 pm] Sam: But you do remember saying the exact same thing several months ago, right? [3/10/23, 7:25:26 pm] Oli: ??.. [3/10/23, 7:25:44 pm] Oli: So it's ha I know more instead of just clarifying the meaning. [3/10/23, 7:25:54 pm] Sam: What progress exactly can have been made when five days ago you were defending the position that “I don’t care about anyone else but myself and that’s fine”? [3/10/23, 7:26:05 pm] Sam: I mean, I’d already done that [3/10/23, 7:26:08 pm] Oli: Yes. [3/10/23, 7:26:15 pm] Oli: With the image you sent? [3/10/23, 7:26:24 pm] Sam: And I didn’t say “haha I know more” until you said “haha my friend knows more” [3/10/23, 7:26:40 pm] Sam: And even then I ordinarily wouldn’t say this kinda thing, but it was so absurdly wrong that … I’m human [3/10/23, 7:26:42 pm] Oli: Yes but I didn't say that. I said he feels he did. [3/10/23, 7:26:52 pm] Oli: You're human?! Goodness! [3/10/23, 7:26:58 pm] Oli: That's not been an allowed defence in this chat before?! [3/10/23, 7:27:00 pm] Oli: FUCKING HELL! [3/10/23, 7:27:07 pm] Oli: No progress. [3/10/23, 7:27:10 pm] Oli: Regress. [3/10/23, 7:27:15 pm] Oli: No. [3/10/23, 7:27:22 pm] Oli: What is your obsession with this about also? [3/10/23, 7:27:31 pm] Oli: You seem to get every single fact about me wrong. [3/10/23, 7:27:34 pm] Sam: With what? [3/10/23, 7:27:51 pm] Sam: What can I say? I’m an optimist! [3/10/23, 7:27:51 pm] Oli: We are nowhere. I am somewhere on the road to trying to sort myself out. [3/10/23, 7:27:53 pm] Oli: This is not helping. [3/10/23, 7:27:59 pm] Oli: This is the reverse of helping. [3/10/23, 7:28:08 pm] Sam: Sorry, that was a dickish comment. My bad. I’m just being silly. [3/10/23, 7:28:24 pm] Sam: That was pointlessly digging in the knife. [3/10/23, 7:28:30 pm] Oli: Like most of your chats. [3/10/23, 7:28:56 pm] Sam: Sometimes one can’t resist making a joke somehow. Not to do with you in this case. I just want to be clear - I don’t really care if you forgive me or not but I want to communicate it. [3/10/23, 7:29:10 pm] Oli: OK. You seem to be at a loss as to when we can expand beyond the circles to the further ones, to reduce distance. You also seem to think that THIS MUST HAPPEN NOW NOW NOW. You don't seem to understand that people have problems which limit their focus. [3/10/23, 7:30:04 pm] Sam: A bit like when Alex Camm was being very grumpy about having to prostitute himself to get money, and he made some comment about “if I don’t get the money, I’ll be fucked”, and I said “well technically you’ll be fucked either way”. [3/10/23, 7:30:24 pm] Sam: Terrible terrible thing to joke about but impossible to resist…. [3/10/23, 7:30:39 pm] Sam: But no I’m just being silly. I thought you might want some company. [3/10/23, 7:31:04 pm] Sam: No, not now, but at some point. You realise there’s a spectrum between ‘now’ and ‘at the end of time’? [3/10/23, 7:31:49 pm] Oli: Yes. You seem to think I'm trying to use this as a bargaining chip to put you off. No. I don't need to. I am not forced to listen to you at any time. [3/10/23, 7:32:01 pm] Oli: I'm simply saying that I am not in the right mental state and have not been for many years. [3/10/23, 7:32:32 pm] Oli: And what turned into me trying to voice this somehow and talk to you and get to know you better turned into an opportunity for you to harass me and paint me as another one of your enemies, or as another tosser you want to get one over on. [3/10/23, 7:32:46 pm] Oli: Good for you. [3/10/23, 7:32:52 pm] Oli: Another successful interaction there. [3/10/23, 7:34:39 pm] Sam: No, he shouted at me and I apologised because it was a cruel joke. And I said to Damien he was well within his rights to shout at me. ‎[3/10/23, 7:34:43 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 7:35:22 pm] Sam: Because he was, and you’re not. (Not that I mind the shouting. But I mind the not-doing. The error is all in the not done, as Pound says!) [3/10/23, 7:35:26 pm] Oli: I meant this chat as a whole [3/10/23, 7:35:40 pm] Oli: I think you were probably right to say what you did to him. [3/10/23, 7:35:46 pm] Sam: Well, don’t let’s despair. I think you might have some pangs of conscience. [3/10/23, 7:35:48 pm] Oli: By the way he has been characterised to me by you and Alex. [3/10/23, 7:35:51 pm] Oli: Disappointing really [3/10/23, 7:35:58 pm] Sam: How do you mean? [3/10/23, 7:36:22 pm] Sam: (I’m sorry about this, I do like you as a friend, but I also do believe this.) [3/10/23, 7:36:34 pm] Oli: Yes he is far more morally astute than I am isn’t he. [3/10/23, 7:36:39 pm] Sam: But maybe best to move on for now. It’d be nice to talk about something else. [3/10/23, 7:36:43 pm] Oli: He’s the apex of morality. [3/10/23, 7:36:53 pm] Oli: You couldn’t make this up if you tried. [3/10/23, 7:36:55 pm] Sam: Damien? Alex? This is me talking to Damien about Alex shouting at me. [3/10/23, 7:37:01 pm] Oli: Damien [3/10/23, 7:37:05 pm] Oli: Oh I see [3/10/23, 7:37:08 pm] Sam: I did, and I did [3/10/23, 7:37:08 pm] Oli: Well I don’t know. [3/10/23, 7:37:12 pm] Oli: Yes [3/10/23, 7:37:30 pm] Sam: I’m sorry I’m saying this [3/10/23, 7:37:42 pm] Sam: Look, I like you, I’m fond of you, I like talking to you [3/10/23, 7:38:00 pm] Sam: I am as distressed by this as you are - or at least somewhere near it [3/10/23, 7:39:11 pm] Sam: And I wish we could have a normal friendly conversation. I don’t enjoy arguing. In fact I hate it. But if you say this stuff my choice is to be honest or be an accomplice (adapting Zola there!). [3/10/23, 7:39:31 pm] Sam: Anyway, I would love to bitch about Damien, if you’re willing. I am tired and depressed from arguing and I miss my friend. [3/10/23, 8:01:50 pm] Oli: I am having a drink after today’s latest instalment of nastiness and harassment. [3/10/23, 8:01:57 pm] Oli: You may need one too! [3/10/23, 8:01:59 pm] Oli: May be better after it. [3/10/23, 8:02:15 pm] Sam: Having one! Will reply to any other texts in a mo! [3/10/23, 8:18:02 pm] Sam: If you don’t want to talk to me, then you’re very welcome to block me. I have said this many, many times, and you have insisted on talking to me every one of those times. Do you want to call it off? I don’t, but I will do so if you don’t want this conversation to carry on. What I won’t do is stop caring. [3/10/23, 8:21:26 pm] Sam: I’m sorry that this hurts. I wish this were never at issue. I miss talking to you. [3/10/23, 8:22:26 pm] Sam: I’m not going to lie or condone something that I think is wrong, because I know that my opinion means something to you, and … well, my opinion about this is what you know it is. [3/10/23, 8:25:19 pm] Sam: So we’re at an impasse. Of course I’ll block you if you would that, but … ugh, I dunno. I’m certain that I miss talking to you and I’m certain that I believe this and I won’t lie. [3/10/23, 8:27:28 pm] Sam: Also sorry, I now see how you misread this. That was badly worded. [3/10/23, 8:27:31 pm] Oli: Just having another drink [3/10/23, 8:27:48 pm] Sam: I certainly don’t think Damien was right to shout at me (on the main such occasion) (!) [3/10/23, 8:28:41 pm] Sam: Well, I would love to chat about something or anything else, whenever you’re around 🥺 ‎[3/10/23, 8:43:03 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[3/10/23, 8:43:57 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[3/10/23, 8:44:29 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [3/10/23, 8:44:31 pm] Oli: Haha ‎[3/10/23, 8:46:53 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[3/10/23, 8:47:51 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[3/10/23, 8:48:22 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[3/10/23, 8:49:16 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[3/10/23, 8:49:55 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [3/10/23, 8:50:00 pm] Oli: Yes shall go back to texts [3/10/23, 8:50:04 pm] Oli: Was just experimenting with this [3/10/23, 8:53:41 pm] Sam: Sorry, this hurt me to read. I don’t want to twist the knife if you already got the point. The trouble is that you spend half the time saying that I’m twisting the knife and the other half making me think the knife hasn’t even nicked your skin. But perhaps that’s to be expected and perhaps I need to take that with a pinch of salt. [3/10/23, 9:05:31 pm] Sam: Of course the powerful have wised up to this new psychiatric vocabulary and they know to claim psychiatric illness to get out of anything and everything. (See eg Huw Edwards’s laser-quick “I have severe perv disorder and have been carted off to bedlam” statement after his scandal broke.) And I have my reservations about this chat. But I leave it to you and your conscience, and if ever you’re feeling put upon then I will block you and call it a day. [3/10/23, 9:05:56 pm] Sam: (I don’t really block per se, I just archive, but ykwim) [3/10/23, 9:06:21 pm] Oli: I had assumed I was already occupying space in the archives 🤣 [3/10/23, 9:06:33 pm] Oli: It’s not a case of blocking I don’t think. [3/10/23, 9:06:40 pm] Oli: But I don’t know what is going on. [3/10/23, 9:13:09 pm] Sam: Oxford spelling. Would be correct or at least traditional (French ‘ise’ ending when French, Greek ‘ize’ ending when Greek) had I not inexplicably misidentified it as a Greek root. Obviously it’s from res. I don’t know how I was so stupid. Could prob just get away with it now but oh well, I didn’t want to mystify you. But yes, I was saying life is too short to remember whether every given verb is from French (usu orig Latin) or Greek. And some of course are both. [3/10/23, 9:14:54 pm] Sam: I suppose what’s going on is that I have wrestled with this for months - please don’t make me describe the behaviour and priorities I find offensive - and I can’t quite bear it any more. I also miss your friendship. I dunno. [3/10/23, 9:18:03 pm] Oli: You mean me when you say you miss your friend? [3/10/23, 9:18:06 pm] Oli: Goodness!!! [3/10/23, 9:18:22 pm] Oli: For months? Maybe it has been. [3/10/23, 9:18:45 pm] Sam: Yes [3/10/23, 9:19:05 pm] Sam: Also yes - since my flaming out of the Alex Camm chat [3/10/23, 9:19:10 pm] Oli: I never knew you thought of me since. [3/10/23, 9:19:16 pm] Oli: As such* [3/10/23, 9:19:19 pm] Oli: Not since [3/10/23, 9:19:30 pm] Sam: Of course [3/10/23, 9:20:01 pm] Sam: I mean, one of my fairly few friends [3/10/23, 9:20:34 pm] Oli: ❤️ [3/10/23, 9:21:06 pm] Sam: And I like it that way, I know people are attracted to me as a friend and as a whatever (fuck knows why but it is my experience, and I get the sense also yours), but it means I don’t have many other people I like talking to [3/10/23, 9:21:26 pm] Sam: Not to be Slapian there but I’m totally happy to be honest about that [3/10/23, 9:21:55 pm] Sam: The insults never land, from anyone really, but it hurts me not to be able to talk to you [3/10/23, 9:22:18 pm] Sam: I dunno [3/10/23, 9:22:57 pm] Sam: I don’t want to surrender my principles for my friends, but I don’t want to surrender my friends, so this kinda sucks [3/10/23, 9:23:27 pm] Sam: I’m not saying you have to surrender your principles. Well, I am, but not on this sort of ground, because that feels wrong (and a bit like Pascal’s wager - it wouldn’t produce a very sincere kind of belief). [3/10/23, 9:24:04 pm] Sam: So maybe we just leave this topic for now, I dunno really, but it upsets me [3/10/23, 9:24:56 pm] Sam: And clearly neither of us is going to yield, and … again I’d be lying if I said ‘fair enough’ or ‘maybe you’re right’ or whatever, but I miss you and I’m human. [3/10/23, 9:25:07 pm] Sam: I’m still human but I occasionally need to pause because I’m human [3/10/23, 9:25:40 pm] Sam: 🥺 [3/10/23, 9:26:22 pm] Sam: Oh I suppose I should listen to your audio messages … or maybe not, haha, I dunno [3/10/23, 9:27:24 pm] Oli: Yes I suppose they are thoughts also about the conversation. [3/10/23, 9:27:33 pm] Oli: I didn’t know what to write [3/10/23, 9:31:26 pm] Sam: Sorry. I feel sad about all this. I feel a bit like I did about Roman when he went to Mexico to detox for a year. I dunno, after so much time seeing someone three times a week and going to the pub on the riverside on Thursdays at the exact same time and getting the exact same seat (both autistic) it was weird being suddenly without someone at all, and I feel the same now. [3/10/23, 9:32:39 pm] Sam: Haha, that time I was actually so lonely that I ordered him an Oculus (at vast expense to this tiny seaside hamlet in Mexico) so we could both play games on our Oculuses (Oculi?) [3/10/23, 9:32:47 pm] Sam: It was sweet 🍬 [3/10/23, 9:32:54 pm] Oli: I do not do games like that much! [3/10/23, 9:33:05 pm] Oli: Maybe Oculi would be good for arguments [3/10/23, 9:33:09 pm] Sam: I’m generally a loner by choice but I like my few people [3/10/23, 9:33:30 pm] Sam: Neither do I, but it meant we could walk around in the silly little teletubbies world [3/10/23, 9:33:42 pm] Sam: That would be very entertaining [3/10/23, 9:33:55 pm] Sam: 😇 [3/10/23, 9:34:27 pm] Sam: God… I mean, I don’t want to make it sound like being moral requires us to isolate ourselves from anyone who disagrees, because I don’t think that at all [3/10/23, 9:34:45 pm] Oli: Teletubbies game??? [3/10/23, 9:34:51 pm] Sam: But usually one agrees about values and disagrees about higher-order stuff, and that can be reconciled [3/10/23, 9:34:52 pm] Oli: My god you must’ve been desperate. [3/10/23, 9:35:12 pm] Sam: In truth I think you do agree on values though, and it can be worked out [3/10/23, 9:35:41 pm] Sam: Not literally but that’s my impression of all the funny landscapes dreamt up by whoever designs these things [3/10/23, 9:36:01 pm] Sam: Someone designed a game where you could sit in a London pub, haha, I wish I still had the bloody thing to show you [3/10/23, 9:37:30 pm] Sam: Yes I was! But I would take any of my few good people a million times in a million over the kinds of people my polyamicous friends count as their friends [3/10/23, 9:37:36 pm] Sam: You included [3/10/23, 9:37:43 pm] Sam: For reasons I don’t entirely understand [3/10/23, 9:39:14 pm] Sam: But still … shit, I’m sorry, I meant that to be kind. Please talk to me. I miss you. I wish we could chat. 😕 [3/10/23, 9:39:28 pm] Oli: Yes I must work it out [3/10/23, 9:40:44 pm] Sam: Wait I’ll listen to your voice messages [3/10/23, 9:43:24 pm] Sam: I sympathise with this. Maybe I’ve been so annoyed by some of the more inane stuff that I’ve bulldozed over the more meritorious points. I care about you and I hope you’re ok. I think my reaction is human and I’ll fix that. [3/10/23, 9:47:27 pm] Sam: I mean, is the answer to this question from your grandfather not something like “human beings, like other carbon-based life forms, are traditionally partial to territory and shelter”?? [3/10/23, 9:47:52 pm] Sam: Territory, status, and love, as Auden says [3/10/23, 9:48:16 pm] Sam: Ridiculous old queen that he was, that’s a decent enumeration I think [3/10/23, 9:50:32 pm] Sam: Doing so, so doing, interchangeable, though these slightly baroque inversions are I suspect a hangover from English stylists’ weird thing (since Dryden etc) of pretending English is a synthetic language where word order is a question of style, which it isn’t and therefore it isn’t and it’s a vexed question ‎[3/10/23, 9:51:35 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [3/10/23, 9:52:22 pm] Sam: And what is this in the same message about grammatical errors? I don’t remember that [3/10/23, 9:54:37 pm] Sam: And, well, would you do in my position? You’ve said this for months. Is there a timeline? I’ve taken this as insincere, but if it’s sincere then I’m not sure how exactly to handle it. I don’t think I want to be friends with someone who proudly thinks this stuff and doesn’t intend to change, and part of what’s so frustrating here is that you’ve oscillated between defending it sometimes and then saying it’s a transitional stage othertimes, and I don’t know exactly what or whether to believe [3/10/23, 9:54:48 pm] Sam: Sorry, the ‘well’ wasn’t meant to sound aggressive [3/10/23, 9:56:09 pm] Sam: But if you had a friend who earnestly believed in Hitler and national socialism, and they said intermittently that they would change over time, and then went back to goose stepping around and doing Roman salutes and suchlike in their Hitlerjugend uniform (and I suppose you probably do have one or several such friends), how exactly would you handle it (supposing one disagrees with national socialism)? [3/10/23, 10:01:11 pm] Oli: I just don't know what to do or say. [3/10/23, 10:01:24 pm] Oli: I don't know what to believe either in terms of the correspondence here. [3/10/23, 10:01:48 pm] Oli: I am not pretending to be angry at the world to elicit sympathy from you for Rupert or whomever. I just felt it and thought you were wanting to talk. [3/10/23, 10:02:14 pm] Oli: The messages I've sent, which you've shown me, about him in the past are bad but that is what I felt. [3/10/23, 10:02:42 pm] Oli: I obviously don't feel that way about him now but that's easy to say. [3/10/23, 10:03:23 pm] Oli: I would be quite confused as well, unless it were in the 40s. [3/10/23, 10:03:56 pm] Oli: It was somehow easier to go with the flow and people didn't want to risk being different. [3/10/23, 10:04:33 pm] Oli: This confuses me because it's either this or the aggressive accusing me of being essentially severely psychologically disabled. [3/10/23, 10:05:18 pm] Sam: Sorry, that was a shitty thing to say. I didn’t know if it was true and I shouldn’t have said it unless I did. I’m torn. [3/10/23, 10:07:40 pm] Sam: But this is really what I’m asking. Given you first said this a couple of months ago, how long am I meant to wait? How long would you wait? And to ridicule the idea (morality) that you’re supposedly en route to believing? I’m really sorry and it hurts me to lose a friend whom I care about, but it also hurts me to set aside compassion because it’s a point of disagreement. [3/10/23, 10:08:11 pm] Oli: What do you want me to do? [3/10/23, 10:08:15 pm] Sam: I hate all of this and it deeply distresses me. I feel miserable. [3/10/23, 10:08:56 pm] Sam: Well, I mean, what you say, right? This is what I mean. I don’t know if you even sincerely mean for me to believe that you’re going to change, or if it’s just, like, a polite fiction, a code word that I’m meant to understand. [3/10/23, 10:09:52 pm] Oli: No. I mean what do you want me to do regarding morality? [3/10/23, 10:09:55 pm] Oli: Actually what? [3/10/23, 10:10:00 pm] Sam: “And to ridicule…” - no idea where I was going with this grammatically but hopefully you get my actual point [3/10/23, 10:10:14 pm] Oli: And it's not just morality that I am en route to believing. In fact I don't mean that at all when I say let me sort myself out. I mean to try and become a vaguely aware normal person agsain. [3/10/23, 10:10:21 pm] Oli: I don't think I have a moral lacuna, far from it. [3/10/23, 10:10:32 pm] Oli: Just the way you've been conversing has been deeply aggressive and offensive. [3/10/23, 10:10:40 pm] Oli: And it's made me think about things in ways which I otherwise would not have. [3/10/23, 10:11:12 pm] Sam: What do you mean by this? What does this entail? [3/10/23, 10:12:00 pm] Oli: That we have, or are having, TWO separate conversations. [3/10/23, 10:12:42 pm] Sam: I mean the process of becoming a normal person - normal how, and becoming how? [3/10/23, 10:13:34 pm] Oli: I am trying to tell you where I am lacking as a person in some respects or where I have been made vulnerable and that I realise I am behaving oddly or in an isolated way but that I know I must somehow take control of myself. You talk to me about these morals you have. I don't disagree with them all. I don't even know why it comes across like that. I just can't work it out. Then we get onto that. And it comes back onto the first point because I try and say well yes OK fine but I just want to be in a good position mentally myself before I start trying to help the bloody world. That man's circle. My self is not even sorted. [3/10/23, 10:13:46 pm] Sam: Because I don’t really see a way to exclude the possibility that you have utterly no intention of changing anything, and that this is just a get-out card to use when you’re too ashamed to bite the bullet but still want to be friends or whatever. [3/10/23, 10:13:58 pm] Oli: And then I'm making up mental illnesses to avoid talking about morality. [3/10/23, 10:14:01 pm] Oli: It's a sideshow isn't it. [3/10/23, 10:14:16 pm] Oli: But I don't want to be friends with someone who is going to treat me like that. [3/10/23, 10:14:28 pm] Oli: No get-out card being used at all for that. [3/10/23, 10:14:34 pm] Oli: I am just trying to explain MYSELF. [3/10/23, 10:14:38 pm] Sam: If you can tell me how I can reasonably trust that this is not the case, then I’d be happy to. [3/10/23, 10:14:52 pm] Oli: I don't know what to say? [3/10/23, 10:15:05 pm] Oli: You seem to have exhausted every possibility of that. [3/10/23, 10:16:06 pm] Sam: I think this would be in order, but what is this remedy that you’re proposing? Meditation? Psychiatric treatment? Something for drugs? Or therapy? I have no idea really what you mean. [3/10/23, 10:18:33 pm] Sam: I propose we try to patch it up by midnight, and at the stroke of midnight if not patched up I’ll block you, or archive you or whatever works, or of course you can block me if that’s a better technical solution for whatever reason. At some point we have to draw a line - for me for both logistical and emotional reasons - and that seems as good a line as any. [3/10/23, 10:18:58 pm] Sam: ‘Try’ doesn’t have to mean intense conversation obviously [3/10/23, 10:19:08 pm] Oli: Yes I don't even know the remedy. I am trying to work it out. [3/10/23, 10:19:23 pm] Oli: It's not that severe but it's enough to make me mad in my self. [3/10/23, 10:19:51 pm] Sam: But I feel a bit stuck here, because I don’t consider your beliefs ok, and at points neither do you, and then I feel like the discussion drifts back to “actually this is fine and how dare you say I shouldn’t think it”. [3/10/23, 10:20:20 pm] Sam: And you can think them if you want, but equally it’s my prerogative to decide whom to be friends with, and I feel like I’m being strung along. [3/10/23, 10:20:58 pm] Sam: If you truly don’t see a problem with this attitude, then it would feel much more honest if you just said that, and ruat caelum, let the chips fall where they may, etc. [3/10/23, 10:21:07 pm] Oli: When you get more annoyingly aggressive and start criticising me I just think what's the point of even trying (not for you, but for me to express my mind and what I think in spite of the hardness of the world - or rather trying to have a conversation) and give up. [3/10/23, 10:21:21 pm] Oli: I feel like I've been strung along for the past week too. [3/10/23, 10:21:28 pm] Sam: How? [3/10/23, 10:21:34 pm] Oli: lol [3/10/23, 10:21:45 pm] Sam: I have actually explicitly warned you of this several times [3/10/23, 10:22:02 pm] Sam: I don’t like this habit of flinging words around without really meaning them [3/10/23, 10:22:20 pm] Oli: I have never tried to string you along to be your friend. For what? Lol [3/10/23, 10:22:26 pm] Sam: I have said, several times, that I will not change my view and that you should be aware of that, that I will not just forget it and move on [3/10/23, 10:22:37 pm] Oli: I try to have conversations and you get irritated and start being exceedingly rude. [3/10/23, 10:22:41 pm] Sam: Well, you answered your own question. To be my friend. [3/10/23, 10:22:42 pm] Oli: So I just give up. [3/10/23, 10:22:49 pm] Oli: Why to be your friend? [3/10/23, 10:22:51 pm] Oli: I have many friends. [3/10/23, 10:23:05 pm] Oli: I wanted to talk to you about things. You have an interesting insight. That is why. [3/10/23, 10:23:06 pm] Sam: And I value your friendship and I want to be your friend, and I’m not saying this in a ‘haha you are pathetic’ way, but yes, to be my friend, that seems to be the reason. [3/10/23, 10:23:12 pm] Oli: But I'm not desperate to if you are going to keep insulting me. [3/10/23, 10:23:16 pm] Oli: And making my question my own point. [3/10/23, 10:23:26 pm] Oli: You are actually blind to the level of rudeness you've promulgated. [3/10/23, 10:23:31 pm] Sam: Thank you 🙏🏻 [3/10/23, 10:24:58 pm] Sam: Anyway, yes, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting to be my friend. You do have far more friends than I have, of course. I am glad of your friendship. [3/10/23, 10:27:03 pm] Sam: But you asked me the reason, and that seems to me to be the reason. The alternative is that you want to fuck me, or date me, or steal my watch or something, lol. [3/10/23, 10:27:17 pm] Sam: (That was a crap third reason. I was trying to think of a good one. I gave up.) [3/10/23, 10:27:28 pm] Oli: Don't like watches! [3/10/23, 10:27:44 pm] Oli: I like talking to you. [3/10/23, 10:27:56 pm] Oli: But I am not going to use a get-out to talk to you if that's how you behave. [3/10/23, 10:27:59 pm] Oli: So I'm not using it as a get-out. [3/10/23, 10:28:07 pm] Oli: I am not sure where this strange belief originated. [3/10/23, 10:32:19 pm] Sam: The question for me is whether you are sincere about your stated wish to not be selfish. If you are, then that’s fine, I can try to help you, or give you time or whatever, and put up with it in the interim. If you aren’t, I again would appreciate it if you just told me, instead of saying “I need time”, “I can’t do it overnight”, etc. [3/10/23, 10:33:51 pm] Sam: The behaviour is a facet of that. I’m afraid I can’t treat you respectfully if you think and live in a way that I don’t and can’t respect. This is why I warned you that I meant this and I wouldn’t just forget about it and get distracted and move on. (It’s also why I warned Freddie and …. argh) [3/10/23, 10:34:28 pm] Sam: Eg here [3/10/23, 10:34:44 pm] Oli: No-one wakes up and wants to be selfish. WELL, let's say selfish in the moral connotation we use it in. [3/10/23, 10:34:48 pm] Oli: No-one wakes up and wants to be a shit. [3/10/23, 10:34:48 pm] Sam: Or here [3/10/23, 10:34:53 pm] Oli: Some of us like to be self-indulged true. [3/10/23, 10:35:01 pm] Sam: Or here [3/10/23, 10:35:44 pm] Sam: Well, I don’t know if you’d just woken up, but you did expressly defend selfishness qua selfishness to me on Friday. [3/10/23, 10:35:52 pm] Oli: Yes. [3/10/23, 10:35:58 pm] Oli: As I then said at the end of that chat... [3/10/23, 10:36:17 pm] Oli: Oh I thought you were telling me I had to wake up and literally give everything away to someone and live on a cardboard box to be a good person. [3/10/23, 10:36:24 pm] Oli: Of course I am going to stay in myself and be 'selfish'. [3/10/23, 10:36:59 pm] Oli: When I am confronted with cases of people who feel bad or are in dire straits etc. I do not feel good. [3/10/23, 10:37:04 pm] Oli: I try and forget about it for my own good. But it's not nice. [3/10/23, 10:38:24 pm] Oli: You have created this totally wrong image of me. [3/10/23, 10:38:37 pm] Oli: Do you subject Damien to the same? [3/10/23, 10:38:43 pm] Oli: He is far less morally aware than I am, I'd suggest. [3/10/23, 10:39:07 pm] Oli: But even then, I will say, I don't know him that well (he is hard to contact so I then say what the fuck who cares), but that's how it looks to me. [3/10/23, 10:41:59 pm] Oli: That says something about you I suppose. There are respectful ways to disagree with someone you think is so vehemently wrong. [3/10/23, 10:42:02 pm] Sam: God. I’m looking for the best message to quote, and I … god this chat. [3/10/23, 10:42:11 pm] Oli: I don’t think it’s in my interest to let you continually paint me as a monster. [3/10/23, 10:42:16 pm] Sam: I do subject Damien to the same, yes. [3/10/23, 10:42:23 pm] Oli: I don’t even know why I allowed it in the first place. [3/10/23, 10:42:27 pm] Oli: Bet that goes down well. [3/10/23, 10:42:58 pm] Oli: 🤣 [3/10/23, 10:43:03 pm] Oli: You need to change the paradigm [3/10/23, 10:43:08 pm] Oli: You are stuck on this paradigm [3/10/23, 10:43:15 pm] Oli: I don’t know what’s going on with you. [3/10/23, 10:43:33 pm] Sam: And this. And … I don’t even fucking know. It makes me depressed to read this. [3/10/23, 10:43:45 pm] Oli: Yes. [3/10/23, 10:44:09 pm] Oli: It is conflicting. I think when you said that I was subject to a lot of your usual abuse so it was just easier to say that. [3/10/23, 10:44:12 pm] Sam: I dont know what on earth you think. I now assume you don’t mean this, and I am going to block you once I’ve made myself a drink, not out of spite but because I cannot emotionally deal with this any more. [3/10/23, 10:44:17 pm] Oli: It's actually easier to just agree with you than to try and make excuses to get it out. [3/10/23, 10:44:21 pm] Oli: I don't know why you haven't registered that. [3/10/23, 10:44:28 pm] Oli: I.e. to agree I'm a monster. [3/10/23, 10:44:50 pm] Oli: Haha. [3/10/23, 10:44:52 pm] Sam: Ok. From the horse’s mouth. Cool. I will take a moment to say goodbye etc. Let me grab a rocky road first [3/10/23, 10:44:55 pm] Oli: If you want! [3/10/23, 10:45:00 pm] Oli: Lol this is mental Sam. ‎[3/10/23, 10:45:24 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [3/10/23, 10:46:29 pm] Oli: Perhaps you need more help than I do. [3/10/23, 10:46:39 pm] Oli: You can't handle the impact your behaviour has on others? I don't know? [3/10/23, 10:46:47 pm] Oli: I was trying to explain things to you and you can't somehow listen to it. [3/10/23, 10:46:55 pm] Oli: It should've happened halfway into the week I suppose. [3/10/23, 10:47:19 pm] Oli: Instead I have been constantly gaslit and made to feel like some sort of alien incapable of talking to people. [3/10/23, 10:47:38 pm] Oli: Because I want to find out what's wrong in my head and sort myself out before giving 50p away or whatever (to callously trivialise it)? [3/10/23, 10:47:58 pm] Oli: And now you are making this upsetting for yourself! [3/10/23, 10:48:02 pm] Oli: I can't parse this, as you say many times a day. [3/10/23, 10:49:43 pm] Oli: Perhaps you should take a look at your communicative style and realise you've been talking to someone on multiple substances, as you have been, and when you say things like this, often variations of one thing, they will think they're thinking and give answers which may sound similar but don't get to the root of the issue. [3/10/23, 10:50:08 pm] Oli: I think it would be a valuable lesson to learn. And indeed even without substances, as today is for me, apart from alcohol, it is easy to be bamboozled into not knowing what to say. [3/10/23, 10:50:24 pm] Oli: It is highly odd!! [3/10/23, 10:51:26 pm] Oli: To do what you do and go over old messages. You're human but no-one else is is one of the take homes to get from your chat. [3/10/23, 10:51:56 pm] Sam: Before I put my jumper on and grab a rocky road: I am just miserable about all this. I have been honest throughout this conversation, both ‘reactively’ and also pointedly warning you, and you have lied to me. That’s shitty. It’s poor form. It makes me feel rubbish. All of this makes me feel rubbish. Say what you want about madness etc, I don’t care and I know you don’t believe it for a moment, but this just makes me sad and confused and slightly gloomier about the world than I was before. [3/10/23, 10:51:59 pm] Oli: And you're not sorry. So you shouldn't try and convince me, or more to the point, yourself, that you are. Because you're going on it again! [3/10/23, 10:52:01 pm] Oli: Madness!!! [3/10/23, 10:52:10 pm] Oli: I have not lied to you. [3/10/23, 10:52:13 pm] Oli: You can believe what you want. [3/10/23, 10:52:18 pm] Oli: You genuinely believe that. It's sad. [3/10/23, 10:52:44 pm] Oli: I think this is proof you don't really know how to talk to people? [3/10/23, 10:53:01 pm] Oli: Grab a rocky road. Good grief. I don't even know what's going on. [3/10/23, 10:53:06 pm] Oli: Maybe you have lied to me on the contrary. [3/10/23, 10:53:34 pm] Oli: I have lied to you you say about morals. No I haven't. You hold a fucking gun to my head and make me say loads of rubbish without letting me think things out. [3/10/23, 10:53:54 pm] Oli: On the rare occasion I've said thoughtful things to you here you even then go mad or don't believe them. [3/10/23, 10:53:59 pm] Oli: This is called having a conversation on drugs. [3/10/23, 10:54:05 pm] Oli: Perhaps a chat between two drug addicts. [3/10/23, 10:54:08 pm] Oli: Thoroughly nice isn't it. [3/10/23, 10:54:25 pm] Oli: Everything I say has some defence or place in my mind. [3/10/23, 10:54:39 pm] Oli: I am sorry the conversation has been like a spaghetti junction but if you feel like that ask yourself what the other person feels. [3/10/23, 10:55:20 pm] Oli: And this has been entirely conducted on an instant messaging system. [3/10/23, 10:55:27 pm] Oli: That's highly normal isn't it. [3/10/23, 10:55:35 pm] Oli: Still, at least we've sped up our midnight ultimatum to work ourselves out. [3/10/23, 10:55:55 pm] Oli: Because I am just aghast myself at the level of abuse and self-questioning to which I've been subjected. [3/10/23, 10:56:10 pm] Oli: And you make out that you care about people, which is one of the reasons I started sharing all of the crap about my life to you. [3/10/23, 10:56:53 pm] Oli: I'm sure you'll enjoy using it in case studies. I hope you have the respect to not but it makes little difference to me if you do, given that I often tell people these things about me when pissed at parties in a joking manner (some are left speechless, others join in and take it as it should be taken). [3/10/23, 10:57:08 pm] Oli: How we cope with life. [3/10/23, 10:57:55 pm] Oli: We are all human. And life is bad in varying ways. You would do well to think that more about people who differ to the conventional ones you come across in your good citizen deeds or feelings. [3/10/23, 10:59:39 pm] Oli: Instead of subject someone to almost a week's worth of abuse, lead them down rabbit holes and focus microscopically some of their utterances which actually betray a thinking mind or a not fully thought out premise. In so doing, you make this person's thoughts, one who you have allowed to appear vulnerable to you, appear highly jumbled and are able to accuse them of being a psychopathic monster. [3/10/23, 10:59:41 pm] Oli: Good on you! [3/10/23, 10:59:59 pm] Oli: I to be quite honest couldn't believe it when earlier today you said you considered me a friend? But fucking hell! What is even going on? [3/10/23, 11:00:29 pm] Oli: You should think about the effects your behaviour has on others. I'm sure you are also in an odd state of mind but please do this. And try not to be too self-reverential in that thought. [3/10/23, 11:00:42 pm] Oli: I am sure I will add this to my library of self-doubt and fuck what do I do. [3/10/23, 11:17:03 pm] Sam: I’m en route to get a rocky road. I’m upset to lose my friend, who can try as he might to pretend I’m mad or drug-crazed or whatever else, but who is hurt by my opinion of him and yet afraid and too bloodyminded to confront it. [3/10/23, 11:17:37 pm] Oli: Too afraid and too bloodyminded to confront it? ‎[3/10/23, 11:21:38 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 11:21:53 pm] Sam: This is just fucking grim [3/10/23, 11:21:59 pm] Oli: Ah yes chocolates. [3/10/23, 11:22:00 pm] Sam: Christ [3/10/23, 11:24:51 pm] Oli: To me it looks like you made it grim needlessly! [3/10/23, 11:28:20 pm] Sam: No, I mean, you can say whatever you’ve said to pretend I’m non compos mentis, but you’re saying it because you trust me and you care about what I think of you. [3/10/23, 11:29:43 pm] Sam: And what I think is … christ, what do _you_ think of all this? You’re telling me this was all, what, a very fluent lie? Maybe so. I find this all depressing as hell. [3/10/23, 11:33:54 pm] Oli: A very fluent lie? [3/10/23, 11:34:03 pm] Oli: Sorry, I am entitled to say you're not compos mentis if you come out with stuff like this. [3/10/23, 11:34:42 pm] Sam: That quoted message. You’re telling me, presumably, that it was a lie. [3/10/23, 11:35:03 pm] Oli: No? [3/10/23, 11:35:30 pm] Sam: Yes [3/10/23, 11:35:37 pm] Sam: Literally that message [3/10/23, 11:38:38 pm] Sam: I don’t even know what’s true any more, I have no clue, and I have no clue whether you have one either. I really hope things go well for you. I haven’t shared this conversation with anyone (except a couple of unimportant and censored screenshots to Ryan in the conversation you saw) and I won’t do so in future. I fucking hate all of this and I hope you live the sort of life that the person you become deserves. [3/10/23, 11:39:00 pm] Oli: Does not mean lie. [3/10/23, 11:39:14 pm] Sam: Please just stop now [3/10/23, 11:39:32 pm] Sam: I like you, ok [3/10/23, 11:39:38 pm] Sam: I care about you [3/10/23, 11:39:41 pm] Sam: There is good in you [3/10/23, 11:39:43 pm] Oli: I have lied to you you say about morals. No I haven't. You hold a fucking gun to my head and make me say loads of rubbish without letting me think things out. [3/10/23, 11:39:52 pm] Oli: It is half thought out. [3/10/23, 11:40:02 pm] Sam: But this is … I don’t even know what this is any more [3/10/23, 11:40:16 pm] Oli: No you wouldn't. [3/10/23, 11:40:17 pm] Oli: You created it. [3/10/23, 11:40:39 pm] Oli: And so that was that. [3/10/23, 11:40:41 pm] Oli: Into the night they went. [3/10/23, 11:40:50 pm] Oli: Another case of misunderstanding. [3/10/23, 11:40:52 pm] Oli: Humans! [3/10/23, 11:40:55 pm] Oli: And they went on! [3/10/23, 11:41:15 pm] Sam: I am not saying this in a Damien-like way, but it strikes me that … look, I don’t know if you need to find a therapist, I think arguably you’re fine in that sense, but you need to get out of this morass of self-imprisoning thoughts that you’ve created to defend your hollow and unhappy life. [3/10/23, 11:42:12 pm] Sam: I hope you realise this either soon or never [3/10/23, 11:42:40 pm] Oli: Quite right. [3/10/23, 11:42:45 pm] Oli: Morass is the right word. [3/10/23, 11:42:48 pm] Sam: I care about you, whatever you’re telling yourself right now [3/10/23, 11:42:53 pm] Sam: I care about you a lot [3/10/23, 11:43:06 pm] Sam: And it doesn’t make me feel good, fucking any of this [3/10/23, 11:43:31 pm] Sam: Hell, I’ll send you whatever the fuck you want to have against me if I can just talk to you [3/10/23, 11:44:26 pm] Oli: Fucking hell ‎[3/10/23, 11:44:41 pm] Sam: WhatsApp Chat - Cayden S.zip ‎document omitted [3/10/23, 11:44:37 pm] Oli: We CAN. [3/10/23, 11:44:41 pm] Oli: I don't know why it's so confusing. ‎[3/10/23, 11:45:15 pm] Sam: WhatsApp Chat - Brendan Lotophagos.zip ‎document omitted [3/10/23, 11:46:10 pm] Sam: I trust you and now you hopefully can or don’t need to trust me [3/10/23, 11:46:37 pm] Oli: My god. [3/10/23, 11:46:38 pm] Oli: Well. [3/10/23, 11:46:41 pm] Oli: I must read over these I suppose. [3/10/23, 11:46:57 pm] Sam: 🙏🏻 🤍 [3/10/23, 11:50:54 pm] Sam: I don’t care what you want. I’m very happy to give you a gun to hold to my head if it makes you trust me. (I probably already have; I can give you more.) I won’t repeat what you say to me. But please, just tell me the case. [3/10/23, 11:51:25 pm] Sam: The whole case [3/10/23, 11:51:30 pm] Sam: Nothing but the case [3/10/23, 11:52:05 pm] Oli: I am on the Cayden thing now. [3/10/23, 11:55:23 pm] Sam: Enjoy. Very probably not good in places. (He sent one fairly savage text about my then-obsession with Freddie, I recall.) Probably the very start of the chat is about the worst that it gets, though there’s a great era when he starts going out with the abusive boyfriend. It doesn’t reflect terribly well on my mastery of my psychosexual drives.. [3/10/23, 11:56:17 pm] Sam: But I believe in absolute, clear-as-glass transparency. If there’s something shameful, I want to be ashamed. This is good. It’s purgative. ‎[3/10/23, 11:58:15 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[3/10/23, 11:58:29 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[3/10/23, 11:58:41 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[3/10/23, 11:59:00 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [3/10/23, 11:59:27 pm] Sam: 😂 [4/10/23, 12:00:17 am] Sam: I am totally open! Well, this is probably … for legal reasons I would not be open with everyone about this. There are limits imposed by my desire to choose what I have for lunch. ‎[4/10/23, 12:01:17 am] Sam: WhatsApp Chat - Gray McTwink.zip ‎document omitted [4/10/23, 12:04:16 am] Oli: Well... [4/10/23, 12:04:23 am] Oli: Good start isn't it. On the first one. [4/10/23, 12:04:24 am] Sam: Please understand that I trust you and I am not going to betray you [4/10/23, 12:04:27 am] Oli: Hello hello hello. [4/10/23, 12:04:30 am] Oli: 'Ello ello ello! [4/10/23, 12:04:34 am] Sam: Good start indeed! ‎[4/10/23, 12:04:40 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[4/10/23, 12:04:47 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [4/10/23, 12:06:40 am] Sam: I don’t care what it takes to persuade you I’m not going to turn against you and damien you [4/10/23, 12:06:50 am] Sam: Because I know I’m not going to [4/10/23, 12:07:00 am] Sam: Because it’s not in my nature [4/10/23, 12:08:21 am] Sam: Except for one person who screwed me around so badly for a Grindr date that I made a website (johnsmith.com) with our chat logs. And even then I didn’t post Grindr messages, only WhatsApp, in case he wasn’t out. ‎ [4/10/23, 12:08:43 am] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [4/10/23, 12:09:24 am] Oli: Oh god haha. ‎ [4/10/23, 12:09:28 am] Oli: God* [4/10/23, 12:09:38 am] Sam: It was quite incredible [4/10/23, 12:09:52 am] Sam: His excuse for being four hours late was that … he was trans [4/10/23, 12:09:58 am] Sam: Actually you can have that fucking chat too, lol ‎[4/10/23, 12:10:13 am] Sam: WhatsApp Chat - Top.zip ‎document omitted ‎[4/10/23, 12:11:37 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 12:24:45 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 12:26:04 am] Sam: Anyway, will you now please trust me? Please. You are my friend, I care about you, I couldn’t humanly have invested so much time in talking to you if you weren’t and if I didn’t. [4/10/23, 12:27:19 am] Sam: I know you don’t want to confront even that I am sincere in saying what I’ve said, but I am. I’m sure some of it is wrong, of course. But I am saying it from love. [4/10/23, 12:27:56 am] Sam: As St Aug said: dilige + quod vis fac [4/10/23, 12:28:09 am] Sam: That’s pretty much my rule [4/10/23, 12:28:52 am] Sam: 🩵 [4/10/23, 12:36:25 am] Sam: Well, I’m here when you are. You have potential. I find it hard to imagine you’re satisfied by this tripe and these abject and clinically worthless mediocrities. [4/10/23, 12:36:51 am] Oli: I am just having a look at one of the messages. Getting acquainted! ‎[4/10/23, 12:39:03 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 12:39:15 am] Sam: One single message? Haha [4/10/23, 12:40:36 am] Oli: I mean files. Which happens to be one of the 'chats'. [4/10/23, 12:40:38 am] Oli: I meant! [4/10/23, 12:43:31 am] Sam: Ah, I see! Fair enough. Take all the time you need. Hell, you can have all my chats if you like. (Except Louis. Everyone needs something sacred, and to me that’s Louis, and I would throw this chat and everything and you in the fire rather than that.) [4/10/23, 12:45:37 am] Sam: That being said, I do hope you’ll come over and do some good. I think you have it in you. Whether it will stay there I dunno. [4/10/23, 12:47:02 am] Sam: But yeah, sorry, I believe to my bone marrow the old journalists’ mission statement: to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Fuck this Henley shit. [4/10/23, 12:49:01 am] Sam: It’s a moral sickness, and I take very seriously my responsibility not to become infected [4/10/23, 12:52:23 am] Sam: And I know you’re a better person than you are [4/10/23, 12:54:09 am] Oli: Not nice! [4/10/23, 12:54:13 am] Oli: I agree witht hat there. [4/10/23, 12:54:25 am] Oli: Well, I skimmed the chats. [4/10/23, 12:54:31 am] Oli: Good anecdotes for a book in some! [4/10/23, 12:54:53 am] Oli: I suppose they are a good supplement for what I meant by something deeply missing in your biography. [4/10/23, 12:55:05 am] Oli: This does tend to, to my mind, explain a lot of some of my thoughts or queries. [4/10/23, 12:55:23 am] Sam: I’m glad! [4/10/23, 12:55:23 am] Oli: It doesn't quite surprise me. [4/10/23, 12:55:25 am] Oli: But still... [4/10/23, 12:55:28 am] Oli: Interesting! [4/10/23, 12:55:31 am] Sam: How do you mean? [4/10/23, 12:55:40 am] Oli: Well! [4/10/23, 12:55:46 am] Oli: I think it would come as a surprise to a lot of people! Or most! [4/10/23, 12:55:59 am] Sam: Some particular aspect? ‎ [4/10/23, 12:56:04 am] Oli: It wasn't something I'd expected but somehow I can make sense of it regarding you. [4/10/23, 12:56:05 am] Oli: I am not sure. [4/10/23, 12:56:09 am] Oli: Yes. [4/10/23, 12:56:25 am] Sam: Haha, which? [4/10/23, 12:56:43 am] Oli: Your sexual element! [4/10/23, 12:57:07 am] Sam: Ohhh, I see, sorry, I’d got distracted. I guess it was all sexual chats I gave you (except Brendan). [4/10/23, 12:57:33 am] Sam: Well that’s about the worst you can get from me, haha. Sexual chats and one angry chat. [4/10/23, 12:57:35 am] Oli: Well, some of the sexual chats had a particular sexual element about them. [4/10/23, 12:57:51 am] Sam: What, paedophilia? 😅 [4/10/23, 12:57:58 am] Oli: Yes! [4/10/23, 12:58:06 am] Oli: I suppose this makes me guilty somewhat if the police ever find your phone. [4/10/23, 12:58:06 am] Sam: Yes that’s something of a leitmotif [4/10/23, 12:58:08 am] Oli: My knowledge of it. [4/10/23, 12:58:09 am] Oli: I do wonder. [4/10/23, 12:58:26 am] Oli: Well, I don't know the others! [4/10/23, 12:58:27 am] Oli: Haha [4/10/23, 12:58:30 am] Oli: What a mad world we live in. [4/10/23, 12:58:43 am] Sam: Uh, I have no idea. Legally I’m guilty of a crime. Morally I defend it. With one reservation which is [one sec] ‎[4/10/23, 12:59:06 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 1:00:36 am] Oli: This is interesting. [4/10/23, 1:00:38 am] Oli: Makes sense. [4/10/23, 1:00:40 am] Oli: God. [4/10/23, 1:00:50 am] Sam: #1 in that case had a growth disorder and looked about 14 [4/10/23, 1:00:59 am] Sam: Beautiful kid [4/10/23, 1:01:01 am] Sam: Lemme find ‎[4/10/23, 1:01:39 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 1:01:39 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 1:01:39 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 1:01:54 am] Sam: Also was very into me, which I like [4/10/23, 1:02:14 am] Sam: No I mean I am 100% a paedophile, which I tell people but they somehow refuse to believe me [4/10/23, 1:02:45 am] Sam: I remind myself of Alan Clark complaining that no one believed he was a Nazi, and always ‘take refuge in the convention of Alan-doesn’t-really-mean-it’ [4/10/23, 1:03:28 am] Sam: But I also - while recognising that my tastes are 100% illegal - would never ever want to abuse or harm or traumatise anyone or cause any suffering [4/10/23, 1:04:11 am] Sam: Because, let’s be honest, the idea that even a significant number of 15 year olds are incapable of understanding and wishing to have sex is a ludicrous nonsense which no honest person (all 7 of them) can believe [4/10/23, 1:05:14 am] Sam: And as you can see from Mr 15 Year Old there, who is as sane and cogent as any 18 year old and more than most of Damien’s friends [4/10/23, 1:05:32 am] Sam: And could perform brain surgery on many of your friends [4/10/23, 1:05:32 am] Oli: Well yes much more than Damien's friends haha [4/10/23, 1:05:35 am] Sam: And arguably should [4/10/23, 1:05:49 am] Sam: It’s just an absurdity [4/10/23, 1:05:54 am] Sam: No one can actually believe it [4/10/23, 1:06:18 am] Sam: It’s a consciously dishonest fiction that really just represents the thought that “eugh that’s a bit too young” [4/10/23, 1:06:53 am] Sam: And we rely on prosecutorial discretion and public interest tests and press reportage on outrageous cases - in other words arbitrary law - to make sure that only the dodgy-looking ones go to jail [4/10/23, 1:07:58 am] Sam: I remember my old flatmate Creepy Chris, when preparing for his trial, decided not to wear glasses because (although the crime in question was committed when he was 14 and the other guy 13) still “for sex crimes it doesn’t look good to be a fat 25 year old in glasses” [4/10/23, 1:08:37 am] Sam: Eg I’d never go to jail in a million fuckin years ‎[4/10/23, 1:08:51 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 1:09:30 am] Oli: Well... [4/10/23, 1:09:36 am] Oli: They do seem to send all sorts there! [4/10/23, 1:10:18 am] Oli: I wonder what we'd talk about if I visited you there! [4/10/23, 1:10:28 am] Oli: Maybe a change of context. [4/10/23, 1:10:39 am] Sam: Probably the same thing I talked about with Chris [4/10/23, 1:10:45 am] Sam: Namely “let’s guess the crimes!” [4/10/23, 1:10:58 am] Sam: Any old guy in that visiting room … you know exactly what he’s in for [4/10/23, 1:11:14 am] Oli: Being tonsured? [4/10/23, 1:11:20 am] Sam: Did I mention the time I smuggled 5g of finest Afghan heroin into that prison? [4/10/23, 1:11:23 am] Sam: (Stafford Prison) [4/10/23, 1:11:28 am] Oli: I don't think so! [4/10/23, 1:11:33 am] Sam: That was fun [4/10/23, 1:11:45 am] Sam: Accidentally smuggled, in my defence [4/10/23, 1:11:58 am] Sam: Accidentally smuggled into and back out of [4/10/23, 1:12:12 am] Sam: I often wonder if I’d have had the same sangfroid if I’d realised while I was in there [4/10/23, 1:12:23 am] Sam: But probably I would have, since I’ve smuggled similar amounts through airports [4/10/23, 1:13:01 am] Oli: I know people who have done that with coke! [4/10/23, 1:13:06 am] Sam: My grandma was asked by a cousin to smuggle it when my mum was young, because she was a trustworthy-looking well-off mother [4/10/23, 1:13:14 am] Oli: Only on flights to Ireland but probably it works. A bag of it in the sock. [4/10/23, 1:13:18 am] Oli: I am not sure how it avoids detection. [4/10/23, 1:13:32 am] Sam: I remember when telling this story she said “oh, [whatshisname] was always coming up with funny little schemes to make money!” [4/10/23, 1:13:36 am] Sam: Or words to that effect [4/10/23, 1:13:56 am] Sam: Funny schemes like smuggling large quantities of heroin into Europe [4/10/23, 1:14:10 am] Sam: I doubt it does in any large amounts [4/10/23, 1:14:37 am] Sam: I know I’ve said this before but my theory is it’s all a red herring or else people doing it for personal use or in small crackpot money-making schemes [4/10/23, 1:15:03 am] Sam: It’s a ridiculously, pointlessly expensive and dangerous way to smuggle anything - it’s literally about the worst way you could possibly do it ‎[4/10/23, 1:15:27 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 1:15:28 am] Sam: If nothing else, you’d put it in your baggage, but realistically you’d stick it in a car and drive the same route that central Asian refugees take across the Balkans [4/10/23, 1:15:50 am] Sam: Or else a container ship or cargo plane [4/10/23, 1:16:25 am] Sam: I am utterly sure that vast quantities get into this country and every country in container ships, which would be the best way hands down [4/10/23, 1:16:44 am] Sam: Did Damien ever tell you about our Eurostar incident? [4/10/23, 1:16:50 am] Oli: Yes. [4/10/23, 1:16:56 am] Oli: I am not sure how many times that has been told now. [4/10/23, 1:16:57 am] Sam: Oh good [4/10/23, 1:17:02 am] Oli: Maybe you told me too but think he is fond of that story. [4/10/23, 1:17:04 am] Sam: Actually yeah he does like that story [4/10/23, 1:17:09 am] Sam: Haha [4/10/23, 1:17:12 am] Sam: It proves my point I think [4/10/23, 1:17:23 am] Sam: Ah shit I didn’t send a thing I meant to send re ‘too young to consent’ - one sec ‎[4/10/23, 1:20:32 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 1:29:09 am] Sam: Oh I give up on this bastard tweet [4/10/23, 1:29:14 am] Sam: I fucking hate that site [4/10/23, 1:29:19 am] Sam: Christ [4/10/23, 1:29:28 am] Sam: Aggressively useless [4/10/23, 1:29:42 am] Oli: It seems to be full of people with silly opinions! [4/10/23, 1:30:00 am] Sam: I know, I can’t stand them [4/10/23, 1:30:10 am] Sam: Let me find the choice tweets I sent Freddie in our chat, lol ‎[4/10/23, 1:31:13 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 1:32:30 am] Oli: I can just see it! yes! [4/10/23, 1:32:31 am] Oli: Lol [4/10/23, 1:32:55 am] Oli: Your reply. Very kind! [4/10/23, 1:33:07 am] Oli: Environments like Twitter can do that to people. [4/10/23, 1:33:43 am] Sam: Wait let me find my worst [4/10/23, 1:34:32 am] Sam: This one is genuinely so offensive to any sense of morality that I feel somewhat contrite ‎[4/10/23, 1:36:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 1:36:25 am] Sam: Who was sending me a deranged stream of articles about trans people raping [4/10/23, 1:36:38 am] Sam: Feel a tiny bit bad about that [4/10/23, 1:37:55 am] Sam: This is one of my faults (and yours): I think I quite easily get tunnel vision when stuck in arguments, and lose sight of common decency and the humanity of the person I’m disagreeing with [4/10/23, 1:38:11 am] Oli: Yes. I agree. [4/10/23, 1:38:33 am] Sam: And very often it takes their being magnanimous before I suddenly ask why I’m talking to the other person in this ridiculous condescending way [4/10/23, 1:38:48 am] Sam: No, I actually don’t think that of these discussions except at one or two points [4/10/23, 1:39:05 am] Sam: And I mean small sequences of messages, not entire discussions [4/10/23, 1:39:09 am] Oli: How do you think it's my fault then? [4/10/23, 1:39:14 am] Oli: From other discussions I've had with others? [4/10/23, 1:39:18 am] Oli: Sorry, not MY fault. One of mine. [4/10/23, 1:39:20 am] Oli: I agree with you. [4/10/23, 1:39:33 am] Sam: I do think I went too far in being honest about some things, but I don’t think I was really in the mode I’m talking about here [4/10/23, 1:39:52 am] Oli: Yes, Twitter is different I think. [4/10/23, 1:40:57 am] Sam: I think strangers are different. And these are mostly conversations where they have at least defensible views - we agree on the ends but not the means (as is so often the case). [4/10/23, 1:41:17 am] Oli: Or know it's one of mine I meant. [4/10/23, 1:42:28 am] Sam: Oh sorry, I see what you’re replying to now [4/10/23, 1:42:40 am] Sam: Well, Slape, for one, certainly [4/10/23, 1:42:53 am] Oli: You got really into that one too didn't you. [4/10/23, 1:42:54 am] Sam: Not sure whether to count today [4/10/23, 1:42:57 am] Oli: We both did for some reason. [4/10/23, 1:43:07 am] Oli: Not sure why we allowed it to take over our minds. [4/10/23, 1:43:11 am] Sam: Not as far and as unpleasantly as you, though you had some justification [4/10/23, 1:43:13 am] Sam: Well [4/10/23, 1:43:30 am] Oli: Yes, I don't really know what happened. [4/10/23, 1:43:36 am] Oli: Weren't you unpleasant too? [4/10/23, 1:43:40 am] Sam: I wrestled with that at the time and I don’t think it was really entirely justified, and I think it was _actio liberis in causa_ so to speak [4/10/23, 1:43:52 am] Oli: I remember you saying I was justified because of the levels of madness. [4/10/23, 1:43:58 am] Sam: I was _blunt_, I wasn’t gratuitously nasty [4/10/23, 1:44:06 am] Oli: I just thought about trying to call him out to his face and seeing how it worked. [4/10/23, 1:44:12 am] Sam: This is what I mean by actio liberis in causa [4/10/23, 1:44:14 am] Oli: I am not sure when but I realised it wouldn't do much difference. [4/10/23, 1:44:21 am] Sam: Sorry [4/10/23, 1:44:23 am] Sam: You’re being nice [4/10/23, 1:44:26 am] Sam: I hadn’t realised [4/10/23, 1:44:30 am] Sam: This is maybe an example now [4/10/23, 1:44:40 am] Oli: ? [4/10/23, 1:44:41 am] Oli: Oh! [4/10/23, 1:45:00 am] Sam: But yes I do think if you volunteer to get stuck into a conversation then it’s arguably not really fair to cite that as justification for your madness [4/10/23, 1:45:18 am] Oli: Time and time again I get lured into similar chats. [4/10/23, 1:45:22 am] Oli: I don't know what it is about me. [4/10/23, 1:45:34 am] Oli: I seem to be a samaritan for people to speak to quite often. [4/10/23, 1:45:39 am] Sam: Fixation on imposture? [4/10/23, 1:45:45 am] Sam: Oh sorry I thought you meant people like Slape [4/10/23, 1:45:51 am] Oli: Well how can it be lol if they just come to me? [4/10/23, 1:45:53 am] Sam: Maybe you just mean shoulders to cry on [4/10/23, 1:45:55 am] Oli: Even if it was they seem to come to me lol. [4/10/23, 1:45:59 am] Oli: Sometimes! [4/10/23, 1:46:09 am] Sam: I could make a trite reply but eh it wouldn’t actually be true [4/10/23, 1:46:11 am] Oli: Yes I do attract talky needy people and I go on with the chats. [4/10/23, 1:46:17 am] Oli: Sometimes it works for them. I think. [4/10/23, 1:46:31 am] Sam: In this case probably that needy people are inclined both to long text chats and also dissimulation [4/10/23, 1:46:32 am] Oli: Recently the Slape case has shown that it doesn't always and I've tried to reassess what I do when it happens. [4/10/23, 1:47:06 am] Sam: Yes, Slape is beyond help, and also ludicrously bad at it, which two things aren’t often comorbid [4/10/23, 1:47:25 am] Sam: Fuck knows what can be done with him [4/10/23, 1:47:38 am] Sam: I have said utterly everything I can to make it clear [4/10/23, 1:48:10 am] Sam: If you are a fraud, which you all are in one way or another and to some extent, Freddie included, then at least you have succeeded [4/10/23, 1:48:14 am] Sam: I don’t doubt that [4/10/23, 1:48:22 am] Sam: That’s the one thing in this chat that is not really disputed [4/10/23, 1:48:34 am] Sam: Slape is - with equal certainty - not a success [4/10/23, 1:48:47 am] Sam: He must have been doing this for I’m guessing probably over 5 years and maybe 10 [4/10/23, 1:48:56 am] Sam: He doesn’t appear to have a single other person who believes him [4/10/23, 1:48:57 am] Oli: Quite a long time I am sure. [4/10/23, 1:49:00 am] Sam: And maybe he has never done [4/10/23, 1:49:22 am] Sam: Roman sticks around because he is a sweet and good person like Xander [4/10/23, 1:49:36 am] Sam: But I don’t think even Roman actually meets him often [4/10/23, 1:49:54 am] Sam: He has hit rock bottom and found oil [4/10/23, 1:50:12 am] Oli: He can be the next person to be on the receiving end of his madness then! [4/10/23, 1:50:15 am] Oli: Maybe he has already been. [4/10/23, 1:50:20 am] Sam: Long long long ago [4/10/23, 1:50:23 am] Oli: It is desperate. [4/10/23, 1:50:29 am] Oli: Very sad indeed. [4/10/23, 1:50:32 am] Sam: I remember him introducing Slape to me that way in 2020 [4/10/23, 1:50:41 am] Oli: You've met Slape before?! [4/10/23, 1:50:42 am] Sam: Not introducing literally but he was asking if I wanted to meet him [4/10/23, 1:50:46 am] Sam: Like, explaining Slape [4/10/23, 1:50:54 am] Sam: Since they were planning a drink at that point [4/10/23, 1:51:19 am] Sam: And so I thought he was like many people I’ve met, at worst maybe 120 centiseatons, but I never expected anything like this [4/10/23, 1:51:30 am] Oli: Centiseaton! [4/10/23, 1:51:33 am] Sam: I must have told you the part about Slape lying to me literally before he came in the door? [4/10/23, 1:51:37 am] Oli: No? [4/10/23, 1:51:43 am] Oli: I forget. [4/10/23, 1:51:46 am] Oli: Slape has all rolled into one! ‎[4/10/23, 1:52:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 1:52:17 am] Sam: That he’d said to Damien (and thence to me) that he didn’t want to see Roman because of bad memories etc [4/10/23, 1:52:29 am] Sam: In fact it was because he’d sleazed on him not long before [4/10/23, 1:52:47 am] Sam: And Roman had very sweetly and kindly rebuffed it because he’s a sweet and kind person, again like Xander [4/10/23, 1:52:59 am] Sam: (I am hoping to exert some subliminal influence) [4/10/23, 1:53:22 am] Oli: Oh you did! [4/10/23, 1:53:25 am] Sam: Incidentally I think Zander would be a hotter transliteration than Xander [4/10/23, 1:53:28 am] Oli: I didn't realise this was before he came in the door. [4/10/23, 1:53:33 am] Oli: It is not a transliteration. [4/10/23, 1:53:35 am] Oli: It is a birth name! [4/10/23, 1:53:41 am] Oli: Normal for some. [4/10/23, 1:53:53 am] Oli: Or abbreviation or whatever. [4/10/23, 1:53:56 am] Sam: Well he never came in the door tbf, or not while I was there, I came in after he entered [4/10/23, 1:54:09 am] Oli: So you had this conversation with him outside the flat? ‎[4/10/23, 1:54:42 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 1:54:42 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 1:54:43 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 1:54:45 am] Oli: Slape is the master of sleaze. [4/10/23, 1:54:47 am] Oli: Sleazy Slape. [4/10/23, 1:55:11 am] Sam: Oh no sorry I just mean that Damien had repeated to me what he’d said, so I could ask Roman if he was coming [4/10/23, 1:55:13 am] Oli: Some are naturally self-effacing. [4/10/23, 1:55:27 am] Oli: Ah yes hence why I didn't register it. [4/10/23, 1:55:34 am] Oli: I was imagining some new Slape content before he came in the door! [4/10/23, 1:56:04 am] Oli: In spite of being inconvenienced like that by Slape. [4/10/23, 1:56:23 am] Oli: Slape could be a psychological measure. [4/10/23, 1:56:43 am] Oli: I see! [4/10/23, 1:56:51 am] Sam: Roman is a good soul [4/10/23, 1:57:12 am] Sam: Cunningly [4/10/23, 1:57:37 am] Sam: No not exactly - though there were several things he said that night that I knew were untrue by virtue of Roman [4/10/23, 1:57:41 am] Sam: But honestly Jesus christ [4/10/23, 1:57:42 am] Oli: Yes! We must all try. [4/10/23, 1:57:47 am] Sam: I expected Damien at worst [4/10/23, 1:58:07 am] Sam: I got, like, actually, there’s no comparison [4/10/23, 1:58:16 am] Sam: I can’t liken Slape to anything on earth [4/10/23, 1:58:19 am] Oli: Many of them were obviously untrue as soon as they were spoken. [4/10/23, 1:58:30 am] Oli: I knew this not knowing much about any of the dramatis personae involved. ‎[4/10/23, 1:58:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 1:59:03 am] Sam: ‘Poor slaps’ - 15 year old [4/10/23, 1:59:27 am] Oli: Very relatable! [4/10/23, 1:59:52 am] Sam: His ‘suing’ Mario, Stanley Tucci, fuck knows what else [4/10/23, 2:00:03 am] Sam: I was actually right in the end about the Australian bit [4/10/23, 2:00:13 am] Oli: That he bought a few hundred thousand pounds of coke for one party. [4/10/23, 2:00:19 am] Sam: Though at one point at least in the middle I lost my nerve and did say I thought he was faking that to [4/10/23, 2:00:19 am] Oli: Which didn't come in bricks but in many little bags. [4/10/23, 2:00:22 am] Oli: The man is a loon. [4/10/23, 2:00:24 am] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [4/10/23, 2:00:33 am] Sam: o [4/10/23, 2:00:53 am] Sam: Ah yes, when I mentioned Arran’s dad the other day, that was the guy I was talking about there [4/10/23, 2:01:21 am] Sam: We were in the extremely unusual position of actually getting a few grams of import-grade coke and whatever slaps was talking about was such drivel [4/10/23, 2:01:40 am] Sam: Wasn’t he saying that his friends did 200g of coke in one night or sth like that? [4/10/23, 2:01:48 am] Oli: Ah yes this was it. [4/10/23, 2:01:54 am] Sam: I actually never liked it tbqh [4/10/23, 2:02:25 am] Sam: I always felt that the adulterants added to ‘social’ coke actually take the edge off a lot, and balance out the stimulant-y feel [4/10/23, 2:02:41 am] Sam: It was intensely tachycardic and too intense [4/10/23, 2:02:42 am] Oli: This could be the case! [4/10/23, 2:02:46 am] Sam: Can’t describe it any other way [4/10/23, 2:02:53 am] Sam: I’d be fascinated to know sth [4/10/23, 2:02:59 am] Sam: The guy I mentioned somewhere or other to you [4/10/23, 2:03:12 am] Sam: The sugar daddy guy from the sixth form who bought me an iPhone 5S (thanks old friend!) [4/10/23, 2:03:47 am] Sam: He went around S America in the 70s and 80s as a public school y gap year kid working on rich guys’ yachts and firing Kalashnikovs at fishermen [4/10/23, 2:04:01 am] Sam: And he said the coke in the 80s back then in S America was a whooooole different thing [4/10/23, 2:04:18 am] Sam: Would be fascinated to know if it was more like Arran’s dad’s pilfered uncut coke [4/10/23, 2:04:34 am] Sam: (Sorry - that Arran pilfered from his dad, I mean, not that his dad pilfered) [4/10/23, 2:04:35 am] Oli: Yes I have heard that too. [4/10/23, 2:04:58 am] Sam: God I should do some work [4/10/23, 2:05:01 am] Sam: I like you [4/10/23, 2:05:11 am] Oli: Have you done any in the last week? [4/10/23, 2:05:15 am] Sam: Genoito hoios essi [4/10/23, 2:05:16 am] Oli: I must send some e-mails too! [4/10/23, 2:05:26 am] Sam: As Pindar says [4/10/23, 2:05:33 am] Sam: Coke or work? [4/10/23, 2:05:38 am] Sam: Oh work [4/10/23, 2:05:38 am] Oli: Interesting [4/10/23, 2:05:38 am] Sam: Yes [4/10/23, 2:05:42 am] Oli: Lol! [4/10/23, 2:05:43 am] Oli: Work [4/10/23, 2:05:50 am] Oli: I have done no work but coke in the last week [4/10/23, 2:05:58 am] Sam: I tend to work when I’m not thinking about stuff, which is usually when I’m talking to you [4/10/23, 2:06:02 am] Sam: Nah I’m kidding lol [4/10/23, 2:06:12 am] Sam: Good stuff! [4/10/23, 2:07:01 am] Oli: What Boris Johnson said to the foreign office guy telling him off for saying something about Kipling [4/10/23, 2:07:02 am] Sam: I mean seriously I find the “you’re a drug addict!” stuff a bit absurd (Tartarus is a bunch of drug addicts sitting around in a circle saying “you have a problem!” at each other when they get upset) but please do let me know if you feel you need help [4/10/23, 2:07:16 am] Sam: Not implying anything, just saying it since you’ve hinted at that [4/10/23, 2:07:26 am] Oli: Well coke is a different drug to stop I think. [4/10/23, 2:07:31 am] Sam: Oh yes, the Burma thing [4/10/23, 2:07:35 am] Sam: What was that again [4/10/23, 2:07:41 am] Sam: The white man’s burden or something probably lol [4/10/23, 2:07:45 am] Oli: If you don't do so much intently all the time it's a bit easier to stop I think. [4/10/23, 2:07:54 am] Oli: Oh yes! [4/10/23, 2:07:58 am] Oli: Something like that. [4/10/23, 2:08:02 am] Sam: And I know you like me btw [4/10/23, 2:08:05 am] Sam: :)) [4/10/23, 2:08:12 am] Sam: No I’m sure it can’t seriously have been [4/10/23, 2:08:12 am] Oli: LOL [4/10/23, 2:08:19 am] Sam: One sec let me look [4/10/23, 2:09:27 am] Oli: The Road to Mandalay ‎[4/10/23, 2:09:29 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 2:09:39 am] Sam: LOL [4/10/23, 2:09:48 am] Oli: Did Bob Marley write that? [4/10/23, 2:09:59 am] Oli: Normal! [4/10/23, 2:10:05 am] Sam: :) [4/10/23, 2:10:14 am] Oli: Very amusing. [4/10/23, 2:10:23 am] Oli: Mr Robinson-Himmler. [4/10/23, 2:10:29 am] Sam: No but I always felt Kipling had an excellent musicality to his verse [4/10/23, 2:10:31 am] Oli: I don't know why I add that to people's names. [4/10/23, 2:10:33 am] Oli: Oh dear. [4/10/23, 2:10:41 am] Sam: His scansion was superb [4/10/23, 2:10:46 am] Oli: Timmy is Lawson-Himmler. [4/10/23, 2:11:02 am] Sam: Good grasp of metre [4/10/23, 2:11:04 am] Oli: I send him drunk voice messages screaming at him the other day saying he is a rude millennial and a Himmlerer [4/10/23, 2:11:13 am] Sam: You also like Timmy [4/10/23, 2:11:13 am] Oli: I seem to use that word to mean I don't know exactly what now. [4/10/23, 2:11:19 am] Sam: Very clearly [4/10/23, 2:11:37 am] Sam: Romantically and probably somewhat more than me by my estimation (that is quite alright, lol) ‎ [4/10/23, 2:11:49 am] Sam: And it bemuses me ‎ [4/10/23, 2:12:05 am] Oli: :O [4/10/23, 2:12:21 am] Sam: I won’t bother to do the Xander routine again [4/10/23, 2:12:29 am] Oli: I thought you were. [4/10/23, 2:12:31 am] Oli: Funny! [4/10/23, 2:12:41 am] Sam: But he is premier cru and this Timmy guy is vin de table [4/10/23, 2:12:45 am] Sam: Vin ordinaire ‎ [4/10/23, 2:12:55 am] Oli: Probably true. [4/10/23, 2:13:01 am] Sam: You will regret it if you lose him [4/10/23, 2:13:02 am] Oli: I think it is true. [4/10/23, 2:13:11 am] Oli: Timmy is just a Himmler clown! He says Heil Himmler too! [4/10/23, 2:13:18 am] Oli: I seem to have created a bandwagon of loons. [4/10/23, 2:13:18 am] Sam: I don’t mean socially or anything like that [4/10/23, 2:13:37 am] Sam: I mean that Xander - from everything I have heard - is a thoughtful and original and kind human being [4/10/23, 2:13:39 am] Oli: You are not a loon it seems. [4/10/23, 2:13:45 am] Oli: Well, not in the same sense! [4/10/23, 2:14:20 am] Sam: I’m a loon when people don’t like what I say, I know that [4/10/23, 2:14:25 am] Sam: Loon and drug addict [4/10/23, 2:14:33 am] Oli: That's a good idea isn't it! [4/10/23, 2:14:38 am] Sam: Top #2 reasons for people who trust me to try to shrug off what I say [4/10/23, 2:14:56 am] Sam: Not reasons _for_ - that was inopportune wording [4/10/23, 2:15:01 am] Sam: Pretexts on which [4/10/23, 2:15:26 am] Oli: There are quite a lot in circulation! [4/10/23, 2:15:26 am] Sam: Loon, drug addict, think that’s about it, hmm, what else [4/10/23, 2:15:40 am] Sam: Paedophile gets an honourable mention but you didn’t go there [4/10/23, 2:15:50 am] Sam: (Please feel very welcome to go wheresoever you like!) [4/10/23, 2:15:55 am] Oli: I am concerned about messages being caught and me being linked! [4/10/23, 2:16:01 am] Oli: That's the only reason. [4/10/23, 2:16:04 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [4/10/23, 2:16:10 am] Sam: Well, drug addiction has the same risk surely! [4/10/23, 2:16:15 am] Sam: Except I guess drugs are legal really [4/10/23, 2:16:18 am] Oli: Oh I thought about that but it seems to be less of a crime. [4/10/23, 2:16:22 am] Oli: Drugs are more socially accepted. [4/10/23, 2:16:23 am] Sam: Well, you’re white and I’m white enough [4/10/23, 2:16:28 am] Oli: You can just about somehow recover from them. [4/10/23, 2:16:40 am] Sam: With some orange juice! [4/10/23, 2:16:51 am] Sam: But yeah no it’s an outrage [4/10/23, 2:16:56 am] Sam: It’s a ridiculous farce [4/10/23, 2:17:02 am] Oli: Paedophilia... [4/10/23, 2:17:05 am] Oli: Clink for you, my boy! [4/10/23, 2:17:11 am] Oli: Drugs have a different image! [4/10/23, 2:17:23 am] Sam: Literally no one but no one is prosecuted unless the police want to get you already [4/10/23, 2:17:33 am] Oli: Haha [4/10/23, 2:17:39 am] Sam: Ie if you’re black, brown, yellow, homeless, or a criminal whose crimes they can’t prove [4/10/23, 2:17:47 am] Oli: Be careful some of these Grindr messages aren't a trap. [4/10/23, 2:17:58 am] Oli: Now I will be prosecuted for aiding and abetting you probably. [4/10/23, 2:17:58 am] Sam: Oh I have been - one sec lol [4/10/23, 2:17:59 am] Oli: My God. [4/10/23, 2:18:01 am] Oli: What a fucking world. ‎[4/10/23, 2:19:08 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 2:19:20 am] Sam: Hahaha brilliant [4/10/23, 2:19:29 am] Oli: What was the result? [4/10/23, 2:19:32 am] Oli: Did you not go and meet the chap? [4/10/23, 2:19:37 am] Oli: Probably some fun people waiting! [4/10/23, 2:19:40 am] Oli: They do set that up! ‎[4/10/23, 2:20:01 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 2:20:32 am] Oli: Yes sounds as though it was maybe a build up a case. [4/10/23, 2:20:43 am] Oli: Though I think not for him. [4/10/23, 2:20:47 am] Sam: Nah I don’t know, the number of genuine teenagers who want to have sex is wild [4/10/23, 2:20:50 am] Oli: His replies don't seem that considered enough. [4/10/23, 2:20:54 am] Sam: I usually was hit on by them and not vice versa [4/10/23, 2:21:04 am] Sam: It’s a buyer’s market! [4/10/23, 2:21:18 am] Sam: After all no one else will dare [4/10/23, 2:21:26 am] Oli: I hope my door is not bashed down at 6am as a witness. [4/10/23, 2:21:38 am] Oli: I am on Exmoor still but maybe they will find out where I am based and come. [4/10/23, 2:21:39 am] Oli: And you! [4/10/23, 2:22:14 am] Sam: (Even though plenty of fuckin people in our circles are clearly equally attracted to teenagers, and indulge in the fiction that they magically become mature at the stroke of midnight on their 16th birthday or another birthday depending on what country they are currently in) [4/10/23, 2:22:31 am] Oli: Funny in the 15/16 chat... [4/10/23, 2:22:32 am] Sam: Likewise, that would be a pain to repair [4/10/23, 2:22:37 am] Oli: You mention many of your friends LOL. [4/10/23, 2:22:43 am] Oli: Wonder what would happen if they got hold of that? [4/10/23, 2:22:49 am] Oli: Would they go after them as witness? [4/10/23, 2:22:52 am] Oli: Probably not. [4/10/23, 2:22:54 am] Oli: But I wonder. [4/10/23, 2:23:10 am] Sam: My friends? No, why would they? I just mentioned them, I didn’t shout over to them and beckon them into the chat, haha [4/10/23, 2:23:24 am] Oli: That is true but I don't know what these sort of investigations entail! [4/10/23, 2:23:31 am] Sam: Something I said to that Gray kid might inculpate someone but that’s another point [4/10/23, 2:23:56 am] Oli: Yes that seems to sum it up! [4/10/23, 2:23:56 am] Sam: I know what the law entails, haha [4/10/23, 2:24:08 am] Sam: And nulla poena sine lege [4/10/23, 2:24:12 am] Oli: But what they do when they build up a case against a naughty naughty! [4/10/23, 2:24:25 am] Oli: Maybe truncheon you silly a bit! [4/10/23, 2:24:27 am] Oli: Which might be enjoyable. [4/10/23, 2:24:33 am] Sam: Oh they’d probably ask my friends anyway! [4/10/23, 2:24:36 am] Oli: But they must somehow do something when they read those things. [4/10/23, 2:24:37 am] Oli: LOL. [4/10/23, 2:24:42 am] Sam: I’m sure they would [4/10/23, 2:24:47 am] Sam: Ask my friends, that is [4/10/23, 2:24:54 am] Sam: I don’t know what you mean here? [4/10/23, 2:25:09 am] Oli: Work out if people are linked? [4/10/23, 2:25:16 am] Oli: I don't know maybe they don't actually and are just happy to have one person. [4/10/23, 2:25:23 am] Oli: They might be at that point. [4/10/23, 2:25:55 am] Sam: No, they’d try to link people, and they’d get one or two if they got into my phone (which they wouldn’t since I generally keep it in BFU mode) ‎[4/10/23, 2:25:56 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 2:26:05 am] Sam: But they wouldn’t go for friends per se [4/10/23, 2:26:11 am] Sam: Well, they’d probably ask friends anyway [4/10/23, 2:26:19 am] Sam: But I think it’s usually online communities with whites [4/10/23, 2:26:27 am] Sam: Notoriously less so with browns, more in person with them [4/10/23, 2:26:33 am] Oli: Not Boodle's? [4/10/23, 2:26:35 am] Sam: (Culturally I’m a white) [4/10/23, 2:26:44 am] Sam: I mean paedophile communities [4/10/23, 2:26:47 am] Oli: Haha. [4/10/23, 2:26:49 am] Sam: So the Carlton really [4/10/23, 2:26:53 am] Sam: But anyway [4/10/23, 2:26:57 am] Oli: Or Traveller's. [4/10/23, 2:27:01 am] Oli: They are quite fond there. [4/10/23, 2:27:14 am] Sam: Even paedophiles have some dignity [4/10/23, 2:27:32 am] Sam: But yes it would get out to my friends certainly [4/10/23, 2:27:49 am] Sam: Creepy Chris endlessly fought the media coverage and of course made it worse [4/10/23, 2:28:34 am] Sam: He’d known Milo Yiannopoulos from their tech days and was very amused, given Milo had written about him, that paedophilia was his downfall (in fact that incident was based in part on his writing about Chris, tho also iirc two others [4/10/23, 2:29:13 am] Sam: I love how people distance themselves, like Tom at Monzo: https://www.insider.com/tech-filmmaker-chris-leydon-jailed-7-years-for-child-sexual-assault-2017-10 [4/10/23, 2:29:31 am] Oli: My god. [4/10/23, 2:29:33 am] Oli: Lol! [4/10/23, 2:29:39 am] Oli: 'I love how people distance themselves, like Tom at Monzo' [4/10/23, 2:29:42 am] Oli: I love this summary. [4/10/23, 2:29:48 am] Sam: “I barely knew the guy” - oh bollocks at every social event you were both off in the corner putting the world to rights [4/10/23, 2:29:49 am] Oli: I wonder what I will say when asked about you. [4/10/23, 2:29:58 am] Oli: 'Oh yes... we saw it coming!' [4/10/23, 2:30:07 am] Oli: Or 'yes, he was a nice man. Good idea.' [4/10/23, 2:30:18 am] Sam: I would imagine ‘shocked and horrified’ [4/10/23, 2:30:19 am] Oli: I always find people's comments on the news about such things a source of amusement. [4/10/23, 2:30:24 am] Oli: That's the standard one. [4/10/23, 2:30:27 am] Sam: Or I might even get the Michael Jackson treatment [4/10/23, 2:30:45 am] Sam: “Tragic, he was stuck in his childhood” [4/10/23, 2:31:06 am] Sam: “He just did the anal rape because he was a misunderstood innocent” [4/10/23, 2:31:16 am] Oli: Smooth criminal! [4/10/23, 2:31:23 am] Oli: Well, that's me gone too after these jokes. [4/10/23, 2:31:36 am] Oli: Some new law I'm sure already exists. [4/10/23, 2:31:53 am] Sam: I don’t do anal rape, to be clear, and though I’m happy for you to rack up some points in this round I should clarify that I would never hurt anyone and I entirely defend my behaviour [4/10/23, 2:32:15 am] Sam: Plenty of old laws for this! [4/10/23, 2:32:41 am] Oli: No you did earlier clarify that you wouldn't do that! [4/10/23, 2:32:43 am] Sam: Before it was the left clutching its pearls, it was you lot, which is why we’ve got affray and disturbing the peace etc [4/10/23, 2:32:51 am] Sam: Well, ‘left’ [4/10/23, 2:32:54 am] Sam: The progressives [4/10/23, 2:33:00 am] Sam: The Whigs [4/10/23, 2:33:09 am] Oli: Affray and disturbing the peace! [4/10/23, 2:33:33 am] Oli: Probably happens a lot in those funny towns on nights out. [4/10/23, 2:33:39 am] Sam: I believe people should be pretty much able to call each other niggers if they want, though I have no affinity for those on the right who bang on about free speech and seem to be fine if we couldn’t say any word other than that [4/10/23, 2:34:06 am] Oli: Yes or Leroys. [4/10/23, 2:34:15 am] Sam: And I’m not living in a society that has to communicate by nigger morse code [4/10/23, 2:34:31 am] Oli: I have given lots of money to the negroid community. [4/10/23, 2:34:33 am] Oli: All coke dealers. [4/10/23, 2:34:38 am] Sam: Yes, whatever that is [4/10/23, 2:34:39 am] Oli: Maybe funded gang violence. [4/10/23, 2:34:42 am] Oli: I wonder. [4/10/23, 2:34:47 am] Sam: Sounds like one of your friends [4/10/23, 2:34:53 am] Sam: Leroy and his kid Fitzroy [4/10/23, 2:35:02 am] Oli: Harry and Meghan's child. [4/10/23, 2:35:03 am] Oli: Le Roi. [4/10/23, 2:35:07 am] Oli: Appropriate name. [4/10/23, 2:35:33 am] Sam: Ah yes, yes, I had him as a games master (long story) and thought he was sweet back then [4/10/23, 2:35:39 am] Sam: Dim but sweet [4/10/23, 2:35:41 am] Sam: Nice but dim [4/10/23, 2:35:50 am] Oli: LOL [4/10/23, 2:35:51 am] Oli: Funny [4/10/23, 2:35:56 am] Sam: Remember saying he’d be very well suited to being a plumber [4/10/23, 2:36:04 am] Oli: He behaves like one. [4/10/23, 2:36:25 am] Oli: Not so much anymore I suppose! [4/10/23, 2:36:47 am] Sam: I dunno, I haven’t kept in touch! [4/10/23, 2:36:56 am] Sam: (Nah I’m kidding I was never in touch, I’m not slaping) [4/10/23, 2:36:58 am] Oli: Based ont' news [4/10/23, 2:37:09 am] Sam: But I do remember he was still doing his Invictus thing back then [4/10/23, 2:37:14 am] Sam: Did some event about it at our school [4/10/23, 2:37:18 am] Sam: Big black banner is all I remember [4/10/23, 2:37:25 am] Sam: My friend Lars was not impressed [4/10/23, 2:37:30 am] Sam: Lemme grab screenies [4/10/23, 2:37:42 am] Oli: Ginger ninja Mr Harry! [4/10/23, 2:37:45 am] Oli: Funny business. ‎[4/10/23, 2:40:43 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 2:41:23 am] Sam: (He drove a rickshaw hire thingie) [4/10/23, 2:41:28 am] Sam: ((Interesting chap)) [4/10/23, 2:41:37 am] Oli: Firsov had one too! [4/10/23, 2:42:28 am] Sam: Haha golden [4/10/23, 2:42:41 am] Sam: Lars had some great prostitute stories [4/10/23, 2:42:43 am] Sam: Will find [4/10/23, 2:42:46 am] Sam: Hold on sec ‎[4/10/23, 2:43:17 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 2:43:31 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 2:43:42 am] Sam: ^ sorry, text is forwarded [4/10/23, 2:45:11 am] Oli: Yes, I am strangely interested in what they think about their job too. [4/10/23, 2:45:20 am] Oli: Or in stories about them. [4/10/23, 2:46:01 am] Sam: Oh shit I missed the end [4/10/23, 2:46:37 am] Sam: Oh weird I never took a screenshot [4/10/23, 2:46:48 am] Sam: And now it’s gone because my account was suspended for wishing death on idiots [4/10/23, 2:47:01 am] Oli: I can see it has been a good time for you! [4/10/23, 2:47:06 am] Sam: My prostitute friends by and large have been oddly positive about it [4/10/23, 2:47:09 am] Sam: As have my porn friends [4/10/23, 2:47:18 am] Sam: How do you mean? [4/10/23, 2:47:40 am] Oli: Making a joke about Twitter rows haha [4/10/23, 2:47:43 am] Oli: Lol [4/10/23, 2:47:49 am] Sam: Oh I see [4/10/23, 2:47:50 am] Oli: I am sure they must be infuriating. [4/10/23, 2:48:02 am] Sam: Yes but I think the good outweighs the bad [4/10/23, 2:48:11 am] Sam: > yet I trust that somehow good [4/10/23, 2:48:20 am] Sam: > shall be the [final?] end of ill [4/10/23, 2:48:51 am] Sam: > [?] I trust that good shall fall [4/10/23, 2:49:18 am] Sam: > at [least?], at last, to all, to … fuck it I need to read that verse again [4/10/23, 2:49:29 am] Sam: I blame cosmic ray bit flips [4/10/23, 2:49:37 am] Sam: But it’s a fucking long fucking poem in my defence [4/10/23, 2:49:59 am] Sam: There are lines in between in this stanza to be clear [4/10/23, 2:50:12 am] Sam: Something about defects of blood and pangs of something or other [4/10/23, 2:50:15 am] Oli: I should read more poems! [4/10/23, 2:50:48 am] Sam: I alarmed someone at the newsagent the other day by reciting Shelley’s Ozymandias to the guy at the till [4/10/23, 2:50:55 am] Sam: It was relevant, it’s a long story [4/10/23, 2:51:02 am] Sam: Not a terribly long poem [4/10/23, 2:51:03 am] Oli: Goodness! This sounds fun. [4/10/23, 2:51:10 am] Sam: I remember it well because it nicely fits many of my friends [4/10/23, 2:51:10 am] Oli: I did not realise you had such interactions. [4/10/23, 2:51:14 am] Oli: I do things like that. [4/10/23, 2:51:17 am] Sam: I met a travelller in. An.banquet w lien [4/10/23, 2:51:20 am] Sam: Fucks same [4/10/23, 2:51:23 am] Sam: In an antique land [4/10/23, 2:51:24 am] Sam: Who said [4/10/23, 2:51:29 am] Sam: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone [4/10/23, 2:51:32 am] Sam: Stand in the desert [4/10/23, 2:51:33 am] Sam: Near them [4/10/23, 2:51:35 am] Sam: On the sand [4/10/23, 2:51:37 am] Sam: Half sunk [4/10/23, 2:51:40 am] Sam: A shattered visage lies [4/10/23, 2:51:42 am] Sam: Whose frown [4/10/23, 2:51:45 am] Sam: And wrinkled lip [4/10/23, 2:51:49 am] Sam: And sneer of cold command [4/10/23, 2:51:57 am] Sam: Tell that its sculptor work those psssions read [4/10/23, 2:52:00 am] Sam: well* [4/10/23, 2:52:05 am] Sam: (Interested to see how accurate) [4/10/23, 2:52:13 am] Sam: Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things [4/10/23, 2:52:30 am] Sam: The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed (Not quite sure about this one) [4/10/23, 2:52:37 am] Sam: And on the pedestal these words appear [4/10/23, 2:52:45 am] Sam: My name is oxymandi a and something like that [4/10/23, 2:52:50 am] Sam: King of kings [4/10/23, 2:53:01 am] Sam: Look on my works ye mighty and despair [4/10/23, 2:53:11 am] Sam: And … goddammit I’ve lost it [4/10/23, 2:53:14 am] Sam: Two more lines [4/10/23, 2:53:20 am] Oli: It sounds a good trip to the shop. [4/10/23, 2:53:22 am] Sam: Around the decay of that colossal wreck? [4/10/23, 2:53:25 am] Sam: Boundless and bare [4/10/23, 2:53:28 am] Oli: Or newsagent! [4/10/23, 2:53:31 am] Sam: The lone and level sands stretch far away [4/10/23, 2:53:40 am] Sam: But I’m missing a couple of words in that first of the last two lines I think [4/10/23, 2:53:44 am] Sam: Doesn’t quite scan [4/10/23, 2:53:48 am] Sam: Anyway!!!! [4/10/23, 2:54:02 am] Sam: Sorry I realised halfway through that it was a bit ott but I had to finish [4/10/23, 2:54:12 am] Sam: Quite! [4/10/23, 2:54:23 am] Sam: I dunno why these things are stuck in my head [4/10/23, 2:54:34 am] Sam: Half my brain is Tennyson’s in memoriam [4/10/23, 2:54:48 am] Sam: In fucking memoriam indeed [4/10/23, 2:55:24 am] Oli: I have a diary from an ancestor who was a poet (more random) who meets Tennyson on the Isle of Mann. [4/10/23, 2:55:34 am] Oli: An Allingham actually. Related on the Watt side of the family. ‎[4/10/23, 2:55:43 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 2:56:00 am] Oli: Is it Mann or Wight. I wonder. [4/10/23, 2:56:18 am] Sam: Man? [4/10/23, 2:56:27 am] Sam: Weird place, weird race [4/10/23, 2:56:31 am] Sam: The Manxmen [4/10/23, 2:56:33 am] Oli: Man rather. [4/10/23, 2:56:35 am] Oli: Yes. [4/10/23, 2:57:04 am] Sam: Money launderers, paedophiles, online gambling site operators, and the cast of the English remake of Deliverance ‎ [4/10/23, 2:57:11 am] Oli: Probably I've conflated things and it was both. Tennyson was on the Isle of Wight apparently. [4/10/23, 2:57:29 am] Sam: I dimly remember, yeah [4/10/23, 2:57:35 am] Oli: Not an original/valuable one (just a book ordered from Amazon to be honest)! [4/10/23, 2:57:36 am] Sam: Roman’s always there [4/10/23, 2:57:39 am] Oli: The Allingham Diaries [4/10/23, 2:57:42 am] Sam: He saw an excellent cow recently [4/10/23, 2:58:07 am] Oli: Some people do live there it seems! [4/10/23, 2:58:26 am] Oli: The Manx! ‎[4/10/23, 2:58:36 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 2:58:37 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 2:58:37 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 2:58:38 am] Oli: For most it is second homes or sailing trips I think. [4/10/23, 2:59:41 am] Oli: I have cows like that in Wales. Or similar. [4/10/23, 2:59:44 am] Oli: My uncle's farm now! [4/10/23, 3:00:05 am] Sam: They’re called people there [4/10/23, 3:00:08 am] Oli: Also an odd tiny herd of horses. [4/10/23, 3:00:18 am] Oli: I was unaware! [4/10/23, 3:01:12 am] Sam: Yes, the Welsh, funny lot [4/10/23, 3:01:12 am] Oli: Ah yes Hallam Tennyson. Always found that interesting. [4/10/23, 3:01:16 am] Oli: The son named etc. [4/10/23, 3:01:22 am] Oli: Tennyson is an interesting man! [4/10/23, 3:01:54 am] Sam: You mean dad Hallam [4/10/23, 3:01:56 am] Sam: Henry Hallam [4/10/23, 3:02:00 am] Sam: Whig historian [4/10/23, 3:02:04 am] Sam: Or Arthur [4/10/23, 3:02:06 am] Sam: Why do I know this [4/10/23, 3:02:08 am] Oli: Yes. Arthur. [4/10/23, 3:02:13 am] Oli: Alfred named his son after his friend. [4/10/23, 3:02:28 am] Sam: Oh really? I didn’t know [4/10/23, 3:02:37 am] Sam: That sounded sarky [4/10/23, 3:02:39 am] Sam: It wasn’t [4/10/23, 3:02:42 am] Sam: I didn’t know [4/10/23, 3:02:44 am] Sam: Interesting [4/10/23, 3:02:55 am] Oli: Yes, actually on the whole side of that family (the Allinghams, Watt mother was an Allingham) there are lots of interesting moral people. [4/10/23, 3:03:01 am] Oli: I am just looking ont'ternet now. [4/10/23, 3:03:09 am] Oli: Mary Wollstonecraft lol. [4/10/23, 3:03:17 am] Oli: And some Norwegian fundraiser. [4/10/23, 3:03:22 am] Oli: Hence my Norwegian cousins am going to in Nov. [4/10/23, 3:03:27 am] Sam: Oh that would explain the reading I got! [4/10/23, 3:03:39 am] Oli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoning_Owesen [4/10/23, 3:03:45 am] Sam: Think she was born near-ish my parents [4/10/23, 3:03:49 am] Oli: I contributed to his page somehow. [4/10/23, 3:03:54 am] Sam: Maybe wrong actually [4/10/23, 3:03:54 am] Oli: My gt-gt-gt Norwegian uncle. [4/10/23, 3:04:01 am] Sam: Non-conformist church [4/10/23, 3:04:11 am] Sam: By clicking ‘edit’! [4/10/23, 3:04:22 am] Sam: God I recently on a few occasions edited Wikipedia pages [4/10/23, 3:04:29 am] Oli: He was acually Danish and he was actually first cousin removed but he was adopted into our Irish family and raised alongside an ancestor, so I call him an uncle. [4/10/23, 3:04:41 am] Oli: Very interesting. Left all of his money to charity! [4/10/23, 3:04:46 am] Sam: You look better with a red pen in your hand [4/10/23, 3:04:53 am] Sam: As in: one looks more goodly [4/10/23, 3:05:02 am] Sam: Not fashion advice [4/10/23, 3:05:18 am] Sam: Name? [4/10/23, 3:05:34 am] Oli: Thoning Owesen. [4/10/23, 3:05:48 am] Sam: Interesting! Looking! [4/10/23, 3:05:50 am] Oli: Owesen is widely remembered for his philanthropy both during and after his lifetime.[3] After his death, he left 334,000 Norwegian krone (£3.7 million or 40 million Norwegian krone in 2018[1]) to enable the foundation of the Dalen Blindeskole, an institution for the blind, which was the first of its kind in Norway.[6][3] Owesen also left a total of 528,780.58 Norwegian krone (£5.3 million in 2018[1]) to causes including a children's home, restoration of Nidaros Cathedral, other religious causes, local causes and the benefit of the poor.[2] Part of this money, 32,000 Norwegian krone (£356,421 in 2018[1]), was left to his servants.[2] [4/10/23, 3:06:07 am] Oli: Yes. I wanted to go to Trondheim to see the memorial to him! My cousins live in Oslo! [4/10/23, 3:06:24 am] Sam: Good man 👍 (no offence intended) [4/10/23, 3:06:34 am] Sam: Ugh, christ [4/10/23, 3:06:42 am] Sam: Don’t remind me that Oslo exists [4/10/23, 3:06:53 am] Oli: I like Oslo! [4/10/23, 3:07:05 am] Oli: The people can sometimes be too robotlike though. [4/10/23, 3:07:11 am] Oli: Once you know some of them they are a bit better. [4/10/23, 3:07:33 am] Sam: And when did you lose your eyes? [4/10/23, 3:07:50 am] Oli: Haha what do you dislike about it?! [4/10/23, 3:07:57 am] Oli: Some of the architecture can be odd. [4/10/23, 3:08:02 am] Sam: There’s the opera house in the evening (or the Operahuset or whatever stupid name they call it by) and that’s it [4/10/23, 3:08:03 am] Sam: Oslo done [4/10/23, 3:08:05 am] Sam: Tick [4/10/23, 3:08:12 am] Oli: Oh yes. [4/10/23, 3:08:18 am] Oli: The new Munch museum is near there now. [4/10/23, 3:08:21 am] Sam: I literally sat in my fucking hotel room for several days because it was more interesting than going out [4/10/23, 3:08:32 am] Sam: By three days in we were down to going to fucking Ibsen’s flat [4/10/23, 3:08:33 am] Oli: That's by the marina. [4/10/23, 3:08:47 am] Sam: (Actually I’m a big fan of Ibsen - but not of his flat) [4/10/23, 3:08:48 am] Oli: Yes I have not yet done this. Been to Oslo 4-5 times now! [4/10/23, 3:09:04 am] Sam: Perfectly nice flat but it did not shed any light on his marvellous oeuvre [4/10/23, 3:09:09 am] Sam: Ghosts a particular cave [4/10/23, 3:09:16 am] Sam: When We Dead Awaken too [4/10/23, 3:09:17 am] Sam: Not flat [4/10/23, 3:09:45 am] Sam: God after a while you’d think they’d stop paying the ransom [4/10/23, 3:09:58 am] Sam: Horrid city [4/10/23, 3:10:07 am] Sam: Grimmest place I’ve ever been on or off the face of the planet earth [4/10/23, 3:10:38 am] Sam: Vile [4/10/23, 3:10:47 am] Sam: Wish I’d gone to fucking Eastern Europe [4/10/23, 3:10:56 am] Sam: Bunch of exhaust pipe cases [4/10/23, 3:11:27 am] Oli: I quite like it in November. Lots of snow! [4/10/23, 3:11:36 am] Oli: I've also been in July and September times. [4/10/23, 3:11:39 am] Sam: I quite like it in the past [4/10/23, 3:11:55 am] Sam: I think I went in September ish [4/10/23, 3:12:05 am] Sam: It was as horrid then as it surely was at any other point [4/10/23, 3:12:10 am] Sam: The fuck is there to do in Oslo [4/10/23, 3:12:15 am] Sam: Fucking what [4/10/23, 3:12:21 am] Sam: Fucking Aker fucking brygge [4/10/23, 3:12:25 am] Sam: Not even a place [4/10/23, 3:12:30 am] Sam: Fucking stupid castle thing [4/10/23, 3:12:33 am] Sam: Opera house [4/10/23, 3:12:35 am] Oli: I am Turkey 8th-22nd October and Oslo 9th-20th Nov. [4/10/23, 3:12:36 am] Oli: Haha [4/10/23, 3:12:38 am] Sam: Stupid park [4/10/23, 3:12:38 am] Oli: Opera house is mad. [4/10/23, 3:12:40 am] Oli: Aker Brygge yes [4/10/23, 3:12:41 am] Oli: The marina [4/10/23, 3:12:45 am] Oli: They have nice flats there apparently [4/10/23, 3:12:46 am] Sam: Stupid other park [4/10/23, 3:12:51 am] Oli: Frogner Park [4/10/23, 3:12:52 am] Sam: Stupid sculpture park [4/10/23, 3:12:53 am] Oli: The statues [4/10/23, 3:13:01 am] Oli: That is Gustav Vigeland [4/10/23, 3:13:11 am] Sam: Stupid art gallery with shitty art because the Scandinavians can’t make art [4/10/23, 3:13:16 am] Oli: Munch! [4/10/23, 3:13:16 am] Oli: LO [4/10/23, 3:13:18 am] Oli: LOL haha [4/10/23, 3:13:23 am] Sam: Couldn’t even fucking steal it in fucking WWII the morons [4/10/23, 3:13:23 am] Oli: Yes I am going to new Munch museum I hope [4/10/23, 3:13:32 am] Oli: But I like your summaries here they make me laugh [4/10/23, 3:13:36 am] Oli: I went to the resistance museum once [4/10/23, 3:13:38 am] Oli: Near the castle [4/10/23, 3:13:43 am] Oli: Akershaus [4/10/23, 3:13:44 am] Oli: It's called [4/10/23, 3:13:45 am] Sam: Fucking billions of tons of money from their fucking oil and they can’t even buy some fucking art [4/10/23, 3:14:02 am] Oli: Scandinavians are very funny people! [4/10/23, 3:14:05 am] Oli: Amusing. [4/10/23, 3:14:05 am] Sam: Yes I think I might’ve gone there [4/10/23, 3:14:08 am] Oli: Norwegians anyway [4/10/23, 3:14:09 am] Oli: LOL [4/10/23, 3:14:10 am] Sam: That’s the one good thing they did [4/10/23, 3:14:12 am] Sam: Resisting [4/10/23, 3:14:12 am] Oli: They seem stuck. [4/10/23, 3:14:21 am] Sam: Little do we know that they just fucking resist everything [4/10/23, 3:14:22 am] Oli: Quisling [4/10/23, 3:14:22 am] Oli: haha [4/10/23, 3:14:25 am] Sam: Fucking Scandinavians [4/10/23, 3:14:31 am] Sam: Would’ve resisted us [4/10/23, 3:14:40 am] Sam: Skiing around shooting people [4/10/23, 3:14:42 am] Sam: Yes very fun [4/10/23, 3:14:56 am] Sam: History of the Finland war [4/10/23, 3:15:03 am] Sam: First meth overdose there, incidentally [4/10/23, 3:15:31 am] Sam: Guy took 14g of meth and accidentally defeated the Soviet Union ‎[4/10/23, 3:16:15 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 3:16:20 am] Sam: Incidentally this is wild to me [4/10/23, 3:16:35 am] Sam: You can use a zero width joiner in a domain name [4/10/23, 3:16:52 am] Sam: Look at this (wait let me switch to my laptop bc I can’t generate the character on here) [4/10/23, 3:17:20 am] Sam: facebook.com [4/10/23, 3:17:22 am] Sam: faceboo‍k.com [4/10/23, 3:17:30 am] Sam: Any difference you can see? [4/10/23, 3:17:48 am] Sam: Ah goddammit I think whatsapp has corrected the second one, lemme check [4/10/23, 3:17:53 am] Sam: Clever if so [4/10/23, 3:18:34 am] Sam: faceboo‍k .com (delete the space and paste into your browser) [4/10/23, 3:18:47 am] Sam: Ah wait goddammit it's still removed [4/10/23, 3:18:51 am] Sam: WhatsApp you bastards [4/10/23, 3:19:33 am] Sam: faceboo‌k .com (sorry, can't try without sending - it seems to do the censorship/transformation when you send, not when you type/paste) [4/10/23, 3:19:45 am] Sam: Ah nice it worked [4/10/23, 3:19:49 am] Sam: faceboo‌k.com [4/10/23, 3:19:58 am] Sam: That still didn't work [4/10/23, 3:20:09 am] Sam: Try deleting the space from the last one with the space in [4/10/23, 3:20:45 am] Sam: That one isn't registered, and on Firefox it gets an NXDOMAIN and thus resorts to googling, but it could be registered [4/10/23, 3:21:59 am] Sam: (Realistically you'd have trouble getting such an obvious one past the registrar, but for smaller companies this is a hornet nest for all kinds of things, push payment fraud mainly i imagine) [4/10/23, 3:22:18 am] Sam: Sorry, prob not terribly interesting for you! Oh well! [4/10/23, 3:23:48 am] Sam: Zero-width non-joiner is before the last 'k' for the record - you can tell by deleting the characters key by key (but there's basically no other way a normal person could tell) [4/10/23, 3:25:52 am] Sam: (This is sufficiently niche that I'm quite curious to know if anyone else has actually identified the risk (obviously the architects of the IDN domains RFC were well aware of such risks because they've tried to minimise them but all the solutions are necessarily deeply unsatisfactory because these characters are unavoidably used for certain languages: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5890) [4/10/23, 3:29:13 am] Sam: Imagine this - this is when they were still trying to make sure that 'aristocrat' implied 'good person', at least, if not best [4/10/23, 3:29:18 am] Sam: Not aristos but agathos at least [4/10/23, 3:29:19 am] Oli: What surprises me is the amount of work that goes into domains. [4/10/23, 3:29:44 am] Sam: How do you mean? Like, acquiring a domain name? Or sth else? [4/10/23, 3:29:46 am] Oli: aristocrat.com [4/10/23, 3:29:52 am] Oli: Well all of this [4/10/23, 3:29:53 am] Oli: Lol [4/10/23, 3:30:04 am] Sam: Oh yeah lots [4/10/23, 3:30:32 am] Sam: DNS is a glory of the internet, possibly one of the heights of human accomplishment, and HTTP is fine too [4/10/23, 3:31:02 am] Sam: And then on top of this marvellous decentralised network carefully designed to be utterly democratic, we have built an internet made of four website [4/10/23, 3:31:03 am] Oli: oh yes http [4/10/23, 3:31:03 am] Sam: s [4/10/23, 3:31:10 am] Oli: Never knew what http was apart from a search thing [4/10/23, 3:31:31 am] Sam: Where every single one of them is served by Cloudflare, in a kind of DDoS protection racket (not implying Cloudflare actually orchestrate the attacks) [4/10/23, 3:31:49 am] Sam: So that any site can be brought off the internet just by bringing a bit of PR pressure to bear on Cloudflare [4/10/23, 3:31:54 am] Sam: (As happened to 4Chan) [4/10/23, 3:32:26 am] Sam: I have no love for 4chan and I find that stupid neckbeard edgy drivel to be soporific in the extreme, but this is bad for the internet [4/10/23, 3:32:46 am] Sam: One of the biggest failures of the left is this turn towards moralism and the tyranny of the majority [4/10/23, 3:33:01 am] Sam: The internet was a glorious anarchic cauldron of ideas and cultures [4/10/23, 3:33:24 am] Sam: Who could imagine the ACLU defending the American Nazi Party's right to march in Skokie today? [4/10/23, 3:33:27 am] Oli: Quite... [4/10/23, 3:33:27 am] Sam: A sad state of affairs [4/10/23, 3:33:41 am] Sam: Free speech should be a left-wing cause [4/10/23, 3:33:46 am] Sam: Was during the Bush years [4/10/23, 3:33:52 am] Sam: Not during the Obama years [4/10/23, 3:34:08 am] Sam: By Trump it was stone dead and somehow remained a purely right-wing cause celebre even then [4/10/23, 3:34:19 am] Sam: Embarrassing [4/10/23, 3:34:25 am] Sam: I didn't like Trump obviously [4/10/23, 3:35:00 am] Sam: But Obama .... obviously he's not a Muslim or an evil communist (I wish) or whatever, but he represented a kind of besuited inhumanity that I detest ‎[4/10/23, 3:35:19 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 3:35:33 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 3:35:46 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 3:35:50 am] Sam: over [4/10/23, 3:36:06 am] Oli: Yes the tables turned at some point and the left went odd culturally. [4/10/23, 3:36:19 am] Oli: I would like to look into this more. I had some stuff on it a while ago. [4/10/23, 3:36:57 am] Sam: Abortion is one of the weird ones for me [4/10/23, 3:37:05 am] Sam: The fuck is it a right wing issue? [4/10/23, 3:37:08 am] Sam: Sanctity of life? [4/10/23, 3:37:23 am] Sam: Since when has the bulk of the right wing cared about sanctity of life? Fucking joke [4/10/23, 3:37:55 am] Oli: Yes, this one makes no sense at lal. [4/10/23, 3:37:57 am] Oli: at all* [4/10/23, 3:38:00 am] Sam: It was a left-wing issue till Roe [4/10/23, 3:38:20 am] Sam: Or rather an issue among Catholics in left-wing northern states in the US [4/10/23, 3:38:27 am] Sam: (It's not really a thing here) [4/10/23, 3:38:46 am] Sam: Then Roe tied it into the hated progressive raft of decisions from the Warren Court [4/10/23, 3:38:59 am] Sam: (Burger Court after 69 by time Roe decided in 73) [4/10/23, 3:39:27 am] Sam: And then Protestants jump onto it, and then in the 90s and 00s evangelicals become a force to be reckoned with (they were reckoned with and now are dead) [4/10/23, 3:39:57 am] Sam: But abortion has remained blindly fought along cultural lines, in the US and also the VHS release of the US that we call the UK [4/10/23, 3:40:37 am] Sam: Right wing arguing that a zygote is morally equivalent to a newborn baby, and left wing arguing that a newborn baby is morally equivalent to nothing if you shove it back through the vagina [4/10/23, 3:41:04 am] Sam: Left wing apparently believes that a fetus is activated like a Coke can at a Hilton minibar - only counts the moment you pull it out [4/10/23, 3:41:40 am] Oli: They've been trepanned it sounds. [4/10/23, 3:41:43 am] Sam: In reality, fetal pain (which is the only thing that matters unless you're an unsalvageable imbecile) is a phenomenally hard subject to talk about with certainty [4/10/23, 3:42:04 am] Sam: But a very conservative estimate would put it at about 10 weeks after which we _can't rule out_ that the fetus might feel pain [4/10/23, 3:42:21 am] Sam: And after about 20 (more roughly) it's a near certainty [4/10/23, 3:43:06 am] Sam: And I don't see why any intelligent person shouldn't push for abortion to be maximally legal up till at least 10, and then illegal after it except in vanishingly rare cases to be decided by something resembling an IRB [4/10/23, 3:44:02 am] Oli: I have never understood these abortion debates either. [4/10/23, 3:44:06 am] Sam: And even then if you could have had it done earlier - if you made your own bad moral luck - then you get your arm cut off or something like that, as a reminder not to treat sentient beings like omelettes [4/10/23, 3:44:36 am] Oli: I am impressed with your analytical skills when it comes to discerning the various stupid arguments and working out a solution. [4/10/23, 3:44:59 am] Sam: "What if the woman is raped and held captive for months? What if two kinds of contraception fail? What if she gets an abortion but it's actually a surprise birthday party?" [4/10/23, 3:45:12 am] Sam: Not skills, just honesty! [4/10/23, 3:45:20 am] Sam: As Bentham said... [one sec] ‎[4/10/23, 3:46:01 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 3:46:09 am] Sam: That is the only question [4/10/23, 3:46:13 am] Sam: That is all that matters [4/10/23, 3:46:53 am] Sam: (And I accept that 'suffer' is somewhat philosophically gnarly at the lower levels - you realise this if you look into invertebrate pain, as I have, because these things trouble me) [4/10/23, 3:47:11 am] Sam: (...but we can but do our best) [4/10/23, 3:47:16 am] Oli: I agree with Bentham on this. [4/10/23, 3:47:25 am] Oli: Or that point. [4/10/23, 3:47:35 am] Oli: But your thing about Behtma [4/10/23, 3:47:37 am] Oli: Bentham [4/10/23, 3:47:38 am] Oli: haha [4/10/23, 3:47:47 am] Sam: Yes, Bentham is right about everything [4/10/23, 3:48:00 am] Oli: KCL students played football with his head. [4/10/23, 3:48:08 am] Oli: From UCL! [4/10/23, 3:48:15 am] Oli: Haha [4/10/23, 3:48:18 am] Sam: Good old Strand Poly [4/10/23, 3:48:25 am] Sam: Also eugenics - people are fucking mad on this one [4/10/23, 3:48:30 am] Sam: Makes me sick [4/10/23, 3:48:33 am] Sam: I had a Twitter conv [4/10/23, 3:48:40 am] Oli: Invertebrate pain. Yes I wonder about that. [4/10/23, 3:48:52 am] Oli: Lots more than we'd typically think, yes! [4/10/23, 3:48:55 am] Sam: I said "why would you want to bring children into the world who have horrifying neural tube defects?" [4/10/23, 3:49:00 am] Sam: (No offence to your friends) [4/10/23, 3:49:04 am] Sam: And this guy's answer [4/10/23, 3:49:08 am] Sam: wait lemme find [4/10/23, 3:49:28 am] Oli: 👴🏻 ‎[4/10/23, 3:51:27 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 3:51:52 am] Sam: Would link but my latest account got suspended for wishing death on more idiots [4/10/23, 3:52:05 am] Sam: (Well, actually on Primark) [4/10/23, 3:53:37 am] Oli: Clever how I can scroll on this when I click it [4/10/23, 3:53:40 am] Oli: Not sure how that works [4/10/23, 3:53:53 am] Oli: Oh I had zoomed in so could scroll down [4/10/23, 3:54:05 am] Sam: It may auto zoom, yeah ‎[4/10/23, 3:54:57 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 3:56:00 am] Oli: This answer is mind-boggling. [4/10/23, 3:56:11 am] Sam: I doubt their mind even boggles [4/10/23, 3:56:29 am] Oli: Are you wishing death here? [4/10/23, 3:56:37 am] Oli: It doesn’t seem obvious enough for Twitter. [4/10/23, 3:56:40 am] Sam: Completely unreflectively insincere bad Asda clockwork windup robot imitations of human beings [4/10/23, 3:56:57 am] Sam: Doubt they have ever had a thought in their lives [4/10/23, 3:57:00 am] Oli: Ah in a just world he would be shot. [4/10/23, 3:57:13 am] Oli: Not you necessarily obviously wishing it so clearly [4/10/23, 3:57:13 am] Sam: Yes, which it’s rather optimistic to read as a death threat [4/10/23, 3:57:18 am] Oli: That seems too ambitious for Twitter [4/10/23, 3:57:25 am] Sam: Optimistic about the state of the world [4/10/23, 3:57:53 am] Oli: Good description. [4/10/23, 3:58:17 am] Oli: Having read that a few times in the last few minutes it makes no sense at all. [4/10/23, 3:58:22 am] Oli: ‘Unconditional love’. ‎[4/10/23, 3:58:38 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 3:58:39 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 3:58:39 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 3:58:40 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 3:58:45 am] Oli: OK but that is even a bit far. How will the young baby register this? [4/10/23, 3:58:47 am] Oli: Mad [4/10/23, 3:59:09 am] Sam: Which young baby? [4/10/23, 3:59:21 am] Oli: In this [4/10/23, 4:00:16 am] Sam: I like this one, where I was literally explicitly promoting violence in those exact words and didn’t set off their stupid rule [4/10/23, 4:01:22 am] Sam: Oh, well, with its proprioceptive and enteral system, and nerves, and trigeminal nucleus and thalamus and periaqueductal gray and probably the cerebral cortex to some extent as well as the marginal nucleus of the spinal column [4/10/23, 4:02:15 am] Sam: The trigeminal nerve is a big part but probably the cortical bits regulate the subjective awareness of pain while the thalamus and periaqueductal gray likely account for the _sensations_ of it [4/10/23, 4:02:28 am] Sam: (I have looked into this a fuck ton) [4/10/23, 4:02:42 am] Sam: Fear is also very interesting, as a component of what makes suffering [4/10/23, 4:20:30 am] Sam: I mean, really, the amount of suffering that goes on is too harrowing to imagine. I could talk for _days_ about birth defects and fetal pain and ‘concentrated animal feeding’ and waking during surgery and Mexican drug gangs and the failure of aid to African states and pyrethroid-induced choreoathetosis syndrome and neurogenic pain and Minamata syndrome and Central African bush wars and the places you can fly to on Kam Air from Kabul airport (not the EU since one of their planes ‘disappeared’) and the exact point at weeks 8-9 when the fetus makes ‘reflex’ systemic myoclonic jerk responses to local stimuli and etc etc etc etc. I am horrified and traumatised and harrowed by all of it, what I’ve seen and what I’ve not seen, so much of it so fucking easily avoided. I left the room every time you came around not to make a point but because it makes me sick to piss around like this while people are tortured and starved. I hope to god I never come to accept that. ‎[4/10/23, 12:32:27 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 12:32:27 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 4:07:18 pm] Oli: Ah good morning! 🤣 [4/10/23, 4:08:24 pm] Oli: 🥸 [4/10/23, 4:08:54 pm] Oli: Good old Janice 🥸🥸 [4/10/23, 4:09:29 pm] Sam: Also sorry, I don’t quite get this question. It registers pain much as a near-term fetus would, right? Or an adult human? This is part of my problem with the abortion argument, this guff that people talk about ‘consciousness’. “Oh yes it exhibits whole-body movements in reaction to a localised stimulus, but it’s not _conscious_, it’s just a reflex!” Well, that’s true of anyone. By definition we don’t know what anyone else thinks. (See the interesting variation in that argument about iniencephalic babies.) I can’t know what you think even if we speak the same language, because I can’t know what meaning you assign to language without knowing your thoughts. We said this ‘reflex’ shit about black people, we said it about women (black women had a particularly hard time of it), and we said it of newborn babies until shockingly recently - only just before the millennium did we start regularly using analgesia for neonatal surgery after a kid’s parents took a hospital to court for performing open heart surgery without anaesthetics or analgesics. Pretty much the only thing we can know with certainty is that they recoil from pain. [4/10/23, 4:09:41 pm] Sam: Not angry! Just long! ^ [4/10/23, 4:10:04 pm] Sam: Haha, Freddie’s mum! [4/10/23, 4:10:14 pm] Sam: (No I think she’s called Janet, but still funny) [4/10/23, 4:10:25 pm] Sam: Shoulda called him Janus really [4/10/23, 4:12:23 pm] Oli: Yes exactly [4/10/23, 4:12:50 pm] Oli: But sorry I meant would the young baby even register the parents’/parent’s unconditional love. Don’t think so. For however small a time. [4/10/23, 4:12:59 pm] Oli: In this example the person is replying to you etc. [4/10/23, 4:13:15 pm] Sam: Oh no, of course not. What bollocks. Its face is stitched to its spine. [4/10/23, 4:14:03 pm] Oli: Twitter moronism! ‎[4/10/23, 4:15:05 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 4:15:05 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 4:48:30 pm] Oli: Damien’s screenshots! [4/10/23, 4:48:31 pm] Oli: 🤣 [4/10/23, 4:48:34 pm] Oli: Thinks it’s Slape [4/10/23, 4:48:43 pm] Oli: Funny I used the phrase ‘revolving door’ in a chat with you. [4/10/23, 4:49:03 pm] Oli: But it must be a fairly common or understood phrase as I didn’t tell anyone [4/10/23, 4:49:13 pm] Oli: Somehow don’t think that one is Slape! 🤣 [4/10/23, 4:49:15 pm] Oli: But who knows [4/10/23, 4:49:44 pm] Oli: It’s very haunting. Immediately after birth. [4/10/23, 4:59:56 pm] Sam: Oh my god… I’d totally missed that. With Damien it could be anyone! I’ll reply in thread in a mo! [4/10/23, 5:00:09 pm] Sam: (Not with that comment!) ‎[4/10/23, 5:04:23 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 5:07:30 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 6:37:24 pm] Sam: I don’t mean to be morbid with these things. There is beauty in the world too, but … god, I don’t think it’s because of some problem in my character, I think my reaction is normal or at least healthy. I think the difference is that I’m paying attention. [4/10/23, 6:38:12 pm] Sam: I’m seriously considering starting a sort of dating agency for the terminally ill or suicidal or homeless to carry out mercy killings of people who consent but physically can’t do it themselves and legally aren’t allowed help [4/10/23, 6:40:13 pm] Sam: I do feel some kind of duty to do something useful with my second lease of life [4/10/23, 6:40:38 pm] Sam: I mean, even cluster headaches [4/10/23, 6:40:51 pm] Sam: Suicide headaches as they’re called [4/10/23, 6:41:02 pm] Sam: Ménière’s disease or sth like that [4/10/23, 6:46:29 pm] Sam: Like, imagine bringing a child into the world whose life will be lived in terror of continual, daily, agonising, ear-piercing pain, so severe that they often have neurectomies, i.e. destruction of the nervous tissue in their brain, a ‘kill or cure’ surgery usually only done for people with end-stage inoperable cancers etc. Fucking horrifying. [4/10/23, 6:46:35 pm] Sam: God [4/10/23, 6:46:36 pm] Sam: Sorry [4/10/23, 6:46:40 pm] Sam: But very tempted [4/10/23, 6:46:50 pm] Sam: Anyway what news [4/10/23, 6:46:56 pm] Sam: Please distract me [4/10/23, 6:47:02 pm] Sam: This is a useful service ‎[4/10/23, 6:47:24 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[4/10/23, 6:47:30 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 6:47:37 pm] Sam: Wer jetzt noch lacht ‎[4/10/23, 6:47:47 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [4/10/23, 6:47:54 pm] Sam: Hat die neuesten nachrichten noch nicht gehort [4/10/23, 6:47:55 pm] Oli: Yes just going to have supper in moment then will attend [4/10/23, 6:47:59 pm] Oli: That is a good distraction [4/10/23, 6:48:04 pm] Sam: (Sp. maybe wrong) [4/10/23, 6:48:06 pm] Oli: Tonsured perv on messenger it seems [4/10/23, 6:48:08 pm] Sam: Thanks!!! [4/10/23, 6:48:09 pm] Oli: I do wonder [4/10/23, 6:49:25 pm] Sam: Anders Ek? What’s this? [4/10/23, 6:49:28 pm] Oli: Appears to be a tonsured Swede [4/10/23, 6:49:31 pm] Sam: Is he the Spotify guy? [4/10/23, 6:49:32 pm] Oli: Am laughing [4/10/23, 6:49:35 pm] Sam: What’s this talking about? [4/10/23, 6:49:38 pm] Oli: Don’t know! 🤣 [4/10/23, 6:49:40 pm] Sam: Someone messaging you? [4/10/23, 6:49:52 pm] Sam: Oh no he’s another Ek I think [4/10/23, 6:49:54 pm] Sam: (Daniel?) [4/10/23, 6:49:56 pm] Oli: Seems to be a tonsured Swede [4/10/23, 6:49:58 pm] Oli: Very amusing [4/10/23, 6:50:00 pm] Sam: This guy seems to be a Swedish actor [4/10/23, 6:50:08 pm] Sam: Presumably a Swedish name [4/10/23, 6:50:12 pm] Sam: But whence? [4/10/23, 6:50:24 pm] Sam: (Whence this story / this person, not the Swedish surname) [4/10/23, 6:50:30 pm] Oli: Ah yes so it is [4/10/23, 6:50:35 pm] Oli: Must have the same name as the actor [4/10/23, 6:50:45 pm] Oli: I suspect a random Swedish old bloke 🤣 [4/10/23, 6:50:54 pm] Oli: Lol [4/10/23, 6:51:03 pm] Oli: Just a few moments ago it all started! [4/10/23, 6:51:07 pm] Sam: Looked up Spotify guy and no mention of relation to actor, so maybe a common name [4/10/23, 6:51:19 pm] Oli: And this [4/10/23, 6:51:21 pm] Oli: Peculiar [4/10/23, 6:51:26 pm] Oli: Maybe old tonsures do message randomly [4/10/23, 6:52:33 pm] Sam: Yes it would seem so [4/10/23, 6:52:45 pm] Oli: Hilarious [4/10/23, 6:52:49 pm] Oli: That is the latest news! [4/10/23, 6:52:52 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 [4/10/23, 6:53:06 pm] Sam: Any other pointless frivolities? Maybe this can be the nature of our chat! [4/10/23, 6:53:19 pm] Sam: Like a sort of source of entropy [4/10/23, 6:53:30 pm] Sam: The same way Cloudflare uses lava lamps [4/10/23, 6:53:35 pm] Oli: Saw another tonsured man today! [4/10/23, 6:53:39 pm] Oli: In the distance! [4/10/23, 6:53:45 pm] Oli: Quite frivolous and pointless [4/10/23, 6:53:47 pm] Oli: 👴🏻 [4/10/23, 6:53:52 pm] Oli: Sort of like this ‎[4/10/23, 6:53:56 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 6:54:16 pm] Sam: Ah yes, I can imagine [4/10/23, 6:54:23 pm] Sam: Paints a mental picture [4/10/23, 6:54:29 pm] Oli: It’s a useful emoji [4/10/23, 6:54:34 pm] Sam: God this must be what it's like to have Canavan's disease! [4/10/23, 6:54:39 pm] Sam: Excellent! [4/10/23, 6:56:53 pm] Sam: See, there are ways you can put your life to use without necessarily needing to live them out and work and strive and think etc [4/10/23, 6:57:01 pm] Sam: I'm thinking a lot about this this afternoon [4/10/23, 6:57:19 pm] Sam: For people who have no other use, there must be lots of things like this [4/10/23, 6:57:28 pm] Sam: Consensually of course [4/10/23, 6:57:56 pm] Sam: For people who basically are drawn-out suicides [4/10/23, 6:57:58 pm] Sam: Like your friends [4/10/23, 6:58:28 pm] Sam: (Also the illegal ones, like mercy killings, could make use of homeless people who want into prison, or of old or other terminally ill people, etc) [4/10/23, 6:59:04 pm] Sam: I also wonder about implied consent [4/10/23, 6:59:15 pm] Oli: Raaaaaight [4/10/23, 6:59:16 pm] Sam: Could make a case that certain people have abjured their lives [4/10/23, 6:59:23 pm] Sam: Anyway [4/10/23, 6:59:25 pm] Sam: Good stuff! [4/10/23, 6:59:38 pm] Oli: I can see it working! ‎[4/10/23, 7:00:19 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [4/10/23, 7:00:24 pm] Oli: Mr Firsov on a train for example ‎[4/10/23, 7:00:24 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 7:00:46 pm] Sam: 'Humanely and economically disposed of' sounds like something I'd be very gratified to see happen to some people ‎[4/10/23, 7:01:12 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [4/10/23, 7:01:19 pm] Oli: These videos are some form of disease perhaps [4/10/23, 7:01:19 pm] Sam: I wouldn't be gratified to see it happen to Firsov but from what little I know of him I can't quite make a case for why it shouldn't ‎[4/10/23, 7:01:40 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [4/10/23, 7:01:46 pm] Oli: A normal self-identification in Rome [4/10/23, 7:01:56 pm] Oli: Hahaha [4/10/23, 7:02:22 pm] Sam: Several such others [4/10/23, 7:02:45 pm] Sam: Or perhaps we could put them to work turning a millstone, like draft horses [4/10/23, 7:02:53 pm] Sam: They could perhaps be given a choice ‎[4/10/23, 7:03:50 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [4/10/23, 7:04:55 pm] Sam: Or East Africa [4/10/23, 7:05:20 pm] Sam: Where the Nuer tribe traditionally consider such children to be baby hippopotamuses [4/10/23, 7:05:27 pm] Sam: And accordingly leave them in the river [4/10/23, 7:05:44 pm] Sam: A bit like Oedipus [4/10/23, 7:05:56 pm] Sam: (Your 12th cousin) [4/10/23, 7:06:34 pm] Oli: Yeaaaah moooite ‎[4/10/23, 7:06:36 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 7:06:52 pm] Oli: LOL [4/10/23, 7:06:56 pm] Oli: That close?! [4/10/23, 7:07:03 pm] Oli: 🎉 ‎[4/10/23, 7:08:19 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 7:08:23 pm] Oli: King Firsov! [4/10/23, 7:13:47 pm] Oli: There are many actuslly [4/10/23, 7:18:24 pm] Sam: Well, 12th and 14th and 7th 1ce removed [4/10/23, 7:21:06 pm] Sam: On account of cousin Archaea’s marrying Jasper of the Gloucestershire Derbesia clan [4/10/23, 7:24:32 pm] Oli: Yeaaaaaah [4/10/23, 7:24:38 pm] Sam: The Derbesia family of course have done rather well ever since the Sturtian glaciation ‎[4/10/23, 7:24:41 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[4/10/23, 7:24:48 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 7:25:24 pm] Sam: Though cousin Activia has some social clout from her ‘dollar duchess’ marriage into the old Cyanobacteria family [4/10/23, 7:25:32 pm] Sam: Etc etc [4/10/23, 7:26:48 pm] Sam: Sorry, I’ll be a better conversationalist once I’ve carried out an autoleucotomy with an unsanitised corkscrew ‎[4/10/23, 7:27:19 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[4/10/23, 7:27:24 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[4/10/23, 7:27:26 pm] Sam: ‎sticker omitted ‎[4/10/23, 7:27:30 pm] Sam: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 7:27:42 pm] Sam: Goals [4/10/23, 7:27:44 pm] Oli: Hilarious ‎[4/10/23, 7:27:52 pm] Sam: ‎sticker omitted ‎[4/10/23, 7:27:52 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[4/10/23, 7:27:59 pm] Sam: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 7:27:59 pm] Oli: Bloody good idea ‎[4/10/23, 7:28:03 pm] Sam: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 7:28:06 pm] Oli: Can give you some numbers for that if ya want ‎[4/10/23, 7:28:09 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 7:28:15 pm] Sam: Auto! [4/10/23, 7:28:24 pm] Oli: Ah quite [4/10/23, 7:28:25 pm] Oli: Good idea [4/10/23, 7:28:27 pm] Oli: Clever boy [4/10/23, 7:28:43 pm] Sam: 👨🏼‍🔧 [4/10/23, 7:30:03 pm] Oli: Fixing it! [4/10/23, 7:30:12 pm] Oli: Haha you have these too [4/10/23, 7:32:57 pm] Sam: I don’t seem to have many ‎[4/10/23, 7:33:01 pm] Sam: ‎sticker omitted ‎[4/10/23, 7:33:03 pm] Sam: ‎sticker omitted ‎[4/10/23, 7:33:06 pm] Sam: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 7:33:10 pm] Oli: Kingsley seems alright. Your extended family also seem to be normal people. So you have a base there. [4/10/23, 7:33:20 pm] Oli: Someone telling me about the normal people I seem to know [4/10/23, 7:33:22 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 [4/10/23, 7:33:25 pm] Oli: That’s not very many [4/10/23, 7:33:28 pm] Oli: And doesn’t seem right [4/10/23, 7:33:32 pm] Sam: How’s this person’s recovery? Any postoperative complications? [4/10/23, 7:33:34 pm] Oli: I am joking [4/10/23, 7:33:37 pm] Oli: LOL [4/10/23, 7:33:40 pm] Oli: Many it seems [4/10/23, 7:33:44 pm] Sam: How’s the corkscrew? ‎[4/10/23, 7:33:56 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 7:33:58 pm] Sam: Well one has to compare with the baseline [4/10/23, 7:34:02 pm] Sam: When you hear hooves… ‎[4/10/23, 7:34:08 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[4/10/23, 7:34:21 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 7:34:25 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [4/10/23, 7:35:08 pm] Oli: They’re quite fun! [4/10/23, 7:35:17 pm] Oli: Haha [4/10/23, 7:35:30 pm] Oli: How is it coming along? [4/10/23, 7:38:49 pm] Sam: Not badly! I find myself able to think about genealogy! [4/10/23, 7:39:25 pm] Sam: What did you mean when you said that my WhatsApp chats shed light on _several_ things about me, by the way? [4/10/23, 7:39:31 pm] Sam: I’m quite curious about this [4/10/23, 7:39:44 pm] Sam: (Huh I guess I do partly trust or take some interest in your insights!) ‎[4/10/23, 7:59:24 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 7:59:24 pm] Oli: Playing Shakespearean fool at my Exeter flat last summer [4/10/23, 7:59:28 pm] Oli: LOL [4/10/23, 7:59:37 pm] Oli: Hang on just finishing supper then shall properly reply ‎[4/10/23, 7:59:48 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 8:00:04 pm] Oli: Made some weird green cocktails. I must’ve done the auto procedure then [4/10/23, 8:00:29 pm] Oli: Oh we went to the cathedral green after and nearly got mugged [4/10/23, 8:00:31 pm] Oli: Was fun time ‎[4/10/23, 8:01:51 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [4/10/23, 8:02:02 pm] Oli: This more up your street. Anti-woke nonsense [4/10/23, 8:04:07 pm] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [4/10/23, 8:04:07 pm] Oli: YEAHHHHHHHHHH MOIIIIITE [4/10/23, 8:04:07 pm] Oli: That looks like a civilised Holland Hall party. No idiot Blairites smoking weed and shitting themselves. [4/10/23, 8:04:25 pm] Oli: (Just sent that to some other Exeter people in reminiscence. Seems it was a funny crowd of people…) [4/10/23, 8:04:33 pm] Oli: They have all undergone the auto procedure you describe! [4/10/23, 8:05:05 pm] Oli: Did you have similar university days? 🤣 [4/10/23, 8:13:58 pm] Oli: You're cured! Bloody hell! [4/10/23, 8:14:31 pm] Oli: Oh several. Hmm did I say that? I meant, for a start at least, that it was interesting to be shown a private/personal element of your personality viz. paedophilia etc and how that's manifest for you. [4/10/23, 8:14:44 pm] Oli: I am quite psychologically interested in such things. Not sure why. [4/10/23, 8:15:36 pm] Oli: I must confess that I haven't finished properly reading the chats but I must do. Maybe tonight. I actually greatly enjoy them. Like a sort of real diary. If they weren't so controversial they should be published as a diary posthumously (maybe they still can) for interest. [4/10/23, 8:16:18 pm] Oli: I also like how the chat log (the first one I mean) is not solely, actually far from it, a dirty chat (there's a bit of sex in it but that's what that is) but a view into your mind/politics/worldview/weltanschuang slightly. [4/10/23, 8:16:51 pm] Oli: This sounds appalling jesus. I don't mean it like that. Fuck. But whatever. I wonder who will stumble upon these chats one day. Some GCHQ chap or someone! 🤣 [4/10/23, 8:17:17 pm] Oli: Yes I must carry on with my reading properly and work it out though it is actually of great interest to me! [4/10/23, 9:29:18 pm] Sam: Sorry, will read and reply presently! [4/10/23, 9:30:03 pm] Sam: Likewise! ‎[4/10/23, 9:30:22 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [4/10/23, 9:30:31 pm] Oli: Me remixed [4/10/23, 9:30:38 pm] Oli: It’s a good audio to send people 🤣 [4/10/23, 9:30:48 pm] Sam: 😅 I like this catty side of you [4/10/23, 9:30:52 pm] Oli: Some madman did many of them do me 🤣 [4/10/23, 9:30:56 pm] Oli: Raaaaaight ‎[4/10/23, 9:31:22 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 9:31:34 pm] Sam: I don’t know if this is some masochistic thing – I don’t think it really exactly is, and if I’m honest (which I am) I think it more comes from security than from self-hatred – but I quite enjoy being insulted [4/10/23, 9:31:49 pm] Sam: Well, when it’s in a witty and not entirely hateful way [4/10/23, 9:31:50 pm] Oli: It is good [4/10/23, 9:31:57 pm] Oli: Bad to take ourselves too seriously [4/10/23, 9:32:08 pm] Sam: Something I like less about Totalerkrieg somehow [4/10/23, 9:32:28 pm] Oli: Totally [4/10/23, 9:32:30 pm] Oli: 🤣 [4/10/23, 9:32:33 pm] Sam: Sorry, one sec, taking bastard passport photos! [4/10/23, 9:32:53 pm] Oli: Didn’t realise you could do it at home ‎[4/10/23, 10:11:49 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 10:21:13 pm] Oli: Good passport photo! 🤣 [4/10/23, 11:06:59 pm] Sam: Ok sorry, finally myself replying to your messages - thanks v much for answering properly and apolz for my tardiness (and lateness) [4/10/23, 11:07:47 pm] Sam: Ah yes it would have been unsanitary to open the wine [4/10/23, 11:08:16 pm] Sam: I assume this is some Devon thing [4/10/23, 11:10:06 pm] Sam: The Cathedral Green I mean, not mugging - though I hear some parts of the Proboscis Counties are blighted by poverty [4/10/23, 11:10:45 pm] Sam: (Although they may well have been like that when poverty found them) [4/10/23, 11:11:43 pm] Sam: That is uncharacteristically somewhat witty! [4/10/23, 11:12:15 pm] Sam: r/stupidpol is more my speed [brief diversion to follow] ‎[4/10/23, 11:15:21 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 11:15:55 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 11:16:52 pm] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. ‎[4/10/23, 11:17:21 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 11:18:41 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 11:20:03 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 11:20:08 pm] Oli: Yes! [4/10/23, 11:20:29 pm] Oli: Uncharacteristically! [4/10/23, 11:20:43 pm] Oli: Haha [4/10/23, 11:21:49 pm] Oli: LOL [4/10/23, 11:22:29 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 ‎[4/10/23, 11:22:53 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 11:22:58 pm] Sam: Ok enough for now lol [4/10/23, 11:23:00 pm] Oli: Goodness that is a very fun Reddit! ‎[4/10/23, 11:23:29 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[4/10/23, 11:24:10 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 11:24:18 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 11:24:32 pm] Oli: Someone made these [4/10/23, 11:24:37 pm] Oli: I like memes actuslly [4/10/23, 11:24:48 pm] Sam: This strikes me as a rather odd and particular fantasy [4/10/23, 11:25:11 pm] Oli: According to this chap the denizens of Holland Hall (snobby accom in Exeter) were faux proles [4/10/23, 11:25:14 pm] Oli: Wait he has mad stories [4/10/23, 11:26:36 pm] Sam: From Eton? Is anyone from Eton? Also obviously you want the first Uncle Monty scene from Withnail where he lies that whatshisname went to Eton [4/10/23, 11:26:52 pm] Oli: Lol yes firsov does that as a comedy sketch ‎[4/10/23, 11:27:04 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 11:27:04 pm] Sam: Sorry, does this mean that they were or weren’t proles?? ‎[4/10/23, 11:27:08 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 11:27:12 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 11:27:17 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[4/10/23, 11:27:21 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 11:27:24 pm] Oli: Weren’t! [4/10/23, 11:27:37 pm] Oli: I never met them but thibk they were in a specific block! [4/10/23, 11:27:39 pm] Oli: Think [4/10/23, 11:27:47 pm] Oli: To some extent they are just university students 🤣🤣 [4/10/23, 11:28:12 pm] Sam: If they mean six figure salaries, fucking everyone makes a six figure salary, at least anyone middle aged and able to have kids and keep them alive for the best or worst part of two decades [4/10/23, 11:28:32 pm] Sam: Just a slightly weird alloboast [4/10/23, 11:28:51 pm] Oli: Yes to some extent it’s a weird observation [4/10/23, 11:29:02 pm] Sam: Duke of Norfolk lives in Sussex if I recall my Freddie trivia correctly [4/10/23, 11:29:10 pm] Oli: It makes me laugh. Maybe he didn’t get on with the people for other reasons [4/10/23, 11:29:24 pm] Oli: But I can relate in some ways. Lots of students like they [4/10/23, 11:29:26 pm] Oli: That* [4/10/23, 11:29:32 pm] Sam: The Cokes (loose fam friends or at least gparent friends) are the Dukes of Leicester or summat like that he said [4/10/23, 11:29:33 pm] Oli: It’s a funny old dumping ground for people [4/10/23, 11:29:43 pm] Oli: ❄️ [4/10/23, 11:29:43 pm] Sam: I forget - but the Lords of Holkham I mean [4/10/23, 11:29:50 pm] Oli: Tonsured coke [4/10/23, 11:29:58 pm] Sam: Oh I wasn’t even thinking of that, hahaha [4/10/23, 11:30:11 pm] Oli: Yes it’s famous! I never went there but it’s a nice place to go ‎[4/10/23, 11:30:23 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 11:30:32 pm] Sam: Wait what’s famous? Sussex? Norfolk? [4/10/23, 11:30:45 pm] Oli: The other stuff I found funnier. Some of the people sounded genuinely psychologically messed up! [4/10/23, 11:30:50 pm] Oli: Arundel castle [4/10/23, 11:30:58 pm] Oli: Herzog v. Norfolk’s [4/10/23, 11:30:59 pm] Sam: Conspires to prove [4/10/23, 11:31:11 pm] Oli: Well in history and to tourists [4/10/23, 11:31:13 pm] Sam: Our almost instinct almost tree [4/10/23, 11:31:16 pm] Sam: True dammit [4/10/23, 11:31:21 pm] Oli: Met an American on Gatwick train who said she was going there 🤣 [4/10/23, 11:31:23 pm] Sam: What will survive of us is love [4/10/23, 11:31:28 pm] Sam: Etc etc [4/10/23, 11:31:40 pm] Sam: (Well, not etc, really, I guess, since that’s the last line, but ykwim) [4/10/23, 11:31:52 pm] Sam: What? [4/10/23, 11:32:02 pm] Sam: Only to there, specifically, from the US? [4/10/23, 11:32:05 pm] Sam: Fucking Americans [4/10/23, 11:32:23 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 [4/10/23, 11:32:36 pm] Oli: Not quite but near enough [4/10/23, 11:34:09 pm] Sam: ‘Conspires’ is totally wrong - I think my unconscious mixed in a line from Auden’s 1939 poem because of the similar saccharine endings [4/10/23, 11:34:24 pm] Sam: God I’m doing the Freud thing aren’t I [4/10/23, 11:34:37 pm] Sam: Exoriare aliquis nostris ex ossibus ultor [4/10/23, 11:34:49 pm] Sam: Aliquis -> ??? -> pregnant ‎[4/10/23, 11:34:53 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 11:34:57 pm] Sam: Psychopathology of Everyday Life ‎[4/10/23, 11:34:58 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 11:35:01 pm] Sam: Really showing my parentage here [4/10/23, 11:35:14 pm] Sam: Anyway, on with the show! [4/10/23, 11:35:21 pm] Sam: 👀📖 [4/10/23, 11:35:38 pm] Sam: No ‎[4/10/23, 11:35:53 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [4/10/23, 11:35:58 pm] Sam: Cured and smoked! [4/10/23, 11:36:05 pm] Oli: Yeaaaaah moooooite [4/10/23, 11:36:09 pm] Oli: That’s a good idea isn’t it [4/10/23, 11:39:44 pm] Sam: Quick prolegomenon, meant not in the spirit of onomastic exculpation: it is technically ephebophilia and not paedophilia sensu stricto. Of course do call it what you will but I wanted to clarify that I’m not attracted to prepubescent children! [4/10/23, 11:39:59 pm] Sam: (I’m kidding whenever I use the silly words) [4/10/23, 11:40:44 pm] Sam: Ah yes, like Roger Casement’s diaries, which were the inspiration for Raz’s infamous Excel sheet of hookups! [4/10/23, 11:40:47 pm] Oli: Maybe a oederast! [4/10/23, 11:40:50 pm] Oli: Pederast [4/10/23, 11:40:56 pm] Oli: Start of 1916 [4/10/23, 11:40:59 pm] Oli: After his Himmlering [4/10/23, 11:41:01 pm] Oli: Ah yes [4/10/23, 11:43:07 pm] Sam: Much better term imo - why philia is used is beyond me. And eros comes with all the richness of what Plato says in the Symposium - Plato’s defence of what we now call pederasty basically. Much like Oscar Wilde is sanitised into a generic rainbow gay (he was a pederast—they were tweens, teens at the oldest). [4/10/23, 11:44:29 pm] Sam: Also the weird English spelling mystifies me. It should be _paidophile_ if anything (_pais_ in gen. sg.). Recall the line from Homer I was talking about in the Slape chat, re Rupert: _amphi [de] paidi philo…_ ‎[4/10/23, 11:44:39 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [4/10/23, 11:44:47 pm] Oli: Yes there are differences! [4/10/23, 11:44:53 pm] Oli: Paedophilia is more specific [4/10/23, 11:44:59 pm] Oli: Goodness not sure why I didn’t clock earlier [4/10/23, 11:45:05 pm] Oli: You’re a pederast not a paedo [4/10/23, 11:45:09 pm] Oli: That makes sense! [4/10/23, 11:45:13 pm] Oli: Hmm [4/10/23, 11:45:17 pm] Oli: Somehow it is more explainable [4/10/23, 11:45:20 pm] Oli: More normal [4/10/23, 11:45:23 pm] Oli: More classical [4/10/23, 11:46:14 pm] Sam: Haha, that’s every chat I have. Both Gray and Cayden definitely. I actually would be totally happy to publish all this epistolary matter, provided I were immune from prosecution. They both are sweet human beings. I think it shows the rules to be preposterous. ‎[4/10/23, 11:47:52 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/10/23, 11:50:07 pm] Sam: Wait, what sounds appalling? Paedophilia? I really don’t think so, though obviously I have to make some provision for the prevailing mores… [4/10/23, 11:51:05 pm] Oli: I mean to most people [4/10/23, 11:51:13 pm] Oli: Well maybe pederast y sounds appalling to most people too [4/10/23, 11:51:22 pm] Oli: But for some reason it seems to be different [4/10/23, 11:51:23 pm] Oli: Odd [4/10/23, 11:52:27 pm] Oli: Ok well I think you are UMC his response LOL [4/10/23, 11:52:36 pm] Oli: that’s an hilarious response just to that [4/10/23, 11:52:49 pm] Oli: Maybe there’s more I’ve forgotten must read my Sam book again! [4/10/23, 11:52:53 pm] Sam: I think exploiting anyone, treating them purely as a means and not an end, is abhorrent to me. Really it boils down to: it would never gratify me to cause someone to suffer except in the most minor transitory way and by their consent. But the idea that there’s a magical line at 16 years old … well, put it this way, I know plenty of people who go for kids over 16 who are far more arguably unable to consent (eg Mikey) than these kids are. I wouldn’t. [4/10/23, 11:52:58 pm] Oli: It is very interesting and entertaining I must say. [4/10/23, 11:53:01 pm] Oli: Particularly the first [4/10/23, 11:53:52 pm] Oli: Hilarious first and last messages [4/10/23, 11:54:00 pm] Oli: He actually seems quite odd with that. He plays along with it and then doesn’t [4/10/23, 11:54:05 pm] Sam: It sounds more sophisticated perhaps! But Wilde and Gide were having sex with 12 year old prostitutes in Tangier. Keynes wrote in his diary about “Morocco, where bed and boy are cheap”. It was the same thing as Gary Glitter etc. And in some cases it may have been fine. [4/10/23, 11:55:22 pm] Sam: Hell, the age of consent in England was 12 (i.e. marriageable age) from time immemorial up to the 1870s or 1880s. Then to 13 and 16 in short order thereafter. This fiction that eg 14 year olds can’t consent to sex is a recent invention. [4/10/23, 11:57:25 pm] Sam: (Though I think there’s some truth to the idea that maturity _is_ mutable and depends on the culture. My grandma walked across Germany at 12 while looking after her younger siblings (Red Army, chaos in Prussia-now-Poland, etc). Very few 12 year olds now would be capable of that (which is good). And you want a margin of error. But the line is drawn very very high, well above most people’s point of maturation.) [4/10/23, 11:57:51 pm] Sam: Anyway, I’m happy to break the law, but I’m just speaking on behalf of other less PR-friendly UMC paedophiles! [4/10/23, 11:59:07 pm] Sam: I mean, do you think you were incapable of consenting to sex at 15 years old? How about your friends? I think for some boarding school people the line is higher, or others who are socially retarded for other reasons, but seldom _that_ high. [4/10/23, 11:59:55 pm] Oli: Others will fill our places, Wanking and passing out, Parking with happy faces, Sending kids into rout. ‎[4/10/23, 11:59:58 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[5/10/23, 12:00:07 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[5/10/23, 12:00:13 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[5/10/23, 12:00:32 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [5/10/23, 12:00:35 am] Oli: Madness [5/10/23, 12:01:21 am] Oli: Right! [5/10/23, 12:01:31 am] Sam: Think he perhaps liked the vitalism and general aesthetic vibe but not the actual political and economic programme? I get that to an extent, tho I think the economics aren’t all that bad. [5/10/23, 12:01:36 am] Oli: Didn’t know about Wilde but wouldn’t surprise me [5/10/23, 12:02:54 am] Sam: Is this what you sing so the doctor knows when to stop pushing the scalpel? [5/10/23, 12:02:58 am] Oli: Yes it may have even been younger I wonder [5/10/23, 12:03:08 am] Oli: Oh there’s a better one for that ‎[5/10/23, 12:03:59 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 12:04:05 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [5/10/23, 12:04:45 am] Oli: YEAAAAAAH [5/10/23, 12:04:50 am] Oli: scalpel stop [5/10/23, 12:05:11 am] Sam: In your case perhaps he’s pulling the scalpel out! [5/10/23, 12:05:25 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [5/10/23, 12:06:08 am] Sam: I don’t think it was ever younger - I mean in periods of history that don’t end with ‘lithic’ - but idk ‎[5/10/23, 12:06:08 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [5/10/23, 12:06:14 am] Oli: Like the Egyptians [5/10/23, 12:06:25 am] Sam: Ah yes, the nose thing [5/10/23, 12:06:57 am] Sam: I think most of your white matter is coke anyway [5/10/23, 12:07:04 am] Oli: Yeaaaah moooite ‎[5/10/23, 12:07:11 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[5/10/23, 12:07:25 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[5/10/23, 12:07:32 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [5/10/23, 12:07:35 am] Sam: Are you drinking with the other NICU grads then? [5/10/23, 12:07:41 am] Oli: LOL [5/10/23, 12:07:51 am] Oli: Packet and chill MOOOITE [5/10/23, 12:07:55 am] Oli: not yet [5/10/23, 12:07:58 am] Oli: Am free this evening [5/10/23, 12:08:04 am] Oli: Still on exmoor [5/10/23, 12:08:06 am] Oli: Int countryside [5/10/23, 12:08:35 am] Oli: ❄️ [5/10/23, 12:08:46 am] Oli: Oh yes OK [5/10/23, 12:08:54 am] Oli: Interesting [5/10/23, 12:09:13 am] Oli: Of which there may be a few! [5/10/23, 12:10:07 am] Oli: Good point [5/10/23, 12:10:32 am] Oli: I think just about mentally aware and capable to an extent [5/10/23, 12:10:58 am] Oli: For some friends earlier and for others later [5/10/23, 12:11:45 am] Oli: He did seem quite aggressive at points but that might just be my interpretation [5/10/23, 12:12:35 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [5/10/23, 12:13:17 am] Oli: What does NICU stand for again? I am laughing as I’m sure it’s something to do with what we’ve discussed re auto lobotomy [5/10/23, 12:13:24 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [5/10/23, 12:21:05 am] Sam: Really? What was the median? [5/10/23, 12:21:52 am] Sam: He had teeth but I like that - honestly I like being able to trust that someone can say ‘no’ and can hold their own 😌 [5/10/23, 12:25:13 am] Oli: I’d have to think haha [5/10/23, 12:25:24 am] Oli: Maybe somewhere in between [5/10/23, 12:25:28 am] Oli: LOL at that answer [5/10/23, 12:25:30 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 ‎[5/10/23, 12:26:21 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 12:27:34 am] Sam: (I can send you Ryan probably - I don’t think he’d mind - but there are probably thoughts about you from more recently, none of which are seriously bad but you never know what might be hurtful… There’s something different about reading two other people’s private messages about oneself, it feels more ‘true’ somehow) [5/10/23, 12:28:11 am] Sam: Neonatal ICU (intensive care unit), as in for birth defects [5/10/23, 12:28:40 am] Sam: Also stands for neuro ICU, which my friend Alan (Gide’s biographer, among other things) graduated from [5/10/23, 12:29:49 am] Oli: Hmm’ interesting ‎[5/10/23, 12:29:50 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 12:29:59 am] Oli: Lol I would like to write a book of these [5/10/23, 12:30:08 am] Sam: Ah dammit it was renamed by KCH - oh well, basically neuro ICU [5/10/23, 12:30:48 am] Oli: I see what you mean about two people views. Yes. It certainly feels a true perception, based on reasons, of someone at a time. [5/10/23, 12:30:58 am] Oli: Gosh you’ve done it to others [5/10/23, 12:31:01 am] Oli: Haha [5/10/23, 12:31:59 am] Sam: Be my guest! Haha, I love reading through my old messages - the one thing that I find beautiful and worthwhile in life is all the sweet, kind, wonderful people I’ve bumped into along the way [5/10/23, 12:32:19 am] Oli: The problem is people would ask me about some of them LOL. [5/10/23, 12:32:31 am] Oli: Oh yes. [5/10/23, 12:32:57 am] Oli: Damien and Alex LOL [5/10/23, 12:33:06 am] Oli: I like Alex but Alex seems to need guidance as well on some levels. [5/10/23, 12:33:24 am] Oli: After someone goes to such lengths to disavow themselves of/from someone and then just falls back into it... [5/10/23, 12:33:32 am] Oli: It does beg a few questions doesn't it. [5/10/23, 12:33:45 am] Oli: Who knows! ‎[5/10/23, 12:34:16 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 12:34:13 am] Oli: Those messages with Ryan are how he first met you? [5/10/23, 12:34:17 am] Oli: Or when he first met you? [5/10/23, 12:34:22 am] Oli: And discuss his situation too? [5/10/23, 12:34:55 am] Sam: Which messages with Ryan? [5/10/23, 12:36:46 am] Oli: Or maybe it was Grindr? [5/10/23, 12:36:49 am] Oli: Any. [5/10/23, 12:37:03 am] Oli: Why did you stop heroin? [5/10/23, 12:37:11 am] Oli: You didn't think it was practical anymore? [5/10/23, 12:37:25 am] Oli: Probably quite rightly! ‎[5/10/23, 12:41:04 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 12:42:26 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 12:42:57 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 12:42:57 am] Oli: Wow ‎[5/10/23, 12:43:37 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 12:44:07 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 12:45:45 am] Sam: You can have the chat if you want - but promise you won’t send it to anyone else, or send anything without asking me, unless it’s only my messages and nothing private to Ryan… I think anything private to us we mostly discussed in person, and he knows what I’m like. And you do too, so delete those child abuse messages! [5/10/23, 12:46:04 am] Sam: (Sorry, I mean the stuff about your mum. My child abuse is fine, lol, and you can’t delete that anyway!) [5/10/23, 12:46:29 am] Sam: (I’m kidding about child abuse, I’d never want to do anything that could be justly characterised that way) [5/10/23, 12:47:13 am] Sam: Sorry, the one bad thing about transparency is that I’m constantly threading the needle of other people’s possible expectations of privacy [5/10/23, 12:48:17 am] Oli: Eventful! [5/10/23, 12:49:24 am] Oli: Oh I won’t send it to anyone else. No reason for me to. [5/10/23, 12:49:43 am] Sam: I really really want to emphasise (and he’ll emphasise this too if you ask) that I never ever ever so much as said an untoward word to him, and the thought of sleeping with anyone in that position - even if they were throwing themselves at me - makes me sick [5/10/23, 12:50:10 am] Oli: Lol it must be hard actually 🤣 [5/10/23, 12:50:33 am] Sam: I saw that with Jamison, I saw him pretending to think people like Kieran Stephenson were really attracted to his leathery homunculus body and weren’t just trying to survive in the only way they knew how [5/10/23, 12:50:39 am] Sam: Anyway one sec [5/10/23, 12:50:46 am] Oli: OH GOD ‎[5/10/23, 12:50:53 am] Sam: WhatsApp Chat - Ryan.zip ‎document omitted [5/10/23, 12:50:50 am] Oli: Kieran Stephenson yes [5/10/23, 12:50:53 am] Oli: That brings back memories [5/10/23, 12:51:00 am] Oli: He was ages ago [5/10/23, 12:51:03 am] Oli: Is he still around [5/10/23, 12:51:10 am] Sam: I hope [5/10/23, 12:51:13 am] Sam: I don’t know [5/10/23, 12:51:22 am] Oli: Yes I shall not send to anyone [5/10/23, 12:51:26 am] Sam: I remember writing him a letter [5/10/23, 12:51:29 am] Sam: Quoting Pound [5/10/23, 12:51:39 am] Sam: “Go like a blight upon the dullness of the world” [5/10/23, 12:51:49 am] Sam: I hope he did [5/10/23, 12:51:53 am] Sam: He got out of there at least [5/10/23, 12:51:57 am] Sam: Poor kid ‎[5/10/23, 12:53:10 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 12:54:08 am] Oli: Ah yes Lester not Seaton! [5/10/23, 12:55:00 am] Sam: Haha yes [5/10/23, 12:55:04 am] Sam: But no I don’t know [5/10/23, 12:56:00 am] Sam: I suppose the one thing I’m sensitive about - and want to be sensitive about (at least to most sensible people’s considered opinions) - is that I’m not a Pharisee and not a creep [5/10/23, 12:56:13 am] Sam: Lunatic I don’t mind at all and looking at the world I generally consider it a compliment [5/10/23, 12:57:13 am] Sam: Not eg Jamison’s opinions, I’m not fussed about those - I’ve been called worse things by better people [5/10/23, 12:57:32 am] Oli: Yes people can easily make the wrong judgements on these matters I think. [5/10/23, 12:57:45 am] Sam: This is why I like transparency [5/10/23, 12:58:06 am] Sam: Holds me to some standards, and _hopefully_ I pass [5/10/23, 12:58:30 am] Sam: and obv I can consider any differing opinions - I don’t have to agree with people but sometimes they make good points [5/10/23, 12:58:48 am] Sam: Anyway so that’s me [5/10/23, 12:59:41 am] Sam: If you think I’m causing needless suffering, please text STOP to 50533 [5/10/23, 12:59:51 am] Oli: What does 50533 do?! [5/10/23, 1:00:07 am] Sam: Nothing, lol, I’m joking - but text it to me at least! [5/10/23, 1:01:26 am] Oli: I am joking too! [5/10/23, 1:01:28 am] Oli: LOL [5/10/23, 1:01:45 am] Sam: Haha sorry, I wasn’t sure! [5/10/23, 1:01:55 am] Sam: So why were you hitting on me? [5/10/23, 1:02:03 am] Sam: Or I think I hit on you [5/10/23, 1:02:24 am] Sam: But … ok well what do you want, I suppose that’s the real question [5/10/23, 1:03:24 am] Oli: Oh god! [5/10/23, 1:03:25 am] Oli: Hmm. [5/10/23, 1:03:29 am] Sam: (Sorry about that - I didn’t realise you had a boyfriend, and not to say I’m always 1000% scrupulous about this stuff but I don’t want to hurt someone who seems like a good soul… to kill a mockingbird and all that) [5/10/23, 1:03:30 am] Oli: Haha [5/10/23, 1:03:42 am] Oli: Yes I was surprised when you did! [5/10/23, 1:03:46 am] Oli: I am not sure it was hitting! [5/10/23, 1:03:49 am] Oli: Well. [5/10/23, 1:04:01 am] Oli: You must've been bored as you basically said! [5/10/23, 1:04:05 am] Oli: 🤣 [5/10/23, 1:04:48 am] Oli: Yes I must think this out too. [5/10/23, 1:04:56 am] Sam: Sorry, wasn’t trying to do the ‘long stare’ thing, just smoking meth [5/10/23, 1:05:24 am] Sam: In my defence, first time today! (Well, this ‘real’ day, ykwim) [5/10/23, 1:05:28 am] Sam: One sec [5/10/23, 1:05:43 am] Oli: It varies from just a form of contact (which we can do) to a bit more on some levels. [5/10/23, 1:06:53 am] Sam: Wait what do you mean? Are you talking about Xander or me? [5/10/23, 1:10:57 am] Oli: I was cleaning teeth [5/10/23, 1:11:05 am] Oli: Oh lol about you! [5/10/23, 1:11:06 am] Oli: Haha [5/10/23, 1:11:10 am] Oli: I must seem odd [5/10/23, 1:12:30 am] Sam: Oh you mean what you want from me? This isn’t like a major crush is it? Not, like, a ‘me over cancer’ thing? (Not saying this out of any personal arrogance, or with any considerations at all of our respective desirability - god knows about either - but just knowing how these things can happen any time and to anyone) [5/10/23, 1:12:38 am] Sam: Xander, not cancer (!) [5/10/23, 1:16:25 am] Sam: Because I can tell you truly and sincerely that you would be mad, absolutely stark raving mad, to do anything like that. I promise promise promise. Look at our fucking chat! I think in some ways your character conduces to arguments, as does mine, and we disagree on fundamental things, and it would be a short squalid tale and you would regret losing him for the rest of your life. Trust me. I know of which I speak. ☝🏼 [5/10/23, 1:16:57 am] Sam: Or maybe I’m mad. I’m saying this because of the severity of that possibility, not its likelihood! [5/10/23, 1:18:23 am] Sam: I suspect you are like me, in that… wait a mo ‎[5/10/23, 1:23:26 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 1:24:06 am] Sam: (Ignore highlight, I’m copying from a screenshot I sent to Ryan bc iMessage search is a dumpster fire) [5/10/23, 1:29:02 am] Oli: Oh yes I don't think it's a case of you over him. I am not viewing things like that haha or trying to get rid of him. It's not a I MUST HAVE YOU thing at all. I am just thinking moreso funny friends on a funny level. LOL [5/10/23, 1:29:21 am] Oli: I don't know if that even works anymore. But we have had amusing (for me anyway) chats the last 24 hours. [5/10/23, 1:29:46 am] Sam: You like me because I’m vaguely mysterious and different and maybe because I seem smart (I’m good at doing that) but really I’m not suited to relationships, I’m not that interesting, I have radically different views from most of the world which you won’t reconcile yourself to and which I won’t give up or conceal, and I have the same exact dissatisfied depressive narcissistic need for greener grass [5/10/23, 1:30:01 am] Sam: I’m saying this as a prophylactic, lol [5/10/23, 1:30:08 am] Sam: Not implying it’s needed [5/10/23, 1:30:12 am] Oli: Yes I think it's about right. I like it though lol [5/10/23, 1:30:19 am] Sam: Which fuck knows, and even fuck can’t be sure [5/10/23, 1:30:51 am] Sam: Well, don’t, ever, because … I’m not going to say you’re perfect for each other, but you’re damn well lucky to have him, haha [5/10/23, 1:31:19 am] Sam: (Don’t take that bit too seriously, sorry - what do I know? But do treasure him) [5/10/23, 1:31:28 am] Sam: Ok ok ok enough [5/10/23, 1:31:30 am] Sam: Sorry [5/10/23, 1:31:43 am] Sam: For some reason I feel very very protective over people like that [5/10/23, 1:31:52 am] Sam: Beauty will save the world, after all [5/10/23, 1:32:04 am] Sam: Or redeem it [5/10/23, 1:32:20 am] Sam: So how long have you guys been going out? And why are you frustrated with him? [5/10/23, 1:32:25 am] Sam: And why the fuck Timmy? [5/10/23, 1:32:37 am] Sam: That’s a Homeric epithet [5/10/23, 1:32:47 am] Oli: LOL [5/10/23, 1:32:51 am] Sam: Ho oinops pontos etc [5/10/23, 1:32:53 am] Oli: We are mad! [5/10/23, 1:33:28 am] Sam: You and Xander? You and me? You and Timmy? [5/10/23, 1:33:30 am] Sam: All of us? [5/10/23, 1:33:50 am] Oli: Maybe around two years. I am not quite sure. It has been something since summer of 2021! I don't quite know how it even started. [5/10/23, 1:33:56 am] Oli: All! [5/10/23, 1:33:59 am] Sam: I don’t know if he filled his ears with wax or what, but Xander seems to have got out of there ok [5/10/23, 1:34:05 am] Oli: Or me and Timmy. [5/10/23, 1:34:21 am] Oli: He is very focused! [5/10/23, 1:34:36 am] Sam: I think maybe I identify with him more than you, haha [5/10/23, 1:34:40 am] Sam: Especially the walks! [5/10/23, 1:34:45 am] Sam: And the solitude [5/10/23, 1:35:02 am] Sam: Maybe I should be hitting on him [5/10/23, 1:35:06 am] Oli: I'm not really frustrated with him but he just annoys me sometimes. But everyone annoys everyone! [5/10/23, 1:35:10 am] Sam: We can both go on walks alone at the same time! [5/10/23, 1:35:20 am] Sam: How so? [5/10/23, 1:35:21 am] Oli: Hahaha. That's a good concept. [5/10/23, 1:35:49 am] Sam: Think maybe my best use to you is as a marriage counsellor, haha [5/10/23, 1:36:04 am] Sam: For xander’s sake [5/10/23, 1:36:13 am] Oli: If I don't want to go to so and so's party because I want to do something else or if I am not interested in watching a TV show. [5/10/23, 1:36:15 am] Sam: Aw, sweet nice Xander [5/10/23, 1:36:22 am] Sam: Sorry to take sides!!! lol [5/10/23, 1:36:28 am] Sam: 😇 [5/10/23, 1:36:51 am] Sam: God the TV thing is such a modern ailment [5/10/23, 1:36:54 am] Oli: He also goes on about watching varying football/cricket/tennis matches... [5/10/23, 1:36:57 am] Oli: Madness! [5/10/23, 1:37:13 am] Sam: Best thing in the world: making someone else watch your favourite show Worst thing in the world: watching someone else’s favourite show [5/10/23, 1:37:38 am] Sam: Ok that’s not really my thing but still, sweet [5/10/23, 1:37:44 am] Sam: Asperger’s? [5/10/23, 1:37:53 am] Sam: Undiagnosed sporty Asperger’s? [5/10/23, 1:39:36 am] Oli: I have the problem with anyone when the TV is on! My grandpa is obsessed with 'the box' too at times but only for an hour or two. We just watch the news and/or some interesting (vaguely) documentary. This seems to be my routine with everyone LOL. Some don't like that and want to always watch Netflix or whatever. [5/10/23, 1:39:57 am] Oli: Also he gets on coke too. And like most people WANTS TO WATCH SOMETHING ON TV. LET'S WATCH THE TV YEAH! Oh my god. OR LET'S PLAY SOME MUSIC. LOL [5/10/23, 1:40:32 am] Oli: Why can't people just relax when that is happening? Perhaps that's my view when I am on it at the time but there comes a level of intensity on it which can exclude everything else. [5/10/23, 1:40:55 am] Oli: It could be. This could describe Britain. [5/10/23, 1:41:08 am] Oli: I have always wondered whether there is some undiagnosed Asperger's. [5/10/23, 1:41:15 am] Oli: It's not actually that obvious at times. [5/10/23, 1:41:28 am] Sam: On coke? Do you think he has a problem? I don’t know if it’s just Stendhal and all that crystallisation bollocks but everything you say about him strikes me as very sweet and pure (though not to say it’s not annoying in real time). [5/10/23, 1:41:50 am] Sam: It sounds kinda obvious but it’s missed if you can play sportsball [5/10/23, 1:41:54 am] Oli: I think most people/students/young people have a problem in the west! [5/10/23, 1:42:09 am] Oli: Does it preclude sports? [5/10/23, 1:42:13 am] Oli: Maybe it is not the case then! [5/10/23, 1:42:21 am] Oli: He mumbles sometimes too... [5/10/23, 1:42:24 am] Oli: Well, I am told that I do. [5/10/23, 1:42:33 am] Sam: I’ve probably mentioned my Joanna Moncrieff fanaticism - think she and that group of people hit the nail on the head with those psych disorders [5/10/23, 1:42:32 am] Oli: Maybe it's a projection of everything I was told off for doing... [5/10/23, 1:42:52 am] Sam: So I’m not saying it as a ‘he is ill’ sorta thing, but more that he has that kind of personality [5/10/23, 1:43:06 am] Oli: Yes I think people do have personalities like that. I must do! [5/10/23, 1:44:12 am] Sam: It’s supposed to have clumsiness as a symptom, but what that even means I don’t know. You could say he has Asperger’s-minus-clumsiness, lol. Ime the remaining symptoms coöccur plenty of the time without clumsiness, and even I’m not that clumsy. [5/10/23, 1:45:00 am] Sam: Maaaybe, maybe, though imo not quite Asperger’s maybe. But I dunno. Alex Camm was diagnosed with it, I think, and he doesn’t really strike me as Asperger’s-like at all, so 🤷‍♀️ [5/10/23, 1:45:25 am] Sam: But Xander 100%, and eg Ryan 100%, Louis 100%, etc [5/10/23, 1:46:17 am] Sam: It’s a good thing imo. I know I would say that, but he really is exactly what mean. (Maybe that’s partly why I feel kinda protective about this random person I’ve never met..) [5/10/23, 1:46:21 am] Oli: Everyone seems to have it! [5/10/23, 1:46:27 am] Oli: I might have it undiagnosed as well I don't know. [5/10/23, 1:49:01 am] Sam: This is a really sweet article on the good traits: https://psychcentral.com/autism/positives-of-aspergers [5/10/23, 1:49:30 am] Sam: I know, I know, silly blog junk, but it happens to be quite accurate [5/10/23, 1:49:51 am] Sam: Only one way to find out!!!! [5/10/23, 1:50:10 am] Oli: LOL [5/10/23, 1:50:14 am] Oli: I will have a look at that [5/10/23, 1:50:17 am] Oli: Quite [5/10/23, 1:50:19 am] Oli: Hahahha [5/10/23, 1:51:11 am] Sam: More academic article from Joanna Moncrieff whom I mentioned above, but has some good background on the uncomfortable aspects of modern psychiatry: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-psychiatrist/article/critical-analysis-of-the-concept-of-adult-attentiondeficit-hyperactivity-disorder/08A941DC5B98FAF2E876E8DA0B651960 [5/10/23, 1:51:28 am] Sam: My mum will be very pleased with me, lol [5/10/23, 1:52:06 am] Sam: (Nah the weird thing with psychiatry is that just about every psychiatrist, including my mum, has some at least decent-sized reservations about how psychiatry is done) [5/10/23, 1:52:50 am] Sam: Anyway, take a break from him maybe, go to a spa hotel and have some time off, but you are not going to find a better boyfriend than that [5/10/23, 1:53:20 am] Sam: Please save yourself a lot of anguish and distress and regret and learn that the dark brooding types are not nearly as fun when you get them [5/10/23, 1:53:31 am] Sam: Follow my grandpa’s sage advice [5/10/23, 1:53:35 am] Sam: Fat man who whistles [5/10/23, 1:53:37 am] Sam: Trust me [5/10/23, 1:53:43 am] Oli: Timmy doesn't appear that autistic but he has other tendencies. [5/10/23, 1:53:50 am] Oli: Autistic or asperger's. [5/10/23, 1:53:54 am] Sam: Yeah I think he just seems like a witless dope [5/10/23, 1:54:03 am] Oli: I'm not quite sure what his tendencies are but he has schoolboy humour. Just a bit simple. [5/10/23, 1:54:10 am] Oli: I find him funny though and he laughs at Himmler etc. [5/10/23, 1:54:15 am] Sam: Bovine spongiform encephalopathy maybe [5/10/23, 1:54:17 am] Oli: But it's not that much LOL [5/10/23, 1:54:27 am] Sam: Yes that’s a bit like the palmar grasp reflex [5/10/23, 1:54:30 am] Sam: Lazarus sign [5/10/23, 1:54:32 am] Sam: Whatever ‎[5/10/23, 1:55:05 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 1:55:10 am] Oli: And encourages my mad phases. [5/10/23, 1:55:24 am] Oli: But there's not much else. I suspect he gets on OK academically but it's all very entry-level. [5/10/23, 1:55:31 am] Oli: He has an innocence which I somewhat enjoy! [5/10/23, 1:55:52 am] Sam: What you see is what you get [5/10/23, 1:56:16 am] Sam: Like a Tesco brand pizza where all the olives are under the little plastic window [5/10/23, 1:57:49 am] Sam: I implore you … look, let’s go for a drink and I will do my best to talk you out of this [5/10/23, 1:58:04 am] Sam: The grass is not greener, that’s just radiation and DDT [5/10/23, 1:59:04 am] Sam: You have found The One [5/10/23, 1:59:15 am] Sam: You’ve got him [5/10/23, 1:59:29 am] Sam: Don’t give that up for the Lower Second [5/10/23, 1:59:43 am] Oli: Witless dope seems cute LOL [5/10/23, 1:59:48 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [5/10/23, 2:00:00 am] Sam: Emphasis on ‘seem’! [5/10/23, 2:00:30 am] Sam: You will just get into stupider arguments with him or he will get bored and break up with you or cheat on you because there is utterly nothing there [5/10/23, 2:01:10 am] Sam: Not even a punch drunk squinting semblance of a character [5/10/23, 2:01:55 am] Sam: You like him because you don’t fully understand him [5/10/23, 2:02:02 am] Sam: Or you think you don’t [5/10/23, 2:03:44 am] Sam: You will eventually realise that you could write his personality on a post-it note [5/10/23, 2:05:48 am] Sam: It won’t be the end of the world, and maybe it’s too early to find ‘the one’, if you’re even suited to that anyway, but goddammit it’s painful to watch this [5/10/23, 2:06:01 am] Sam: At least if you’re gonna lose him then lose him for someone a little fucking better [5/10/23, 2:07:05 am] Sam: Because this is just adding acute CNS insult to injury [5/10/23, 2:08:19 am] Sam: Sadly you don’t get an EOF character In human beings [5/10/23, 2:08:33 am] Sam: A little null byte to indicate that you have in fact hit the end [5/10/23, 2:09:03 am] Sam: Did you ever read Gatsby? [5/10/23, 2:09:23 am] Sam: Super mainstream recommendation I know, but fucking excellent book [5/10/23, 2:09:41 am] Sam: (When the Soviets wanted to really kill Mayakovsky, they put him on the curriculum) [5/10/23, 2:11:04 am] Oli: I have it somewhere at home in Wiltshire. [5/10/23, 2:11:12 am] Oli: I haven't ever read it. I saw a bit of the film and have read about the plot. [5/10/23, 2:11:16 am] Oli: Maybe I should. [5/10/23, 2:11:45 am] Oli: Probably true. He is one of many like that. [5/10/23, 2:11:54 am] Sam: Read it! Film is shit (if you mean the Baz Luhrmann one - though idk of any good one) and lots of the really crucial bits are not filmable. Wait lemme find a couple of examples [5/10/23, 2:12:20 am] Oli: Yes probably. There is some sort of mystery which if revealed may go badly! ‎[5/10/23, 2:19:12 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 2:19:19 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 2:20:32 am] Sam: Tremendous insight into people, especially ‘good sorts of people’, and also human vanity and venality and so forth ‎[5/10/23, 2:20:50 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 2:23:06 am] Sam: I remember saying to my parents, about Freddie, that the one thing I could say in defence of being friends with rich or exalted people is that - at best - they are often the only people who are as uninterested in accumulation and riches as I am [5/10/23, 2:24:06 am] Sam: I was wrong about Freddie but I think right overall (and this is probably something to do with why all my rich friends are kids of rich parents and not accumulators themselves) [5/10/23, 2:26:00 am] Sam: Because the bitch goddess demands sacrifice, and when you have nothing left you’ll sacrifice yourself [5/10/23, 2:26:48 am] Sam: There’s a story about Vonnegut and Heller attending some rich guy’s party, I forget whose [5/10/23, 2:27:17 am] Sam: And Heller says to Vonnegut “I have something this guy will never have” [5/10/23, 2:27:23 am] Sam: “What, Joe?” [5/10/23, 2:27:27 am] Sam: “Enough” [5/10/23, 2:27:37 am] Sam: Maybe a bit trite now, but true [5/10/23, 2:27:51 am] Sam: Maybe especially important to you [5/10/23, 2:27:58 am] Sam: Not necessarily in the financial sense [5/10/23, 2:28:04 am] Sam: And v much like me [5/10/23, 2:30:09 am] Oli: This is somewhat familiar! Maybe I have skimmed it before. [5/10/23, 2:32:25 am] Oli: Good point [5/10/23, 2:32:37 am] Oli: Yes well there are always false summits in every aspect of life [5/10/23, 2:32:50 am] Oli: To be mature enough to choose satisfaction and all that entails [5/10/23, 2:33:19 am] Oli: Nice story! [5/10/23, 2:33:39 am] Oli: Bloody bitch goddess! [5/10/23, 2:35:07 am] Sam: You know I just reread that Philip guy’s texts in your screenshots, in my photos app, and I’m actually shockingly on board - he’s talking sense [5/10/23, 2:35:20 am] Oli: Which? [5/10/23, 2:35:38 am] Sam: I thought he might have been talking French - I was looking for any available alternative explanation in view of the fact that he’s one of your friends - but I think it’s actually sense [5/10/23, 2:35:47 am] Sam: All of them [5/10/23, 2:36:01 am] Sam: He’s right, fuck those people [5/10/23, 2:36:03 am] Oli: Goodness! ‎[5/10/23, 2:36:22 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[5/10/23, 2:36:27 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[5/10/23, 2:36:28 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [5/10/23, 2:36:28 am] Sam: There’s a Louis Theroux doc where he interviews a bunch of alcoholics [5/10/23, 2:36:32 am] Sam: At the maudsley [5/10/23, 2:36:35 am] Oli: I like Theroux [5/10/23, 2:36:59 am] Sam: And near the end there’s a bit where some guy is talking, in front of his girlfriend, about ‘shagging’ someone else [5/10/23, 2:37:11 am] Sam: It’s the only time I’ve ever seen Louis Theroux angry [5/10/23, 2:37:16 am] Sam: And he’s a genuinely lovely man [5/10/23, 2:37:36 am] Sam: My aunt and uncle and cousins lived in his house for a year free of charge when they moved to LA [5/10/23, 2:37:51 am] Sam: Genuinely sweet man [5/10/23, 2:37:58 am] Sam: A Xander figure [5/10/23, 2:38:07 am] Sam: I’ll find the clip [5/10/23, 2:38:19 am] Sam: But yeah those people sound fucked, what the fuck is that [5/10/23, 2:38:29 am] Oli: Philip Firsov? [5/10/23, 2:38:35 am] Oli: Oh the Philip Diaz guy [5/10/23, 2:38:40 am] Oli: Sorry I thought you meant Firsov [5/10/23, 2:38:40 am] Sam: Yup [5/10/23, 2:38:41 am] Oli: LOL [5/10/23, 2:38:45 am] Sam: Nop [5/10/23, 2:38:46 am] Oli: I was confused [5/10/23, 2:38:57 am] Oli: Then th sexual thing reminded me of what he said [5/10/23, 2:39:01 am] Oli: Yes ‎[5/10/23, 2:40:09 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 2:40:30 am] Sam: Think he lives in London again now but I’ve barely met him besides once or twice at parties to be perfectly honest [5/10/23, 2:40:49 am] Oli: Must be interesting to even meet him in those contexts! [5/10/23, 2:40:59 am] Sam: He’s a truly sweet chap [5/10/23, 2:41:04 am] Oli: Very modest profile yes [5/10/23, 2:41:08 am] Oli: Westminster Oxford etc [5/10/23, 2:41:11 am] Oli: BBC [5/10/23, 2:41:20 am] Oli: Haha or do you mean doesn’t display much on it? [5/10/23, 2:41:27 am] Oli: Do people tend to display much? [5/10/23, 2:41:33 am] Oli: To public? [5/10/23, 2:41:38 am] Sam: I think his wife is quite a severe depressive, a difficult woman, not bad but difficult, which I always thought maybe influenced his slightly weird Ambien demeanour [5/10/23, 2:42:09 am] Sam: I mean it just reads like he’s not a very famous cult / meme figure etc [5/10/23, 2:42:20 am] Sam: I can’t imagine him selling t-shirts or having a verified tick or whatever [5/10/23, 2:42:25 am] Oli: I couldn’t make it out either. Wonder was he joking or not. But he seems not to be. Sound genuinely depraved! [5/10/23, 2:42:36 am] Oli: Oh I see what you mean [5/10/23, 2:42:46 am] Oli: Maybe that’s more you projecting your ideas of him onto it? [5/10/23, 2:42:51 am] Oli: But it makes sense for me too [5/10/23, 2:42:56 am] Oli: But I think I am doing this [5/10/23, 2:43:14 am] Sam: Yeah I really want to emphasise that ‘paedophile’ does not entail “I approve of abusing people and treating them as objects for my gratification” [5/10/23, 2:43:22 am] Sam: And why on earth should that follow, really? [5/10/23, 2:43:32 am] Oli: Though often those people who make themselves out to be obviously famous on such things are non-entities famous for silly reasons? [5/10/23, 2:44:00 am] Sam: (For cultural / weird reasons it does - if the age of consent were 30 then those having sex with 24 year olds would also be likelier to be the creeps / the weirdos of society - but still it doesn’t absolutely) [5/10/23, 2:44:17 am] Sam: Yeah, but, say, Graham Norton [5/10/23, 2:44:18 am] Sam: Cunt [5/10/23, 2:44:38 am] Sam: Met him at Sotheby’s party where he was predictably a cunt - no idea why people don’t see it [5/10/23, 2:44:49 am] Sam: I’m sure he sells little shrines with his face on them [5/10/23, 2:45:07 am] Sam: And wouldn’t have a nice normal FB page with uni friends etc on ‎[5/10/23, 2:49:05 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [5/10/23, 2:49:20 am] Sam: Angry by Louis Theroux standards [5/10/23, 2:51:22 am] Oli: Interestingly don’t see it but don’t not see it and am not surprised. [5/10/23, 2:51:32 am] Oli: He has something about him which suggests he can be a cunt [5/10/23, 2:51:39 am] Oli: Unlike Theroux [5/10/23, 2:51:56 am] Oli: I see the point here [5/10/23, 2:52:19 am] Sam: Yeah, Louis Theroux (I don’t feel like I can call him by his first name or by his surname) is genuinely an odd but nice person and basically as he is on TV [5/10/23, 2:52:23 am] Sam: Some people just are [5/10/23, 2:52:28 am] Oli: Fucking hell [5/10/23, 2:52:33 am] Oli: Sounds like the people as described [5/10/23, 2:52:36 am] Sam: Eg my friend Morgan whom you met - he has quite a Louis Theroux sorta manner to him [5/10/23, 2:53:36 am] Sam: Alex Camm was convinced he was aware of his fisting profile online because of some odd fist-pumping gesture he made, and I had to say that no, Morgan just has a weird manner with everything he says, like he’s letting you in on some intimate secret [5/10/23, 2:53:50 am] Sam: Yeah pretty much [5/10/23, 2:53:55 am] Sam: And fuck those people [5/10/23, 2:54:00 am] Sam: Your friend is absolutely right [5/10/23, 2:54:05 am] Sam: I dunno why I’m so surprised [5/10/23, 2:54:22 am] Sam: But yeah, right wing or left wing or weird Tory fogey or whatever, he’s right [5/10/23, 2:54:26 am] Sam: Like [one sec] [5/10/23, 2:55:29 am] Oli: A professor of some sort? I think I recall ‎[5/10/23, 2:55:50 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 2:56:01 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 2:56:02 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 2:56:37 am] Oli: Admixture haha [5/10/23, 2:56:59 am] Oli: LOL what [5/10/23, 2:57:19 am] Sam: I don’t mind this guy! You meet _some_ good ones with your brute trial and mostly error approach! [5/10/23, 2:57:29 am] Sam: I’ll just let you do the hunting [5/10/23, 2:58:00 am] Sam: Like my sister scraping through bargain bins in second hand clothes shops and finding nice clothes which I then buy from her or get for my birthday, haha [5/10/23, 2:58:06 am] Sam: (PhD student stuff…) [5/10/23, 2:58:25 am] Sam: Yeah I know, haha - it’s possible Alex is right but I doubt it [5/10/23, 2:59:10 am] Sam: Apparently Morgan kept saying “this music is really BANGING” and then pumping his fist. Or something sorta like that, idk. Which sounds to me like a classic awkward Morgan behaviour! [5/10/23, 2:59:29 am] Sam: (Prof of composition at the RCM or RAM or something iirc btw) [5/10/23, 2:59:33 am] Sam: Morgan Hayes [5/10/23, 2:59:36 am] Sam: Should be googleable [5/10/23, 2:59:42 am] Oli: Oh yes I met him [5/10/23, 2:59:49 am] Oli: He told me he was RCM I think yes [5/10/23, 2:59:56 am] Oli: Or RAM [5/10/23, 2:59:58 am] Sam: I know, I just remembered you asked a few texts above [5/10/23, 3:00:00 am] Oli: Maybe the Marylebone one [5/10/23, 3:00:04 am] Sam: Ici [5/10/23, 3:00:21 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [5/10/23, 3:00:23 am] Sam: Would make sense since he lives nearish our pad house - cavell st [5/10/23, 3:00:25 am] Oli: LOL [5/10/23, 3:00:45 am] Oli: And this was interpreted in the other way [5/10/23, 3:00:54 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [5/10/23, 3:01:15 am] Sam: As a supposed “I have seen your fisting material” hint [5/10/23, 3:01:45 am] Sam: Think Alex meant he thought Morgan was sexually interested and indicating his availability to be fisted [5/10/23, 3:01:51 am] Sam: I have to say [5/10/23, 3:01:58 am] Sam: I really like Alex and this is not a criticism [5/10/23, 3:02:15 am] Oli: Sounds like a rare occasion of a correct Freudian analysis of some sort of paranoia [5/10/23, 3:02:21 am] Sam: But he definitely has a problem with not questioning his perceptions when in an altered state of mind [5/10/23, 3:02:31 am] Sam: It’s not that he takes more drugs or gets worse effects [5/10/23, 3:02:33 am] Sam: It’s that…. [5/10/23, 3:02:34 am] Oli: Perhaps the one occasion it would be right: the paranoia would be right [5/10/23, 3:02:41 am] Oli: Rightly ascribed [5/10/23, 3:03:05 am] Sam: Like, I got auditory hallucinations, but I figured out cognitive techniques for satisfying myself that they weren’t real [5/10/23, 3:03:09 am] Sam: Alex has not done that [5/10/23, 3:03:31 am] Sam: And will panic and flush his drugs down the toilet and _then_ come into my room and tell me the police are en route [5/10/23, 3:03:41 am] Oli: LOL [5/10/23, 3:03:43 am] Sam: I remember that occasion because I could see it dawning on him as he was telling me [5/10/23, 3:03:47 am] Oli: people on coke do this too [5/10/23, 3:03:51 am] Oli: Paranoia it’s called [5/10/23, 3:03:56 am] Oli: ‘Packet paranoia’ [5/10/23, 3:03:58 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [5/10/23, 3:04:07 am] Sam: Yeah but one can deal with it by … one sec [5/10/23, 3:04:14 am] Oli: Watched someone checking the letterbox during a 3 day bender once [5/10/23, 3:04:20 am] Oli: Thinking there were voices outside [5/10/23, 3:04:29 am] Oli: And spyhole [5/10/23, 3:04:32 am] Oli: Absolutely mad! ‎[5/10/23, 3:06:19 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 3:06:41 am] Sam: Like, it’s very often in a grey area, not _entirely_ insusceptible to reason ‎[5/10/23, 3:09:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 3:11:04 am] Oli: Yes but I wonder how many people can cope with this when under the influence. [5/10/23, 3:11:10 am] Oli: Maybe very few! [5/10/23, 3:11:32 am] Oli: If reason is distorted more for some depending on tolerance? [5/10/23, 3:11:59 am] Oli: Nice dog! [5/10/23, 3:12:27 am] Sam: Speaking for myself, of meth-induced auditory hallucinations, I could easily differentiate [5/10/23, 3:12:40 am] Sam: Hold on, lemme find my texts to Alex one time which explain this perfectly ‎[5/10/23, 3:15:18 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:15:18 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:15:18 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 3:15:56 am] Sam: This is heartbreaking [5/10/23, 3:15:58 am] Sam: Horrible [5/10/23, 3:16:02 am] Sam: Jesus [5/10/23, 3:16:13 am] Sam: Sorry, just reading properly [5/10/23, 3:17:14 am] Sam: Shit, that last line [5/10/23, 3:17:25 am] Oli: Yes I also saw it too! [5/10/23, 3:17:32 am] Sam: I don’t know what to say [5/10/23, 3:17:38 am] Sam: I want it to stop [5/10/23, 3:18:50 am] Oli: I always wondered what he must have been like. [5/10/23, 3:19:03 am] Oli: ‘The Man’ as described was probably last seen truly 10 years ago. [5/10/23, 3:19:43 am] Oli: I saw glimpses of it in him when he socialised with others. He had a way of letting it come out. Of momentarily focusing and getting away from what appeared to be severe neuroses. [5/10/23, 3:20:36 am] Oli: I know little about this but it is an interest. [5/10/23, 3:20:45 am] Oli: OK [5/10/23, 3:21:15 am] Sam: It’s … god, I don’t even know. I don’t think I have ever really been a drug addict in quite that way. [5/10/23, 3:22:05 am] Sam: I saw glimpses of it in Roman. Weirdly even at his worst he preserved his dignity in some tiny way. Phil quite a bit more so. Kieran perhaps most of all, oddly. Rupert’s texts you sent me look like that. [5/10/23, 3:22:58 am] Oli: Yes I always thought you were functioning! Maybe highly functioning! [5/10/23, 3:23:18 am] Oli: It’s quite a proper addiction. And genuine depravity. [5/10/23, 3:23:39 am] Oli: (‘That way’) ‎[5/10/23, 3:23:51 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:23:51 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:23:52 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:24:07 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:24:07 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:24:08 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 3:24:45 am] Sam: Not calling Alex an addict, which I don’t think he is - just saying he’s peculiarly bad (for a not-stupid person) at using his brain in a self-questioning sorta way when in that state ‎ [5/10/23, 3:30:50 am] Sam: Haha I just saw this - why am I weirdly turned on? Not literally by my Memoji thing but it’s something like calling someone by their name / being called by one’s name (in my weird idiosyncratic mind) ‎[5/10/23, 3:31:36 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:36:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:36:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:36:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:36:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:36:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:36:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 3:37:48 am] Oli: Dehumidifier! ‎[5/10/23, 3:38:03 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:40:00 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:42:02 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:42:27 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:43:06 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:45:12 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:45:12 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:49:04 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [5/10/23, 3:39:16 am] Oli: ‘Din’. Wonderful word! A concerned/angry neighbour once said to Firsov and our crowd ‘no more din tonight!’ [5/10/23, 3:40:20 am] Oli: Using a brain in a self-questioning way is not something I’d imagine for anyone in that kind of state! But maybe they can. You seem to be able to so that must mean something! [5/10/23, 3:41:43 am] Oli: Haha. I wondered what the result would be! It is quite similar because it seems to be a personal thing! [5/10/23, 3:43:15 am] Oli: I loved the Percy Jackson books [5/10/23, 3:43:22 am] Oli: I read them all! [5/10/23, 3:44:54 am] Oli: A nice atmosphere ‎[5/10/23, 3:53:28 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:53:28 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:54:24 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:55:04 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 3:56:01 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [5/10/23, 3:56:42 am] Oli: ‘Doesn’t do much’ you on the pheasant haha [5/10/23, 3:57:02 am] Sam: Didn’t! ‎[5/10/23, 3:57:37 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:00:26 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:00:26 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:01:23 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:02:41 am] Sam: ‎video omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:07:35 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 3:59:38 am] Oli: This must’ve been a good video for them! 🤣 ‎[5/10/23, 4:08:05 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:10:23 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:11:21 am] Sam: ‎video omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:12:45 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 4:14:44 am] Sam: God there was a moment that night when I woke up at like 2am in his dad’s weird softly lit carpeted flat, just me and him, and wandered to the bathroom feeling like I was a baby in the womb, just feeling total peace and serenity and wanting nothing more than that [5/10/23, 4:15:12 am] Sam: That moment my life was over I think ‎[5/10/23, 4:15:34 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:16:28 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 4:17:10 am] Sam: Ok done [5/10/23, 4:17:12 am] Sam: Done for now [5/10/23, 4:17:14 am] Sam: Sorry haha [5/10/23, 4:17:21 am] Sam: I’ll have mercy [5/10/23, 4:17:25 am] Sam: Not sacrifice [5/10/23, 4:17:53 am] Sam: He enjoyed it I think [5/10/23, 4:17:59 am] Sam: He didn’t enjoy our departure [5/10/23, 4:18:04 am] Sam: God I’ve gotta find my text to him ‎[5/10/23, 4:19:35 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:20:31 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 4:20:42 am] Oli: Goodness I remember that flat [5/10/23, 4:20:43 am] Sam: Ah yes I recall!! [5/10/23, 4:20:50 am] Oli: Maybe 4 times [5/10/23, 4:20:52 am] Oli: Or 3 [5/10/23, 4:21:16 am] Oli: ‘Wow’ his reply [5/10/23, 4:21:31 am] Sam: Oh weird, really? For some reason I only remember 1, or maybe 2 (your incest cousjn) [5/10/23, 4:21:43 am] Sam: Sorry, the female one, the one who came to our flat [5/10/23, 4:22:11 am] Oli: Lol. I came once randomly on way back somewhere maybe to Exeter. Second time was another occasion. And then the cousin woman. [5/10/23, 4:22:15 am] Oli: I think it was 3 [5/10/23, 4:22:51 am] Oli: Actually might’ve been two [5/10/23, 4:23:13 am] Oli: I think 2 haha [5/10/23, 4:23:18 am] Oli: Yes just found 2 photos [5/10/23, 4:23:28 am] Oli: Of that thing when I told you I was outside [5/10/23, 4:23:37 am] Oli: April and June 2021 ‎[5/10/23, 4:23:44 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 4:24:18 am] Sam: Haha great - twas a horrible place brightened only by its brief association with Louis [5/10/23, 4:24:31 am] Sam: But mostly two years of sitting in the dark on heroin [5/10/23, 4:24:37 am] Oli: How long were you there for? [5/10/23, 4:24:40 am] Oli: Ah two years [5/10/23, 4:24:41 am] Oli: 🤣 [5/10/23, 4:24:53 am] Sam: Memories of writhing in ibogaine agony in a pool of my own vomit convinced I was about to die [5/10/23, 4:25:05 am] Sam: I was convinced, that is, not the vomit pool [5/10/23, 4:25:15 am] Sam: About two years yeah [5/10/23, 4:25:18 am] Sam: Longest flat [5/10/23, 4:25:22 am] Sam: Also worst [5/10/23, 4:25:39 am] Sam: Sadly it’s been downhill since ‎[5/10/23, 4:26:16 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:27:46 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:27:46 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:27:46 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:27:46 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 4:28:08 am] Oli: Ah yes the dog I feared [5/10/23, 4:28:11 am] Oli: I remember this [5/10/23, 4:28:36 am] Sam: Add a generation to the relations since this was for my dad I think [5/10/23, 4:29:24 am] Sam: Rare greengrocerish apostrophe there from my grandma [5/10/23, 4:29:45 am] Sam: Maybe her English was worse then! [5/10/23, 4:29:57 am] Sam: (Whenever she made the album I mean) ‎[5/10/23, 4:30:28 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:31:27 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 4:30:34 am] Oli: Interesting to have these [5/10/23, 4:30:48 am] Oli: And the work dog too! ‎[5/10/23, 4:31:41 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:32:01 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:32:39 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:32:39 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:32:39 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:33:52 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:39:05 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:42:46 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:43:19 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:44:41 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:45:06 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:48:42 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:48:42 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:48:42 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:48:59 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:50:12 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:52:11 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:53:48 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:54:41 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:55:27 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:55:45 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:56:42 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:57:29 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:57:29 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:57:29 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:58:08 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:58:08 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:58:08 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:58:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:58:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:58:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:58:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:58:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:58:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:58:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 4:58:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 4:59:16 am] Sam: Jesus how long have I been doing this [5/10/23, 4:59:19 am] Sam: And why [5/10/23, 4:59:21 am] Sam: Christ [5/10/23, 4:59:27 am] Sam: Utterly mindless scrolling [5/10/23, 4:59:45 am] Sam: I’m fucking terrible with this, it’s an awful habit, I can get such tunnel vision [5/10/23, 5:00:26 am] Oli: LOL! Funny hats you’re wearing 👴🏻🤣 [5/10/23, 5:00:51 am] Oli: I enjoy looking into it! [5/10/23, 5:06:03 am] Sam: Oh that’s good then! [5/10/23, 5:06:06 am] Sam: Haha [5/10/23, 5:06:16 am] Sam: No, I had a very happy childhood, I was lucky in that [5/10/23, 5:06:38 am] Sam: Not many photos of that on my phone but I guess those are some from the years! [5/10/23, 5:07:16 am] Sam: God I’m analysing myself through your eyes now [5/10/23, 5:07:18 am] Sam: Awful [5/10/23, 5:07:28 am] Sam: Lemme find my suicide texts to Damien [5/10/23, 5:07:29 am] Oli: Goodness! How?! [5/10/23, 5:08:32 am] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [5/10/23, 5:08:33 am] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [5/10/23, 5:10:32 am] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [5/10/23, 5:11:19 am] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [5/10/23, 5:11:55 am] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [5/10/23, 2:30:28 pm] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [5/10/23, 2:33:56 pm] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [5/10/23, 2:38:49 pm] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [5/10/23, 2:48:21 pm] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [5/10/23, 6:48:19 pm] Sam: Quick new question. (I’ll delete the above so there’s no risk of your replying unless you’ve anything you’re mad keen to say. A point for a point will make both of us gouge out our eyes and go live in an ashram.) What do you make of this exchange with Damien? [5/10/23, 6:48:49 pm] Oli: Haha ok ‎[5/10/23, 6:49:27 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 6:49:28 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 6:50:21 pm] Sam: My replies aren’t super important but I’m quite unclear whether he’s saying he intends to keep our deposit when paid back (which would be rather outrageous and out of character) [5/10/23, 6:50:30 pm] Sam: Or whether he means something else [5/10/23, 6:51:31 pm] Sam: For context, my mum called the agent to try to finagle a reference out of them - I’m no good at small talk and this stuff is sorta her job - and apparently Damien had been planning never to tell them I’d moved out (??!!) [5/10/23, 6:54:47 pm] Sam: (We each paid I think £18k up front for 6 months’ rent, ie till end of Oct, and half each of the deposit) [5/10/23, 6:55:19 pm] Sam: Figured this kinda thing would be a good topic since moral stuff is prob best avoided for now! [5/10/23, 6:57:16 pm] Oli: It appears that he does not have the funds to give the deposit? Why? Either because he will keep it and spend it or, charitably, he needs it to pay off debts he's accrued in the meantime, hence he can't give it to you 'now'. [5/10/23, 6:58:16 pm] Oli: No mention of the deposit in the e-mail from the Tamika Henry. [5/10/23, 6:58:22 pm] Oli: So it must be an arrangement you two had between yourselves? [5/10/23, 6:58:38 pm] Oli: Agreed deposit would be paid at the end of the tenancy (for you both)? [5/10/23, 6:58:54 pm] Oli: Oh I see. [5/10/23, 6:59:07 pm] Sam: It’s bizarre. I can’t quite tell if he means: - he can’t pay me before they pay him _(which seems to go without saying)_ OR - he can’t pay me when they pay him _(which seems inexplicable unless he’s taking the money to pay towards something else, which seems unconscionable)_ [5/10/23, 6:59:10 pm] Oli: Or is your deposit going to be given back to you? Why would it be given to him? [5/10/23, 6:59:33 pm] Oli: Yes it seems to be a suggestion of the latter. [5/10/23, 6:59:42 pm] Oli: He must need it to pay off a debt he's accrued. [5/10/23, 6:59:51 pm] Sam: I’m not sure it actually will be paid back to him - in my experience it usually goes back in the same proportions and to the same accounts that paid it in - but I’m still confused by his intent [5/10/23, 6:59:53 pm] Oli: If they are going to pay it back (to him?) [5/10/23, 7:00:05 pm] Oli: Yes I am not sure if it would even go back at all? [5/10/23, 7:00:10 pm] Oli: As surely the deposit was 32k thus? [5/10/23, 7:00:15 pm] Oli: And the tenancy hasn't ended. [5/10/23, 7:00:17 pm] Oli: So he maybe means... [5/10/23, 7:00:24 pm] Oli: He can't pay you the deposit back (from his own funds). [5/10/23, 7:00:28 pm] Sam: Oh no, no no no, most of that money was up front rent - deposit probably about £6-8k [5/10/23, 7:00:28 pm] Oli: He might mean this. [5/10/23, 7:00:40 pm] Oli: Ah. Either way he may mean this. [5/10/23, 7:00:41 pm] Sam: But yes I doubt it will go back to him [5/10/23, 7:00:51 pm] Oli: Because they aren't going to get rid of it until the tenancy ends. [5/10/23, 7:00:59 pm] Sam: But I guess I’m concerned (a) in case it does and (b) because I’m mystified by what he’s trying to do [5/10/23, 7:01:00 pm] Oli: So he hasn't got the funds at the moment to give it to you he must mean. [5/10/23, 7:01:12 pm] Sam: (Money is not urgently needed but I’d be annoyed if I didn’t get it) [5/10/23, 7:01:48 pm] Sam: I never expected him to pay me back ahead of time - we discussed this and I said I was fine waiting even if the contract were served out for the full 2 years [5/10/23, 7:01:58 pm] Sam: So no expectation of him pre-paying me [5/10/23, 7:02:23 pm] Sam: Only thing that occurs to me is that he may be planning to spend it against rent [5/10/23, 7:02:44 pm] Sam: (It would cover 5 weeks I think, which is barely worth the trouble) [5/10/23, 7:02:47 pm] Oli: This could be. [5/10/23, 7:02:57 pm] Sam: Or 6 [5/10/23, 7:02:59 pm] Sam: I can’t recall [5/10/23, 7:03:11 pm] Sam: There’s an exception for flats over £X/year, which ours is [5/10/23, 7:03:23 pm] Oli: Does he mean there's an implication that you will NOW get your share of the deposit, as exiting, from him, and he'll take the whole thing at the eventual end? And thus that he at the moment can't pay you? [5/10/23, 7:03:24 pm] Sam: And it’s either usually 4 and for us 5, or usually 5 and for us 6 [5/10/23, 7:03:27 pm] Oli: This seems likely. [5/10/23, 7:03:36 pm] Sam: Weeks, I mean - the legal limit on deposit amount [5/10/23, 7:04:27 pm] Sam: Wait what do you mean? There’s no such implication - we had agreed literally just that he would pass me back my share of the deposit (if it went to him for whatever reason) when it were paid back to him [5/10/23, 7:04:38 pm] Sam: We wrote a crude contract to that effect - one sec [5/10/23, 7:04:56 pm] Oli: Oh. And he's not stupid enough to think anything else? [5/10/23, 7:05:14 pm] Oli: And OK your share of the deposit will be paid back to HIM not you? ‎[5/10/23, 7:05:18 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[5/10/23, 7:05:18 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 7:05:25 pm] Oli: Yes, it seems likely then that he wants the money to spend on something else, maybe rent. [5/10/23, 7:05:34 pm] Oli: If he's mentioning it. [5/10/23, 7:06:16 pm] Sam: Structured as me renting back to him my ‘right’ in the flat, for simplicity [5/10/23, 7:06:49 pm] Sam: And reverting on 17 Oct to the s quo ante, ie I pay and I tenant [5/10/23, 7:07:05 pm] Oli: Where is the deposit in this?! [5/10/23, 7:07:06 pm] Sam: It’s all very mystifying but this is my worry [5/10/23, 7:07:26 pm] Oli: Compensate for deposit deductions is there [5/10/23, 7:07:56 pm] Oli: I mean this [5/10/23, 7:08:05 pm] Oli: Will the deposit be paid back to HIM when you exit the tenancy? [5/10/23, 7:08:10 pm] Sam: Ah, maybe we didn’t put it in, because I guess there was nothing else to say - though maybe would have been good to state explicitly [5/10/23, 7:08:11 pm] Oli: I.e. that's what is happening now. [5/10/23, 7:08:23 pm] Sam: I very much doubt it, and in any case it wouldn’t legally be his [5/10/23, 7:08:32 pm] Sam: But no, there’s no reason to think it would be [5/10/23, 7:08:43 pm] Oli: Why is he mentioning that he can't pay it back to you now then? [5/10/23, 7:08:48 pm] Oli: Would he have been given correspondence which you wouldn't have? [5/10/23, 7:08:54 pm] Oli: Which may have referenced the deposit? [5/10/23, 7:08:56 pm] Sam: We paid in equal shares from our own accounts and were perfectly clear to them that we were splitting it [5/10/23, 7:09:19 pm] Sam: I think maybe he thinks it would be paid to him, somehow, by virtue of his being in the flat? I genuinely have no clue [5/10/23, 7:09:50 pm] Sam: It may be that our discussions about the *eventuality* where he were for some reason paid it (ie what we’re discussing now) led him to start thinking that was actually what would happen [5/10/23, 7:10:20 pm] Sam: In my experience they just pay back to whoever paid it [5/10/23, 7:10:25 pm] Oli: Yes don't think it would work like that! [5/10/23, 7:10:33 pm] Oli: They have to legally, I think. [5/10/23, 7:10:56 pm] Oli: So maybe there's not much to worry about in the grand scheme of things? [5/10/23, 7:11:01 pm] Oli: Unless he were for some reason paid it? [5/10/23, 7:11:04 pm] Sam: For me and Raz this _did_ happen, because for longwinded reasons I’d made the payment from my acct, and I’d never have dreamt of not paying him his share even tho we were on bad terms [5/10/23, 7:11:17 pm] Sam: I guess that’s the eventuality we were providing for [5/10/23, 7:11:20 pm] Sam: Or not maybe [5/10/23, 7:11:35 pm] Sam: But I’m not totally sure that _they_ wouldn’t owe it to me still if they did that [5/10/23, 7:11:47 pm] Oli: I'm not sure I'll be able to give you the deposit back atm... [5/10/23, 7:11:49 pm] Oli: Odd... [5/10/23, 7:11:53 pm] Oli: Odd thing to write! [5/10/23, 7:11:58 pm] Sam: I can’t puzzle it out at all [5/10/23, 7:12:10 pm] Oli: I think they would if it was in your contract [5/10/23, 7:12:11 pm] Sam: He’s either stating the bleeding obvious or he’s stating the bleeding outrageous, haha [5/10/23, 7:12:18 pm] Sam: Let me check, one sec [5/10/23, 7:12:23 pm] Sam: Actually I’ll send you the thing [5/10/23, 7:12:25 pm] Oli: Or his desire to be outrageous [5/10/23, 7:12:32 pm] Oli: He may not be able to ‎[5/10/23, 7:12:46 pm] Sam: Tenancy Agreement- AST 24-03-2023.PDF • ‎26 pages ‎document omitted [5/10/23, 7:13:27 pm] Sam: Note that I moved from W1T 1TL to W1S 1SL [5/10/23, 7:13:31 pm] Sam: Which still blows my mind [5/10/23, 7:13:43 pm] Sam: Glitch in the matrix [5/10/23, 7:14:24 pm] Oli: At the end of the Tenancy the Agent shall return the Deposit to the Tenant subject to the possible deductions as set out in this Agreement and agreed between the parties. Any interest earned will belong to the Agent. Further provisions relating to the Deposit are set out in clause 28 and in the Schedule (Prescribed Information). [5/10/23, 7:14:30 pm] Oli: 5.1 [5/10/23, 7:14:46 pm] Oli: I wonder if there is a Tenant listed for the deposit only. [5/10/23, 7:14:57 pm] Oli: And if you both just happened to split it but one Tenant is named as deposit. [5/10/23, 7:15:07 pm] Oli: Or if both and if that's just Tenants and misphrased. [5/10/23, 7:16:33 pm] Oli: The whole contract just says Tenant. [5/10/23, 7:16:39 pm] Oli: In reference to what is surely both tenants. [5/10/23, 7:16:44 pm] Oli: But you are both listed as Tenants. [5/10/23, 7:16:47 pm] Sam: I think we’re both one legal person perhaps [5/10/23, 7:16:55 pm] Oli: So it can be assumed that the substance of the contract is to return it to both. [5/10/23, 7:16:59 pm] Oli: I would think? [5/10/23, 7:17:24 pm] Sam: Yes - in what share is unclear, but as a convention it usually (always ime) seems to go in the proportions it was paid [5/10/23, 7:17:34 pm] Sam: That may well be the law [5/10/23, 7:17:47 pm] Sam: Oh wait my mum has just called and has spoken to the agent [5/10/23, 7:17:52 pm] Sam: Can hear aunt on phone [5/10/23, 7:17:57 pm] Sam: Descending stairs as we speak [5/10/23, 7:22:54 pm] Oli: Goodness let's see. [5/10/23, 7:23:32 pm] Oli: (2) The Tenant: Damien William McMullen & Samuel William Howard Robinson-Adams (jointly & severally liable) [5/10/23, 7:23:34 pm] Oli: Both The Tenant [5/10/23, 7:24:26 pm] Oli: Your tenancy has ended surely? [5/10/23, 7:24:37 pm] Oli: Hence maybe what they're writing. [5/10/23, 7:25:01 pm] Oli: 'remainder of the tenancy being taken by Damien as the sole tenant' [5/10/23, 7:25:12 pm] Oli: So perhaps your deposit is to be repaid to you now? [5/10/23, 7:25:20 pm] Oli: You should contact them yourself and seek clarification? [5/10/23, 7:25:59 pm] Oli: “Tenancy”meansthetenancycreatedunderthisAgreementandincludesanyextensionorcontinuationofthe contractual Tenancy or any statutory periodic Tenancy arising after the expiry of the original Term. 1.25. [5/10/23, 7:26:37 pm] Oli: The tenancy created under this Agreement has ended for you? Thus for Damien too? Is it a new tenancy he's creating for himself? I wonder exactly how they will conduct it. [5/10/23, 7:27:19 pm] Oli: 'If the landlord were to reject the new terms' 'If the landlord doesn't accept the new terms then they'll serve notice, and they won't give me upfront paid...' etc [5/10/23, 7:27:26 pm] Oli: Are there things he has not made you aware of? It sounds like it. [5/10/23, 7:27:31 pm] Oli: I do wonder what is going on. [5/10/23, 7:30:39 pm] Sam: With Damien there always, _always_ are [5/10/23, 7:33:47 pm] Sam: It will have, and that I think is what he is upset about, though it seems to me like an inevitability _(at least it was surely inevitable that they would know I’d left, and it seems that they consider that to require a new contract, ergo in that sense it’s inevitable a new contract was required)_ and I’m mystified that he expected to pretend I lived there, like fucking Mother Bates or something [5/10/23, 7:35:53 pm] Oli: Well… [5/10/23, 7:35:58 pm] Oli: Meaning… [5/10/23, 7:36:08 pm] Oli: This is triggered? [5/10/23, 7:36:21 pm] Oli: But surely if it is you would get the deposit sent back to you in equal shares? [5/10/23, 7:37:17 pm] Sam: Exactly. I think our contract ends either way, and his new terms aren’t really anything to do with it. If he’s accepted he’s accepted, if he’s rejected he’s rejected, but in the material sense it’s not really my concern. (That would be my understanding at least.) [5/10/23, 7:37:55 pm] Sam: So maybe he’s trying to convince me that it somehow _is_ my concern (though I don’t know why he’d really need me to think that), or else … god I dunno what’s going through his mind [5/10/23, 7:38:06 pm] Sam: The occasional electrical pulse maybe [5/10/23, 7:38:16 pm] Oli: I see. Yes the deposit is a different scheme [5/10/23, 7:38:26 pm] Oli: I think it always has been. For student flats etc I’ve had this. [5/10/23, 7:38:43 pm] Sam: Since I became an adult at least. I think not long before that iirc. [5/10/23, 7:38:44 pm] Oli: It is paid automatically to registered parties. Presumably they registered you as two separate people in that deposit scheme? [5/10/23, 7:39:16 pm] Oli: And he’s somehow banking on getting the whole deposit? Somehow? [5/10/23, 7:39:24 pm] Sam: Yup, 2007 it seems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenancy_deposit_scheme_(England_and_Wales) [5/10/23, 7:39:27 pm] Oli: God [5/10/23, 7:39:52 pm] Sam: Yes, I’d have imagined. We paid in equally, and there’s absolutely no reason afaict that they would think of sending it to him. [5/10/23, 7:40:36 pm] Sam: The only reason I can even imagine he might think that is that he’s the one who’s still in the flat. That is, that’s the only difference between us in respect of this flat. But obviously that wouldn’t imply that in reality. [5/10/23, 7:42:57 pm] Sam: The other possibility is that he’s just upset and lashing out. But what on earth did he fucking expect????? To have a little scarecrow model of me in my room? Some pillows under the duvet and a pumpkin with sunglasses and a bowler hat? Did he expect me to send half his rent from my bank account? [5/10/23, 7:44:04 pm] Sam: I’m not annoyed at him or anything, I’m still absolutely handling this as friends as far as I can (same reason I handle Kieran as a friend). But I just don’t understand how he expected this to play out?!? [5/10/23, 8:23:41 pm] Oli: I do agree that there appears to be something odd about his communication that there appears to be some hidden premise in his thoughts. [5/10/23, 8:24:53 pm] Oli: That he's going to get the deposit as he thinks (unrealistic)? Or that he is trying to work up to asking you for the deposit if you agree that he can't give it back (you assuming his version of events)? So he'll just eventually say, 'Oh, can you sign this saying we both get the deposit or (EVEN) give it to me?' Does that seems unlikely? [5/10/23, 8:25:37 pm] Oli: Otherwise what other possibility is there? [5/10/23, 10:05:05 pm] Sam: Asking me for the deposit? That seems rather bold. It’s possible but it feels to me somehow like he’s trying to ‘motivate’ me to support the “new terms” (presumably i.e. his being approved to continue the contract on his own or with a new flatmate), given his wording. Is it possible he’s trying to enlist my help in finding himself a new flatmate, even? [5/10/23, 10:05:47 pm] Sam: On that note, how would you like to live in a wonderful flat I’ve heard about with a good friend of mine on London’s premier shopping street? 🤪 [5/10/23, 10:06:26 pm] Sam: Guaranteed regular mop handle batterings! [5/10/23, 10:08:57 pm] Sam: (I still have heard nothing further, even though he was online at 8pm. And seriously am i being unreasonable here? How in God’s name was he expecting to hide my departure from the landlord for 18 months at minimum and possibly indefinitely?) ‎[5/10/23, 10:40:12 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 10:45:37 pm] Sam: Any thoughts welcome, but I’m inclined to say: - I haven’t asked to be removed from the contract (which I haven’t; their email makes it quite clear that this was their decision in light of my having physically left the flat). - It seems to me the deductions will probably be made right away. - I (I’ll put this as politely as possible) absolutely never guaranteed him anything after October 16th, and he’s lucky that it’s taken this long for them to realise I’ve left. [5/10/23, 10:46:30 pm] Sam: General thoughts? 💭 [5/10/23, 10:46:41 pm] Oli: ‘More subtle than asking to be removed from the contract’ haha [5/10/23, 10:46:42 pm] Sam: (I won’t repeat anything you say) [5/10/23, 10:48:31 pm] Sam: I think I’d have been quite within my rights to! Haha. I did say to him that I didn’t mind if he took some liberty with the facts, given he was quite decent in buying out my rent till Oct 16th which is the earliest we could have both quit (well, the end of our prepaid rent), but I absolutely never would have promised him that I’d bend over backwards to never give away the fact that I’d moved out. [5/10/23, 10:49:17 pm] Sam: Indeed he’s fairly lucky it’s taken me this long to find somewhere (pretty much the entire three months), and it was inconceivable that I wouldn’t have let on that I’d left in the process of *obtaining a fucking reference*… [5/10/23, 10:52:51 pm] Sam: Obv I have sympathy for him. I think the world hums along on the principle of affordance, of being 'a little kinder than necessary' as my grandma always put it. I won't get all up in arms about 'how dare you ask this' etc etc. But still... how dare he ask this etc etc!!! [5/10/23, 10:56:24 pm] Oli: Hello, I’m currently just dictating messages cause I’m driving from Exmoor to where I live with my grandfather on the Wiltshire Somerset border quite a funny time to drive. I agree but it’s nice and quiet on the road and then tomorrow I’m in London for a funny parties. It seems a good idea and then back maybe on a Saturday. we go to Turkey on Sunday madness [5/10/23, 10:57:42 pm] Oli: I think your responses are good I agree with you, why does he have to put up smokescreens by Cardi? Tell you exactly what’s going on and it seems to be the case that he is aware of there being some sort of demand up or are on the deposit because of damage, so why is he just come clean with this wifey stringing you along before it looks like to eat until the eventual date it’s not it’s not a way to communicate with someone particularly when money involved like that. [5/10/23, 10:58:24 pm] Oli: Protection looking what is 12 what is written is crap this dictation so by Cardi I’m not sure what that means why did have to put up smokescreens why can’t you tell exactly what’s going on because if there’s going to be some demand on the deposit, his implying that he’s made some damage, but clearly, which I think you’re right, they will. They will come and do the inspections quite soon before they release either of you from it or more or give it to a new person [5/10/23, 10:59:08 pm] Oli: Sorry, the car can read out messages my phone receives so that’s fine and actually on some roads where there are no authorities which is probably all of them but where there is a good 4G signal in the country I can look at it there ‎[5/10/23, 10:59:36 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[5/10/23, 11:00:11 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [5/10/23, 11:02:04 pm] Oli: Oh I see. He can’t pay the other half. How does he pay rent! Maybe someone else [5/10/23, 11:16:21 pm] Sam: TURN RIGHT IN 50 YARDS INTO ATLANTIC OCEAN [5/10/23, 11:16:40 pm] Sam: Haha sorry will read now [5/10/23, 11:17:54 pm] Sam: No I agree with you (by Cardi, hallowed be her name 🙏🏻) ‎[5/10/23, 11:19:17 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [5/10/23, 11:19:23 pm] Oli: My normal driving hilarious. No-one but road workers [5/10/23, 11:19:50 pm] Sam: It’s a bit unreal because I know the money won’t actually go to him — so it feels a bit like we’re playing fantasy sleazeball — but still I’m a bit staggered at his expectations. [5/10/23, 11:20:16 pm] Oli: Yeaaah good idea [5/10/23, 11:21:07 pm] Sam: Like, if he’d asked me not to tell them I’d moved out, that would be one thing (I doubt I could have agreed even then). But to just _not tell me_, and expect me not to let on, and be surprised when I need a reference for a new flat (and he’s bloody lucky that took me so long that the 6 months is basically up), this just blows my mind. [5/10/23, 11:22:58 pm] Sam: Just the general theme of not telling me anything and then having wildly unreasonable expectations of how I should behave [5/10/23, 11:26:15 pm] Sam: I mean, in reality it’s he who has almost fucked up my referencing for this new flat - and may yet manage to fuck it up - by concealing _for two or three months_ the fact that I’d moved out [5/10/23, 11:27:40 pm] Sam: Like, I truly am sorry if he is struggling to pony up the deposit, and I was willing to leave my money in there if that was what was needed, but I don’t think I’m obliged to keep covering the deposit on his flat if it means I can’t get another one [5/10/23, 11:27:49 pm] Oli: It’s unheard of; you’re not telepathic [5/10/23, 11:28:40 pm] Oli: He must be used to thinking people are [5/10/23, 11:28:49 pm] Oli: Twink syndrome I wonder [5/10/23, 11:28:53 pm] Sam: (Which it does mean, because Huss, the agent, wasn’t willing to give a reference for a new flat while I was still obliged to pay for this one, and also at the moment technically in arrears because Damien was still negotiating) [5/10/23, 11:29:34 pm] Sam: And Huss hadn’t heard a thing about my having moved out till my mum called him to try to figure out why he hadn’t replied to the reference request [5/10/23, 11:29:58 pm] Oli: Very odd I agree it’s not how people behave [5/10/23, 11:30:23 pm] Sam: And he’s extremely lucky that it went as well and lasted as long as it has [5/10/23, 11:30:34 pm] Sam: Clearly I was going to need a reference at some point [5/10/23, 11:30:53 pm] Sam: And clearly - even setting aside the deposit - I was not going to let him launder his rent money through my bank account, haha [5/10/23, 11:32:40 pm] Oli: Yes that’s what he wanted. I’ve seen others doing that too lol [5/10/23, 11:36:45 pm] Sam: Wild… I don’t know what to say to him. I feel bad, but the brute reality is that many people have more need of my money, and I don’t think the world owes him a Mayfair flat he can’t afford. It sucks though and I wish it weren’t happening to him, however lucky he may be. ‎[5/10/23, 11:38:53 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [5/10/23, 11:41:48 pm] Sam: I can answer this question, incidentally, with the obvious answer: [6/10/23, 12:22:08 am] Oli: Didn’t send but I suppose that’s you agreeing [6/10/23, 12:22:13 am] Oli: Has he replied [6/10/23, 1:26:25 am] Oli: I went via Exeter because I am mad and saw people there for a few mins [6/10/23, 1:26:31 am] Oli: Now back onward! In normal direction [6/10/23, 1:27:19 am] Oli: This makes total sense. There’s no way they won’t assess it before giving it to others or even just presumably changing the tenancy to him(?). ‎[6/10/23, 10:58:39 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [6/10/23, 11:01:37 am] Sam: “Thereby changing the original arrangement i had with the landlord” - I mean, I’m sorry, but this is _perhaps_ why your arrangement shouldn’t have been to pretend, without my knowledge, that I was still living there????? [6/10/23, 9:57:39 pm] Oli: I agree and think it’s a mad sense of entitlement provoking these ridiculous spaghetti junctions of conversation. ‎[6/10/23, 9:57:51 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [6/10/23, 9:57:57 pm] Oli: Lift off soon! [6/10/23, 9:58:14 pm] Oli: Have you sorted it? Are you in a new place? [6/10/23, 9:58:14 pm] Sam: Oh god [6/10/23, 9:58:20 pm] Sam: Absit omen [6/10/23, 9:58:27 pm] Oli: It’s your favourite Italian! [6/10/23, 9:58:31 pm] Sam: Horresco referens [6/10/23, 9:58:41 pm] Sam: Andra moi ennepe [6/10/23, 9:58:55 pm] Sam: Polutropon kai mala polla something or other [6/10/23, 9:59:03 pm] Sam: Ok sorry [6/10/23, 9:59:12 pm] Sam: Mussolini? [6/10/23, 9:59:20 pm] Oli: He would like to be! [6/10/23, 9:59:39 pm] Sam: I’m guessing he’s more like the son-in-law [6/10/23, 10:01:29 pm] Oli: Tonsured coke [6/10/23, 10:01:31 pm] Oli: Madness [6/10/23, 10:01:33 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 [6/10/23, 10:22:55 pm] Sam: I …. something [6/10/23, 10:23:02 pm] Sam: NOP [6/10/23, 10:23:08 pm] Sam: /dev/null [6/10/23, 11:05:30 pm] Oli: 🤣 [6/10/23, 11:09:37 pm] Oli: Good idea ‎[7/10/23, 12:36:41 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[7/10/23, 12:36:41 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[7/10/23, 12:36:42 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [7/10/23, 12:38:49 am] Oli: Very good idea ‎[7/10/23, 12:38:53 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[7/10/23, 12:38:54 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [7/10/23, 12:40:22 am] Oli: McManus sounds somehow Oyrish! [7/10/23, 12:41:07 am] Oli: Proooils [7/10/23, 12:41:20 am] Oli: Proooooooooooils ‎[7/10/23, 12:42:00 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[7/10/23, 12:48:45 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 12:48:56 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[7/10/23, 12:59:05 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[7/10/23, 12:59:55 am] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[7/10/23, 1:52:12 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [7/10/23, 1:56:12 am] Oli: Must read that Tolstoyan marvel! HH to that! [7/10/23, 1:57:27 am] Sam: Yes you must! Better never than late! [7/10/23, 1:57:50 am] Oli: What then? [7/10/23, 1:57:52 am] Oli: Good idea! ‎[7/10/23, 1:57:54 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [7/10/23, 2:12:46 am] Sam: “All these messages he looked back on with bitter regret, as his imminent death stared him in the face.” ‎[7/10/23, 2:13:32 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:14:04 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:14:30 am] Sam: Indeed who can know when the Hooded One might come to lead him away? [7/10/23, 2:14:45 am] Oli: Hiding his tonsure with a hood! [7/10/23, 2:15:00 am] Oli: It would be divine providence ‎[7/10/23, 2:15:05 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [7/10/23, 2:15:26 am] Sam: I was thinking rather more specifically, but perhaps that’s true! ‎[7/10/23, 2:15:40 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:16:22 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:18:07 am] Sam: Well, no worries. This is just today. Tomorrow you’ll decide differently. Or eventually. Or— oh, hold that thought, someone’s tapping me on the shoulder— ‎[7/10/23, 2:20:00 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:20:57 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:22:30 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:23:06 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:24:07 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:24:56 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:25:34 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:26:54 am] Sam: Yes, someone at that party was telling me about the late Earl of Cadogan (relatively nice man by the sounds of it, having looked him up; died three months and zero days later) who sounded like a homosexual. Sad if he was. A brief glimmer of light between two eternities of darkness, that’s the reality, and most of us squander it as if we’re waiting for something better to come. ‎[7/10/23, 2:27:35 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:27:51 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:29:20 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:30:05 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:31:06 am] Sam: I don’t find him terribly hard. The later stuff is better. Dostoevsky’s ‘big’ novels are excellent. For me The Idiot and The Bros K - I read Crime & Punishment a while ago but for me sinning doesn’t feel like such a danger. But falsity and wasting of life is all too real. ‎[7/10/23, 2:32:01 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:32:19 am] Sam: The Gospel In Brief I admit I think is an excellent idea (and isn’t Xtianity really saying the same? whited sepulchres and all that) but I somehow felt the execution just … I didn’t like it. I was sorry I didn’t. [7/10/23, 2:36:53 am] Sam: But anyway, Ivan Ilyich, it’s a wonderful book. Shorter than most of Tolstoy and Dostoevsky, if you find them too longwinded. Novella in my eyes. Doubt it’ll be novel to you! ‎[7/10/23, 2:39:01 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:39:46 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:40:15 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:41:12 am] Sam: Buzz! Repetition! [7/10/23, 2:41:22 am] Sam: Repeated book [7/10/23, 2:41:33 am] Sam: Oh well, carry on ‎[7/10/23, 2:41:45 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:42:28 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:43:41 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:44:51 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:46:43 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:48:06 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:48:45 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:49:13 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:49:16 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:49:37 am] Sam: The annoying thing about voice messages is that I can’t scan them for the bits that aren’t dross ! ‎[7/10/23, 2:50:08 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:50:50 am] Sam: Yes, that is the problem ‎[7/10/23, 2:50:52 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:51:53 am] Sam: I think that rule has a corollary, which is that one ought to say something when one talks! ‎[7/10/23, 2:52:11 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:52:36 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:52:47 am] Sam: Ah well this is much more information dense! [7/10/23, 2:52:51 am] Sam: Good! [7/10/23, 2:53:07 am] Sam: Aim to maximise surprisal, or Shannon information ‎[7/10/23, 2:53:09 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:53:32 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:55:42 am] Sam: Indeed they propel themselves from womb to tomb by means of hot air ‎[7/10/23, 2:56:32 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:56:44 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:57:02 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:57:27 am] Sam: Said he with the discomfiture of a man throwing back hand grenades ‎[7/10/23, 2:57:49 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:58:09 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:58:23 am] Sam: ‘Succinct eulogy’ - one to scratch off my bingo card! ‎[7/10/23, 2:58:38 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 2:58:43 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 2:59:45 am] Sam: I remember how I used to go to more trouble preparing excuses for not doing my homework than it would have taken to actually do it ‎[7/10/23, 3:00:10 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 3:00:14 am] Sam: Anyway [7/10/23, 3:00:22 am] Sam: Enlightening though this has been [7/10/23, 3:00:26 am] Sam: I ought to do some work ‎[7/10/23, 3:00:31 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:00:35 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 3:00:38 am] Oli: Good idea [7/10/23, 3:00:50 am] Oli: It’s interesting how people can be productive at different times [7/10/23, 3:00:56 am] Oli: 3am is your time [7/10/23, 3:01:19 am] Sam: You did something?? [7/10/23, 3:01:29 am] Sam: 3am is definitely my time! ‎[7/10/23, 3:01:36 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 3:03:58 am] Sam: Still, something to go in the Rupert book! [7/10/23, 3:04:17 am] Sam: No, sorry, that feels a bit profane ‎[7/10/23, 3:04:33 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 3:05:01 am] Sam: But god it’s tragic to die and for the summing-up of your life to be nothing but an extended trailer for what you might’ve been ‎[7/10/23, 3:05:32 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:06:19 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 3:06:49 am] Sam: Never seen it! It reminds me of Wittgenstein, on his deathbed, saying - I think his last words - “tell them I’ve had a wonderful life” [7/10/23, 3:06:56 am] Sam: Very sweet somehow ‎[7/10/23, 3:07:31 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 3:07:46 am] Sam: I think the point is that he didn’t, and that’s why what might’ve been is all they had ‎[7/10/23, 3:08:05 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:09:15 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 3:09:43 am] Sam: I think the public policy concept you’re looking for is DALYs or QALYs, but what that’s really worth I don’t know ‎[7/10/23, 3:12:21 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:13:05 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:13:44 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:14:00 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 3:20:52 am] Sam: I think it’s true and expected that the drugs we’ve not banned are … not consistently the _worst_ (though alcohol is pretty close in terms of chronic harm) but very consistently the most addictive. I doubt if even heroin has anything on alcohol or nicotine or maybe even caffeine. Whether any of these things are _bad_ … well, it depends what they do to you, and what you like to have done. I don’t find that meth puts me in the same state that whatever you take puts you in. I wouldn’t like to be in that state. Of course, meth does some things that are unwelcome — it seems to heighten my manic tendencies, my ‘ADHD’ traits, but to me it’s worthwhile overall if I look at the last year of my life (which is about as long as I’ve been routinely taking it now). Like Kingsley Amis said, and I quoted last week: the question is “are you taking more out of it than it’s taking out of you?” [7/10/23, 3:26:24 am] Oli: Interesting [7/10/23, 3:26:31 am] Oli: And yes the last point is a good one. [7/10/23, 3:27:47 am] Sam: I think the trick is to confront life, confront death, and the rest will sort itself out. But not to live with one’s fingers stuck in one’s ears, wasting one’s 70 or 80-odd summers (at the outside) on inconsequential rubbish. [7/10/23, 3:31:09 am] Oli: Interesting. I’ve only just realised that yes, fucking hell, it must be only 70 or 80 summers if that’s the average lifespan (hello!). Each to their own. ‎[7/10/23, 3:31:47 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:32:40 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 3:32:46 am] Oli: Funny thoughts! [7/10/23, 3:32:51 am] Oli: The conveyor belt of time speeds up! [7/10/23, 3:32:57 am] Oli: I noticed the years passing quicker! [7/10/23, 3:32:59 am] Oli: Madness! [7/10/23, 3:33:18 am] Sam: Rightly, yes, and I suppose it’s that the _consequence_ is insignificant (interesting relation between _consequence_ (mass noun) and _consequences_ (count noun)) [7/10/23, 3:33:38 am] Sam: In ictu oculi ‎[7/10/23, 3:34:53 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:35:23 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:37:15 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:38:15 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:38:18 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 3:38:44 am] Sam: I’m oddly signed up to autism - I agree with Raz, I think it’s a distinctly nicer configuration [7/10/23, 3:39:23 am] Sam: If you’ve a moment I’d be keen to know what you think about Xerxes: https://aspergersvic.org.au/page-18136 [7/10/23, 3:39:28 am] Sam: Xander, not Xerxes ‎[7/10/23, 3:39:49 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 3:39:54 am] Sam: Xander the Very Good [7/10/23, 3:40:14 am] Sam: Persian king I think [7/10/23, 3:40:30 am] Sam: Thermopylae etc ‎[7/10/23, 3:40:34 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 3:42:13 am] Sam: What do you think about your father and paternal grandfather? It very commonly runs down the male line, or whatever the phrase is (and I can definitely see it in my dad and dad^2) ‎[7/10/23, 3:42:56 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:43:09 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:43:49 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:44:08 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:45:14 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 3:45:42 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 3:48:50 am] Sam: I’m going to need a summary of this because I’m already splitting my time between writing code and sucking my dick (not referring to my WhatsApp messages) 🤪 [7/10/23, 3:49:17 am] Sam: Productive 4am sessions! [7/10/23, 3:49:33 am] Oli: Amazing flexibility! [7/10/23, 3:50:29 am] Sam: I know, I’m a natural at multitasking! ‎[7/10/23, 4:25:01 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [7/10/23, 6:42:34 pm] Sam: Interesting about your grandfather - I get the sense he doesn’t strike you as so clearly autistic. Maybe it’s a recessive trait? I’m not so au fait with the genetics of autism. [7/10/23, 6:44:50 pm] Sam: I also don’t know about the maternal influence. Very possibly the mother’s genes have some influence, in which case by applying Bayes’s theorem it would seem that your having it would weakly suggest her having it. [7/10/23, 6:50:59 pm] Sam: I’m less expert on that one because it’s so inapplicable in my case. Well… My mum herself definitely doesn’t strike me as the autistic sort (more the head girl sort, judo champion as mentioned before, etc). My maternal grandfather may well have been. I think I mentioned the stories of him going to those sorta country house parties and always being identified as the ‘lord of the manor’ on the basis that nobody else could possibly be so badly/indifferently dressed (tie for a belt etc). Or sending my grandmother out to buy towels when the pound crashed or something like that, having for some unknown reason calculated that towels would be necessary in an apocalypse (Douglas Adams? idk though). Or sending his company helicopter to airlift my mum home from Normandy - in Slapian fashion but to her total mortification - when she was homesick on a school trip. Etc etc. [7/10/23, 6:52:56 pm] Sam: (I can definitely see traces of myself in those stories, especially the towels one… He had that kind of brain, I think same as me, that Silicon Valley parodied very well in their Peter Thiel character who was killed off after s.1 when the actor sadly died: https://youtu.be/KUxMY77i0q4) ‎[7/10/23, 8:41:08 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [7/10/23, 8:41:13 pm] Oli: Shall go over these in a moment good idea [7/10/23, 8:45:55 pm] Sam: Türkiye* ‎[7/10/23, 8:46:05 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 8:46:07 pm] Sam: Also, Turkey? Where and wherefore? ‎[7/10/23, 8:46:27 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[7/10/23, 8:46:35 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 8:46:37 pm] Sam: I have no idea what you’re saying [7/10/23, 8:46:47 pm] Oli: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kekova [7/10/23, 8:46:50 pm] Oli: Welcome in Turkey [7/10/23, 8:46:52 pm] Oli: Turkish [7/10/23, 8:46:59 pm] Oli: For two weeks! [7/10/23, 8:47:06 pm] Oli: Some family friends and godmother going there [7/10/23, 8:47:08 pm] Oli: Will be fun! [7/10/23, 8:48:50 pm] Oli: Tomorrow night we stay in a place called Gocek, in Fetiyhe, to break up the journey. Also quite nice. But not as nice as the charming Kekova! (Actuslly strictly speaking the island opposite where we stay) [7/10/23, 8:49:36 pm] Sam: Do you go often? Do you have some connection to the country? Are you planning to join ISIS? [7/10/23, 8:53:44 pm] Sam: You could also join the Taliban. Kam Air flies from Turkey (Istanbul though) to Kabul Airport. Turkey is one of the few countries to retain a consulate and maybe a full embassy in Kabul. It’s very popular with Afghan refugees (the poorer ones cross the Balkans, the richer hop on a boat usually to Italy) though our old friend Erdogan has recently started beating them back into Iran, under pressure from the lower classes who, as anywhere, don’t really welcome their presence. ‎[7/10/23, 8:54:20 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [7/10/23, 8:54:21 pm] Sam: How is the Gulenist situation going? I’m very disappointed in the way the Turkey is going, tbqh. [7/10/23, 8:54:40 pm] Sam: Turkey, not the Turkey, dammit [7/10/23, 8:54:45 pm] Oli: Once a year! Grandpa used to go twice a year! [7/10/23, 8:55:29 pm] Oli: Just lots of friends used to go. Grandpa’s friend introduced him to this area in 1997. He was ambassador (British man our man in Ankara) but died a few months ago! Now just being eaten underground. Good idea ‎[7/10/23, 8:57:00 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 8:57:57 pm] Oli: Ah! I think some locals in the area we go to (beautiful but by all accounts provincial and backward if one were a Turk) support that. [7/10/23, 8:58:03 pm] Oli: I should try and subtly find out! [7/10/23, 9:11:10 pm] Sam: Odd. It’s definitely one of the stranger bedfellows of the West (i.e. the US and its lackeys), along with Fatah in Palestine and the Northern Alliance (or whatever the fuck its now called) in Afghanistan and the PKK in Syria, which last group of course intersects weirdly with Turkey. I have friends/acquaintances fighting with the PKK in Syria who practically aren’t allowed to pick up a gun except in very tightly defined circumstances against Syrian (or formerly ISIS) personnel, because otherwise the US get very touchy because they have a strange fiction that they can support the PKK on the Syrian side but not in its other front, i.e. its much older conflict with Turkey. [7/10/23, 9:58:06 pm] Sam: No strong opinions? Haha ‎[7/10/23, 9:58:49 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [7/10/23, 10:01:45 pm] Sam: I think it’s all one territory, right? It straddles Turkey and Syria (and Iraq and Iran). They basically are fighting on several sides. [7/10/23, 10:02:03 pm] Sam: As in several geometric sides, not several opposing factions. [7/10/23, 10:02:55 pm] Sam: They aren’t by any means perfect, but in the horror show that is the Syrian Civil War they are pretty much the only decent faction (which wasn’t enough to stop Trump abandoning them for one reason or another, possibly under pressure from Turkey). ‎[7/10/23, 10:05:41 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [7/10/23, 10:05:48 pm] Sam: Most people who wanted to get involved fighting ISIS did so with the Kurds, i.e. the PKK or officially the YPG (an affiliated organisation which is basically a cutout so the US can back them against Syria and pretend that they aren’t the same organisation fighting the Turkish govt on the Turkish side). [7/10/23, 10:07:57 pm] Sam: At least that’s the organisation that people I know went to fight with (one now dead). They are solid. The US-backed Peshmerga, which is Iraqi Kurds, was seemingly less solid against ISIS. I think they had skirmishes between themselves (PKK/YPG and Peshmerga) but I don’t understand the internal dynamics of the Kurdish militant groups well enough to say what their disagreements are. But different regions of Kurdistan at least. [7/10/23, 10:09:08 pm] Sam: Oh I see what you mean. Interesting. I haven’t met many Kurds here. I guess many must have fled because they have a habit of being genocided (by ISIS, by the Syrian govt, famously by the Iraqi govt under Mr Hussein, etc). [7/10/23, 10:24:37 pm] Sam: That’s another way you can help, actually, if you’re at such a loose end. You can fight with the PKK in Syria. I’m not sure if you’re much good with a Kalashnikov, but you’ll pick it up quickly enough. And you drive, right? Drivers are surprisingly useful. I have a friend who runs guns and medical kit to the west of Ukraine through Poland. (I’ve only been involved to the extent of connecting him with rich people, since it’s quite an expensive procedure.) It’s done under cover of a Ukrainian govt cultural body (keeping detail to a minimum over text). Most of his guys are ex-military, but if you were willing and able just to drive then I could make an introduction and see where it goes. So two options there! ‎[8/10/23, 1:04:20 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [8/10/23, 1:04:21 am] Oli: Just going upstairs t’ pack then more. Right! [8/10/23, 1:15:52 am] Sam: God almighty… That woman could be spotted as a dipso if she gave a radio interview - it’s like it deinnervates your lips. She can’t quite distinguish her labiodental consonants! [8/10/23, 1:16:27 am] Sam: Also you should talk to Alex Camm about that, since his aunt and uncle did the same apparently. Well, grew a lot of pot in their house. [8/10/23, 1:16:31 am] Sam: Actually, one sec ‎[8/10/23, 1:17:12 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [8/10/23, 1:20:19 am] Sam: I’d be very very careful in countries like Turkey, incidentally. I have a distant cousin who figured it would be a good idea to post his leftover weed back home while in Ceylon. Got caught. Sentenced to well over 10 years (can’t remember the exact number). Not fun! ‎[8/10/23, 1:21:10 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[8/10/23, 1:22:11 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [8/10/23, 1:22:16 am] Sam: The worst are the Southeast Asian islands. Periodically there’s a white person or people, usually Australian, who tries to smuggle heroin or something serious like that, and gets caught and sentenced to death, and Australia or wherever kicks up a fuss and has candlelight vigils and it doesn’t make a blind bit of difference and they’re hanged at dawn. Many many such cases. It’s tediously predictable. ‎[8/10/23, 1:22:46 am] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[8/10/23, 1:23:07 am] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[8/10/23, 1:23:37 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [8/10/23, 1:24:02 am] Oli: Yes they are mad on prison in Turkey [8/10/23, 1:24:15 am] Oli: We had a friend who was imprisoned for laying down concrete in a restricted area [8/10/23, 1:24:28 am] Oli: For minor offences you can choose when to go to clink [8/10/23, 1:24:49 am] Sam: Ah, and they fled? [8/10/23, 1:24:49 am] Oli: So naturally they choose out of summer [8/10/23, 1:24:58 am] Oli: I.e. not tourist season [8/10/23, 1:25:04 am] Sam: Oh [8/10/23, 1:25:05 am] Oli: Haha that doesn’t seem to be in their psyche [8/10/23, 1:25:09 am] Oli: At least not minor crimes [8/10/23, 1:25:59 am] Sam: Ridiculous not to. Most countries pretty seldom extradite, even when they have treaties. It’s pretty wild if you read up on it. Even weaker countries who are firmly allied with [usually it’s the US] seem to get away with it. [8/10/23, 1:26:17 am] Sam: I think it’s perhaps that there are few crimes that are a big enough deal for anyone to care. [8/10/23, 1:27:43 am] Sam: And then when it’s the other way around, eg that kid Harry Dunn who was run over by the ‘diplomat’s wife’ (read: fuckin obviously worked for the Agency) Anne Sacoolas, there’s not a fucking chance in hell. Haha, I remember with that case the US - Pompeo at the time iirc - actually told us off for daring to prosecute her even in absentia. [8/10/23, 1:27:53 am] Oli: That was madness! [8/10/23, 1:28:30 am] Sam: Yup - poor family but it was never going to go down any other way [8/10/23, 1:28:33 am] Oli: Good idea [8/10/23, 1:28:36 am] Oli: Jamming for her [8/10/23, 1:28:38 am] Oli: Haile Selassie [8/10/23, 1:28:40 am] Oli: Raaaaight [8/10/23, 1:28:41 am] Oli: 420 [8/10/23, 1:28:43 am] Oli: Jah live [8/10/23, 1:28:44 am] Sam: By US standards she probably wouldn’t have lost her licence [8/10/23, 1:29:35 am] Sam: Like, seriously, my aunt and uncle had to re-qualify when they moved to LA (California’s driving test is actually among the harder ones) and they said pretty much as long as you could find your way into the car then you’d pass. [8/10/23, 1:29:58 am] Sam: But yeah, wild, that case [8/10/23, 1:30:11 am] Sam: I think it ended with her giving a video statement from her office when she was found guilty [8/10/23, 1:30:38 am] Sam: Which is obviously pathetic, but it’s so standard that it may well have gone down the same if one of our guys had done it in the States (though with a bit less arrogance perhaps) ‎[8/10/23, 1:31:52 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [8/10/23, 1:32:00 am] Oli: That it was’ [8/10/23, 1:32:03 am] Oli: Very much! [8/10/23, 1:32:38 am] Sam: Haha I’ve got to find a video, one sec ‎[8/10/23, 1:33:52 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [8/10/23, 1:38:50 am] Oli: Ah yes they firing squad them actually [8/10/23, 1:38:53 am] Oli: Etc ‎[8/10/23, 1:39:54 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [8/10/23, 1:59:12 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. ‎[8/10/23, 2:02:23 am] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[8/10/23, 2:05:59 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[8/10/23, 2:15:07 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [8/10/23, 2:16:42 am] Sam: Oh I give up on finding this bloody video [8/10/23, 2:16:45 am] Sam: What a waste of time [8/10/23, 2:16:53 am] Oli: Bloody ‘ell ‘einrich [8/10/23, 2:16:54 am] Sam: Why do I get such unbelievable tunnel vision [8/10/23, 2:16:56 am] Sam: Staggering [8/10/23, 2:16:58 am] Oli: I should give up on packing too [8/10/23, 2:17:01 am] Oli: But [8/10/23, 2:17:05 am] Oli: Normal for life [8/10/23, 2:17:08 am] Sam: Completely pointless, wouldn’t have been worth 10 seconds looking really [8/10/23, 2:17:16 am] Oli: Cue point here [8/10/23, 2:17:18 am] Oli: Raaaight [8/10/23, 2:17:26 am] Sam: It’s far and away the wildest ADHD symptom of mine - probably the only genuinely pathological one [8/10/23, 2:17:32 am] Sam: Is a complete madness for the hunt [8/10/23, 2:17:34 am] Oli: Haha [8/10/23, 2:17:49 am] Sam: Whether it’s literally, like running all over London in the sixth form trying five dealers in a row… [8/10/23, 2:18:02 am] Sam: One sec ‎[8/10/23, 2:18:26 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [8/10/23, 2:18:37 am] Sam: Literally iterating across London, lol [8/10/23, 2:18:42 am] Sam: Or whether looking for a video [8/10/23, 2:18:58 am] Oli: Productive sixth form [8/10/23, 2:18:59 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [8/10/23, 2:19:02 am] Sam: Or whether going totally mad because I’ve decided to pick up meth, even though I don’t actually need any, because I’ve decided [8/10/23, 2:19:27 am] Oli: Yes like bloody tonsured coke [8/10/23, 2:19:29 am] Oli: Madness [8/10/23, 2:20:25 am] Sam: Or whether trying to think of the name of a theorem of algebraic homotopy concerning discrete space-filling curves, as I was earlier [8/10/23, 2:20:47 am] Sam: Quite [8/10/23, 2:20:59 am] Oli: Do you mean to say that some don’t try and think about this? [8/10/23, 2:21:44 am] Sam: Well, a particular theorem [8/10/23, 2:21:51 am] Sam: I still can’t remember the bloody name [8/10/23, 2:22:05 am] Sam: Ahhhh fuck it’s Netto’s theorem [8/10/23, 2:22:11 am] Sam: What my parents said is right [8/10/23, 2:22:31 am] Sam: Namely that - as apparently Freud says - the key is to stop thinking about it, and it’ll occur to you later at a random moment [8/10/23, 2:22:44 am] Sam: I have to say there’s a fuck load that Freud got right [8/10/23, 2:22:53 am] Sam: However on earth he did his workings [8/10/23, 2:23:09 am] Sam: Anyway [8/10/23, 2:23:11 am] Sam: Turkey [8/10/23, 2:23:19 am] Sam: Major disappointment the way things are going [8/10/23, 2:23:32 am] Sam: Ataturk [8/10/23, 2:23:34 am] Sam: Great chap [8/10/23, 2:23:44 am] Sam: Where the fuck have they gone since [8/10/23, 2:23:53 am] Sam: I thought the army was meant to step in at times like this ‎ [8/10/23, 2:24:03 am] Sam: I distinctly remember - [8/10/23, 2:24:08 am] Sam: speaking of the left - [8/10/23, 2:24:12 am] Oli: This should be your WhatsApp profile picture. Forget that TV ad ‘get the London look’: get the Kingsley look. [8/10/23, 2:24:19 am] Oli: Mustafa Kemal pasha [8/10/23, 2:24:22 am] Sam: My friend Berk, Berk the Turk, whose dad came over here from Turkey [8/10/23, 2:24:26 am] Sam: As an atheist [8/10/23, 2:24:39 am] Sam: Saying that he’d fled Turkey because of all the religious fanatics [8/10/23, 2:24:49 am] Sam: Lunatic clerics etc [8/10/23, 2:25:04 am] Sam: And come here only to find our ‘liberals’ praising the very people he’d fled [8/10/23, 2:25:25 am] Sam: And I was quite struck by that - that stuck with me [8/10/23, 2:25:35 am] Sam: Bloody understandable [8/10/23, 2:26:32 am] Sam: Not that I’m not of the left, but jesus it’s a set of values and maybe an economic analysis, it’s not a fucking catechism [8/10/23, 2:26:43 am] Sam: Some people really don’t fucking think [8/10/23, 2:26:50 am] Sam: Eg today with the Palestine situation [8/10/23, 2:27:02 am] Oli: Hava nagila hava [8/10/23, 2:27:06 am] Oli: 🇮🇱 [8/10/23, 2:27:08 am] Oli: Hava nagila! [8/10/23, 2:27:10 am] Oli: 🥸🥸🥸 [8/10/23, 2:27:17 am] Sam: Defending Palestinians, or even Gazans, does not require defending Hamas [8/10/23, 2:27:34 am] Oli: Eh bah gum! ‘ello ‘einrich! [8/10/23, 2:27:45 am] Sam: Hell, the same way that defending Jews, or even Israelis, does not require defending Likud/Netanyahu [8/10/23, 2:28:01 am] Sam: Well, you’ll like Hamas [8/10/23, 2:28:07 am] Oli: Driver says “I ad that Heinrich Immler in the back of my cab once” [8/10/23, 2:28:07 am] Oli: And e told me e was a chicken farmer would you Adam’n’Eve it [8/10/23, 2:28:07 am] Oli: That’s normal [8/10/23, 2:28:15 am] Oli: Pro Hamas taxi driver [8/10/23, 2:30:05 am] Sam: Also does fucking ANYONE actually believe in free speech [8/10/23, 2:30:44 am] Sam: These idiot Tory people bang on about it all the time, and then the second someone so much as cheers for Hamas in London they want to lock them all up [8/10/23, 2:31:51 am] Sam: All as fucking stupid as each other - they bloody well deserve to get what they want [8/10/23, 2:34:09 am] Sam: Who was it again who said the best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with an average voter? Probably Mencken or someone like that. Well, he was bloody well right. [8/10/23, 2:34:35 am] Oli: Yes heard that [8/10/23, 2:34:38 am] Oli: Was it Churchill [8/10/23, 2:35:02 am] Sam: Nah too cynical for Churchill I suspect [8/10/23, 2:35:04 am] Sam: But maybe [8/10/23, 2:35:06 am] Sam: Let’s see [8/10/23, 2:36:25 am] Oli: Was indeed Mr Churchill [8/10/23, 2:36:27 am] Oli: Good idea [8/10/23, 2:36:52 am] Sam: Seems apocryphal from what I can see, tho definitely Churchill is the main person it’s attributed to [8/10/23, 2:37:01 am] Oli: Probably apocryphal [8/10/23, 2:37:05 am] Oli: Lots of these things are [8/10/23, 2:38:00 am] Sam: Probably it’s some random fucking ‘orator’ or something from some Victorian book of Prudent Quotations for the Well-Rounded Man, and some random guy who wrote an op-ed has stuck Churchill’s name onto it and it’s stuck [8/10/23, 2:41:25 am] Sam: Because it just won’t do if it’s John M Everett, Free Silver campaigner (n. 1807, d. 1882), spoken at a campaign speech to the Philadelphia Working Men’s League in 1879 [8/10/23, 2:41:44 am] Sam: (I just made that up, that’s not the actual source (probably)) [8/10/23, 2:47:44 am] Sam: Also I wasn’t joking here! Turkey in particular has quite a good rule, or convention, that the military steps in (third-world-style) to overthrow rulers but only if they violate or threaten the basic Ataturkian constitution of the country [8/10/23, 2:48:11 am] Sam: I think it’s called Ataturkcilik or something like that [8/10/23, 2:48:43 am] Sam: Anyway clearly the military has been on holiday or asleep or something [8/10/23, 6:21:35 pm] Sam: Just read this while trying to remember whether you wanted to go to Syria or Ukraine. Good point about Ceylon - totally unintentional, just force of habit from my grandma who’s also inconsistent with it. I wonder if it’s like the way my other grandma will occasionally lapse into German without realising she’s doing it, when talking about something very familiar or deep in her unconscious or memory or suchlike. [8/10/23, 6:24:48 pm] Sam: With my grandma if she says Sri Lanka it’s always in a slightly theatrical and ironic way. Or that’s my vague recollection. (Eg she makes a point of referring to Bombay mix - great staple of my childhood - as Mumbai mix. I think Mumbai Sapphire has been mentioned too, since she drinks that crap. Christ how does anyone think that’s a good gin? Tanqueray too! For that matter why does anyone think gin is a good drink at all?) ‎[8/10/23, 9:05:49 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [9/10/23, 12:39:30 am] Oli: I must look this up! [9/10/23, 12:40:16 am] Oli: Have heard a bit about this I think but didn’t know the name [9/10/23, 12:40:48 am] Oli: I love Bombay mix too [9/10/23, 12:41:10 am] Oli: Mumbai Sapphire! I like that crap too! [9/10/23, 12:41:24 am] Oli: The gin craze… funny business! I read about it recently. [9/10/23, 12:42:25 am] Oli: There does seem to be a lot of equivocation on these matters [9/10/23, 12:42:30 am] Oli: It’s a bloody minefield [9/10/23, 12:43:09 am] Oli: 02:42 here! Am halfway there! In hotel now and tomorrow 2 hour taxi journey further east! [9/10/23, 12:43:49 am] Oli: It’s basically in the centre not near Syria at all though the big motorway esque road is so long it eventually goes to Syria: the D400 [9/10/23, 12:44:25 am] Oli: Near ‘Attaturk Blv’ at the moment appropriately [9/10/23, 11:02:14 am] Oli: ‎Location: https://maps.google.com/?q=36.689545,29.093712 [9/10/23, 11:02:23 am] Oli: This road goes all t’way t’ Syria!! [9/10/23, 11:02:40 am] Oli: And on another Attaturk Blv I see. They’re everywhere ‎[9/10/23, 11:18:56 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [9/10/23, 11:23:08 am] Oli: Our Paul might’ve taken t’ coastal route [9/10/23, 1:19:24 pm] Sam: Did it work? 👀 ‎[9/10/23, 1:20:19 pm] Sam: ‎video omitted ‎[9/10/23, 2:13:54 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [9/10/23, 2:14:08 pm] Oli: We got caught up in the Tour of Türkiye [9/10/23, 2:14:10 pm] Oli: Some cycling tour [9/10/23, 2:14:25 pm] Oli: Well… supposedly! 🤣 ‎[9/10/23, 2:16:28 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [9/10/23, 2:18:18 pm] Oli: Lovely dog! ‎[9/10/23, 3:32:08 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[9/10/23, 3:32:42 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [9/10/23, 5:02:06 pm] Sam: Ah, that’ll be the latest Bethnal Green school trip! [9/10/23, 5:03:59 pm] Sam: Is that a stray cat?? Poor little guy 😕 [9/10/23, 5:04:57 pm] Sam: I’m too soft-hearted - my mind has instantly started planning out how to effect an international rescue [9/10/23, 5:08:24 pm] Sam: This is why I grimly think that catch-and-kill shelters are probably necessary, especially in those countries. It’s too much to bear thinking about, but the reality is that if it had been done maybe 5 years ago then that cat and many other cats wouldn’t have been born into the grim existence that’s written for them… Catch-and-spay at the very least. ‎[9/10/23, 5:21:22 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [9/10/23, 7:21:36 pm] Oli: The person in the spare room?! [9/10/23, 7:21:38 pm] Oli: Good idea!! [9/10/23, 7:21:43 pm] Oli: In your new place ‎[9/10/23, 7:26:56 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [9/10/23, 7:26:56 pm] Oli: Grandpa telling oyrish peer wife (who just laughed at glomming) about how he wants to look like he was eaten then brought up rather than brought up at Mr FIRSOV’S school… [9/10/23, 7:27:13 pm] Oli: That a joke about Firsov by the way but he has this identity 🤣🤣 [9/10/23, 7:27:23 pm] Oli: Cyprus is bad for cats too [9/10/23, 7:27:29 pm] Oli: I used to get upset by that too [9/10/23, 7:32:43 pm] Oli: Lots of British pissheads like here [9/10/23, 7:32:48 pm] Oli: It’s like a colonial club [9/10/23, 7:32:52 pm] Oli: Turkey [9/10/23, 7:38:40 pm] Sam: Sorry, your grandfather’s wife is a peer? But he isn’t? And what school was Firsov sent to? [9/10/23, 7:39:20 pm] Sam: Nowadays you’re _well adjusted_! [9/10/23, 7:41:10 pm] Oli: No his friend married Lord Rennell [9/10/23, 7:41:16 pm] Oli: Firsov is an Etonian ‎[9/10/23, 7:43:01 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [9/10/23, 7:44:15 pm] Sam: I’m sorry, I’m quite lost, this woman is Lord Rennell? Or is ‘Irish peer’ in the genitive somehow, in some strange variant of the English language? [9/10/23, 7:44:31 pm] Oli: Married to a British peer [9/10/23, 7:44:34 pm] Oli: I said oyrish friend [9/10/23, 7:44:39 pm] Sam: Ah yes, that’ll impress Uncle Monty! [9/10/23, 7:44:39 pm] Oli: Oh [9/10/23, 7:44:43 pm] Oli: Oyrish wife of peer [9/10/23, 7:44:45 pm] Oli: Not very good [9/10/23, 7:44:52 pm] Sam: Oh I see [9/10/23, 7:44:52 pm] Oli: Oyrish meaning Irish 🤣 [9/10/23, 7:45:04 pm] Sam: Ah ok [9/10/23, 7:45:17 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [9/10/23, 7:45:20 pm] Oli: Quite apt [9/10/23, 7:45:24 pm] Sam: And what school did Firsov actually attend? I’m a bit lost [9/10/23, 7:45:27 pm] Oli: As most Irish people pronounce it [9/10/23, 7:45:46 pm] Sam: Yes I’ve annoyed many of my Irish friends about the accents [9/10/23, 7:45:48 pm] Oli: Yes firsov went to state school in St Albans [9/10/23, 7:45:52 pm] Oli: He pretends to be an Etonian [9/10/23, 7:45:55 pm] Oli: Has some comedy about it [9/10/23, 7:45:59 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 ‎[9/10/23, 7:46:25 pm] Sam: ‎video omitted [9/10/23, 7:47:04 pm] Sam: Is this a joke? I’d assume this were true if it weren’t the same place as Slape [9/10/23, 7:48:39 pm] Oli: Haha he went to school in Devon and Scunthorpe and St Albans [9/10/23, 7:48:45 pm] Oli: And Cambridge [9/10/23, 7:48:49 pm] Oli: His parents refugees from Russia [9/10/23, 7:48:54 pm] Oli: They settled in St Albans in the end [9/10/23, 7:49:24 pm] Sam: He went to school in Cambridge? Or university? If school, where? [9/10/23, 7:49:24 pm] Oli: Not Scunthorpe stoke on Trent [9/10/23, 7:49:26 pm] Oli: All seems the same [9/10/23, 7:49:33 pm] Sam: Like I said, my mum did go state for sixth form [9/10/23, 7:49:38 pm] Sam: And her sisters went to diff places [9/10/23, 7:49:43 pm] Oli: School [9/10/23, 7:49:43 pm] Oli: Parents were fellows of some college [9/10/23, 7:49:43 pm] Oli: Not sure on exact school [9/10/23, 7:49:46 pm] Sam: So I wonder if it’s somewhere I’ve herded of [9/10/23, 7:49:49 pm] Sam: Heard of even [9/10/23, 7:50:02 pm] Oli: I must ask [9/10/23, 7:50:03 pm] Oli: I wonder! [9/10/23, 7:50:09 pm] Sam: Ah interesting, like my grandparents! Do you know which? [9/10/23, 7:50:34 pm] Sam: Clare and Queens for mine [9/10/23, 7:50:52 pm] Sam: My grandpa went to Trinity but I think it was only Clare he ever, uh, fellowed at [9/10/23, 7:51:06 pm] Sam: Sister is now at Clare for her PhD in his honour, haha [9/10/23, 7:52:05 pm] Sam: Sorry, I don’t know why I’m suddenly interrogating you about Firsov! [9/10/23, 7:53:55 pm] Sam: It’s not in a Slapian way, I’m just locked out and (somehow, in the outside world) going stir crazy - I’ve walked down to South Harrow (genuine both-hands-on-phone territory) to a McDonald’s (you get the picture) and they have no fucking plug sockets to charge my Juul, and I’m unsure if I can even smoke meth in their toilets ‎[9/10/23, 7:54:47 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [9/10/23, 7:54:56 pm] Oli: Brit passport stitching is red white and blue [9/10/23, 7:55:04 pm] Oli: Oyrish is green white and yellow ‎[9/10/23, 7:55:06 pm] Sam: ‎video omitted [9/10/23, 7:55:10 pm] Oli: Or yellow [9/10/23, 7:55:23 pm] Oli: Just gettin pissed with funny people but shall try n attend in moment [9/10/23, 7:55:58 pm] Sam: Wait, stitching? I’ve seen Damien’s passport and you could easily mistake it for my burgundy British passport except for the front cover [9/10/23, 7:55:59 pm] Oli: They are depressing [9/10/23, 7:56:04 pm] Oli: No stitching [9/10/23, 7:56:05 pm] Oli: Inside [9/10/23, 7:56:06 pm] Oli: The stitches [9/10/23, 7:56:12 pm] Sam: Not just slightly but extraordinarily and potently so [9/10/23, 7:56:27 pm] Sam: Far beyond any other alimentary establishment [9/10/23, 7:56:44 pm] Sam: Oh, I don’t think I’ve ever really looked [9/10/23, 7:57:15 pm] Oli: Stitching in middle of passport ‎[9/10/23, 7:57:49 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[9/10/23, 7:57:52 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [9/10/23, 7:58:07 pm] Oli: Look at the threads [9/10/23, 7:58:11 pm] Oli: The threads in the middle [9/10/23, 7:58:14 pm] Oli: Here [9/10/23, 7:58:16 pm] Sam: Oh yeah, the whole thing is such a ghastly mélange of colours that my eyes can’t quite make it out [9/10/23, 7:58:26 pm] Sam: Wait gimme one minute to escape this fucking place ‎[9/10/23, 9:23:15 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 9:27:32 pm] Oli: Hahaha ‎[9/10/23, 9:36:50 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 9:37:12 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 9:37:21 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 9:38:09 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 9:47:10 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[9/10/23, 9:47:10 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 9:47:11 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 10:22:54 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [9/10/23, 10:23:32 pm] Sam: Sweet! That one looks happy and healthy! [9/10/23, 10:23:56 pm] Oli: Literally fucking laughing aloud [9/10/23, 10:24:01 pm] Oli: He is just so compliant [9/10/23, 10:24:03 pm] Oli: I am screaming [9/10/23, 10:24:06 pm] Oli: Right now [9/10/23, 10:24:10 pm] Oli: Waking the Turks up [9/10/23, 10:25:06 pm] Sam: Wait, I’m sorry, do you have it with English subtitles for the hard of bearing? [9/10/23, 10:25:20 pm] Sam: (sic) ‎[9/10/23, 10:25:20 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 10:25:37 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 10:25:49 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 10:25:51 pm] Sam: No, subtitles for the deaf, not audio description for the blind [9/10/23, 10:26:05 pm] Sam: You’ve already made provision for the dumb, I’m grateful for that ‎[9/10/23, 10:26:07 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 10:27:09 pm] Sam: He doesn’t mind it for the same reason I don’t mind being accused by Damien of having bad hair - because I don’t care about my hair, and neither does he ‎[9/10/23, 10:32:51 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 10:33:09 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 10:33:21 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 10:59:10 pm] Oli: Yes He clearly doesn’t care [9/10/23, 10:59:16 pm] Oli: As evinced by his shining pate [9/10/23, 10:59:19 pm] Oli: 👴🏻 [9/10/23, 10:59:22 pm] Oli: 🥵🥵 [9/10/23, 10:59:24 pm] Oli: LOOOOL [9/10/23, 10:59:27 pm] Oli: good idea ‎[9/10/23, 10:59:47 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 10:59:57 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:00:36 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:00:51 pm] Sam: I can’t parse this one, and I long for the day when the invention of the written alphabet might reach your people ‎[9/10/23, 11:00:57 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:01:26 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:01:49 pm] Sam: But no, sorry, I meant when he was having his deranged night of shouting, haha - I think one of his points was that my hair, which I had just bleached, looked bad [9/10/23, 11:02:24 pm] Sam: And it did indeed look bad! And I thought so myself, and I think I said so in reply [9/10/23, 11:04:00 pm] Sam: Funnily enough I remember slightly later that night I was getting my shoes on to go and get a new meth pipe, and Damien was still in pique mode and (his brain having had time to reoxygenate and think of some new ideas) was shouting about my weird and embarrassing period of developing a crush on him for a few weeks back in Paddington [9/10/23, 11:04:12 pm] Sam: Which he said was pathetic [9/10/23, 11:04:29 pm] Sam: And it was indeed pathetic, and I agreed, and was laughing about it with him [9/10/23, 11:05:31 pm] Sam: Because I don’t care!! And nor does Kingsley! Though Damien was (I think undeniably) sincerely not holding back, was trying to make the harshest points he could, and you’re not really ‎[9/10/23, 11:01:38 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:01:51 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:01:56 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:08:12 pm] Sam: https://instagram.com/p/Cgw2WbOjRrx/ - my instagram comments, which I’d been laughing about a few days before with Damien, which in some strange semi-logical semi-bizarre way must have been what made him think of it as a possible insult to experiment with, haha [9/10/23, 11:09:03 pm] Sam: Anyway sorry, hair-wise it was just badly bleached - my hair seems to be well rated or whatever, tho I don’t really know in what way hair can be all that good or all that bad ‎[9/10/23, 11:09:17 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:09:31 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:09:51 pm] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [9/10/23, 11:10:01 pm] Oli: As one should [9/10/23, 11:10:07 pm] Sam: I thought the same about the human ass, or arse or whatever - not the load-bearing equid - until I saw one guy on Grindr who just had the most beautiful ass I had ever seen [9/10/23, 11:10:24 pm] Oli: Remember him saying it at the time [9/10/23, 11:10:28 pm] Sam: Until then mostly either ‘eh, looks approximately normal’ or ‘eugh jesus why would you photograph this’ [9/10/23, 11:10:31 pm] Oli: God idea [9/10/23, 11:10:32 pm] Oli: Good ‎[9/10/23, 11:10:53 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:10:59 pm] Sam: At what time? You mean that night? Or last year? Oddly I don’t remember his being very aware of it last year (though that’s probably for the best, I don’t know what I was thinking) ‎[9/10/23, 11:11:03 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:11:16 pm] Sam: Sorry, I didn’t mean that to sound so insulting and petty - I don’t know quite what I meant ‎[9/10/23, 11:11:20 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:11:35 pm] Oli: I agree and it was bad form Of him [9/10/23, 11:11:53 pm] Sam: I think it’s more the nature of my relationship with him (in the general sense) that makes it feel a bit odd, not really anything about him in particular ‎[9/10/23, 11:12:00 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:12:19 pm] Sam: My main point in that message was the other end of the sentence! ‎[9/10/23, 11:12:20 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:12:38 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:12:39 pm] Sam: Kingsley doesn’t care and you know he doesn’t care, and why would he ‎[9/10/23, 11:12:42 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:12:46 pm] Oli: He finds it funny [9/10/23, 11:12:57 pm] Oli: He laughs about ‘tonsure’ Which I started re him [9/10/23, 11:13:01 pm] Oli: But I agree [9/10/23, 11:13:10 pm] Oli: Though find it funny [9/10/23, 11:13:17 pm] Oli: They all laugh like 5 year olds [9/10/23, 11:13:18 pm] Oli: Lol [9/10/23, 11:13:30 pm] Sam: He laughs about the difference between Horatian and Juvenalian satire ‎[9/10/23, 11:13:52 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:13:55 pm] Sam: Gay rather than grave, in Cowper’s words ‎[9/10/23, 11:15:27 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:15:34 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:16:50 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:17:38 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:18:52 pm] Sam: No, if you wanted to _rem acu tangere_ (great gin!) you’d say he’s a craven and vaguely Powellian social climber with no dignity or self-respect [9/10/23, 11:19:03 pm] Sam: Or some other such point [9/10/23, 11:19:13 pm] Sam: I don’t know the guy, I’m just going on what Freddie has said ‎[9/10/23, 11:19:19 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:19:29 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:19:44 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:20:24 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:20:34 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:20:34 pm] Sam: That’s Anthony Powell, not Enoch Powell, whom I respect [9/10/23, 11:20:46 pm] Sam: Either Powell himself or his characters, whichever you like [9/10/23, 11:20:56 pm] Sam: Widmerpool comes particularly to mind ‎[9/10/23, 11:21:07 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:21:15 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:21:25 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:21:39 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:22:28 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:22:51 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:25:12 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [9/10/23, 11:26:24 pm] Oli: Looool [9/10/23, 11:31:38 pm] Sam: Where is this? Do they have food? I’m sure a litter will be … I don’t exactly remember but it’ll be more than four, unless that’s all there are left. Horrible. ‎[9/10/23, 11:35:00 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [9/10/23, 11:35:32 pm] Oli: Turkey [9/10/23, 11:35:41 pm] Oli: 🦃 [9/10/23, 11:36:02 pm] Sam: But where more precisely? Near your house? Residential area? Restaurant? Village? City? Warm? Cold? ‎[9/10/23, 11:36:06 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:36:25 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:36:36 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:36:50 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:37:14 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:37:25 pm] Oli: ‎Location: https://maps.google.com/?q=36.189945,29.862349 [9/10/23, 11:44:58 pm] Sam: From a glance at the map, that looks sorta ok! Small village by the sea with some restaurants? [9/10/23, 11:45:17 pm] Sam: Perhaps that’s why they looked relatively ok and healthy - I suppose they survived for thousands of years in such environments ‎[9/10/23, 11:45:22 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:45:29 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:45:44 pm] Sam: ‎video omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:45:47 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:46:03 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:46:08 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:46:27 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[9/10/23, 11:47:04 pm] Oli: ‎audio omitted [9/10/23, 11:47:15 pm] Oli: Does this work for my VM [9/10/23, 11:47:20 pm] Oli: Or just enables your dictation [9/10/23, 11:52:33 pm] Sam: This enables your dictation! [10/10/23, 12:06:08 am] Sam: I have deigned to listen to this one solitary answerphone message, and yes, I agree [10/10/23, 12:06:14 am] Sam: With the half that I can understand [10/10/23, 12:07:07 am] Sam: I again heartily recommend the written alphabet, invented about a half dozen thousand years ago to indite Sumerian debts ‎[10/10/23, 12:23:23 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [10/10/23, 12:23:45 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. ‎[10/10/23, 12:24:12 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[10/10/23, 12:24:19 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[10/10/23, 12:24:29 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[10/10/23, 12:24:44 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [10/10/23, 12:25:18 am] Oli: Wow! [10/10/23, 12:47:52 am] Sam: Let me know if you manage to get it working! [10/10/23, 12:48:12 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [10/10/23, 12:48:17 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [10/10/23, 12:48:45 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [10/10/23, 12:48:50 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [10/10/23, 12:48:57 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [10/10/23, 12:49:07 am] Oli: I should try [10/10/23, 12:49:12 am] Oli: How do o do it [10/10/23, 12:49:18 am] Oli: I have dictation for myself already [10/10/23, 12:49:23 am] Oli: But others not sure ‎[10/10/23, 12:49:55 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[10/10/23, 12:50:07 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[10/10/23, 12:50:20 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [10/10/23, 12:50:25 am] Oli: Testing ‎[10/10/23, 12:50:32 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [10/10/23, 1:13:42 am] Oli: Am screaming with laughter [10/10/23, 1:13:48 am] Oli: Kingsley is replying very politely [10/10/23, 1:13:53 am] Oli: And laughing about his shiny pate [10/10/23, 1:13:55 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 [10/10/23, 1:14:07 am] Oli: Method [10/10/23, 1:14:10 am] Oli: My god* [10/10/23, 1:14:17 am] Oli: Good ide [10/10/23, 1:14:18 am] Oli: Raaaight [10/10/23, 1:14:26 am] Oli: He says he met Timmy once when he was shooting [10/10/23, 1:14:35 am] Oli: But he didn’t! He met Timmy’s elder rotund father [10/10/23, 1:14:37 am] Oli: Second beer [10/10/23, 1:14:39 am] Oli: Best [10/10/23, 1:16:29 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [10/10/23, 1:16:32 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [10/10/23, 1:17:41 am] Oli: Well not that elderly and rotund but moreso compared t sprog ‎[10/10/23, 1:18:50 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [10/10/23, 1:19:32 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [10/10/23, 1:19:37 am] Oli: Hiding the pate [10/10/23, 1:19:47 am] Sam: This is why he replies politely [10/10/23, 1:20:32 am] Oli: Interesting theory [10/10/23, 1:20:37 am] Oli: I must think more on this [10/10/23, 1:20:41 am] Oli: I wonder [10/10/23, 1:20:45 am] Oli: He is quite clever secretly [10/10/23, 1:20:46 am] Oli: So maybe [10/10/23, 1:21:05 am] Oli: But he himself is known to laugh like a child when confronted with it [10/10/23, 1:21:06 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [10/10/23, 1:21:32 am] Sam: I don’t mean _literally_ - if any of these people are quite clever then it’s very secret [10/10/23, 1:21:37 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [10/10/23, 1:21:44 am] Sam: But that he’s laughing because it’s an utterly unthreatening non-fault [10/10/23, 1:21:55 am] Oli: 👴🏻 [10/10/23, 1:22:00 am] Oli: He has his own emoji ‎[10/10/23, 1:22:52 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [10/10/23, 1:23:33 am] Sam: I think the term among the blacks is ‘house nigger’ [10/10/23, 1:23:41 am] Oli: Funny as others made the same point about him [10/10/23, 1:23:42 am] Oli: LOL ‎[10/10/23, 1:25:35 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [10/10/23, 1:25:40 am] Oli: 👴🏻 [10/10/23, 1:26:17 am] Oli: Well what normalcy [10/10/23, 1:26:21 am] Oli: 03:26 here [10/10/23, 1:26:22 am] Oli: Bloody ell [10/10/23, 1:26:24 am] Oli: Funny ‎[10/10/23, 1:32:17 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[10/10/23, 1:32:35 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted ‎[10/10/23, 1:32:51 am] Oli: ‎audio omitted [10/10/23, 1:48:33 am] Oli: Goodness. I speak too quickly in these. Maybe it will Himmler the dictation [10/10/23, 1:48:38 am] Oli: I am interested in this now ‎[10/10/23, 1:52:26 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [10/10/23, 2:20:08 am] Sam: What same point? [10/10/23, 2:20:26 am] Sam: Dictation working well then! [10/10/23, 2:21:54 am] Sam: I’ll be interested to see what you have to say! [10/10/23, 2:22:12 am] Oli: Can’t even get bedtime right [10/10/23, 2:22:18 am] Oli: Fockin’ 04:22 [10/10/23, 2:22:21 am] Oli: What’s wrong with me [10/10/23, 2:22:22 am] Oli: Hilarious [10/10/23, 2:22:38 am] Oli: Kingsley’s gimlirb [10/10/23, 2:22:40 am] Oli: Humour [10/10/23, 2:22:44 am] Oli: Or how he takes it rather [10/10/23, 2:22:52 am] Oli: Raaight [10/10/23, 2:22:55 am] Oli: Good idea 🤣 [10/10/23, 2:23:06 am] Sam: I think the point is more about what you give [10/10/23, 2:23:31 am] Oli: Oh hmm [10/10/23, 2:23:35 am] Sam: I’m not the least bit surprised that he takes a load of rubbish about being bald in good part ! [10/10/23, 2:23:36 am] Oli: Yes I see how it’s phrased [10/10/23, 2:23:46 am] Oli: 👴🏻 [10/10/23, 2:23:56 am] Oli: Postrizhennyy [10/10/23, 2:24:22 am] Sam: Of course, the goal is not necessarily to spend one’s whole life being brutal to people [10/10/23, 2:24:43 am] Sam: And ideally one wouldn’t be friends with people who merit brutality ‎[10/10/23, 2:25:10 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[10/10/23, 2:25:16 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[10/10/23, 2:25:31 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [10/10/23, 2:25:44 am] Sam: But certainly one would do better not to kid oneself that one is being a lion of moral clarity when one is really being a chihuahua of complaisant raillery [10/10/23, 2:26:02 am] Sam: Well timed sticker! [10/10/23, 2:26:17 am] Oli: 🐕 [10/10/23, 2:26:27 am] Oli: 🐈‍⬛ [10/10/23, 2:26:38 am] Oli: Raaight [10/10/23, 2:26:42 am] Oli: #Himmlered [10/10/23, 2:26:44 am] Oli: Good idea [10/10/23, 2:26:46 am] Oli: MOOITE [10/10/23, 2:26:49 am] Oli: Haha ‎[10/10/23, 2:27:05 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [10/10/23, 2:27:23 am] Oli: Karl Kraus might as well be called Karl Kraut [10/10/23, 2:27:26 am] Oli: Sounds it [10/10/23, 2:27:42 am] Oli: Alfred Kerr [10/10/23, 2:27:45 am] Oli: Interesting [10/10/23, 2:27:48 am] Oli: 🚗 [10/10/23, 2:27:50 am] Oli: Raaigjt [10/10/23, 2:27:52 am] Sam: There is a _juste moyen_ [10/10/23, 2:28:03 am] Sam: But I’d sooner be safely this side of it [10/10/23, 2:28:11 am] Oli: Saw picture of him somewhere recently [10/10/23, 2:28:26 am] Oli: Gallows humour [10/10/23, 2:28:29 am] Oli: Yes good idea [10/10/23, 2:30:04 am] Sam: I think [10/10/23, 2:31:05 am] Sam: I mean, there are many things to laugh about in these absurd people, but I can’t exactly imagine Waugh writing a book about the baldness of their heads [10/10/23, 2:31:44 am] Sam: Mockery about as sharp and as dull as his head [10/10/23, 2:32:48 am] Sam: I think in Russia it’s called the system opposition [10/10/23, 2:37:07 am] Sam: Generally those people are extremely tolerant of that sort of mockery, because they know it’s utterly toothless and insincere, as you can see — with almost no exceptions — from their reactions to genuine opprobrium and dislike and judgement [10/10/23, 2:41:57 am] Sam: That was the answer to this question, incidentally: that you haven’t been representing yourself as a « two-dimensional wreck », that it’s always been quite obviously telegraphed that “oh I’m actually a clever and moral person masquerading as an idiot, like Prince Myshkin or something” (except you’ve never been prepared to stick to the supposed masquerade long enough for me to believe that you really want to come across that way, as opposed to wanting to come across as wanting to come across that way — and it’s the supposed personality underneath the masquerade whose reality I question). [10/10/23, 2:43:07 am] Sam: I’m not trying to be aggressive, but I would sooner cut right to the point than spend ages talking about rubbish [10/10/23, 3:58:48 am] Sam: I think the challenge is that I still more or less think what I said to Damien was correct. You can quibble about the exact relatedness of the cousins, or precise amounts of aval subventions, but the facts are that: - Your friends are very obviously chosen for their social status. - Your role is as a court jester saying dross about baldness. - You know it. - You know they know it. - You know I know it. - You don’t like that I know it – but only inasmuch as it’s déclassé to _actually care_ about class, so, although you plainly care a great deal, we have to do this silly dance about how the composition of your friends is a funny coincidence or naturally to be expected. - I suspect you have real worries (I begin to suspect, given what you involunteered in re Nicholas, that your use of your grandfather’s card is to some degree ‘ultra vires’) but you can’t bear to let that last redoubt of self-regard be demolished. - ‘Sublimated rage at imposture’ - I won’t belabour that point. I have never seen quite so much swivel-eyed rage as in this conversation. - The tonsure rubbish does double duty as a means of infantile regression, another escape hatch from reality to be called on at need. Same for the other thought-terminating babble about ‘good idea’, ‘right’, etc. - You seem to have built up a dynamic where you have an ‘outer circle’ of friends to impress, and an ‘inner circle’ of friends who have basically no social standing, are cravenly worshipful of you, and appear to serve as a source of narcissistic supply. (Narcissism in the Freudian sense is not necessarily pathological. But this dynamic is.) I don’t think this is making you happy, self-evidently and by your own admission. All I can do is again invite you to consider why you insist on continuing with it. ‎ ‎[10/10/23, 5:49:35 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [10/10/23, 6:09:31 am] Oli: Good morning!! [10/10/23, 6:10:04 am] Sam: Guten Morgen! [10/10/23, 6:10:19 am] Oli: 👴🏻 [10/10/23, 6:10:25 am] Sam: I have again got stuck reading through some random part of the last month of this thread ‎[10/10/23, 6:11:17 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [10/10/23, 6:11:27 am] Oli: It is a roundabout [10/10/23, 6:14:52 am] Sam: Most drivers do at most one revolution of a roundabout! [10/10/23, 6:22:29 am] Sam: But yes, it’s a roundabout because this is true, and we’re in a bit of a _situation fausse_, and I keep saying it and you keep insisting it’s not the case and then going back to talking stupid gibberish that drains my will to live. I just don’t know where you want or expect or hope this to end up. If I lived a thousand years I wouldn’t have enough time to talk about some of the complete nonsense that has pervaded this thread. I think you know it but you clearly intend to follow a different direction with your life, and that’s fine and there’s nothing I can really do about it if that’s your wish. [10/10/23, 6:24:02 am] Sam: If you want to have a real conversation, I’m here. Right now you don’t seem to want that. Honestly lots of this stuff I find pretty much insulting in its pointlessness and contempt for my time. [10/10/23, 6:26:28 am] Oli: ⭕️ [10/10/23, 6:26:32 am] Oli: Circle! [10/10/23, 6:26:46 am] Oli: Trying t’ find roundabout emoji! 🤣 [10/10/23, 6:27:03 am] Oli: Most many more! [10/10/23, 6:31:27 am] Sam: Do they?? That sounds like a very uncertain driver to me! [10/10/23, 6:31:54 am] Oli: British roads [10/10/23, 6:32:04 am] Oli: HH for them [10/10/23, 6:32:14 am] Oli: 🚗 ‎[10/10/23, 6:34:58 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [10/10/23, 6:36:06 am] Oli: How are you so energetic?! This am? Not much sleep for yowwwww! [10/10/23, 6:36:19 am] Sam: Feel like I’m stuck alternating between tactical aphasia and directionless anger in this thread ‎[10/10/23, 6:36:37 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [10/10/23, 6:37:30 am] Sam: And I don’t really have the time right now, so I think I’m going to temporarily mute or archive or block or whatever the various options are, if it’s just going to carry on like this ‎[10/10/23, 6:38:02 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [10/10/23, 6:38:30 am] Oli: Hope goes well! Am just alf asleep! Not sure many have the time at 06:38! [10/10/23, 6:38:56 am] Oli: You are up early! [10/10/23, 6:39:12 am] Oli: It is 08:38 here… still horribly early! [10/10/23, 6:39:26 am] Sam: I don’t mean literally this minute, but in this phase of my life (or really most phases in my life) [10/10/23, 6:40:07 am] Sam: Silence not a problem, that doesn’t take any of my time - problem is constant stream of messages that I barely even lack the brain cells to respond to ‎[10/10/23, 6:54:11 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [10/10/23, 6:54:40 am] Oli: Orange not yellow: but they say ‘yellow’ in Northern Ireland funnily [10/10/23, 6:54:41 am] Oli: 🤣 [10/10/23, 7:10:22 am] Sam: I get the sense, as with the voice messages, that you’re just being inane to make a show of not having to listen to me. Which is your right, but I don’t have to listen to you either, and I am near the point of stopping listening to this torrent of dross, so if there’s any real conversation you want to have then I’d be very glad if we could have it! ‎[10/10/23, 7:12:37 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[10/10/23, 7:12:42 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [10/10/23, 7:12:43 am] Oli: Tis lovely here! [10/10/23, 7:13:01 am] Oli: You’re probably raaaight [10/10/23, 7:13:44 am] Oli: Good idea [10/10/23, 7:13:44 am] Oli: I shall have to rely on an army of minions of low social status to bolster my narcissism! ‎[10/10/23, 7:13:53 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [10/10/23, 7:14:09 am] Oli: Was pointing out something related t’ yesterday’s points! [10/10/23, 7:14:26 am] Oli: British passport stitching different thread [10/10/23, 7:14:34 am] Oli: I oddly found this interesting! [10/10/23, 8:54:20 am] Sam: I don’t, I suppose that’s the crux of the matter. I don’t find any of this interesting. I don’t even find it interestingly wrong. I just find it increasingly rude to waste my time with this dross, and then to fob me off with repeated claims to be trying to recover from mental illness forgotten about 10 minutes later to resume going on about such and such relatives or friends who are Knights Templar or fuck knows what. [10/10/23, 9:45:51 pm] Oli: These are not the facts let alone facts, but don’t let me block a good narrative, which you obviously enjoy creating. Perhaps you need to create one. Your suspicions are incorrect and the psychological picture you build up is so distorted that I don’t think there’s anything I can do. Please do block me or use whatever method you need to stop contacting me. I think there will be many more people receptive to your twaddle (there are plenty receptive to mine). I did find it very entertaining and still do but all the best. [10/10/23, 10:06:22 pm] Sam: I’m quite satisfied those are the facts. In case this is what you’re worried about, I haven’t shared any of this conversation with anyone except those few very limited screenshots, nor mean I to (though please do delete any especially sensitive messages just in case). Frankly this has gone exactly as I suspected and warned several times that it would, and I wish you’d had the good manners to listen to those warnings and not waste my time. [10/10/23, 10:11:04 pm] Oli: Not worried at all. [10/10/23, 10:11:09 pm] Oli: Share what you want [10/10/23, 10:11:18 pm] Oli: And I’m glad you’re satisfied. [10/10/23, 10:11:22 pm] Oli: Have a good time of it! [10/10/23, 10:11:59 pm] Oli: You’re being a jumped up ass. You’ve wasted more than enough of my time too. [10/10/23, 10:12:06 pm] Oli: Please be a good boy and piss off. [10/10/23, 10:12:14 pm] Oli: Into the sunset with your nice picture of me. [10/10/23, 10:12:56 pm] Oli: It is a shame you think I care what you think (particularly if that’s what you come out with: you could do better). I actually enjoyed having a trivial chat here and there. But it’s genuinely no loss to me. [10/10/23, 10:13:02 pm] Oli: Actually a gain if that’s what you think of me [10/10/23, 10:13:05 pm] Oli: Have a nice life etc. [10/10/23, 10:13:14 pm] Oli: 👍 [10/10/23, 10:18:27 pm] Sam: Sorry, one sec, just having a bite to eat [10/10/23, 10:19:46 pm] Oli: I don’t intend to continue and hope you don’t either. Your psychological image of me is enough to cement that. Please take yourself out of my life. [10/10/23, 10:19:55 pm] Oli: Eat to your heart’s content! [10/10/23, 11:49:22 pm] Sam: Sorry, kept getting waylaid. To be clear, I have no interest in embarrassing you, or ‘destroying’ you in some silly teenage way. Still I’d delete those messages about child abuse if I were you, just out of an abundance of caution. Also, I realise what I said is a lot to expect anyone to digest. A lot of truth, to be exact. If I were you I’d ask yourself what alternative explanations you believe - because I don’t think any exist that aren’t obvious nonsense - and also how much of your life you want to waste in this way. I’m annoyed that you’ve wasted so much of my time in the exact way I warned you about on quite a few occasions in the past fortnight, and I despair for your sake at what seems to me a complete waste of a life, but ultimately that’s up to you. [11/10/23, 12:18:32 am] Sam: Also, I know my opinion means something to you, and I want you to know that I think you have potential. I hope I’m wrong. It saddens and offends me to see you waste your life making a fool of yourself to impress some imbeciles because they went to Eton. (I don’t include Xander in that description. You lucked out with that one. Be good to him.) I care about you and I hope you’re both happy. [11/10/23, 12:44:47 pm] Sam: Sorry, those few very limited screenshots _to Ryan_ is what I meant to say here. May send further corrigenda! [15/10/23, 5:00:37 pm] Sam: Just wound up in a rabbit hole looking up old Rupert, and found this tweet from his mother: https://x.com/leandadelisle/status/1710200128487801042 Well, quite, Leanne, quite! Preach what you practise! ‎[17/10/23, 2:41:55 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [17/10/23, 2:42:23 pm] Sam: 🙏🏻 [17/10/23, 2:42:30 pm] Sam: 💯 [17/10/23, 2:50:23 pm] Sam: Leroy, as you probably know him [17/10/23, 11:13:11 pm] Oli: Leroy and I jammed [19/10/23, 12:32:52 am] Sam: You jammed with Martin Luther King? [19/10/23, 12:33:32 am] Sam: Funnily enough Kieran’s grandparents actually did jam with Martin Luther King, not that you’d have expected that from him - they were friends of his [19/10/23, 12:35:40 am] Sam: (Also my own grandpa was friends with Malcolm X, after interviewing him while at the BBC - friends or at least friendly, to the best of my recall of what my grandma told me) [19/10/23, 12:36:59 am] Sam: Howard Johnson I think was the name - he was the supposed inspo behind Kieran’s brief name change, though really I think it had more to do with his liking the name [19/10/23, 12:38:03 am] Sam: (This is not a rapprochement, I’m just vaguely considering that it might be possible to send you random dross in such a way that it might draw you sanityward) ‎[21/10/23, 5:39:03 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [21/10/23, 7:00:50 pm] Oli: Not met any ghosts in Turkey! [21/10/23, 7:01:32 pm] Oli: Though some of the elder ladies looked like ghosts at times 🤣 [21/10/23, 7:01:47 pm] Oli: I must have a holiday after that holiday. At airport now ‎[21/10/23, 7:04:22 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [21/10/23, 7:08:15 pm] Oli: 3 ghosts will hopefully soon visit! Casper the unfriendly ghost knowing the ghosts you would send! But hopefully some friendly ones! Can have tea with them! ‎[21/10/23, 7:08:21 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[21/10/23, 7:09:18 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[21/10/23, 7:18:01 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [21/10/23, 7:18:57 pm] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [21/10/23, 7:18:59 pm] Sam: cf ‘praise…others’ [21/10/23, 7:19:08 pm] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [21/10/23, 7:20:11 pm] Oli: ‘ello aristotle ‎[21/10/23, 7:25:17 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [22/10/23, 7:57:59 pm] Sam: Fwiw I went to see Damien last night (ok, I went to get meth, but I went to Damien’s because it’s an established entrepôt) and I did relate some of our conversation. Mostly my thoughts. Yours when incidentally between my messages. The only even halfway private thing was the saga of Nicholas’s card, and then only because I was pretty certain he’d know (as indeed he did; presumably you know he did) and it was necessary to articulate my point. I assume there’s a good chance he knows everything I know and possibly more (I did tell him not to tell me anything private, that I didn’t want to suborn sharing of secrets). I have no interest in spoiling your friendship (which I anyway suspect is not the most prized of your friendships) though I think it’s quite probable that he had more doubt afterwards than to begin with. But I’ve spent a long time talking to you, I don’t think I’ve been told the truth, that’s a disorienting feeling, and I’m also human and therefore can’t be expected not to speak to my friends about my feelings. I find it all very bewildering. My thoughts aren’t much changed. I think _something_ is odd about the Xander thing. (Less so Freddie, perhaps.) I find it very odd that you should go out with someone for several years without ever once bringing them to a party or to Henley or any other event. And even in the more subtle ways: I’ve never seen a photo of you both (nor had Damien but perhaps we’re both unobservant!), he doesn’t really seem to have much of a life in any of your stories, it’s unclear what you like about him, and the way we’ve spoken about your crushes on me and Timmy makes perfect sense as regards me and Timmy and you but is almost as if Xander doesn’t exist, and it makes much more sense on the assumption he doesn’t. On the other hand I still don’t think you wrote those messages from him to you. For some reason that doesn’t feel possible. More generally I still am quite certain that you glommed on purpose, that it hasn’t been satisfying to you, that you’re not entirely permitted to spend what you’ve spent of your grandfather’s money, and that the nature of your stress has something large to do with the pointlessness of your life spent fanatically striving within a system of values inherited from your mother and your grandfather and which you don’t want to accept hasn’t brought you happiness. But I dunno. I’m very low on meth! [22/10/23, 7:58:18 pm] Sam: That turned into a rather longer message than I meant to write ‎[22/10/23, 10:06:48 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:32 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:32 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:32 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:32 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:32 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:32 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:32 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:32 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:32 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:32 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:32 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:32 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:33 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:33 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:33 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 10:07:33 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [22/10/23, 10:07:51 pm] Oli: I have at least 20 photo albums. My cousins gave me this one last year. All good fun. [22/10/23, 10:08:26 pm] Sam: I’m not sure what this is meant to relate to, though? [22/10/23, 10:08:43 pm] Oli: Makes a change from bourgeois non-entities spouting claptrap which they seem to believe ‎[22/10/23, 10:09:11 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [22/10/23, 10:09:19 pm] Oli: What I really took umbrage to was your assertion that I was deceiving my grandpa, whom I have essentially looked after for a long time now. Quite the opposite [22/10/23, 10:09:23 pm] Oli: The rest is all collateral [22/10/23, 10:09:41 pm] Oli: And I’ve given you multiple get outs from this chat yet you continue [22/10/23, 10:11:12 pm] Oli: You don’t seem to get it [22/10/23, 10:12:05 pm] Oli: And if Damien has doubts then he’s the last person to have doubts. A boy from Belfast who has just about made well. [22/10/23, 10:12:12 pm] Sam: I don’t think that was an ‘assertion’. All I have in this conversation are suspicions. But yes, that’s probably my best explanation of that particular point. (I mean, come on. Your grandfather considers it profligate for you to rent somewhere to live, but is fine with your spending your money on coke and booze?) [22/10/23, 10:12:30 pm] Oli: I like him but annoyingly he never quite became my friend because he lives his life like that. He doesn’t know how to keep in touch with people properly it’s sad [22/10/23, 10:12:57 pm] Sam: It’s implausible whether he’s Gavroche or Julius Caesar himself. [22/10/23, 10:14:43 pm] Oli: He does not know I am spending it on that but has the best faith that I’m spending properly. He allows me to spend the money I do. I also have my own bank account with investments which I seem to have shown you too many times [22/10/23, 10:14:56 pm] Oli: But yes my money comes from him either directly or passively [22/10/23, 10:14:59 pm] Sam: And, in the much-battered interest of honesty, Damien didn’t have a worked-out theory that you were being dishonest. I more meant that he seemed receptive to my thoughts (granted he might’ve been humouring me) and that he had the same lacunae as I did (not having met Xander &c). [22/10/23, 10:15:25 pm] Sam: None of that contradicts what I said above [22/10/23, 10:15:25 pm] Oli: Unlike Nicholas who gives boys his PIN number and tells them to spend what they want and then takes umbrage when they do [22/10/23, 10:15:33 pm] Oli: I regret that I didn’t spend more quite frankly [22/10/23, 10:15:35 pm] Oli: He is a cunt [22/10/23, 10:16:22 pm] Oli: And actually he was talking about me going to London when we were in Turkey [22/10/23, 10:16:27 pm] Oli: As wants me to start my life [22/10/23, 10:16:29 pm] Oli: Funny idea [22/10/23, 10:16:35 pm] Oli: So that’s good news for you isn’t it [22/10/23, 10:16:44 pm] Oli: 👍 [22/10/23, 10:16:56 pm] Sam: I share that wish [22/10/23, 10:17:02 pm] Oli: How fun [22/10/23, 10:17:26 pm] Sam: I mean, where on earth are you living? I can’t quite tell and it seems constantly to differ. [22/10/23, 10:17:42 pm] Oli: I am a peripatetic nomad quite fun [22/10/23, 10:17:50 pm] Oli: At the moment in the country in my council flat because I’m a nobody ‎[22/10/23, 10:18:03 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [22/10/23, 10:18:07 pm] Oli: I have two rooms here [22/10/23, 10:18:18 pm] Oli: Because I am a hoarder and can’t live in my room [22/10/23, 10:18:22 pm] Sam: Your grandfather’s? [22/10/23, 10:18:31 pm] Oli: Indeed [22/10/23, 10:18:34 pm] Oli: I’m in London tomorrow ‎[22/10/23, 10:18:55 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [22/10/23, 10:18:55 pm] Sam: Well, come round, I’m at my aunt’s [22/10/23, 10:19:00 pm] Sam: My aunt is at my parents’ [22/10/23, 10:19:00 pm] Oli: Nose not jose [22/10/23, 10:19:04 pm] Sam: My parents are in Portugal [22/10/23, 10:19:07 pm] Sam: Don’t even ask, lol [22/10/23, 10:19:09 pm] Oli: Please report me to the authorities [22/10/23, 10:19:12 pm] Oli: Good idea [22/10/23, 10:20:20 pm] Sam: If you don’t want to talk about yourself, you don’t have to. I’m easy. If you want to try to dissuade me by throwing tantrums, what do you expect to happen? That I believe you? That I carry on talking to you? Where do you expect it to end? What’s the point of even replying? [22/10/23, 10:21:37 pm] Oli: I did say above 🤣 [22/10/23, 10:21:48 pm] Sam: And how do you think Freddie would reply if I asked him? How do you think the late Queen would reply? How do you think old Lord Cadogan (god rest his soul) would reply? Do you see what I’m driving at? [22/10/23, 10:22:00 pm] Oli: After I was accused of taking advantage of an old man who has actually taken up too much of my time (which he’s now admitted) [22/10/23, 10:22:09 pm] Oli: But families have a strange bond which isn’t like normal people [22/10/23, 10:22:22 pm] Sam: Go ahead, accuse me of doing that! Let’s do an experiment! [22/10/23, 10:22:50 pm] Oli: And we are prone to mixed feelings and contradictions [22/10/23, 10:22:57 pm] Oli: Sad emotions really [22/10/23, 10:23:13 pm] Oli: Haha [22/10/23, 10:25:52 pm] Sam: I am just asking you to tell me the truth about the very basic facts of your life. What you have told me does not hang together. Blind Freddie can see that. [22/10/23, 10:26:10 pm] Oli: You’ve got this odd idea that it doesn’t hang together [22/10/23, 10:26:15 pm] Oli: I don’t quite understand what you mean [22/10/23, 10:26:31 pm] Sam: I’ve written you a fucking monograph on what it means! This very evening! [22/10/23, 10:26:42 pm] Oli: That’s a load of rot my dear man [22/10/23, 10:26:49 pm] Oli: It’s the same autistic drivel [22/10/23, 10:26:58 pm] Sam: Well, let’s condense it then! [22/10/23, 10:27:04 pm] Oli: People who don’t exist is wonderful [22/10/23, 10:27:25 pm] Oli: 🥸 [22/10/23, 10:28:18 pm] Sam: For one, why can’t you rent a flat in London? A room in London? You very clearly want to and it very clearly would be an aid to your goals in life, such as they are. What is going on with your finances? [22/10/23, 10:28:34 pm] Oli: Hello mr autisti [22/10/23, 10:28:36 pm] Oli: Autist [22/10/23, 10:28:40 pm] Sam: And please don’t give me the same bollocks again. You don’t have to reply, but I have the ordinary expectation of honesty if you do. [22/10/23, 10:28:40 pm] Oli: I know you’re not a good listener [22/10/23, 10:29:13 pm] Oli: But haha [22/10/23, 10:29:16 pm] Sam: What’s a cheap room in London? £1000? If your grandfather truly allows you to spend several thousand pounds a month on his card, why not rent a flat? [22/10/23, 10:29:31 pm] Oli: Hello Mr Autist [22/10/23, 10:29:36 pm] Oli: Some people skills would be good [22/10/23, 10:29:39 pm] Oli: Hope you can learn them [22/10/23, 10:30:01 pm] Sam: I’ll put my cards clearly on the table here: I think the reason you won’t do that is that it’s a regular expense that you’re not willing to commit to with your grandfather’s pilfered money. (Also potentially you might need a guarantor etc who would not be forthcoming.) [22/10/23, 10:30:05 pm] Oli: We had spoken about that over the last two weeks [22/10/23, 10:30:19 pm] Oli: I’ve had many guarantors [22/10/23, 10:30:31 pm] Oli: Thanks [22/10/23, 10:31:00 pm] Sam: Well, what’s the answer? I’ve heard many answers, of course, but I haven’t heard any that have actually made sense. [22/10/23, 10:31:17 pm] Oli: That he is planning to [22/10/23, 10:31:28 pm] Oli: Mr autist [22/10/23, 10:31:33 pm] Oli: A breakthrough isn’t it [22/10/23, 10:31:44 pm] Oli: How fun [22/10/23, 10:32:12 pm] Oli: I shall come up with some good way of convincing him that I am normal and he will allow it as I had a go at him for making himself dependent on me [22/10/23, 10:32:25 pm] Oli: He is too hubristic to get a proper carer so has some local woman he pompously calls a ‘housekeeper’ [22/10/23, 10:33:01 pm] Oli: But my feelings as they are now are the result of two weeks of lunacy with his friends in Turkey [22/10/23, 10:33:07 pm] Oli: Though I feel better after it [22/10/23, 10:33:15 pm] Oli: And I will of course go back to liking him as always [22/10/23, 10:33:17 pm] Oli: That’s families for you [22/10/23, 10:34:17 pm] Sam: What do you mean, convincing him? Are you or are you not allowed to spend this money? Because it really sounds to me like you have his card and don’t feel comfortable spending money on it. Which sounds like … having physical possession of someone else’s debit card, which is not exactly what you made it out to be. [22/10/23, 10:34:47 pm] Oli: I have legal power of attorney also. I know he’s not yet demented but I am not stealing his card [22/10/23, 10:35:02 pm] Oli: He allows me to spend it but as I said (listen Mr Autist) he assumes my spending is all proper [22/10/23, 10:35:04 pm] Oli: And of course it’s not [22/10/23, 10:35:18 pm] Oli: I am the executor of the man’s will [22/10/23, 10:35:24 pm] Oli: You are quite naive [22/10/23, 10:35:41 pm] Sam: What on earth does that mean? Assumes, or requires? In other words you are allowed to spend what he allows you to spend money on? [22/10/23, 10:35:51 pm] Sam: This again sounds pretty much like holding someone else’s card [22/10/23, 10:35:57 pm] Sam: Rather than having an allowance [22/10/23, 10:36:12 pm] Oli: He will allow me to explicitly spend on a place (without me needing to dress it up) if he assumes it’s for a proper cause. I.e. for me to live somewhere whilst doing something proper with my life [22/10/23, 10:36:29 pm] Oli: But obviously one can dress things up to create the illusion of proper [22/10/23, 10:36:36 pm] Oli: I do hold his card [22/10/23, 10:36:37 pm] Sam: If he assumes? You mean if _it is_? [22/10/23, 10:36:38 pm] Oli: He has given it to me [22/10/23, 10:36:43 pm] Oli: The man is a vegetable at times [22/10/23, 10:36:48 pm] Oli: He has only just got out of the house again [22/10/23, 10:36:53 pm] Sam: And what exactly is improper about the human need for shelter? [22/10/23, 10:37:03 pm] Oli: He does not spend his money so I spend it on his behalf [22/10/23, 10:37:21 pm] Oli: I am not going to tell you the whole thing because the man deserves some dignity in his final years [22/10/23, 10:37:30 pm] Oli: Though he has made some very good improvements and I Am happy [22/10/23, 10:37:39 pm] Oli: Hence why he is now not wanting to be totally dependent on me as a carer [22/10/23, 10:37:53 pm] Oli: This is none of your business [22/10/23, 10:38:05 pm] Sam: Is that your final answer? [22/10/23, 10:38:12 pm] Oli: You can’t get that into your head [22/10/23, 10:38:30 pm] Oli: So stop trying to dress it up as something else and fuck off [22/10/23, 10:38:33 pm] Oli: As I’ve said multiple times [22/10/23, 10:38:57 pm] Oli: I have shelter here and elsewhere due to the beneficence of friends etc [22/10/23, 10:39:01 pm] Oli: So he would need convincing [22/10/23, 10:39:06 pm] Sam: Ok, I have my answer I think [22/10/23, 10:39:08 pm] Oli: And I am at a stage where I can now do that [22/10/23, 10:39:10 pm] Oli: Good for you [22/10/23, 10:39:17 pm] Sam: And Xander [22/10/23, 10:39:28 pm] Sam: Is it not slightly odd that no one has ever met the guy? [22/10/23, 10:39:30 pm] Oli: I am not going to elaborate fully on my situation with grandpa etc because it is none of your business [22/10/23, 10:39:38 pm] Oli: No because ‘no one’ aren’t my friends [22/10/23, 10:39:40 pm] Oli: Damien and you [22/10/23, 10:39:46 pm] Oli: You don’t even make conscious efforts to see me [22/10/23, 10:39:54 pm] Oli: I took him to Henley on the Sunday [22/10/23, 10:40:00 pm] Oli: To which he was several hours late [22/10/23, 10:40:06 pm] Oli: And at which he treated me with contempt [22/10/23, 10:40:14 pm] Sam: I can’t remember a single time in all the photos and videos you’ve sent, all the anecdotes you told, all the parties I’ve attended [22/10/23, 10:40:19 pm] Oli: I’d like to think that he’s met several [22/10/23, 10:40:25 pm] Oli: Yes he refuses to go to many of my things [22/10/23, 10:40:29 pm] Sam: I mean, most people do bring their partners at least occasionally to things [22/10/23, 10:40:36 pm] Sam: What, photos as well?! [22/10/23, 10:40:36 pm] Oli: One of many reasons why I am not really happy with the man [22/10/23, 10:40:40 pm] Oli: In spite of my attempt [22/10/23, 10:40:49 pm] Sam: Come on [22/10/23, 10:40:50 pm] Oli: I don’t think there are photos of you and I even [22/10/23, 10:40:56 pm] Sam: There are [22/10/23, 10:41:00 pm] Sam: And you and Damien and you and Kieran [22/10/23, 10:41:00 pm] Oli: There are very few photos of me with other people come to think of it [22/10/23, 10:41:02 pm] Sam: Hold on [22/10/23, 10:41:03 pm] Oli: Show me [22/10/23, 10:41:08 pm] Oli: I’ve never seen [22/10/23, 10:41:39 pm] Oli: Anyway, it seems you have your answers. I am not prepared to deal with your accusatory tone. I’m reading a book and going through photo albums. Of people long dead. [22/10/23, 10:42:11 pm] Oli: A lot of my life is none of your business [22/10/23, 10:42:58 pm] Oli: You aren’t really a friend. Nor is Damien. You are people I enjoy seeing but ‘friend’? It’s not that I don’t want to be it’s that there’s no effort and proper association of the sort which is friendship [22/10/23, 10:45:28 pm] Oli: Me and Damien yes! To be fair to him he has been nicer and more in the spirit of creating friendship. Sadly he just has bad ways of handling his time ‎[22/10/23, 10:46:51 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [22/10/23, 10:52:45 pm] Sam: Hmm, maybe I don’t have one of you and Damien. I could have sworn I did, but I think it was just two next to each other in my camera roll ‎[22/10/23, 10:52:49 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [22/10/23, 10:53:06 pm] Sam: For Kieran I’ve had to draw on your Instagram: ‎[22/10/23, 10:53:10 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [22/10/23, 10:53:40 pm] Sam: My phone seems very bad at recognising your face. I didn’t have you saved, I’ve found some photos and saved you, but it’s not finding the others I know I have. Oh well! Will update you! [22/10/23, 10:54:56 pm] Sam: If you want to make friends with people who don’t see or don’t mention this stuff, feel free. There’s a guy called King Lear that you could maybe glom onto for some advice. [22/10/23, 10:55:16 pm] Oli: That’s not the case [22/10/23, 10:55:20 pm] Oli: Interesting [22/10/23, 10:55:23 pm] Oli: I remember this [22/10/23, 10:55:25 pm] Oli: That was fun [22/10/23, 10:55:34 pm] Oli: Thank you I’d forgotten these [22/10/23, 10:55:37 pm] Sam: If you want to tell me the truth, I’m here. I think you know that I know roughly what it is, and for certain that this isn’t it. [22/10/23, 10:55:38 pm] Oli: There must be one of us [22/10/23, 10:55:41 pm] Oli: Why isn’t there one of us [22/10/23, 10:56:01 pm] Oli: You seem to have this insane picture of me [22/10/23, 10:56:36 pm] Oli: But that is part of living in the world [22/10/23, 10:57:43 pm] Sam: Just stop now. Look, you can shout at me and drive me to stop being friends with you at all, or you can be straight with me. There’s no third way. [22/10/23, 10:58:17 pm] Oli: Haha you are naive enough to think I want to entertain some friendship with you after you’ve essentially accused me of taking advantage of my Grandfather [22/10/23, 10:58:24 pm] Oli: It’s the other way around mostly [22/10/23, 10:58:44 pm] Sam: It’s your choice. Take it. [22/10/23, 10:59:06 pm] Oli: Mr Autist fails to listen again [22/10/23, 10:59:12 pm] Oli: 👍 [22/10/23, 10:59:29 pm] Sam: Do you think I’m going to forget and stop mentioning this? [22/10/23, 10:59:43 pm] Oli: Haha not at all [22/10/23, 10:59:50 pm] Oli: Autists are the opposite [22/10/23, 11:00:10 pm] Sam: This one, at any rate, yes [22/10/23, 11:00:18 pm] Oli: Yeeeop [22/10/23, 11:00:46 pm] Sam: And spare me the pretend indignation. After Slape it’s not gonna fly. Just be honest or be quiet. [22/10/23, 11:00:54 pm] Oli: It’s not pretend [22/10/23, 11:01:00 pm] Oli: You should follow the latter [22/10/23, 11:01:03 pm] Oli: You are quite naive [22/10/23, 11:01:10 pm] Oli: You don’t call the shots here [22/10/23, 11:01:16 pm] Oli: I’m telling you to fuck off [22/10/23, 11:01:21 pm] Oli: And you’re not registering it [22/10/23, 11:01:24 pm] Oli: So that’s your loss [22/10/23, 11:01:42 pm] Oli: Sorry I forget I’m actually in a loony bin and mad etc etc [22/10/23, 11:01:50 pm] Oli: I feel much better and collected after my travel away [22/10/23, 11:02:38 pm] Oli: 👍👍👍 [22/10/23, 11:02:41 pm] Oli: 🥸🥸 ‎[22/10/23, 11:02:45 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:02:46 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:02:47 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:02:50 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:02:51 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:02:52 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:02:53 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:02:58 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:03:00 pm] Oli: Etc ‎[22/10/23, 11:03:04 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:03:11 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:03:15 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:05:59 pm] Sam: … ok, and all this stuff is still not true, so this doesn’t do much for me ‎[22/10/23, 11:06:17 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:07:10 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [22/10/23, 11:07:17 pm] Oli: Said Catholics should be taken to the bog and shot [22/10/23, 11:07:19 pm] Sam: I don’t like cutting people off, so you’re welcome to block me if you mean ‘fuck off’ sincerely, which you don’t, or else you’re welcome to tell the truth. ‎[22/10/23, 11:07:20 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:07:23 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:07:38 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:08:03 pm] Oli: I don’t block either but am amused I must confess by this merry go round but my serious be real position remains that [22/10/23, 11:08:12 pm] Sam: …signifying nothing [22/10/23, 11:08:20 pm] Oli: Though I’m always up for a laugh as you know. I seem to do it with people in the street even ‎[22/10/23, 11:08:25 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:08:30 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:12:04 pm] Sam: Look, I’m sorry, you’re not blathering and bullying your way out of this. It may work with your tadpole friends but it will not work with someone of nearly normal intelligence. Please drop the stupid histrionics and diversions and just tell me the truth or call it a day. ‎[22/10/23, 11:12:31 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [22/10/23, 11:12:36 pm] Oli: All proof of my lunacy ‎[22/10/23, 11:12:45 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:12:49 pm] Oli: Raaaight ‎[22/10/23, 11:13:06 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:13:11 pm] Sam: No, this is the end of the road, I’m afraid [22/10/23, 11:13:13 pm] Oli: That’s me told [22/10/23, 11:13:20 pm] Oli: Sorry about that constable [22/10/23, 11:13:26 pm] Oli: I’ll come quietly [22/10/23, 11:13:30 pm] Oli: How exciting [22/10/23, 11:13:39 pm] Sam: Etc [22/10/23, 11:13:50 pm] Sam: When you’re done, my reply will be the same ‎[22/10/23, 11:14:02 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:15:52 pm] Sam: As a side note, your reaction here (and previously) is one of the principal confirming facts in my mind [22/10/23, 11:16:02 pm] Oli: Good idea ‎[22/10/23, 11:16:06 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:16:09 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:16:30 pm] Oli: That I’m Himmlering my grandfather! Hilarious. Think anyone would be appalled if they’re told that when they have done so much [22/10/23, 11:16:33 pm] Sam: Have your Slape moment, cool down a bit, and then make that decision ‎[22/10/23, 11:16:47 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:16:52 pm] Oli: Slape moment haha [22/10/23, 11:17:08 pm] Oli: You should come up with better analogies but sadly you haven’t met many slightly wacko people [22/10/23, 11:17:14 pm] Oli: Slape is essentially a vegetable [22/10/23, 11:17:15 pm] Oli: Poor boy ‎[22/10/23, 11:17:57 pm] Sam: ‎GIF omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:18:05 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:18:12 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:24:07 pm] Sam: My offer stands [22/10/23, 11:24:21 pm] Oli: What was that? ‎[22/10/23, 11:24:27 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:24:31 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:24:36 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:24:57 pm] Sam: ^ [22/10/23, 11:25:08 pm] Sam: ^ [22/10/23, 11:25:22 pm] Sam: ^ [22/10/23, 11:25:29 pm] Sam: ^ [22/10/23, 11:25:48 pm] Sam: ^ ‎[22/10/23, 11:25:58 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [22/10/23, 11:26:21 pm] Sam: Offer stands ‎[22/10/23, 11:26:55 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:27:05 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [22/10/23, 11:27:47 pm] Oli: Am going through funny letters and photos [22/10/23, 11:27:49 pm] Oli: Quite interesting [22/10/23, 11:27:53 pm] Oli: Less trepanned than this chat [22/10/23, 11:28:09 pm] Oli: Robsinson-Adams is a pathetic little drug-addicted trepanned man, who lives satisfying the lusts of others in return for money. Picking on you makes him feel better about his own complete failure. [22/10/23, 11:28:09 pm] Oli: You're not going to make him see any sort of sense because his blood is just a cocktail of meth. [22/10/23, 11:28:10 pm] Oli: He's a self-righteous abuser of the vulnerable; passing off exploitation as care. He views poor people like collectible trophies, to display his virtue and kind-heartedness. All the while, he gets them hooked on drugs or simply rapes them. [22/10/23, 11:28:10 pm] Oli: The man has made it his life's mission to prove that a human being can truly live like a pig. ‎[22/10/23, 11:28:13 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:28:55 pm] Oli: From an Harrovian albeit [22/10/23, 11:28:59 pm] Oli: But nonetheless amusing [22/10/23, 11:29:38 pm] Oli: Think the rape is wrong [22/10/23, 11:29:45 pm] Oli: This man is straight so just assumes all poufs to be rapists [22/10/23, 11:29:51 pm] Oli: A hangover from nastier times clearly [22/10/23, 11:30:10 pm] Sam: I’m not going to peach on you to Freddie and co, if that’s what you’re worried about. I think you have enough of a counterweight to trust me about that. If not, you’re free to choose the ‘part ways’ option, as you have been at every point. But, for the umpteenth time, I am not going to forget. [22/10/23, 11:30:38 pm] Sam: So, again [22/10/23, 11:30:40 pm] Sam: Offer stands ‎[22/10/23, 11:31:32 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:32:49 pm] Oli: Like Elton John? [22/10/23, 11:32:51 pm] Oli: Still standing! [22/10/23, 11:33:46 pm] Sam: Sorry, you’re out of road here [22/10/23, 11:33:55 pm] Sam: I’m not interested in this any more ‎[22/10/23, 11:33:57 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:34:07 pm] Sam: Answer or nothing [22/10/23, 11:36:55 pm] Oli: Sorry constable [22/10/23, 11:37:02 pm] Oli: Am I under caution?! ‎[22/10/23, 11:37:03 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:37:13 pm] Oli: I do rather enjoy this ‎[22/10/23, 11:37:17 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [22/10/23, 11:37:24 pm] Oli: ANSWER! SCHNELL! [22/10/23, 11:44:01 pm] Sam: What’s the point of this? I know you’re lying. I know approximately what the truth is. I now know that you’re basically a small child when confronted. Like … ok, if you want to. [22/10/23, 11:47:40 pm] Oli: Lying about Himmlering my grandfather? I think you’re actually insane [22/10/23, 11:49:44 pm] Sam: The sad thing is that I know you care what I think about you and are hurt by my saying this, and yet it seems, like Slape, you’d sooner die than confront the truth. It is not a possibility for you. I’m not gloating, this just strikes me as sad and pointless and a waste. But oh well. We’re at the end of the line. ‎ ‎[22/10/23, 11:53:22 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [22/10/23, 11:53:38 pm] Oli: The father, tonsured man here. Gerald Kildare, was a known spendthrift [22/10/23, 11:53:51 pm] Oli: My grandfather glommed onto him and he flew him in his plane to England [22/10/23, 11:53:53 pm] Oli: Normal for Ireland [22/10/23, 11:54:10 pm] Oli: I haven’t even started the line yet my dear!!!! [22/10/23, 11:54:12 pm] Oli: Good idea ‎[22/10/23, 11:54:13 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:54:14 pm] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[22/10/23, 11:56:17 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [23/10/23, 12:05:33 am] Sam: No, I’m sorry, this is not a tennis game. I am telling you what the situation is. If you keep wasting my time with this rubbish, I’m going to mute you for a while, and when I come back the situation will still be there. If you’re ready to act like an adult, I’m here. [23/10/23, 12:07:14 am] Sam: ‎You deleted this message. [23/10/23, 12:17:36 am] Sam: And not to twist the knife but god this is a depressing, bleak, impoverished view of human life. I suppose this is your view of Ryan too. And ultimately of course it’s the insecurity eating away at you, underneath it all, under all the elaborated defence mechanisms and pretences to scorn: that stubborn belief that these people are in some way better than you. ‎ [23/10/23, 12:19:30 am] Oli: Better than me? [23/10/23, 12:19:33 am] Sam: I have my differences with Damien, but they are based on the person he actually is and the choices he has actually made. Same for you. [23/10/23, 12:19:44 am] Oli: There are many I look up to but don’t think of Damien in that way. [23/10/23, 12:19:56 am] Oli: And it’s not my view of Ryan, who is far different to Damien [23/10/23, 12:19:58 am] Sam: No, I meant your aristocrat friends [23/10/23, 12:20:16 am] Sam: And (so you half-persuade yourself) you [23/10/23, 12:20:36 am] Oli: Rather good [23/10/23, 12:21:00 am] Sam: Sorry, you can’t persuade yourself that you’re better than yourself, of course. Poor wording. That you’re better than the majority, in that case. [23/10/23, 12:21:27 am] Oli: Very old fashioned view of people you have a bit too easy that one [23/10/23, 12:21:30 am] Oli: Too simple [23/10/23, 12:22:19 am] Sam: I think we’ve pretty much got to the mountaintop, haven’t we? [23/10/23, 12:22:39 am] Sam: The summation [23/10/23, 12:22:41 am] Oli: Summit [23/10/23, 12:22:48 am] Sam: Here we are [23/10/23, 12:22:56 am] Oli: Not my words [23/10/23, 12:22:59 am] Sam: All this conversation refined to a pencil point [23/10/23, 12:22:59 am] Oli: Funny business [23/10/23, 12:23:12 am] Oli: Can’t answer this [23/10/23, 12:23:19 am] Oli: Your view of the poor is quite odd like that [23/10/23, 12:23:21 am] Oli: Little projects [23/10/23, 12:23:47 am] Sam: My answer is: if it works for you, it works for you. I don’t really have any further thoughts. [23/10/23, 12:23:54 am] Sam: Sorry [23/10/23, 12:24:04 am] Sam: My offer stands, again [23/10/23, 12:24:04 am] Oli: Frankly it’s the same for you [23/10/23, 12:24:07 am] Oli: It’s all your truth etc [23/10/23, 12:24:51 am] Sam: No, sorry, what I’m saying is _the_ truth. You can retreat into this rubbish if you like. I’m not sure how that helps you, but you can. [23/10/23, 12:25:14 am] Oli: Haha you think you’re Plato or someone. Or God even [23/10/23, 12:25:20 am] Oli: Sadly it’s not actually THE truth [23/10/23, 12:25:23 am] Oli: It’s YOUR truth ‎[23/10/23, 12:25:27 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [23/10/23, 12:25:46 am] Sam: But if you want to be friends with me, which you do, then I’m sorry but it’s not on the basis of these fabrications [23/10/23, 12:26:00 am] Oli: Yes I’m desperate to be friends with you [23/10/23, 12:26:01 am] Sam: Up to you [23/10/23, 12:26:09 am] Oli: I hang on your every word [23/10/23, 12:26:14 am] Oli: Please please [23/10/23, 12:26:23 am] Oli: You really are quite naive it’s extraordinary [23/10/23, 12:27:04 am] Sam: Otherwise you’re free to stop replying or to block me. But, for the millionth time, this bluster is not going to work. [23/10/23, 12:27:23 am] Oli: I do enjoy bluster or random white noise [23/10/23, 12:27:27 am] Oli: It’s like a dart board [23/10/23, 12:27:30 am] Oli: Cathartic [23/10/23, 12:27:34 am] Oli: This is a good chat for it [23/10/23, 12:27:46 am] Oli: But it’s devoid of any personal aspect or nice human connection at this point [23/10/23, 12:27:51 am] Oli: Rather sad if one is being objective [23/10/23, 12:27:56 am] Oli: Otherwise I think it’s Himmler haus ‎[23/10/23, 12:27:59 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[23/10/23, 12:28:02 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[23/10/23, 12:28:06 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [23/10/23, 12:28:13 am] Sam: I have very little hope that you’re willing to admit this stuff about yourself, so as it stands I’ll probably reply a bit longer and then stop again for a while. And maybe I’ll come back out of boredom, who knows? But it’s going to be the same question each time, before long, because this is the reality. [23/10/23, 12:28:29 am] Oli: Which stuff exactly? That I am Himmlering my grandfather? You’re mad. [23/10/23, 12:28:34 am] Oli: You are utterly insane Sam [23/10/23, 12:28:38 am] Oli: It’s quite brilliant ‎[23/10/23, 12:28:47 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [23/10/23, 12:28:51 am] Sam: It strikes me as very sad, but ultimately it’s your call. ‎[23/10/23, 12:28:57 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [23/10/23, 12:34:00 am] Oli: Think you must be trepanned [23/10/23, 12:34:04 am] Oli: 👴🏻 ‎[23/10/23, 12:34:08 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [23/10/23, 12:43:59 am] Sam: For the time being, I’m going to adopt the same policy as with Slape, since this is now the same situation as with Slape. In short: you can keep telling lies, and I will be fairly blunt about what is the truth as far as I can see. As with Slape, I’ll get some things wrong, but this is where we are, I guess, that I have to deal with this. [23/10/23, 12:44:24 am] Oli: If you don’t prompt a reply I have no intention of contacting you [23/10/23, 12:44:33 am] Oli: I just enjoy the piss taking and Himmler and tonsuring [23/10/23, 12:44:34 am] Oli: Raaight [23/10/23, 12:44:51 am] Oli: This is side splittingly hilarious [23/10/23, 12:44:59 am] Oli: What am I lying about exactly? [23/10/23, 12:45:03 am] Oli: My grandfather’s card? [23/10/23, 12:45:17 am] Oli: I have express permission to use it and to HOLD it as you put it [23/10/23, 12:45:24 am] Oli: You are quite mad aren’t you ‎[23/10/23, 12:45:26 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [23/10/23, 12:50:40 am] Sam: My understanding is that your mother was obsessed with genealogy, by the sounds of it your grandfather too, though your grandfather has a reasonable claim to knowing some of those grand people in his generation. You’ve inherited his and your mother’s awe of it, but you aren’t from that world, except in that general upper middle class Home Counties (and apparently some of Ireland) way in which everyone has some distant connection to aristocracy, pretty much by virtue of the maths. And so you spend your time and your grandfather’s money buying champagne and attending events and playing the fool to make friends with ‘grand’ people, and, with all your income going to those superfices, you invent a grand home life and boyfriend and you paper over the cracks by never meeting people except at their flats or someone’s else’s parties or at public events. This works and it charms the very boring people you know, some of whom have wonderful surnames. Meanwhile you go home to your grandfather’s, or to Nicholas’s or somewhere else, and when it’s all over you have nothing that you want. [23/10/23, 12:51:29 am] Sam: 90% chance that 10% of that is wrong, but 10% chance that 90% of it is. [23/10/23, 12:51:31 am] Oli: Haha [23/10/23, 12:51:47 am] Sam: Yes, cue exaggerated mirth [23/10/23, 12:52:10 am] Oli: Invent a grand home life and boyfriend! I have a very basic home life and no grand partner [23/10/23, 12:52:47 am] Oli: Play the fool to make friends with grand people. Not really. Play t’ fool just t’ satisfy myself t’ talk t’ anyone unless they are brilliant at conversation [23/10/23, 12:53:08 am] Oli: Actually many people have ce to stay with me [23/10/23, 12:53:12 am] Oli: Come ‎[23/10/23, 12:53:25 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [23/10/23, 12:55:55 am] Oli: Apparently some of Ireland? You’re an idiot who allows his ignorance to rule his mind. [23/10/23, 12:55:59 am] Oli: Very naive ‎[23/10/23, 12:59:05 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [23/10/23, 12:59:20 am] Oli: They were just Home Counties people from England and apparently Ireland [23/10/23, 12:59:25 am] Oli: They were actually Hungarian [23/10/23, 12:59:42 am] Oli: You are ignorant and should follow your lover wittgeinstein’s maxim [23/10/23, 1:00:33 am] Oli: Home Counties isn’t Wiltshire btw ‎[23/10/23, 1:01:06 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [23/10/23, 1:01:21 am] Sam: And at the end of it all, you’re terrified at the hollowness of your life, and you train your rage at people like Slape, at Nicholas, at everyone else, and you tell yourself you’re a good person for looking down on them, and you tell yourself that you can make anything the case if you just repeat it enough, and you sink further into this insincerity that is eating up your life and will devour it entirely before you know it and poof, candle extinguished, game over, that was your turn, another empty character-obsessed neurotic tossed into the potter’s field, what a lovely character, how exquisite, in with the rest. [23/10/23, 1:01:37 am] Oli: And moved to Wiltshire [23/10/23, 1:01:42 am] Oli: Where we live in a nice dower house [23/10/23, 1:01:51 am] Oli: He was in Paris before [23/10/23, 1:01:55 am] Oli: After leaving Ireland [23/10/23, 1:02:02 am] Oli: Where my mother’s family are indeed from [23/10/23, 1:02:05 am] Oli: Not ‘apparently’ [23/10/23, 1:02:09 am] Oli: Never met someone as idiotic as you [23/10/23, 1:02:42 am] Sam: I hope you find your way out before it’s too late [23/10/23, 1:02:46 am] Oli: Indeed. And you too [23/10/23, 1:02:51 am] Oli: Maybe you’ll beat me too it ‎[23/10/23, 1:02:54 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [23/10/23, 1:03:22 am] Oli: Must be rather different from your bourgeois mediocrity of a family [23/10/23, 1:03:42 am] Sam: Is that really all you can see? [23/10/23, 1:03:43 am] Oli: You are really odd in your grasp of what you think are the facts [23/10/23, 1:03:45 am] Oli: Haha [23/10/23, 1:03:49 am] Oli: It shines through [23/10/23, 1:04:05 am] Sam: No, not whether my family is bourgeois, which it obviously it is [23/10/23, 1:04:09 am] Oli: Screams entitled middle class non entities [23/10/23, 1:04:19 am] Oli: My cousin once asked me ages ago [23/10/23, 1:04:26 am] Sam: I meant is that inane observation the only thing that you can perceive? [23/10/23, 1:04:29 am] Oli: Why bother hyphenating the Robinson and Adam’s [23/10/23, 1:04:35 am] Oli: As they aren’t exactly names to keep [23/10/23, 1:04:40 am] Oli: Babington cousin [23/10/23, 1:04:47 am] Oli: This must’ve been 2 years ago [23/10/23, 1:04:57 am] Sam: What? I think you’ve got the hyphenation rule the wrong way around [23/10/23, 1:04:56 am] Oli: When they asked where I got a bag of methadrone from [23/10/23, 1:04:57 am] Oli: LOL [23/10/23, 1:05:04 am] Sam: Hyphenating it is the non-upper thing to do [23/10/23, 1:05:21 am] Sam: Anyway, none of this matters, Christ, can you not see that? [23/10/23, 1:05:24 am] Oli: Well it’s for people who take a name via inheritance [23/10/23, 1:05:43 am] Sam: No, other way around [23/10/23, 1:05:48 am] Oli: You are ignorant [23/10/23, 1:05:50 am] Oli: It depends [23/10/23, 1:05:56 am] Sam: Freddie an exception [23/10/23, 1:05:59 am] Oli: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Vane-Tempest-Stewart,_7th_Marquess_of_Londonderry [23/10/23, 1:06:00 am] Sam: As I discussed with him ‎[23/10/23, 1:06:16 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [23/10/23, 1:06:19 am] Oli: Sans hyphen ‎[23/10/23, 1:06:30 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [23/10/23, 1:06:38 am] Oli: There is a difference between obvious double barrels and MC contrivances [23/10/23, 1:06:59 am] Sam: Yes, but you’ve got it the wrong way around, again [23/10/23, 1:07:05 am] Oli: Not really [23/10/23, 1:07:08 am] Sam: Hyphenated is the middle-class version [23/10/23, 1:07:12 am] Oli: You just conflate what I say with something very specific [23/10/23, 1:07:21 am] Sam: So this is bizarre nonsense [23/10/23, 1:07:30 am] Sam: Anyway [23/10/23, 1:07:29 am] Oli: Yes I’m sure it is if it’s taken up by modern people [23/10/23, 1:07:31 am] Sam: Again [23/10/23, 1:07:33 am] Sam: None of this matters [23/10/23, 1:07:34 am] Oli: This [23/10/23, 1:07:47 am] Oli: I think she meant why bother double barrelling [23/10/23, 1:07:49 am] Oli: But yes [23/10/23, 1:07:51 am] Sam: Do you not see that? Dear god [23/10/23, 1:08:09 am] Oli: Yes this seems to be a different point [23/10/23, 1:08:11 am] Sam: This is what I always suspected but I maybe hoped that putting it so bluntly would make you see how ridiculous it is [23/10/23, 1:08:16 am] Sam: But apparently not [23/10/23, 1:08:29 am] Sam: Good god I can’t be bothered with this any more to be quite honest [23/10/23, 1:08:36 am] Oli: Good [23/10/23, 1:08:47 am] Oli: HH [23/10/23, 1:08:47 am] Oli: Etc [23/10/23, 1:08:57 am] Sam: I obviously didn’t believe the silly pretence of not worshipping the upper class ‎[23/10/23, 1:09:08 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [23/10/23, 1:09:17 am] Sam: But I didn’t believe it was this … ugh, god, whatever, this is just depressing me [23/10/23, 1:09:22 am] Sam: I hope you escape [23/10/23, 1:09:42 am] Sam: Or else I hope you have a merry and happy life and forget about everything I’ve said right through the end ‎[23/10/23, 1:09:59 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[23/10/23, 1:10:02 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[23/10/23, 1:10:05 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[23/10/23, 1:11:08 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [23/10/23, 1:11:11 am] Oli: ‎You blocked this contact [26/12/23, 11:24:13 pm] Oli: ‎You unblocked this contact [27/12/23, 4:46:31 am] Sam: Lol I just saw this photo [27/12/23, 4:46:45 am] Oli: Hello [27/12/23, 4:46:50 am] Sam: Underappreciated the first time around [27/12/23, 4:46:55 am] Oli: Just on phone to woman who is with an ex friend of mine [27/12/23, 4:47:03 am] Oli: Who May go to clink for sexual abuse [27/12/23, 4:47:08 am] Oli: Madness [27/12/23, 4:47:12 am] Oli: Just explained it to her [27/12/23, 4:47:15 am] Oli: Normal [27/12/23, 4:47:29 am] Sam: God I want to fuck your little twink body [27/12/23, 4:47:33 am] Sam: And soul [27/12/23, 4:47:39 am] Oli: HH to you [27/12/23, 4:47:41 am] Sam: Sexual abuse? [27/12/23, 4:47:43 am] Oli: What are you on tonaayt [27/12/23, 4:47:47 am] Oli: I have finished t coooke [27/12/23, 4:47:50 am] Oli: Now just snuff [27/12/23, 4:47:53 am] Oli: Yes on women [27/12/23, 4:47:55 am] Oli: Apparently [27/12/23, 4:47:57 am] Oli: Mad [27/12/23, 4:48:08 am] Sam: To oinos [27/12/23, 4:48:30 am] Sam: Where are you? [27/12/23, 4:48:45 am] Oli: Atm in provincial England int cuntry [27/12/23, 4:48:55 am] Oli: Waiting for silly relations tomorrow [27/12/23, 4:49:03 am] Oli: Just made beds [27/12/23, 4:49:06 am] Oli: You can come and hide here [27/12/23, 4:49:07 am] Oli: Normal [27/12/23, 4:49:09 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/12/23, 4:49:24 am] Sam: Yes why not [27/12/23, 4:49:33 am] Sam: Where in England? [27/12/23, 4:49:47 am] Oli: Live in the most simple place [27/12/23, 4:49:53 am] Oli: Wiltshire Somerset border [27/12/23, 4:49:59 am] Oli: Nearly said England ‎[27/12/23, 4:50:33 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 4:50:35 am] Oli: Mad [27/12/23, 4:51:53 am] Sam: Dunno it well [27/12/23, 4:52:01 am] Sam: Uncle has one place here: ‎[27/12/23, 4:52:11 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 4:52:38 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 4:52:43 am] Oli: Looool ‎[27/12/23, 4:52:52 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 4:52:58 am] Oli: Yatesbury [27/12/23, 4:53:08 am] Oli: May be 30 mins [27/12/23, 4:53:40 am] Oli: Have you been ok [27/12/23, 4:53:40 am] Sam: Interesting [27/12/23, 4:53:48 am] Oli: You seem to have got back to normal [27/12/23, 4:53:49 am] Sam: How get there? [27/12/23, 4:54:03 am] Oli: Dick wittingdon walk [27/12/23, 4:54:18 am] Sam: Slightly mad Xmas interregnum as I usually do [27/12/23, 4:54:28 am] Oli: He liked cats too [27/12/23, 4:54:35 am] Oli: I find the whole thing odd [27/12/23, 4:55:35 am] Oli: I thought you were a submissive bottom RAAIGHT [27/12/23, 4:55:47 am] Oli: funny [27/12/23, 4:55:54 am] Oli: Goodness well easily done [27/12/23, 4:56:32 am] Sam: Yes I just clocked that you were probably dissembling about being a top [27/12/23, 4:56:50 am] Oli: Well [27/12/23, 4:56:51 am] Sam: Oh well, either way, you’re a bottom now [27/12/23, 4:56:51 am] Oli: I wonder [27/12/23, 4:57:07 am] Oli: Sounds like something the police said to mrfirsov [27/12/23, 4:57:19 am] Oli: When they thought he had drugs up his arse [27/12/23, 4:58:39 am] Oli: Hello sailor [27/12/23, 4:58:48 am] Sam: Be quiet xox ‎[27/12/23, 4:58:54 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [27/12/23, 4:59:00 am] Sam: Nah I’m kidding [27/12/23, 4:59:03 am] Oli: Loool ‎[27/12/23, 4:59:09 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted ‎[27/12/23, 4:59:11 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [27/12/23, 4:59:30 am] Oli: I’ve been totally smashed whole Christmas [27/12/23, 4:59:35 am] Oli: Was out of it on Christmas Day [27/12/23, 4:59:42 am] Oli: So aunt ended up cooking the meal apparently [27/12/23, 4:59:46 am] Oli: Madness [27/12/23, 4:59:53 am] Oli: I just sort of opened oven doors and checked on it [27/12/23, 4:59:54 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/12/23, 5:00:14 am] Oli: And went to cousin funeral in Dublin [27/12/23, 5:00:20 am] Oli: Mr Murphy was there ingratiating [27/12/23, 5:00:21 am] Oli: Very odd [27/12/23, 5:00:27 am] Oli: HH [27/12/23, 5:00:35 am] Oli: What about your Christmas [27/12/23, 5:00:42 am] Oli: Where is Damien [27/12/23, 5:00:45 am] Sam: Cute 😘 [27/12/23, 5:00:47 am] Oli: Being buggered probably [27/12/23, 5:00:59 am] Oli: 😎 ‎[27/12/23, 5:01:29 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:01:50 am] Sam: Not bad!! Pretty decent! I’m looking forward to seeing you 🩵 [27/12/23, 5:02:08 am] Oli: Goodness [27/12/23, 5:02:14 am] Oli: Are you a dominators [27/12/23, 5:02:18 am] Oli: Dominatrix ‎[27/12/23, 5:02:29 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 5:02:43 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 5:02:57 am] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 5:03:10 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:03:38 am] Sam: Oli you are categorically a bottom [27/12/23, 5:03:44 am] Oli: Normal [27/12/23, 5:03:46 am] Oli: I wonder [27/12/23, 5:03:51 am] Oli: I prefer buggering [27/12/23, 5:03:57 am] Oli: But like t aesthetic of bottom [27/12/23, 5:04:43 am] Oli: I always thought you preferred 🍆 [27/12/23, 5:05:27 am] Oli: Robinsonian arse [27/12/23, 5:05:28 am] Oli: Good idea [27/12/23, 5:05:58 am] Sam: Nah you have a nice dick but you’re definitely a bottom [27/12/23, 5:06:07 am] Sam: How old are you?? [27/12/23, 5:06:14 am] Oli: 26 [27/12/23, 5:06:42 am] Sam: You look good [27/12/23, 5:06:51 am] Sam: Pretty [27/12/23, 5:07:06 am] Sam: Youthful ‎[27/12/23, 5:07:09 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:07:16 am] Oli: 1997 [27/12/23, 5:07:22 am] Oli: Goodness!! [27/12/23, 5:07:32 am] Sam: Strange [27/12/23, 5:07:42 am] Oli: 🤣 [27/12/23, 5:07:45 am] Oli: How so [27/12/23, 5:08:32 am] Sam: You look much younger [27/12/23, 5:08:48 am] Oli: That photo 3 yrs old [27/12/23, 5:08:52 am] Oli: I think [27/12/23, 5:09:29 am] Sam: Oh no I mean I’m averaging out your face with more recent ones [27/12/23, 5:09:35 am] Oli: Oh [27/12/23, 5:09:38 am] Oli: Good idea [27/12/23, 5:09:41 am] Sam: I didn’t mean that photo in particular [27/12/23, 5:10:04 am] Sam: Though your body is 10/10 [27/12/23, 5:10:20 am] Oli: I am always IDd in shops [27/12/23, 5:10:25 am] Oli: Unless I don’t shave for few days [27/12/23, 5:10:28 am] Oli: Some do look younger [27/12/23, 5:10:41 am] Oli: Some people [27/12/23, 5:10:42 am] Oli: For age [27/12/23, 5:10:49 am] Oli: We must look after ourselves somehow [27/12/23, 5:10:54 am] Sam: Cute xox [27/12/23, 5:11:06 am] Sam: I like you Oli [27/12/23, 5:11:16 am] Oli: That’s news [27/12/23, 5:11:17 am] Oli: Goodness [27/12/23, 5:11:49 am] Sam: Well we’ll work that out [27/12/23, 5:12:07 am] Sam: Something recently tempered my position [27/12/23, 5:12:14 am] Sam: Will explain later [27/12/23, 5:12:16 am] Oli: Whay wa that [27/12/23, 5:12:19 am] Oli: What was that [27/12/23, 5:12:21 am] Oli: Flldnesss [27/12/23, 5:12:24 am] Oli: Your mental troubles ‎[27/12/23, 5:12:41 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:12:42 am] Sam: Oh, just arguing with family about Uyghurs [27/12/23, 5:12:47 am] Oli: Ah [27/12/23, 5:12:55 am] Sam: Made me recalibrate bar [27/12/23, 5:12:55 am] Oli: That somehow tempered you!! [27/12/23, 5:13:05 am] Sam: Not so high [27/12/23, 5:13:18 am] Oli: So you stopped using [27/12/23, 5:13:53 am] Sam: Oh no I’m still taking drugs if that’s what you mean [27/12/23, 5:14:06 am] Sam: Ho oinos = to methu [27/12/23, 5:14:13 am] Oli: Good idea ‎[27/12/23, 5:14:19 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:14:39 am] Sam: This is actually sweet [27/12/23, 5:14:44 am] Sam: Aww [27/12/23, 5:14:53 am] Oli: Last August [27/12/23, 5:15:12 am] Sam: I wanna see more of this human side of you [27/12/23, 5:15:34 am] Sam: I like what I see 💖 ‎[27/12/23, 5:15:37 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:15:48 am] Oli: Pissed [27/12/23, 5:16:17 am] Oli: Goodness [27/12/23, 5:16:49 am] Sam: Ah yes I probably need to do some classical/operant conditioning [27/12/23, 5:16:59 am] Oli: Good idea [27/12/23, 5:17:23 am] Sam: I like you a huge deal when you’re vulnerable and honest [27/12/23, 5:17:45 am] Sam: A lot a lot a lot [27/12/23, 5:17:57 am] Oli: Just put phone down on woman [27/12/23, 5:17:59 am] Oli: Hello [27/12/23, 5:18:01 am] Sam: Please trust me [27/12/23, 5:18:03 am] Oli: 🤣 [27/12/23, 5:18:07 am] Oli: Interesting [27/12/23, 5:18:29 am] Sam: This is sweet af [27/12/23, 5:18:38 am] Sam: Oks sec [27/12/23, 5:18:42 am] Sam: One sec [27/12/23, 5:18:48 am] Oli: I wonder what I was doing when took them [27/12/23, 5:18:50 am] Oli: Thank you haha [27/12/23, 5:18:55 am] Oli: 1 [27/12/23, 5:19:54 am] Sam: OH DEAR GOD OH GOD OH GOD [27/12/23, 5:20:08 am] Sam: I Made an iCloud album earlier [27/12/23, 5:20:14 am] Sam: Photos of myself [27/12/23, 5:20:17 am] Oli: I don’t know how those work [27/12/23, 5:20:19 am] Oli: Are they nice [27/12/23, 5:20:33 am] Sam: Since my mum wanted some for Xmas present calendars etc [27/12/23, 5:20:42 am] Sam: And just noticed [27/12/23, 5:20:52 am] Sam: When looking for photos to send you [27/12/23, 5:21:04 am] Sam: That I had somehow uploaded a nude photo [27/12/23, 5:21:08 am] Sam: Oh my god [27/12/23, 5:21:21 am] Sam: I don’t think I’ll ever stop cringing [27/12/23, 5:21:28 am] Oli: Why [27/12/23, 5:21:31 am] Oli: Is it bad [27/12/23, 5:21:42 am] Sam: No, us neither [27/12/23, 5:22:01 am] Sam: Ended up having to forward link to everyone since invites didn’t arrive [27/12/23, 5:22:12 am] Oli: So she must’ve seen them ‎[27/12/23, 5:22:21 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:22:37 am] Sam: Oh wait that was my Xmas album, but same point goes [27/12/23, 5:22:47 am] Sam: No clue tbqh [27/12/23, 5:22:56 am] Sam: Don’t want to know [27/12/23, 5:23:05 am] Sam: At least was a classical nude [27/12/23, 5:23:13 am] Sam: Not, like, fisting or whatever [27/12/23, 5:23:19 am] Sam: Good proportions [27/12/23, 5:23:25 am] Sam: But jesus [27/12/23, 5:23:52 am] Oli: They must’ve been happy [27/12/23, 5:24:54 am] Sam: But seriously: I have no interest in any of the social stuff, I just like you, like this, no pretences [27/12/23, 5:25:42 am] Oli: What about your nude [27/12/23, 5:25:51 am] Sam: Cute and handsome af [27/12/23, 5:25:55 am] Oli: That was me feigning shock to someone ages ago [27/12/23, 5:26:01 am] Oli: Forget the context [27/12/23, 5:26:21 am] Sam: I find you much cuter without that stuff ‎[27/12/23, 5:26:30 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [27/12/23, 5:26:40 am] Sam: For the first time I can see what people mean [27/12/23, 5:26:45 am] Oli: Goodness [27/12/23, 5:26:49 am] Oli: Road to Damascus [27/12/23, 5:27:20 am] Sam: Quite ‎[27/12/23, 5:27:22 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:27:26 am] Oli: Was going t go back this Jan [27/12/23, 5:27:31 am] Oli: Firsov is going tomorrow [27/12/23, 5:27:34 am] Oli: Not sure what to do [27/12/23, 5:27:41 am] Oli: All lunacy [27/12/23, 5:27:46 am] Oli: Trying to sort out new year somehow [27/12/23, 5:27:51 am] Sam: Cute boy [27/12/23, 5:28:00 am] Sam: Send me some more [27/12/23, 5:28:08 am] Oli: Shall find [27/12/23, 5:28:30 am] Sam: You’re pretty when you don’t look absurd ‎[27/12/23, 5:28:38 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:28:43 am] Oli: LOOL [27/12/23, 5:28:44 am] Oli: Absurd [27/12/23, 5:28:45 am] Oli: Haha ‎[27/12/23, 5:28:53 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:28:56 am] Oli: But fun [27/12/23, 5:29:00 am] Sam: Aww I love it [27/12/23, 5:29:17 am] Sam: I wish I’d seen this side of you earlier [27/12/23, 5:29:22 am] Oli: SAaaaaide [27/12/23, 5:29:42 am] Sam: I am hugely fond of these photos [27/12/23, 5:29:59 am] Sam: You look really beautiful [27/12/23, 5:30:23 am] Sam: Absolutely 10/10 cute [27/12/23, 5:30:29 am] Sam: Oli [27/12/23, 5:30:59 am] Sam: I love calling you Oli [27/12/23, 5:31:07 am] Oli: Very rarely been called thay [27/12/23, 5:31:09 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/12/23, 5:31:12 am] Sam: Oli Oli Oli [27/12/23, 5:31:23 am] Sam: Are you kidding [27/12/23, 5:31:27 am] Sam: Probably [27/12/23, 5:31:31 am] Oli: Usually called Babs [27/12/23, 5:31:36 am] Oli: 🤣 [27/12/23, 5:31:40 am] Sam: You need a new nickname [27/12/23, 5:31:58 am] Sam: Uhhh ‎[27/12/23, 5:32:04 am] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[27/12/23, 5:32:10 am] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[27/12/23, 5:32:42 am] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[27/12/23, 5:33:42 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [27/12/23, 5:34:06 am] Sam: Pretty 🥰 ‎[27/12/23, 5:34:14 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [27/12/23, 5:34:44 am] Sam: … no idea [27/12/23, 5:34:48 am] Sam: lol [27/12/23, 5:34:57 am] Oli: Presume he meant prostrate gland [27/12/23, 5:34:58 am] Oli: Odd ‎[27/12/23, 5:36:01 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [27/12/23, 5:36:06 am] Oli: And surname means ‘olive’ I think [27/12/23, 5:36:14 am] Oli: You are better than he ‎[27/12/23, 5:36:31 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:36:49 am] Sam: Wait who’s this? [27/12/23, 5:37:01 am] Oli: Pouf who stayed with us in Venice [27/12/23, 5:37:03 am] Oli: Alberto [27/12/23, 5:37:12 am] Oli: Man in those videos [27/12/23, 5:37:13 am] Oli: He’s mad [27/12/23, 5:37:15 am] Sam: He’s kinda hot ‎[27/12/23, 5:37:56 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:38:00 am] Oli: I thought so [27/12/23, 5:38:07 am] Oli: He turned out t’ be a bisexualist [27/12/23, 5:38:11 am] Oli: As then went with a woman [27/12/23, 5:38:15 am] Oli: So I was shouting at him [27/12/23, 5:38:16 am] Sam: What’s his surname? I can’t remember the word for olive [27/12/23, 5:38:18 am] Oli: And he didn’t speak English [27/12/23, 5:38:24 am] Oli: dal ollio [27/12/23, 5:38:32 am] Oli: So firsov had to translate to him [27/12/23, 5:38:33 am] Sam: Funnily enough I was about to suggest word for oil [27/12/23, 5:38:43 am] Sam: Oh wait I think that is the word for oil is it not ?? [27/12/23, 5:38:52 am] Oli: Maybe it’s oil [27/12/23, 5:38:55 am] Sam: Or rather olio with one L [27/12/23, 5:39:03 am] Sam: It may well be a similar word tho [27/12/23, 5:39:06 am] Sam: Like French ‎[27/12/23, 5:39:13 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:39:14 am] Sam: Huile d’olive [27/12/23, 5:39:22 am] Oli: He seems to be with a woman now [27/12/23, 5:39:28 am] Oli: Maybe provincial Italians are bisexualist [27/12/23, 5:39:36 am] Oli: Goodness [27/12/23, 5:39:40 am] Oli: Yes it could be oily [27/12/23, 5:40:03 am] Sam: Are you dating him? No way why do you keep getting these fucking guys who are uncannily my type [27/12/23, 5:40:16 am] Sam: Both him and (if real) Xander [27/12/23, 5:40:25 am] Sam: Eerily so [27/12/23, 5:40:32 am] Oli: No lol but he lived with me for a month in Venice [27/12/23, 5:40:34 am] Oli: At my expens e [27/12/23, 5:40:35 am] Oli: Normal [27/12/23, 5:40:39 am] Oli: So had it the [27/12/23, 5:40:40 am] Oli: Then [27/12/23, 5:41:00 am] Oli: He bit me have photo somewhere [27/12/23, 5:41:22 am] Sam: So love that dopey slightly pudgy blond type 😤 ‎[27/12/23, 5:41:32 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:41:37 am] Oli: Whole jaw in back [27/12/23, 5:41:39 am] Oli: Charming [27/12/23, 5:41:47 am] Sam: Ah- check for tetanus etc [27/12/23, 5:41:48 am] Oli: Firsov poured gin over it to sterilise it 🤣 [27/12/23, 5:41:56 am] Sam: Ah good idea [27/12/23, 5:42:21 am] Sam: God it’s the freddielemma ‎[27/12/23, 5:42:41 am] Oli: ‎video omitted ‎[27/12/23, 5:44:00 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [27/12/23, 5:44:18 am] Oli: Madness [27/12/23, 5:44:44 am] Sam: Gosh….. yeesh [27/12/23, 5:44:48 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/12/23, 5:44:57 am] Sam: Ok sorry wait one sec [27/12/23, 5:45:09 am] Sam: Must eat few morsels of food ‎[27/12/23, 5:46:16 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:46:18 am] Oli: Mad Italians [27/12/23, 5:46:22 am] Oli: He is with some slag Joan [27/12/23, 5:46:27 am] Oli: Now* not Joan [27/12/23, 5:46:29 am] Sam: These are so sweet [27/12/23, 5:46:31 am] Oli: Not sure how it’s going [27/12/23, 5:46:35 am] Sam: Srsly [27/12/23, 5:46:38 am] Oli: Good idea [27/12/23, 5:46:44 am] Oli: Goodness [27/12/23, 5:47:10 am] Sam: Too swarthy there [27/12/23, 5:47:19 am] Oli: Yes typical wop [27/12/23, 5:47:54 am] Oli: By the way [27/12/23, 5:48:06 am] Oli: I am not sure how to express this to you [27/12/23, 5:48:09 am] Oli: But [27/12/23, 5:48:13 am] Oli: Xander is actually messed up [27/12/23, 5:48:20 am] Oli: I was recently sent photos of him [27/12/23, 5:48:24 am] Sam: Messed up?? [27/12/23, 5:48:24 am] Oli: By one of his friends [27/12/23, 5:48:28 am] Oli: Dressed as a woman [27/12/23, 5:48:29 am] Oli: Yes [27/12/23, 5:48:31 am] Oli: Madness [27/12/23, 5:48:44 am] Oli: And he pretends to be normal [27/12/23, 5:48:47 am] Sam: Is he ok? Is he happy? [27/12/23, 5:48:53 am] Oli: I don’t know really [27/12/23, 5:49:07 am] Oli: He had Christmas with an aunt in Sussex [27/12/23, 5:49:16 am] Oli: And then today was in a pub in London [27/12/23, 5:49:20 am] Oli: Doing ‘job’ [27/12/23, 5:49:23 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [27/12/23, 5:49:30 am] Oli: Presumably gone home to dress up as a soma. [27/12/23, 5:49:34 am] Oli: A woman* [27/12/23, 5:49:51 am] Sam: Honestly if that’s what he wants to do then I entirely support him [27/12/23, 5:49:52 am] Oli: He is a loon [27/12/23, 5:50:08 am] Sam: Aw, no, don’t be mean [27/12/23, 5:50:29 am] Sam: Why the hell not? Gender is all bollocks anyway 🤷‍♀️ [27/12/23, 5:50:38 am] Sam: Freddie Mercury etc ‎[27/12/23, 5:50:55 am] Oli: ‎video omitted [27/12/23, 5:50:58 am] Oli: From TikTok [27/12/23, 5:51:01 am] Oli: He seems to be normal [27/12/23, 5:51:04 am] Oli: He’s not gay at all [27/12/23, 5:51:16 am] Oli: Just dressing up as a woman [27/12/23, 5:51:20 am] Oli: And trying to be normal [27/12/23, 5:51:28 am] Oli: He told someone the other day I am mad [27/12/23, 5:51:31 am] Oli: Lol [27/12/23, 5:51:34 am] Oli: Well he’s totally normal [27/12/23, 5:52:07 am] Sam: Is he styling himself as a woman? Pronouns etc? Or just crossdressing? [27/12/23, 5:52:10 am] Oli: In January he will get his driving licence back I suspect [27/12/23, 5:52:15 am] Oli: So he can go back on his esoteric tours [27/12/23, 5:52:20 am] Oli: Of the British isles [27/12/23, 5:52:29 am] Oli: As a woman [27/12/23, 5:52:32 am] Oli: LOL [27/12/23, 5:52:35 am] Oli: Not public [27/12/23, 5:52:37 am] Sam: I will never turn on Xander [27/12/23, 5:52:42 am] Oli: Nobody knows really [27/12/23, 5:52:47 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/12/23, 5:52:58 am] Sam: Aw, I will come along and support him [27/12/23, 5:53:02 am] Sam: God bless him [27/12/23, 5:53:05 am] Oli: You can be a woman with him [27/12/23, 5:53:13 am] Sam: My sister was just in CA [27/12/23, 5:53:22 am] Sam: And stayed at a hotel in Death Valley [27/12/23, 5:53:35 am] Sam: That had been bought by this old Broadway actress [27/12/23, 5:53:43 am] Sam: Who every night gave one-woman shows [27/12/23, 5:53:46 am] Sam: At the hotel [27/12/23, 5:53:57 am] Sam: Eventually to nobody [27/12/23, 5:54:22 am] Sam: As with Slape and the imaginary hospital stay, and Rupert and the funeral, etc: I will be there for him [27/12/23, 5:55:33 am] Sam: If necessary for years, if necessary alone [27/12/23, 5:56:05 am] Oli: A distant cousin of mine once married a man (she is a woman) [27/12/23, 5:56:15 am] Oli: She said she first realised something was wrong with her marriage when… [27/12/23, 5:56:23 am] Oli: She saw her husband on the sofa dressed up as a woman [27/12/23, 5:56:32 am] Oli: He beat her up etc like silence of the lambs [27/12/23, 5:56:44 am] Sam: Jesus [27/12/23, 5:57:04 am] Sam: Similar story (minus cross dressing) with my Norwich aunt whom I mentioned [27/12/23, 5:57:11 am] Sam: Married first husband [27/12/23, 5:57:15 am] Sam: Mr Right ‎[27/12/23, 5:57:28 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:57:29 am] Sam: Lots of jokes told at wedding [27/12/23, 5:57:35 am] Oli: Jonathan he called himself Tara [27/12/23, 5:57:42 am] Sam: And ofc he savagely beat her and they divorced [27/12/23, 5:57:51 am] Sam: Weirdly common drag name [27/12/23, 5:58:03 am] Sam: Perhaps cos also male in Ireland? [27/12/23, 5:58:08 am] Sam: Hedging bets? [27/12/23, 5:58:57 am] Oli: Goodness [27/12/23, 5:58:59 am] Oli: Yes it could be ‎[27/12/23, 5:59:12 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 5:59:20 am] Oli: Very funny [27/12/23, 5:59:26 am] Oli: Most don’t know [27/12/23, 5:59:32 am] Sam: He’s cute [27/12/23, 5:59:33 am] Oli: It was always odd [27/12/23, 5:59:41 am] Sam: I like everyone involved [27/12/23, 5:59:44 am] Oli: Woman [27/12/23, 5:59:47 am] Oli: HH [27/12/23, 5:59:55 am] Oli: He says I am mad [27/12/23, 6:00:00 am] Oli: He is a tranny [27/12/23, 6:00:06 am] Sam: I have a very protective feeling towards zander [27/12/23, 6:00:19 am] Oli: Well I don’t think it’s out and out trsnny [27/12/23, 6:00:32 am] Sam: Nah don’t call him that [27/12/23, 6:00:33 am] Oli: Probably just some way of getting excited or whatever [27/12/23, 6:00:38 am] Sam: Or in that way [27/12/23, 6:00:48 am] Sam: Less about words than implied venom [27/12/23, 6:00:55 am] Sam: He’s a sweet human being [27/12/23, 6:01:05 am] Sam: In a sensitive place [27/12/23, 6:01:33 am] Sam: To hell with whatever thoughts I have in the abstract, I will fiercely support him [27/12/23, 6:02:02 am] Oli: Well I don’t know [27/12/23, 6:02:07 am] Oli: But I agree ultimately he is nice [27/12/23, 6:02:12 am] Sam: Autogynephilia as they call it [27/12/23, 6:03:09 am] Sam: (Terf epithet for any trans person, but of crossdressers/transvestites it’s more or less the truth) [27/12/23, 6:03:21 am] Sam: No but seriously [27/12/23, 6:03:49 am] Sam: We make our lovers into gods and then destroy them for being mortal [27/12/23, 6:04:03 am] Sam: Love [27/12/23, 6:04:19 am] Sam: Dilige & fac quod vis [27/12/23, 6:05:17 am] Oli: Not encountered it much [27/12/23, 6:05:37 am] Sam: I like you, you’re a good person, genoito hoios essin [27/12/23, 6:05:59 am] Sam: Seriously don’t say anything like that to Xander [27/12/23, 6:06:03 am] Sam: Please [27/12/23, 6:06:15 am] Oli: I don’t know what to say anymore [27/12/23, 6:07:02 am] Sam: I have read enough court of protection and nhs cases where people have killed themselves because of something like that [27/12/23, 6:07:22 am] Sam: I’m imploring you [27/12/23, 6:07:36 am] Sam: Please don’t [27/12/23, 6:07:40 am] Oli: Please don’t say that [27/12/23, 6:07:44 am] Oli: Had enough death madness [27/12/23, 6:07:49 am] Oli: This 2023 [27/12/23, 6:07:56 am] Oli: Even your near miss [27/12/23, 6:07:58 am] Oli: Horrible [27/12/23, 6:08:37 am] Sam: 😕 sorry - but please please be loving [27/12/23, 6:09:03 am] Sam: I feel quite strongly about this [27/12/23, 6:09:18 am] Sam: You are his friend [27/12/23, 6:09:38 am] Sam: Greater love hath no man than this ‎[27/12/23, 6:09:42 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 6:10:05 am] Sam: That he lay down his gripes for his friends [27/12/23, 6:10:07 am] Oli: I shouldn’t send these [27/12/23, 6:10:11 am] Oli: Mad [27/12/23, 6:10:18 am] Oli: Christmas has sent me mad [27/12/23, 6:11:05 am] Sam: Aw, no, don’t, he looks sweet - I feel really viscerally opposed to and uncomprehending of this kind of judgement [27/12/23, 6:11:12 am] Sam: Ultimately [27/12/23, 6:11:23 am] Sam: Social/political chatter is one thing [27/12/23, 6:11:53 am] Oli: Well I said he and people can come for new year and he didn’t say anything [27/12/23, 6:12:02 am] Oli: So I don’t know what is happening [27/12/23, 6:12:11 am] Oli: And firsov wanted me to go to Venice and be mad [27/12/23, 6:12:15 am] Sam: But if one’s friend wants to do something - and it’s not dangerous or at least he’s as compos mentis as usual - one supports him [27/12/23, 6:12:19 am] Oli: Loonies on all sides [27/12/23, 6:12:24 am] Sam: Or indeed her [27/12/23, 6:12:41 am] Oli: I called him Xandi [27/12/23, 6:12:44 am] Oli: As a hybrid name [27/12/23, 6:12:50 am] Oli: Not sure what going on [27/12/23, 6:12:56 am] Oli: Don’t think he is a woman [27/12/23, 6:12:59 am] Oli: Think it is a blip [27/12/23, 6:13:07 am] Oli: He doesn’t do it publicly anyway [27/12/23, 6:13:15 am] Sam: Aww, I know it’s rough on partners when this sorta thing happens [27/12/23, 6:13:33 am] Sam: I remember feeling very bad for Philip Schofield’s wife [27/12/23, 6:13:49 am] Sam: The TV man [27/12/23, 6:14:10 am] Sam: (Dunno who he is really except through these very scandals - I never watch TV) [27/12/23, 6:14:44 am] Oli: He made me cry early December because he was just saying I am ‘mad’ and all my friends are ‘mad’ etc and the like [27/12/23, 6:14:46 am] Sam: But he came out and separated or maybe divorced from her and went and gave interviews about how wonderful and happy it all was [27/12/23, 6:14:49 am] Oli: And a cousin just died [27/12/23, 6:14:56 am] Oli: So an odd Christmas [27/12/23, 6:15:11 am] Oli: And telling people something along the lines of I am not normal [27/12/23, 6:15:14 am] Oli: Whatever that means [27/12/23, 6:15:20 am] Sam: And I remember thinking ‘fuck you, you ditched your wife and child’ [27/12/23, 6:15:23 am] Oli: He is totally normal [27/12/23, 6:15:27 am] Oli: God [27/12/23, 6:15:38 am] Oli: I found that a spectacle [27/12/23, 6:15:42 am] Sam: That is not really untrue [27/12/23, 6:15:58 am] Sam: (I don’t think you’re genuinely mad but your behaviour is very mad and exasperating at points) [27/12/23, 6:16:10 am] Sam: Less so today [27/12/23, 6:16:35 am] Oli: Well I am just at the end of lots of deaths [27/12/23, 6:16:42 am] Sam: But… love those who hate you, pray for those who despitefully use you, etc etc [27/12/23, 6:16:45 am] Oli: And an ordeal catering for people at Christmas [27/12/23, 6:16:55 am] Oli: And Timmy is ignoring me again [27/12/23, 6:16:59 am] Oli: Entitled [27/12/23, 6:17:01 am] Oli: Prick [27/12/23, 6:17:09 am] Oli: He also didn’t answer my invitation. [27/12/23, 6:17:15 am] Sam: Yeah fuck Timmy [27/12/23, 6:17:27 am] Oli: And then this evening I was on phone to female friend helping her [27/12/23, 6:17:32 am] Oli: Then you unlocked me and popped up [27/12/23, 6:17:46 am] Sam: Timmy does not arouse this same instinct in me as does Xander [27/12/23, 6:17:54 am] Oli: Was quite a surprise! ‎[27/12/23, 6:18:11 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 6:18:17 am] Oli: Wants a waffen SS uniform [27/12/23, 6:18:32 am] Sam: Which I think is an unconscious recognition of the fact that he’s a knave and a bounder ‎[27/12/23, 6:18:50 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 6:18:54 am] Oli: I sent him some silly videos [27/12/23, 6:18:56 am] Oli: Which he now has [27/12/23, 6:19:02 am] Oli: Doubtless he has sent them [27/12/23, 6:19:08 am] Sam: Yeah he’s just a decorticated wombat, I have zero interest in him [27/12/23, 6:19:11 am] Oli: Why are people our age so devoid of things [27/12/23, 6:19:50 am] Sam: What videos? [27/12/23, 6:20:11 am] Sam: What, humanity? It’s bred out of us ‎[27/12/23, 6:20:13 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 6:20:20 am] Oli: Well… [27/12/23, 6:20:22 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/12/23, 6:20:25 am] Oli: Madness! [27/12/23, 6:20:31 am] Oli: Probably right [27/12/23, 6:20:54 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [27/12/23, 6:21:03 am] Oli: Decorticated wombat [27/12/23, 6:21:25 am] Sam: Festung? [27/12/23, 6:21:34 am] Sam: Fisting*? ‎[27/12/23, 6:21:41 am] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 6:21:46 am] Oli: ‘On the packet’ [27/12/23, 6:21:52 am] Oli: Not quite [27/12/23, 6:21:54 am] Oli: Never done fishing [27/12/23, 6:21:56 am] Oli: Fisting [27/12/23, 6:22:04 am] Oli: Sent wanking and dildo [27/12/23, 6:22:09 am] Oli: Perverted his responses [27/12/23, 6:22:13 am] Oli: Now think about it [27/12/23, 6:22:21 am] Sam: Don’t want to know!! [27/12/23, 6:22:27 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [27/12/23, 6:22:30 am] Sam: Christ this just makes me think of my flatmate creepy Chris [27/12/23, 6:23:13 am] Sam: And his internet dildo video which his ancient enemy Milo Yiannopoulos (they knew each other back in the day) managed to find and write about [27/12/23, 6:23:20 am] Oli: I get drunk and leave him awful phone messages [27/12/23, 6:23:25 am] Oli: Not sure why I don’t usually do that [27/12/23, 6:23:36 am] Oli: Must be saving them and reporting me to the police [27/12/23, 6:23:38 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/12/23, 6:23:50 am] Oli: Milo Y is a total loon [27/12/23, 6:23:54 am] Oli: I wonder what Milo is up to [27/12/23, 6:24:09 am] Sam: https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2015/04/27/tech-city-darling-chris-leydon-guilty-of-making-indecent-images-of-children/ here ya go ‎[27/12/23, 6:24:36 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 6:24:53 am] Oli: ‘Hardwick Place’ [27/12/23, 6:25:23 am] Sam: Oh yeah I remember that one [27/12/23, 6:25:33 am] Oli: God [27/12/23, 6:26:18 am] Sam: Ok must go briefly but please do message in the interim if helps to compose thoughts [27/12/23, 6:26:42 am] Sam: And please Oli stay like this [27/12/23, 6:26:50 am] Sam: I like you so so much [27/12/23, 6:26:53 am] Oli: Where are you going [27/12/23, 6:27:06 am] Oli: I am up in few hours to say hello to more odd family People coming [27/12/23, 6:27:09 am] Sam: Please don’t dissipate into nonsense [27/12/23, 6:27:21 am] Oli: I feel like I am already there [27/12/23, 6:27:29 am] Sam: Food eating and thumbs resting [27/12/23, 6:27:29 am] Oli: Or in purgatory [27/12/23, 6:27:48 am] Oli: Reading old letters my cousin wrote [27/12/23, 6:27:53 am] Sam: Oh no that I don’t mind but just not the Firsov stuff [27/12/23, 6:27:53 am] Oli: He died 10 December [27/12/23, 6:28:01 am] Sam: Shit [27/12/23, 6:28:02 am] Oli: Odd [27/12/23, 6:28:03 am] Sam: How? [27/12/23, 6:28:06 am] Oli: Old age [27/12/23, 6:28:09 am] Sam: I’m so sorry [27/12/23, 6:28:13 am] Oli: He is grandpa cousin [27/12/23, 6:28:17 am] Oli: So twice removed [27/12/23, 6:28:24 am] Oli: But he was a surrogate grandpa to me sometimes [27/12/23, 6:28:27 am] Oli: And a pouf [27/12/23, 6:28:32 am] Oli: But married [27/12/23, 6:28:33 am] Sam: Oh jesus ah ok that’s marginally better but I get it [27/12/23, 6:28:47 am] Oli: Oh LOL [27/12/23, 6:28:52 am] Oli: You actually don’t like the firsov stuff [27/12/23, 6:28:54 am] Oli: That’s funny [27/12/23, 6:28:56 am] Oli: Most don’t [27/12/23, 6:29:05 am] Oli: I am always told about that [27/12/23, 6:29:13 am] Oli: Yes I wonder what his future holds [27/12/23, 6:29:34 am] Oli: Oddly ‎[27/12/23, 6:29:37 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 6:29:38 am] Oli: He was a cousin of Rupert [27/12/23, 6:29:47 am] Oli: He was the one who told me Rupert stayed with him In Dublin [27/12/23, 6:29:49 am] Oli: Years ago [27/12/23, 6:29:55 am] Oli: When I told him in Oct Rupert does [27/12/23, 6:29:57 am] Oli: Died [27/12/23, 6:30:36 am] Oli: Haha [27/12/23, 6:30:41 am] Oli: Most criticise the content he produces [27/12/23, 6:30:44 am] Oli: As offensive [27/12/23, 6:30:47 am] Oli: Etc [27/12/23, 6:30:56 am] Oli: Your criticism is somewhat different [27/12/23, 6:31:10 am] Sam: I might if I ever had the bad sense to watch it! [27/12/23, 6:31:20 am] Oli: That’s funny [27/12/23, 6:31:30 am] Oli: War [27/12/23, 6:31:31 am] Oli: Sabotage [27/12/23, 6:31:32 am] Oli: Haha [27/12/23, 6:32:18 am] Sam: Anyway I must go briefly but we will talk later [27/12/23, 6:32:26 am] Sam: 🫶🏻 ily [27/12/23, 6:32:33 am] Oli: I will be preparing myself for silly uncle visiting [27/12/23, 6:32:39 am] Oli: But love to talk [27/12/23, 6:32:44 am] Sam: Be good to Xander [27/12/23, 6:32:52 am] Sam: Seriously [27/12/23, 6:32:56 am] Oli: Lol it’s not down to me [27/12/23, 6:32:59 am] Oli: It’s his parents [27/12/23, 6:33:17 am] Oli: He hasn’t seen me in a month or two [27/12/23, 6:33:21 am] Oli: Nice [27/12/23, 6:33:33 am] Sam: Aw, I’m sorry [27/12/23, 6:33:43 am] Oli: And he was rude someone told me [27/12/23, 6:33:59 am] Sam: Often people are unaccountable shits after ‘coming out’ as x or y [27/12/23, 6:34:05 am] Oli: Yes well it’s a normal life [27/12/23, 6:34:16 am] Oli: I have been assessing my life choices for a while since that [27/12/23, 6:34:20 am] Sam: In my friend Tom Faire I called it gay teenagehood [27/12/23, 6:34:28 am] Oli: He hasn’t come out as anything [27/12/23, 6:34:31 am] Sam: More benign with him [27/12/23, 6:34:34 am] Sam: Soho etc [27/12/23, 6:34:45 am] Oli: I shouldn’t send things ahout him really [27/12/23, 6:34:48 am] Sam: Was good to his ex-wife, great partners [27/12/23, 6:34:50 am] Oli: But it made me angry [27/12/23, 6:34:59 am] Sam: But many people seem to do a Gauguin [27/12/23, 6:35:28 am] Oli: I think he has bipolar [27/12/23, 6:35:33 am] Oli: Suitable for him [27/12/23, 6:35:35 am] Sam: Aw I get it, I 100% do, it’s fucking rough [27/12/23, 6:35:38 am] Oli: Yes [27/12/23, 6:35:50 am] Sam: Why do you think so? [27/12/23, 6:36:07 am] Oli: Because of how he behaves [27/12/23, 6:36:23 am] Oli: He is abusive and wilfully so [27/12/23, 6:36:35 am] Oli: And is nice to others [27/12/23, 6:36:47 am] Oli: And said I am ‘clinically insane’ [27/12/23, 6:37:00 am] Oli: He left me feeling very happy [27/12/23, 6:37:05 am] Oli: HH to that [27/12/23, 6:37:13 am] Oli: Coke for us all [27/12/23, 6:37:47 am] Sam: I don’t know quite how you act in his presence - to be blunt, it is not unimaginable to me that this conclusion could be justified [27/12/23, 6:37:51 am] Oli: He doesn’t answer the phone either [27/12/23, 6:38:02 am] Sam: You mean he felt happy? Or you did? [27/12/23, 6:38:04 am] Oli: Said he is busy with ‘his family’ at Christmas [27/12/23, 6:38:15 am] Oli: I felt unhappy [27/12/23, 6:38:20 am] Oli: Sarcasm that was [27/12/23, 6:38:25 am] Oli: About happy [27/12/23, 6:38:26 am] Sam: Aw, this is really brutal - it’s easy for even good people to do, seemingly [27/12/23, 6:38:41 am] Sam: Like, my brother did it with his very sweet school girlfriend polly [27/12/23, 6:38:53 am] Sam: Just broke up with her, never mentioned her again, totally untroubled, no contact [27/12/23, 6:38:58 am] Sam: And my mum was devastated for her [27/12/23, 6:39:23 am] Oli: Horrible [27/12/23, 6:39:27 am] Sam: A certain froideur [27/12/23, 6:39:34 am] Oli: ❤️ [27/12/23, 6:39:46 am] Sam: God also a school friend [27/12/23, 6:40:02 am] Sam: Conspired to break up with his girlfriend by kissing someone else (premeditatedly!) at her birthday party [27/12/23, 6:40:21 am] Sam: “When kids were gay and cruel” or something like that, as mr Peter Pan whatever his name was said [27/12/23, 6:40:35 am] Sam: J M Barrie [27/12/23, 6:40:38 am] Oli: It is sad [27/12/23, 6:40:46 am] Oli: JM Barrie was great [27/12/23, 6:41:13 am] Oli: Love Barrie [27/12/23, 6:41:47 am] Oli: I find it all odd [27/12/23, 6:41:51 am] Oli: And was upset about you [27/12/23, 6:42:10 am] Oli: Your near departure [27/12/23, 6:44:18 am] Oli: Glad you are better [27/12/23, 6:44:28 am] Oli: I am a disgrace staying up so late like a degenerate [27/12/23, 6:44:34 am] Oli: What is going on in the world [27/12/23, 6:44:38 am] Oli: I don’t know [27/12/23, 6:49:43 am] Oli: Quite a scary prospect 🤣 [27/12/23, 6:49:55 am] Oli: Tits in t’ trolley [27/12/23, 6:51:00 am] Oli: This made me laugh [27/12/23, 6:51:03 am] Oli: 🤡 [27/12/23, 6:51:16 am] Oli: Sleep well [27/12/23, 6:51:21 am] Oli: Or whatever it is you will do [27/12/23, 6:51:22 am] Oli: Xx [27/12/23, 6:51:35 am] Oli: I shall hopefully sleep a tad ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:48 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:48 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:49 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:49 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:50 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:50 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:51 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:51 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:52 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:52 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:53 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:54 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:54 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:55 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:55 am] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:53:56 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 6:54:08 am] Sam: Sorry, I got a bit stuck into that one [27/12/23, 6:54:28 am] Oli: are these Christmas? [27/12/23, 6:54:33 am] Oli: The photos? [27/12/23, 6:54:49 am] Sam: Thank you, I will do that or do well whatever else I might do [27/12/23, 6:54:53 am] Oli: A very happy family [27/12/23, 6:55:39 am] Oli: ❤️ [27/12/23, 6:56:32 am] Oli: Hopefully a better 2024 for us soon [27/12/23, 6:56:34 am] Oli: All [27/12/23, 6:56:57 am] Oli: When I process all the sadness of this end of year re all deaths happening so soon etc [27/12/23, 6:57:12 am] Oli: Had an enjoyable Christmas [27/12/23, 6:57:22 am] Oli: Was semi conscious throughout it 🤣🤣 [27/12/23, 6:59:39 am] Sam: Likewise!! Also yes the deaths are terrible… in ictu oculi… 👁️ 💨 [27/12/23, 7:00:10 am] Sam: If you need solace, tennyson’s in memoriam is a superb thing to dive into [27/12/23, 7:00:16 am] Sam: Must pause now [27/12/23, 7:00:22 am] Oli: Thank you [27/12/23, 7:00:26 am] Oli: Yes I’m falling asleep too [27/12/23, 7:00:29 am] Oli: Or whatever [27/12/23, 7:04:25 am] Sam: Go to sleep pretty boy xox [27/12/23, 7:04:32 am] Sam: Sweet dreams [27/12/23, 7:04:42 am] Sam: I’ll see you soon [27/12/23, 7:04:46 am] Oli: Thank you I like this ❤️❤️ [27/12/23, 7:05:00 am] Oli: You can cuddle up [27/12/23, 7:05:25 am] Oli: That would be normal [27/12/23, 7:05:41 am] Oli: Can suck your member [27/12/23, 7:05:49 am] Oli: I did that to someone few weeks ago first time in while [27/12/23, 7:05:51 am] Oli: He was straight [27/12/23, 7:05:56 am] Sam: I would like that to be normal 🤍 [27/12/23, 7:05:59 am] Oli: But coke made him Randy [27/12/23, 7:06:00 am] Oli: 🤣🤣 [27/12/23, 7:06:06 am] Sam: I would like that very much [27/12/23, 7:06:14 am] Oli: ❤️❤️❤️ [27/12/23, 7:06:27 am] Oli: Cum in my mouth [27/12/23, 7:06:31 am] Oli: Nice idea [27/12/23, 7:07:06 am] Sam: Haha, or in your throat [27/12/23, 7:07:07 am] Oli: Your WhatsApp picture is very hot [27/12/23, 7:08:31 am] Oli: You are I should say [27/12/23, 7:08:50 am] Sam: This is my fave but bc of vibe rather than exact look (dw I remember it’s a few years old ) [27/12/23, 7:09:07 am] Oli: Haha that is interesting [27/12/23, 7:09:09 am] Oli: Good idea [27/12/23, 7:10:00 am] Sam: So are you - I can’t quite explain why the change of reaction, as am worn out from texting [27/12/23, 7:10:24 am] Sam: Sleep well pretty boy [27/12/23, 7:10:38 am] Oli: ❤️ [27/12/23, 7:10:48 am] Oli: I like you being nice ❤️❤️ [27/12/23, 7:10:58 am] Oli: Goodnight sweetie pie [27/12/23, 7:11:13 am] Oli: Thank you for nice messages [27/12/23, 7:11:33 am] Oli: And you too sexy ♥️ [27/12/23, 7:12:02 am] Oli: ❤️😴 [27/12/23, 7:27:08 am] Sam: I can’t get over how fucking adorable this is [27/12/23, 7:27:42 am] Sam: You are so pretty and I’m so glad I’ve seen this side of you [27/12/23, 7:28:05 am] Oli: The nicest thing anyone has said to me in half a year. [27/12/23, 7:28:10 am] Oli: Thank you bby 🤣 [27/12/23, 7:28:12 am] Oli: ❤️❤️ [27/12/23, 7:28:13 am] Sam: Lusms (as we said at school in the early 2010s!) [27/12/23, 7:28:41 am] Sam: Ur welcome bb [27/12/23, 7:29:03 am] Oli: The nice old Sam. ❤️ lovely little baby xx [27/12/23, 7:29:21 am] Oli: 💋 [27/12/23, 7:29:54 am] Oli: Made me happy [27/12/23, 7:30:14 am] Oli: Madly true [27/12/23, 8:19:47 am] Sam: So wait, what is up with Xander? When did the crossdressing start? Shall I ask my dad what the Freudian take would be? (I swear to god, it is eerily often correct, and not just in a bullshitty cold reading way…) [27/12/23, 8:21:41 am] Oli: Just going to sleep for bit ❤️❤️ [27/12/23, 2:47:32 pm] Oli: Hello [27/12/23, 2:48:00 pm] Oli: Just woke up [27/12/23, 3:11:37 pm] Sam: Oh hey 😘 [27/12/23, 3:11:50 pm] Oli: 🥰 [27/12/23, 3:12:24 pm] Sam: (I promise I’m not saying all this solely to engineer a meeting but) I would be very keen to chat to old McMillan-Scott if ever there’s an opportunity [27/12/23, 3:12:36 pm] Sam: Major props to him as well [27/12/23, 3:13:18 pm] Sam: Only real friend the Falun Gong/Dafa / Uyghurs / Hui / etc seem ever to have had in the EU [27/12/23, 3:32:18 pm] Oli: Or this 🥰 [27/12/23, 3:33:18 pm] Oli: I never realised [27/12/23, 3:37:12 pm] Oli: Interesting. He’d probably like it. [27/12/23, 3:37:27 pm] Oli: Quite something. [27/12/23, 3:39:19 pm] Sam: Yeah, absolutely, I think it deserves huge credit! [27/12/23, 3:39:31 pm] Sam: Sorry, will reply properly asap [27/12/23, 3:39:44 pm] Sam: Just crazy golfing ‎[27/12/23, 3:40:07 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 3:40:23 pm] Oli: Looks potentially crazy! [27/12/23, 6:10:24 pm] Sam: Ok sorry we went for dinner etc, now back! It was indeed crazy! Actually it made me feel quite sick, for once non-morally… [27/12/23, 6:18:32 pm] Sam: And no, I really think it’s a huge credit to him. When everyone else has been either indifferent (most of us, culpably) or positively complicit profiteers and quislings (many doctors, the UK govt with its perfidious equivocations and mealy-mouthed complaints that Mount Evidence is not yet quite tall enough for its liking, etc), he and a very few other people stood up for people being murdered (in ways whose horror the word ‘murder’ does not adequately convey) in a little forgotten corner of the world for our advantage. I doubt he’ll ever get the thanks he deserves. 🙇‍♂️ ‎[27/12/23, 6:23:32 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 6:23:33 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 7:15:00 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted ‎[27/12/23, 7:15:03 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 7:15:27 pm] Oli: These two posts over Christmas by a friend struck me as interesting because of the contrast between the two and ease of posting such [27/12/23, 7:16:15 pm] Oli: Similar [27/12/23, 10:18:49 pm] Sam: This upsets and angers me [27/12/23, 10:19:14 pm] Sam: “Sick world, yea dead, yea putrefied” ‎[27/12/23, 10:21:57 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 10:28:04 pm] Sam: And I really … this fills me with rage. Many of these people have fought in our army too, to defend the king or queen or whichever fucking one of them it was at the time. And these people have their thousand-room palaces empty under armed guard while those who served them freeze to death on the street, usually after being unceremoniously cashiered for admitting to post-traumatic stress. I very very sincerely would like to see those fucking people’s heads on pikes. ‎[27/12/23, 10:34:26 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 10:34:50 pm] Sam: Sorry, I’ll delete all this, I just … christ, fucking christ ‎[27/12/23, 10:36:46 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [27/12/23, 10:55:56 pm] Sam: I mean it’s fucking contemptible, fucking pathetic, really, the behaviour of almost every fortunate person I know [27/12/23, 10:57:34 pm] Sam: And I am SICK of being told I should make my peace with it [27/12/23, 10:57:38 pm] Sam: No [27/12/23, 10:57:53 pm] Sam: It can fucking well make its peace with me [27/12/23, 11:08:49 pm] Sam: https://youtu.be/GL-ZoNhUFmc god fucking bless pac - the others have no excuse [29/12/23, 1:55:42 am] Oli: Yes I find the hypocrisy present in some charities very offputting but now take it for granted a lot of the time. [29/12/23, 1:56:33 am] Oli: Where? Do they forego heating? [29/12/23, 1:57:48 am] Oli: Don’t think I’ve ever seen a video of him speaking [29/12/23, 1:57:54 am] Oli: I might’ve done a while ago but I forget [29/12/23, 1:58:50 am] Oli: Still have people here it’s mad but my uncle seems to be like me and just sleeps all day [29/12/23, 1:59:12 am] Oli: gets up late afternoon then goes quiet after midnight [29/12/23, 1:59:14 am] Oli: Funny [29/12/23, 1:59:25 am] Oli: Probably off to Venice and the dolomites next week [29/12/23, 1:59:28 am] Oli: Thurs 4th [29/12/23, 1:59:36 am] Oli: Firsov is there with the Italian boys [29/12/23, 1:59:44 am] Oli: One of whom I sent videos of recently 🤣 [29/12/23, 1:59:50 am] Oli: Going to shay with them [29/12/23, 1:59:54 am] Oli: They are nuts but funny [29/12/23, 2:00:15 am] Oli: I am planning on returning Monday the 8th and forcing it because otherwise it will go on for a month and a half again like last time [29/12/23, 2:00:28 am] Oli: Stay [29/12/23, 2:01:07 am] Oli: They were getting their penises on video chat earlier [29/12/23, 2:01:11 am] Oli: Funny Italians [29/12/23, 2:01:41 am] Oli: And then showed me a video of myself wanking shouting ‘Mussolini’ and the names of a few Germans whilst in Venice [29/12/23, 2:01:46 am] Oli: I had never seen that before [29/12/23, 2:01:49 am] Oli: And didn’t even recall it [29/12/23, 2:01:55 am] Oli: Must’ve been very pissed [29/12/23, 2:02:10 am] Oli: I must get the video off them 🤣 [29/12/23, 2:03:00 am] Oli: They have others staying too. Firsov in a bed with a man and a woman currently [29/12/23, 2:03:11 am] Oli: I am wondering what will happen [29/12/23, 2:03:12 am] Oli: 🤣 [29/12/23, 2:03:18 am] Oli: Funny [29/12/23, 2:03:40 am] Oli: Will fly from London [29/12/23, 2:03:44 am] Oli: Would be funny if you came [29/12/23, 2:03:46 am] Oli: Imagine [29/12/23, 2:03:53 am] Oli: It would probably be too mad for you [29/12/23, 2:04:23 am] Oli: The Carrabineri took their details today as they’d had 5 reports lodged against them (their group inspired by Firsov) behaving badly [29/12/23, 2:04:29 am] Oli: So already known [29/12/23, 2:04:30 am] Oli: 🤣 [29/12/23, 2:06:03 am] Oli: I told myself I will start this new year normally [29/12/23, 2:06:06 am] Oli: But no [29/12/23, 2:06:09 am] Oli: Anyway 🤣 [29/12/23, 2:06:54 am] Oli: Are you still doing things with varying relations etc.? [29/12/23, 2:58:41 am] Sam: Oh god, no, to give a serious response: I just really and seriously have the square root of zero interest in these people or anything they could ever say or do… Sorry, I’m trying, but I just find it all suicidally dull I’m afraid 😬 Aunt’s house is cold because they don’t have money for heating, and she’s stuck paying (cheap, provincial) private school fees for Alla (no actual idea of spelling - Alessanda, who’s from Guatemala) because she’s unhappy at the local school, and then Roman I believe is at home right now because he’s bullied at the local school (for having that slightly pure-and-good-but-clingy-overfriendly temperament that comes from years in a Siberian orphanage — I think psychiatrists call it reactive attachment disorder, which I say merely in case it’s useful for dereferencing). I am indeed doing things with relations - I’m seeing that aunt and uncle and the two kids tomorrow 👍 [29/12/23, 3:03:18 am] Sam: On the bright side, I’ve been having some very interesting chats while here (currently in London) with family! My grandma has been particularly exercised by the issue of maceration of baby chicks in industrial farming. I mentioned it and then she collared me several hours later, having looked into the detail of German and French law on the matter and EU agricultural policy and so forth, and why haven’t we banned it here etc etc. Heartening! [31/12/23, 8:07:32 am] Sam: Answer me, slut [31/12/23, 8:17:01 am] Sam: ‘Can bottom and have done a lot’ - haha I love this [31/12/23, 8:19:58 am] Sam: And that mad cousin Xander gets his way 🫣 [31/12/23, 8:22:02 am] Sam: (Does mad cousin Xander have a nice dick? As mentioned, I find mad cousin Xander maddeningly hot 🤤) [31/12/23, 9:12:07 am] Sam: I like how often in your stories people seemingly just decide to fuck you, no agreement required [31/12/23, 9:15:52 am] Oli: Good morning. You are probably more of one than I! [31/12/23, 9:15:55 am] Oli: Happy New Yr [31/12/23, 9:16:26 am] Oli: Well I don’t know what he does with people but is not as amenable as some are in those ways. [31/12/23, 9:17:45 am] Oli: Surely happens to you. Seems to be a thing common to most. The agreement is probably tacit insofar as no protests to the contrary. But I agree it has been done in odd ways. I don’t think I am alone in this. I find it odd to do things ‘normally’ [31/12/23, 9:17:55 am] Oli: Hence I enjoy this talk here. Maybe same for you! [31/12/23, 9:18:10 am] Oli: Which in particular? [31/12/23, 9:18:16 am] Oli: Exciting [31/12/23, 9:22:39 am] Oli: Did not envisage you in that role! [31/12/23, 9:22:44 am] Oli: It can work [31/12/23, 12:46:23 pm] Sam: Oh dear god I think I was in Mr Hyde mode [31/12/23, 12:46:44 pm] Sam: Not entirely drugs, it’s just the natural ebb and flow of one’s personality from hour to hour, ya know [31/12/23, 12:50:04 pm] Sam: (Also, apropos of that book, I never understood one thing: he takes this potion/medicine/whatever to become Mr Hyde, right? And then finally he runs out of the potion and kills himself because he can’t return to his usual personality? But, like, wait, if the potion is responsible for turning him into Mr Hyde, why then is he not stuck as Dr Jekyll? Is that not what ought to happen??) [31/12/23, 3:10:31 pm] Sam: Also, strictly speaking it might be observed - not without a degree of justice - that you omitted to answer this one…… ‎[1/1/24, 6:39:50 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [1/1/24, 6:39:51 pm] Oli: Happy New Year etc. [1/1/24, 6:39:58 pm] Oli: Shall reply later on [1/1/24, 6:40:05 pm] Oli: HNY 🥂🎉 [1/1/24, 6:40:17 pm] Oli: They were girls. Not Philip 🤣 ‎[1/1/24, 6:43:04 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [1/1/24, 8:10:20 pm] Oli: Getting hair trimmed on 3rd; it has got out of control 🤣 [2/1/24, 4:18:27 am] Sam: Sorry I missed these - boring but cute 😘 [2/1/24, 4:19:00 am] Sam: You need a haircut [2/1/24, 4:20:44 am] Sam: But you’re pretty [2/1/24, 4:20:53 am] Oli: Indeed getting a tonsure [2/1/24, 4:21:01 am] Sam: Candour looks good on you [2/1/24, 4:21:02 am] Oli: Well I am getting a haircut on the 3rd! [2/1/24, 4:22:10 am] Oli: Thank you [2/1/24, 4:22:12 am] Sam: Aw, nice, I’m keen to see the result ;) [2/1/24, 4:22:24 am] Oli: Hope you had a fun celebration [2/1/24, 4:22:25 am] Sam: Where are you rn??? [2/1/24, 4:22:54 am] Oli: Still in this hotel thing LOL on Pulteney St Bath [2/1/24, 4:23:01 am] Oli: I live 20 mins away from it [2/1/24, 4:23:05 am] Oli: Should go back [2/1/24, 4:23:15 am] Oli: It was booked for 2 nights! ‎[2/1/24, 4:23:32 am] Sam: ‎video omitted [2/1/24, 4:23:35 am] Oli: Been fried since deciding t’ see in new year [2/1/24, 4:24:01 am] Oli: Maybe going to Venice to see the loons but undecided as they’re now randomly in Lugano [2/1/24, 4:24:30 am] Sam: Oh god [2/1/24, 4:25:01 am] Sam: Look I like you but I may need to just gently ignore all the braindead troglodyte news (if it can be called news) [2/1/24, 4:26:17 am] Oli: Yes very nice [2/1/24, 4:26:28 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [2/1/24, 4:26:31 am] Sam: I really sincerely like you and nothing else in your life [2/1/24, 4:26:51 am] Sam: 🩵 [2/1/24, 4:27:15 am] Sam: I don’t know where that leaves this but I’m sure there’s a way, lol [2/1/24, 4:27:26 am] Oli: Raaaight [2/1/24, 4:27:34 am] Sam: But I’m not going to come around eventually to shouting about bald people [2/1/24, 4:27:41 am] Oli: 🤣🤣🤣 [2/1/24, 4:27:46 am] Sam: Etc etc ad et post et ultra nauseam [2/1/24, 4:27:56 am] Sam: Ad et per, dammit, brain is gone [2/1/24, 4:28:10 am] Sam: Anyway I like you [2/1/24, 4:28:15 am] Sam: You’re sweet [2/1/24, 4:28:28 am] Sam: And cute in a way I’m starting to see [2/1/24, 4:29:07 am] Sam: But you have been doing some quite drastic classical conditioning [2/1/24, 4:29:12 am] Sam: For the worse [2/1/24, 4:29:18 am] Sam: Which I need to unprogram [2/1/24, 4:29:47 am] Sam: I think you have had the same effect on me that I suspect I have on others (and I get the sense some people more than other people) [2/1/24, 4:29:50 am] Oli: I need to unprogram silly sleeping [2/1/24, 4:29:52 am] Oli: Haha [2/1/24, 4:31:16 am] Sam: Namely that you act like an old person (and then also (semi-separately and semi-inconsistently) like a person who’s had serious neurosurgery performed on him by a badly trained chimpanzee with an ice pick) [2/1/24, 4:31:46 am] Sam: And that doesn’t conduce to sexiness etc [2/1/24, 4:31:52 am] Oli: That’s normal isn’t it [2/1/24, 4:31:56 am] Sam: Which generally correlates with childlikeness [2/1/24, 4:32:16 am] Sam: Even in regular more-or-less-non-paedophiles [2/1/24, 4:32:30 am] Sam: For them in an elliptical sorta way [2/1/24, 4:32:38 am] Sam: No [2/1/24, 4:33:01 am] Sam: Anyway no ok I find you cute and alluring [2/1/24, 4:33:31 am] Sam: I just need to fashion myself some blinkers or something to block out the rest of your life ‎[2/1/24, 4:33:39 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [2/1/24, 4:33:40 am] Sam: And friends [2/1/24, 4:33:45 am] Sam: Whom I never ever want to meet ‎[2/1/24, 4:33:57 am] Oli: ‎sticker omitted [2/1/24, 4:34:47 am] Oli: Laughing ‎[2/1/24, 4:34:50 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [2/1/24, 4:35:18 am] Sam: But I like you [2/1/24, 4:35:48 am] Sam: Anyway [2/1/24, 4:36:07 am] Oli: Falling in and out of sleep amazingly [2/1/24, 4:36:30 am] Sam: Go to sleep [2/1/24, 4:36:36 am] Sam: Dors bien [2/1/24, 4:36:41 am] Oli: Maybe you will too! [2/1/24, 4:36:42 am] Oli: 🤣 [2/1/24, 4:37:11 am] Oli: Good idea [2/1/24, 4:37:19 am] Sam: Sleep? Maybe! I did quite recently [2/1/24, 4:37:48 am] Sam: Also, word of advice from Wittgenstein ‎[2/1/24, 4:38:15 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [2/1/24, 4:38:53 am] Sam: This time meaning not important life claims but bad habits of constant unserious/insincere talk and supposed jokes etc ‎ [2/1/24, 4:39:27 am] Sam: But meh [2/1/24, 4:39:37 am] Sam: One takes one’s victim as one finds him [2/1/24, 4:41:07 am] Sam: Anyway I like you and I want to see you [2/1/24, 4:42:25 am] Sam: And I think we understand each other quite ‘deeply’ in a way that means you have a kinda powerful hold on me [2/1/24, 4:43:21 am] Sam: Maybe you don’t entirely understand me (and surely vice versa) but you understand more of me than I’m used to from other people [2/1/24, 4:48:50 am] Sam: And I’m drawn to your obvious torment and todestrieb and occasional compassion and indignation and anger [2/1/24, 4:52:55 am] Sam: And I get the sense that you’re quite deeply in like or love with me (that’s a terribly arrogant-sounding thing to say, I know) and I don’t know quite what to make of you, of who you really are as a human being [2/1/24, 5:00:47 am] Sam: I really really do like everything I’ve seen that hasn’t been this drivel about either (1) tonsures etc (saying an unfunny thing with ‘funny’ intonation does not make it a joke), or (2) (this being a subtly different personality schema) your ancestors or the ancestors or schooling or surname of some other person with whom you went for lunch or dinner in the last 6-10 days [2/1/24, 5:03:01 am] Sam: I can promise you now that I am 98% sure that if I go off you, it will be because you are insufficiently sincere/unguarded/open/honest and not because you’re excessively sincere/etc and I end up disliking who you really are (I promise you I can hardly like it any less than this act) ‎[2/1/24, 5:05:19 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [2/1/24, 5:05:48 am] Sam: Really and sincerely I like that Oli so so much [2/1/24, 5:22:01 am] Sam: God [2/1/24, 5:22:27 am] Sam: Ffs I have an actual crush on you [2/1/24, 5:23:58 am] Sam: Please be that sweet boy I sometimes see xxoo [2/1/24, 5:52:47 am] Sam: I also want you as a bottom. Sorry. I think you genuinely don’t like it, maybe because you were raped and you see it as shameful. Oh well. It’s what you are. [2/1/24, 6:06:51 am] Sam: You know, the Slape chat was sorta cute in hindsight, just 98% me and you, with Damien occasionally popping in. I remember Alex asking me one time if I had feelings for you. I didn’t. Dammit, I do now. [2/1/24, 11:52:47 am] Sam: Ffs aargh [2/1/24, 11:52:52 am] Sam: Scratch that stuff temporarily [2/1/24, 11:53:00 am] Oli: Good morning [2/1/24, 11:53:02 am] Sam: Damien’s friend Martin has just killed himself [2/1/24, 11:53:06 am] Oli: Oh dear [2/1/24, 11:53:08 am] Sam: For FUCK’s sake [2/1/24, 11:53:11 am] Sam: Aargh [2/1/24, 11:53:12 am] Sam: Horrid ‎[2/1/24, 11:53:25 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [2/1/24, 11:53:27 am] Oli: I remember Martin met him a few times [2/1/24, 11:54:14 am] Sam: Yeah I only really met him a few times myself (albeit the most recent 2 out of 3 were a week or so apiece, this year, his visits) [2/1/24, 11:54:15 am] Oli: Very nasty situation [2/1/24, 11:54:30 am] Sam: And there was a fourth time but that time I was dead myself so not sure it counts [2/1/24, 11:54:44 am] Sam: (I.e. he came to that party) [2/1/24, 11:54:52 am] Sam: But fucking horrible [2/1/24, 11:54:55 am] Sam: Poor guy [2/1/24, 11:55:08 am] Sam: I’m sure I’ll find insensitive texts about him that I’ll beat myself up over (and very rightly) [2/1/24, 11:55:34 am] Sam: And snapping at him the evening before he left (if he even registered my snark, which probably and hopefully he didn’t) [2/1/24, 11:55:57 am] Sam: I found out because Alex apparently texted Damien to say that I had told him (Alex) that Damien had given Martin drugs [2/1/24, 11:56:30 am] Sam: Clearly Alex is angry at me for some reason (I suspect because of my admittedly very rude text a month or so ago to ask if he had any meth after ignoring his previous friendly/news-update-y text) [2/1/24, 11:57:23 am] Sam: And it’s not entirely untrue but I think his wording suggested that I’d stated it as fact / something I witnessed, when it was really one offhand text mentioning it as a hypothesis (tho clearly coloured by some spite over whatever I was angry at Damien for at that point) [2/1/24, 11:57:33 am] Sam: Anyway I managed to miss the suicide bit [2/1/24, 11:57:51 am] Sam: And replied to Damien at length to exonerate myself (/also to reassure him, to be fair to myself) [2/1/24, 11:57:55 am] Sam: Then caught the word ‘suicide’ ‎[2/1/24, 11:58:15 am] Sam: ‎image omitted [2/1/24, 11:58:22 am] Sam: Horrific [2/1/24, 11:58:26 am] Sam: God this is depressing [2/1/24, 11:58:29 am] Sam: Poor fucking Martin [2/1/24, 12:04:45 pm] Oli: Very sad. At least somehow he may be at peace now [2/1/24, 12:05:36 pm] Oli: And people who knew him can remember the best bits about him [2/1/24, 12:05:40 pm] Oli: Horrible [2/1/24, 12:08:31 pm] Oli: In those times it is very easy to live in the moment. [2/1/24, 12:08:50 pm] Oli: Times or situations ‎[2/1/24, 12:10:08 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [2/1/24, 12:10:54 pm] Sam: An oddly peaceful note for him to leave on (albeit four months or so before his death - but nevertheless) [2/1/24, 12:11:20 pm] Oli: Yes very amicable ending [2/1/24, 12:11:40 pm] Oli: At least you can rest assured knowing that it was forgiven [2/1/24, 12:11:45 pm] Sam: And just quite … sorta zen, happy, somehow [2/1/24, 12:12:01 pm] Sam: In a strange and not exactly literal way [2/1/24, 12:12:18 pm] Sam: But it’s a nice note to end on, in some way that I can’t articulate [2/1/24, 12:12:42 pm] Sam: But Jesus fucking Christ it’s horrible [2/1/24, 12:13:06 pm] Sam: However annoying he may have been, it can’t have been nearly as bad for me, even for Damien, as it must have been for him [2/1/24, 12:13:19 pm] Sam: Unimaginable [2/1/24, 12:13:27 pm] Sam: It really fucks with my head [2/1/24, 12:14:09 pm] Sam: I remember meeting him back in 2018 (this theory is underdetermined but on a ‘casual logic’ basis I feel quite sure he didn’t have it then, or that it was ‘latent’ or whatever conceptual nonsense we say) [2/1/24, 12:14:17 pm] Sam: And he was such a lovely guy [2/1/24, 12:14:32 pm] Sam: Then slightly more strange on his first visit to Bond St, and then mad on his second [2/1/24, 12:14:48 pm] Oli: I never thought into it that much but he was always quite vacant in a way [2/1/24, 12:15:05 pm] Sam: When did you first meet him? [2/1/24, 12:15:16 pm] Oli: I think 2017 [2/1/24, 12:15:20 pm] Sam: ‘Vacant’ is apt for this year but not 2018 as far as I recall [2/1/24, 12:15:41 pm] Sam: Oh well maybe he was, but, if it struck me then, I at least certainly don’t remember it now [2/1/24, 12:16:04 pm] Sam: I’m inclined to date it to after 2018, tho I may be wrong [2/1/24, 12:16:21 pm] Sam: I think Damien saw him at one point in between when he mentioned he had bipolar [2/1/24, 12:16:45 pm] Sam: (And quite a thing to omit until that date if it was true till then, given they had been at university together and already graduated by that point) [2/1/24, 12:17:33 pm] Sam: And I discussed it with my mum back then, months ago, and she did say bipolar was quite a common differential diagnosis for schizophrenia - that it was a plausible, unsurprising mistake [2/1/24, 12:17:50 pm] Sam: (I’d never have thought so, but I guess for certain variants of each, maybe) [2/1/24, 12:18:11 pm] Sam: She also mentioned that the outlook is much more bleak for people who are diagnosed before adulthood (just as a rule of thumb) [2/1/24, 12:18:19 pm] Sam: And for Martin it can’t have been that long after 18 at most [2/1/24, 12:18:51 pm] Sam: And with lazy parents who almost certainly wouldn’t have taken him to a doctor even if he killed all his other extant family members with an axe… [2/1/24, 12:19:08 pm] Sam: It reminds me of this actually ‎[2/1/24, 12:19:12 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [2/1/24, 12:19:17 pm] Sam: God, can you imagine ‎[2/1/24, 12:19:20 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [2/1/24, 12:19:23 pm] Sam: It breaks my heart, the whole thing [2/1/24, 12:19:25 pm] Oli: From his mothe r [2/1/24, 12:19:46 pm] Oli: Mother or sister I don’t know but presume mother [2/1/24, 12:19:57 pm] Oli: Or maybe friend [2/1/24, 12:20:02 pm] Oli: Sorry it’s not the same name as him [2/1/24, 12:20:03 pm] Sam: I find that quite a strange post somehow, but maybe I’m just a bit ill disposed towards his parents, who knows [2/1/24, 12:20:11 pm] Oli: I thought it said Kirilova [2/1/24, 12:20:14 pm] Sam: Maybe mother - Damien would know [2/1/24, 12:20:17 pm] Oli: Don’t know if that’s his mother or not [2/1/24, 12:20:19 pm] Sam: Common for Slavic names I think [2/1/24, 12:20:19 pm] Oli: Yes [2/1/24, 12:20:26 pm] Sam: Feminine surname ending for women [2/1/24, 12:20:38 pm] Oli: Yes she’s Markova [2/1/24, 12:20:40 pm] Sam: Oh wait I see [2/1/24, 12:20:41 pm] Sam: Yeah [2/1/24, 12:20:43 pm] Oli: Maybe miter [2/1/24, 12:20:44 pm] Oli: Mother [2/1/24, 12:20:46 pm] Oli: Who knows [2/1/24, 12:20:52 pm] Sam: Maybe a different patronymic for her dad [2/1/24, 12:20:59 pm] Sam: Not exactly sure of how Bulgarian names work [2/1/24, 12:21:10 pm] Sam: Thought Kirilov was a family name but it does sound like a patronymic tbf [2/1/24, 12:21:26 pm] Sam: You could check for a Kiril who should be his dad if so (but no way to deduce his surname/patronymic) [2/1/24, 12:21:36 pm] Sam: (=Cyril) [2/1/24, 12:22:34 pm] Sam: Eg Phil (tho Russian) is Phil Konstantinovich [Kagalovsky], and his dad Konstantin will be Konstantin Hisowndadovich [Kagalovsky], etc [2/1/24, 12:24:00 pm] Oli: Yes the Russians have it as a middle name I think [2/1/24, 12:24:18 pm] Oli: It’s very sad [2/1/24, 12:24:30 pm] Oli: And there are too many in similar situations ‎[2/1/24, 12:24:32 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted ‎[2/1/24, 12:24:33 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [2/1/24, 12:24:42 pm] Sam: Far too many [2/1/24, 12:25:06 pm] Sam: Cracks wider than canyons at this point [2/1/24, 12:25:57 pm] Oli: Yes what’s unusually odd is the amount of people it’s happened to this year that I knew or who were in similar circles [2/1/24, 12:26:09 pm] Oli: We usually ignore it if it’s not somehow linked [2/1/24, 12:26:35 pm] Oli: And then one realises how widespread this problem seems [2/1/24, 12:27:35 pm] Sam: I strongly suspect that New Year’s Eve/Day is a hot time for suicides, for one [2/1/24, 12:27:45 pm] Oli: I was thinking that [2/1/24, 12:28:03 pm] Sam: But also interesting that both Rupert and Martin were not poor and not deprived etc, but had parents who just didn’t seem bothered enough to keep them alive [2/1/24, 12:28:29 pm] Sam: (Rupert’s parents especially revolt me, from everything I’ve seen, while Martin’s parents I still have a tiny reserve of ‘maybe I’m wrong’) [2/1/24, 12:28:46 pm] Sam: ((Sorry for bad or absent grammar at the end there)) [2/1/24, 12:31:16 pm] Sam: Oh, of all the red flags [2/1/24, 12:31:26 pm] Sam: (…just so you know…) [2/1/24, 12:33:10 pm] Sam: (…the first two being ‘visual hallucinations’ and ‘symptoms/diagnosis before 18’, and then a bonus is-he-gonna-kill-_me_-in-particular red flag being ‘I figure in his delusions in some way’…) [2/1/24, 12:33:23 pm] Sam: The biggest by far is: command hallucinations [2/1/24, 12:34:02 pm] Sam: I.e. not just e.g. people talking about you, but actually bidding you ‘do xyz’ (stereotypically ‘kill such-and-such person’, lol) ‎ [2/1/24, 12:34:24 pm] Sam: That one is a screaming double black diamond flag with marshmallows on top [2/1/24, 12:34:46 pm] Sam: Just in case that’s ever a handy piece of info [2/1/24, 12:35:23 pm] Sam: Quite possibly because of me before long….. [2/1/24, 2:25:09 pm] Sam: Oliver [2/1/24, 2:25:27 pm] Sam: Some cute photos may be in order [2/1/24, 2:25:51 pm] Sam: Or, failing that, not-cute photos [2/1/24, 2:25:54 pm] Sam: Any photos [2/1/24, 2:26:17 pm] Sam: Not NSFW photos because I’m in mourning [2/1/24, 2:26:27 pm] Sam: Xoxo [2/1/24, 2:26:43 pm] Sam: Lusms [2/1/24, 3:46:44 pm] Sam: Oliver [2/1/24, 3:47:11 pm] Sam: Oliver Basildon-Williams [2/1/24, 3:47:57 pm] Sam: (The hyphen is pronounced) [2/1/24, 3:48:25 pm] Sam: Talk to me [2/1/24, 4:44:05 pm] Sam: Oliver Backgammon-Willward [2/1/24, 4:44:11 pm] Sam: I miss you [2/1/24, 4:46:01 pm] Sam: Where are you? If I’m to adopt you as my boyfriend I need your constant attention and support [2/1/24, 4:47:07 pm] Sam: (I’m kidding, I’m just getting a frisson out of saying your name(s), don’t take any of this seriously and reply whenever you fancy :)) [4/1/24, 12:00:02 am] Oli: Going to Venice on Freitag [4/1/24, 12:00:14 am] Oli: Must send some x [4/1/24, 12:00:19 am] Oli: Are you OK? [4/1/24, 12:00:33 am] Oli: Hello [4/1/24, 12:00:37 am] Oli: ‎This message was deleted. [4/1/24, 12:00:42 am] Oli: ❤️ [4/1/24, 7:12:43 am] Sam: Yes [4/1/24, 7:13:36 am] Sam: Oliver [4/1/24, 7:14:46 am] Sam: Ugh [4/1/24, 7:15:10 am] Sam: The Canonbury of the south [4/1/24, 7:15:31 am] Sam: When r u back ? [4/1/24, 10:20:20 pm] Oli: Tuesday unless it goes mad and stay on [4/1/24, 10:20:23 pm] Oli: Damien might come [4/1/24, 10:20:33 pm] Oli: He is in Zurich with some funny person [4/1/24, 10:20:43 pm] Oli: Seems it will be a loony gathering anyway what fun madness [4/1/24, 10:20:59 pm] Oli: Maybe you will fly out randomly [4/1/24, 10:21:02 pm] Oli: Total control for you [4/1/24, 10:21:08 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 [4/1/24, 10:21:19 pm] Oli: La Serenissima. The Birmingham of the South. [4/1/24, 10:21:29 pm] Oli: Or is Birmingham the Venice of tge North [4/1/24, 10:21:38 pm] Oli: Good [4/1/24, 10:23:26 pm] Sam: Uh, will anything interesting be happening? Haha [4/1/24, 10:23:34 pm] Oli: Orgy in the room [4/1/24, 10:23:42 pm] Oli: Straights and poufs [4/1/24, 10:23:47 pm] Sam: Interesting not in the Chinese sense [4/1/24, 10:23:52 pm] Oli: 🤣 [4/1/24, 10:24:01 pm] Oli: Don’t know this but it seemed to last time [4/1/24, 10:24:14 pm] Oli: The blond Italian seems to have got an American girl pregnant [4/1/24, 10:24:19 pm] Oli: But keeps showing his cock on FaceTime [4/1/24, 10:24:23 pm] Oli: So not sure he’s coming [4/1/24, 10:24:25 pm] Oli: But his brother is [4/1/24, 10:24:35 pm] Oli: And some girl from London coming on Sat [4/1/24, 10:24:49 pm] Oli: Cuffed and buggered [4/1/24, 10:24:55 pm] Oli: Mr Firsov presiding over the ceremony [4/1/24, 10:25:02 pm] Oli: Also 6th Jan orthodox Christmas celebration it seems [4/1/24, 10:25:28 pm] Sam: To the extent that this is the matter of your life, I don’t really have any interest in it nor ever will I, and I think maybe this recent turn in our conversation was a bit of a mistake [4/1/24, 10:25:45 pm] Sam: I feel a bit bleak and despondent just reading about it [4/1/24, 10:25:52 pm] Oli: I am somewhat apprehensive about so many filling up a room [4/1/24, 10:25:58 pm] Oli: But also find it amusing [4/1/24, 10:26:06 pm] Oli: I wonder if as many who say they’ll turn up will [4/1/24, 10:26:11 pm] Sam: I don’t find it amusing [4/1/24, 10:26:16 pm] Oli: Queen Victoria [4/1/24, 10:26:16 pm] Sam: I struggle to find it anything whatsoever [4/1/24, 10:26:26 pm] Sam: To be perfectly candid [4/1/24, 10:26:27 pm] Sam: Sorry [4/1/24, 10:26:33 pm] Oli: Good idea [4/1/24, 10:26:38 pm] Sam: Dunno what to say to any of it [4/1/24, 10:26:49 pm] Oli: Haha that is probably a good reaction [4/1/24, 10:27:07 pm] Sam: I mean, I’m happy to occupy some of the rest of your life [4/1/24, 10:28:04 pm] Sam: But any of this I have no interest in, and even the ‘separate parts of life’ solution is probably less than workable because I find the above-mentioned part offensively stupid even from afar [4/1/24, 10:28:12 pm] Sam: Aargh [4/1/24, 10:28:26 pm] Sam: Ok let me do something else for a while and gather my or someone else’s or just some thoughts [4/1/24, 10:28:38 pm] Oli: Haha don’t worry [4/1/24, 10:28:41 pm] Oli: It’s not that big [4/1/24, 10:28:44 pm] Oli: Just a holiday 🤣 [4/1/24, 10:28:57 pm] Oli: LOL [4/1/24, 10:28:58 pm] Oli: Goodness [4/1/24, 10:29:19 pm] Oli: Well I half agree but also do find such ridiculousness funny [4/1/24, 10:29:35 pm] Sam: What is funny about it? [4/1/24, 10:29:51 pm] Oli: The general lack of organisation and unconventionality [4/1/24, 10:29:53 pm] Oli: It’s just mad [4/1/24, 10:30:28 pm] Sam: I don’t know that I’d call that _funny_ [4/1/24, 10:30:40 pm] Oli: Haha yes you seem in that respect to be very conventional [4/1/24, 10:30:48 pm] Oli: It’s slightly Krautish [4/1/24, 10:30:57 pm] Oli: Only met a few Brits with that determined attitude ‎[4/1/24, 10:31:18 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/1/24, 10:31:57 pm] Oli: Lol that sounds a bit different too [4/1/24, 10:32:06 pm] Oli: Think even those would somehow find some of this odd [4/1/24, 10:32:17 pm] Oli: But… [4/1/24, 10:32:19 pm] Oli: 🤣🤣 [4/1/24, 10:32:24 pm] Oli: Duckton [4/1/24, 10:32:44 pm] Oli: Human 🤣 [4/1/24, 10:33:39 pm] Sam: I know humour is subjective, a matter of taste, whatever you’d call it, but it’s not just an infinitely large fig leaf under which one can smuggle truckloads of base motives [4/1/24, 10:33:51 pm] Oli: I agree with that [4/1/24, 10:33:54 pm] Sam: Yes I don’t think I finished the book! ‎[4/1/24, 10:34:30 pm] Oli: ‎video omitted [4/1/24, 10:34:33 pm] Oli: Last Venice sesh [4/1/24, 10:34:44 pm] Oli: Many have reacted ‘love’ to this [4/1/24, 10:34:52 pm] Oli: Haha I’m sure that bit isn’t your thing at all [4/1/24, 10:35:18 pm] Oli: One of t’ women is a Jew [4/1/24, 10:35:22 pm] Oli: Franchetti [4/1/24, 10:35:24 pm] Sam: I just … do not and never will have even the slightest iota of interest in this, and I am genuinely not sure about your theory of mind in sending this to me [4/1/24, 10:35:25 pm] Oli: She laughed at 🥸 jokes [4/1/24, 10:35:30 pm] Oli: But I agree it’s not amusing to some [4/1/24, 10:35:56 pm] Oli: Not sure I’m just vacant ag the moment [4/1/24, 10:35:57 pm] Oli: At [4/1/24, 10:36:00 pm] Oli: Packing things [4/1/24, 10:36:08 pm] Sam: Ok good thank god [4/1/24, 10:36:16 pm] Sam: We agree on that [4/1/24, 10:36:21 pm] Sam: I’m glad this is a deficient state [4/1/24, 10:36:28 pm] Oli: 🤣 [4/1/24, 10:37:18 pm] Oli: Total control for them [4/1/24, 10:37:27 pm] Sam: I don’t care if you want to waste your life in the privacy of your own bedroom, but I just really am starting to feel like I’ve said 100 times that I’m not going to eventually come around to this dross and I am not nearly convinced that you have understood and believe it [4/1/24, 10:37:50 pm] Sam: Sorry, I’m not angry - that sounds a bit angrier than I intended [4/1/24, 10:37:58 pm] Sam: But I just am trying to emphasise this [4/1/24, 10:39:19 pm] Oli: Yes I think I sometimes loosely forget your mental state etc and get familiar which at the moment extends any state I’m in [4/1/24, 10:40:26 pm] Sam: Ah here’s the final version, as of Aug 2023: ‎[4/1/24, 10:40:31 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/1/24, 10:42:06 pm] Sam: Yes, it’s a terrible sort of state to be burdened with! [4/1/24, 10:42:32 pm] Oli: Graf v. Lettuce [4/1/24, 10:42:53 pm] Oli: Hahn [4/1/24, 10:42:54 pm] Oli: Farm [4/1/24, 10:42:55 pm] Oli: Good idea [4/1/24, 10:42:57 pm] Sam: Sorry, I’m trying to be kind, I just … well, my frank opinion of this nonsense is not a kind one [4/1/24, 10:43:11 pm] Oli: I sometimes think the same for the contrary [4/1/24, 10:43:14 pm] Oli: But it’s horses for courses [4/1/24, 10:43:22 pm] Oli: That is acceptable [4/1/24, 10:43:25 pm] Oli: I am not offended [4/1/24, 10:54:20 pm] Sam: I just don’t … I will never have the capacity - as a concession to politeness I’ll call it a capacity - to react to that sort of rubbish in any way but this [4/1/24, 10:55:05 pm] Sam: And I’m very glad of that [4/1/24, 10:56:03 pm] Sam: And after a while I start to wonder why exactly you put yourself (and me) through this [4/1/24, 10:57:15 pm] Sam: I really can’t say it any more times or in any more ways [4/1/24, 11:00:08 pm] Sam: Either you expect I’ll eventually come around to this boring, miserable, pig-like way of living, or you just keep forgetting, like, the basic fundaments of who I am (which I think I’ve been crystal clear about at every single opportunity, or point of need) [4/1/24, 11:00:30 pm] Sam: I feel like tearing my hair out [4/1/24, 11:00:34 pm] Sam: I know I approached you [4/1/24, 11:00:54 pm] Sam: But I had some inkling that there might be something more to you than this idiocy [4/1/24, 11:01:02 pm] Sam: And perhaps there’s not [4/1/24, 11:01:09 pm] Sam: God [4/1/24, 11:04:00 pm] Oli: 🪪 [4/1/24, 11:04:05 pm] Oli: 👴🏻 [4/1/24, 11:04:09 pm] Oli: Meant to send that emoji [4/1/24, 11:05:08 pm] Sam: I don’t consider it very respectful of my time to keep ignoring what I say [4/1/24, 11:05:30 pm] Oli: You are probably right [4/1/24, 11:06:20 pm] Sam: If this is all you’re going to say and do, then please don’t lead me up the garden path [4/1/24, 11:06:40 pm] Oli: I don’t think it is what I plan to do [4/1/24, 11:06:44 pm] Oli: But maybe it’s total control for me [4/1/24, 11:06:48 pm] Sam: I have said it way more than the factorial of enough times [4/1/24, 11:07:05 pm] Oli: Sometimes it doesn’t feel like putting myself through anything and I find it fun [4/1/24, 11:07:08 pm] Oli: We must differ there [4/1/24, 11:07:38 pm] Oli: Though I don’t think the way I phrased the Venice holiday is at all that bad in comparison to some other things [4/1/24, 11:08:43 pm] Sam: It’s more than I can really bear listening to while people are having their eyeballs pulled out [4/1/24, 11:09:59 pm] Sam: And not because it’s luxurious (indeed that’s not quite what I understand luxury to mean) but because it’s completely and utterly fatuous mongoloid pig-in-mud drivel [4/1/24, 11:10:15 pm] Sam: And drivellous action [4/1/24, 11:10:21 pm] Oli: Love the word mongoloid that’s brilliant [4/1/24, 11:10:23 pm] Oli: My mother used it [4/1/24, 11:10:33 pm] Oli: Her sister in law told her to stop using it because it’s not the 80s [4/1/24, 11:10:41 pm] Sam: Yes, I have a mongoloid late brother [4/1/24, 11:10:51 pm] Sam: Unvisited in a children’s cemetery somewhere outside London [4/1/24, 11:10:51 pm] Oli: Firsov has a mong sister who is alive [4/1/24, 11:10:57 pm] Oli: Who his family got rid of [4/1/24, 11:10:58 pm] Oli: Disowned [4/1/24, 11:10:59 pm] Sam: (Never born, not properly) [4/1/24, 11:11:01 pm] Oli: It is sad [4/1/24, 11:11:20 pm] Sam: And yet that miscarried Down syndrome brother would cringe to read this inanity [4/1/24, 11:11:33 pm] Oli: He may well do but we’d do well not to assume other people’s minds [4/1/24, 11:11:39 pm] Oli: It deprives then of autonomy [4/1/24, 11:11:45 pm] Oli: We are prone to project ourselves onto others [4/1/24, 11:12:08 pm] Sam: I don’t assume the existence of any such thing [4/1/24, 11:12:22 pm] Oli: Ah you’d do well in that philosophy module about other minds [4/1/24, 11:12:44 pm] Sam: But no, I’m tired of this occasional philosophy bollocks being hauled out to justify wasting your life [4/1/24, 11:12:57 pm] Oli: It was just in reply t’ this! [4/1/24, 11:13:05 pm] Sam: It doesn’t convince me, I severely doubt it convinces you, and so I’m at a loss to see the point of it [4/1/24, 11:13:27 pm] Oli: But also I suppose we must all have varying beliefs about life [4/1/24, 11:13:30 pm] Oli: Which are constantly changing t [4/1/24, 11:13:39 pm] Sam: God I find this so boring [4/1/24, 11:13:43 pm] Sam: I really do [4/1/24, 11:13:52 pm] Oli: I know! [4/1/24, 11:13:52 pm] Sam: I see the pattern now, and it just bores me [4/1/24, 11:14:03 pm] Oli: Though I sort of conceive of you as a disapproving headmaster in an office [4/1/24, 11:14:07 pm] Oli: What else to talk about [4/1/24, 11:14:30 pm] Sam: Spend your life on rubbish, and wheel out some hand-waving pseudo-profundities and promises of future psychological growth when challenged about it [4/1/24, 11:14:41 pm] Oli: Probably right [4/1/24, 11:14:49 pm] Oli: It is sad I agree [4/1/24, 11:14:53 pm] Oli: Well can be [4/1/24, 11:15:00 pm] Sam: Yes, and I’d sooner not be [4/1/24, 11:15:00 pm] Oli: Just a microcosm of many lives [4/1/24, 11:15:19 pm] Sam: And right now the best route to that - as far as I can see - is to stop talking to you [4/1/24, 11:15:29 pm] Oli: So you’re applying total control [4/1/24, 11:15:31 pm] Oli: Goodness! [4/1/24, 11:15:43 pm] Oli: Well we can play it by ear [4/1/24, 11:15:50 pm] Oli: But whichever you fancy I can’t argue with [4/1/24, 11:16:04 pm] Sam: I have tried and tried and tried, in recognition of the fact that you seem to have some sort of feelings for me, and I genuinely felt protective of that (and I don’t mean that in any condescending way) [4/1/24, 11:16:32 pm] Sam: And then any attempt to have any kind of conversation ends up in this drivel [4/1/24, 11:16:51 pm] Oli: Yes you are a nice in some ways innocent soul on the surface and deep down when one skirts past some things [4/1/24, 11:16:53 pm] Oli: Which I like [4/1/24, 11:17:02 pm] Sam: Which I find frankly rude and disrespectful of my time and effort [4/1/24, 11:17:10 pm] Oli: I wonder have we tried to have a proper conversation! [4/1/24, 11:17:19 pm] Oli: Maybe we’ve always been on the wrong foot [4/1/24, 11:17:39 pm] Sam: God, ok, I give up [4/1/24, 11:17:48 pm] Sam: I’m not going to block you, but I’m too bored of this for now [4/1/24, 11:18:10 pm] Sam: I’m done - I gave it my best, I’m not putting myself through this forever [4/1/24, 11:19:01 pm] Sam: I think I gave you a fair and sincere chance and attempt at some kind of relationship, and you’ve consistently wasted my time [4/1/24, 11:20:21 pm] Oli: I am sorry if you feel that way [4/1/24, 11:20:27 pm] Oli: Never intentionally wasted your time! [4/1/24, 11:20:38 pm] Oli: Maybe I just have a habit of doing that [4/1/24, 11:21:02 pm] Oli: Or rather some of my attitudes are not approved of by overly conventional strait-laced do gooders [4/1/24, 11:21:04 pm] Oli: I can’t disagree [4/1/24, 11:21:54 pm] Sam: If you seriously think this is your problem, you need glasses [4/1/24, 11:22:05 pm] Oli: Specsavers [4/1/24, 11:22:16 pm] Sam: You do not do anything of any interest whatsoever - good and bad are not the standard in question here [4/1/24, 11:22:30 pm] Oli: That is subjective I’d say [4/1/24, 11:22:43 pm] Sam: Yes, well, I’m a subject and so are you [4/1/24, 11:22:49 pm] Oli: Of Carolus Rex [4/1/24, 11:22:51 pm] Oli: Tonsured prole [4/1/24, 11:22:56 pm] Oli: But yes [4/1/24, 11:23:13 pm] Oli: So I think subjective [4/1/24, 11:23:16 pm] Sam: What is the point of this nonsense? [4/1/24, 11:23:17 pm] Oli: And we can’t get around that [4/1/24, 11:23:20 pm] Oli: No point [4/1/24, 11:23:25 pm] Oli: The point is there’s no point [4/1/24, 11:23:42 pm] Sam: I shall leave you to talk a pointless way to a nameless grave [4/1/24, 11:23:53 pm] Oli: Going t talk to some named graves soon [4/1/24, 11:23:55 pm] Oli: Good idea [4/1/24, 11:24:03 pm] Oli: Nameless also symbolic [4/1/24, 11:24:05 pm] Oli: Unknown soldier [4/1/24, 11:26:09 pm] Sam: If you have any even withered vestigial sense, I won’t need to comment on this ridiculous message [4/1/24, 11:26:38 pm] Sam: I have been quite decent to you and I am fed up of this, to be frank [4/1/24, 11:26:39 pm] Oli: Yea that was hyperbolic [4/1/24, 11:26:40 pm] Oli: Yes [4/1/24, 11:26:56 pm] Oli: I respect your views! [4/1/24, 11:27:04 pm] Oli: Can’t say anything else [4/1/24, 11:27:25 pm] Sam: You owe me considerably more than this petulant nonsense [4/1/24, 11:28:15 pm] Sam: And I am sick to death of listening to this [4/1/24, 11:28:41 pm] Oli: Think you need to be bent over and buggered [4/1/24, 11:28:44 pm] Oli: For your own safety [4/1/24, 11:28:55 pm] Oli: Punishment [4/1/24, 11:29:15 pm] Sam: Is this how you plan to spend your life, acting like a whinging child with two jokes? [4/1/24, 11:29:25 pm] Oli: Yeeop [4/1/24, 11:29:32 pm] Oli: Haha in all seriousness I hope not [4/1/24, 11:29:38 pm] Oli: But lives have many turns of events [4/1/24, 11:29:47 pm] Sam: What the fuck is this dismal brace of tics? ‎[4/1/24, 11:30:13 pm] Oli: ‎image omitted [4/1/24, 11:30:13 pm] Oli: When I was totally controlled I told the copper ‘yeeop’ and the idiot thought I said ‘yep’ [4/1/24, 11:31:39 pm] Sam: I mean, for Christ’s sake, I have invested considerable time in this conversation, and I am sick to death of having my time wasted on your stupid jokes that you and your moron friends think are funny [4/1/24, 11:32:26 pm] Sam: It’s the most pathetic thing I’ve seen in a long time and a strong field [4/1/24, 11:33:18 pm] Sam: If you want to carry on with it indefinitely and waste more or all of your life - I’m not sure which is the worse prospect - then fuck it, be my guest, I give up on trying to find any kind of value in you [4/1/24, 11:34:42 pm] Sam: I have again been fooled by some shallow Chat-GPT simulation, it would seem [4/1/24, 11:35:10 pm] Oli: Goodness [4/1/24, 11:35:29 pm] Oli: Well I am a believer in the idea that eventually things come right for people [4/1/24, 11:35:34 pm] Oli: Either they do or it ends oddly [4/1/24, 11:35:35 pm] Oli: Let’s hope [4/1/24, 11:35:44 pm] Oli: Hopefully things come right for you tooN ‎[4/1/24, 11:36:12 pm] Sam: ‎image omitted [4/1/24, 11:36:53 pm] Oli: Yes he is Zurich now [4/1/24, 11:37:00 pm] Oli: Says he may come down with some funny people to Venice [4/1/24, 11:37:02 pm] Oli: Who knows [4/1/24, 11:37:27 pm] Sam: I’m disappointed to have allowed more of my time to be wasted, and I’m pissed off at you for wasting it [4/1/24, 11:37:45 pm] Oli: I do in all seriousness think perhaps you are overly serious and perhaps I am the opposite [4/1/24, 11:37:48 pm] Oli: For whatever reason [4/1/24, 11:37:53 pm] Sam: I couldn’t care less what you do with the rest of your days on earth and I wish you whatever with it [4/1/24, 11:38:05 pm] Oli: And it riles you. I have met a few who are like churchwardens jn that respect [4/1/24, 11:38:07 pm] Oli: But yes [4/1/24, 11:39:31 pm] Sam: It is not funny, it is not clever, it is not bad, it is not good, it is not of any interest whatever and it will be forgotten as soon as you and they are, to wit after however much time your embarrassed mothers survive you by [4/1/24, 11:39:31 pm] Oli: You do laugh sometimes [4/1/24, 11:39:34 pm] Oli: I don’t understand really [4/1/24, 11:40:11 pm] Oli: It shocks me how angered you get sometimes! [4/1/24, 11:40:17 pm] Sam: And I am not even trying to be cruel here, I am just tired unto death [4/1/24, 11:40:33 pm] Sam: Christ [4/1/24, 11:40:58 pm] Sam: I am exhausted and fed up of trying to find anything of interest in you [4/1/24, 11:41:09 pm] Sam: And I don’t know why I’ve persisted so long [4/1/24, 11:41:24 pm] Oli: We are often unable to understand ourselves [4/1/24, 11:41:35 pm] Sam: Another fuckin gem [4/1/24, 11:41:36 pm] Oli: But there are natural things overriding us I think [4/1/24, 11:41:40 pm] Sam: Christ [4/1/24, 11:41:45 pm] Sam: Christ almighty [4/1/24, 11:41:51 pm] Sam: Good god [4/1/24, 11:41:55 pm] Sam: Eugh [4/1/24, 11:41:55 pm] Oli: Almaty, Kazakhstan [4/1/24, 11:41:57 pm] Sam: Satis [4/1/24, 11:42:01 pm] Oli: My grandmother was called Almasy [4/1/24, 11:42:03 pm] Oli: Alrighty [4/1/24, 11:42:04 pm] Oli: Raaigh [4/1/24, 11:42:13 pm] Oli: ‎You blocked this contact